In this episode of the Inclusive Growth Show, I was joined by Kim Hoque who is one of the founders of the Disability Charter. Kim talked to me about what the Disability Charter is and why it was established. We also discovered how it can help organisations become great employers of disabled people.
We delve into the forces propelling the charter's establishment, the unification of voices within the disability community, and the pivotal steps proposed to government entities to amplify employment opportunities for disabled individuals.
Join us as we celebrate the remarkable advancements since the charter's inception in 2021, bringing together charities, trade unions, and corporations in a united front to spur meaningful policy dialogues. The charter's growing influence promises to pave the way for groundbreaking reforms like mandatory employment and pay gap reporting. This conversation is not just about acknowledging the successes and envisioning the future of disability employment; it's a testament to the power of inclusive growth as a catalyst for economic and societal progress. Tune in to gain invaluable perspectives on creating work environments where diversity is not just welcomed but is a cornerstone of success.
If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.
In this episode of the Inclusive Growth Show, I was joined by Kim Hoque who is one of the founders of the Disability Charter. Kim talked to me about what the Disability Charter is and why it was established. We also discovered how it can help organisations become great employers of disabled people.
We delve into the forces propelling the charter's establishment, the unification of voices within the disability community, and the pivotal steps proposed to government entities to amplify employment opportunities for disabled individuals.
Join us as we celebrate the remarkable advancements since the charter's inception in 2021, bringing together charities, trade unions, and corporations in a united front to spur meaningful policy dialogues. The charter's growing influence promises to pave the way for groundbreaking reforms like mandatory employment and pay gap reporting. This conversation is not just about acknowledging the successes and envisioning the future of disability employment; it's a testament to the power of inclusive growth as a catalyst for economic and societal progress. Tune in to gain invaluable perspectives on creating work environments where diversity is not just welcomed but is a cornerstone of success.
If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon. Future proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace.
Toby Mildon: Hey there. Thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I am Toby Mildon, and today I'm joined by Kim Hoque. And Kim is one of the founders of the Disability Charter. And we're gonna spend some time today understanding what the Disability Charter is and why it was established, and how it can help you be a great employer of disabled people. So Kim, thanks ever so much for joining me. Before we dive into what the Disability Charter is, could you just give us a bit of an overview about who you are, what you do, and what your professional background is?
Kim Hoque: Absolutely, Toby. Yeah, thanks very much. So, yeah, I'm a Professor of Human Resource Management and also the Vice Dean for People and Culture at King's Business School, which is a faculty of King's College, London. Specifically in terms of disability, I've been doing disability research, probably about 15 years or so now. And in 2013, I helped to found the Disability At Work research group with colleagues at Cardiff Business School and also at Bayes Business School. I've also been pretty closely involved with the all party Parliamentary group for disability. I actually provided the secretariat for it until quite recently. I was also a commissioner on the Centre for Social Justices Disability Commission which was led by Lord Shinkwin. I played quite a substantial role in terms of helping to write the commission's, Now is the time, report, particularly the employment chapter in there. And as you say, Toby, I'm also a founder member of the Disability Employment Charter, and playing a key role in terms of driving it forward, seeking new signatories for it, and trying to leverage it with policy makers as well.
Toby Mildon: That's brilliant. Now, why did you establish a charter and what other organisations are involved in the program?
Kim Hoque: Okay. So the other organisations involved, so the founder members of Disability at Work which is the organisation that I was involved in founding a little while ago, also, Disability Rights UK, the DFN Charitable Foundation, the Shaw Trusts Foundation, Leonard Cheshire Scope UNISON, and the University of Warwick, which is where I was working at the time, the charter was was set up. So in terms of why we established it, I mean, I guess a lot of this comes down to the sorts of engagement that we'd had with government prior to... In particular in the lead up to the National Disability Strategy during the consultation period for that, I guess roundabout the first half of 2021. So myself, my Disability At Work colleagues, we'd go to meetings with DWP Cabinet Office and elsewhere across government. And some say, "Yeah, it was good to be getting hearing from the point of view of getting in the door and being able to say what we've been doing our research on and what the proposals were stemming from that research in policy terms."
Kim Hoque: But we often got the sense that there was a little bit of a, kind of a, slightly lukewarm reaction to what we were getting, or to what we were saying. So occasionally, people would be saying, "Well yeah, it's very interesting what you've got to say. Thank you for coming along and talking about your research with us, but we don't really know... The proposals you're putting forward, even if they've got that much support across the disability community, let alone amongst stakeholders more widely." So it's kind of a... We sort of felt that we were not quite cutting through with the messages that we had. Round about the same time, I remember, I had a conversation with Fazilet Hadi, who is the policy manager at Disability Rights UK, and sort of said this to him. And I said, "Well look, when you go along and talk to government, and talk to 'em about the sorts of things that you want them to do, the sorts of proposals that you're looking to promote with them, what sort of things do you talk about?"
Kim Hoque: And she said, well, very, very similar sorts of things to things that we were talking about: Mandatory reporting, reform of disability confident, reform of access to work, and so on. And I said, "Well, that's interesting, isn't it?" Because they tell us that people go along with all sorts of other ideas, not necessarily dovetailing with the sorts of things that we're calling for. So she said, "Okay, well look, leave this for me. I'll go along and talk to one or two other organisations and see what they are doing and saying when they go along and talk to government." And within, literally, a week, a couple of weeks, she'd effectively pulled together the founders group for the Disability Employment Charter by going and talking to people at Scope, UNISON, Leonard Cheshire, Shaw Trust, and so on.
Kim Hoque: So that was the, sort of, starting point, was to say, "Well, look, if we all come together and develop a charter where we outline in really, really simple and clear terms, exactly what it is that we want government to do." we've all put our names to it, but beyond that, you've also got... If we can get other organisations to sign it, you've also got this whole range of organisations and different stakeholders that are also saying that they're backing the sorts of things that we're calling for. And that sends a very, very clear message to governments, that firstly, there's significant appetite for substantive change in terms of disability employment policy. And secondly, that there's actually reasonable consistency, or a lot of consistency, really, in terms of exactly what that change should comprise. So it was really all about trying to send that message to government, from the point of view of the extent to which change is needed, that the sort of consistency in terms of what that change should comprise, is what it was all about. To really try and push the agenda forward.
Toby Mildon: I like how you said that, "... In very simplistic terms." you wanted to write down what change you want to see and how to communicate that to government. So what exactly is included in the Charter?
Kim Hoque: Well, I think one thing that's important to acknowledge with the Charter is that it focuses specifically on the demand side. So in other words, what can be done to encourage employers, or in some senses, support or even require employers to up their game. The idea being that the supply side just isn't enough. You can focus in terms of trying to get disabled people off benefits, into job seeking activity, and into work, but if the workplace is not sufficiently accessible, if disabled people are continuing to face too many barriers, then there's going to be real limits in terms of what those supply side measures will actually deliver. So our argument is that, "Look, you need to be focusing more on employers, and getting employers to look at the barriers within their workplace, and break them down." So the sorts of things that we call for, well, there's nine different areas that the Charter covers in total.
Kim Hoque: The first ask that we have, is in relation to disability employment and pay gap reporting, which we consider to be essential that employers actually just have the metrics themselves. So they actually know from the point of view of their own progress, how they're getting on. There's also a set of asks that are about supporting disabled people into employment. So we do have supply side proposals in there, particularly around scaling up things like supported internships, supported employment programs, and also the careers advice that disabled people receive as well. We've got proposals in there for the reform of access to work, which is largely dragging it into 21st century, just getting it to work properly, getting it properly resourced. Because as we know, disabled people are often faced with enormous delays in terms of getting decisions made in terms of their access to work applications.
Kim Hoque: But we also have proposal for things like... In principle indicative awards, and the passporting of awards as well, from one employer to another, and also the passporting from Disabled Students allowance into access to work as well. So that's another area. We've also got a set of reforms in relation to Disability Confident, which we view as not really, despite the fact there's been this enormous growth in terms of disability confidence employers, it's not really had the effect that we would want it to have had from the point of view of actually improving disabled people's employment outcomes. So our argument is that, especially for levels two and three, this certification criteria should be dependent on whether you actually meet certain disability employment outcomes, particularly employment thresholds in terms of how many disabled people that you employ. There's also a call in there to leverage government procurements as well. Of course, government procurement's expenditure is absolutely enormous. There is an element of social value that's taken into account there as well. But we think that disability employment should feature much more heavily in that from the point of view of who contracts are actually awarded to.
Kim Hoque: We've then got a set of asks in relation to workplace adjustments. Probably a particularly notable one here, is the requirement for employers to notify employees on decisions regarding reasonable adjustments within two weeks. And this is something that UNISON, in particular, were really keen to put in there. Because they see all sorts of adjustment requests just disappearing into the ether when their members put in adjustment requests and they just don't hear back. And funnily enough, it was actually... We were originally gonna say four weeks there, but it was actually an employer's group that came back to us and said, "That's too long. You're effectively giving employers a month to do very little, if anything at all." So they said, "Reduce it." So we said, "Fine. Two weeks work." And they went, "Fine with us." So two weeks it was.
Kim Hoque: Other things that we call for is that we argue that the government should encourage greater engagement with disabled people themselves and their representatives. And that includes trade union reps. So quality reps and disability champions, for example, getting statutory rights to time off from their regular jobs so that they can perform their equality rep and disability champion duties. We've also got a set of recommendations in relation to advice and support. So disabled people and employers have access to the sort of advice and support that they need to, either know their rights, or alternatively for employers to... Where do you go to actually get support to improve your disability employment practices.
Kim Hoque: And then finally, we've got a set of asks in relation to the way in which national progress on disability employment is monitored and measured. So we argue that because you've got this enormous growth in terms of the number of people who identify as disabled, that you're in a situation where that needs to be taken into account as well from the point of view of assessing things like the disability employment gap.
Kim Hoque: So a pretty comprehensive package of policies. None of it, I would say, is overtly radical or things that haven't been heard before. But I think the fact that it brings it together in one place and gives organisations, whether that's disabled people's organisations, charities, employers more widely, something that they can galvanise and get behind. I think that's the real value of having the Charter laid out the way that it is.
Toby Mildon: I would agree. I think it's nice to have it all in one place, and the fact that you've got the founding individuals and organisations, but now you are asking individual employers to get behind the Charter to give it some more teeth. I mean, you launched it in 2021, and that was a very difficult period because that was around... We were at the height of the pandemic, so I imagine it was quite challenging to launch it at that time.
Kim Hoque: Yes.
Toby Mildon: And the world has shifted considerably. If we think about our relationship to work, and people working remotely, or working from home, et cetera, et cetera. What has happened since you launched in 2021?
Kim Hoque: Okay. So 2021, we kind of went live with the Charter from the point of view of seeking signatories to it. So that was a point in which we went out into our networks and said to the different organisations that we had relationships with, "Would you be willing to sign?" We launched in October, 2021, with 37 signatures, which I thought was kind of a reasonable amount. It was okay. So the Shaw Trust held a launch event, as you say, Toby, it was right in the middle of the pandemic, so it was all online. But they put together a panel, which is a fantastic group of people, actually, they managed to pull together to put on this panel. So Shawnee Dander was on there, for example. Kate Nash from PurpleSpace, Steve Ingham, who's the CEO of PageGroup, Kamran Mallick from Disability Rights UK, and also Caroline Casey from the Valuable 500.
Kim Hoque: And I actually chaired this event. So kind of listening to what these people had to say about the Charter and their views on it, was just absolutely phenomenal. Because to be honest, if I'd actually written their speeches for them, I don't think they would've been as positive and as full of praise as what they actually said. And that's the point at which I thought to myself, "People are really properly getting this. People are kind of understanding the value of what it is that we're trying to do." They can see the purpose, they can see the drive, and there's potential here that people could really get behind this in large numbers. So I thought that was a fantastic launch event from that point of view, 'cause it really put the wind in our sails in terms of driving it forward and seeking new signatories to it, and trying to leverage it with governments as well.
Kim Hoque: So where are we now? We're now in a situation where we have 175 signatories in total. So the number of signatories has obviously grown quite significantly. Recent signatories include organisations like Waltham Forest Council, the British Medical Association, the Down Syndrome Association as well. So we're pulling in some pretty big names there. Other signatories that we've got... So pretty much all the big national charities have signed up to it now. So people like Mencap, Mind, Sense, RNIB, RNID, National Autistic Society and so on. We've got good representation among the trade union movements as well. So the Trade Union Congress itself actually signed quite recently. UNISON, of course, are a founder member, but Unite have also signed. So we've got the country's two biggest trade unions on board. And it's also the university and College Union's national policy to promote the charter as well, which is absolutely great.
Kim Hoque: Growing number of corporates as well. So PageGroup have signed, FTSE 250 recruitment firm, McDonald's have signed, Schroders, CMS Law, Blenheim Chalcot, the ClearCompany, Publicis Groupe. So a good smattering of large organised... Large employers have signed as well which I didn't really expect to see if, I'm honest, Toby. Because I saw this as really being something that DPOs, campaigning groups, charities, and so on, would get behind. But when employers started to get on board, I thought, "Great." This is just another constituency that I didn't really think would necessarily engage with the Charter and the way that they have. And the fact that they have, has just been absolutely wonderful in many ways. Other big organisations, the British Paralympic Association have signed, the Institute of Employment Studies, and the Work Foundation have signed as well, which is really good 'cause they don't sign unless they actually believe what is said from a research point of view. So that actually gives it a nice bit of academic heft, in a way, as well.
Kim Hoque: So I think it's fair to say that given the number of signatories that we have on board now, this has opened doors to discussions that we just wouldn't have otherwise had. So with people at the cabinet office, DWP, the Prime Minister's disability advisor, and also both the Minister and the Shadow Minister for Disabled People. We have a much better relationship, I think, with all of these different groups than would otherwise have been the case if it weren't for the Charter. But importantly, it's also significantly shifted the nature of the discussions as well. I mean, as I said before, when we went along and talked to these sorts of people, very often, it was a little bit sort of, "Thanks for coming along and telling us about your research."
Kim Hoque: Whereas now when I go along, it's sort of, "Well, look, I'm here as a representative of 175 organisations, all of whom are calling for the proposals outlined in the Charter." So rather than debating whether there is support for the proposals in the Charter, or whether they're actually the right thing to do, the discussions have moved on much more to, "Well, how do we actually go about taking these things forward?", "What do we do to enact them?", "What sort of things can be done to actually push them forward in substantive policy terms", which has just been great to see that it has properly shifted that sort of narrative.
Toby Mildon: That's really cool. And what are some of the more practical or tangible things that an employer could take from the Charter and start applying to their organisation?
Kim Hoque: Again, that's a very good question. I mean, I would, first off, like them to live it. Signing it is great. Obviously if the people that have signed are good disability employers, both in the way that they hire, and subsequently treat disabled people, then that is absolutely wonderful to see. I think, probably the most important thing that where employers is concerned, it's just simply the message that they're sending to government. They're essentially saying by signing that if governments implement substantive reform in the area of disability employment policy, they're not going to meet enormous resistance from employers. I mean, I think that's increasingly coming from organisations such as the CBI that are backing mandatory disability employment reporting. As are the IOD, who produced a report, probably about 18 months ago now, that backed a lot of the same sorts of policies that are outlined in the Charter. So there is significant alignment there in terms of the sorts of things that they're calling for.
Kim Hoque: The Charterd Institute of Personnel and Development as well, they've actually provided their backing for mandatory disability employment and pay gap reporting as well. At least they're, sort of, in principle, backing for that. So that's pretty much all of the main employer umbrella groups now, that are in line with at least one of the Charter's key asks, which is around mandatory reporting. So... And I think the Charter adding weight to that argument, just says to government, "Look, you can press ahead in these areas. You are gonna be... If you do so, that will receive a positive... You'll have a positive audience from employers, that'll be positively received by charities, disability campaign groups and so on." So it kind of gives the government that confidence that if they do press ahead with this, it will be met positively.
Toby Mildon: And do you foresee any change in gears, if we get a new government, if we move from conservatives to Labour, do you think?
Kim Hoque: That's a really important issue. And I think the fact that we have developed a pretty good relationship now, with the the Shadow Disability Minister, is testimony to that. So, and I think there's a couple of things that are particularly important to keep in mind there. The first, is the Labour's National Disability Policy Forum documents, which essentially will form the basis of their general election manifesto. Now, that's something that has been extremely important from the point of view of the Charter, given the fact that quite a few of the Charter's asks are actually included within it. And that in turn is thanks to the efforts of UNISON, who of course have been backing the Charter, and pushing for its inclusion in Labour policy quite strongly. And of course, if UNISON backs something, Labour do listen; they have a lot of influence over Labour, and a lot of what they say will get taken very, very seriously within Labour ranks. The fact that they've been backing this so heavily, has been really important in terms of getting several of the Charters asks into Labour's National Policy Forum document.
Kim Hoque: But I think beyond that, there was also a event that UNISON organised in December of 2023 on the Disability Employment Charter, which Vicky Foxcroft, the Shadow Minister was the keynote speaker. Within her speech, she ran through several areas of the Charter, and essentially said that if a Labour government is elected to power, that Labour will implement them. So this is policies such as mandatory employment and pay gap reporting, reform of access to work, and the introduction of rights to time off as well, for trade union reps. So that was absolutely wonderful to hear. So the engagement that we've had with Labour, has been absolutely phenomenal from the point of view of their willingness to listen to what we have to say, to take on board what we're saying.
Kim Hoque: And also the fact they're not committing to a great deal for obvious reasons at the moment, Labour. But the fact that they made these commitments in a... The Shadow minister made these commitments in a speech in Parliament, really is quite telling. And it's also quite telling the fact that she made these commitments in front of some of the other people that were speaking at the event, one of whom was Christine McAnea, who is the General Secretary of UNISON. Another of the speakers was Paul Novak, who's the general secretary of the Trade Union Congress. Now, Vicky Foxcroft knows that she can't make commitments in front of people like that lightly, because if she were to row back, or if Labour were to row back on those commitments at some point in the future, it's likely that people such as Christine McAnea and Paul Novak, are gonna be saying, "Look, what are you doing? You have made commitments in these areas. You need to be pushing forward."
Kim Hoque: So I have a great deal of optimism, Toby, that a change of government could actually see the Disability Employment Charter, actually playing a key role in terms of framing Labour's disability employment policy that lots of the sorts of things that we're calling for. I suspect, or I hope, and I hope I'm not being overly optimistic here, that we will see a lot of these things being taken forward, should we see a Labour election victory.
Toby Mildon: That's really good. It feels really encouraging. Now, the question that I ask everybody when they come on this podcast is: What does inclusive growth mean to you?
Kim Hoque: Right now, I think there's several parts to this. I think, obviously, the way inclusive growth is often viewed is that when the economy is growing, that you've got new jobs in the economy. There's possibly things like new housing projects, new transports and infrastructure projects as well, that there's an opportunity to make sure that these jobs are provided on an inclusive basis. So for example, if government is awarding contracts to employers to deliver infrastructure projects, they take equality outcomes into consideration in the award of those contracts. It could be the case that if new infrastructure is being developed, whether that's on the rail network or elsewhere, or new housing projects as well, that universal design principles are taken into consideration in doing so. But I think at the same time, the idea of inclusivity and ensuring an inclusive society, isn't something that should be dependent on economic growth.
Kim Hoque: So I think there's actually a lot to be said for decoupling the two terms. Because in a sense, it kind of suggests that when the economy isn't growing, that we don't need to worry about inclusion. That's absolutely not the case, right? There are moral and social justice arguments regarding inclusion, irrespective of whether the economy is growing. So really, employees just shouldn't take their foot off the gas in relation to inclusion when the economy hits hard times. Which actually leads onto my next point, which is that I think that inclusion shouldn't be seen as something that's somehow dependent on growth. So when the economy grows, this is what, you know... It provides opportunities to be more inclusive.
Kim Hoque: But instead, we should actually see inclusion as driving growth. View it in that way, it ensures that the right people are gonna be in the right jobs. It ensures that organisations are able to draw in the widest possible range of skills and labour pools. They're able to address their labour shortages, which of course is often the number one reason that employees give for not being able to expand their businesses. It enables you to retain skilled workers. It enables organisations to possibly develop new products and services that cater to a wider demographic, and hence, they're able to grow their market. So in short, I mean, I think inclusive growth for me, should be more about the idea that inclusion is something that can drive growth and economic success, rather than inclusion being dependent on growth in the economy.
Toby Mildon: I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. And that's one of the arguments I made in my first book: Inclusive Growth. So we're on the same page. If the person listening to us right now wants to learn more about the Charter, maybe they even want to sign up their organisation to the charter, what should they do?
Kim Hoque: What I'd like people to do is to go and take a look at our website, and take a look at the Charter itself. So that's www.disabilityemploymentcharter.org. You'll be able to see on there, not just what the Charter says, but also the range of organisations that have already signed. If people could then take it to their employer, try and get it on their radar, then that would be absolutely wonderful. My view of the Charter is the more people that are aware of it, familiar with what it says, are talking about it, the better. That's just going to... General awareness of it, I think, is something that's really important. Now, if that then subsequently leads to more organisations signing, then that's absolutely fantastic. So if people are able to, sort of, suggest to their employers that they might want to get involved from the point of view of becoming a signatory, that'd be wonderful.
Kim Hoque: And of course, if any of if anybody listening is actually an owner of a business... A small business, large business, or is involved in running a disabled person's organisation, or any sort of organisation of that nature, we would absolutely love to have you on board. It's completely free to sign the Charter. All you need to do is send your logo to us. There's a section on our website about how to get involved and how to go about signing the Charter. Once you send your logo to us, then we put the logo up on the website and that's it; You've become a signatory organisation.
Toby Mildon: That's brilliant. And it just reminds me, one of my previous podcast guests recommended appointing somebody in the company to be a disability champion, and/or if you do have an employee resource group or an employee network, to make sure that that disability network has got an executive sponsor, they could also act as the disability champion. If they've got the seniority and they've got the influence, they're probably the best people to present the Charter to and get their endorsement and support.
Kim Hoque: Yeah, I definitely agree with that.
Toby Mildon: Well Kim, thanks ever so much for joining me today. It's been really great to sit down with you and have a chat about the Disability Charter. It's really great to hear the impact that it's having on policy and the conversations that you're having with government. So I'm really looking forward to seeing how things pan out over the next few years.
Kim Hoque: That's great. Thank you very much, Toby. Thanks very much for having me on.
Toby Mildon: You're very welcome. And thank you for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast with Kim and myself. Hopefully, you've taken some really good pointers away that you can start to think about for your own organisation. As Kim says, if you are interested in learning more about the charter, and if you can get your employer to sign up to it as well, please do head on over to the website where you can get further details and become a signatory. So thanks ever so much for tuning in, and I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the podcast, which will be coming out very soon. Until then, take good care of yourself.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to The Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website at mildon.co.uk.