What Does True Inclusion Really Look Like in Practice?

Is your organisation truly inclusive, or just ticking boxes?
In this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast, Toby Mildon introduces new associate Dr. Christopher Owen - an expert in intersectional systemic oppression and founder of the consultancy Coliberate. Together, they explore what it really means to drive equity, diversity, and inclusion from the inside out.

Christopher shares insights drawn from his lived experience and academic background, challenging traditional approaches to inclusion that stop at internal metrics. Instead, he advocates for a shift towards co-liberation - building workplaces that support both internal culture and external community.

Key takeaways:

• Why true inclusion must consider the world beyond your office walls.
• How systemic oppression affects recruitment and workplace equity.
• A practical mantra to build resilience in EDI work: What is true, what is right, what is next.
• The importance of questioning “what are we including people into?”

If you're enjoying this episode and looking to boost equity, inclusion, and diversity in your organisation, my team and I are here to help. Our team specialises in crafting data-driven strategies, developing inclusive leaders, designing fair recruitment processes, and enhancing disability confidence. With a blend of professional expertise and lived experience, we're ready to support you on your journey. Reach out to us through our website. 

If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.

Transcript

Speaker 1: Welcome to the Inclusive Growth show with Toby Mildon Future proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace. 

Toby Mildon: Hey there. Thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I'm Toby Mildon and this is another slightly different episode to normal because I'm sitting down with another new associate, Christopher Owen, who has recently joined our team. As you know, normal podcast episodes are me interviewing experts around EDI. Christopher is an expert, but he's also a new associate to the team and somebody that you could work with if you do work with us. So I'm just sitting down with our new associates having a pretty laid back conversation just to get to know them a bit more. So, Christopher, thanks for joining us today. It's lovely to see you.

Dr. Christopher Owen: Oh my gosh, it's so great to be back on the Inclusive Growth Podcast. Thank you so much for having me, Toby.

Toby Mildon: You're welcome. Could you start off by telling us a bit more about who you are and what you do for us?

Dr. Christopher Owen: Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Christopher. I use both he and they pronouns. I am the founder of a consultancy called Coliberate. So we specialize not just in workplace inclusion, but also thinking about external social change making and liberation work and what that means for organizations and how they can best support their communities. So my background is that I have a PhD in intersectional systemic oppression, primarily through a lens of black feminisms. And then I have over 10 years of experience in the LGBTQ+ sector, both here in the UK and in Canada, where I'm originally from. So I come at this work from a very multifaceted perspective, but thinking about how we can bring about the co-liberation, hence the name of the consultancy, of all communities.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, I love the co-liberation approach that you're taking. Now can you remember how we met? I certainly can. And how we've started working together?

Dr. Christopher Owen: Yeah, we met because I was looking up competitors. It was back when I was working at Manchester Pride as their inclusivity development manager, running projects and programs around workplace inclusion for them. And I was doing some work on how I can improve the program and compete in the market and came upon your website. And I remember just thinking, right, what can I possibly do to compete with somebody with so much more experience and such extraordinary client lists? What was I possibly going to be able to do? So I go into meeting with you very much ready to fight, I think. And then you were nothing but sweet and warm and you had me on your podcast and you've always encouraged me and supported me in my journey and always looked for opportunities for me. And you never saw me as a threat or a competition. It was just a peer. And you were very much a mentor for me when I really needed it. And then when I lost my job at Manchester Pride, when I was made redundant, you jumped on it. You didn't hesitate.

Dr. Christopher Owen: You immediately were like, right, well, let's find you some work. And you helped me figure out my day rate, and you got me signed up to be an associate, and you just made sure that I would land on my feet. And so your phenomenal support for me has made a real difference. It's made a real meaningful difference for me. I'm always very grateful for you, Toby.

Toby Mildon: Thanks. And, yeah, I love having you in my life, both as business colleagues, but just as a friend. You know, we both live in Manchester, so it's very easy for us to meet up and go for a drink and have good times. So how did you first get into inclusion work?

Dr. Christopher Owen: It's an interesting question, because I feel like as a marginalized person, as a queer person, I feel like I could say I've always been involved. From my childhood, I've known that I didn't fit in. In my adolescence, I figured out that I was queer. And when I started my studies, I became really fascinated by the invisible, unintentional ways that we harm people and harm marginalized communities. I was really fascinated by the systemic erasure of queer communities and how you can harm queer people without being directly homophobic to them. And so the mechanisms of it all became really fascinating to me. And I went through all the way to the PhD fully with the intention of becoming an academic. And then it was literally at the end of my PhD, I'm talking, I'd already passed my viva, which is the final exam for a PhD student. And then I was at a conference, two months before my graduation ceremony, and I was in these spaces with other academics talking about different areas of oppression. So there was a panel on anti-racism and another panel on LGBTQ+ plus inclusion and so on and so forth.

Dr. Christopher Owen: And every single time I would get into fights with people because they were only interested in talking about these problems on a theoretical level. And I was really unhappy with that. I really was like, no, these are real people dealing with real problems. And at the time I was working as a youth worker with queer youth, especially trans youth and the state of transphobia in the UK. I mean, it's horrific now, but it was bad then as well. And so I knew the direct impact that this had and I just felt like the academic approach was really dehumanizing and wasn't engaging enough. So I left academia and I dipped my toe in here and there a little bit less and less as time goes on. But I became very passionate about what are the practical, reasonable, meaningful things that we can do to make a real difference and a real change. And that led me to working with professionals. I started delivering training to the people who were working with the queer youth that I was working with. So teachers and healthcare professionals and youth workers, social workers, things like that.

Dr. Christopher Owen: And then my work just grew from there until I was working with big corporations like Starbucks and Autotrader and Booking.com, and really sinking my teeth into some very powerful organizations and what they have the ability to do to drive meaningful change, which is only lit the fire in me even harder, to be honest.

Toby Mildon: So you recently left employment and you've set up your own practice called Coliberate. What does a typical morning look like for you now, now that you're working for yourself and you are your own boss?

Dr. Christopher Owen: Oh, isn't it the best thing? I love being self-employed. I love it. And a typical morning for me is in bed. I will sleep in for as late as I can, Toby. I am not a morning person but I am a night owl so I will be happy to work later into the evening and I do some coaching work and sometimes that takes place in the later evening so I sort of balance that out. I don't know if I have a typical morning, I'll be honest with you, because I structure my day around what I need. I think this idea of you've got to work the 9:00 to 5:00 and you have to work in those hours, it doesn't work. So one of the things that I've been trying to practice as a newly self-employed person is listening to my body and so resting when I need to rest, working when I've got the focus and the energy. So if it means that, yeah, it's 11:00 AM and I'm sleepy, great, sleep. Unless I've got a meeting, I can sleep. And if it's 10:00 PM and I'm wired and I've got ideas, there's no shame in working at that hour.

Dr. Christopher Owen: A dream morning. A dream start to my day would be to read a good book, have a cup of tea and read a book and take it easy and ease into the day slowly. That would be my ideal. And I try and strive for that on the days that I can.

Toby Mildon: Excellent. Yeah. I love how you're structuring your day around your energy levels because at the end of the day, the 9 to 5 was constructed as part of the industrial revolution when we were working in factories and it was all about how quickly you can churn out widgets. But we don't live in that era anymore. We're living in a creative and a knowledge-based industry. So moving on to the inclusion work that you do, what is an inclusion myth that you often challenge?

Dr. Christopher Owen: I think the biggest myth or misunderstanding that I am seeing in my work is people are treating their inclusion work like their organization exists in a vacuum. So they're worried about their policies, their diversity statistics, their workplace culture and all of their agenda items on their EDI action plan, if they have one, are about them. It's good to look inward and think about your organization. But don't forget that both you and your whole team will leave the office and go out into that big wider world. And that big wider world is going through a cost of living crisis. We're looking at international issues like genocide. We've got the climate crisis, we've got huge political division. It's stressful being alive right now and your team is facing that. And these things actually are all interconnected to a system of power and domination and oppression and they will impact your business. I recently did a recruitment training for a talent acquisition team. They wanted to improve their diversity and they didn't understand why they weren't improving their diversity. The most qualified candidates that they could find were all white people.

Dr. Christopher Owen: And they were sort of wanting to hire based off of merit and wash their hands of the issue and the responsibility and say, well, we hired the best person for the job. It's not our fault that black people aren't interested in our industry or whatever. And so we sort of took that back and went, well, what's stopping people of the global majority or disabled people from getting the skills and the qualifications in order to be of interest to you, in order to reach that? And we looked at the systemic oppression that really begins right at birth. It really is childhood is shaped by it. And we can look at things like access to education, access to culturally sensitive healthcare, access to transportation. All of these things impact people's ability to get the qualifications that they need in order to get these jobs. These systemic issues are not that business's fault. It's not their fault. And me speaking to them about it isn't designed to blame them or shame them. It's not that. What it is is taking responsibility for your community, being a member of your community and taking responsibility for it.

Dr. Christopher Owen: So it's not your fault that these systemic issues are in place which make it more difficult for you to hire a diverse team. But you could take some ownership and responsibility for your community by putting on workshops to help people prepare for the interview process, by supporting programs that help with career development, by working with community groups and skill sharing with their attendees to really support the provide that infrastructure and that knowledge base to diverse communities. Does it mean going the extra mile? Yes. Does it mean working on things that might seem outside your remit initially? Yes. It means that your EDI initiatives can't just focus inwardly. You have to look at the whole picture. You have to recognize that your organization is part of the system and you can either maintain the status quo and do nothing about the status quo, which means doing nothing about racism or homophobia or misogyny, etcetera, or be an active agent of positive social change and try and improve fairness and equality, which can't be done exclusively internally. It can only be achieved if it's done also externally. And so the role you play within your community or communities, if you're a large organization, needs to be part of your EDI strategy.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, I really love this mindset shift that you're talking about here. So just building on that, I mean, what do you wish more business leaders would say or do?

Dr. Christopher Owen: You've asked me this question before and I think last time I said how can I help? I think a lot of leaders probably do say that. What I really meant by that was I wish more leaders would be open to bottom up decision making and power structures where leaders see themselves as a resource for their teams rather than teams as a resource for achieving the leader's objectives. But bringing into that question of how can I help? Don't just ask your team members how can I help? Ask and this might be just a personal reflective question. Ask that for how are you helping your community? How are you helping the future that you want to build? I think we need leaders. Leaders will spend time coming up with a business plan and it will think about their mission and their purpose and their vision and all of these things. What's your inclusion plan? And I don't mean a set of agenda items. I mean what's the vision? Where are you going? What's the outcome that you're looking for in three years, five years, 10 years? An ambiguous amount of time in the future.

Dr. Christopher Owen: What's the world like? Is it fairer? Is it freer? Is it kinder? Do people take care of each other better? If that's what you want, if you want the world to look like that, then stop and ask, all right? Now how do we get there and how does our organization and how do I as a leader use our assets and our resources and our skills and our expertise towards building that future? And I think that process, I don't know if it's a question or a thing or, but it's a process. That process is something that I think more leaders need to really think about and then take lead the way towards creating a better future. You can lead the way towards making your business more money. And I get that that's a priority. But how is the whole world, your community, your country also a priority? And how are you taking a leadership role in that, I think is also really important.

Toby Mildon: Yeah. I write about this in my book Building Inclusivity, where you have to treat EDI as any other business strategic priority. And like you say, you have to create the right climate of change and that is a process. So you have to begin by creating your vision and building a coalition of senior leaders who are really going to drive change and start to identify quick wins that will help you build traction and things like that. So there is a model to follow. Now, you've been working in the field of EDI for quite a while. How would you define inclusivity to somebody who hasn't really thought about it much? And has that definition of inclusivity changed over time for you, over the course of your career?

Dr. Christopher Owen: Yeah, I think the whole idea of inclusion actually needs to be interrogated. There are lots of different definitions out there. A key approach is thinking about how you make people feel like they belong within your organization and included. It's sort of in the name. For me though, I want us to take a step back and saying, well, what are we including them in? Let me give you an example. If you've got an organization that isn't very anti-racist and doesn't have the necessary understanding or policies in place to support people of the global majority. And then you hire diverse staff, a variety of ethnicities into the team, and you welcome them with open arms and you're friendly. No one says anything hateful and mean. There's no instances of bullying. As far as you're concerned, you're following the equality act of 2010. These people have been included. But when you talk one on one of those people, you come to find out that they're all doing something called code switching, which is where they basically perform more white around their white colleagues. They use different language, they change their mannerisms, they're constantly on their toes.

Dr. Christopher Owen: And this is a form of something called minority stress that wears down on you where you can't be your authentic self at work, and it actually causes mental illness and it's really bad for people. And then those employees will burn out. They will be unhappy. They won't be motivated to work very hard. They might leave the job, or they might not get promoted or get fired or whatever else. And the framework there then is that those people of the global majority, they failed because as far as the business is concerned, they welcomed them in. They treated them the same as everybody else. They were they're like, you belong here 100%. And yet still those staff struggled to succeed, unlike their white colleagues. Therefore, these people of the global majority, and maybe even all people of the global majority aren't as smart or talented or hardworking or whatever else. And it perpetuates these really racist stereotypes when in reality, we were including them in something racist. We were including them in something that maintained white supremacy, really, for lack of a better term. And so inclusion, to me, needs to be about not just including into a system that's already broken and unfair.

Dr. Christopher Owen: It's got to be about changing that system. It's really easy and really common to feel like you're doing the right thing by including marginalized people into the dominant system. And it does take a mindset shift to think about how your way things always have been and your status quo, even if it feels nice to you, might be actually really harmful for people of other communities. And taking time to reflect on that and change the systemic and structural components of your organization and your relationship with communities, is a necessary part of truly including people from marginalized communities.

Toby Mildon: So in that case, what is one practical tip or action that the person listening to us right now could take in order to build inclusion in their organization.

Dr. Christopher Owen: I think, well, to be cheeky, hire me. I think, no, I think a practical thing you can do is stop and assess and ask the question, what can we do? A lot of people will think, oh, we've got to try and end racism. Well, I'm sorry, that's too big a goal. You're not going to achieve that. That's nice. It's lovely. But it's not realistic, really. What can you do? What skills do you have? What resources do you have? I often deliver talks and workshops to organizations and we'll be in this big meeting room or space for gatherings or whatever. And it's a really lovely space. And these spaces often sit empty and they only use them when they are having a guest speaker in or they're having an event. And I'll say, right, this room that you have, it's a resource and it's an asset that you could provide to community groups who cannot afford to rent spaces elsewhere. And you could let them come in and use this space in the evenings or on the weekend or something, or on a weekday where you're not using it. And I see the people in the room just sort of look around and go, oh, we never even thought of that.

Dr. Christopher Owen: So that's my practical tip. Stop and take stock. Take stock of what you've got and think creatively about what, where you can use it and how you can best effectively use it for your communities. And if you're not really sure how to do that, call me, because that's what I offer. That's how I help. And we can really help make a really practical plan where you don't have to spend a load of money on new stuff. We could look at what you've already got and use that.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, definitely. I know you were joking earlier about calling you up and asking to work with you.

Dr. Christopher Owen: I was being cheeky. I don't know if I was joking.

Toby Mildon: But that's what being an associate is all about. You're here to provide your expertise and benefit organizations with that. So with that in mind, can you just give us a quick overview of some of the workshops that you do for us as well as the strategic consulting side of things?

Dr. Christopher Owen: Yeah, so I do a variety of things. All my work is bespoke. One of the things that I'm working on right now for Mildon is a workshop called the Four Secret Ingredients to Becoming a Sector Leader in Social Value. So I talked about how you need to be thinking about that systemic change making. You need to be thinking about the external stuff. Well, systems of oppression are really complicated and really big and it's really actually very scary to engage in these rather political issues. So this workshop basically functions to simplify all of that, to set out clear structures on okay, this is how we understand how these things are organized. This is how we understand what it looks like on the everyday and so on and so forth and really take measure that out and make a plan for each area so that you have a clear direction moving forward. You can feel confident with that kind of work but also you know that it's going to achieve your objectives that you're not just hoping for the best. There's something measurable for you there. Other work that I do as well, I offer, I mean I do loads of speaking and training and workshops, those kinds of things are my bread and butter.

Dr. Christopher Owen: Oh, I also offer coaching, one on one and group coaching and consulting pieces. So I recently did a big EDI audit for an organization which didn't just involve reading through all of. So I read through all their policies and I spoke to their staff and I reviewed their practices and procedures. But then my feedback to them wasn't just about right, well, best practice would have you use gender inclusive language in your maternity policy. Great, I can do that and I did tell them to do that. But I'm also then talking to them about but also you need these policies that are missing. You need a strategy here and your team needs a mindset shift in these ways and your culture needs to address these issues so that you can start working towards an external action plan. And that external action plan should be prioritizing these key issues based off of what your organization's values and mission is, and really just building that into their strategy. So I try and cover all of the bases. But key with Mildon for sure. Right now we've got these workshops that I'm working on that I think will be really exciting.

Toby Mildon: Cool. Let's switch gears a bit to understand what you're like outside of work and doing EDI work. How do you take care of yourself when things get tough? Because it is difficult working in this field. But yeah, how do you look after yourself and your well-being?

Dr. Christopher Owen: It's a good question. I did a little bit of research on resilience to try and help me not break down all the time. Basically things get hard and things get scary and I read a bunch of different articles. And then from that I developed my own little mantra, which I'm happy to share. It's not a secret. And the mantra is what is true, what is right, what is next. So what is true means thinking about what's the facts. So when things feel terrible or seem terrible, distinguishing between the worries of what if this happens? And what if this happens? And oh my gosh, I think so and so hates me, get rid of all of that. What do we know is 100% true? And some of that might be bad, but at least we've got the facts in front of us. The next what is right? We're thinking about why am I doing this in the first place? Going back to my purpose, going back to my values, and reminding myself why dealing with whatever I'm dealing with is worth it, and reminding myself, I guess, of my value in all of that.

Dr. Christopher Owen: And then the last one is what is next? I talked earlier about having that EDI vision and picturing the world that you want to achieve. So that means doing the same for yourself in terms of your resilience. What's next? Is next that the world's going to be on fire. Because if it is, you're just going to run around screaming, right? And you're going to give up hope. But if what's next is a fair and freer future, then you're going to behave in ways that try and create that. And when you have to think on the fly, when you have to improvise, when you're juggling loads of things and it's really hard, you know which direction you're going in. And so the improvisation should be to lead you there. So rather than solving that problem in the moment, it's solving the problem for what's next. And sometimes we get a problem and we'll give it a quick fix so that we don't have to think about it anymore and move on. But actually that can then have unintended consequences and lead us in a direction we didn't foresee or want. But if we stop and say, well, what's next?

Dr. Christopher Owen: And we know what that looks like, then when you've got that problem, you're steering it in the right direction. And I hope that mantra can just help people feel grounded but also strong. I meet so many people right now who feel so helpless and hopeless about the state of the world. And a big priority of mine with Coliberate is to help people feel like they have some control that they can take back their power and they really feel empowered and resilient enough to make a meaningful impact in whatever it is that they're doing. And you can't do that if you're curled up in a ball crying about the end of the world. We need to be able to take a deep breath and get to work. And so what is true, what is right, and what is next?

Toby Mildon: I love it. I love it. So just as we bring this conversation to a close, I've got some quick fire questions for you.

Dr. Christopher Owen: Hit me.

Toby Mildon: What is a book that everyone should read?

Dr. Christopher Owen: I'm a really big fan of a book called What White People Can Do Next by Emma Dabiri. It is a response to loads of people reading about anti-racism following the Black Lives Matter movement in 2020. And these books flew off the shelves and then nothing changed. Emma Dabiri is sort of like, right, you've won the books now what? And she gives really practical, thoughtful, not always popular opinions, but I think there are right opinions on what we can do next to support marginalized communities. Her book is specifically about supporting black people and people of the global majority. I have used those same perspectives and insights just in all allyship work and all social change making work. It's been really valuable for me.

Toby Mildon: Cool. Who is somebody that's really influenced you?

Dr. Christopher Owen: Other than you?

Toby Mildon: Yeah, other than me. Of course.

Dr. Christopher Owen: Of course. I'm going to have to go with a friend of mine named Natasha Miles who is the founder of a queer counseling program called the Lavender Therapy Collective. The Lavender Therapy Collective focuses specifically on counseling for queer people, very much from a neurodiverse lens and inclusive space. But Natasha really has taught me about community care, how to take care of your community, how to show up when it's hard. We live in such competitive, individualist spaces sometimes and Tasha has really taught me that you have to take care of one another. Community is at the root of liberation. So if you're looking for a therapist, the Lavender Therapy Collective. Good people there.

Toby Mildon: Excellent. And what is one skill that you're working on at the moment?

Dr. Christopher Owen: What am I not working on? I don't know if I'll ever be done learning how to be a good coach. I am constantly finding new tips, new approaches. I absolutely adore coaching. I think it might be my favorite piece of work that I do, especially the one on one space. Really helping people connect dots is brilliant, but I think I will always be learning more. It's such an exciting field with so much development. So, yeah, in September I'm going on a course for it and I've got some books on it that I need to read. I'm really excited about it.

Toby Mildon: Cool. And what is one of your go-to comfort activities?

Dr. Christopher Owen: Reading. I'm a sucker for fantasy and science fiction. Let me hide away with a good book and a cup of tea and get lost in some magical adventure. I will read all day if I can.

Toby Mildon: And finally, what is one small thing that brings you peace?

Dr. Christopher Owen: This might sound a bit cheesy, but it's time with my boyfriend. That's a bit corny, but every day we we live on one of Salford's canals and every day we go for a walk along that canal and at least once a day, maybe twice or three times and sometimes we dance around in the living room and sometimes we cook together or we curl up and watch Star Trek together. But just being with him, honestly, he is my home.

Toby Mildon: That's lovely. And just as we bring this to a close, is there anything else that you want to say?

Dr. Christopher Owen: Yeah. I hope today's chat has offered a mindset shift for your audience or some new perspectives or opportunities. And if people are interested in learning more, they're curious about it or they don't quite get it and they want to chat about it. I'm always open to a free discovery call. That's not an issue. So people can find me on my website at coliberate.co.uk or add me on LinkedIn. I'm always on LinkedIn, so I'm very present there. Let's have a chat. Let's get to know each other and we can explore how I can best support your external change making goals in relation to your internal strategies. Because I think we can only make the world a better place if we do it together.

Toby Mildon: And also you're also on our team page on our website. So if the person listening to us right now wants to get in touch with you, they can go to mildon.co.uk, go to the About Us page. You'll see a whole list of associates and then there's a link to Christopher's LinkedIn profile, if that's easier to get in touch with you as well, of course. Christopher, thanks ever so much for taking time out of your day to have this conversation. I love working with you. I think we do some great work together and I'm always learning from you and I can't wait to continue doing more good stuff with you. So thanks for the conversation and I look forward to seeing you soon.

Dr. Christopher Owen: Yeah, the feeling is entirely mutual. I absolutely adore you, Toby, and I'm really excited to be an associate of Mildon. You've built something really incredible here. It's an incredible team of people and I'm very proud to be among them and to be working with you. So thank you so much for having me back on your podcast. It's always a delight to speak with you. And yeah, let's get together soon. I want to go see Superman.

Toby Mildon: Cool. Excellent. Well, that's a date. So thanks ever so much for tuning into this episode with Christopher and myself. Hopefully you found it inspirational and it's actually given you some different ways of thinking or approaching EDI in your organization. And if there's anything that Christopher or I can do to support you on that journey, then please do reach out to us through our respective websites so mildon.co.uk, or Christopher's Coliberate website, or find us on LinkedIn and chat with us on LinkedIn. So until next time, I will see you on the next episode, which will be coming up very soon. Take care. Bye-bye.

Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website at mildon.co.uk.