Why Disabled Leaders Are Still Misunderstood – And How HR Can Change That

Why are disabled individuals still excluded from leadership?

In this episode of The Inclusive Growth Show, Toby Mildon speaks with Pravjoth Gill, a disability advocate and recent HR graduate, whose dissertation explores the misrepresentation of disabled people in leadership roles – and what inclusive HR practices can do to change this.

Pravjoth shares how her lived experience and intersectional identity shaped her research, what the biggest blockers to disabled leadership are, and how internalised ableism and outdated workplace systems continue to hold talent back.

Key takeaways:

• Why disabled leaders are often seen as ‘inspirational’ – and why that’s problematic.
• The real barriers beyond bias: broken systems, lack of adjustments, and inaccessible leadership pipelines.
• What HR can do now: co-creating inclusive training with disabled voices.
• The role of voluntary sectors and what others can learn.
• What the workplace could look like in 10 years if we get inclusion right.

Guest Highlight:

Pravjoth Gill, Associate at CIPD

 🔗 LinkedIn profile

If you're enjoying this episode and looking to boost equity, inclusion, and diversity in your organisation, my team and I are here to help. Our team specialises in crafting data-driven strategies, developing inclusive leaders, designing fair recruitment processes, and enhancing disability confidence. With a blend of professional expertise and lived experience, we're ready to support you on your journey. Reach out to us through our website. 

If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.

Transcript

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Speaker 1: Welcome to The Inclusive Growth show with Toby Milden. Future proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace. 

Toby Mildon: Hey there. Thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of The Inclusive Growth Show. I'm Toby Milden and today I'm joined by Pravjoth Gill. And Pravjoth has just written a really great dissertation as part of her degree at university, which I was very fortunate to be able to contribute to her research. And it's titled 'Investigating the misrepresentation of disabled individuals in leadership positions and the role of inclusive human resource practices.' So in this episode, we're going to be talking about what sparked Pravjoth's interest in doing this research in the first place. From her research, how disabled leaders are usually talked about within the workplace, what are some of the biggest blockers for disabled people to move into senior roles? If HR could change one practice tomorrow, what would that be to really shift the needle? What do non disabled leaders often get wrong around disability and leadership? Who's doing disability inclusion well, and if disability inclusion became part of the leadership DNA, what would that look like? So we've got a lot to cover today, so it's lovely to see you. Thanks for joining me today.

Pravjoth Gill: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited for this discussion.

Toby Mildon: Cool. So you did your degree at De Montfort University, in Leicester. Can you just begin by explaining what sparked your interest in the first place to research how disabled people are seen in leadership? And was there a particular moment that set you on this path?

Pravjoth Gill: Yeah, definitely. So I'm a natural born disabled person. So I have a condition called left hemorrhagic cerebral palsy, which is a condition that affects my left side of my body, so mainly my limbs, so my left arm, particularly my left leg, and also some processing in my brain as well with the cerebral cortex. So I was born with that condition. And all throughout my life there was challenges that I encountered when it comes to things like making friends, academic life, finding employment, all of those kind of stuff. And I actually did my bachelor's degree at Birmingham City University. And from there I was given opportunities in leadership that I haven't done before. So I started my own company called Movement Fitness and Nutrition, started a podcast from that, and then I became a society leader for our disabled student society. And then I ended up being elected as a student union officer, which is a really high leadership position. And I noticed with that, there's not a lot of representation in disability. And then when it came to my masters at De Monfort University, I was doing my HR course and I was reading about all the leadership types and all the leadership styles and it just occurred to me that there's not a lot of representation when it comes to disabled people being in leadership.

Pravjoth Gill: And when you actually look into it, there's a huge misrepresentation. I think it only 25% of leaders that are disabled and then there are leaders that have not disclosed their disability and due to fear. So when I noticed that, I wanted to do this research because there's firstly, not a lot in the gap in the literature, it's not a lot in the literature about disability and leadership and there's not much of a link between it. And having experienced a leadership position in the past and seeing how that can influence some people's thoughts and feelings towards being seen as a leader and being that kind of ideal leader. I wanted to do this research to really back up what's been going up through personal experience, but then also what must other disabled leaders feel to be in that kind of position where they're perceived very differently on a day to day basis. And so that really sparked a passion in me to do this research. And just because it wasn't talked about quite a lot, it wasn't really spoken about. Particularly when you come to do research, there's a lot of research about how does a different gender influence your leadership style?

Pravjoth Gill: How does a different ethnicity influence your leadership style? I'm an intersexual identity. So I am a woman, I am a person of color, so I'm from the Indian descent and I'm also disabled. So you can see a lot of intersexualities gone into this. And so when I was reading all these papers about gender and relationship, ethnicity and leadership, I do resonate with them, but there wasn't a lot that I could resonate with having a disability. How does different disabilities play a part into portraying leadership styles? And so that really sparked my interest of doing this research about why are people misrepresented in leadership position, why disabled people are actually misrepresented and what can we do as organizations and practices to influence that inclusive practices and lead towards that more equitable society.

Toby Mildon: That's really, really great background and I can certainly see why you were definitely drawn to researching this area. And I mean from the research that you did, how are disabled leaders usually talked about and how does that affect their chances to lead?

Pravjoth Gill: Yes, so in my research I found a lot of different perceptions that non disabled people have about disabled people. So one of them is they're perceived as weak and incapable. So not being seen as a very serious person. When you often talk to non-disabled leaders, they tend to see disabled people not capable of doing their job. So not being able to have the same mindset as a non disabled person. And that really is a big shift on how a lot of people are seen in society. And then you have the other side, which is the weak side, that they're not strong or take accountability or to receive feedback. Well, that's what a lot of non disabled people think about us. And that's something that really hurts me because when I did my leadership position, I demonstrated very strong qualities of leadership. But when it came to opportunities for further leadership positions and further leadership development, I wasn't chosen because of that perception that I was weak or incapable or "dumb" in quotation marks. And it really just shows how there's a lot of stigma and a lot of attitudes towards us and a lot of ableism a lot.

Pravjoth Gill: And then from those experiences that I had, a lot of internalized ableism came into myself thinking, am I actually capable of becoming a leader? Doubting myself for a minute, would my disability actually play a role into this? And it was shown in research that internalized ableism was also a reason why a lot of non disabled people perceive leadership in that way for disabled people. And it does affect their chances, because if you were in a room, for example, and you see a non disabled person, white cis heterosexual man compared to myself, who's a woman, who's a person of color, who's disabled, who would they most likely choose from that stereotypical mindset, that white person over myself, who's probably more capable than him. So I think it does play a huge part into how non disabled people really look into that disabled leader. And that disabled leader was willing to become a leader but there are so many setbacks towards that. We'll obviously talk about that later as well.

Toby Mildon: Yeah. You've clearly outlined certainly the attitudinal and the interpersonal challenges and the biases that we often see. What would you say other than that? I mean, those are pretty big in themselves. But are there any kind of other big blockers that prevent disabled people from rising to senior positions?

Pravjoth Gill: Definitely. There's a lot of barriers, a lot of blockers. So one is that ableism, that fear of ableism from disabled people that are seen as weak and incapable of doing their position. And so that internalized ableism comes in, as I've spoken of before. The system's also not built up, so a lack of training and development for disabled people. We see often in leadership development, they really talk about this ideal leadership archetype, which is that straight heterosexual, cis white man, and that is the ideal leader in their perspective. And so they're more likely to be not only invited to leadership development, but also host it and work on that. And then you talk about the whole perception of, there's a lack of leadership and development. Like non disabled people are less likely to look at the disabled person and be like, you're going to be a leader one day, we're not just going to go through, make you go through this development session or development training because you don't need it at the end of the day you. Because you're unlikely to be a leader, unlikely. And so there's really that lack of training and development, but also awareness.

Pravjoth Gill: A lot of non disabled people, especially in the workplace, this is talked about quite a lot in different researchers where in the workplace there's obviously disability discrimination that occurs in the workplace and that disabled person perceived as less than the other. And so it really ties in into that big blocker of that perception that people have that, oh, this person is not as very weak. They probably have to deal with a lot of health crisis and a lot of just health problems overall. And so they can't be a leader. And so we're just not going to develop you as a leader. So really that lack of training and awareness about disabled people is obviously one of the biggest blockers. But then also the systems that are put in place. So lack of reasonable adjustments, for example, in the workplace. We're seeing with access to work. There's a huge crisis of access to work at the moment where we're seeing so many applications are being backlogged because of the amount of disabled people that just need regular, reasonable adjustments to just do their job and the access to workspace not really capable of managing that. But then you also have the disability confidence scheme as well, where although it is a good scheme to get people's foot out into the door, it is also very not efficient because they will only test you if you have minimal requirements within the role rather than, oh, it's just a jump set.

Pravjoth Gill: And some people really don't like the scheme overall as well. So far the government's doing a bit to help disabled people just to get their foot in the door. It is not often very efficient or capable of doing so. And so... And also lack of physical spaces as well. So you could see things where we already talked about accessibility, how lifts and ramps are often not very accessible. And then also room sizes. So when I was working in one of my previous position, I worked in a very tiny office and I need space to get around because firstly I have claustrophobia because of my disability and secondly I need to stretch my legs because of my disability. And so they put me in a very small office and never spoke about it, they never did anything, despite me saying so many times. And so just to get people into the workplace, the system's broken. But even more so for leadership, where I read this excerpt where it was like leadership development programs are usually on the top of those building. And it often is that disabled people may... There's a lift that is broken. How can a disabled person go to a leadership development program if it's not accessible for them?

Pravjoth Gill: And that really struck me about how the systems and the attitudes and so much more barriers can actually lead to that misrepresentation. Because although the disabled person is willing to become a leader, the systems and the attitudes are not built in place for them. And so those are the biggest blockers as I've noticed in my research. We often had to link the misrepresentation, the disabled people in the workplace with leadership. But it is on a more intense level because of that already misperception about disabled people within leadership.

Toby Mildon: And if HR were able to change just one process tomorrow that would really move the needle for disabled people who want to move into a senior leadership position, what would you recommend and why?

Pravjoth Gill: One of my recommendations that I put towards my research was to build a tailored disability inclusive training and awareness where we are able to not only put in like a few slides about disability awareness, to actually co-create it with a disabled leader so that they're able to highlight the key things that an organization can do to improve their HR practices, but then also tailor it so that the company is seen as disability inclusive as they co created it with a disabled person. So I would say I would recommend that the most because then it informs everything else. If you have tailored inclusive, disability inclusive training, it can go on to things like the company improving its accessibility practices, improving their leadership development, improving the attitudes that non disabled people have about disability. And so I think with that just a starting point of that tailored training and awareness, it really bumps up or improve all the situations that disabled people are put in, I would say.

Toby Mildon: Definitely the key word that you said there is co-creation. And in the disability rights movement the phrase nothing about us was, without us was popularized. And that basically means if you're going to change any policies, processes or systems, you have to involve the People that are ultimately affected by that.

Pravjoth Gill: Yeah.

Toby Mildon: What are some of the things that non disabled leaders often get it wrong around disability and leadership?

Pravjoth Gill: So, yeah, so as I mentioned before, is the word that disabled people are heroic, inspiring if they become a leader. So disabled people are often seen as inspirational if they go up into a leadership position. When I spoke to a few disabled leaders, that was the terminology that they used, that they're seen as inspirational, but they don't really like the word because it's not really a terminology that should be used just so you can live your life. A lot of people find that quite offensive. I especially find that as offensive. I really don't like the word inspirational and disability in the same sentence when I came into my leadership position. Because it should be a basic thing that we should have without the need to applaud or clap for them at the end of the day. And so that's a lot of things that non disabled leaders have wrong about disability, is that disabled people are seen as inspirational, which is not the case at all. And then also another thing is that they have a sense of pity towards us that they say, oh, you're disabled. How bad did the world get to know that with you?

Pravjoth Gill: And I also find that quite offensive as a disabled leader because it talks about how we are also seen as a bottom tier as opposed to non disabled leaders. And that's what they also get wrong, is that we're not capable to do our jobs, really work properly. And once they're actually given a chance on us, then they will see all the perceptions they had before goes away. So I would say those two things are seen as what they get wrong is those perceptions that they have that were inspirational, they have a sense of pity towards us that we're weak, we incapable to do our jobs as leaders.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, definitely. There's often this perception that disabled people in society are "less than non disabled people". So therefore there's lower expectations placed upon you. And then you've got all these stereotypes and things like that come out. In the research that you did, did you find any leaders or organizations that are doing this well, where they are encouraging disabled people to be leaders in a meaningful way?

Pravjoth Gill: There's not a lot of companies that are doing so, which it was very difficult to find any organizations to do. So if you're talking about particular sectors, however, the voluntary sector is doing the best out of the private sector and the public sector. They're doing the better side because they understand the real life experiences of disabled people, but it's still not up to par in of how we are seen. So out of those sectors, I will say the voluntary sector is kind of doing it the best, but it's not all, it's the best at the moment. And there's still a lot of work that all sectors need to do to catch up to that change that we need at the end of the day. And then in terms of leaders, I would say if you are a disabled person in leadership, you're already a disability inclusive company because you actually are taking into account that disabled person, their capabilities. And so that knocks out all the perceptions that you have in the workplace about that, because if that does occur, that can go up to the leader very quickly and that could be taken accountability. Whereas you're talking about those leaders, non disabled leaders in their position and then the workers are non disability as well. That doesn't show inclusivity.

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Toby Mildon: Because some people often think, oh, we just have a person of color in our team and that's inclusive. That's not inclusive at the end of the day, you haven't taken into account your whole practices that you need to recruit someone, to select someone, to train them, to monitor their performance. And so I would say there's not a lot of companies that are doing it so far. I would say so far, the voluntary sector is doing the best out of everyone. And that really displays how it is perceived because a lot of voluntary sectors have disability led organizations.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, definitely. I mean, in my career I've worked for some really big companies, so I've worked for British Airways, Accenture, Cerna, which is a healthcare technology company which is now part of Oracle, the BBC and Deloitte. And out of all of those companies, I would say the BBC was probably the most disability inclusive and certainly had the most visible disabled people in senior positions than any other organization I've worked with in. So I had lots of really good role models in the BBC and in other businesses. Those disabled leaders were lacking, unfortunately.

Pravjoth Gill: Definitely.

Toby Mildon: Let's kind of Fast forward to 10 years and if disability inclusion just becomes part of the leadership DNA in organisations, what would workplaces look like in 10 years time if we can get that right?

Pravjoth Gill: If we do get those practices right and we implement some of the recommendations that were given by HR professional for years, I would say the workplace will look a very different place. Not only they would be able to kind of change the attitudes that people may have within the workplace about disabled people, but then they will also get more disabled people to have the opportunity to become leaders. So making sure that they attend leadership development, putting in those reasonable adjustments if they do so. And also making sure that we are putting in systems that are not preventing disabled to be leaders, to become leaders. And so the workplace will look a very different place. There will be a lot more disabled people that are not just seen as disabled diversity quotas, but then they're seen as integrated into the workplace culture and practices that we have on a daily basis. So disability inclusion will be a very much safer workplace for disabled people and for disabled people who want to become leaders. And so when we look at some of the recommendations that are provided, some companies may see that as a way to go if they want to have more disabled people, if they change their attitudes as well.

Pravjoth Gill: I think the attitude change really needs to happen to see more disabled people become more inclusive in the workplace. And hopefully in 10 years time, if that ever takes place, I would want that workplace to be very safe, very reasonable, and to provide the basic rights that we need to thrive in the work place.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant. Well, thanks ever so much for your time today. It's been lovely to catch up with you. Congratulations on completing your master's degree and getting your thesis submitted. I know it's no mean feat to get that done. It's some really important and interesting research that you've done there.

Pravjoth Gill: Yep, definitely. And if you want to check out the research, I have my LinkedIn. I'm hoping to publish it. So I'm in the process of publishing that thesis. So just to say I'm on LinkedIn. My LinkedIn is Pravjoth Gill, an associate at CIPD. So stay tuned for that.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant. I will include a link to your LinkedIn page in the show notes of this episode. So if you're listening to us right now and you want to go and have a look at Pravjoth's LinkedIn profile, then it's only a click away and hopefully that research will be published and you can read the full dissertation. So, yeah, thanks ever so much for joining me and thank you for tuning into today's episode. Hopefully you found it interesting and it's given you some insights into the world of being disabled and some of the challenges that disabled people face in trying to progress their careers and get into senior leadership positions. And what I really liked was this notion around co-creation. Co-creation is really important when it comes to disability inclusion. And if you remember that phrase, nothing about us without us. If you are designing any disability inclusion training, make sure that you are doing so with disabled people, whether that's disabled people within your organization. So if you're very lucky enough to have a a disability employee, network or resource group, it's obviously often good to collaborate with them. There might be disabled individuals or disabled leaders within your business that might be able to help and contribute.

Toby Mildon: If you don't have access to that kind of expertise in-house, then try and find that experience and that expertise externally, people who've got both professional and lived experience. So thank you for tuning into this episode and I look forward to seeing you on the next episode, which will be coming out very soon. Take care. Bye-bye. 

Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to The Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website @milden.co.uk.