Aishwarya 00:10
Welcome to the book people. I'm your host, Aishwarya. a writer, a book editor, Podcast Producer, and the head of originals at bound. In this past week in video podcast, I demystify the publishing and creative industries, and uncovered the biggest opportunities and challenges for writers in India today. Season two is starting with such a banger episode, and I'm very excited about it. Today I'm talking to only numbers refer to the head of originals at Spotify. So the audio industry has been growing exponentially in India over the last few years. And it is supposed to grow by five times by 2030. Right now, India is the third largest market for podcasts around the world. And we are witnessing huge international companies like Spotify, who are focusing right now on podcasts and on audiobooks. So only number three is right in the middle of all of this, right. He's leading the originals and content development at Spotify in India. And in the past, he has worked at Bloomberg TV, Hotstar, and salad. Right? So combination of isn't journalism, OTT and now podcasts. Today, he's here to talk about where the audio industry is headed, what Spotify his plan is for the next few years, and how can you as writers, and as content creative professionals take advantage of this opportunity. So let's dive in. So Hi, Nate, welcome to the book people Season Two. With you have your separate section and charts for listeners. You're creating platforms like anchor for creators to record the podcast on. And of course, you're creating your own original podcast as well. So I'm really looking forward to getting into really the mind of how Spotify works and how Spotify things. And I want to know, you know, what is the opportunity that you are seeing in the world of audio content? And in books as well?
02:11
Yeah, once again, thanks for having me on the podcast. Excited to be here. I think it's only my second podcast recording, which is ironic, given that I've been in the podcasting space for almost seven years now.
Aishwarya 02:24
Yeah, I just assumed that you must have done a ton of these recordings. And you're now a pro at you know, coming for these interview podcast.
02:30
No, no, I'm always behind the scenes, right. So I'm never in front of the camera or the mic. So but it's good to be here. I so let me before I get into what, what I do at Spotify. Let me talk about Spotify and his journey a little bit in the last three and a half, almost four years, right. I was employee number one in the podcast team. And now we're a much larger sort of team. So I helped set up the business. I handle all of the originals and most of the content that comes in so that's across languages, right. So Hindi, English, Tamil, Telugu, Bengali. Soon, we'll have new languages that come in as well. So the main goal is to is to get more people to listen to the content that that we consume. Right. As you know, the podcasting space is still new, its nascent, it's grown a whole bunch since the pandemic, but we're still sort of, we're still at that cusp, right at that tipping point. So my my role is to get content commissioned and acquired that doesn't necessarily exist in the podcasting space, right. So for instance, we have a pretty popular podcast called Husker boss. It was one of the first podcasts that we commissioned, produced by our fabulous partners at m&m Taki. So which is headed by mantra. The the concept of thriller podcast didn't exist that much in India. Since then, we've done a lot but the idea was, okay, if this sort of content does work in the video space, can we find some sort of adjacency in audio? Right. So and we did a cricket podcast with Gaurav Kapoor with a we did a sex and dating podcast and we've done a whole bunch since then. Right? So the idea is to, to, to not just get users onto the platform, but create interesting stories and that people will get associate Spotify with right that's the end goal. When people see a trailer or hear a trailer, they should be like, Okay, I want to go listen to this podcast. What is a podcast? Right? Why should I go listen to it? So it's a it's a lot of this sort of thing that that I'm that my sort of thinking always goes into across languages. And when we go into the language this year, we've we've done Bengali, Tamil, Telugu. We've done a little bit of my LM. So how does that change? Right? So can you take learnings from one market and take it to another market? A little bit? Yes. But these markets also different like what? The cliched thing, but where a continent in itself, so different cultures and stuff. So how do you apply learnings but then understand cultures of those specific languages, right and cater to that. But ultimately, it's all user first, right? And that takes a shift in thinking, so I'm always on a daily basis thinking, okay, will this interest user so I need to step back a little bit and say, Okay, if this content is coming in, in, let's say, Tamar, is this interesting for Tamil user who is listening to music who may not have streamed a podcast? Sort of a roundabout answer, but that's holistically what I sort of do at Spotify?
Aishwarya 05:50
No, no, that makes perfect sense. And, you know, it's very interesting, the experimental nature of your work, because, you know, I was, when you were talking, I was comparing it to how the publishing of books work, you know, and what you're doing is obviously, a lot of what editors do as well, whether looking at readers first, and they're thinking about, okay, would this be interesting? Worried or whether in this particular language or you know, this genre of book, would it be that the exciting, but it's very interesting to see how you know, this podcast or a new medium, there's just so much more scope for that kind of experimentation, which I feel with books, at this point, there is a little bit of acquire knowledge, in a sense already, where you're like, Okay, we know that this genre works for these people. And this is kind of the audience, whereas I think there's a lot of that interplay of, okay, if this kind of a book works, would that work in an audio format? And if this kind of thing works on Ott, would that work in audio format? So that's some experimentation that I'm also seeing with my work, which I think is very exciting. So what does a day in your life look like? What do you do on a day to day basis? That's wonderful.
06:56
Okay, so I can give you the short answer the long answer, I think I'll go for the long answer, because we have podcasting. So at Spotify, it's, it's evolved for me. Right? So a lot of what we're trying to do from a content perspective is and you mentioned experimenting, right? For me, that is at the heart of what we do till we reach that tipping point. And where, where were maybe what video streaming was in India, maybe six, seven years back, right? Will we get to that stage? I don't know, right? Where we are, we need to find our space in in the whole media market. But that's something that that always excites me, right, the experimentation part of it. And that's super important to what we do, because we're building the market as we go along. Right? So the number one thing and you sort of took the words out of my mouth is what can we do new, right, I'm always thinking of what are the different things that we can do. And since it's my role as a mix of creative plus business, I need to look at numbers. So the, one of the other things that I really look at and I'm, I've become passionate about is looking at data, right? And I'll always tell all of my colleagues that I work with, we need to be data informed, not data led, right, which means, let's say 50% of it is what we're looking at from okay, this genre is doing well, these podcasts are doing well. But that creative sort of instinct, right? I, that is super important for me. So I mentioned basketballs earlier in the conversation. That podcast, it was really interesting how it sort of got commissioned, right? We had no data to back it up. I had heard this, like a trailer of this podcast when I was at my previous company. And when I joined Spotify said, Okay, I want to hear it right. And and mantra was really surprised. And he was like, Why do you want to? Like it's dead? That why do you want to do this podcast? I said, No, I want to hear the podcast, the trailer again. He came to the office, we heard it together. And I was like, I want to do the show. Right? There was no data. There was nothing. It was like, okay, so and that's one of our most successful podcasts, right? So I think that create one is data. So looking at directions in which we can go, but I also keep creative blocks in my calendar to make sure that I'm thinking of stuff. It's easier said than done. Because sometimes it's like, oh, you know what a great ideas just gonna come to me, but I've realized that's not how it works. You need to write down all of the ideas that are not so great so that you can get it out of your system. So that 10,000 hours thing right, where you're like, constantly, you're looking to improve. So that's, I think, two chunks of my day, but also then working with the team to figure out okay across languages, and it's super into Seeing because Hindi is we've done a lot more of Tamil we see a lot of growth in, but different from Hindi, obviously. So the approaches are very different. Telugu is is a massive market. But there is not much talk happening. So how do we sort of spur content creation there? Bengali there is a lot of content that's there. But the audience is much smaller. So different challenges, right? So it's important that I'm also getting an overview of what's happening, and trying to figure out okay, what are the stories we can tell? And we have this. So it's not just content that we're putting out, we're trying to figure out, why are we different from say, like, why is someone choosing to spend time with us? Now, there might be two, two parts to it. One might be okay, because they have the time. So let's say you're going to work in an Uber in an auto and you're like, Okay, I want to listen to Sunday. I can't watch something. But we also want to get people to lean into our content, right to say that, okay, this is something that I don't feel like watching this. I want to listen to Sunday, I want to learn something, right? Yeah,
Aishwarya 11:06
you want to get all of us I think we're getting into podcasts want to get into a space where podcasts are not just convenient. But people are intentionally choosing to consume podcasts over say, reading a book or watching something like on the screen, right.
11:24
I think that's why music and podcasts are slightly different, where it might be background listening, and music. And obviously, you're listening to Caesaria on loop or you're listening to Rage Against the Machine on loop. Right. But with podcasts, we have that opportunity to get people I think this for me at least there's a lot of this knowledge and learning that comes in I listen to podcasts because I want to learn something right? How do I productivity? Or how do I manage my time? Or how do I be less anxious, right? So there is a huge opportunity there. The other thing that I didn't speak about is we don't have enough local content. Right? So while Spotify has 4.2 million podcasts, the local podcast is still growing, right? So I don't necessarily mean only local language. So it could be this podcast as well. But relevant for listeners here in India, right. And that is extremely important. Because while we may choose to consume something that is from, let's say, the US or the UK, or Australia, we also want people telling stories from here, right? Like about books here about, you know, movies here, all of that is really important.
Aishwarya 12:35
We're seeing a lot of need for sort of local or regional content, whether it's languages, whether it's the stories themselves, in all mediums, and in books as well with translations, slowly sort of readers are very actively choosing to read translation. So that is definitely an interesting to tap into. But you know, I want to also talk about a little bit about your background, because like you mentioned, so you have gotten a diploma in journalism. I checked, and then you and it was a walk across mediums, right? Because you've submitted, I've seen your work done, Ott, now you're working with audio. So what is the opportunity in storytelling that you are seeing right now in India, especially for writers or story creators, storytellers who want to figure out what kind of story should they be telling? And then what,
13:29
now is the time to start creating, right? We see that across like, sometimes I look back and I was like, Man, why did I do that diploma in journalism, I should have honed my skill as a creator, I would have been so much more professional, and made so much more money. It's not that easy. Granted, but I think the opportunity is huge. And, and the fact that in content in general, right, there is a lot of space for to find your audiences. And I think that's, that's the key. A lot of people go into it thinking, okay, you know, what, I'm just going to copy what someone does, and I'm talking about in general before I get into podcasts, right? They, they see someone doing something, and they're like, Okay, I want to do that, rather than getting inspired and finding their voice. Right. The other thing is, India is a unique market in the sense that we were so different because we speak in like two three languages we understand, you know, there's a lot of that that's going on. So we may think in English, but we may consume in Hindi or Tamil or, you know, different languages that happen, right? So it's important that we find our own voice, right. And that's when it comes to podcasting as well. We have this because we've seen, you know, the cereals and gimlets. And all of these guys doing well. We immediately think okay, that's what we should be doing in India, right. Whereas India sort of unique unique market and, and has its own way of dealing, right. So the way I sometimes equate it is with let's say UPI, right or with Amazon Prime delivery, right in India, you order something now things have started lining up at our doorstep in 30 minutes, right. But this is a problem or a solution that we took from somewhere, and we made it our own right. If your Amazon delivery doesn't come in a day, you're like, Man, why is it taking so long? Right? Whereas we used to wait such a long time. So I think that's important, right, like taking what podcasts are globally, but making it ours. So while you will find stuff that you can do like a true crime podcast, right to crime is huge. The world over. Whereas the way we might do it might be really different, right? Maybe crime we do or maybe we fictionalized it. So the way we tell our stories need to be how each of those languages want those stories told, right? There is a lack of supply of content, right? So platforms, users are all looking for Bullseye content, right? What is the content that I want to listen to that I want to watch? So while there will be a whole bunch of content, and a lot of this, the way users consume is also changing, right? You would have let's say, 10 years back, a Beyonce album would drop and it would be the biggest thing, right? I'm not saying the queen is still the queen. But you you it still sort of fragmented, right? Because there's so much music discovery happening. So while I might like Beyonce and might listen to her album, I'm not repeat, repeat listening for as much right? I'm listening to other stuff as well. So the same thing comes when it's content creation, right? writers can now not just right, you can create and you spoke about anchor, I can become a podcaster. Right? If I wanted to, I can just record, it's become so easy now, especially thanks to the pandemic, where you can record you can put up stuff, it's not just about only writing content, you can write for audio, but you can also create, right. So I think that is an opportunity that will come and the kind of storytelling also changes with the medium. So while we think that ha This is fine, and video, it can work in audio as well. We've seen that that's not the case, right? So it also becomes interesting for people to Okay, I can't just write the way I'm writing for, let's say, television or for video streaming. But I can you know, I need to change it around because people can't see. And this is something we see from let's say, we did a podcast called virus 2062 with Ali Fazal and Richard Shada, and one of the thing that things that Ali said was, he's a theatre actor, right? So he was like, I couldn't use my face, right? Suddenly, I had to only use my voice. And that was such a challenge. But it was so exciting, right and early in which I was so excited to do it. And that's what was so different for them. Right? And that's why they want to do so if, if Bollywood stars can do it, it's the same across, right? How do you adapt yourself to that medium? And how do you then tell your story and doesn't have to be the same story? There's opportunity to tell multiple stories?
Aishwarya 18:17
Yeah, I think it really hit on another question that I was going to ask you, which is, you know, can coming from a very like, say, book or written content to audio? Can it be the same? Or does it have to be changed a little bit, because you know, that writers have for us a lot, because, like, we work with a lot of writers who are, who essentially think of themselves as book writers, right. But they're writing for books very like storytelling in a written format that you expect someone to read. So the moment we have to sort of, say, like for podcasts or write for audio, that shift is also something that is so important and has to be learned. And, you know, it's something that we are also exploring a lot with us, you know, working with a lot of writers right now to create audio content for podcasts. And that journey in itself is also very interesting. So I'm not talking about sort of audio and books. I also saw that Spotify is now getting into audiobooks, right? I think it's going to do that in India as well. So what does that also mean for like, the listeners and viewers of this podcast who are themselves who are readers were writers and listeners have books? What can they expect from Spotify audiobooks.
19:35
So Spotify audiobooks, right now has rolled out in in the US market. So that's something that we have put out access to 300,000 titles. Earlier this year, we had acquired, sorry, last year we were acquired find a way which is a audiobook platform. So that's how we're sort of powering a lot of it. We're still working on new market including India. So that's a work in progress. So more updates on that later, hopefully. But it's it's important, right? It's important in the overall ecosystem. Audio is what we do. That's, that's all we do, right? Unlike a lot of our competitors, we're doing a whole bunch of things. This is where we want to sort of complete this ecosystem, right. So you don't have to go anywhere else. It sort of sits in between podcasts and music, in the sense that the way things are licensed to the the commercial structures are all slightly different. With podcasting, it's completely free, right. So I'm a podcaster, I'm putting up a podcast, I can go on to anchor recorded on my phone, it's up on Spotify, and in three minutes, right, and other platforms in a day or two. With music. It's sort of like a closed ecosystem where, you know, you sort of go through labels, the distribution companies, and then it comes on to Spotify. Audiobooks, it's in between, right. And that's something that Spotify is in the process of trying to figure out. And also because markets are different. So it's a huge globally, it's a huge market in India, it's a huge market. I believe it's also an untapped market in India with all of the languages that come in. So there's a massive opportunity, which sort of, you know, you see dollar signs there where if you can monetize it well, and if you can approach it well, but yeah, that I think that will become sort of revenue stream across the whole lifecycle, right. So from publishers, from authors from platforms, because there will be an going back to that last question, then that's the opportunity and content as well, right? There is a huge opposite opportunity that that we see in the audiobook space, we are working towards figuring out how that will translate into the Indian market, because of the complexities. But yeah, it isn't a super exciting space, not just from a platform point of view. But if I were an author or a creator, you know, in the years to come, it's going to be pretty big.
Aishwarya 22:09
Yeah. From a listener perspective, what would you say really, the difference between like a podcast or an audiobook is for someone who wants to sort of choose between the two? Because this is again, a question that we get a lot because ultimately, they're both audio. So how would you distinguish that for listeners?
22:27
I would divide it into two, right one, sort of the content part of it and the product part of it. So again, in the US, we for these titles that we've rolled out, we have gone according to industry standards and sort of figured out, okay, you want to bookmark if you want to share one part of it. A lot of the features that audiobooks have that do that are not necessarily then podcast because of lengths. Right. So so those are things that there are currently that we have teams working on. from a content standpoint, again, audiobooks have been approached in a certain way. And they've been approached from because there are, you know, incumbent sort of competitors who have set the market, right, the way we are looking at it is, and I'll be honest, right? Unless you're really interested in, in a book or an author audiobooks can get boring, right, in the sense that, you know, it's just, let's say, I'm reading an audiobook, hopefully not. But let's say I am reading an audiobook. And it just one voice that sort of goes on for a while, right. The way we want to approach it is how do we how do we make it slightly more engaging, right, so when you come back to leanin content, it's not just now if it's, give you my example, right, if it's Ryan Holliday, who I'm a fan of, and he's talking about stoicism, and he's reading the book, then it's interesting if it's Stephen Fry, reading Harry Potter, it's interesting, Shashi Tharoor, you know, all those examples make sense. But otherwise, you need to figure out a way to keep people engaged, right. So what are the titles that are relevant to those audiences? From a production standpoint? And from a market standpoint, right? What are the different things that that they want to listen to? Those are things that we'll start testing out, like, does fiction work as much? Is it more nonfiction content? Is it learning content? Is it productivity, all of that those are things that that we're sort of figuring out, but I would divide them broadly into in these two buckets of product and content?
Aishwarya 24:33
Yeah, I know what you said about you know, Stephen Fry, voicing something is very interesting, because I also had this realization just yesterday, I was reading I was listening to an audiobook after a really long time. And as someone who's been working with podcasts a lot down because of my work. It was an old audio book from 2016. It experience was so completely different from what I think I expected. I As an audio content consumer at this point, and it was pretty dull in that sense, when I feel like audiobooks are missing that next step of you know, how do you turn something into an a storytelling experience? Beyond it simply being a book that's read out? So I Yeah,
25:22
yeah, doesn't have to be boring, right? Like, that's my whole point. If, if you have such the content is there right, the material is there, it's the way it needs to be presented. And use you said it slightly. hesitantly, you said dull but it is dull, right? Like, you have such interesting stories. And you don't necessarily have the time to read through it. Audiobooks, actually great way of of consuming that content. And you can change speeds, you can go to 1.5, which you can do a podcast as well. But if only it was approached in a slightly different way, it can be a lot more immersive. And that's my biggest pet peeve with with audiobooks, currently is that it needs to be especially for Indian sensibilities, right, like when we're bringing it here. And I'm not just talking about local languages, but even maybe for English, like how we approach it is, is super important. Because otherwise what happens is, let's say a couple of new users come onto it and say, hey, I want to listen to do epic shut by Uncle barbecue, right. And if it's not uncle, that's voicing it. And it's like, just this random voiceover that sort of reading it out, you've lost them forever, right? You're trying to create lifetime value, you could have that person coming in every month and listening to it. But if you don't present it properly, and as it is, you know, you have the psychological layer that Oh, my God, this is nine hours, I need to listen to this. So those are, I absolutely agree with you in the in the approach that it's had. And that I think needs some changing. Yeah, and
Aishwarya 26:57
I find it very interesting, because you know, a lot of readers like very loyal book, readers are still very hesitant to try audio, or, you know, like, listen to books in the audio format. Because I think that is one of the big gaps where as a reader, when I'm reading a book, I'm sort of reading it out loud, in my mind in my voice. So in a sense, there is tone, there is personality, there is humor, which I feel like when I'm just listening to it in the audiobook format is often lost quite a bit. So it's very interesting to see how maybe also there is that potential for audiobooks to evolve into something more engaging. There's also this criticism at large against audio content that, you know, it can be more like superficial or it focuses more on entertainment, rather than making you think, which I guess like books do more or, you know, books provide deeper engagement, sort of one of the criticisms that I have heard of written versus audio content. So what do you think about that? How do you respond to that?
28:05
Hopefully, I'm not responding on on part of the audio industry. So let me just respond on behalf of myself. I think it needs to be made interesting, right? And if, again, if it's anecdotal, I will take it with a pinch of salt. If it's data lead, then I will look at it seriously, because that is something that that I believe we need to do. Right? And it depends on what sort of content so there's a bunch of layers to it, right? Sometimes what happens when we see this on the platform as well, when users come onto the platform, they don't find what they're looking for. Right? So and it's a it's a factor of many, many sorts of things, right? It's an evolving medium, there's suppliers, content, all of that. But what happens is, let's say they come on to this podcast, and they listen to it. And there's they're like, Okay, who's this guy talking about something? Superficially, I'm not interested in hearing it again, you've lost the person, right. So I think it's important to to have enough content pieces that also hit different cultural interest groups, right. So I don't necessarily agree that that there is in the scope to deep dive because I think podcasts allow you to do that. It depends on what sort of content you enjoy. Right? So let's say revisionist history with Malcolm Gladwell, or the daily stoic that I listen to. Those are all things that actually go pretty deep. Now, lack of local content is a challenge. And that's something that we as a platform are working on. And I know there's a lot of work that's being done in the audio space. But I think that's something that that is is a factor of many things. Right. So I wouldn't necessarily put a blanket statement to say that. Yeah, you know, books, books have been around for. I mean, there's, it's it's not a fair comparison. Right. So people are also used to it a lot more. It's also a little bit of habit building. Okay, when I find the right podcast, you know, is that sort of gateway into finding other like minded podcasts that that I would like, right. So I wouldn't necessarily completely agree, but I think there is work to be done on the content side of it to figure out okay, if users do feel that way, what can we do to, you know, go a little bit beyond just scratching the surface, because that's something we can do right video, or radio, there are a lot of limitations that come with it. We you and I can talk for an hour. And, you know, hopefully, people will still be listening. But you're all of those things we, we have the liberty to do right now, because we're in that experimenting phase. So yeah, it's on all of these content providers to also say that, okay, how do I reach out? How do I deep dive a little bit more, depending on what the subject is?
Aishwarya 31:13
You're absolutely correct. Because you know, what you said about there being different types of content in each format like that, there must be there is a lot of what people would call fluff or superficial content in books, as much as there is, you know, really sort of, like the search based stories and, you know, sort of resource based books, and the same goes in podcasts as well. Right. I think it's just one of the criticisms that does kind of emerge from what people are maybe seeing more of like, what is more, say, popularly available, are what they can see people consuming. But if you are looking for I mean, if you make the effort to look for exactly the kind of content that you want to consume, is available, I think there is a little bit of that as well with podcasts where those systems of how people search for something, right, like with books that at this point, a little bit more established. In India, where, okay, if I'm looking for a book in a specific category that does the specific thing or talks about the specific community or subject, I kind of know where to go looking for it, or to look for recommendations, and having a podcast even that is newly emerging, where it is still difficult to find what people want to consume. And like you said, there is a gap of sort of local content that is still being created, which definitely, you and I can work on. For content. Yes.
32:43
Can I respond to that? I think I think the way we look at, again, as a platform and in general content, right? And that's why I'm saying those that Bullseye content or culturally relevant content is important because we're trying to hit certain groups right? Content in general is subjective. Right. So our books, right. It's like and what you and I make all fluff there might be a readership for right and the same with content. I'll give you an example. My My in laws were watching this movie called bubbly bouncer. Okay with semana, I think. And they were loving it. Right? They were laughing at the jokes. And I was just like, what's going on? Like, like, what are you finding funny, because I even find it funny. But there is an audience for that. Right? But there, there should be content for me. If I want to watch the office, and I can't find that content, then the platform needs to make sure that I discover the content. Right? So I think in general, we need to figure out which content is being made for which audience. And if people can't find the content, then platforms like us need to do need to figure out how we can get to the user, right? Because user journeys are such where I might come onto the platform, and I might, let's say I share a you recommend a podcast to me, and I'm like, Okay, I should listen to this podcast. And and maybe I like it, right. But then after that, I finished that, and I'm like, okay, I can reach out to you. So let me figure out what podcasts I can listen to. And then I don't find it when I drop off, right? And all I see is, you know, let's say podcast that I don't like that. Maybe, let's say Bollywood podcasts or stuff that I don't listen to right. And then so that's an issue, right? So I think it's important as, as a platform, such as Spotify, as well, that we are catering to all interest groups. So if you're a book nerd, you should be able to come on to Spotify and you should be able to find these 10 to 20 podcasts. If you love Kollywood, you should be able to come and listen to a podcast right? So I think that's important when it comes to content in the sense that we need to program for all different kinds of audiences, which is easier said than done. especially when you're commissioning and creating content. But I think eventually, that's where you want to be as a platform, you want everyone to be on the platform and say, Oh, you're listening to this sort of content. I hate that. But I'm listening to this right, and I can find it. So we want everyone to be on the platform and sort of find whatever suits their palate.
Aishwarya 35:19
No, absolutely. And I think that, you know, in addition to that, that word of mouth or sort of recommendations, which kind of happens over time with everyone just kind of, you know, recommending podcasts, each other chatter a lot with books now, right, like there are influencers or people who solely sort of folk from the time on an unopened simply reading and reviewing and recommending, like that kind of a culture, I think, also needs to and hopefully will slowly evolve around podcasts, which is just discussions, right, and sort of listeners just engaging beyond simply listening to a podcast, to what they liked, what they disliked what worked, what didn't work. And I think that in itself will also slowly get them more actively involved in podcasts. Because right now, yeah, for me as well, right? If I really love a podcast, and I go, and I recommend it to all of my friends, which I absolutely do, and like, you know, yeah, I know them into listening. There are there are two steps direct one is just getting them to choose to listen to a podcast. And then the second is okay, you listen to the podcast, when you listen to this specific podcast, I think that first step has been overcome. And then the second step kind of becomes easier. And everyone is already consuming that and it's a part of,
36:38
it's also habit building, right, like you said. So one is supply of content, which I'm coming back to, which is okay, you may recommend three podcasts to me, I may like one of them. But then you may say, Okay, you didn't like these two, here's five more. But I know those five don't exist, right. Yes. So I think it's, it's it's important that there are enough choices to to focus on right now. That's how podcasts right at least that's how I figured out the podcast that I like, right? I'm like, I have friends who are like, Hey, have you heard this podcast? I'm like, no. Okay, I need to check it out. But I think as recommendations improve, as metadata improve, as we learn more from what users want, it might be easier to sort of surface the right kind of podcasts to those particular people.
Aishwarya 37:27
Absolutely. Okay, so I have the most important question for you. Are you a book reader?
37:33
Yes, absolutely. I'll be honest, I try. I, I have audiobooks, subscriptions. I have books, physical books, I have my Kindle. I have my Kindle on my phone. So I'm trying to multitask. But yeah, I try my best. I'm trying to create a routine and sort of figure out if I can do 16 to 20 pages a day. still a work in progress. But yeah, I do. I do try and read as much as I can.