21. Working In Publishing VS. In Audio With Prerna Vohra, Content Acquisition Lead at Kuku FM

Guest host Tara Khandelwal talks to Prerna Vohra about her recent move into the audio industry after over 10 years in publishing.

What are the main differences between working in publishing and audio? How are editors and publishers especially well qualified for work in the audio industry?

Prerna Vohra has a Masters in Publishing from the City University London and more than 10 years in the publishing experience. Her career included being an editor and publisher with some of the top names in publishing like Rupa, Hachette and Bloomsbury. Since July 2022, Prerna is now exploring the audio space with her new role at Kuku FM. Find her on LinkedIn. 

Tara is the Founder and Managing Director of Bound. She has previously worked at Penguin India, SheThePeople.TV, and BloombergQuint. Her writing has appeared in CondeNast Traveller, Scroll, and Midday, among others. Follow her on Linkedin, book a consultation call with her or drop her an email at Tarakhandelwal.bound@gmail.com.

Bound is one of India’s leading storytelling companies that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Produced by Aishwarya Javalgekar
Edited by Kshitij Jadhav

Transcript

00:00

The contract negotiations and all that, but that's the more like mundane part of the job. So we'll get into that the book is done, then it's out and you can't do anything with it that they used to that will give everybody anxiety for years. I know. He turned in this manager that had to be completely overhauled because it was set in the in the world of publishing. So, you know, we are incredibly constructive on that. So I would write really trashy romance. But

00:33

yeah, yeah. But I would I wouldn't write so.

00:47

Welcome to the book people, I'm assure you as a writer, book editor, Podcast Producer, and the head of originals at bomb in this heartbreaking podcast, I demystify the publishing and creative industries, and uncover the biggest opportunities and challenges for writers in India today.

01:08

So this episode of the book, people once again has a guest host. So Tara Condell vile, who is the founder of bound and has been an editor for 10 years, is talking to prey in Nevada. Sabrina has worked as a commissioning editor and a publisher in different publishing houses. Over the years, she has worked at Rupa, Hachette and Bloomsbury and recently she made the switch to the audio industry and started working as the content acquisition lead at cocoa FM. So Brianna talks about how the cocoa FM model works, why she decided to make this transition from the publishing industry to the audio industry? And how has that changed the way that she interacts with or the relationships that she has with writers and creators? And finally, she shares what are the different opportunities that exist for people who want to enter both of these industries? And what are the pros and cons of each? So let's do it. Welcome, trainer. Hi. Welcome to the book ripple. lovely to be here. Yes, yes. And I've been following your journey. For a while we were in touch when you were the publisher at Bloomsbury for a couple of books. And then I saw that you've started this really exciting new journey at cuckoo FM, which is one of India's largest audio OTT platforms, and you're a content acquisition lead.

02:34

So you know, as somebody who also loves books, like bookshelf, you know, right here, loves books, loves reading has worked in the world of books, I'm also now moving into the audio podcasting space, because I feel there's so many synergies, and really excited to talk to you about you know, your journey, you know, why the transition? What's the difference? What are the similarities? So yeah, let's get started. So you are now content acquisition lead at cuckoo FM, after working, you know, for a long time and publishing, so what exactly does your job entail?

03:13

So, um, it's a lot of different things really. So one thing you have to understand about the startup space and in the Indian market is that it's changing constantly. So one of the mandates is basically to keep up with that change, you know, bring in the content that people need, at, at the time that they need it. So I think at the moment, like my, my mandate is to reach out to, you know, one to Indian and international publishers and agents for regional language rights. But it's also for, you know, figuring out what is working, what kind of content is working based on the data that we have. And, you know, the, we also ask a lot of people what they need. So we do calls with users or listeners and try to understand what what we aren't providing that we can provide. And one of my mandates is also to bring in the content that matches that needs. So it's also outside of audiobooks. It's not just books.

04:18

So it's just, it's just audio content in general.

04:23

And it's also to extract in that vein to explore sort of collaborations with authors and publishers to create, create those original shows, if they don't exist in a book form, then create that show for that listener that has asked for something. So there's a lot of like internal coordination also required. Sometimes if I'm acquiring a big book, then I have to make sure that everybody's on board with it. And everybody understands why we have acquired what we have acquired because we think that it fulfills a need for our end user

05:00

I'm and and then we, you know, we all come to the same page on it. And then we marketed accordingly and we bring it to, to life in regional languages accordingly based on their needs. So, and obviously there's the usual, the contract negotiations and all that, but that's the more like, mundane part of the job. So we'll get into that. Yeah, I mean, you know,

05:25

it's so interesting, because it's what you're saying is very much data driven. And that's a little bit different from the publishing industry where, of course, you get Nielsen figures, you understand what books are doing? Well, but you don't have this real time data, the way that you probably look credibly different. Yes, that was my biggest culture shock to be honest.

05:44

And moved from because from traditional commissioning, which is very sort of gut based, I moved to a completely data based system where all, you know, all decisions were being made, based on what data we had. And, and that is an adjustment. I'm to be honest, still trying to, like, teach myself and I'm learning, you know, but it's been fun. Yeah, I mean, it is completely different. So why, why the shift? You know, why did you think that, you know, now's the time. And obviously, there's so many similarities when it comes to making content working with creators, you know, what's a good piece of content? All of those things remain the same. But what is the what is sort of the what was your thinking behind going into audio?

06:30

So it was a few things. I think, like now, I was in traditional publishing for about 10 plus years, like across you know, with I started with Rupiah and Alif, then I moved on to Hachette, India for a few years, then I was a Bloomsbury for a few years. So like, I've, I started from a copywriter copy story role. So you know, so I've seen the entire traditional publishing process, from the ground up, you know, end to end, essentially. So, I felt as though I had reached a point where obviously, each also brings a different perspective to their books, and working with each other is very different. But I was I wanted to sort of expand the my skills a little bit and learn a little bit more. And I also think that, you know, within traditional publishing, that is a stopping point to growth, like you stay within a certain role after you reach a publisher or senior commissioning role, then you stay in that role for several years before you can, you know, go ahead to say heading a list or, you know, something similar. So I feel like it has, it has reached its plant or to an extent, and I think the way that Indians are consuming content is changing very rapidly. Like with the growth of Ott, you've seen it over the years, we've all we've all seen it with the you know, with video editing growing so fast, and audio is growing as fast. So, so I think it was an exciting time to kind of make that shift and understand, okay, I have the certain set of skills and how can I apply it to a different sort of parallel medium,

08:16

but also very different, you know, I think that drove me more than anything else, though. I want the motivation to learn something new, but also to understand this new rapidly growing space. So the new odd space and this opportunity came along and, and Coco is growing so fast. And you know, it has like, really well known investors behind it, and the Nilekani, the PT behind pub. G. So, you know, so I wanted to kind of see if I could be at the forefront of this huge audio growth in an audio oddity growth in India. Yeah, for sure. I think it isn't needed with so much of, you know, what you're saying. And the way that we consume is, is so different. And that's why even even I wanted to sort of expand because good content is good content, you know, and the creative process is similar and all of these skills that we have as editors, they are applicable across formats. I think writers in general theaters are also thinking more format agnostic nowadays as well, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So a very simple question. What is a day in your life at cuckoo FM look like? Can you walk us through that?

09:31

Sure. Um, yes, it's very different. I mean, one, like the startup timelines are very different from say, traditional publishing timeline where it's like, you know, you get a manuscript and then you have about six months for it to go press. So, so that was a huge, that's been a huge adjustment, but in a good way. So my, I mean, we were completely remotely so and it's, you know, it's about 200 people coordinating everything on Slack and

10:00

You know, on calls, so, so a lot of my day involves calls with my teams and parallel teams to, to coordinate our efforts towards whatever content that we are promoting that week, or we are buying into or, you know, so a lot of that involves multiple meetings and calls, obviously, now I'm, you know, I've been reaching out to more and more agents and publishers, so I've been either, you know, reaching out to them

10:34

by email, or I have been following up with the people I've already shot to. So a lot of that is a lot of my time is spent doing that. But it's also kind of spent going through the data that we have to figure out, you know, if there is something that people are asking for, that we don't have, and making those lists, and then getting those books or that those content pieces on board. So I think remote working has its own

11:05

advantages and disadvantages. So I've been so it's been interesting to kind of join a new company entirely remotely.

11:13

And and, you know, build those, like, office relationships, I would say, remotely, because it's a totally different ballgame. So yeah. So yeah, that's, that's typically what my day looks like. It's it's a lot of coordination. And, but it's also a lot of ideation. So it's fun. Yeah, that sounds fun. So So what is the data telling you? What kinds of things you know, are you looking for what kinds of things our listeners have, you know, shows audiobooks, wanting more of

11:48

our mandate is essentially to improve access of content across Indian languages, to those who don't have that access in, you know, in the content that's available in English. So we want to solve that access problem, right? People want to read these books or want to listen to this, everything things like that have been produced in English, but they just don't have that available in in Hindi or Tamil or Telugu, Malayalam. You know, so one of our main mandates is to solve that, and audiogon like, doesn't take up as much data as videos. So it's, you know, easier to penetrate to two and three cities. So people we've seen generally want to better themselves. So we, you know, so our focus is very strongly on like nonfiction, and on not just not just self improvement, so there's a lot of like, there's a lot of personal finance, there's a lot of self help. Mindfulness. There are, like, for instance, a lot of like UPSC students who consume biographies historical content, that are shopkeepers who are consuming Google FM's content on like, growing their business. So, you know, understanding how to market and how to,

13:17

how to understand GST, like small things, you know, and you know, that there was a really interesting user case with this

13:28

person who worked in the railway offices, and he wanted to, you know, proceed, like, he wanted to grow in his career. So, he is learning soft skills, you know, how to how to dress better how to, how to learn English, like the learning English is a huge thing. So, it's a lot of, it's a lot of betterment, a lot of how to earn more money, or how to better their lives in any sort of way. So our content is tailored to that. That's been our learning so far. But it's also like, there's, there's also things that are relevant, that's happening in pop culture is like, for instance, for instance, a poignant Salvan was a huge hit for us in the middle when the movie release because the books available. And, and that was a big hit. So it depends. There's, for instance,

14:25

the Chernobyl which is which was it just a big hit for us in Malayalam, and

14:33

the book How to Make Money With breakout trading is a big hit in Hindi. So you know, so it's different languages have different needs. And and we've been trying to kind of fulfill that. So yeah, so you know, we we don't do very, we don't do short content. So we do about 100 minutes is our normal show.

15:00

All.

15:01

And we've seen that people gravitate to like well told stories, good narration, you know. And it's it's people want to learn something so that whatever time that they're spending on Google is spent on learning something, it's sort of middle ground that you have to find, like edutainment. Yeah. Yeah. Entertainment. Yeah, that's a good.

15:25

No, it makes a lot of sense. And I think even in traditional publishing, you know, the mandate has been towards nonfiction. Obviously, the demand is very different. This is very common English language publishing. And now you're in, you know, catering to tier two, tier three cities with a lot of regional language focus, and you're acquiring content for that. But generally, I feel for writers and for creators, nonfiction, and self help is a good,

15:53

good way to go. So what you do essentially is you find, you know, you plug in the gaps, and, and then it sort of gets translated out into these different languages after you acquire it. Am I correct? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I, you know, being like an English language reader, I saw when Rupani SS book, whole numbers and half truths, which is what data can tell us about India. And I absolutely love that concept. And I'm reading it right now. And I saw that you acquired it.

16:27

Yeah. So So what was I want to know, if we take that as an example, you know, what led to the decision? What was the process and acquiring it? What's the plan for the book?

16:38

So, um, the process of acquiring it is very simple one, I had read the book and I, so it's a sort of, it's a parallel commissioning role, in a sense. So I also thought that it would work well for our target market, because it works not just well, for the people for UPSC aspirants, because it's, you know, straight data, and there's, you know, actual information about India, and that, that those don't open exams, but it's also for people. And we've seen that there's a lot of curiosity about India. And it's not just origins, but there's a lot of years you've got, where we are going, or who, who we are as people in the content that is consumed on Coco fam. So clearly, like, there's a lot of curiosity among the Hindi and, and the other languages about these things. And I think that, because this is such an important book, I think this will translate well, for our readers as well. So, you know, we're very excited for it, and to release it at the moment, it's being translated. So, you know, we, we hope to probably release it next year. And also now, I mean, we'll have to, we'll have to plan that out. But we, we have, like, again, that is something that we are trying out, and you know, we think it will work. So we are hoping, hoping for the best, it's so in that sense, it is like, it is like polishing the I mean, I feel like data data can only get you so far, right? There's some things just come out of the blue and just unpredictable and just capture, you know, people's imaginations. That's such a good, you know, piece of content. So you can't predict all of these things. And I think that, you know, it's interesting to also keep the door open for for trial and error as well. That is, yeah, that's the joy of it. I think that there is room for that. Yeah. And it's it's a fun thing, because you see either immediate results, so you can plan accordingly. Okay, you think that something is not working so you tweak the you know, sometimes you tweak the thumbnail a little bit or you tweak the chapter a little bit for it to really pick up so we so you can do all that like there is there is enough flexibility I think, because with publishing it's like okay, you you get the book is done, then it's out and you can't do anything with it. Yeah, that they used to that will give everybody anxiety for years. I know.

19:23

So yeah, so I think I think that is that is a you know, sea change, because you can make those changes. And so last faster. It's a lot lot faster. I don't think you can compare the speed I think,

19:37

you know, because, like in terms of the amount of time it takes to translate and to render it in audio. It's really short compared to the six months yeah, the six months so what do you think, you know, because we spoke about, people are changing the way they consume things. You know that our industry is like, you know that

20:00

have sprung up in the last four years a Kuku. FMS started in 2018. Identity is millions and millions of dollars in funding. So in the view of all of you know, these developments, what do you think now is the role of traditional publishing? And what do you think is the future of books? I know, this is a very loaded question. But I want your take on this future of books is an interesting question. I don't think anybody knows, to be very honest with you, people sitting in the UK in the US who actually have more data than we do, I don't think they know either. And I think the in terms of like, I think they understand that there is a huge, they're sitting on a huge content base. And they are, they now have to sort of make money by pushing this content out and as many forms as possible, because eBooks and audiobooks are growing. And I think publishers, especially the big five, or under understanding that more and more.

20:58

India, by itself is a very, very different market. It's so price sensitive, and it's you know, that that is something that

21:08

absolutely, even you know, even today is absolutely irrelevant, paper costs are going up. So books are being it's very hard to price books slow. And sometimes, you know, it just doesn't work, which is why publishers are moving away from fiction and moving to nonfiction.

21:27

Because I think they feel that

21:30

people are not reading as much or if they're not spending that much, you know, a book fails, by just pricing it up 100 rupees, it's like, if you price up Pricer commercial fiction, which is 399 to 499. I don't think that works, that doesn't work anymore. But publishers are making margins. So I think, I think for for books, especially in India, I think publishers have to realize that that content has to be has to be made available in more forms and languages. And I think that's the only way to grow. Because at this point,

22:13

books are competing with other forms of entertainment. I mean, books are not just competing with books. So you know, if you're if you're if you're a blue three, you're not just competing with BRH you're also competing with Netflix and Hotstar. And, you know, and Nkuku FM's, you know, you are, so if they're, if it's a more collaborative effort, and if you're selling that content across these platforms, then I think there's a way to, for everybody to be happy for authors to make money for publishers to make money. So I think, I think more collaboration is the way to go, I think, for the future of books. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I've been thinking about this so much, you know, what is the future of books, you know, how are creators paid? How are publishers making money?

23:06

You know, what is the difference between, you know, all of these players are making millions of dollars, etc. And I absolutely agree with you that, you know, because the, the amount of content that is that, that these publishers have the juice that they have, and, you know, book writer, somebody who's, who can sit and you know, do that research, who can sit, create words and write long form, you know, those are skills that I feel are so necessary, especially for platforms like, you know, yours, etc. And I feel like there's too much potential that is waiting to be tapped into. So I totally agree that, you know, going across formats, etc, might be interesting for writers speaking about, you know, funding and, you know, a pricing of books and how much authors get paid.

23:57

You know, in sort of this new industry, you know, because we heard a lot about No, writers not getting enough advances, writers, we make very little money. Now, you know, we're in this growth industry of audio content. So how does this money go to the Creator, who is honestly the backbone of any sort of distributor or creative comp? Absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, the thing is that because we work on a royalty based system, like our growth Peters down to, to the creators well, so you know, if your, if what you create, or what you write, is very popular on the platform, it earns a bunch of money and you know, that our creators have earned anything between I mean, like seven live support or so it's, it's more than more than one can I know how many how much joy to pay, of course, because it's like 7.5 and it's much higher with audio content, you know, and

25:00

And, and I was the royalty if you don't mind me asking for audio content? So it varies. But it's it varies between 20 to 30%. But, I mean, but I think it depends on the amount of effort required or aren't. Because if we have to translate, we have to produce like, you know, so. So it would vary, but it's more than the usual standard 7.5% and 10%, that one gets, and our thing is that we want our creators and writers to grow with us. So the more more subscribers we get, the more they grow as well. Because the more more people listen to their content. So it's a very sort of, it's a very collaborative effort in that sense.

25:45

And, you know, we are already at 2 million, and we're growing so fast, we've done like, I think we took so from January to July or so we were at 1 million plus, and in just four months, we've reached another million. So

26:02

how did that happen? How did you sort of like, you know,

26:09

I think we've just been one, like, I think we've just been understanding what people want better, and, you know, sort of creating content accordingly, more more, you know, more thoughtful way. But also, we've been marketing better, and people want to write for us, because we're growing fast. So we're getting better content. So all of that factors into into that growth. And I think it's just going to grow and grow. Because,

26:39

you know, it's not just, it's not just about marketing, because at one point, you want a user to also so fine, you market something and, you know, they download the download the app, but they also have to stay on the app. So and that is, so good content is very important in making that happen. And so it is a collaborative effort at the end of the day, so.

27:02

So I think, I think that's how, like, I think it's just we've just been understanding our target group better. Yeah, that's fantastic. I read that, you know, you have 150,000 plus hours of content in various formats. And with, you know, as you said, there's so much competition,

27:21

you know, you have Spotify, and you know, all these players and other audio OTT platforms, and to get that number, you know, and that whole thing of content is king. So how do people sort of pitch to cuckoo FM? What is the sort of process of,

27:39

you know, like a lead writer, trying to sort of get on this platform.

27:43

So I mean, it's about ideas. So you know, if a leader I don't want to reach out to us with an idea that they have,

27:53

they can absolutely do that. And then we have a team that sort of onboards you, and it takes you through the whole process, it's quite simple, really. And then we create, like, if they if they're writing the whole show, we we have a narrator, we can generate on board, we create the show, so they don't need to create the show for us. While we're also taking on shows that are already made, we are licensing those as well. But if you're creating a new for us, then absolutely, I mean, people should reach out, and we are always looking for new writers is particularly in Hindi and other languages.

28:33

So all translators, you know, good translators are hard to come by, as you know. So. So all they have to do is reach out and you know, we will slot them in and we'll help them find a place and, you know, we have a whole process of this. Yeah, as long as sort of it fits within the mandate and what your listeners want, and it's pitched properly. And all of those things that lives opportunity. How is your relationship with creators? Has it changed because an editor in a publishing house, you know, obviously,

29:07

you know, you're very close to authors, you work with them for six months, as you said, there's a very nice relationship that comes in place, you know.

29:19

And so obviously, you're working with a lot of authors and creators and publishers, etc, in this job as well. So how is like the relationship management part of your job? Has it changed? Is it different,

29:34

just very different. I'm working with fewer individuals now. I'm working with larger publishing houses and you know, while they're also driven by one or two people, but at the end of the day, you have to work across the board with with different people. So it's changed completely. I'm on the other side of the fence now because because I'm no longer

30:00

Within that publishing house, so, so I do I do miss that aspect of working more closely with authors in shaping a book because that is that is not something that I do here.

30:11

But, but again, I'm also learning new things. So, so yeah, so I'm now closer to the publishers that I knew as colleagues

30:23

than I am to authors that I knew. But my aim is to also bring those authors into the fold if they want to write for audio, because it is an absolute, you know, it is it is something that they can mine and they can

30:38

learn more from, you know, that, like, the very few people who choose writing boxes, you know, for their time, yeah, so yeah, so it's a hard thing. Yeah, I think I see like, personally, like, you know, bound, we have so many writers that we're working with, and we're seeing this, you know, interest in, and it was wanting to write for screen or do etc, because there's more money. So one of our writers, Chandra Madonna's she got she didn't, you know, for Audible, she's done a podcast with, she's writing for screen. She's in a book as well. So we're seeing a lot of this happening. And that's an interesting. So this is just a fun question. What is that one book? Or who is that one author?

31:26

That you really cherish? And can you tell us a little bit about, you know, your time and publishing, about sort of onboarding, this one author and what it was like,

31:37

I actually want to shout out

31:41

you know, a couple of people one is

31:44

I worked with this author who wrote this fabulous

31:49

commercial, like it's wrong, calm, but really well done.

31:55

And it basically says her name is Nikita dish Pandey. I work for work with her at her shop. And she turned in this manager that had to be completely overhaul because it was set in the in the world of publishing. So, you know, we are incredibly conjecture about that. So, and a lot of what what was written was a lot of things that she thought happened in publishing were not actually the case and and I think, I think it was this incredibly rewarding to see her take those comments on board and, and turn that manuscript round. And then we were very closely involved in, in the publishing of the book in the in the cover all of that, I think, the best kind of books are the ones where you're very close to the author in every part of the bookmaking process. So So I felt that that was one of my very, you know, I'm, it's, it won't be it's not a book that was a best seller, but it was a very, it was a very lovely book that I'm very happy to have, you know, published and, and, you know, we tried a few things at fantasy as well, we, I worked with Sukanya, Venga, Raghavan for dark things, and that was a lovely fantasy novel that we published. And, and fantasy in that genre is not something that sells very well, in India, people know how to appreciate but it's nice to have tried it. And, and those kinds of things are something that, you know, it'd be fun to try here as well, I'm sure. Our,

33:34

our mandate will keep growing and changing. And it'll be fun to try some new interesting formats here as well. So I think, I think for me, like, as an editor, some of the most, some of the most fun I've had is been just just working with the author on and having authors take feedback, and and then turn around and deliver something that's absolutely incredible. And you're proud of so. So yeah, I think those are my best memories and all the books that have sold really well or, you know, really,

34:11

but, but just the books that that felt like as much mine as yours, I suppose. Yeah, it does sort of end up happening like that, you know, because as an editor, you're such a I call it sort of, like creative companion.

34:26

And it is like that, and the relationship that you build is really lovely. And you feel like it's your own story. But coming to you know, the content mandate changing, you know, there's so much content, you know, do you think there's too much content right now in India? And like, do you think that you know, this boom period of, you know, stories growing and all of this is gonna continue? I don't think there's too much content to be honest, because I'm seeing the regional language side of things and I still think that there is a lot that can be done in this space.

35:00

I'm particularly in nonfiction because

35:03

regional language publishers are not as big as, say, the English language or Hindi language publishers or so. So the content available is still either dated or it's not as well marketed and doesn't reach as many people as it should. And I think that a lot can be done. Still in the region, language space, obviously, film and television will always exist. And there is, you know, there's always that, so cinema will always exist. But, but this is a very different space, like just creating, creating content that one can learn something from or, you know, understand the world better. It's, it's, it's still very far behind, like, in, at least in regional languages, even in even in I think, even in traditional publishing in any English language, that is still there still genres that need to be explored. It's just that I think it's become harder to have people buy into those books or find those books even because bookstores are shutting shop, and, you know,

36:11

people, there's not as much footfall anymore, it's hard to find new books on Amazon.

36:18

bestsellers. And, yeah, I think I agree, like in with regional languages so much, you know, like, even in translation that we can do, there's so many soy in males, I love you know, I love living in India, because, you know, as a creator, as a storyteller, it's just like, the meat, it's so rich, I mean, there's like, so large to sort of tap into that just hasn't been, and that is so exciting, you know, the amount of stories that we have in this country, every corner, is amazing. So I definitely think that, you know, what can we do sort of like to promote?

36:53

You know, one thing is, like, obviously, cuckoo FM is finding these stories translating, you know, really good work into regional languages. So that's a big opportunity. But as publishers, you know, maybe like, module bookstores shut down, and you're seeing the discoverability of new ideas and new content that maybe, you know, can be given to OTT platforms, or, you know, even translated that will, if that shrinks, then how do we find these? Because you're working with publishers? How do you find these new stories?

37:28

I don't, I don't know if that is showing, again, like publishers, the weird dissonance is that publishers are not shrinking. And in that sense, like, you know, there are people are

37:39

publishing more and more books that are newer publishers every day, like there's somebody who starts a publishing house or in print or something. So there's clearly like, there's always going to be people who want it out. So is there always going to be people who want to listen to the stories or read the stories? Or, you know, so I think, I think it's just about how can which medium the stories are consumed. And there has to be an increase in collaboration, I think between between the people who are creating the stories or publishing the stories, and, you know, and the different mediums in which they can be told, so.

38:15

Yeah, I don't I don't think there's going to be dearth of like people wanting to tell stories. Oh, yeah, no, no, that the amount of stories that I just, it just amazes me, you know, when I think about the scale and the volume of this country,

38:29

and the kind of potential we have, and we haven't even tapped into sort of, like marketing, these stories are broad enough, or, you know, the, the amount of opportunity there is, and that's why I sort of, I'm in this field, too, you know, people always like books are dying, or there's too much you know, there's always sort of like these things floating around. And I'm always like, on your page, when I say the more people are gonna stop creating stories, people are not gonna stop wanting good stories and the amount of stories that India has is using so it's actually a good place. Okay, so the last few questions, what is the best and worst aspect of your job?

39:07

Um, I think the best aspect so far has been just so I mean, being being an Indian English language publishing, for so long, you kind of have blinders on and you kind of know Okay, only that language and I think it's been eye opening for me to understand what people in various races languages want. And each language is different. And each language wants a different thing. And you know, if you try something in Tamil, it will not work in Telugu and vice versa. And if you try something in Malawi, it won't work in Canada. So you know, each so I think learning the idiosyncrasies of each language has been really interesting.

39:47

And I think finding new wins and like opportunities to, to grow something is great. Like for instance, we are we are partnering exclusively with Juggernaut for

40:00

Uncle barnacles new book. So you know, so we're planning a big campaign around it when it releases in December, that's going to be really interesting. So translated into sort of already. It's already Yeah. So the platform and all languages? No, it's not on the platform, yet we are using it simultaneously with the publisher. So that's gonna,

40:20

that's going to be a fun thing. Is that something like Uncle articles or something that would be sort of universal across your audiences?

40:31

Yeah, okay. We think we think that, you know, he will, he has takers across the country, in, in every language. And I think that, given our target group, and given the people who listen to our platform, I think the book will work wonders. So, you know, we bought it for that reason, we, you know, we knew what our target market wants, and they are people who listen to Uncle articles, advice on life and money and everything else. So, you know, so why not publish his new book simultaneously, you know, with the publisher, so that's going to be fun for us. So, so I'm excited about doing things like that, you know, exploring more opportunities like this with publishers where we can collaborate better and do simultaneous releases, because that's also exciting for authors, right, like their book will be simultaneously available across,

41:28

you know, print in audio, so nothing like it does, it gives you a big boost. And gives publishers I think, something to tell the authors as well, so, so yeah, so I think that has been the best aspect of things. The host aspect is, I think, the pace difference, I think it's basically marrying like the fast pace of the startup and how fast we need that content, and how slowly publishers normally work. So you know, it takes a long time to get your deals done and to, if for for the most part, and I think they're still, they're still a bit of hesitancy in India, in interesting what they think is the unknown. And because we work completely in regional languages, and it's not something that I think English language publishers are explored as much. So I think there is still a sense, a bit of hesitancy there. And I think my, like, I won't say it's the worst, but it's, it's been a challenge to kind of meet them in the middle and try and find ways to get them to buy in, because traditional publishers

42:45

are very, like staying in their approach in lots of ways. So while English language audiobooks do have Biden's everywhere, it's difficult to get them to understand that, like, regional is another huge aspect of selling content. So traditional with the startup combining that? Yeah, I think just marrying the pace and yeah, all of it. So I think that has been, the content is always vibrant, so that that's what matters. So in terms of just another question, in terms of, you know, somebody who can conquer radical, everyone knows him, he is a very big name, he will work, you know, as you said, across in Jani, he has a pulse on something that's really sort of interesting to young people, or, you know, startup owners and self help and all of that. So, there's a lot of other platforms also sort of, you know,

43:40

probably like, who might have sort of be interested in him. So, how does that work? You know, is it sort of like a bidding process, like in publishing? Is it like a first come first? So

43:52

it is a bidding process? In some ways? Yeah, there is a bidding process and you kind of

43:59

so with the publisher, you figure it out with the publisher, I think, has figured out what

44:06

works best for them. And,

44:10

you know, in terms of commitment in terms of like, not just monetary, but it's also about what we can do for them deliverable. Yeah, yeah. deliverables and the reach and everything. So at the moment, because we are, I mean, it's unprecedent like the 2 million paid subscribers is pretty, you know, on basic tasks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So and it's only going like everyday so so I think that is something that we can offer that others can so I think it does make a really solid value proposition for brochures. So So you have to you have to

44:50

you know, bid for all of this like not just not just money, but also show publishers that you know, the you can offer this massive

45:00

Is Bayes to them across languages? So

45:04

others can Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. And, you know, for, you know, I, you know, have lots of like people coming to me and saying, I want to be an editor, I want to work in publishing, there's a lot of, you know, young people wanting to enter, you know, become book people. So, what advice would you have? For somebody who wants to enter the publishing industry? Given that, you know, you're, you've been working in this for so long, and you've seen different sides of it, you're in a new environment and growing environment? You know, I have also made that change. So what advice would you Yeah, I think my advice would be, I mean, if they're trying to enter one, get internships, because that's, it's very hard to get publishers to respond to emails. So sometimes I think getting an internship and getting to know the publishing house from within is easier.

45:57

But also to kind of keep their

46:01

eyes peeled for opportunities within the publishing house, say, you know, especially when you're younger, you can put your hand up for more roles and more things, for instance, I know I was talking to counterpart in,

46:19

in another audio platform, and she was saying that she got her role to publishing house, like selling audio just by because it was just available, and she wanted to move, and she just put her hand up for it. And, and, you know, and that brought her opened up her CV to more opportunities and more things. So sometimes, if you're in a beginner publishing house, where there is like, be open to moving across,

46:47

you know, across the scene, because, again, it's it's changed, while it remains the same, it still has changed, like publishing has to figure out how to make, how to sell books better, or what is working, and that shift will happen. However, slowly. So I think the best way to enter publishing is to understand as many aspects of it as possible. So you know, if you're in a big enough publishing house, where there are multiple

47:17

departments, and everything's put your hand up for roles, you know, there's nothing quite like learning new things. And, you know, introducing mentioned your counterpart in another organization. And we've I've seen this, you know, a lot of people working in as editors and publishing houses, they're now working in, you know, audio, they're working in OTT video, etc.

47:42

So why do you think or why do you think, you know, having an ad, being an editor gives you an edge to then go into these platforms? And why do we think these platforms are interested in sort of

47:53

people who have worked in publishing,

47:57

it's a similar skill set to say, commissioning, because you again, have to understand your target group and think of what kind of books or content they would like to consume. So you do bring that,

48:10

that to the table? And, you know, you, you do bring that sensibility of understanding, okay, you think that this, this author is big, or this book is big? And let's, you know, let's approach them for something that we think will understanding this target group will work for this target group. So so it's marrying the two worlds and I think audio platforms also interested in people who have worked for publishing houses, because

48:39

because of the skill set, but also because they've understood the the publishers sitting on a lot of content. And I think if you're working in publishing for a certain period of time, you know, the, you know, what, your, what your publishing houses,

48:58

is publishing, but also others. So you understand the market. So you know, what's out there. And, you know, you know, what can be on offer so often, often, people outside of publishing Don't, don't view books so widely, I think, you know, so I think that that skill set plus, like, understanding of the various players and what they're good at, is what audio companies are looking at, I assume. No, I don't agree. Yeah. No, I don't. I totally agree. You know, because I feel like the skill set that you develop as an editor is invaluable. You know, being able to look at something from your audience's perspective, being able to try and understand you know, what will work for a reader you know, and be able to see both sides of the coin and what makes the fact that you know, an editor can spot curate and you know, hone a good story. That is a huge skill set.

49:57

You know, I always tell people look at it from your like, reader

50:00

was point of view look at it from your look, it's sort of like switching your readers hat on. So I totally agree and and I'm of the belief that these skill sets are fully transferable, you know, like, I've done it too. And it starts here, not only in sort of, it's not a simple thing, like a social media post or a blog post, you know, these skills are transferable across formats. So it's a very exciting time, I think for book people, editors, writers, creators, there's so much going so yeah, there's a lot going on. Exciting. It's true. I mean, I feel like it's the there has to be a sea change in the industry, like at some level at some point. And I think we are seeing the start of that. And hopefully, like, you know, especially especially in India, in regional languages, there will be a shift among traditional publishers, as well as those who are already on board with what audio really means nothing. Yeah, absolutely. So what is your one message to all the book people in India all over the world?

51:04

My one message is be open to new people coming into this into the space and be open to new ideas.

51:13

It's there's a, there's a big, I think there's a weak, they're not able to step out of their traditional roles at the moment. And I think, I think there's a huge opportunity just sitting waiting for you. And for all parties to, you know, to, like, make as much out of the content as possible. And I think that hasn't been explored yet. So my thing is to just be open to the new opportunities coming their way. For sure. And I think we're all sort of dealing in the world of ideas, you know, that is our biggest currency.

51:49

Okay, so the rapid fire round

51:53

books or audio, reading or listening? Let me phrase it that way. So I'm reading but podcasts. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Makes me too. I agree. So reading and then like, yeah, for me, like I read, and then I listened to podcasts, but I don't really do much audiobooks, because I'm a fast reader.

52:15

So I have to sort of like up the speed I listen to I listen to more sort of audio content. So like more audio shows. So because because Koko also does audio shows. So it's fun for me, so I can listen to you know, audio shows or if I'm listening to something on Stitcher or something, then I'm listening to an audio show. But, but also read. So yeah, I think another point is that, you know, like, I remember once I went to this, like when I was doing an internship, and as I was studying at the Columbia publishing course, and we had to do these information interviews. So I went to one of the editors, like very senior editor at Pan Macmillan, and I said, I want to be an editor. What do I do? You know, and she's like, read read, read read, he read. Yeah. And it's the same thing you know, any creator, anything you want to make or you want to get involved? You want to make podcasts. Listen, listen, listen, listen, you know, you want to read. So yeah, I think that's interesting. Okay, so your favorite books? Yeah. Oh, god. No, that's like asking me who my favorite child isn't even though I don't have.

53:24

I don't. Okay, your favorite book that you've read in the last year?

53:29

The last year I, I read. I think the last book that I read was bad blood.

53:37

And I absolutely love that, because

53:41

I was really good.

53:44

I read it like a long time ago. And then I read it again. And it's still one of my favorite books. So I would say that, have you seen the show? It's just, I've seen the show. It's in the documentary.

53:56

Like no, like Elizabeth Holmes. You know scamming people about blood tests? If not one of my favorite books, because it's just, it's just genius. I think the way that it's been written, and it's such a fascinating story, so. So yeah. So what is your favorite genre in the books that you've commissioned? And what is your favorite genre as a reader?

54:18

My favorite genre the books have commission is crime, and thrillers always. It's been incredibly fun to commission those and to edit dose and find the little loophole, you know, really fun.

54:36

And I think one of my favorite genres to read is, is

54:42

at the moment, weirdly true crime. So at the moment, but it changes, you know, recommendation and sometimes it's also romance. So

54:54

yeah, no, I think my recommendation Yeah, so yeah,

55:00

Ah, okay. So if you wrote a book, what would it be on?

55:05

Alone, I would never write a book. It's a lot of efforts. And I really admire authors who can put that much time and energy. And that's why I always like being an editor, because I can never see myself writing anything to you. So people, you know, they're like, Oh, you're an editor you write.

55:26

Not once have I ever tried to write a book my I have lots of relatives who've asked me the question. Are you writing your book? I'm like, No, I'm happy to be behind the scenes. I'm happy to shape your writing. But I'm no writer. Thank you. I think if I would write I would write really trashy romance. But

55:45

yeah, yeah. But I would I wouldn't write. So

55:50

yesterday, I was reading an interview of Jerry Pinto. And he said that, you know, his favorite editor is Ravi Singh. And why does he and one of the reasons he really likes him is that because he doesn't want to ever write a book, his focus is editing. I have worked with everything. So I know. Yeah, I know.

56:07

Okay, so one tip for writers want to make money.

56:13

So sell your content to different platforms, I will say, you know, not just not just in book form. So because there isn't, there is not that much money in that format, and also

56:29

learn how to sort of market online better. I know some people who are doing that pretty well these days. And they have managed to kind of make money slowly and steady. So so if you can get somebody get a get a consultant on board, who can allow you to mark it on Amazon and push your publisher to price your book low, especially for fiction? I wouldn't say that the same thing for nonfiction. But I would definitely recommend if you're writing a commercial fiction book, not so much, literally. But if you're writing commercial fiction, then like, try and get your publishers to price your books, according me and then market the hell out of it. Totally agree. Like, yes, sources has to be behind the books. Now. I can't rely on your publisher to do everything. Yeah. So because they don't have time or bandwidth. And I've seen that across the board. So you just have to push your book and that's the reality you relentless? Yeah. Just go to bookshops push your books, as much as possible. I mean, I think one of the successes

57:38

is I'm used to party like he did that, you know, big, huge success. And so there's so you have to you have to champion your own book. You can't sit back and say, Yeah, I totally agree with that. You have to it's so important to sort of always innovate in that regard, as well. So thank you so much, Fiona, I could have gone on and on talking to you. I just had a blast. Thank you for your insights. I hope it I hope it was useful to somebody whoever's listening,

58:12

and I hope it wasn't too dull. Simple, not at all, I think very useful, very real, very insightful about a new industry.

58:22

You know, and sort of like, like a new, like, kind of career aspect for people who are book people as well. So yeah, sure. You know, if anybody wants to reach out to me, I'm happy to like answer questions

58:38

about the role and the industry. So, you know, always happy to help. Great. That was the end of another episode of the book people. Tune in every Thursday for some breakdowns, some truth bombs, and some insightful and real conversations with industry experts about all things books. This podcast is created by Bob. We work with writers and brands to create content across formats, whether it's books, podcasts, newsletters, or seen so get in touch to see how we can help you grow through stories and follow us at bound India on all social media plan. I'm your host Aishwarya is

59:19

in follow me on LinkedIn, where I share many, many more insights about books and content. Or you can get in touch with me at Ushuaia at bound india.com If you have any suggestions on topics I should cover, or if you want to book any of my services or consultation. Until then, keep writing