25. How Do Independent Bookstores Build Community? With Leonard Fernandes, Creative Entrepreneur

Aishwarya speaks with Leonard Fernandes, the founder of CinnamonTeal Publishing, the Publishing Next conference and The Dogears Bookshop. Over the years, Leonard has made a name for himself as he is constantly identifying and filling gaps in the publishing industry.

Why did he and his wife, Queenie, start their own publishing house, CinnamonTeal Design and Publishing? What is his take on the rivalry between Amazon and independent bookstores? And what does he see as the most important trends shaping the future of publishing?

Leonard Fernandes is an engineering graduate. After returning to India from the USA, he and his wife saw an opportunity to work in India’s publishing industry. Since then they have founded CinnamonTeal Publishing to ensure high-quality self-published books, started Publishing Next, a conference that gives publishing professionals a chance to meet and discuss key topics, and opened The Dogears Bookshop. Find Leonard on LinkedIn.

Produced by Aishwarya Jawalgekar
Edited by Kshitij Jadhav

Transcript

00:00

Self publishing in India, you know, become a con. Surely we don't have a problem with self published books. Because nobody walks into a bookshop and says, I want books published by Penguin. Yes, I want books that are good to read. Or sometimes they asked for the auto book news. JATO is trending which author has lost his appeal,

00:27

which also is trending for the wrong reasons.

Aishwarya  00:41

Welcome to the BookPeople, I'm assure you as our kicker, writer, book editor, Podcast Producer, and the head of originals at bomb in this heartbreaking podcast, I demystified the publishing and creative industries, and uncover the biggest opportunities and challenges for writers in India today. Today, I'm talking to someone who is not only Frank enough to talk about what needs to change in the industry, but is also willing to create his own ventures to fill these gaps. So Leonard Fernandez has an independent bookstore, he has a self publishing company. And he's one of the cofounders of publishing next, which is a publishing conference where experts gather every year to talk about what's happening in the industry, and where the industry is headed. And that's not all. In 2010, he received the young creative entrepreneur, publisher award by British Council. So I'm going to talk to Leonard about what's happening in the industry today. Where does he see gaps? Or where does he see opportunities and possibilities of the industry growing further? What kinds of opportunities is he seeing for creators, or for professionals who want to enter the industry today? And what is he going to do about all this? So let's find out.

02:03

Hi, Leonard, welcome to the book people.

02:05

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

02:08

Yeah, I'm very, very excited to talk to you because, you know, you've done so many different things that kind of come together in the publishing world, right, like, you started dog ears, bookshop and 20. In 2006, then you started sentimental publishing in 2007, when you started publishing next in 2011, and then you know, 2016, and then you did the sort of physical bookstore in Guam. So you know, you've been wearing these different hats in the industry and doing a lot of these different things. So what are these gaps in the industry that you've noticed over the years? Or, you know, what, what was it that sort of almost compelled you to start this or made you think that you know, now I should start this bookstore? or Now I should start this sort of publishing house for self publishing? Where is that coming from?

03:04

Yeah, so I wish I could tell you that there was some epiphanies somewhere, but nothing much of that kind of thing happened. And it's always been my wife and I, together in this, although I'm the face kind of of it. So we were, we were abroad till 2005. And when we decided to come to India, we thought we will do something. I'm an engineer by training. My wife is an economic economist by training, but we thought we will get into the book space and do something. And we used to do a lot of us books abroad, we thought that when we came back, we would do something in the US book space. So we started an online bookshop called dog years, etc, dog years for the use books. And we started that in 2006. And it didn't quite go well, in that space. Because I think people are not very on we're not very comfortable with selling their books, you know, so so it kind of it kind of didn't didn't have quite the traction we thought it would have. But we got a lot of queries from people who wanted to publish books. Do you also publish kind of questions we got? So we were looking at the whole publishing scene. And if you look at the numbers that were floating around, in there floating around even now 16,000 publishers or something in India, yeah. And you wonder, why are people asking for another publishing service? Right? So we looked around and we, we found these people called Lulu, and they were doing something called self publishing, which was not quite there in India in the way it was packaged and provided in the West. So we decided to start we decided to introduce self publishing to India. So we started in two 1007 October. And we were the first to introduce him publishing in India. So that's how we did that we, we were lucky to have immediately found printers who could print one copy at a time. So in that sense, print on demand was also introduced. Because we had people saying that they could print on demand. But they had a minimum order quantity like 2550. Yeah, nobody could print one copy. And we found this printer in Chennai called Bhavish graphics. Who said, you know, I can do that? And they did, they actually printed one copy editor. So what it allowed, we are one of our first customers was silica, the search engine, I don't know if you remember them, they used to have story competition, and the best stories they used to publish. And they were one of our first customers because they wanted small quantities.

05:56

When you got into self publishing, was it that you know, you were looking at creating something where anyone who wants to self publish a book can self publish? Or do you in that has some kind of mandate where you say, Okay, I want to specifically focus on these kinds of books, or make sure that these kinds of books go out into the world, which are these a specific sort of very short, like small print run, or, you know, one of copies kinds of

06:23

books. So in 2007, self publishing was not the sort of option. It was, it was equated with vanity publishing. And it was not something that people were willingly going for, you know, and the ones that were understood what it was understood what it could do for them. And it was a lot of fiction, a lot of poetry, some very private consumption books, like family histories, and things like that. Yeah, we did not say, Okay, we want these kind of books. And we don't want that. We were not taking any books that had violence towards women, that is something that is still there in our contracts. And we were not taking books that were not edited. So initially, we were allowing the authors to get it edited from somewhere else. And then slowly, we took over that, because authors were saying the books edited, but they were, they weren't quite being edited, we were quite conscious of the fact that if a book is out there in the market, and somebody is going to buy that book, that person needs to get value for money. And you cannot, you cannot push a book that is not edited properly. That is not designed properly, that is not printed properly. You know, we talk two things. One, it devalues the book, it makes the book not worth the price. It is that that's on it. And secondly, it's points to self publishing industry for everyone. Meaning going in if people are going to equate self publishing with shoddy work. Even if there is somebody out there who's really publishing good stuff, people will say what self published. So so that was the thinking behind it. So we went and we went with everything. We went with a contract, we went with earnings statement, we went with all these things required editing, design, printing, that time only Flipkart was there in the market? So we tied up with them. If Flipkart in India Plaza were then we tied up with both of them to print, print and sell their books. So it was quite a comprehensive service even then.

08:45

And what about publishing next? How did you kind of come up with that?

08:49

So in 2010, we won the British Council young creative entrepreneur award, that was for cinnamon tea. And as part of that, they allowed us to go to London, to the London book fair, the next year 2011. And we saw there how there is a discussion, over publishing, people are doing different things. But then there's a forum where they can share best practices where they can share the knowledge, their knowledge of the industry, kind of brings everybody on the same page, you know, and these were the days when social media marketing was just kicking in, when it was called digital marketing that time. This was a time when print on demand was just kicking in. And there were some people who were not quite in tune with what's happening. And I and we thought that it's not quite fair for people to for some people to be left behind, you know. And there was also this conference called rules of change that O'Reilly used to have in New York. And we thought we need a TOS of change and India, you know, so basically publishing next was to bring everybody on the same page and say this is what you can do with the resources you have, this is what you can do this is how you can partner with each other. This is what you can do in terms of marketing, in terms of book production, all kinds of

10:18

knowledge sharing a lot of knowledge sharing, and a lot of just a mod building that as a community, right, which is not every publisher is functioning in a silo, and doing their own thing, but kind of bringing them all together to see can we do partnerships? How can we grow? How can we sort of help each other grow? No,

10:38

absolutely that so we had all kinds of publishers come we had the independence calm, we have the we had the the big ones HarperCollins penguin comm it was a kind of, you know, that we are we are one in this and we need to so how to improve readership, how to get books out there, how to improve distribution, all these kinds of topics, we also used to have focus on new voices, you know, is to try and find people who are doing new things. And even within an organization, the newer voices, and we had a large focus on Indian languages. Every edition had one Indian language panel, where about five or six Indian language publishing industries were discussed. So there was there were two or three such unique features about publishing Next, we were we almost always had more women speakers and men, we almost always had a focus on Indian languages, always new voices. So I think in that sense, we got a lot of buy in from people who are otherwise not considered part of the industry. So

11:56

I'm curious, how did you get all these people on board? You know, at that point, so when you were doing the very first edition, right, of publishing next, was it kind of difficult to get people on board and approach them and say, Hey, we're doing this and get them to participate?

12:11

Not actually not? Not really, because we saw the first time there were many independents who came on board. In terms of in terms of foreign publishing companies, I think only HarperCollins was represented that year. By there were many. There were many small, what you would call small publishers. But gradually that changed. And more people came and more and more participants came in the started getting sponsors so slowly changed, but yeah, during the first years, it was it was not difficult. Nobody said no, I'm not coming. But it was difficult to reach out to them. And

12:50

so right, it was happening in person as well. Yeah, that now seems like such. Yeah. Go physically to places to do conferences. And I also noticed that also publishing next, the way you've been sort of programming, it has also evolved over the years, right. Like, in the beginning, I saw that there were a lot of, you know, you had these panels and workshops. And, you know, you have all those videos and resources of those conversations also available on your site. And obviously, recent years, you know, because of the pandemic, and lockdown and everything. It has also moved to awards, right? I don't know if you were doing a work from the beginning, or was it earlier, just discussions, and now it is awards.

13:35

So we started the first conference started in 2011. And the award started in 2014. So this is our 10th year of awards. And so initially, we were doing only five categories. Now we are doing some trails. The idea was to get more people recognized for what they do. But then we went into, you know, best editor and best illustrators, because we wanted to make sure that the people behind the book were also given the recognition that they deserve.

14:09

Yeah, I noticed that and I thought that was such a great idea to kind of not just look at, I think most awards or, you know, celebrations in that sense, look at the book, right. And when the book is sort of associated with the author, when a book wins any award, or it's like a best publisher, but I think it's very interesting to look at these, like the people who are actually putting in that work and making you know, the books happen in a way I saw that you have best editor best illustrator. And you also are focusing a lot on like children's books and picture books, as well. I'm very curious where, you know, at this point or in the future, are you also looking at other roles in publishing, you know, and sort of specifically giving awards for those roles beyond editing.

14:56

Yeah, so we were looking at we're looking at best marketer and all and we yeah, we were we were not sure how people would evaluate them and who would evaluate them? You know, this year, I think, you know that working book fairs, as well for best book seller, which is, I think, a wonderful thing that they have done. But just to come back to the awards, it's a publishing. So the best book award goes to the publisher does not go to the author, author.

15:28

Yeah, I mean, generally, when you think of a lawyer, when they Book Awards, they go to the author,

15:33

also the best, the best cover books, or go to the design, or they don't go to. So we in that sense, we have been different. And we look at, we look a lot at production values. So So for example, a book that might win a prize at JCB, or, you know, might not necessarily when the publishing next award, because we are looking at why did you make the book was the book genre was pushing the envelope on in some sense, you know, in terms of the material that was covered, or in the terms that it was produced on the terms that it was marketed? So it's a very publishing oriented awards in that sense.

16:18

Makes sense? And it's also a good question of How would a marketing award or one of these other sort of rules, how would the what would the parameters look like?

16:29

Yeah, somebody had suggested that, you know, we have a production assistant award winning these guys who are in the production flow. But again, you know, how do I evaluate them? Because different? Also, the problem is that, you know, many, some publishers have resources to do it in house or they, some publishers don't. And I think it does not, it creates an unlevel uneven field for

16:57

even with marketing, right, because it depends on what the budget for each book is, which gets defined, you know, depends on how, what is the profile of the author? How much How can you separate what marketing efforts, the marketing person in the publishing house made versus the author's marketing efforts versus just other factors that kind of influenced? Yeah, absolutely. How well the book has done. So, right now, right, so when you kind of plan the next conference, so you're planning, you know, 2023? Right. Now, how do you go about doing it? Like, I'm very curious, how do you decide who to you know, choose as the jewelry, what are the parameters that are set, how far back in advanced you start planning for the years,

17:46

this is for the for the awards, or for the conference? For the conference, two things happen simultaneously, we are looking for sponsors. And we are looking for speakers. So initially, we used to have an advisory panel that is to say, okay, these are the topics will include, but now we try and crowdsource crowd sourced them also, because there are people out there who say, you know, these are this is a topic that needs to be discussed. Yeah. So for example, in post COVID, a lot of it is changing, like, you know, that there are habits that are moving online, what do we do about them? What how does that affect publishing? How does that affect marketing, so and there are people on so we get a lot of good ideas from, from, from people who have a wind the field awards, we have already announced the awards for 2023 We are getting submissions, we usually get them, you know, like five days before the deadline. So that's always happens. But we get we got a we got a large field. So you know, like for our for Book Awards, we get 3035 books. And we saw the jury selected after the awards coming after the submissions come in, because we tried to keep a neutral jury. So even if there is a person from a publishing house, who might be a jury for best book, but they have submitted the application for best publisher. We try not to engage that person. So you know, a person has to be totally neutral to the to the addition of their worlds. And that that is sometimes difficult to do, you know, so we're looking we're looking all over the place for edit for you for also they have to be they have to know what so you we need an editor to we need a judge. Yeah, yeah. The publishers to evaluate the public best publish so that jury thing happens After the submissions come in.

20:03

That's such a challenge though, because the more the award then grows, the more submissions that you will get in difficult to find members who are not, you know, invested because they're not sort of permitted to certain for certain award.

20:22

So we are looking so we look at, you know, bookstore owners, we look at library or library, people who have libraries, we look at freelance illustrators. So, you know, so we that pool is something we tap into,

Aishwarya  20:39

do you want to work in India's publishing and creative industries and be one of these cool book people that I interview in this podcast? Well, now you can, we at bound have come up with a three month comprehensive online course, that gives you the skills and helps you get jobs in your dream companies, whether they are book publishers, magazines, literary agents, digital publishing platforms, or any other content company. So this course starts on 15th, September, and essentially, in 100 live hours, we will be teaching you every single aspect of the publishing industry. And you will get to specialize in a particular field of your choice. You will learn from over 70 top experts from the industry, and a lot of the book people themselves. So imagine you could be learning directly from science and Ghosh from the meanwhile sicoma Children shoot the valley, radica and bardiya, the Shanaya, and many, many more experts. In addition to this, you can test your newfound skills in a capstone simulation that we will be holding at the end of the course. And we will be giving you the chance to actually interview with the top companies in India. So we are hosting a two week recruitment drive. And in the drive, you will get to interview with companies like notion press Cactus Communications, Rupa publications, Little Black Book, and we have over 17 Recruitment partners already signed up with us to give you jobs. And I haven't even mentioned the best part yet. We'll only be conducting classes on weekday evenings and on weekends, mornings, so that you can make sure that you can continue with your studies, you can keep your full time job, you can keep your weekend plans while you're doing this course as well. And don't worry, we've also accounted for the valley and all of the festivals that will come up during those three months between September and December. Obviously, you will see me there as one of the core instructors. And if you have any questions, you can reach out to us at bound and they are on all social media platforms, you will find the details in the description below. And I really hope that you will take this opportunity and use it to really build your career in the publishing industry and in the creative industries. Apply now.

23:03

So, you know, based on all of these different things you do because you wear so many hats, you know, how do you see yourself? Like how would you define Leonard Fernandes? Are you a publisher, do you see yourself as a bookstore owner? Are you you know, a creative entrepreneur, because of the avoidance? Well, what is your identity in this publishing ecosystem?

23:27

I would say bookstore because a sitting in a bookshop, it allows me, it allows me a good view of the publishing industry. You know, I wish, I wish more publishers spend time, you know, I think publishing many people have this view, and I subscribe to it, that if you want to start into in publishing, you have to start working for at least six months in a bookshop. Because because that is that's where you get an idea of what the tastes or what people are coming and looking for. You are, you know, how distribution works, and how broken it is, you will know how accessibility to certain kinds of books is possible or not possible. You know, why? You You know why? You know how marketing affects books, you know, so, and finally, as a publisher, you can then fine tune your strategies to make sure that the or the end consumer understands what you're putting out there. For me, it allows me that whole ringside view of publishing, it allows me to see what publishers are doing. It allows me to see how the distribution and marketing is working. And it allows me to see what people are looking for in their books.

24:45

Make sense? Any other one ultimately interacting with the actual readers, right? Like there is that gap where it's like, you know, as a publisher of you're sitting and you're assuming to a large extent, what you think the reader will like, or how Uh, you know, what reader behavior is. But when you're kind of in the bookstore, you're seeing that in person on a day to day basis of what they like don't like, or you know, what they're buying buying behaviors or like, how often do they read, or what kind of readers read what kinds of books, you think that could be very interesting, for sure. And the curation element as well, right, especially with smaller, like independent bookstores, because so much of it is you are curating based on your sort of tastes, but also based on what you think that readers would like to read.

25:37

So for me curation is it's not giving them more of what they are reading in the sense in that sense. So because they are reading certain author, I will not bring the next book. But rather, I would like to, I would like to be known as a bookshop that introduce you introduces readers to newer ideas, new kinds of books,

25:59

the more discovery focused, where it's not like you, if you like X, you will like y. But here is code, challenge yourself and try a new genre, like a new subject or something that you did not think that was in sort of your bookshelf already.

26:18

A bookshop is always a reflection of the bookstore, in the sense that you know, you will always try and buy books that you like, also. And, and in that process evolves in the sense that then, for example, when we started, we do not have much of romance, and science fiction type fiction. And then people came in particularly asked for those kinds of books. So then you say, Okay, this is what people want, you know, science fiction, graphic books, a little thrillers, particular kind of thrillers. This is so so if you're a literary fiction kind of guy who too, you want to fill the bookshelf, with that with that genre, but then people inform you about their choices. So you don't bring the nearest. You don't bring the next romance that is there, you want to challenge even in that genre, you want to you want a good read, you want something that will push the boundaries on even on that genre. Right. So. So that's how you say, I'm always looking for books that that people will find interesting to read, people will find what they are well worth their money, what their time. So, yeah,

27:34

what is it a challenge to convince readers to try something new, and get out of their comfort zone?

27:40

Now, if they are in a bookshop? No, that might happen online. You know, that might happen. Reader, if you say readers also read this, and then you look at the cover

27:50

algorithm now it's like, if you go on Amazon, it's like, oh, I looked at this one book, here are suggestions of books.

27:58

Yeah. That is also that is also it's, it's a game algorithm, we realized that because we published one. In our self publishing division, we published one book of poems. And we, the author wanted it listed on Amazon. So we listed it on Amazon, and no sales, right? So and then she comes and sees what Amazon said, it's, it's selling. And we went to see what she meant. And it was their buyers who bought this book also bought this book, and her book was there. But, but but it was Amazon's way of pushing the book, where she thought, you know, also bought this book means people were actually buying copies of that book. So at all times, you're being manipulated as what you think, you know,

28:49

what is the recommendation is being framed as actual sale? Yeah. And as it is simply a recommendation. Yeah.

28:55

And but to come to your question, no, meaning people will take the book that you show them. And they will, they will look at the back cover, they will look at, they will even flip through the book. So people are open to ideas. There are very few people who say no, I want only this kind of genre, you know, because ultimately, I think it's a reader who's who's entering the bookshop, and they will read anything that's that they might find interesting.

29:27

I think this discovery thing is really fascinating is now when I was studying in Toronto, I had gone into this bookstore where they had a vending machine. So they had a book vending machine and you pay like there was this base standard amount, and you pay that and you get a token, and you put the token in the vending machine, and it just gives out a book, any book. So it is any random book and your view basically bought that book. So you have to be okay with that level of uncertainty. And it was one of those very niche books stores where they had very, you know, old or very, very, very niche, very specific books about like the most random thing. So I think that again, is that very discovery thing, right? Yeah. Are you willing to try something new,

30:15

and it's a very underplayed thing, because once you're in a bookshop, there is so much else that happens, meaning you, you look at the book that you want, but you look also a guy just in book, and oh, my God, that could be also interesting to me. And the whole idea of browsing in solitude, and you know, this is your space, you're not being judged here. You can open any book you. I think all these things are very, they're underplayed and undervalued, I think, which is why I think bookshops are slowly getting the kind of recognition they deserve. You know, there are more shops coming into play.

30:48

Yeah, definitely. I think curation being one thing. And then again, like you said, like the connection rate, which is sort of building a community around the bookstore as well, which I think a lot of bookstores are doing now. You know, where sort of people come for that bookstore after a point, because they build those relationships with the people in the bookstore or sort of the curation that that bookstore provides. And that was that almost loyalty community kind of thing? Do you think that readers today value that? Or do you think that, you know, because, obviously, I'm gonna ask them like Amazon question. So how much of a threat? Do you think Amazon is to bookstores today? And do you think that, you know, readers are valuing the convenience that is Amazon or just like, oh, I go, I click that buy, versus sort of that community or that experience of walking into a bookstore and browsing through books.

31:46

So I don't grudge books being sold on Amazon. And I think Amazon is doing service in India, last mile, delivery of books, I think there have been places and there are places even in India, which don't have access to a bookshop, which is sad, they don't have access to a bookshop, they don't have access to a library. And Amazon is doing that, that service. What we graduate is the discount, because the book cannot be about the price alone. It just, it just just doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense that a book, because I wrote about this entry time you must have heard what what is the need to what is the need to discount to morph sand mining? What exactly are you trying to convey? When you say to morph sand is not worth six 980 99? It is worth whatever? Is it? Is it not worth 699? It shouldn't, because it cannot be like it cannot be that, you know, to move, sand is suddenly attractive because of its low price. Its attractiveness and worth of the book has always already been conveyed by the numerous prizes it has got and the recognition as Why does price need to give that push for the buyer to buy?

33:11

Treating the book as any other product, right? Like, okay, we want to up the sales of this product, let's give a discount, or let's lower the price. But they're not looking at books as a separate category of products that need to be treated separately. In that

33:26

sense. So much has gone into editing, so much has gone into writing so much has gone into designing you then finally stick a price on it and then say no, no, no, that's not worth it. It's worth much less than that. Right? So that's where that's where our issue is. And I'm quite surprised with the way publishers are allowing this, you know, this is a product that you have put in the market, you're probably telling people that this is one of your best books, but you're okay with it being nice being up and down and running. So how important is that book to you in the scheme of things? So that's where the issue comes with the price discounting. But to go back to your question, I think people who have browsed in a bookshop will go online only if there is some, you know, Midnight crisis or something to buy a present or to get delivered somewhere else and all. But if there is a bookshop around they will go into a bookshop is what I think people who do not have that you haven't had that experience of walking into a bookshop and understanding how browsing what browsing can do to you. And, you know, I think they will continue on with but that's not their fault. Again, meaning the fault lies. There is no bookshop around there is no library around.

34:48

Oh, do you think that bookstores were very heavily impacted by the pandemic? Right, and the lockdown and that was kind of a conversation that was ongoing for two years where now things have opened up So, there is, again, that influx of people coming into the bookstores. But we also see, you know, bookstores kind of trying to adapt or evolve to what they can become as a space, right. So like, hosting events, so becoming an event space, or, you know, having sort of this bookstore, come cafe, kind of spaces where they become more than a place that sells books to sort of a larger than life thing. Do you think that that is a way that bookstores are sort of sustaining themselves? Like, is that the way to go?

35:38

Yeah, it could be. But so there is this book by a person called Jeff dodge. It's called in praise of good bookstores. So Jeff Deutsch is a member of the Board of something called a seminary cooperative bookstore. It's the world's first cooperative bookshop, a non for profit bookstore, in which he says that the current rules of commerce haven't quite lend itself, acquaint are not quite suitable for book shops. So if you go, if you just go by bookshops, and say, we will make some money on profits, you know, that's not working for workshops, in the sense that the margins are low, the prices are low, you can't satisfy the customer walking in, you know, so. So you have to keep a lot large inventory. But that then that impedes on the costs and things like that. And he's he's suggesting maybe there is something else to it. So when you when you're talking about coffee, and books, or stationery and books, you're talking about two different businesses that that person has to make himself well versed in, right. So there's a restaurant and books now, you know, and it's not the same business. Yeah. And we have, for instance, wrestled with this idea of having a cafe in the bookshop. And we have always come back saying no, meaning, I don't think a person will come to a bookshop, because there's coffee in the workshop, he will come to a bootstrap and enjoy coffee, that's fine. But a person will come to the bookshop for the books. We could be wrong on that. But because when I was in the US, I used to go to the Barnes and Nobles. There are people walk straight to the bookshop, whenever people walk straight to the cafe. And very, very, very rarely was there were people who walked into booths, so anyway, that it's probably out, and people will still come and say, Oh, you don't have coffee, but you haven't quite got into it. And he's he and he suggests that, you know, that maybe we need to think about totally different things to to make workshops work, you know, like subscription. So he doesn't know the answer to that. So maybe a subscription service, or or CSR, or whatever. Whether whether because it's a common good about like how you said, right, it's a it's a community place. It is a place where children can learn it is a place where children can read. There's a there's a common good attached to a bookstore in like it's not attached to any other form of commerce. And, yeah, and so, so we are still in search for help funding model. But in the meantime, we try to do with what we have. So in our case, we have some stationery, which is less than 10% of what we have in the store. But the idea of finally is to make it work with books only. Yeah, it's not

38:52

that thing. Yeah, it should work together. And then champaca has a very interesting subscription model that they are. They've been trying out for a couple of

39:03

years. There was also LBB I think they went on Shark Tank, and somebody told them people are not reading, which is the most reports on the judges told them, oh, but people are not reading anymore.

39:23

That's what we hear every year, right? Every year is that conversation of or not enough people are reading and like

39:31

it's not it's not. It's not an assertion that's made. That's backed up in data. It is you know, something that comes to their mind something that is so repeated so often it becomes a truth. We had a go a book fair. And we had just 23 stalls. But the amount of people that walked in because there were books available. You know? I don't think it is that people are not reading I think that people aren't getting the books to read, they will not read because you give them a book and they should read it. They will read the book that they want to read. And those books are not being made available.

40:14

Because you brought up Barnes and Noble, I don't know if you read that very interesting piece recently about how Barnes and Noble kind of turn this business model around a little bit, because, again, the same thing, right, like Barnes and Noble, obviously, has books, right. But it had evolved into selling so many other things, and had almost become weird. Maybe not even like it 50%, or not even 50% of the store was actually selling books. And then the rest of it was selling, you know, stationery or other sort of knickknacks. And then they had the, you know, sort of cafe restaurant thing. And then there was a piece about how it was turned around by just going back to that essence of it is about books and the love for books. So making it sort of less commercial, which I thought was just a very interesting piece to talk about books and sell, I think because at bound, we have this editing and publishing course that we offer where, you know, it's kind of we sort of teach people who want to who are writers who maybe want to become editors maybe want to work in publishing, because they love books, right. And sort of the first thing, one of the first things that we have to sort of teach them or explain to them is the fact that books are product, in the sense that you know that there is a business model, right. So like when a publishing house exists, it ultimately has to make some amount of profit, or at least make even to kind of stay afloat. So I think it's very interesting that it's that double thing, right? Well, first, you have to take someone who loves books so much as a reader or as a writer and say, hey, you know, now you got to think of books as product because you gotta think of packaging and marketing, and, you know, distribution, and how is this gonna sell? And then again, you have to be like, okay, but don't think of them as just product, and bring that love back and think of, you know, the larger value that the book has beyond just being a product. Yeah.

42:19

Yeah. And that's where many publishing houses, you know, stumble. Because they haven't thought about the distribution and marketing. They get a very good product out, but then what to do with it and becomes, you know, yeah, that's true.

42:37

So do self publishing crews in the movie? How do you say self publishing being integrated into bookstores? You know, like, for example, in your own bookstore? Do you also, you know, sell books by self published authors?

42:51

We do actually, I was part of the NBT publishing course, just on Sunday. And this question came up. And I told them, we don't have a problem with self published books, because nobody walks into a bookshop and says, I want books published by Penguin. Yes, I want books that are good to read, or sometimes they ask for the author, right? What's the next TJ Kuhn book or, but self publishing in India, you know, become a con squarely in the sense that people have been taken for such a ride, you know, if you ever, if you ever happen to come to our shop, in Goa, I show you the kind of books that are passed for self published books. They are printed on copy of the copy printed on copier paper, they are stapled together, the the cover is you know, clipart with Comic Sans onto something, and which is printed on a card, which is printed on paper that is thinner than copier paper. There is no sense of there is no sense of aesthetics, there is no sense of editing. And then these are gullible authors who have gone and said, Can you do it, and that these people have said I can do it for cheap. I can do it for the word thrown to them. It's free. And you know, by wait for four months, so when when people come to us, we'll see we say four to six months because it needs to be edited. The edited version needs to go back to you then you need to plug in the holes and all that there are people saying that we can do a book and ready for us. You can you can you can Google this. And we wonder what book can be done in trading. You know, so So, yeah, so to answer your question, yes, we take self published books, but we asked for a review copy. You see me I want to look at a copy. And if it passes not muster, but it because for for us when we are putting a book on the shelf, it, it, it needs to own its place then because as it is. And for a person who is taking that book off the shelf and saying I'll buy it, it needs to be value for money, right? You cannot, you cannot push anything because the customer

45:26

is buying. Yeah. So advocating for the book, right, any book that's on your shelf, I am, I am guaranteeing that it is of a certain basic standard of quality, you know, whether it's the material or the writing or whatever it might be. And also, you know, it's it's taking up space, right? Like in a bookstore where there is limited space, there is a set number of faces, if taking up space, which could then go to another book.

46:03

Yeah. And we do we still don't know why, why this is being done, you know? Because meaning that person is paying paying you for that book is paying you for the services. why don't why don't you edit it? Or why don't we just like things like your and you are with that apostrophe in between? I mean, these glaring mistakes, are there and on the first page sometimes. And what is the author thinking? And what are these people selling them?

46:34

Yeah, I was gonna ask you that about self publishing, because, you know, you mentioned quality earlier as well. And despite everything that is still currently that little bit of stigma attached to self publishing, right, when when someone says, Okay, this book is self published, because of just the sort of volume of self published books in India right now, right, the average of sort of what people expect the quality to be is, you know, something that is, like, not as bad as what you said, is, like, okay, it's not gonna be that professional level of, you know, cover design, or it's gonna have errors on it's gonna have, you know, grammatical mistakes, or it's just gonna be not as polished as a traditionally published book, that kind of stigma still exists. So how do you counter that stigma with books that go out of your publishing?

47:30

Yeah, so so people know by now that we insist on editing, it's out there. And that's the only thing so we send out copies, we say, okay, look at the book, we tell authors to come to us buy a book from us and see what kind of quality we offer? Don't Don't tell us just go and just go somewhere, buy it and see what what you get. Because because I might, if you asked me for a copy, I might print one nice one for you. But But and then coming back to your question, I don't really blame people for this stigma, because it's messed up completely messed up, in the sense that you have, what could be a really nice thing, and it's moved. Now. It's across genres. People are doing self publishing, so that stigma is kind of shaken off. But it's in some way, they're also meaning you will think twice before public before picking up a self published book.

48:30

Do you think that self publishing, again, has become about you know, if I know a book is associated with a certain publisher, a self publishing publisher, then that guarantees quality?

48:43

I hope it becomes that because then at least people will be able to differentiate on that one aspect, which is quality, whether it's editorial quality or production quality. Because that can be that can be a differentiator, because the market is so cluttered, somebody pointed out that in the recent World Book Fair, there were 21 stalls offering self publishing services. And these are only people who offered who were there daily. Yeah. So it's a it's a, it's a fragmented market. And you need to price cannot be a differentiator, just cannot. Because if you're if you're looking at good editors, if you're looking at designers, then it's going to cost money. The self publishing service will also then ensure that there is some scope to recoup that money. And that can all come only if the product is good, you cannot expect people to buy a shoddy product.

49:45

So what does a day in your life look like? Right now with all the different things that you do.

49:52

So So, so my wife, we need she, she actually manages the pub wishing the bookshop is what I do. So we have we have people there also, but the curation, then, if there are orders online offline, then right now also the awards and the conference is taking up my time. So even in something like book selling, you have to always be, you have to always understand or be in touch with, what's the culture around in the place, right. So for example, yesterday, one, Lucy Singh, I think her name is book game, how to be a boss or something as the name of the title. And one of my colleagues said, Oh, she had a YouTube channel,

50:50

oh, really thing. Really thing.

50:54

And so, you have to be in touch with all these aspects of a book, you know, you cannot be cannot be isolated and see help sell only books, you need to understand what's going on what are people like that call in? Who are thing completely took us by? You know, and they were not all the colleagues who have books that are selling them only a few that were selling. And then there was, there was a problem there that what she said and what she did, so then there was a backlash, and you know, so, so much more to keep in to keep in touch about these things. And yeah, JATO is trending, which author has lost his appeal, which also

51:37

is trending for the wrong reasons.

51:42

Unfortunately, there's not much of a Kancil culture here in India, like, for example, when JK Rowling said what she said, Didn't quite didn't, I didn't I don't think it affected her sales. You're in India?

51:54

Yeah. Can you tell me I mean, because you are telling me these amazing anecdotes, which I love. You have a wholesome book story, like a book that, you know, you came across through the bookstore that you really, really like, and that, you know, you would encourage people to

52:14

read. So there are a couple of things like, for example, there is this book called Falling fish. So this guy went across the whole coastal belt of India. And he saw how fishing was done in all these places. And he's put them into a nice book. So that so there is that book, there is this whole series by Seagull, about German, of German translations that someone came into the bookshop. And, you know, fiction nonfiction across the board, there was a lot of it. And then we have some perennial bestsellers, like Jerry Pinto sells, like, crazy, the Bookshare em in the book on big home, education of UAE and things like that, they are selling translation sell a lot. Because we keep these books, we keep a lot of translations across different languages is much Dyson's a lot. Mira Dawson's a lot. Yeah, yeah. She says a lot. So we have these, you have these few books that sell? Yeah.

53:34

And what is your stance on, you know, these new developments? Because you mentioned, you know, with publishing next, you kind of discuss, like, create a space to discuss, what are the different things happening in the industry right now. But sort of, you know, if we look at what is happening currently, that is gonna very clearly affect the future, let's say, you know, now there's all of these, you know, books that are getting adapted into different formats. So like, book two audio or book two screen, kind of becoming a big thing, or even if we talk about AI, and how AI is gonna impact writers and books, which is like right now, the big, the big, big concern that everyone had? Well, I was just gonna say, so what is, you know, what do you think are really the important things happening right now that are gonna impact the future? And what do you see the future looking like, like publishing five years down the line?

54:28

So when you say I think it's, it's going to be a major game changer. So we have said that about different technologies as they have come. But AI is something else. Like for example, I, I just put in a question, how do I scale my self publishing business? So it gave me here are the five things you can do? Then for each of those five things and then check for this thing, you can do all these things? And then for this thing, you can do all these things. And I'm wondering, what is it like for example, if I want to I want to put a Instagram post. And I want, I want to, I want to take get another take on a certain book that I'm trying to recommend. And this guy just gives it just spews out something that. So and I'm wondering where the content writers can add value? Where is it? Because I say, I say I give me give me five points. So today I tried, what are the five P's of publishing? Because what are the five P's of book selling? And it gave me five years of books selling persuasion and Paradise and something and something. And it made sense, you know, your sense. And I'm wondering, now, where is this? Where are these? Where are these people who say they can do content and they can do copywriting? Where or what is the value that they're going to bring, and it's something that they need to think about hard, and they need to think fast, because people are going, going towards, they're going to gravitate towards AI as a very. So I can understand where the problems might be the problems might be in fact checking. Like that.

56:13

But getting quality checking, editing, maybe

56:17

you will need an editor maybe but but, but, but where else winning in terms of in terms of ideas, and so you have to really stand out from the crowd, to be of any of any use to any investor. And that's a bit scary, you know, somebody was telling me like, for example, they can, they can listen to Sharia and Leona talk, generally at a cafe, get your voice modulation get the way how you use certain words, and then put together a podcast on say some other topic. So in some ways, there is there is a quality that you and I then drink, what is

56:58

this AI now that can mimic voices apparently, and do you know the whole podcast with AI that can, you know, replicate video, so if we give them like a lot of footage of video footage of our faces, then it can like create sort of these deep fake videos where it looks like it is so it's just like where is the limit then again, art right? When we talk about book covers or anything, there's AI that is just creating art in itself. So, even with books, I think there are now a few self published books that are coming out that have been written by AI right. So, writing the books with the help of AI and putting the books out as self published books. So yeah, everything

57:46

I knew and when when I when I when I first heard of it mentioned in chat GPT came out, I told one of my advices I said we need to have this topic at the end, because you know, there are probably going to be people have not heard of it and you know, suddenly it hits them, who wants a copyright to this text, which checks you know, how do you how do you give royalties to this, whatever. That is one thing. The second thing that's worrying is the influencer culture. So, there are people who are pushing books you know, might not be the next best book out there, you know. So So basically, I have as a publisher, I have the ability to manipulate a market with products that are not my best. You know, so I can I can I can slap on a good cover, I can slap on a good back text and you can have an influencer and I can get sales. What does that do to other books? What does that do to the backlist? What does that do to publishers who can't afford all of this? And then there's a question that we need to ask what does that do to the Indian language market? How do you get that? How do you get those things? So, yeah, so there are there are there are trends that are that are out there that need serious discussion? And what does it mean for in in publishing going forward?

59:21

What do you think is gonna be your next venture? Things where you know, you're seeing sort of the new gaps are the new opportunities with your like, creative, entrepreneurial approach, what is what is the next thing

59:40

we haven't quite thought about any next venture but we keep thinking about how we can make bookselling a little more fun. The tendency is to always gravitate towards the online the instant, but I think there are offline opportunities all So, you know, like in a place like GWA, which is, which is just 64 kilometers from, from west to east, we still have issues, we are still a Minister of State with only seven or eight bookshops, we still have accessibility issues. And we wonder what else we could do that, you know, the global fair that we did kind of open our minds to the fact that there are people who want want to have a book in their hands, so, we just can't make it to a bookstore. bookshops can also be intimidating, because the door is closed. Now, there's a lot of glass. And so you don't want to enter there, because then you might be expected to buy a boat or whatever,

1:00:47

you know, or maybe it feels like you need to know things like you need to be in the know how of this is third, these are like the, you know, great authors or, you know, like, sort of, I think that can also be intimidating,

1:01:02

you can be asking the wrong question, you know, because what will they say, and things like that, ya know, so and so we wonder whether, you know, we need more pop ups, we need more children's festivals to get them reading and things like that. So mind is working in those in those areas, but it's still within the realm of book selling, because that's something that we've come to enjoy.

1:01:28

Yeah, I've seen I think a couple of interesting, you know, traveling library kind of ventures where they just sort of, like pop up and like move from space to space, especially within smaller towns, where there aren't a lot of bookstores, or I think there was this thing. Books on the metro, I think, which was, yeah, in Delhi, where they would kind of do a lot of book activities or book selling, I'm not sure. But on the basically Delhi metro line, which I also thought was very interesting.

1:02:04

Abroad, this happens a lot, because you know, you have a, they have a lot of markets keep happening. So they just went up their thing there, which is slowly happening, not go also, like, for example, tomorrow, we are going to see one such market. And we'll just be putting up a stall there. And, you know, we are also now looking inwards. We started with an All India conference and all but now we are focusing a lot on go outside, because there's so much more to hear itself.

1:02:35

Definitely, especially with like the tourism boost, and a lot of people moving to go as well. A lot of new kinds of readers enter into go on. Yeah. Yeah.

1:02:49

Especially the local, the Indian tourist. Because, yeah, yeah, the foreign tourists won't pick a book because it adds to the luggage but the Indian tourists, definitely a lot of local literature, a lot of the world literature, you know, literature is available everywhere, but that

1:03:12

that whole thing, the very local or the very global kind of extreme Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my first question is, what is one thing that you really want people or readers to know about indie publishing

1:03:28

that they bring that they said that trend in publishing so queer publishing gender publishing, all came first from indie publishing?

1:03:40

What is a bookstore like an indie bookstore in India that you really admire today?

1:03:46

Other than trilogy I've not been there in where they are right now but I was they were they were before this. So yeah, but but all the new book shops if I can just visited lovely places, meaning the one and the other one in guaiacol literati, then rationale books and Gangtok meaning these are shots you really want to make part of

1:04:15

you can give a shout out to whichever bookshops you want.

1:04:22

So, trilogy, but if it's in the because it's close by also, burgundy, Burgundy in Pune, also. Yeah.

1:04:33

Someone that you think is making waves in the industry today? Like good wave.

1:04:43

I think Gothica is doing some very good stuff at context. Some really nice books are pittas doing some really nice stuff and he would oppress most of the indie publishers like recharge job because you're so all these people If I think they did the real seismic things that are happening in India publishing is happening under the radar with indie publishers, you know, they don't quite get the mileage that they should get. They don't quite get the press that they should get. But when in so many Indian language publishers we've never heard of, probably never will hire of doing some lovely stuff.

1:05:27

Definitely. What is a fiction book or series or movie that you've come across that most accurately portrays Indian publishing? That's a tough one. Yes. Have you come across any? Because I haven't.

1:05:47

Ya know? I don't know if any publishing setup book in India, of you. Publishing is the

1:06:02

way publishing is this setting, right? No background is in the background. Yeah. Not a book. I can't think of a book. I've seen a couple of shows, maybe not Indian shoes. There was this younger NGO, which was based in the US, I think, a US few where it, it was based in certain like, sort of the publishing industry where this 40 year old woman pretends to be a 20 year old and go back to the industry. But that was very glamorous to whatever I have seen.

1:06:34

There is this book called My Salinger years. She writes about, and that there are many books, actually, foreign authors, but I don't think anybody has tried. It's I could be wrong.

1:06:46

There is Paper Moon, which is a bookstore book, Rihanna money. Which is, yeah, I think that books still about like running bookstores are set in bookstores, or there are events happening in bookstores, but maybe not sort of a publishing house kind of space yet.

1:07:06

But if you want to, if you if you're looking for books that you know, kind of symbolizes Indian publishing, there is this group of there is this two, first time Volume One and first and Volume Two, by Yoda press, these are graphic books. And it's an it's a talks about so much that he talks about the collaborative way in which these books are done. It talks about the tangible the risk that smaller publishers take with, you know, form and genre and material that is covered. So many of them, you know, no way you will oppress. They just they're just, they're just so eager to push them push the envelope on Indian publishing, and I wish they got the distribution that they deserve.

1:07:57

Okay, one last message for leaders in India.

1:08:03

Because I'm a bookshop. Owner, I would tell them to go and get your next book from a bookshop, and go with an open mind and don't say, I want this author and I want this book. Just go and ask the guy, can you suggest me a nice new book, step out of the step out of your comfort zone, read something else? Talk about that book. Tag the shop.

1:08:32

That's a great message. Okay, thank you so much for coming on this podcast and having this amazing conversation with me.

1:08:39

Thank you. Thank you for having me here. Yeah.

Aishwarya  1:08:43

That marks the end of another episode of the book people. Tune in every Thursday for some breakdowns, some truth bombs, and some insightful and real conversations with industry experts about all things books. This podcast is created by Bob. We work with writers and brands to create content across formats, whether it's books, podcasts, newsletters or so get in touch to see how we can help you grow through stories and follow us at bound India on all social media plan. I'm your host ushers in follow me on LinkedIn where I share many, many more insights about books and content. Or you can get in touch with me at Ushuaia at bound india.com If you have any suggestions on topics I should cover, or if you want to book any of my services or consultation calls. Until then, keep writing