Aishwarya speaks with Amit Kumar, Senior Commissioning Editor at Taylor & Francis Books, India.
What classifies as a bestseller in the academic world? Is academic publishing suffering because of textbook piracy? How do textbooks get commissioned? Why is academic publishing on shaky grounds, and where is it headed in the next five years?
Listen in as Amit Kumar answers these questions and unravels the secrets of the academic publishing world’s future.
Amit Kumar has almost two decades of experience with five of the best publishing organizations in the country—Tata McGraw Hill Education, Pearson India, Oxford University Press, Orient Longman, SAGE Publications and is presently with Taylor & Francis Books (Routledge India Originals). He is well versed with the basics of publishing: editorial, marketing and sales.
Find him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/invertedimages
Aishwarya Javalgekar is a writer, book editor and podcast producer. As the Head of Originals she specializes in creating stellar content across formats - books, podcasts, newsletters, etc. She is a member of WICCI - Print Media and previous experience in Zubaan Books and Simon and Schuster Canada.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aishwaryajavalgekar/
Email: aishwarya@boundindia.com
Topmate: https://topmate.io/aishwaryajavalgekar
Brought to you by Bound, a company that helps you grow through stories.
Website: https://boundindia.com/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundindia/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/boundindia/
Twitter - https://twitter.com/boundindia
Produced by Aishwarya Jawalgekar
Edited by Kshitij Jadhav
Aishwarya speaks with Amit Kumar, Senior Commissioning Editor at Taylor & Francis Books, India.
What classifies as a bestseller in the academic world? Is academic publishing suffering because of textbook piracy? How do textbooks get commissioned? Why is academic publishing on shaky grounds, and where is it headed in the next five years?
Listen in as Amit Kumar answers these questions and unravels the secrets of the academic publishing world’s future.
Amit Kumar has almost two decades of experience with five of the best publishing organizations in the country—Tata McGraw Hill Education, Pearson India, Oxford University Press, Orient Longman, SAGE Publications and is presently with Taylor & Francis Books (Routledge India Originals). He is well versed with the basics of publishing: editorial, marketing and sales.
Find him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/invertedimages
Aishwarya Javalgekar is a writer, book editor and podcast producer. As the Head of Originals she specializes in creating stellar content across formats - books, podcasts, newsletters, etc. She is a member of WICCI - Print Media and previous experience in Zubaan Books and Simon and Schuster Canada.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aishwaryajavalgekar/
Email: aishwarya@boundindia.com
Topmate: https://topmate.io/aishwaryajavalgekar
Brought to you by Bound, a company that helps you grow through stories.
Website: https://boundindia.com/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundindia/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/boundindia/
Twitter - https://twitter.com/boundindia
Produced by Aishwarya Jawalgekar
Edited by Kshitij Jadhav
00:00
Mostly they would be selling your pens registers, specialty items
00:06
when it comes to your academic environment, it's one of the most neglected departments outside. So Academy publishing is anyway in India is, is on a very shaky calm getting that product out in the market and selling it it's completely different ballgame.
00:35
Right go to the BookPeople. I'm assured as a writer, book editor, Podcast Producer, and the head of originals at bam. In this heartbreaking podcast, I demystify the publishing and creative industries, and uncover the biggest opportunities and challenges for writers in India today.
00:55
Today, we're diving into the world of textbooks and academic publishing with Ahmed Kumar. So his experience spans multiple academic publishers. He currently works with Taylor and Francis, where He is the senior commissioning editor. But previously, he has worked at Oxford University Press, Pearson, McGraw Hill, sage, and many more publishers, and he has worked across different roles. So he has done sales, he has done marketing, and entered editorial. And I want to find out about every aspect of academic publishing and textbooks, from how he performed in these different roles, what they actually included, and what is the world of academic publishing actually look like? So let's do it. Thank you so much, Ahmed, for coming on the book people. My pleasure.
01:47
Yeah, I'm very excited to talk to you because you know, academic publishing is something that we haven't covered so far. And I really want to go into, you know, the entire process from sort of editorial to even distribution and marketing, what exactly goes into academic publishing and what goes into making, you know, academic books, or even textbooks or even, you know, research papers and things like that. And you are really the perfect person to talk to, because you have worked with so many like top academic publishers in India, your work with Oxford University Press, Pearson, McGraw Hill, sage, now, Taylor and Francis. So my first question for you is why academic publishing? You know, Was it intentional for you to get into academic publishing? Or is it just something that happened, and then you kind of stuck in your journey? See, when I started out,
02:45
I wasn't aware of this academy, trade or anything, I mean, different your
02:51
versions of publishing. So only after spending few years, I really came to know that a few months, because I started my career with sales, and why he joined orient blonde, but now known as Black Swan, and they publish all kinds of books, right, from school books, to academic your trade and everything. So there was no distinction at searching there. So we at that point of time, in 99, early 2000, everyone used to do everything.
03:24
And my career started as a totally I was started with sales. So for me, it was
03:32
in terms of going out in the field to sell the book there. The it came to me gradually that yeah, this book needs to go to institution, this book needs to go to the certain kind of bookshops. Not that well, not that those based in like any university bookshop, because they are,
03:50
primarily are intended for your academic publishing. So this is a trade book, this should go to this distributor. So yeah, it came out gradually. But revision almost based on audience like who was the audience for the book would define whether this goes into a bookstore, whether this goes into like a to a school, and then becomes a textbook? Yeah, school books are completely different. So when I interest of the conversation when we discuss about books or textbooks, it will be higher education textbooks, right. So yeah, exactly. It's the readership and also the content because the readership is defined by the content that the book corrects. As I told you that initially, there was even within the organization, there was do distinction between how we work with apart from the editorial setup, which there were different setups, different verticals, for your school, for your academic for your trade, but when it came to sales during those days, there was no distinction as such. So we were doing everything. Right. So yeah, after a while, within the organization itself, there were certain kind of restructuring where it was decided that the school textbooks or educational publishing is going to be separate.
05:00
Get it out of the rest of the publishing, which they called at that time, higher education, publishing, and it included everything. So then after a year, I got into your higher education publishing, so I left schools and after that
05:14
I'm not sure if it was intentional or not, but it happened. So after it happened, I start to that field higher education, and they were got into your educational and school publishing. Okay. And I was actually also curious about what you mentioned, you know, you started with sales. So, you've also had that very interesting journey from you know, like a sales marketing growth role to you know, have a like, editorial role. And then now, you know, becoming the senior commissioning editor. So, how did that transition happen? My first organization into sales was intentional, I got into OBS and started selling everything, and after the company decided to restructure its product portfolio into your two distinct setups, two distinct verticals, one was school education, and the rest of the rest of the publishing was they named it or categorized it as your higher education vertical. So, I got into higher education, and after that, it was pretty much intentional, as I told you before. So, I stuck to that. And sales helped me a lot
06:26
in building up my career later on, because it gave me enough understanding of the importance of getting the product sold, which is really important. So, I mean, we always we can see or we always say that it is basic product, not only books, anything is of highest quality is the best one, but ultimately the success or failure is decided by how it's taken up by the your end user for whom it has been designed.
06:55
So, this understanding
06:59
is much easier to imbibe or get when you are actually out in the field selling the product.
07:06
Right. So I mean, especially what happens that
07:12
as a as a as a product manager,
07:16
for any organization, or any industry,
07:19
we always say that whatever I have done, this is the best. But again, getting that product out in the market and selling it it's completely different ballgame.
07:31
Right? This is two different things. You know, I had a conversation recently with Leonard Fernandez, who has you know, who runs sentimental and has the dog years bookshop, the bookstore and he was also talking about how sales is so important for books because, you know, it's the people who are selling whether at bookstores or in publishing houses, who really know what the reader wants, and who have that have that direct access to you know, exactly what is happening with the readers what is happening with the distributors rather than you know, the the publishers or the editors who are just trying to Innocence guests right, like because that is that distance. So I think that's very interesting. So, you were in sales, I think till Pearson and then at Sage you Oh up
08:19
up so OBS or orient LogMeIn at that time and all up was by
08:27
stint with sales in PSN, I moved on to marketing and from there it was even in terms of your product profile, it changed completely I got into your higher education textbooks.
08:40
because up till now, up was again hardcore Academy OBS was mixed, but at PSN, it was complete higher education textbooks and it was marketing function, it was a marketing role, no direct sales and though direct content acquisition as well, what we call commissioning, yeah. So, it was in between sales and in terms to put it or simplify it, it was it is a position which is very much in between your sales and marketing, sales as your commissioning, sales and editorial Okay, and then you move to editorial right with sage with McGraw Hill with McGraw Hill was my first
09:23
full fledged pure commissioning role I got into your acquisition
09:29
profile.
09:31
So there they are starting up your
09:34
new vertical it was there but there was not much focus on that. Your Humanities and Social Sciences publishing and textbooks obviously McGraw Hill also is very hardcore, your
09:45
textbook publishing organization.
09:49
It's really interesting because you know, the reason I asked about that journey is for a lot of people who want to work in publishing, you know, anyone who thinks like most people who think they want to work in publishing the
10:00
Only thing that I like is editor that does the only role they know. So that is sort of the dream key, oh, if I want to work in publishing, I want to become an editor because I like reading books or I like writing, right. And then for a lot of people, it's that thing of, okay, if I can, uh, you know, they have that thought process of if I can get into publishing in the same marketing role, right, or in a PR role or in a different role, and then sort of transition slowly into an editorial role or into a commissioning role, actually, because I think commissioning is the dream role for anyone to have, which is that, you know, acquisition kind of identifying good content kind of position to be in. So I think in that sense, your journey was very interesting. But I really want to know, so because you know, you have been doing this commissioning content acquisition role. I'm very curious about how acquisition is different in like academic publishing or for higher education, especially textbooks, versus a trade book, acquisition, the very simple answer to it.
11:06
Your textbook publishing, when he talks about textbook publishing, it's very much confined within within a certain framework, or the syllabus what we usually say.
11:17
So textbook is tailored as per the syllabus of at university or any course curriculum.
11:25
Right, and the author, they do have freedom to write the book. But again, I mean, they can't write and we do not encourage to write anything extra.
11:37
Beyond the syllabus for various reasons.
11:41
When whereas when it comes to trade, publishing, and
11:46
talking about your nonfiction trade publishing, which is very similar to academic publishing, there is a very thin line between your nonfiction trade and your academy publishing what your TNF does, or up does.
12:03
But they are it's very much the way the manuscript or content is taken up, it's very much dependent upon whatever author wants to write. So there will be not many instructions coming from or guidelines coming from the publisher to the author, when it comes to academic or trade writing.
12:21
Again, fiction is completely different. But here, these are mostly when it comes to academic publishing, it's a macro study, I would say, it's very much narrow, focused,
12:34
you're on certain specific areas, topics, even the geographical regions, it might center around any state, any country, or even a district or a town. So that's the kind of difference between these two, whereas when it comes to textbooks, it's lots of instruction and syllabus are given sub topics topics, even even when it comes to know about certain
13:00
one or two new topics, for example, AI is coming up, I mean, now it has into your ecosystem, but three, four years ago, we used to say if the book was on it, or computer science used to say that just put one chapter a certain small topics on AI into it, or have any upcoming areas which might go beyond the syllabus guidelines or prescriptions.
13:24
So as a commissioning editor, what exactly then how does your role play out? Like, you know, like you mentioned with trade, or, you know, nonfiction, it's two ways, right? It's either Okay, authors or writers are pitching books, that so they pitch their books to publishers, publishers say okay, this is a interesting book has potential, so they pick up that book, they work with the author, the book is published, or the other way around, where the publisher says, okay, here is a gap in the market, right? This is a topic that is not being covered in a book, I want to cover it, then they find an author, the book is written, the book is published, right, which are the two ways but in say, a textbook, obviously, because you know, there is
14:09
it's not coming author first, right. So there is a clear syllabus. So what exactly is the process in the sense of, you know, is it that the university then gives you a structure and then how does your role play out in terms of getting that book written and out? The university doesn't? I mean, instruct us and we don't get in touch with the university. Because in India,
14:33
we don't have
14:35
any university press as such, I mean, any specific university, publishing their own book, just like your own up or your game phase of this and they have. So whenever the syllabus comes out, we know that when it's even starting out, or even if you're already there in textbook publishing for many years, if we decide that we need to come out with
14:59
say his
15:00
rebooked for Maharastra boot. So, we get in touch with we first get the get to the syllabus which is available publicly on internet you know that we get to see that and then we decide about whom to
15:14
approach for writing the book. So Now very interestingly since you since you brought it out about Maharastra boot
15:23
faculty from Delhi University can very well write a book
15:28
I mean a specific to that syllabus, but what publishers normally are usually do that they will try to find someone from her Astra
15:42
because there is a kind of term which we can say is like reasonable recognition.
15:49
So, we will first try to get author from Bombay University Pune university or any university based in Maharashtra and then approach few of them to write a book. So, it all starts from there, okay. So, then say for example, you know, say Taylor and Francis has its own textbook right, same following the same example which is Maharashtra board ba one history, then does Oxford University Press have its own version, your own version, and then how do then colleges or institutions decide which version to go with? How many publishers, they will get into that specific book for history, I mean, let's continue with that depends upon our assessment of how big the market is going to be. Firstly, right, if the market is very small, and some publisher they have already got into it, again, we will evaluate the commercial viability that whether it's, I mean, there is a point of going into that now.
16:53
But if the market is big enough, then obviously there will be
16:58
I mean, every major publisher, including the local ones, now, which book will be successful depends upon especially we're talking about textbooks depends upon certain parameters like the authorship, how will the author is known across Maharashtra across the state
17:18
textbook, they are very price sensitive.
17:22
So, what's the price of the book
17:25
right. And, and thirdly,
17:30
if you have gone through any of the syllabus, there are a few titles are mentioned over there.
17:36
So recommended textbooks and references. So, in the recommended books list, whether it falls into the textbook category, so if it's there, what happens that if it booksellers they store it looking into that syllabus, they go through that, right, they see that the book is mentioned there, over on the syllabus, they zoom and rightly so, that students will come ask me for this book, right. So, they store it, they keep it has automatically got credibility by being on the syllabus as on the syllabus. Yeah, but again, Social Sciences is different in the field, there are daily titles. For example, if I may say like, rubella topper, I mean, for uncertain industry, I mean, how bootcut Avenue, here in Indian market and across the globe for many years. So, you will see that even if that particular book is there in the syllabus or not, the bookseller will have one or two copies within.
18:39
So it depends, but for a new book, and it's extremely syllabus oriented book, yes, this is the way what it will do. And it does give credibility and we fight for it.
18:50
To get the book into the syllabus as the first recommended text, not the second one of the third one. All right, is there for the first oil on the top on the top. Right. That's why then like you said distribution and sales becomes very important in terms of the success or failure of the book because you could have a very, you know, you could have a very well written book following the syllabus with a very good author. But if you don't get that distribution thing crack, then the book is not going to sell me if it's not in the bookstores, if it's not getting that demand. It's not on the syllabus. This this hurdle has built it down. I mean, after your invasion of Amazon I would say because now they are I mean you can get your book or anything what you want in every nook and corner of the country. So you know that they can get a bookshop set close down, even though your when it comes to your university or college bookshop also, I mean very few are surviving these days. If you visit a the bookshop in other than metros, I would say
20:00
They call this bookshop, mostly they would be selling your pins, registers, stationery items
20:08
for this reason, because it's not possible for them to give whatever discount Amazon is offering.
20:15
And with such a small setup, it's really important. I mean, it's very critical for them to
20:21
get their economics right. If I'm not to give the discount survey they give away 20% What they are going to get, because they don't have that much volume makes sense. So, institutions
20:34
do the teachers then individual teachers because obviously students will look at the syllabus to choose books right. But a lot of times
20:42
it's that students are given certain books right where they are told key okay, you know, I am teaching this this is the book to follow or like the school will have a mandated set of books for each for all the subjects together right. So, how does that work is it that the institutions are then choosing from the syllabus based on their own understanding what books to go for or is it that individual teachers are choosing and then you have to kind of get on the radar of the individual teachers to make sure that they are choosing your
21:14
again, there are
21:17
two different kinds of setups here in India in terms of your social sciences and management titles.
21:23
So, when it comes to management institutions, usually top run institution what they do that the same selection process
21:34
goes out books are selected, rather one book is selected. And that book is part of the package that students receive. Yeah, right. So, what happens that if a book is selected, that book is bought from the publisher, depending upon the quantity depends upon your the enrollment size, it can be 101 20 even 300 Something like that, even in the management, if you leave some top run institutions, the book is recommended. But I mean, the student can go for any other title as well on the same topic, they may go
22:15
because they are not enforced, there is no assured purchase from the publisher. Right? Right. So, B rank seed an institution, they recommend it everything happens the same way.
22:28
But student can have their own book or they I mean, they can even decide not to have any book with them.
22:36
But there at least the book is there and mostly, even if student they don't buy the book, they follow that Facebook group from anywhere else, they managed to get it when it comes to social science, it is completely different first thing there is no forced buying or no compulsive buying from the institution or university, it's recommended that so, so, students
23:01
you can see or if you sometimes you get a chance, you will see that student buying
23:07
books from local publishers on the same topic, because they have normally used to pass the examination.
23:13
And instead of what we have realized that many times a certain section of students and unfortunately, they constitute the larger chunk.
23:26
They are more interested in just passing the examination and the books from the local publishers which are primarily in question answer format that serves their purpose well, and they are cheaply priced as well.
23:39
So they go for that
23:41
and even for
23:43
top 1015 person for which we stand publisher fight it out.
23:49
It's not necessary that they will fire up they will give go for the books that was recommended syllabus. If it's answered India, they can go for any book based on ancient India because every publisher, I mean, they try or not try but they publish their books or tailor the book or structure the book as per the syllables.
24:10
So it's more or less similar and what we can depreciate it differentiate from the publisher by putting some additional pedagogical elements and your the video presentation, the only way we can differentiate otherwise, the basic content the cover is remains the same.
24:29
So what is the, you know, the number like in trade, for example, the big thing is okay, if you sell 10,000 copies, which very, very, very rarely books do in India, but it's like if a book sells 10,000 copies, it's a best seller, right? Or it's a successful book in that sense. So what is the number you know, what are the kinds of sales numbers that textbooks get? And what is a what counts as a successful book?
24:59
In academic
25:00
publishing
25:02
what textbook the best seller? The number can vary from one lakh copies to 2000 copies.
25:12
So it's yeah, it's like that
25:17
there are few books like on marketing management, your eventual behavior with sales into lakhs.
25:25
Right. And there are other books also which are also basically consider it the sales for example 5000 copies for an operation research to
25:36
research method, these kinds of your if 5000 copies, that's a good number considering the fact that unlike your academic titles, textbooks, they have a very long shelf life. Yeah, right. When the addition lasts for nearly three to four years, or sometimes even five years after that the book gets revised. So it gets a new lease of life for another three, four years. The book gets into that cycle, it means that book is getting popular and accepted.
26:10
So once it gets into your third or fourth edition, it means the book is selling more than 10,000 copies here. I mean, it can be safely assumed. Right? So in terms of the longevity
26:22
of people asking for those revisions, because yes, books, I agree textbooks do have a long shelf life. And also textbooks are something which people pass on a lot, right? Where it's like, you know, people buy secondhand textbooks or people shopping that
26:38
yeah, we always
26:41
have to, and we can't do anything about it. Yeah, like we will buy secondhand or people give their textbooks because it's like, okay, if I studied and I finish, what am I gonna do with this book or they use it as a reference book for many years. So, in that sense, they do stay for a very long time or people photocopy books as well, that is something photocopying is not that much viable these days, because even
27:05
the cost of photocopying has gone up. And even books are not that much after the usual online discount that we get 600 700 rupees and the photocopy looks completely different. So if you have to get one or two chapters photocopied that's fine. Otherwise, mostly, I don't think that your textbooks getting photocopied unless until these are the imported ones, which costs 1000.
27:30
That's true. So, I met What does a day in your life look like? Like a work day
27:37
would be in commissioning our day starts with authors and ends without us.
27:45
So, when
27:47
there are
27:49
projects we are working on, which are at various various stages of completion, right, we just started out in Midway, which is a few are there which are in advanced stages, then also we have to
28:03
look out for new content. So I mean, approaching new authors cold calling, and it's very
28:12
safest thing to do. Because and with the advent of internet actually or it has become very much easier these days. You have to just go to the websites and
28:24
all the details are provided you just communicate and then everything happens. Unlike older days when lots of traveling, I mean commissioning people, they used to travel a lot. Yeah, across India, yeah. Otherwise, how it go go go to going to get the authors because unlike your mother's writing for 3d titles, I mean, they were well known mostly mostly well known and they knew that we had to go
28:51
I mean, there are a few distinct few specific publishers, which used to publish them.
28:57
The authors come to the publishers now the publishers don't have to go. So it
29:03
happens both ways. Because
29:07
I mean, see, there is a limitation how much books a person can write. Yeah, right. So, I mean,
29:16
barring few, I mean more than three books, I mean, very few, I'm sure that you must have seen that writing more than 234 titles.
29:25
So, you have to look out for the authors, even for your trade publishing.
29:31
So,
29:33
there are various sources to get that and they get into touch with them and they discuss the book the topic and
29:42
and the same process continues. Do you want to work in India's publishing and creative industries and be one of these cool book people that I interview in this podcast? Well, now you can. We at bound have come up with a three month comprehensive online course that
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33:17
So it becomes a highly competitive market.
33:22
And there is way to differentiate. And I mean, get into that crowd and how to get yourself identify that that we discussed. But it's really important for any publisher that to keep tap on your tab on the new upcoming areas.
33:39
And
33:40
that's the only way. What is the title you are working on right now?
33:46
I'm into your academic publishing. So the area that I am looking into is is psychology, education, geography.
33:56
So lots of scope, environment sustainability.
34:01
And what kind of books do you personally like? Focusing on like, what subjects do you personally feel strongly about? Are you as a person feel kind of more invested in psychology and education personally?
34:17
Yeah.
34:19
So these are really important time in psychology. So over the years become very important for
34:25
for all of us in various formats with a serious academic book career for somebody, a lay man, a gentle leader, especially after all the discussions on mental health going on.
34:37
So this is really important and
34:40
secondly, education because yes, that's the most important thing for all of us.
34:46
And if I can say so it's when it comes to your academic environment.
34:53
It's
34:56
one of the most neglected departments outside sector
35:00
Do you still love when it comes to social sciences, psychology is still
35:05
on the top, I mean highly regarded. You meet the faculty will come to know they're all top notch just across the country more or less.
35:15
But education is just the opposite.
35:19
I mean, barring your premier institutions, I'm not saying anything about them, like your Azim Premji your art is not about I'm not my comment is not for those kinds of institutions. It's more for your like, be it colleagues in say, up Punjab, even Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu variable.
35:40
I don't know much about the beard thing. But I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense. Like, at least psychology because I have an interest. I'm not studied it. But I am interested, I do know I have a lot of friends who have studied psychology, and I've seen that the quality of kind of the educational material that is available is really good and really strong when it comes to psychology. Exactly. And also in terms of just economics,
36:07
I can say so based on my experience, that
36:11
student to purchase ratio, when it comes to social sciences, psychology has got the best distribution.
36:19
They actually buy the books, and they read books.
36:24
Yeah.
36:26
Makes sense. So you know, we discussed all these things about
36:31
in like, how people say resell books, or you know, use old books or share books, or, you know, now there's also digitization, right. So people usually create like online versions of the books, which are then pass around for free, whatever. So like, whatever versions of, I guess, piracy, or whatever we want to call it, which is not essentially leading to book sales, but the book is being used. What is your just opinion about this overall? And is there something that publishers are doing or try to do to overcome that? Or are they just like, this is a lost cause this is just gonna happen. We gotta cut our losses.
37:12
Two things here, first thing digitally digital deletion of your to what is happening of your content. So
37:22
we are publishers are not hampered with that.
37:26
Right? Because the industry which is
37:30
being affected by all the digital processes and conversions, are the your paper industry and printing industry.
37:39
Right. Right. So I mean, those that's a completely different entity, because you can still sell ebook versions of textbooks, like E textbook. Exactly. I mean, even before that, before the advent of your, your ebooks, what publishers used to do, I mean, our work stopped at you're
38:01
in a sense
38:03
to, after you're creating your print files.
38:08
After that, it went to printing press. Right? Right. So that's a completely industry, a completely different industry. Secondly, paper and other thing was negotiated by the publisher, of course, but again, that is a different industry. So we are not getting into those.
38:25
Right, and at the same time,
38:30
we can see so it's helping us out in reducing the cost also because warehousing cost has, it has gone down. Yeah, if you are not spending on paper and printing, then basically you can also price lower because then your cost is the editorial and basically design cost of putting that book together in that
38:53
pricing. If you look at your price difference between your digital copy and print copy, it's not that much. Okay. It's almost identical.
39:07
And when it comes to academic title, it's almost say it's not almost but it's it's exactly the same.
39:16
So we are not affected by that.
39:19
Of course, yes, your piracy a bit. Again, before the digital thing happened, you know that a trade lights it affects signals. I mean, lots of your so many vendors selling out the pirated copies and almost 1015 years ago, if I'm correct, I mean, few publishers, they went to make a formal complaint to
39:41
police department but nothing happened. And then after lots of five, they just gave up that this is not going to happen.
39:48
I mean, this is not going to change. Yeah. Because it's been going on for so long as well for so long, and it's very difficult for the administration to understand and even to
40:00
say that what piracy actually is your movie industry piracy happening over there.
40:07
That has they have understood it to an extent. But when it comes to books or content, still, I think we have a long way to go.
40:16
And it's much more easier for books to pirate because file size is very small. And this is one of the thing it's very easy to
40:27
make it available everywhere.
40:30
It's convenience also, it's very easy for books to get pirated digitally Also, unlike movies, which minimum 600 MB is minimum requirement, which was used to be so that required some space.
40:43
That's true books are very easy, but also there is this other argument, you know, I'm just like this whole ethical argument or piracy right? One is obviously, you know, when it comes to textbooks, what that means for sales numbers right. But when it comes to say like academic papers or you know, these research journals, like you have JSTOR and these platforms, where research journals are available, for kind of students to access, usually, these are so, you know, high priced or they are inaccessible, and so, there is a lot of this argument when it comes to educational like academic material, right, which is that because there are these platforms where you know, you can get like research materials, open source, like research papers, or open source books available that people can kind of download and access, so that they don't have to sort of keep buying books and sort of spend that much money on education. So, as a not as you know, Taylor and Francis, but as a myth, what is your opinion on just like the whole piracy debate in terms of one obviously, key publisher should not lose money, but also second, how can then like research materials, academic things be more accessible to students who want to do that effort to study you know, and who want to kind of gain that knowledge or have that research material for their research? See, for the, for journals, universities, mostly they subscribe to that and the economics of the overall business, because the size of readership is so small, that's the primary reason it becomes expensive, but again, publishers market it as an institutional product, not an individual product,
42:33
right A journal is a very micro study of any specific topic. So there will be obviously very limited readership with all the kinds of investment that has gone into Dogen justify to price that even 510 paces on your content to be available for 10 rupees or 50 rupees or even 100 rupees. Secondly, distribution is a very difficult path.
43:00
Even today, even for the physical book, I went there for this, how to reach out to your audience, there might be 1 million data for a the
43:09
specifics a topic a
43:12
but in case that 100 million or even 1 million they are willing to buy
43:18
then the cost can be reduced.
43:21
But this is not the case. Because of the
43:25
your,
43:26
the way these studies are focused, that they are very few takers. So that's why it's always sold as bundle as package to institutions from where the students they can always access it.
43:37
Right dream is it University has access to your journals. What you mentioned and
43:44
access is given to their every student.
43:47
Right? But it's just I just find that holding very interesting for example, me, right. So when I was doing my undergrad, like my Bachelor's, I had access to JSTOR because my institution had this subscription to JSTOR. So I could access research articles on JSTOR for social studies, humanities,
44:08
social sciences study, right, the moment I graduate, I lose access. So now I cannot go back. So it's that hustle, right where it's like, while I'm a student, and I have official access, I need to download everything that I can download and keep because the moment I am officially not a student, I've lost access. Now if after that degree, right? If I want to do any research, or if I want to do additional research based on research I did in when I was studying, I can't do that because I have lost access
44:41
because the university affiliation, then say I go somewhere else, I go to another institution to do a master's. Now that institution has a different subscription, it is not JSTOR based on whatever that institution wants. So those nuances I think are very interesting because
45:00
then it is like you know, based on your what institution you end up going to there is also such a win and lose because each institution will have a different way of how they are giving access to students. Like in some cases it will be like okay full and you know, like sort of
45:17
complete access write complete access, how much ever you want to download in some cases based on how many students they are trying to it will be like, Okay, you can download up to three articles and then after that, there is some sort of like stop like, there is there is a limit in terms of what kind of access is available. So, those variations, I think, what you're saying is right, but because of that model, those variations are so, you know, different and like differ so much based on like student to student to student, that that access becomes such a problem because you there is no blanket statement to be like students have this much access or students don't have this much access, which is why I also feel like students end up going and you know, just finding other ways to get access, which is more guaranteed in a way and not based on you know, dependent too, unlike times and institution affiliations and these kinds of things, I would say that look at look at the older days, when institution they subscribe to any journal, they used to get the printed copies and same goes for books also, right, it was the same story. If the book was textbook, they bought it in multiple numbers for your research based or your
46:39
academy kind of books or reference books, one or two copies usually for every
46:45
across every institution across India. Now,
46:50
for textbooks, for example, institution bought 20 copies.
46:55
So, over the period of time, after a year, there was a repeat purchase, because the book used to get because it used to travel so many hands that the book used to get destroyed. No, right. So they were repeat purchase. So publisher used to survive,
47:11
because for the apart from the multiple editions, textbook getting into multiple editions, this was also happening. Yeah, but now with the digital Advent, this has stopped
47:22
right once it is there forever. So, we need to survive also, and I must put it because you are
47:32
kind of
47:34
giving a this conversation is for your academy publishing. So Academy publishing is anyway in India is
47:43
is on a very shaky ground, right, because of the phone scratches. And even the the way you said, you know that the way
47:53
the material is available online. So students like you, I'm sure you're smart enough to get the material having access to the material from here or there or elsewhere. Right. But yes, for us to commercially survive, it's really important that that whatever valuable contents that we
48:17
collate, and produce, create and produce,
48:21
those are the
48:23
remain commercially profitable to us to survive. And it's not only about the publisher, it's also it's equally important about the content creators, the authors.
48:35
Otherwise, what's there for you, as an author to write, if your material becomes available everywhere, you will be
48:45
happy, I've seen that, from my experience, I can tell you that you will be happy
48:51
for a while that okay, my book or my journal is, is in every hands, not hands, but now every laptop. But after six months, or seven months, a year or two years, you are going to write to the publisher that my book is being read by everyone and I haven't got a single royalty.
49:10
compensation for the author and author. Also, though academic authors, I do agree that they don't write for money.
49:18
The purpose of writing unlike your fiction and others,
49:22
it's more and again, more of an academic work for them. But again, it's a kind of bonus, which makes them happy. And it's not about money, but more money they get it.
49:32
It's primarily signifies that your book is being bought and read.
49:36
Right. It's encouragement for them. Yeah, no, I agree with you completely about the publishers meeting to survive. I just wanted to have that discussion. I also have one more question because you have a lot of authors. So this is just like personal curiosity. So I see a lot of you know, researchers who think about turning their research into books right now this is not a
50:00
textbooks but academic publishing versus trade publishing nonfiction. So when they're thinking of, okay, I have done this research, I have this knowledge, I want to turn it into a book, this becomes a very interesting question for them, which is like, should they go for academic publishing and publish right? In a more academic book style, which is for their peers, like other people who will have that same level of knowledge, domain knowledge? Or should they go, you know, trade nonfiction, and write a book, which is giving that same research but making it accessible to just general public, right? Something that everyone can understand and write a trade book? So for that kind of a question, which is, you know, if someone comes and asks you, okay, I have this research now, should I write a nonfiction trade book? Should I write an academic book? What would your response be? I guess, it depends upon the content. I mean, what the person has written, and I'm sure that if the person
51:01
he or she is thinking about getting their research work published, they are
51:07
younger ones, right. So of course, it will be very difficult for them to understand whether my book or research paper, if converted into your book, is going to be more of an academic
51:20
in nature, or it has got sub your you're
51:25
still to go into the trade market? Publishers will tell them, I mean, that it's completely this decision rests with the publisher that whether they would like to consider it as a trade or an academy reference, what where do you see the future? Because, you know, you're talking about how, right now, academic publishing is a little bit on shaky ground? Where do you see Academy publishing in India being in, say, the next five years? In I said, shaky grounds, because currently the funding crunch, and because of all that, because everywhere, Academy publishing depends upon or thrives on your, your government funding.
52:06
Not only the, your publishing, but your research work also, and publishing comes out of that. Right. So I mean, once that changes, I mean, it's, it's, things are going to improve. So it's not like that it's going to closed on, content is going to be generated research is going to happen. And all those research, they're going to be published and going to be read. I mean, the format has changed only these days. And again, if I may say, so, books, or physical books, they very much still exist, and they will exist, right? And any variation variations in it in the future based on whatever is happening, for example, you know, now we have a lot of ebooks, right? Like, a digital versions of textbooks. Do you see say, research being the research output instead of a book being a podcast? Or do you see you know, AI impacting the entire academic publishing process in any way?
53:08
First thing, podcast post podcast is it's not reading, right?
53:14
Therefore, your language skills, we all know that reading, writing, speaking and listening.
53:21
So podcast is not reading first thing. Yeah. Right. Reading is a completely different experience. And I don't believe in listening to books at all.
53:31
It doesn't feel like book, maybe new generation, it might be different for them.
53:39
But I mean, there's nothing new to tell me that when you're reading a book, you're just reading the book. But when you're listening to something, we are doing everything. Apart from listening. It happens. I have seen that. Yeah. Right. So it's not reading. It's very difficult for me, I'm not a technical person. So I mean, for the next 1015 years, I think the research AI, how much they are going to get into that, or if they are going to write a book themselves. That I don't know. I mean, there has been a couple of trade books written by AI that have started getting published.
54:19
Yeah, I think that do you think it will happen?
54:24
It's very difficult to predict the future for me that how it's going to change
54:28
but 1015 years I think it's going to happen
54:32
I mean, human mind if it can be replicated in that in that precise manner that that that they can think like us then
54:43
again, it's like
54:45
I think we need to find reasons for us to survive that whether we should live or not.
54:53
If everything is done by them. Yeah, that's more will more we movie like situation
55:00
Okay, what is according to you the toughest part of academic publishing? And what do you enjoy the most about your role? Or what you do? After you spend a substantial number of time in this industry? There is nothing as very tough or toughest part. I mean, right from your seat again. Yeah, one thing, it's not for me, but writing a book is a very labor intensive work from the author's perspective.
55:31
Right. So
55:33
in few instances, we do have to follow up with them a lot. Not because they are not they're willing to write, but they're obviously too busy with their own your teaching assignments and other things. So the weight?
55:49
Again, it's not very tough, I would say, because we are not dealing with or not
55:55
working on just one or two proposals. So there are hundreds in the pipeline. So that's one of the things that many times I've been waiting for the authors are waiting to get the manuscript completed. But again, it's not very tough. It happened earlier. Also, it's happening also, because humans are doing it anyway.
56:15
So nothing has such
56:18
an interesting part. Yes, interesting part is, like I told you, I mean, in that context of, especially when I was working with textbooks that discussing the new upcoming topics, new areas, which might, I mean, get into
56:34
the syllabus, in future, because obviously, I mean, at that point of time, you can't bring out a textbook, because then again, when it comes into textbook profile, then it has to get certain number of minimum sales number attached to it. But it's an upcoming topic. So yes, obviously, then we start discussing or getting a reference or academic book on that topic. So that gradually, three, four or five years down the line, if something comes up, then that can be transformed, or a new book can be written on that topic. So that's the most interesting part.
57:05
Thanks. I'm just gonna do a quick rapid fire round. So I have four or five questions for you. Which if you can just answer quickly, that would be great.
57:15
Okay, so okay, my first question is, what is your favorite title that you've commissioned so far?
57:26
Rapid fire out of more than 300 titles. It's, the first one that comes to mind is the answer.
57:35
The first one will be the first book that I commissioned that Introduction to Psychology. It was by Professor Amita. Brown at McGraw Hill. So obviously, that remains a special one that will always remain a special one for me.
57:49
Nice. So it was like when I held the book, it was like a team. You I mean, we've always it's my book. I mean, apart from the author, we are the second owners of any book that
57:59
definitely like the end, it's the first one is emotional, very emotional one. I still have five copies of the book, there's no way. Next is what you read for fun. I read serious nonfiction. So I don't read fictions. Though many of my colleagues and friends, they from publishing only, I mean, they told me, suggested that you should read
58:23
at least one fiction and the recommended god of small things. I'm still held to 330s, I think for the last six months.
58:33
So primarily history and politics. You're like, what is a nonfiction book you would recommend to people 1984 And this one animal?
58:47
Always, if not publishing? What would be an alternate career for you? I do keep thinking about it. Because I came into publishing very much accidentally, so I don't know that what I would have been doing so I
59:00
don't know. I mean, once a dream job.
59:05
Something to do with your cinematography.
59:10
Would you ever write a book
59:13
know
59:18
it takes special skill. I'm an academic work IT admin writing is different, which is manageable, but I'm not trained in that way. So even if topics do keep coming, because I travel a lot.
59:32
I find it difficult to put
59:35
those things into words because so many of my friends they have asked me to but
59:41
it's not easy. It's a very specific skill that comes to you and you might develop it I'm not aware of that. I haven't tried developing it with maybe travel. If it happens, okay, nice traveler would be interesting.
59:57
Okay, the last question I have is what is
1:00:00
One thing you want people to know about academic publishing, there's so many things. Sure, it's a very vast field. And in the academic publishing, I mean,
1:00:13
when it comes to the most interesting part you asked me earlier also, is that
1:00:19
there is
1:00:21
no dearth of topics where you can't work.
1:00:25
You just can think of dream of any topic under the sun, and you can find an author and start working on it. So it's a very big and vast playing field. And there is always somebody waiting to be asked to be to write something, you have to oppose them. That's a nice, that's a really nice message. I think that leaves a very positive and hopeful thing as well for people who might be interested in you know, writing for or even working in academic. Thank you so much for coming on the book people and talking to me about textbooks and academic publishing and everything that's happening in my opinion, I share it thank you so much. That marks the end of another episode of the book people tune in every Thursday for some breakdowns, some truth bombs, and some insightful and real conversations with industry experts about all things books. This podcast is created by Bob. We work with writers and brands to create content across formats, whether it's books, podcasts, newsletters, or so get in touch to see how we can help you grow through stories and follow us at bound India on all social media platforms. I'm your host, Ashley has
1:01:37
follow me on LinkedIn where I share many, many more insights about books and content. Or you can get in touch with me at Ushuaia at bound in the.com If you have any suggestions on topics I should cover, or if you want to book any of my services or consultation calls. Until then, keep writing