29. Why HarperCollins Is Investing In Audio And Screen Adaptations, With Arcopol Chaudhuri

Aishwarya speaks with Arcopol Chaudhuri, Executive Editor - Rights & New Media at HarperCollins India about the exponential growth of the audiobook market in the last 5 years, and other exciting developments in adaptation. How do rights and new media intersect? Why is HarperCollins investing in new media? How do publishers choose which books to adapt for audio and for screen?

Arcopol Chaudhuri is a publishing professional, an avid reader, and an audiobook buff. At HarperCollins, India's fastest growing and the world's largest education-to-entertainment publisher, he is a part of the rights & licensing team that generates revenue via sales of Indian and foreign language rights, film & audio rights, across territories and formats. His area of specialization is audio & film rights licensing. He also steers audiobook publishing for their growing audiobooks catalog under Harper Audio. In over a decade in book publishing, he has previously commissioned books, edited them, worked closely with publicity teams on marketing campaigns, and created newsletters.

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Aishwarya Javalgekar is a writer, book editor and podcast producer. As the Head of Originals she specializes in creating stellar content across formats - books, podcasts, newsletters, etc. She is a member of WICCI - Print Media and previous experience in  Zubaan Books and Simon and Schuster Canada.
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Produced by Aishwarya Jawalgekar
Edit by Kshitij Jadhav

Transcript

00:00

I think publishing as a as a business self will interact a lot more with different kinds of companies, you know, we'll interact more be more with an audible with a Spotify with bound. Interesting times ahead. Think of it as you basically hired an editor to just read it for you, you outsource the job to him or her, you know, just yeah, just read it out to me. And you know, it's you put your headphones on, you're probably walking or you're on the treadmill, and the book is being relayed to you, people are going to consume it the way they want, you know, I have a Kindle, I don't have space in my house to buy any more physical books. So I'm just going to stick to my Kindle.

00:37

Bone bound.

00:45

Welcome to the book people, where I decode India's media and publishing industries, and uncover the latest developments and the biggest opportunities for writers and creative professionals in India today. I'm your host, Ashley as Mr. geca. I'm a writer, book editor, Podcast Producer, overall media person and the head of originals. And

01:08

today, we're talking about new media. So in the last five years, publishing has seen a boom of books being converted into other formats. And obviously, you know, audiobooks are on the rise, more and more people are listening to audiobooks, you have these huge platforms like Audible and storytel, come into India. And even a lot of books are being adapted for screen right, whether it's for firms, whether it's for TV series, or your OTT platforms. And what I want to focus on is not just you know why these books are being adapted, but how publishers themselves are identifying the opportunity, and that investing more and more into making sure that day our books get converted into these different platforms. So for that reason, I'm talking today to alcohol shortly. He is the executive editor of rights and new media at HarperCollins. And he specializes, especially in audio and film licensing rights. So we talked about how flexible this crossover between the publishing and media industries really is. And he also shares how he came to be in this very promising and growing part of the industry, right, because he was at the right place at the right time. And he also shares what parameters they use to decide which books work well for audio, and which books work well, firstly, so let's tune in to high alcohol. Welcome to the book people. Hi. Hi, Oscar. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm very excited to talk to you. Because you know, this is sort of the new thing that everyone's talking about and publishing right now. Whether it's, you know, new media, whether it's the potential of audiobooks, or books being adapted to screen. So in a way, you work with two very opposite things for authors. One is the exciting new opportunities, which are these audiobooks, screen things, and on the other hand, with contracts, and writes the biggest sort of pain point or anxiety point for authors when it comes to thinking about publishing books. So my first question to you is, you know, what exactly does your role entail?

03:16

Okay.

03:18

My role primarily entails

03:22

looking for opportunities for taking an author's work, and finding new avenues to you know, adapt it. And that could be translated editions, that could be as audiobook editions that could be as you know, book to screen opportunities. And those things primarily, are what we call new media. But you could call them as what we call as derivatives, I mean, an author's work is, is something that, you know, he or she creates,

03:56

it can have life in various forms.

04:01

And it can allow people the freedom to choose which form to consume. So, someone may consume it as an ebook, someone may consume it as an audiobook, someone may, you know, choose to go directly and watch the, you know, the screen adaptation of it, they may not even read the book. And I think it's an evolving space. It's some it's a space that I think in the last five years or so,

04:24

has picked up a lot of pace. And in terms of developments within India. However, that was not the case. You know, say in mature publishing markets, like the US or the UK.

04:37

And I actually came into the space, say about six years ago, I think into 2016, if I'm not wrong, prior to that, I was a copy editor involved. My work involves basic, you know,

04:53

line by line editing of books and making sure they go to press working with the author and you know, sticking to a certain

05:00

timeline and publication schedule, I think I was probably very lucky to come into this the whole, you know, right space at a time when the space was, you know, wise to become interesting and full of new opportunities. I think for authors, it's a great time where these avenues exist, I think 10 years ago, 20 years ago, you wouldn't have heard of, you know,

05:23

audiobooks, and in the manner that we hear of right now, I mean, and I think largely that has to do with the fact that there are proper legit audiobooks, streaming platforms available in the country at prices that Indians can afford. The film industry, for example, has matured, and is a lot more organized in terms of actually reaching out and actually obtaining the rights to a book, and not merely sort of, you know, lifting a story without, you know,

05:55

consent, or, you know, I mean, an illegal sort of a copy of it. I mean, you must have heard of the whole, you know, chatter around pissouri.

06:06

In carta gardens, new film, and, you know, it seems like everyone's sort of re enraged, like, you know, what is happening, how, how has this been allowed? But what is that that is exactly what rights and licensing is, the rights of the song have been licensed in a manner and every party in that transaction is fully aware of what they're doing. It's not, you know, like, as if Ollie Satie has been wronged. And

06:30

I think every content creator or every writer

06:35

should be aware, or is aware, when they're writing or creating something new that what they want to create has certain derivatives, and those derivatives can be licensed in an appropriate legit manner of for some that seems reasonable, or against royalties, or whatever profit sharing terms are agreed upon. So that is the space which we are in. And I'm very fortunate to be in that space at the moment, because

07:05

my colleagues really envy my profile, and they say, Hey, I love your job. But the truth of the matter is, I do love my job. I it's, it's, I mean, I remember, I think, about 10 years ago, when I came to HarperCollins, for you know, for, for my interview, and

07:23

I'm one of the first things I was told after, you know, the interviewer looked at my CV was, hey, you know, you've been jumping around a bit. And I was, I think it was, I was 2728, around that time. And I think the 20s are that sort of a time where you do want to explore what's really the right fit for you. And prior to joining Hopkins, I was a journalist had worked on social media for I had worked in a PR firm for about two weeks.

07:49

So I was really looking out for what's really, you know, what's really my calling, but I was fortunate to come to HarperCollins, and really find a place where I really felt like I really want to go to work, and you know, do what I'm doing. And I think I think that's one of the joys of publishing and working with books, I wouldn't have it any other way.

08:09

And I think the whole ecosystem is such right now, that is that a lot of crossover is happening. I mean, books, stories are crossing over into, say, long form podcasts. You know, you're, you're answering all the questions that I have for this episode. So

08:28

I'm just gonna touch upon. So there's a lot of crossover happening. And I think it's a great time to be in the space right now. Yeah, definitely agree with you. I think a lot of exciting things are happening right now, you know, like you said, in, you know, looking at different formats and books evolving in different formats. I think even for the screen, the sort of film industry or OTT industry is also really realizing the value that, you know, a good like a well written book has, where they can take those scripts and the value of I think storytelling, as well. How important that is in the ultimate sort of creation of that final output that comes on screen. I think more and more they're realizing it. And more and more, they're also looking towards books to provide those ready, well written stories. I think definitely that opportunity is very interesting. And also, I think authors are starting to get a little more knowledgeable, or a little more savvy about, you know, what are the possibilities that something they write can have in different formats and how you can take, you know, like advantage of that. So that is also something that I want to touch upon later. But coming back to exactly what you said, you know, I saw that, you know, you have worked as a journalist, you worked at DNA. You also you know, like you said you worked in PR I think you did a little bit of marketing as well. So how has all of that ultimately led you to editorial in a way right at HarperCollins? Because I think a lot of people who want to work with book

10:00

or with stories who are in media are trying to sort of figure out that journey. And sometimes that tends to be, you know, this assumption that, okay, you have to follow a certain path. In order to enter publishing, like, you need to have that English graduate, like bachelor's degree, English master's degree, and then enter publishing only as an editor. So since you have had such a different journey, what has that been like for you? And how did you take that opportunity? Honestly, I've always felt the imposter syndrome being in publishing, because I do not have the conventional lit, you know,

10:38

literally background or an arts degree,

10:41

or a humanities, you know, I mean, I think I'm not from that space. So I graduated with a Bachelor of mass media, which is a course

10:50

offered by my former university. And the day, my final exams got, oh, I began working the next day.

10:57

Because I'd found, you know, a decent sort of writing sort of an opportunity and, and at the time, we really needed the money. And I really wanted to be as real like a journalist for the longest time, because at that time journalism was hot. In, in Bombay, just, you know, I mean, DNA was a newspaper, new newspaper in Bombay, in the sense that launched new editions, you nowadays, you hear of additions shutting down at that time, the space was so hot, that, you know, you had you heard new additions being launched, you know, every seven, eight months, you know, or a new news channel being launched. And I think, when I joined HarperCollins, incidentally, I did not join in editorial, at the time, I was taken in into the marketing team. And it was a profile that was created, it was corporate sales and retail.

11:46

It was a space I knew very little about. And I had just moved on from fingerprint, which is an imprint of Prakash books. It's an imprint, which is incidentally, doing very well at the moment.

11:59

And it was the hunger to sort of learn something new that I said, Okay, let me just enter and see what's in it for me, and how can I contribute. But I think, given my inclination towards writing, and journalism, I always wanted to sort of move to editorial at some point of time, and somehow or the other the stars sort of aligned. And I was, you know, I appeared for a copy test, and then sort of eventually made the transition.

12:27

And I think a copy TEST is obviously, the, I think the first test of sorts, which sort of really

12:34

filters out, you know, who, who gets a chance to edit a book, and who does not get a chance to edit a book. And I think most publishing houses have that as a process, you know, no matter how senior you are, there is a copy TEST you appear for some people don't like it, but it is what it is, it's and you'd be surprised that, you know, we've often found a lot of very senior people not passing that copy TEST. And I came from a very simple background of, you know, I love reading books, I, my, my English was functional.

13:09

And I managed to sort of pass the copy test, and then I made the transition. And I think from there on, it's just been, you know, being with the written word, being with,

13:22

you know, working with authors understanding that publishing is a very author centric process, it's really the author's work, and you will eventually have to respect the author's decision, you know, journalism is very sort of rigid, because, you know, you feel you're this righteous person, you know, who knows what's right for society, and, you know, we are going to change the world, you are a bit NL about, you know, your copy, being sort of edited by a desk editor or something like that. But I think in publishing, you sort of see the other side of you, you because you become like an editor to someone who's written that works. So you really want to respect the process and the thinking. And there have been so many books where, you know, editors have, you know, edited, you know, sentences out and the author has said, stat, stat stat stat, just just, you know, just leave it as it is, it's fine. That's the way I want it to be.

14:10

And I think, I think my current profile is,

14:16

I mean, you could say it's a sum of all the experiences that have sort of led to this. I mean, journalism gave me a good drinks, have your have the media works.

14:25

I think corporate sales and retail gave me a good introduction of how, you know, the retail side of things work. And I think I must acknowledge Mr. God of cyber wall, who's who was sort of my mentor, because I transition from journalism to publishing at fingerprint. And for me to get such a good understanding of how the on ground distribution of books work, how the retail side of things work. I think I learned that when I worked with Prakash books, and I think I sort of brought that sort of learning to publishing so even now, I'm someone who enjoys just having that casual

15:00

to chat with the salesperson or just chatting with the marketing person or, you know, on understanding how things are going, what are the challenges they're facing. So I try not to isolate myself doing just what I'm doing. Conventionally editors tend to work in silos. And editorial is largely a very independent sort of a job, it's just you the text that you're working with, you have a stylesheet that you're working with, you know, you're figuring out this, the right footnotes, and all of those things. And you're working with the author. And you know, largely it's, you can work independently, it's not so much of a team job. But I think what I like is the larger parts of publishing. So one of the things I noticed in bound,

15:43

that you'd put up a post recently of, you know, the other jobs that are outside of editorial, I thought, that's a very, very good post, because I think most people approach publishing as editor, let's say it, yeah. And honestly, the editor really is the heart of the process, the editor reads, the book falls in love with it decides to, you know, sign up the author. And but then before signing up the author, he has to make a convincing pitch internally, to sales marketing, and the publishing team, say that, hey, I really liked this book. And I think we should publish it for these systems reasons. And this is how it's going to help. And this is how much I think it should sell. So yes, I mean, the editor is really the heart of the process. And even after the book is published, the editor is that one sort of, you know, helpline of sorts for the author, where you know, the author's, you know, anxieties, the author's concerns.

16:34

The editor is the one who really pushes things through. But But I like the fact that I'm able to sort of get a full, big picture view of how the process works. And you'd be surprised of how much work actually goes behind the scenes. I don't think I would have enjoyed it as much as I do. Had I not had, you know, different sorts of experiences leading up to this role. Yeah. Because they sort of help you do this role today. Right? Like, have that sort of broader perspective? Sure.

17:06

What you need to do, or maybe even different ways of looking at the book as well, right, which is obviously there is, you know, the one aspect of the book being the book or the manuscript, and the editorial aspect. And I think,

17:21

our idea with that post as well, right, it was very much you know, because so many people want to work with books, because we love books, so much like that has sort of been the entry point, or the aspirational entry point into the publishing world. But you know, people might not be, like you said, like, very good at English, or, you know, they might not just not have those particular editorial skills as such, that I needed. And so for people to just know that there are these different kinds of options, right, like they can focus on their strength within the industry, with their love for books and kind of enter the industry as well. And I definitely, you know, feel

18:03

with you when you talk about the imposter syndrome. Like I definitely relate, because I think a lot of people feel that way, right about whichever industry especially I think publishing is something that can feel that way. And I've actually, you know, a lot of people that I've interviewed, even for this series, have had very unusual unconventional paths into publishing, right, like the very first episode with Stanton Ghosh, even he read, he studied economics, he went into academic publishing, then he entered publishing, even with the Shanaya, she was working in finance. And from there, she entered publishing into marketing. So I find very interesting because, you know, we all have this idea of there being this linear journey, but most people I'm speaking to don't have linear journeys. They have these very interesting journeys. And always they speak about how that journey has, you know, the experiences that they've had with these different roles really help with the role that they're doing today. And, you know, sort of give them perspective in the role today. So I find that very fascinating. Yeah, yeah. But so in today's role, what does a day in your life look like?

19:14

So a typical day would largely be composed of the following.

19:19

You know, once you reach office, you've sort of settled on with a cup of coffee, you check your emails, and those are hygiene stuff. I'm not focusing on that.

19:27

But largely, you are looking at so so publishing is all about pre planning you so at this moment, I know what are the books that you're going to publish over the next 12 to 18 months?

19:43

And also obviously know what books have been published, what books are in stock, what books have copies available in what books or you know in stores, because we have a proper system and a process where that information is circulated amongst you know, the stakeholders so

20:00

So a lot of it is planning, and figuring out which books have what potential. So we we have a team, I, for example, I look after audio and look to screen that's like really a focus area, my colleague Redeemer, she looks after, you know, Indian language translations.

20:19

Make colleague told me she sort of sees, you know, supervises the whole thing. And we also work closely with the contracts team. So, just for clarity, we, I mean, I don't I'm not the one person who sort of is responsible for the authors getting signed into HarperCollins. We have a contract team for that.

20:39

And they're really the one with sort of legal sort of expertise by by virtue of working with rights you, you're required to sort of understand the legalities of a contract. What are the terms to agree for? What are the terms not too grateful? So let's say I'm looking at a list of books that's going to be published monthly, for the next six months, or the next one year, and I will have to identify, which are the big hitters for me, which are the books for example, that going by the storyline, the title, the profile,

21:12

and the rights that have been granted to HarperCollins? I can go after, what what do you usually look for? Like? What are your parameters for, say, a book that you think would work really well in audio, versus a book that you think would work really well on screen? Okay.

21:29

For audio,

21:31

I think we look at what's what are the genres that are doing well in audio. So for example, the genres that at the moment in India do well, or self development history, motivational stuff, I think horror does pretty well.

21:45

Biographies do well, and books on business, or business biographies on business turnarounds, they tend to do well, one of the one of the best books that we published in audio last last year was the biography of a failed venture. You could never imagine that a book that people would want to read the biography of a failed venture, but it's one of the best selling reads on audio. And those really aren't. So those are things are marking in that in an Excel sheet, which really has the titles listed out and figuring out which of the ones to sort of, you know, outline and shortlist for, you know, audio production. And, you know, after made that list, I sort of identified when do we publish those books, which are the studios we would work with? What are the narrator's you know, will sort of audition and whom will sort of finalize, so that all is, you know, deep diving into the processes one by one. So for audiobooks, HarperCollins does the production before going to say an audible or a storyteller?

22:41

At the moment we do, I think when we, I think 2016 or 2017, we, we weren't sure if he wanted to produce the audio ourselves. So we felt like the right thing to do was to, you know, license the rights

22:56

to, you know, one of these, you know, audio platforms.

23:01

And I think, in the middle of the pandemic, we felt like the time was right to really invest in our own production. And I think one of the reasons why we did that was because I think the authors really also wanted the audio book to be available on all platforms. So if you license a book to a platform, they'll have exclusive rights only on that left, let's say a book is lesson storytel. Someone might say, Hey, I don't have a stateless subscription, I have an audible subscription. And it's my bookkeeping article. And it's, you know, it's a bit of a bummer that it's not available, or audible has not expressed interest in acquiring that book strikes, people have said, Okay, we'll pass we don't want.

23:35

So either of those things. But when we produce it ourselves, we are able to distribute it on all platforms. So it's a bit like, you know, my book being available on Amazon, but not Flipkart. And we just had to just eliminate that and said, it's gonna be available everywhere, wherever audiobooks are sold. So that's the audio part of it for film, most of the job is building relationships. Because you're talking to producers, you're talking to studios, you're talking to people who are acquiring content for studios and really figuring out what is their mandate? What has Netflix told them? What are the ones what are the genres, they should sort of be seeing what the ones they should go after? And it's really building those relationships and finding out okay, here's this book could be the right fit for what you're looking for. I have a thriller that features a female, you know, detective or a female cop.

24:26

And probably there are three books in the series. So I can probably at least indicate that there will be multiple seasons of a show, maybe or maybe there's say a, you know, a period drama, you know, say like, like monopolize ivory throne, which you know, you can definitely expand into four or five seasons of really good content.

24:46

So it's identifying those books in your publishing list and seeing which are the books that will probably you know, have a higher chance of converting. They're obviously books where you know,

25:00

There is definitely a great story. It's very compelling, but it may not be the flavor of the season. And the thing about the book to screenspace is that sometimes there is a flavor of the season. And I think the flavor of the season for the last two years has been, you know, based on true events, to crime.

25:17

Real accounts,

25:20

horror, to some extent, even though, you know, it's not something that has really great numbers, but it still seems people want to watch horror. If it's, you know, well done. rom coms, of course, anything that's based on true accounts into events, because I think what the film industry looks at in publishing of books is the research on which one and a producer can constantly say, hey, look, I trust the book. I think the book has events in it, which, you know, which I can depend on to build a screenplay. And I can obviously dramatize it a bit, you know, I'm taking those liberties. So, you know, so you have scam, you know, 1992, based on a book, and the new scam we just got on the PLD scandal that's coming up in September.

26:05

So we're gonna love scams. Yeah, yeah.

26:09

It is. So if you see when I showed that, I mean, we crashed I recently finished watching, watching, we crashed, it's, it's, it's based on, it's based on a wonderful podcast, and you see that in the credits. And, and you feel wow, I mean, what an amazing transition from you know, someone must have done the research for the podcast, and they probably wouldn't have thought it is going to eventually make way for a film. So those are sort of the genres that you know, are hot and happening. But I think a genre for all seasons is crime and thriller.

26:38

Even if you look at books as a space, I mean, crime fiction is the highest selling genre, it's the bread and butter of, you know, the publishing business. So I think when I'm sort of planning and identifying those, I'm really figuring out which are the ones to go after, who are the producers to whom I should highlight specific books. And then working with authors to sort of, you know, build a proper pitch, and, you know, making sure the industry is aware of that these books are coming up. So that's largely the heart of the the job, after which comes the most tricky part, which is when you negotiate, you're negotiating deals, you're negotiating contracts, you're you're making sure the author's happy with the terms that you offered. And you'll be making sure the author has confidence in the process, because as a publisher, we at HarperCollins, we do not proceed on anything without an author's approval. I mean, an author's it's eventually the author's book, it's the author's work. There have been times when an author has said, Look, you know, I think it's a good offer for, you know, a film deal, but I'm not certain the producer is the right fit for what I'm looking for. And I've tried to convince them to say that, okay, you know, why don't you give it a shot, but at his or her gut, if she or she feels that, you know, this is not the right fit, we respect that decision, it's not something that we do. And I think once two deals are done, then one has to push for, you know, invoicing, making sure the money's come in on time, and ensuring that the terms are fair, the author is not being taken for granted, in terms of you know, it's not a one sided agreement. I think that's one of the strengths we bring to the whole negotiation process. Sometimes agreements tend to be very one sided. Yeah, sure, a lot of agreements are templated across the industry, but still, it's an agreement, and it's called an agreement for a reason, because you and I agree on something. It's It's not called, you know, notice, here, you know, it's, it's not notifying you, and again, it's an agreement. So there's always room for negotiation. So I think the recent writers strike in America is it's kind of, it's really an indication of where things will go in the future. And I think the day is not far when you know, writers in India, screenwriters will ask for more than the share of things. Do you want to work in India's publishing and creative industries and be one of these cool book people that I interview in this podcast? Well, now you can. We at bound have come up with a three month comprehensive online course, that gives you the skills and helps you get jobs in your dream companies, whether they are book publishers, magazines, literary agents, digital publishing platforms, or any other content company. So this course starts on 15th September, and essentially in 100 live hours, we will be teaching you every single aspect of the publishing industry, and you will get to specialize in a particular field of your choice. You will learn from over 70 top experts from the industry and a lot of the book people themselves. So imagine you could be learning directly from science and goes from there. Meanwhile, psycho my children shoot the valley radical Bardia the shot

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31:37

Guild in America is asking for from producers, which means whatever derivatives emerge from a book, and author, get some share of the each of those derivatives. Yeah, and that's already part of see a standard decent publishing agreement at India.

31:57

I mean, the ratios and the percentages might vary. So those things are negotiable, which is why the industry depends on royalties, right? It's very royalties driven models. So let's say you've you've written a book, and you know, you're getting an X percentage of royalties. And let's say, you know, for the first three years, the book hasn't done it, it's an okay business. But there might come a time in the future when something sort of triggers the sale to really shoot up. And that's when you can benefit from it. And it's lifetime, right? As long as the book is in print, the author, or the author's err, or, you know, the author's estate, I mean, they can continue to benefit from it. I think I like publishing for that reason. It's it's not, I mean, see, you know, I mean, the film industry, the music, the music industry, for example. The songwriters, for example, there was a landmark judgment with, you know, Java that sort of, you know, lead.

32:52

So, although that fights in the good direction, but I'm glad that publishing sort of really captures all of those things for the author. Yeah, no, I definitely agree. I think when it comes to writers, at this point in India, publishing seems to have the fairest like book publishing seems to have the fairest contacts. Yeah, in comparison, because I also have seen a lot of, you know, especially in the content and media industry, with a lot of companies coming up, you know, whether it's audio,

33:22

video, like screen production companies, I have come across a lot of very, very one sided contracts. And a lot of times, you know, writers don't know, like, because it's a lot of like legal terminology, right. And it's very difficult to catch red flags, or know that they're giving copyright away.

33:42

A lot of times completely right. So forget royalties or the duration in which they can get royalties. But a lot of times, they don't even realize that they're completely giving away copyright and essentially becoming salaried content writers for

33:56

ideas that they have created from scratch. So things like that have definitely been happening. And, you know, what does need to be aware of that, as especially I think the this fluidity is increasing rate between different formats, like you mentioned, we crashed, that was also going to be one of my questions. For example, there was cereal, right, which was, again, a podcast, became a book became a series that has been lower, which again, was a podcast became a, like a three book series and video series. So we're seeing a lot of these transitions of obviously book to screen and audio book, but also podcast to book or CDs to book and to podcast. And you know, so what does this fluidity mean? You know, because again, this question of what is a podcast versus what is an audio book comes into the picture in terms of execution of a book, or like adaptation of a book in the audio format. So are you seeing a lot of potential in this fluidity where you know, are you seeing at HarperCollins like picking up

35:00

Basically podcasts to make book deals or that fluidity increasing and what do you think that means for the future for authors or for creators definitely increasing going by recent examples. I think some I'm aware some contracts are still work in progress. But

35:19

the when we sort of acquire these books, it's, it's done as part of a, what we call in publishing as an acquisitions meeting where, you know, various stakeholders in the company, they sort of discuss and debate, the merits, the challenges, the strengths of the book and decide, okay, what we're going to offer on, I think the fluidity is great for a writer, because it's taking their work to a new sort of format, I still feel that one must also focus on the adaptation, when you transition from one format to the other. So for example, and I'm looking really done the micro stuff here, okay. I mean, there's the script for a podcast, and the text on a page of a book, they are going to be different. When it's a podcast, you sort of choose, for me, not very heavy words, you know, it's, it's a bit like, and I'm referencing my journalism days. So let's say two reporters have gone to report on a story at a specific crime scene, the text of the television reporters, you know, voiceover is going to be a little different from the text of the print journalist. Similarly, for a podcast also the,

36:33

the text will be slightly different. And for the book, the text is going to be slightly different because it's appealing to the reader. I mean, the book is going to appeal to someone who's going to read it, coming to a question about, you know, audio books and podcasts, I think, I think the audio book, by its conventional sense, should be a literal, straight reading of the book, Think of it as you basically hired an editor to just read it for you, you outsource the job to him or her, you know, just yeah, just read it out to me. And you know, it's you put your phones on, you're probably walking or you're on the treadmill, and the book is being relayed to you, so you have that option to consume the author's work. If you'd like a little more dynamic approach to sharing the same story, you can go to the original podcast on which the book is based on, I mean, it'll have, you know, music and left sound effects, and it'll have dramatic pauses. You know, if it's a harder podcast, it'll have, you know, a great background or a sound design. And it's really up to you, maybe you, you probably want to, you know, listen to that maybe just before you go to bed, turn off the lights and you know, listen to what I say interesting, you know, a lot of audiobooks, not a lot, I guess a few audiobooks nowadays are also trying to put in these, you know, sound effects, or variations are sort of add more essentially to the audiobook than the book, in order to make it interactive, in a sense, or more engaging. I mean, the example I can think of was Malcolm Gladwell, his last book, where I think they added a lot of like, original music pieces. And they did a lot of things, which I think is blurring the line further and further. And

38:13

I mean, I guess this is a criticism, but like, I also sometimes, you know, there is this criticism of you not sometimes audiobooks sounding a little too dry. Yeah. Because like you said, right, it is a literal reading of the book. And the book has originally been written for someone to read it visually, rather than listen to it sure that it can, depending on the book on the subject, on the way that it has been written, some books can be really difficult to get through as audiobooks. Yeah, you're right. I think audio audiobooks are not for everyone.

38:50

There's you I mean, an audiobook apps have a sleep timer attached to them. So yes. So it's as simple as this. If someone's going to talk, non stop for the next 2030 minutes, you are likely to tune out.

39:08

I think the decision to

39:12

add a bit of music to the audio, or just you know, musical cues to the narration is a good thing to make it a bit more immersive. I remember the Malcolm Gladwell book you're referring to in fact, I never thought it was an audio book, I thought it was it was produced with the production design of a podcast, but it's got it's got an ISBN and it's selling as a book, which I think is terrific, which means you really have the but had the budget for that sort of podcast and creation. And I mean that that budget is a lot because it's expensive if you're actually going to you know, yeah, record bytes from people mix it. I mean, there are multiple people working on that. It's, you know, I mean, the book itself would probably be a different animal.

39:57

But the podcast is like a different piece because it's

40:00

Got those recordings, it's got sound design, and it's more dynamic. And I think if a publisher can afford those budgets, and you know, do it, they should.

40:10

I think, in India, publishers are probably waiting for the market to mature a little bit more before they make those investments. Because I think if you look at the proportion of sales that are coming from the sale of audiobooks, it's still pretty small.

40:28

Because then then India, print sales continue to be booming, and the print book edition is the most dominant edition of the book, when ebooks came into the Indian market that, you know, we thought, Oh, my God, you know, who's going to buy a print book anymore. But

40:42

and this is an observation made a crowd made by almost every publisher in the country, that the proportion of ebook sales to the total royalties, is has not changed a lot in the last 10 years.

40:57

And we're equally flummoxed. And, you know,

41:02

pleasantly surprised that the print book is still the preferred mode of, you know, consuming a book. So, I'm saying that I don't think audio may is going to really change that a lot. Unless, of course, those investments are made. So it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation where I think if I need to increase audiobook sales, I have to offer a bit more of that dynamism or immersiveness, to the audio, so that someone might say, hey, look, you know what, I've just heard this sample on Audible. And, you know, I think I'd prefer to listen to the audio version into reading the print edition, because whatever it is, and I think mobility has a lot to do with it. Let's say you don't find that time to really curl up and read a physical book, but maybe you are on the road, you can probably just, you know, plug in and but put in on your car speaker and listen to it. So the way I approach it is that say, for example, Jay Shetty, you know, think like a monk, you know, a rock star podcaster a very good narrator. And he's narrated, you know, his own book, Think like a monk. And you know, so his next book is really tools of love.

42:10

Similarly, Barack Obama's memoir, would you want to buy a really fat hardback edition? Or would you want Mr. Obama to generate the audio for you? I chose the latter. I think those are the ways you draw in. Yeah, more listeners to your format. And I think it's definitely a direction we're thinking a lot about in at the moment. And even in the year ahead.

42:38

I think I think you'll see some interesting experiments in audio, where it will be a convergence of music,

42:47

sound design, interesting choice of narrators, you'll probably have multiple narrators for some books, because, you know, we'll probably see, okay, fine. You know, what, there's, it's, I mean, if this book is very dialogue heavy, I don't want the same narrator to do you know, multiple voices. And, you know, I mean, let's face it, not everyone is Stephen Fry, who could do it and Harry Potter. So you see, a lot of interesting moves happen here. And I think that will convergence that you spoke about, you know, podcasts and, you know, audio, I think we will all borrow and, you know, shake hands in different formats to say, hey, you know, you give me that I'll give you this, you know, you can take this from me. And, you know, so I think publishing as a as a business self will interact a lot more with different kinds of companies, you know, we'll interact mobi more with an audible with a Spotify with bound.

43:38

You know, and I think it'll be vice versa. So interesting times ahead. Yeah, I think that's a very exciting space that all of these companies are getting into where they're, you know, sort of getting closer together. You know, these different industries, per se, are getting closer together with these formats becoming so fluid. And I think even author's approach to getting published is changing very massively because of that. I remember there's this, there's this Pakistani podcast called Notes on a Scandal. And I remember, when only one or two episodes of the podcast we're out again, it's like true story, true crime. You know, the thing everyone loves right now in audio in on screen, you know, and they had only released a couple of episodes on the podcast. And I remember having a conversation with them, where basically, there were two journalists who are writing a book based on that particular story. And what they had done is they were, the book was in progress, and they had started this podcast as a way to get publishers attention in order for the book to get picked up.

44:45

The podcast was ongoing, and they were, you know, simultaneously writing the book because it was the same research. So what they were doing was like, obviously, they would do the research. So the research they would do themselves, they would turn into narration for the podcast, and then when they would actually go and say

45:00

Interview people for the book, right, they would record those recorded selves. And again, so that would become the podcast. So it was the same research process, which was leading to two clear outputs, both simultaneously happening. And then the book did get picked up by Rupa, I think a few months ago, it also just very interesting approach from authors and researchers themselves in terms of how they want to now approach multiple formats, right, which is, okay, write everything in one format, and then adapt the entire thing. But in the process itself, looking at multiple format, yeah, I think credit to the authors for having that foresight.

45:35

That, you know, you're gonna use these recordings. So I mean, they obviously would have carried the right kind of equipment to record those because it needs to be. Yeah. Ready for quality quality for fun podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Like rumors, right. Right. Now we're talking, we're in talks with HarperCollins to make room was Chandra Madison's podcast into a book. Right? And that conversation is going on. And that has also been very interesting, because she was originally a book writer, right? Like, she wrote books. And so when I was working on this podcast with her, and we were working on the scripts, we had to actually cut out a lot of information from season one scripts, in order to make the episodes crisp for audio. That's the kind of information that would be there in a book. Yeah, you know, like a lot of research, a lot of details, a lot of factual information, which we cut, cut, cut, and every conversation I would have with a would be cut this out, cut this out, cut this out, because there will be a lot to make those, like longer research sort of things into 30 minute episodes. And so now, it's a funny because now it's like when the process of turning this back into a book would essentially be going to that first draft of the script and being like, Okay, now this is the book level information. And then maybe we just need to add a little bit more to that. Sure. Sure. I think that journey of adapting and what gets left, and what gets removed in different formats to like, fit that particular format of audio versus book was? Yeah. It's just very interesting when it's interesting. Yeah. And I think I think the end consumer is going to be very smart about this. Because I mean, you know, technically they are listening to the podcast for free. Unless, of course, they would be honest here subscription to, you know, Spotify, or, you know, I mean, you don't even need a subscription or a premium subscription to Spotify to listen to a podcast, or, you know, a Prime music. But

47:30

I think one needs to give us a bit of a value add when taking that same script to a different format. So if it's a podcast, that we convert it to a book, you need to give something extra. And that extra nurses need to be extra words or extra text, but an extra value add, I think there's a lot to learn from, say the, I mean, Hollywood, for example, or the movie industry in the West, which

47:56

which introduced this concept of

47:59

Director's Cut,

48:02

or,

48:05

or a DVD edition, which has a track budget, which has the director's commentary attached to it. There would be behind the scenes, and you know, bloopers, you know, stuff like that, which, which is, which is really fanservice. I mean, you want that sort of, you've probably seen the movie in a cinema hall, but you still want to want to own a copy of the DVD. On that extra stuff. Yeah. You want to

48:29

think that that would give that edge so that the DVD sort of keeps on selling? I think, I think in India, you probably seen that in movies. I think back in the first decade of the new millennium. I remember, Kahuna piano had launched.

48:45

And it was it was a massive hit. It was a blockbuster in the first three weeks, four weeks. And I think in the fifth week, I saw a poster in that, you know, page in the newspaper where all the movie listings would appear. And it said now with a bonus track, and it was called, it was a song called journeyman, journeyman, which, which was not part of the first cut that people saw in the cinema halls. And people were like, Okay, there's an it's an it was, it was a chartbuster in sort of an album. So people were like, oh, there's a song we didn't know about. Let's go watch it again.

49:21

I mean, I don't know if everyone sort of went for it. But, but those are the tricks and tips people use to sort of say, okay, you know, I've sort of maxed out what this film could do. What can I offer something extra? Is there an extra footage or plus thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So even for so let's say when when publishers we we publish books. We, let's say the first edition has come out in hardback. In the second edition, we say with a new foreword, or you know, with a new introduction by

49:53

or you know, it's got a little bit of bonus material like and it'll probably have a q&a with the author. So we have a translation

50:00

imprint called Harper Perennial. And I think we've traditionally had a q&a with the translator towards the end of the book.

50:09

It just helps you sort of deep dive into, you know, the translations approach to, you know, translating, what was your initial impressions. So, we felt like That was a good value add, you know, so it was like a trademark of a lot of the Harper Perennial books that we brought up the interchangeability when content will be there, but I think one needs to be also mindful of offering something that's a bit extra, I think the seller the number of copies selling would be limited if you just transposing or, you know, transcribing and, you know, yeah, putting it into a book. So what is your opinion about, you know, because we were speaking about adaptations, but in the same language, right, so it's an English book, you adapted an audio, it's an adapted into an English audio book. But you know, there are a lot of these new

50:57

companies or platforms coming up really focusing on like, again, Indian language, content, right, whether it's especially audio content. Yeah, I think obviously, Indian languages, books have existed forever, you know, in all the different languages. And there's a huge sort of rich literature that India has, that people who only read in English often don't get access to, unless they actively read translations. Yeah. But a lot of these platforms like you know, you have your pocket FM, Coco FM, which are focusing on like, their audiences are also very focused on, you know, smaller towns or cities and villages. And then they are also like, taking a lot of

51:37

regional local books and turning them into audio. Yeah. Is that something also that

51:46

Harper is exploring in the sense of looking at audio adaptations, but also across languages? Yes, we are, we are working with both actually. And we are open to language adaptations in all formats. So I think I think the entry of both the platforms that you named has, what it has done is that it's now given us given our audiobooks reach into parts of India, where probably the incumbent platforms were finding difficult to reach, probably because of their pricing, or, you know, the format in which you consume books. So I know pocket, for example, has

52:24

sachet pricing, you know, you pay for chapter you it's a micro payments driven sort of a listening experience. So you, you pay, let's say you like the chapter, you've paid like 10 bucks for another chapter. And you know, you proceeding from there, you can of course, by the by the entire book, it gives you the option to do that. But I think

52:45

sachet pricing allows people in parts of the country who cannot afford to pay for the full book to still experience a book and you know, pay as you consume and sample it right to see if they feel like they want to pay the full amount, whether the, you know, whether they find the book interesting enough to then invest that much money invest that much money and time. Correct. And I think the fact that both these platforms have got multiple rounds of funding is an indication that there is confidence that the listenership is growing it's it's it's also

53:25

a different kind of listenership, you know, you you do not purely singularly targeting, you know,

53:31

just the metros or the cities.

53:34

I mean, I traveled for example, a lot by you know, the Delhi Metro, and it is not uncommon to find someone listening to one of these apps, or you know, or listening to, or consuming the content via, say, YouTube, you know, where some form of adaptation of the app is, is there as a sampler.

53:54

So, the fact that a book can travel into multiple languages, and these platforms are enabling that is great for the publishing industry as a whole and also for authors, because earlier, distribution used to be a challenge. Let's say I have licensed the Marathi writes a book to a Marathi publisher.

54:17

Let's say the lockdown is hit, and a Marathi publisher would typically depend on sales coming from Amazon bookshop sets to sell and stock, Marathi books, and a lot of independent book fairs that would happen across Maharashtra where, you know, books would be sold at a slight discount.

54:38

We did notice just that during COVID None of these fairs would happen because you know, yeah, COVID restrictions with restrictions and other things and you know, no funding, the business is in the doldrums. So, I think the fact that you do not need a distribution and ongoing distribution method

55:00

NISM via these apps ensures that at least even at home, wherever the listener is, he's still getting a chance to consume that content.

55:09

And I think one of the reasons why we, for example, began investing in our own audio and looking at audio with a lot more seriousness was because

55:18

video lesson, ebooks and audio are still formats where you do not need on ground, you know, distribution, or you don't need the markets to be open, or you need to need bookshops to be opens, so on and so forth. You it's just all in the clouds in the servers. And, and it's what we began to call no contact consumption, you know, you can just

55:42

ask Alexa to play it or, and I think this, we noticed this, also, because when the first lockdown hit, obviously, as an industry, we, we were anxious. I mean, we had a number of books that were scheduled for publication, and we could we had to say, you know, we just need to pause this for a bit because, you know, we can't do a proper marketing, you know, we can't do you know, distribution, how are the books even going to reach the bookstores or the you know, warehouses? Yeah. So I don't know, if you remember, I think some of us publishers, I think at that point of time, we began to allow the ebook editions to sort of, you know, sell a bit more, so we never ever had, it was highly discounting on the ebook editions, and ebook sales really, you know, went through the roof around that time. But interestingly,

56:34

because the US and the EU UK markets, because their business is not not so dependent on the sale of the print edition, whatever shortfall, the lockdown imposed, they made up for it with the sales of the ebook and audio editions.

56:52

Because that portion is anyways higher there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know, let's say

56:59

25% of our books. revenues come from the sale of the book edition, and no 25% came from the ebook edition. Oh, sorry, audio and ebook editions 20. That forever percentage. I think that ratio in the US and UK probably went up to say, you know, 50 to 60%.

57:17

Because, you know, I mean, books were considered non essential items, and you know, you can ship those. But you know, no one's stopping you from really buying downloading an audiobook, right? No one's stopping you from learning the book. So I think they realized how valuable that whole inventory in the catalog was that all that money that was invested in, you know, creating audiobooks, and making sure the books were available. In fact, I remember a lot of language publishers in India, who

57:43

probably never had an ebook production plan, because, you know, they had follow the traditional route of publishing in a print book, caveat.

57:53

But they began to look at ebooks a lot more seriously. They said, Okay, you know, what, had our ebooks been there, people may have been able to download these ebooks and you know, sell it for those months when it was pretty tough. Yeah, I think the the format agnostic approach is very crucial for the future of publishing that, you know, people are going to consume it the way they want, you know, I have a Kindle, I don't have space in my house to buy any more physical books. So I'm just gonna stick to my Kindle.

58:21

And, you know, maybe, you know, if I've got a good narrator, who might like, who's narrating the audio, I'll probably stick to the, you know, audio edition. But I think not a lot of publishers are still investing in audio production. We are very selective. We're not doing yellow books in audio. But the books are you converting to audio, say in a year, in a year would be tough, but I think at least half our catalog or our annual list would put go into audio? It all depends also on the genre. And the ambition behind the book in terms of you know, what are the kinds of sales we're expecting?

59:00

Because not all journals do well. Fiction, I'm surprised it does not do very well as an audio book, per se. I mean, if I do a podcast with multiple voices, and you know, like, how is the audible approaches originals?

59:15

That could be a different beast. Yeah, I think fiction is challenging because like you said, it needs multiple people to kind of like have those multiple voices for people to recognize that characters I think it goes back to the radio drama, you know, like BBC used to have a lot of these radio dramas approach. Then, also, one thing I've realized with audio, like fiction or audio

59:42

narratives is that usually in books, there are a lot of characters, right? Because an author is writing a book and in a book, you can have multiple characters, obviously, and that's sort of how the building in the book happens button audio, like when someone is writing fiction for audio it is very important to limit the number of characters

1:00:00

because every additional character is such a huge addition to the production cost, yeah, creating that audio thing that usually they would have like only two characters, only three character. Yeah, no. And I think that also makes it a little difficult to adapt.

1:00:17

Fiction for audio. Definitely. I hope you enjoy this episode of The Book people. But there's more to come. So my conversation with alcohol was so amazing that this episode is actually going to have a part two. So we're going to be releasing a part two next week where I continue speaking to alcohol. And he actually talks about, you know, how much revenue HarperCollins is actually making with audiobooks. And he also addresses this new trend that is happening in India right now, where authors are trying to retain their audio rights instead of signing them off to the publishers. And so he's able to provide a publisher's perspective on that. So for all of these topics, and much more, make sure to tune in next week for part two of this conversation with alcohol.

1:01:06

This podcast is created by Bauer. We work with writers and brands to create content across formats, whether it's books, podcasts, newsletters or screenplays, so get in touch to see how we can help you grow through stories and follow us at bound and they are on all social media platforms. I'm your host Ashley as

1:01:27

in follow me on LinkedIn, where I share many, many more insights about books and content. Or you can get in touch with me at Ushuaia at bound on the.com If you have any suggestions on topics I should cover, or if you want to book any of my services or consultation calls. Until then, keep writing