30. Why Publishers Want To Retain Audio Rights, With Arcopol Chaudhuri

Aishwarya speaks with Arcopol Chaudhuri, Executive Editor - Rights & New Media at HarperCollins India about the process of adapting books into audiobooks and why publishers want to retain audio rights. How much does HarperCollins earn from audiobooks? How does the author benefit if they retain audio rights, according to Arcopol? What do authors earn from film adaptation rights as compared to the book itself?

Watch Part 1 here: https://youtu.be/i1xn7-RDz4c

Arcopol Chaudhuri is a publishing professional, an avid reader, and an audiobook buff. At HarperCollins, India's fastest growing and the world's largest education-to-entertainment publisher, he is a part of the rights & licensing team that generates revenue via sales of Indian and foreign language rights, film & audio rights, across territories and formats. His area of specialization is audio & film rights licensing. He also steers audiobook publishing for their growing audiobooks catalog under Harper Audio. In over a decade in book publishing, he has previously commissioned books, edited them, worked closely with publicity teams on marketing campaigns, and created newsletters.

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Aishwarya Javalgekar is a writer, book editor and podcast producer. As the Head of Originals she specializes in creating stellar content across formats - books, podcasts, newsletters, etc. She is a member of WICCI - Print Media and previous experience in  Zubaan Books and Simon and Schuster Canada.
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Produced by Aishwarya Jawalgekar
Edit by Kshitij Jadhav

Transcript

00:01

And I think the significance of a book, you know, hands a physical book in our hands, still is a statement of sorts. And it's been very funny. A lot of authors who are from Bombay, they choose to preserve the rights because they know someone who's an ad at some production house.

Aishwarya  00:17

Yeah, they're like, Oh, I'll throw my personal contact, I'll get some

00:20

Yeah, the privilege of actually being able to represent an author's work, and try and find new life to it, you know. Bound.

Aishwarya  00:41

Welcome to another episode of the book people, where I demystify India's media and publishing industries, and uncover the latest developments and the biggest opportunities for writers and creative professionals in India today. I'm your host, Ashley as our so I'm a writer, book editor, Podcast Producer, overall media professional, and the head of originals and bound. Last week, I was speaking to a couple Chaudhary who is the executive editor of rights and new media, I'd have forgotten. And we were talking about how publishers are investing more into audio, creating audio books, and into pitching books for screen. And what is the big opportunity that publishers are also seeing in this new sort of fluidity that is emerging between the different industries. This was one of the most honest conversations I've ever had on the book people. And it was really amazing. So I Coppola talks about, you know, what kind of revenue HarperCollins is making from print books versus audio books. And he addresses a very important phenomenon that is happening in the industry right now, where a lot of authors are choosing to keep their audio rights with themselves and keep their screen rights with themselves, instead of signing them off to the publishers, which means that the authors would rather take the book once it's published by themselves and pitch to audio platforms, and to production houses, in order for their books to be adapted into different formats. So I Copal addresses, you know, what this trend means for publishers, and he provides really a publisher's perspective on why he thinks that publishers should be able to keep these rights and help authors ultimately get their books out on different platforms. And he also shares some really memorable moments with his own career in publishing and his journey from journalism to editorial. So let's do what is currently HarperCollins. Revenue portion, you know, as in how much revenue was HarperCollins getting from print versus audio versus ebooks? Um,

02:52

I, I'm actually I haven't actually checked, what's the latest sort of numbers on that, but safe to say, it comes from print. And I think ebook and audio would be, you know, very less. Not because, you know, we haven't promoted ebooks or audiobooks in a way. But it's, it just so happens that the distribution mechanism or visibility, a bookstore, or people's preferred mode of purchasing a book is still very much to Nielsen brings out a book scan data. But India is one of the few markets in the world where, you know, print book sales have been pretty robust. I believe the number could be anywhere between 12 to 16. I don't recall it immediately. That's the rate of growth. We're sort of seeing in print sales, whereas in the US, or the UK, it's a pretty saturated market, you know, so you know, it's the largest single digits over there. And I would, I wouldn't say it would be upwards of 5%. But it's very important to recognize that in India, as literacy rates improve. More and more people every year, are also being introduced to books. They are probably picking up the classics first, say the Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. In India, a lot of book consumption at the moment is on books that improve their lives, or books that helped them figure out how to get rich. I mean, I'm perpetually surprised how much the Intelligent Investor continues to sell. And it's not the first book to you go for because it's it's called intelligent investor. And it's a fat book. It's a it's about 400 odd pages. But people are constantly trying to improve their lives and get better at what they do. And you know, upskill in some ways or the other. I remember word power Made Easy. At one time was the highest selling book in the country. And that kind of indicated how much in India you want to get In better English, you know, English was your wildcard entry into, you know, the good life. Yeah, it was it was, but it's, it's still the reality of still is,

Aishwarya  05:12

you know, it's very interesting lot of there are a lot of podcasts as well, like you're in your top five, they'll always be a podcast, which is just purely teaching English, right? Like your basic learn English words are like, every episode is like a new English word, and then explaining the Word and usage. So I think, you know, people are still very heavily sort of focused on learning English. And I think even for your exams, right, like your SATs, your cats, you need that, like one of the preps, like preparation people do is to brush up on English to brush up on vocabulary. And it's something that again, huge audience,

05:51

and I think in India, people are finding novel ways to teach English. So you've probably seen God of motive grooms on Instagram, you don't know probably, that the clip is meant to be a lesson in a certain English word. In India, we have so far evaded a recession is because it's still an aspirational lifestyle, you know, people are working hard to constantly improve their lights, and, you know, consume, make themselves better, you know, look for the next big opportunity, you know, look for another job or, you know, change or whatever. I think that is reflecting in the kinds of books that are also being purchased for us like the almanac of novel replicant. Big, big, big seller, I mean, it's not a book that sort of very directly telling you what's it's about? I mean, it's not saying it's not saying how to get rich, or you know, it's it's a title, which is unusual, it's complicated, you don't know what it's about. It's not a colorful looking book. It's not, it's a white book littered with, with difficult words in

Aishwarya  06:53

it on Audible all the time. Every time I open audible, it shows up in my

06:57

Yeah, yeah. And, and it features a person who's probably, you know, not in your face on in Stein, like, you know, he's, he's not really showing up on Instagram all the time. But, you know, it's a it's a study, you know, Blockbuster with which has worked on its own merit. The Subtle Art of not giving a fuck by Mark Manson, Mark has not visited sort of India, and, you know, ever since sort of the book has been selling, but it's such a huge sensation in terms of, you know, it's not only the book that you one needs to read, it's also a book that one needs to be seen with, you know, you you kind of making a statement holding that book in your hands, as I sort of served multiple purposes. You can't do that with an audiobook or a Kindle book, right? You can't show it off that way. And I think the significance of a book in our hands, a physical book, in our hands, still is a statement of sorts. In a country where

Aishwarya  07:59

tension of your identity, right, like me reading a particular book says something about my beliefs or where I stand asserting that space, I think publicly, correct, correct. Like, if you see someone reading a book on the metro, in the train, you're like,

08:17

I was just gonna, I was just gonna mention that it's a conversation startup, you if I see you holding a book in your hands, you know, someone might just as an app, in an act of kindness might ask, how's the book you're reading, you know, but if you're plugged in, and you know, if you listen to an audio book, what you're doing, you probably listen to music or listen to podcasts. I don't know, if you if you're holding a Kindle in your hands. I think a lot of people in the country still don't know what the Kindle is,

Aishwarya  08:41

is it just looks like a tablet or it looks like a tablet. electronic device.

08:45

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's very private and personal. But the book is sort of, you know, usually sort of making a statement. It's, it opens conversations. I, for example, I never travel without a book in my hand. So even if I'm have a doctor's appointment, I'll have at least a book in my bag. So that you know, while I'm waiting a meeting, and I think it the number of people you see nowadays, carrying a book or you know, reading on public transport is not as much as it used to be. I travel by the metro and most people are watching an OTT platform or a show, you know, with their earphones on. And I'm often ASCII. Do people read nowadays? I mean, I barely know anyone who reads anymore, but I hear them but I'm saying that the data that we are getting from Nielsen and our own data suggests otherwise. The print sales are pretty robust. I think it will take some doing before ebook and audio from a more aggressive part of that whole share of, of revenue must credit the very good ecosystem of booksellers, Curator curated booksellers You know, independent stores, retail chains, who have made that effort to ensure that you know, books are available and accessible to you. And, you know, a one on one example I want to quote as Barry sons, which is a very well regarded, you know, bookstore chain, primarily originating from Delhi at a time, I mean, I remember in Bombay, for example, you know, after strength shut down, and I think a number of other bookstores in smaller bookstores is shut down, and we thought, Oh, my God, what's happening in the future of the independent bookshop. But I think in Delhi, for example, the they've seen a different trends. So, Bobby Sands, for example, has launched more outlets post pandemic. Yeah. And it is such a great vote of confidence to say that, you know, here's someone who's, you know, cares about books and is passionate about investing more in making sure the books get available, and, and it's a very well curated sort of a selection. So they will, this will launch a store in Kolkata in Park Street, and Park Street already has its own share of bookshops. But I have spoken to people in Calcutta, and they say that the the curation that they've brought is a lot more nuanced than what Calcutta needed for a long time. So it needs that insight. And you know, thinking before you expand, I think, and so any credit to the whole ecosystem for allowing books to continue to flourish?

Aishwarya  11:26

Yeah, even champaca. I find very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Also opened a branch and go Ah, yeah, yeah, first store was in Bangalore. And during the pandemic, obviously, they launched their subscription. Yes. Yeah. Which again, very interesting, right? Because they're still like selling print books. Correct. But by creating that subscription box, and you know, like showing off the curation, right off that subscription box, right, again, I think, very interesting model for readers to be very engaged and sort of having that trust in champaca, in a way to curate and give them books that they would like, yeah, because it's taking a little bit of that selection power away from the reader. Right? Yeah, I think very interesting things happening.

12:13

Even in Delhi, for example, consume, they've launched a chain of stores, and they're expanding. So they have a policy of, you know, if you buy a book, two coffees on us, it's a very simple proposition. And you know, you can just sit, relax and have a cup of coffee before you exit the store. It's a pretty neat bottle.

Aishwarya  12:32

Yeah. Also a lot of experts suggesting that authors retain audio rights, right, I think make nap, and was one of the first people to start talking about this. Where, you know, she also suggested that if authors retain audio rights, or retain screen rights, then and then sort of approach these audiobook platforms or approach producers themselves, in a sense, like, try to make more money or, you know, keep the revenue that they would get from those audiobook sales or the screen sales to themselves. Is that something that you're seeing very actively happen with? Authors that HarperCollins are signing up? Like, are you seeing this trend of authors wanting to retain audio rights? And

13:15

it's a conversation that we're hearing a lot more of? I think, theoretically, this is the way I think it should work. If you've already got a screen deal, on the stories merit, before you're approaching a publisher, by all means, you know, continue with the screen deal. Or you've got strong active interest from a producer who's, you know, going to offer money for your story. And the producer doesn't care that it's just a story. It's not a published book. I think that's fair. I think I think once a book is submitted to publish on the publishers publisher quest to publish it, I think this the screen repetition becomes a derivative of the book itself. And I think on by that logic, I think the publisher should have a tiny percentage of the revenue that is being made from the screen. And the percentages sort of vary from publisher to publisher, we have a very fixed sort of, you know, it's like an agent, fee, that sort of thing. We were not something we are entitled to it. It's something we earn, because we investing in the printing of the book, we invest in the editing of the book, financing the distribution, and other things, we are giving that manuscript a certain legitimacy and giving it a shelf life. And by virtue of the fact that a publisher has published a book on merit, VR, sort of giving the producer a vote of confidence, right. Or the book is getting a sort of a vote of confidence. Yeah. Yeah. And the publisher and the producer was okay. If HarperCollins thinks that you know, this is a book that Active, published, acquired and printed. So some thinking must have gone into it to say that this book will have a readership. And if this book will have readership is what Harper is thinking, then I think, at least I'm 20% convinced right now that this story might have a viewership. So the assurance of readership is giving way to the assurance of viewership. And I think that is the publishers handbook that's sort of bringing that to fruition. And I think that's why I think the publisher is probably right in sort of saying, hey, you know, we'd, we'd like to retain the screen writes. And in any case, at least, the process that we follow at Harper is that Vinod, restricting the author from pitching the book and having the conversations with the producer, the saying, let's, let's both of us do it. And if a deal comes through, great, but we'll, we'll keep communicating and see what's the best we can do. So an author, looking for it on an individual capacity versus an author looking for it. And the publisher looking for it and publisher using its own network and contacts. I think it's, you're getting the best of both worlds. And you can do it with a publisher that has a proper outreach, you know, to full screen reps, for example. I mean, we have a we have a proper outreach for screen rights, we have a dedicated person for it. So if you're an author who's probably thinking, Should I grant the screen rights, and you know, to a publisher, these are the questions you should be asking, like, you know, are you going to do a proper outreach with it? You know, what happens if you bring a deal, and I don't like it. And what if happens if I bring a deal, and you know, and I think those conversations can be had, at the time of, you know, the book being signed up by the publisher, I think it's important to acknowledge that it is really the author's book, and you are only helping find a producer for it. I think a publisher might feel a bit shortchanged, when, you know, the author is reserving only specifically the screen rights and giving everything else to it. Because, you know, there is, obviously that sense of, you know, oh, I could make, you know, the full money and keep it all to myself, you know, why should I share it, any of it with the publisher, but I think the publisher, and you know, at the heart of it really, you know, I mean, the publisher, I mean, the publishing house is a big organization, it's you know, it's it's owning at a different level. And not probably, parting with those or not having those rights is not going to make a huge dent in the publisher, sort of, you know, space. But I think as a relationship, the fact that a publisher is invested and, you know, shown certain faith in the book, the publisher expects that whatever derivatives emerge from the book, it will have some, you know, ratio of the deal value that sort of comes its way, it just sort of makes it feel fair, in my view, I think coming to the audio question, I think, I mean, you can think of if you want to, you know, have the whole, you can produce the audio yourself as an author, or you want to independently work with one platform, and they'll do it for you. You could have the conversation with the platform, but I think what the publisher is bringing to the table is that your book is going to be available on all platforms. And I think at the end of the day, an author would want that they would want their work to be as widely available as possible. So, sure, I mean, you have could have one platform offering them, you know, X royalties are very attractive, some and you know, let's say there are no royalties, nothing after that. But I think a publisher, by virtue of being a royalties based model is a lot more transparent in terms of what sales are coming from what platforms. And also, yeah, it's a derivative of the book. It's, it's not like, you know, it's a separate script that's been written, if it's a separate script you've written and you've written something else for the publisher, sure, you can exploit a separate script for, you know, doing a podcast of your own. But if it's the same script, and you know, a scheme script that an editor and a publishing house, it edited and fine tuned and clean that clean it up, and all the grammatical errors have been fixed. And it's looking, you know, publishable for you to take that script. And, you know, say, Hey, I'm just going to, you know, this is mine. I think that feels to me a little unfair to the effort that that's gone in. So

Aishwarya  19:24

that's, I think it's just purely it comes down to money, right? Like because essentially, you know, for authors as well, obviously, publishing a book like realistically doesn't like even with the royalty model doesn't actually give the authors a lot of money just realistically because of pricing because of, you know, what an average book sells? Yeah. And I think the discussions simply comes from the point of if an author can get their book picked up for screen, there's a lot more money that they will get from screen versus book publishing. I think that's where the now Whatever started coming from, which is ultimately where is the money coming from more than money or like the value that they feel like they are receiving for writing something is coming in or is coming more from audio than from book publishing? And so I think it is the idea of, then for them, maybe it is not a derivative trade, because then like that is something that they would then maybe want to put more effort in. I think that's where that comes from. But obviously, that's why I wanted to get your perspective, because I think it's important to also see, you know, from different perspectives, what the thought process is about, you know, whether it's audio, whether it's screen, yeah, ultimately, you know, it boils down to how the publisher and the author work together.

20:45

Yeah, exactly. And I think, let's say the author is doing a screen deal himself is not granting anything to the publisher, he's making 100 bucks. If you're granting the rights to a publisher, he's probably making 80 or 90 bucks. It's not a huge difference. It's not like the publisher is taking 50% of it. And you know, it's half it is what say, an agent would take for, you know, just making sure the deal is done, the legal, the legalities of the contract are fair. What I've noticed authors doing is that they'll probably reserve the rights for film. And then they'll go to an agent, because they'll they feel a bit more confidence with an agent, but the agent again, we'll we'll take some percentages off it anyway. So at the end of the day, he's still getting, you know, not not 100 rupees at all. He's getting his Indian 80 or 90 bucks, depending on what the commission is. And also, let's say the Auto has a lead agent. And he's also a film agent. Yeah, he's parting with the Commission for you know, both. Or maybe the agents are splitting the commission, depending on what the conversation has been had. But in any case, he is not getting the full money. There are very few authors who right now have had the tenacity to just do everything on their own. They'd say, Okay, I'll resolve everything. I'll do everything. Um, I don't need an agent. Sure. By all means, if you if you want to do it, you can do it. And it's been very funny. A lot of authors who are from Bombay, they choose to reserve the rights, because they know someone who's an ad at some production house.

Aishwarya  22:19

Yeah, they're like, well, I'll throw my personal contact, I'll get some Yeah,

22:23

yeah. And I think that personal contact and sort of self harm and dicta you know, and all of those things, it's, it doesn't always sort of work. Whereas what a publisher does, or even say, what an agent does is bring in a lot more structure to the approach, the conversation is between, you know, two equals two, say, Look, you know, these, these are the, it's a conversation between two professionals, there is no personal favor, or all of these things coming in, so no one's trying to wing it. In the West, for example, it's an highly agented market, you need an agent to sort of, you know, really even get a publishing deal. It's very tough. And even for a film deal, you have a an agent who will have some alpha specialist film person within the agency, who sort of just looks at that. I mean, if you call my agent, you'll sort of see that there are multi multiple kinds of convolution that keep on happening. But yes, I think different perspectives are there to the conversation, like give an example, this book called 90 days by Anurag Mitra, it's on the Rajiv Gandhi assassination. When When, when, when the book was brought to us, the author said that look, I already have a screen deal. It's it's a film is getting made. I'm only granting you the, you know, the publishing rights, you can bring out the audiobook and all of that, when the screen deal is done. And, you know, Now the show is, is now in production, it's, it's going to come out soon. So that sort of makes sense. So theoretically, this is what I feel. But it's important that at the end of the day publishing is a book about publishing books. So even if at times we sort of let the author keep those rights, we do it because we realize, okay, the primary bread and butter for publishers is still the printing and selling of books.

Aishwarya  23:58

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26:38

It's difficult to pick a worst experience and industry with terrible experiences is one where to be difficult to

Aishwarya  26:44

best experience and funniest experience, let's do that.

26:50

A lot of funny experiences. But I'll probably have to think about them. It's the privilege, I think is the best experience of it the privilege of actually being able to represent an author's work and try and find new life to it. You know, and I think that really is the privilege of it. I think there's there are people all around who really envy this job. They would kill to be in a publish working in a publishing house, you know, when our a new office in good gown. And we sort of you know, launched it, or we sort of moved into the new office, it's, it's a very pretty and attractive office. And you know, a lot of people were posting photos that has the office bookshelves, it has the office, it's and I think, to walk into that office, or work and come out in the evening after doing a good day's work, I think is is the best part of the job. And I mean it sincerely. And I think our office only used to be NIDA, and it was a building just all to ourselves. And there's a distinct smell of books, when you enter the office. I think if I could bottle that smell, I could, and I'm sure you would have heard from tons of tons of readers. And I remember that smell for the first time when I entered publishing. And it was the day when I went to the Prakash books warehouse in their garage, which is an Old Delhi. And it's a warehouse. So it's full of books, and it's in the basement. Which means you know, there's very little air circulating families. Yeah. And I remember, I heard horrible things about, you know, being in Delhi, I used to live in Bombay. In the early part of my career, I think a few movies sort of began to change my view, but deleting one movie was called CyberGhost The other was band Baaja Baraat. And I thought you know, these people are fun, you know, it's not it's not as bad as they made it out to be. I think I still remember that smell when I walked into that Prakash books warehouse and I really prayed that I hope I cracked this interview. And, and, and, and they were very kind to me and you know, I think from there on, it's just been just just such an honor to just be working with sort of books. There are there are challenges too. It's not like every day is you know, all hunky dory. I think what no one prepares you is the pressure. It is it's a high pressure job. It's got better work life balance than what I had in say journalism or what say, say the ad industry has or you know, I think people overall are gentle and decent human beings. There is no a certain like a toxic work culture in my 12 years and I'm just speaking of HarperCollins. And you know, even Prakash, it's never been like a toxic work atmosphere. It's never been. Because think about it. I mean, these are people who are readers of books, and readers of books generally aren't bad people they are. They're good people, they, they're more human, they are they have empathy, they have compassion. And And if people like that are in an organization, I would expect that at least your co workers are decent, kind human beings. Of course, there are pressures, you know, there are arguments that are debates, there are good days or bad days, I think the pressure is not something you you're prepared for, because at the heart of it, almost all of Indian publishing is hugely understaffed. Yeah. So if you, I mean, so you work with authors, and you would have heard that how anxious they get when, you know, the response from editors takes time. And yeah, I am having worked in publishing, I know that. I mean, editors are not sort of goofing around in the office, they are really sort of hustling and there are in the midst of immersive edits, meetings, a lot of editors take work home, and probably had it not been for the joy of of the work, they wouldn't have done though, that it's sitting at home. I mean, and really, for me, may have been a main part of the job is reading, you know, you have to know your product, what you're selling, you know, what, when you identifying what to pitch and sell, and push, you have to know the product. So it requires you to read, it requires you to interact with, you know, authors, human beings. So, those are things which I think a lot of people who come into publishing, they are a bit surprised by, I have a very dear friend who, with whom I often joke that, you know, we still dream, or we used to think before joining publishing that will come to the office, it will be a clean, empty desk, there will be a stack of printouts, which, on which you will just have to just look at it and just mark you know, just change a comma here.

Aishwarya  32:07

Yeah, idea of publishing. Yeah, even the show, you know, younger. Yeah. Which is again, based on the publishing industry, even that, right, even though they're having a lot of conversations, it's so glamorous, they're talking to people, they're partying, yeah, yeah, no, it's like,

32:21

yeah, so no, no television show set in any industry will, will really show a lot of them working. I mean, there's a show called the office, which has been doing nothing about traveling and just, you know, yapping around. And I mean, this is a show and nobody is allowed to work because of the boss. If you see a show called madmen, you will, you will imagine, they're always drinking, because they're moving from one cave into the other, it starts with a drink, and it starts with a cigarette, or they're probably going for a long walk, you know, whiny lunch, you know, in Manhattan. So even in publishing, for example, I think a lot of people see book launches, and you know, they will see a very fancy book launch with a lot of attendees, they probably feel that the glamour of it, is how it really is entertained. But it's not it's really immersive, deep work, it is a lot of negotiation, it's a lot of hand holding, and authors, you you're really taking responsibility for you know, for the baby, sort of, you know, so it is like a daycare of manuscripts where you know, you're, every day you sort of, you know, nurturing it and taking it all the way to publication, and even beyond publication and ensuring that it's sort of well looked after. I think those are the sort of, you know, the pluses and the pressures of the job. But it's kind of tough to trade it with anything else. Well, I think most people, you will see who worked in publishing, they will they work for very long periods of time, because, you know, you you enjoy it so much and you feel like, you know, it's, there's a certain nobility to it.

Aishwarya  34:01

No, I completely agree because I think so I, the way I knew that I wanted to work in the publishing industry is I did an internship with Zubaan in Delhi. So I was staying in Delhi for a few months, I had done the internship, after that, I was short till then I was like, you know, I need to know the reality before, I think of whether I want to work in this industry. And then I went abroad, I did a publishing course at Humber. There, I interned at Simon and Schuster, Canada, and then I came back. So again, like, when I came back, I obviously, you know, wanted to work in publishing, that was the thing that I wanted to do. And that's how I first got introduced to bound and I started working at bound as an editorial assistant and sort of evolved from there. So I was working as a book editor and then like, evolved from there to looking at multiple formats now as a whole and beyond books as well. Right. But I agree with you it's very interesting because you know, again, I love the office, etc. One point, again, like very pretty, all the books, huge bookshelf, love working with books, and you get to borrow all the books, which is amazing because we just read books for free. But this is something I noticed as well where, you know, I realized that in publishing or in, you know, the adjacent sort of industries, companies, our roles are very broad. So, which is why I always like asking this question of, you know, what does a day in your life look like? Because no one has an answer to give me for this question. Because nobody looks the same, right? Like, you can't have this thing of, you know, you're doing one job, or like, you have one role. And so your role is coming to work every day and doing this one particular thing. Everyone will be like, I do this, and I do this. And I do that. And I think that is also something that is very, you know, related to publishing, where your roles are so broad, and you're doing essentially like three, four things within one role, which comes from again, you know, there it being understaffed, but also, that just being the nature of sort of the kind of roles that exist, that which I find very interesting. And this is, again, that something that I you know, want book lovers, or book readers who want to work in publishing to know, because I often come across so many people who love books, but because of that, you know, bound gets that a lot where, you know, we get people who want to work with books, but they want to have fun. You know, like you want to work with a thing that you know, okay, we come you come to work, and you just read and you have fun with it, right? Like it's very chilled, but it is very high pressure. And it is very, you know, you got to do a lot of things, you got to get things done. And reading is happening, but it's reading and learning. And then there's a lot of reading that's happening, not during your working hours, but just reading what you're doing for yourself. Yeah, I think that balance is, you know, definitely something that people should really know about.

36:54

Yeah. In fact, you made an interesting point as well. Yeah, I think, I think publishing jobs, when you see listings, I think we advertise our jobs incorrectly. Occasionally, I think one of the lines, which we we sort of, you know, for emphasize on that you should love books, and you should love reading. I think that is not a criteria for the job that is given. But I think since let's say, for an editor, if you're applying for an editorial position, or as a copy editor, you can't I mean, a large part of the job is a cleanup job, you are editing or looking at a manuscript in a very raw format. It's not the most pleasant experience when reading it under that format. But you are you have to be able to have the foresight and the maturity and the eye. And obviously the skill to to suggest what is the change that the manuscript needs to be a better version of itself?

Aishwarya  37:59

Yeah, not just find out what is wrong, but what is

38:03

correct. So that is a that's a different skill set. And it comes with, I think it comes with a with age, and a bit of diverse reading across genres. So if you are the person who just prefers to curl up and read, and that's all you've done for most of your life, I would say you probably got a good sense of what grammar, comprehension, punctuation all of that is there, but it is no guarantee that you will enjoy the process of the cleanup.

Aishwarya  38:34

Evaluate, and can you, you know, analyze a book. Yeah, from a very objective perspective, and then say that this is working, this is not working or this in a way like right or this is wrong, what this needs to be fixed in this particular manner. Yeah, I think that requires very different skill set that to evaluate right and pinpoint. Exactly. Yeah. Versus simply being like, I like this book. I don't like this book, I think the subjectivity, again, is a huge character, or someone who can work in publish,

39:06

correct. And when you are a copy editor, or just an editor who's working on a book, you won't be assigned a book based on your tastes. It you may get a book which you is far from anything that you've read, or you know, you don't probably don't even a prototype genre, but you will have to apply all the logical sensibilities that are required when you know, when the right reader for that manuscript will require, for example, most of us in our college years or whatever, you know, growing up we read fiction. You know, we didn't get in Blyton's. We did Harry Potter, a lot of things, all of that. We read so little of heavy nonfiction. It's important not that right now, the publishing industry publishes very little of fiction. The list that most big publishers do right now is largely nonfiction led and nonfiction that's you know, leaning on politics current fairs, biographies, you know, academic books, which, you know, on, you know, the state of health care, maybe, you know, and those outlets when a young editor sort of joins and that something they like, is a sign that's a bit of a culture shock. They like, what I mean, you know, I mean, that's not Yeah. Well, what I read probably, you know, maybe read in the newspapers, but, you know, it's a bit of a culture shock. So I think it's very important knowledge that you are not going to be allowed to cherry pick what you edit. Yeah, maybe you are, you have a proven track record in delivering and turning around books that aren't the romance genre. So you know, you probably may get a bit more of that, you may eventually get a bit more of history, if you've been doing a lot of history where, you know, there are footnotes, there's an index that's required, there are maps that need to be added, for example, I eventually, sort of began getting a lot more books in the genre of sport. Because, you know, when I was copywriting, I edited books on by, you know, say, shader, 3d, Sanjay Magica, you know, was hemogram, and, you know, so, so eventually, you know, you're someone who could be sort of, you know, relied upon to say, you know, why don't you sort of lead this project. But when you're starting out, at least for the first three, four years, it could be a mix of many things. So similarly, for, say, someone who's applying for a marketing role, we advertise it as someone who needs to love books, and just enjoy being with books. But marketing roles. don't require that to that extent. Because marketing means you have to work under immense pressure, and find ways to market the book, you have very little time to really read and understand the book, can you read it from cover to cover? That's the that's the reality of the industry. So you should be someone who's good at assessing, what are the points in the book tonight to highlight and bring out into the world so that people will buy more copies of the book?

Aishwarya  42:05

Yeah, like the packaging in a way, right? Like, how do I package this book in a way that people will want to pick it up? Or will find it attractive? Again, like working with books that you might not personally feel strongly about? subjects that you don't care about? But obviously, you're spending so many hours and hours of time? Yeah, just working on this book. I'm trying to convince other people that this book is very exciting, irrespective of your personal preferences as a reader in that sense.

42:39

And I think there's media relations, there is social media, there's analytics. So I think you someone who's coming into publishing, who's coming from a non VR reading background is most welcome. You know, I think, as you'll be bound is launching a course I think, I hope a lot of people who apply for the course or people who are reaching at the course. Yes, I'm looking forward to. And I think what I hope people take away is that you know, people take away this get a good sense of the industry and what it's like to work in a publishing house. But I hope people also bring their own strengths to it. So if you have you're a digital marketer with a lot of experience Yeah, sure. Great, I think you will have a lot to offer to publishing house if you are someone who's done you know, influencer marketing and who's aware of how to deal with influencers, if you know, if you know how to shoot great reels, you go in with, you know, your phone camera, and you're good at someone who's great at taking photographs. These are all great skills to have. It's it's not just you know, about the written word. And there are other departments in publishing like product, there's, you know, there's sales, there's, you know, the rights and contracts part of it, which could use more fresh energy. And I think those are things One should also want to think about and of course, you have done in the designing of books is, is very, very an integral part of the process. So yeah,

Aishwarya  44:06

you didn't give me a funny story, which I will let it go. Okay.

44:10

I remember one. It's not It's funny, and it's, it's sad. And it's ridiculous. It's all of those things. So when you publish, Scheider, freebies memoir was called Game Changer. There was another major typo in the book.

Aishwarya  44:30

No, after.

44:34

Yeah, it wasn't made a typo in the book. We came to know about it only when it made the headlines. He obviously came into the limelight because of he scored the fastest century in one day international match at a very young age. I think 16 is the age which which he, you know, that's what's on the record in public imagination on all cricketing records and I think I think I think we when we, when we mentioned his, the year of his birth in the text, any smart person would have could have done the math and realize that, you know, on the day that he played that match, he was not exactly that age, which is considered. So basically, the headline, and it was a front page headlines. So it was, it was a major crisis for us. So, so we we missed catching that when editing the book.

Aishwarya  45:30

And what was the error? Was it that his birth? Your was misprinted?

45:36

No, it wasn't misprinted it was just the incorrect, your

Aishwarya  45:41

incorrect your office birth or the incorrect your when he played the game that

45:45

the birthday was incorrect, which basically implied that he had committed age fraud when playing the match, and it became there were whole editorial pieces, you know, on the Op Ed page, Mr. hasn't even written a piece and you know, they had done deep articles on each fraud in sport. And, and at the heart of it. It was just this horrible, being, you know, being at the, you know, the, that being the face of that, because I was responsible for the book, as I said, the editor is really the heart of the book and being responsible for it. But for me to commit such a blunder was ending, I think it was one of the lowest points and of my editorial journey. But I think I mean, I must commend my team and you know, the people for not letting it, you know, affect me, if we didn't get into the blame game. And, you know, how could this have happened? You know, how could you let this happen? We went into crisis management mode, we said, you know, we just need to come in and say, hey, look, this is an error. Yeah. And you know, so even There's no age.

Aishwarya  46:51

There are typos. And then there are typos, you know, I just happen to be

46:56

Yeah, so, I think I think most editors will tell you that. No book goes to print without a single type, there is at least one typo. And if even if I casually ask a colleague of mine to say, Hey, this is your book, right? You edited this. And my colleagues first reaction is Yes, I did. Why? Why? What happened? So I'm gonna show that No, I've not found a typo. I just wanted to know if you've edited this. But typos, these are things that give people you know, sleepless nights sometimes, and, and I think, people who are experienced in publishing, the they know that, you know, they're like, what the at least one type of that will creep in from somewhere. It's, there is, I think, not a single book out there, which doesn't have at least one typo in it. But it obviously, as an editor, you have to focus on making sure that the typos, errors, all of those things, they they go down, they don't happen as often there's an issue, you are expected to deliver a clean, error free manuscript. That is, that's one part of the job. And I think, really, that's what the author is publishing with you. Right. I mean, the author is trusting your editorial sensibilities and other things. Yeah.

Aishwarya  48:13

What do you think about, you know, AI, this is the topic of discussion. nowadays. So, you know, obviously, there are a lot of things related to AI that are impacting books, there are AI written books now that are starting to come up. There are now new software's especially for audiobooks as well, right. Like for voice narration. Yeah. Where you know, you have you give the software like a, I think, 32nd, one minute audio clip, and then it can sort of have the entire audiobook narration done in that particular voice, things like that. So what do you think about these developments? Do you think they are helpful? They are threatening? Do you think it's all just overrated?

49:02

It is definitely something I'm sure everyone's thinking about. Because I think, I think what no one was prepared for is the pace at which the conversations around AI have really, you know, enveloped our world right now. I think. I mean, we are in June right now. I don't think we were talking about AI to this degree in 2020 to June, we weren't but I think the last six months or eight months, it's really accelerated and, and the the nature of social media algorithms is such that it can track what you're reading, and what you're paying more attention to. So even if your eyes eyes are reading more articles about AI or you hitting the like button, it'll probably throw more articles about

Aishwarya  49:51

I'm being bombarded by AI.

49:53

Yeah, so that's actually Twitter. Yeah. So

Aishwarya  49:57

you know, these, a lot of people like a Experts have started putting on these tweets, which are just like your attend new AI is that have come up this week. And these are all the things that they do. And I just like, I keep unfollowing and like sort of being like, please don't show me any more of these things.

50:14

No, you're right, it's exactly the same, you know, I need to it's like, you know, Excel, Microsoft Excel is dead, you don't need formulas anymore. PowerPoint is dead, you know, stuff like that here are five tools, you know, you don't need to be a learn, you don't need to know, Adobe Premiere to be edit videos anymore, you know, stuff like that. So I think broadly, from a publishing point of view, I think we're, we're curious to see how AI can help the process, I think, and I have a feeling for the just the editorial or the editing process, per se. I have a feeling AI may be a lot more useful for works of nonfiction. Where it's, it's pretty, you know, in terms of delicate cleanup job or just making sure the sentences are grammatically correct. And you know, it's all work. Yeah.

Aishwarya  51:08

Do you think AI would make copy editors and proofreaders obsolete?

51:12

I don't know. So when we when a copywriter is editing, he is editing, not in isolation. He's editing it with the author. And if the author's word is the final word, I think that's something I don't know if any software can gauge right now. But it's a space, I'm sure everyone is very keenly observing and looking out. And obviously, dealing with a machine dealing with a human, there are pros and cons to both of these things. I think specifically in fiction or literary fiction, I am expecting AI to be a bit of a tough or not the right match. literary fiction tends to be, you know, has a certain personality, it has the writers touch.

Aishwarya  51:58

It's difficult to put in a template or formula as such.

52:05

Yeah, yeah. But I'm expecting AI to offer more answers. In terms of who's reading my book, how long are they reading for? What is the age profile of, you know, someone who's purchased my book from say, you know, a Ludhiana or, you know, Lucknow, these are stats I'm not getting right now,

Aishwarya  52:26

more books telling ya reading.

52:30

So can technology help make us publish better? That is the answer. I'm expecting AI to give me. Can I? So for example, at the moment, you know, you would have spoken to publishers, and you know, you, you probably know that inventory and stocks that are lying in the warehouse, you know, just making sure the book is reaching the right parts of the country? How can tech sort of help us do that better? How can I intelligently gauge how many copies of a book I must print? And intelligently tell me that, okay, this book is due for a reprint, or you know, these are parts of the book, which people have liked a bit more than the others. And I'm saying specifically for print books, because for ebooks, and audiobooks, we can get that data provided, you know, Amazon and the platform, they share that data. So I mean, they do they are they're familiar with the data, it's probably not reaching us to the way we want it. But I'd like to know that for the print book, and see if that's helping us. So it's interesting. I must compare how say an OTT platform evaluates the success of a streaming show. So the OTT platform will tell you at what point most people have dropped off, you know, let's say the pilot was great. But you know, I think third episode may, you know, people dropped off at this this point, or, you know, and what they're aiming for is that people who watch the show end to end well, whose was was the show in how many hours? So if more people have watched the show in very limited amount of management's have binge watched it? Yeah, people people had to sort of watch the next episode. I'm looking for that sort of data for AI to offer. No, no, just my point of view. I think for audio, specifically, we are already being approached by people who are saying, you know, we can do specific kinds of voices. I am aware that activists in the UK and the US where AI is sort of, you know, a lot more part of the mainstream conversation they have so far not use AI for audiobooks, per se. It's I think it's a it's a conscious decision, I believe, because you know, you have worked with the voiceover Narrator community with studios for so long. It's not going to be an easy transition to make. And I think, even though the technology may have arrived, which can make you believe it's actually read by a human, think the way a listener would interpret it is still up for discussion, to know that it's been narrated by a bot that will know that there was a person behind the mic who narrated it, it's a different feeling. So it's a space where I think everyone's going to be observing very keenly over the next two years. But I think in the next two to three years, one would expect some changes to happen, or maybe a deeper implementation of AI to come in. I think, as an industry, certainly we need to embrace tech, a lot more than we do right now. We still not embrace tech the way we should, at least for free marketing and in other things. Yeah.

Aishwarya  55:42

Definitely, I think being open to the tech changes and sort of seeing how we can use them for our benefit. I think notion presses currently trying to come up with an audio narration AI, as well. Yeah. Which, like I said, Would I think then there, the idea is that it would copy the author's voice. Okay. So essentially, for readers, it would be that the author has read out the audiobook. Right, like the narration style, and all of Yeah. But yeah, so I think, more focusing on technological advancements that are I think, reducing the overall cost of production, whether it is for authors, whether Exactly, exactly, yeah, and how those can benefit. But definitely, I think AI is this big question where everyone is, thinking a little bit about what is going on. And I think that the changes are happening so rapidly, that for any industry to be able to keep track of what is the new thing, or even, you know, like, for this series, I interviewed a copyright lawyer. Right. So again, the question of copyright that comes up because of AI written books over AI created art, right? Where we already have a lot of books coming out that are AI written, but like, what is to stop people from just not saying they're AI? And so the this question of who owns the copyright, who is actually writing? How do we look at these things? I think all of these questions will keep coming up, which will have to just,

57:21

it still has to work as a book, it still has to work as a story, it still has to I mean, the prompts will still need to be given by a human being right? Like, yes, yes. The larger story.

Aishwarya  57:32

Yeah, this article of an author who I think last year, in the last couple of years, has written over has published over 50 books. Right? Because he has been able to write the books with the help of AI. So it is still the author's books, right? It's just that for the author, and he's taking that, like he's owning the fact that he's using AI to write the books. And for him, it's like, okay, the AI is helping me write the books faster. Yeah. Right, like, churn out the books in a way that wouldn't be possible if he was literally manually, right. Yeah. I'm not read any of the books. I don't know anything. But I'm just saying that, you know, things like that, I think it's more a question of timelines, or the process of production, or the time that it takes to produce some, yeah, not going to be affected by AI, which is interesting to look at.

58:23

I think it might speed up the process. A lot of I think, as I said, tech, if it makes the process more efficient, you know, then I think people will embrace tech a lot more, but personally, just very, on a very personal level. If someone has used AI to, you know, write, say an essay. At this point of time, I mean, I would think, you know, you've sort of found an easy way out. I mean, yeah, I mean, you do make that same author, you know, beat him against St. Amitav Ghosh anymore. And let's say, Amit, of course, does not use AI, he writes the old fashioned way. I'll probably get the copy signed of the book by Amitabh Gosh, not because the AI is not going to sign the copyright. He's going to say, hey, it's yeah, it's my story. But the hard yards have been put in by the machine. But it definitely an interesting time. I mean, and for people who for example, say my English is not great. My punctuation grammar is not great, but I'm someone who can really put in the prompts am a great at prompting the machine to craft and you know, I know the percent

Aishwarya  59:35

of ideas and plot but maybe do not have necessarily the skill set to write sure, in that sense.

59:44

So that can be very liberating, right? I mean, I can really attempt to tell a story without seeming like hey, you know, I, I don't know. I mean, I haven't gone to the Iowa writers workshop, but you know, I'm using the machine to sort of help me do it. And if I'm declaring upfront that look, this has been written by me in collaboration with technology. Is it something a publisher is open to right now? I'm sure. Yeah, why not? At the end of the day, the editor who's evaluating the story for publishing for him or her, the story still needs to work. It still needs to be, you know, convincing, emotional, or, you know, whatever you expecting from that genre. It still needs to be if it's a crime fiction, it's needs to be a well plotted crime story with a satisfying ending. And I think once your book makes a big dent, or makes it in the top of the charts, I think then with this conversation will sort of gather steam. That still hasn't happened yet.

Aishwarya  1:00:43

So now let's go to the last section, which is a rapid fire. Coffee, that current format, what is coffee with current Dan to us? Yeah, he's just every podcast and so the rapid fire? Sure. Way to go. Go for it. Okay, one audio book that you wish you were involved in.

1:01:11

Not so rapid. Not so rapid. Just off the top of your head, the subtle art of not giving a fuck? Okay.

Aishwarya  1:01:23

I have listened to that audiobook. Okay, if not books, what would your alternate career be in? Pills?

1:01:32

Writing of scale?

Aishwarya  1:01:35

Would you ever write a book?

1:01:40

I would want to

Aishwarya  1:01:41

Yes. What would it be about?

1:01:44

It would be it would be about it would be about a world I'm familiar with. I wouldn't write about something I don't know. So maybe as a publishing professional, if I'm writing a book, it would probably be maybe a bit like yellow face. A world I'm familiar with.

Aishwarya  1:02:01

Yeah. Nice. Okay, one publishing professional, who you admire?

1:02:09

And then banaba. who's who? Who leads HarperCollins?

Aishwarya  1:02:12

Yeah, yeah. Okay. A decent book you worked on that you want to give a shout out to

1:02:21

Sudan. It was hemogram Small. It's available in print, ebook and audio. So if you love listening or reading memoirs, this is a memoir. That's a very well written one.

Aishwarya  1:02:34

Okay. What are you reading right now?

1:02:37

I'm reading the Ramayana by that's translation by Ramesh Menon. Okay. And I think the recent, you know, controversy brouhaha around the bush made me want to really revisit the text and see it and it's, you know, in a better of that.

Aishwarya  1:02:58

Thank you so much. I could pull this podcast and talking to me about all things publishing.

1:03:05

Thank you. Thank you. I had a great time. Thanks for the very, you know, thanks for the questions and for your insights was a pleasure. Thanks. That was

Aishwarya  1:03:14

the end of another episode of the book people tune in every Thursday for some breakdowns, some truth bombs, and some insightful and real conversations with industry experts about all things books. This podcast is created by Bob. We work with writers and brands to create content across formats, whether it's books, podcasts, newsletters or screenplays. So get in touch to see how we can help you grow through stories. And follow us about India on all social media platforms. I'm your host, Ashley as you can follow me on LinkedIn where I share many, many more insights about books and content. Or you can get in touch with me at ushuaia@bounder.com If you have any suggestions on topics I should cover, or if you want to book any of my services or consultation calls. Until then, keep writing