32. Why India Needs A Bookselling Revolution, With Ajay Jain

Aishwarya speaks with Ajay Jain, founder of Kunzum, about the importance of collaboration in the publishing world, and the necessity for the Kunzum Bookselling Reimagined Conference. Why is a community and collaboration important to bookstores?  How did the Kunzum cafe begin? Why does Ajay think Amazon is a toxic force towards social and cultural development? How have pirated books infiltrated the market?

Ajay Jain is a traveller, writer and photographer, and the founder of Kunzum in Hauz Khas, New Delhi. Kunzum started as a gallery to showcase his own photographic art and books over coffee and has now emerged as the most popular community of travellers in India. Ajay studied Mechanical Engineering, did an MBA and finally studied Journalism in London. He has written 9 printed books and over 50 e-books. He is a traveller at heart, both literally and metaphorically.

Aishwarya Javalgekar is a writer, book editor and podcast producer. As the Head of Originals she specializes in creating stellar content across formats - books, podcasts, newsletters, etc. She is a member of WICCI - Print Media and previous experience in  Zubaan Books and Simon and Schuster Canada.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aishwaryajavalgekar/
Email: aishwarya@boundindia.com
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Produced by Aishwarya Jawalgekar
Edited by Kshitij Jadhav

Transcript

00:00

So one fine day, without much of planning or something I said, Okay, I'm gonna write travel books, and I'm gonna write travel books primarily on India. I sat in my car and I, I hit the road. And I went to this region called City and I had never seen such a desolate, isolated high altitude, cold region as apathy. And when I was driving, there were no human beings to be seen for hours. No, no, no road signs, nothing. And I said, Okay, I am lost. And this is how people get lost, never to be found again. Bound

Aishwarya  00:43

Welcome to another episode of The BookPeople, where I decode the latest developments and exciting things happening in India's media and publishing industries. And I talk to the people who are making all of this happen behind the scenes. Today, I'm talking to someone who has worn many, many hats over the years, sports management, engineering, photography, writing, and now bookselling So, Ajay Jain, is the founder of console, which was earlier a travel cafe. Before that it was a gallery. And now it is a series of five bookstores that across Delhi. So I talked to Ajay about book selling about what publishers need to be doing to market and sell books more, how can we increase the number of readers and customers that are in India, and about the latest bookselling conference that took place at console. So let's dive in to get all the details you need to know about what is happening with brick and mortar bookstores, why Amazon needs to stop giving discounts and what his next book is gonna be about. So let's dive in. Hi, Joe. Welcome to the book people.

01:56

Yeah, thank you so much. Always happy to talk books.

Aishwarya  02:00

Yes. And, you know, I've been seeing obviously, consumer has been doing you know, a lot of events recently, now you have a chain of bookstores that are all of these exciting things happening. But also consume started in a very different way. Right. And over the last few years, there has been this transformation of what consume was what it has become an everything that you're doing right now. So how did that transformation take place in the first place? You know, what was that moment where you saw an opportunity, or you kind of thought this is the direction that consume now needs to take?

02:35

Yeah, actually, ever since I took to being a traveler, I realized that the traveler in me, what I discovered for myself is both a traveler literally, and and it also become became a kind of a, in a metaphorical sense of philosophy in life. So, just going back a little in history, I've had backgrounds in engineering and MBA, then got into it, then sports management. So I did all that. And then at the ripe age of 31, I dropped everything and I actually traveled to the UK to pursue a master's in journalism. And I came back I worked for newspapers, I ran up a newspaper of my own youth newspaper, and, and then I got into, like, writing columns and started with tech blogging and all so around 2007 I was at a both a personal and professional crossroads. And I was wondering, okay, I need to do something else with my life. And and that's when the moment came that okay, I want to be a travel travel writer. So one fine day, without motion planning or something. I said, Okay, I'm gonna write travel books, and I'm gonna write travel books primarily on India. I sat in my car, and I, I hit the road. And I went to this region called City and when I was driving up i i drove from here to from Delhi to Manali. And from one after Manali, I was heading to city, and I had never seen such a desolate, isolated high altitude, cold region as a city. And when I was driving, there were no human beings to be seen for hours. No, no, no road signs, nothing. And I said, Okay, I am lost. And this is how people get lost and never to be found. Again, there is no such thing as mobile signals in that region. There's no Google Maps, nothing, right? Because there's no road. There are no people. There's no network, right? And then I kept driving, and I went up a hill, and then suddenly I hit a plateau. And standing on that plateau, almost 15,000 feet above sea level. I saw a reverse sign heading to Casa which was my destination for the day, right? And I said, like, Okay, wow, okay, I'm not lost. Okay, I found my way to my destination. But when I stood on that spot, and I looked around, and as far as the eye could see, it was like a horizon going into infinity. All I could see were clear blue skies. Got a nice, cool breezy day hitting me. And, and snow peaks all around. And about Buddha's plant observe fluttering around a little kind of a, you know, like a little shrine to near where I was standing. And I said, this is this is the planet. And if this is the country that I live in, I need, this just kind of reinforces my idea that I want to be a travel writer. All of it and books. Yeah. And I said, I'm going to be discovering India by road. And in that moment, I not only found my direction to Casa, which was my destination for the day, but I also found my direction in life. And the spot that I was standing on is called consume law. Oh, okay. Yeah. So alarming name? Yeah. So I, I came back, I call my blog consumed.com. I started blogging on it, I started writing my books. And then in 2009, I set up a little gallery in Huskers village, and I called it the Kunzum gallery. On the first day itself. You know, I sold a painting, like more like a photo print, and I was excited. I said, Wow, what a great business decision. Right. And for the, for the next one year, I did not sell a single asset, single train. So if something is wrong, because I've done a few shows at places like India habitat center and a few other places, I said, Okay, I need to kind of do something. And then sitting with some friends, we came up with an idea. Let's convert Kunzum Galloway into a thing called consume travel cafe. The idea was that we create some seating over there. We allow people to come and give them free Wi Fi. Give them some books to read. And we introduced coffee with some special cookies and tea with the idea. Pay what you like. Yeah. So we launched that. And lo and behold, like, it became an almost an overnight success. People were coming all over. We got huge media coverage. Every social media was still relatively new. But we were all over social media. And then people came and asked me, Hey, can we do some events here? I said, Yeah, sure. Go ahead. And before we knew it, it became a community of communities with people coming and doing all kinds of events. We have, there could be music, gigs, book launches, travel talks, debates, you name it, it happened there. Right? We had a little brush with Bollywood also. We had the launch of the screenplay of my brother Nikhil, where the filmmaker on air and, and the actors do, which Allah and Sanjay Suri were there. And then we also got a little blink and you miss footage in this movie called listen to Maya, which was shot with Farooq Sheikh. And yeah, so it became, it was great fun, I continue traveling, I continued my books, my photography, my blogging, and and boom, and then everything came to a standstill during the pandemic. Yeah,

Aishwarya  07:58

because all of this was pre pandemic, right? I was just gonna ask, especially when it's, you know, called a travel cafe, the point is traveling, obviously, locked down, none of that is happening. Yeah. So then I think you pivoted them a little.

08:11

So during the pandemic, actually even a little, I have a philosophy in life, that just because you're good at something, and you're successful at it, you can't keep doing the same thing all your life. Right. So I said, even before the pandemic, I was kind of reconsidering, okay, I've done enough of traveling. While there's no end to travel, I need to explore other genres of writing, maybe I need to make some other choices. But I knew I wanted to be in the creative field. That was for sure. And, and then when the pandemic came, because everything was at a pause, it just give me give me a reason to kind of further reflect. But during the pandemic, I continued writing my books, I published a couple of books during the pandemic, but then I kept thinking, How do I really take these books to market and my learning was that whether you're publishing it under your own imprint, whether it's a big publisher, like a penguin or a hopper, or it's an independent publisher, the fact is, every author needs to market themselves. And then I said, Okay, I have this brand called consume travel cafe, can I make it a chain where the but there was no business viability? I thought, okay, let's make it a chain of reading rooms. But again, there was no the numbers didn't add up. Then I even toyed with the idea of creating a larger than life book club, like a kind of an opera kind of a book club, right, and then select that I started off also, and we got a lot of good response. But I said, Look, this is again to virtual, and I'm happy being in a face to face situation, despite all of us being at home with all the uncertainty looming, you know, upon us that the the, there was nobody could say when the pandemic would end. But and then I've learned what there was a moment that came as like, hey, you know what, I already know how to build a community called the condom travel CAFE. Alright, let's build a bookshop around that. And then that's when that's when we pivoted. And that was kind of late 2021. And me being me, the idea came to me came to a mind, it kind of, I played with, in my mind, for a bit. When I say a bit, it could be as little as just a few hours or a day or two. And then I started running with the idea. And everybody was around me like, hello, what are you doing? I'm opening bookstores. But what do you know about bookstores? I learned I learned,

Aishwarya  10:35

right, especially during the pandemic, right? Because there was so much discussion about how badly like brick and mortar bookstores were affected and gone down. And you know, everyone was buying off of Amazon, obviously. And that having to shut down and there were all of these issues. And in the middle of that starting bookstores, I think now you started five it.

10:57

Yeah, so my initial, my initial idea was to open 100. But then we launched with five, almost simultaneously within a very short span. And next thing I knew that I want to just focus on these fives for the time being, because the initial idea what they would look like, and when we went to the drawing board, the way that came out, I realized that, okay, we can't just mindlessly replicate. Because if you've created something which is being appreciated, even at the initial stages, we have to be very careful that in that race for expansion, right, we don't lose the essence of what we're being liked for. Yeah, right. Because scalability always comes as a challenge, especially in a country like India, where people where talent is always, you know, like, not easy to come by. Right? So yeah, so currently, we stand at five stores. Within these we are evolving, we're doing, we're ideating, they've been kind of expansions within the stores, we are doing something on something digitally also. So we've got a whole bunch of things happening. But this is how, you know, it's permitted states happened.

Aishwarya  12:11

And all five stores are in Delhi, right.

12:14

There in Delhi region. Yeah.

Aishwarya  12:15

Are you planning to expand to other cities like Mumbai? Where?

12:20

Yeah, I would, I would like to write, but I want to be sure that, number one, one thing I'm sure I want, I want to enjoy the process, right. And I don't want things like finances, logistics, people management and stuff like that, to take the fun out of the business, if I'm just kind of running around, trying to make things happen. And just firefighting and so deeply involved in operations, that both the reader in me and the writer me suffers, then the whole idea of being in this space is lost. So I think a lot of things have happened, kind of on their own, right, the opportunities have opened up, and I'm sure that a suitable expansion opportunity will come our way, just a matter of time. And we'll do it in a way that we enjoy it. And it's also feasible.

Aishwarya  13:07

So right now, how actively Are you involved in sort of the day to day, you know, selling processes or the events of the five bookstores?

13:16

Well, I managed to get four hours of sleep the rest of the time, I'm doing this, okay. Yeah, people around me, are they like, you know, are they you're working all the time. So look, it's a very what I'm trying to build, fortunately, and unfortunately, it's like, all in my head. Right? And I can't, and a lot of it is also ideation and progress. I'm also learning a lot, and I need to be in the thing of the action. Right? And so, yeah, I'm actually totally hands on totally involved. And this was, in fact, before the pandemic, I actually also told myself that one thing I will not do is kind of shadow ventures where I have to hire people, I'll stay like I'll kind of a lone ranger, whatever they can do in my own capacity. And now I'm running an operation, which is the most complex operation I've run run in my whole career.

Aishwarya  14:01

Yeah. Because especially if you are scaling and you have five bookstores you plan to have 100. I mean, how many hours in a day? What do you need to run 100 bookstores yourself,

14:10

right? It gets like, like, I always say, after opening these five, we might be 100. In my lifetime, we might be 20. Or we might say five, I'm I'm I'm perfectly fine with it. As long as like I said, it's viable, and it's the process is enjoyable.

Aishwarya  14:25

Yeah, definitely. That makes sense. And you know, what you said about building community as well, because So, earlier, I had interviewed Leonard Fernandez, who has the, you know, bookstore and go. He also talks a lot about how especially for brick and mortar bookstores, and independent bookstores, the most important thing is building that community, right? Because that kind of gets readers in and people sort of visit the bookstore more, you know, buy the books. So obviously community is a big part of, you know, consumers well, and you're doing a lot of events. I think that is one of the main things that you're doing as well. Well, where each of these bookstores have become, you know, event spaces. So do you pick and choose what kind of events you want to do? Are there specific events that are, you know, more exciting or more interesting to you? Or are you just like any event is great, you know, any artistic event that kind of brings people in and creates that community is great for concern.

15:21

So when people approached us for events, or we come up with ideas for our events, so most events we say yes to, okay, right. It could be a book reading a book launching launch, it could be a book signing, it could be theater, it could be live music, it could be a talk, it could be anything, we say yes to almost everything.

Aishwarya  15:40

What do you say no to? Question.

15:43

Yeah, actually, we've, like, we've learned a few things. Like in our earlier after, right in house, cars village, when we were running, the country travel cafe, this, these poetry slams were very popular. Right. And a lot of young people used to come and, and we were okay with it. But we did a few now especially like, Wow, a lot of people come. But unfortunately, the, the audience that came for them, didn't really buy books. And because they they kind of travel in big numbers, they actually occupied the whole store, which became inconvenient to shoppers, right. So events like those where we feel it's obstructive to our normal customers, because our event spaces are entered to kind of integral to the whole bookstore. They're not like two separate spaces, right? So we need to make sure that customers who walk in they don't get inconvenienced. Right, so so we say yes, to almost every event. But gradually, we are becoming a little more discerning about where we kind of get totally involved. So what do you say, Okay, so a lot of events, we say, you'll use us as a venue, we'll provide you the ground support, whatever you need, you need the seating you need, the projectors, the mics, the coffee, whatever you need, we'll take care of that. But it's really your baby, we're just a location for you like,

Aishwarya  17:04

like, logistics, but not the programming of the other programming or the promotion.

17:12

Only. So progressively, we get involved only in a few events, deeply where we feel it's off of a certain significance to us, either from a PR point of view, or from a sales point of view, or just because it needs to be done. Right. So some events we kind of we own and we curate and other events, we can't we become partners. So it's kind of again, like I said, for everything that we're doing. A lot of it is ideation in progress, and learning and progress, because we're also learning a lot of things, of course,

Aishwarya  17:47

and ultimately, it does need to tie into the business, right, like you said, I mean, you're doing events, obviously, because events are great, but then you want to bring in people or encourage people who will also buy the kinds of books that

17:59

Yeah, but again, we don't, we don't follow like a very, like a strict formula that okay, if an event happened and 50 people came, and did we get x revenue, or did we not get x seven you because I look at things very differently. And that was my learning with the constant travel cafe, like the that whole, pay what you like, right? Philosophy, not just for the coffee, but even for the events and people wanting to use a space, I kind of brought that whole thing here because that itself creates so much PR that money can buy. And that also kind of created such a kind of a fondness for the brand. And that when we launched, I told my team, I said, Look, if you didn't have the legacy of the quantum travel Cafe, and we just launched as an unknown brand coming into, and we had done exactly the same thing that we're doing today, the same kind of store the same kind of events, right? I said, look, the the uptake might have been a little slower, because people have been wondering who is this brand, but the moment we use the brand consumed because especially the Delhi region is very familiar with the brand consume, it actually gave us a little head start in terms of familiarity and that brand fatness,

Aishwarya  19:10

yeah, no, I totally understand because it's not also about immediate sales, right? It's not okay, what, how much money did I get today? And how many books should I sell today by doing this event? But like you said, you're building your brand, and you're building consumers this space, right? Where a lot of events can happen where people in Delhi when they kind of think of planning an event that is around books or anything artistic, or creative, they will think of consume as a venue to go to right so

19:39

obviously, because I'm sure the what prompted you to have this conversation with me was not just because there's a new guy in town selling books, right. There's something you're doing beyond just selling books. Right. And that's what probably like, kind of got you thinking, Hey, let your last interview him.

Aishwarya  19:55

Yeah, I mean, honestly, for me, it was also it was the booksellers conference. Yeah. up, which also happened recently, because that, again was a, you know, talking about events. I think that was something that you also obviously were programming away. And that was a big event that kind of happened. So I also wanted to talk to you about that, you know, how did you come up with the idea of the conference? Because I think in India, obviously, we have, you know, different literary festivals, we have sort of events and festivals, but conferences as such, you know, industry conferences, we have, obviously, the publishers next conference, which happens, you know, once a year has been happening for the last few years. But other than that, there has been nothing really in India. So, what was your thought process behind the booksellers? One,

20:42

but I think the books industry, the publishing industry is one industry, where we are competitors. And we are not competitors. Yeah, right. Because it's not like a, it's not like you're buying a refrigerator, or you're buying a car that you will buy only one of it, right? Or even if you go to buy shirts, for example, you know, okay, you buy a car, you just want to buy one or two or three shirts, like books or something where there is no limit, you go to a bookstore to buy a book, and you could come back with 10 books, and does and it's one industry where all the brands, right are on the same bookshelves, right? And the next to each other. And, and so many people work in the publishing industry, right, actually, you know, if everybody's, everybody's alma mater, right, there are people who work with Penguin, they work to Harper and they worked at Bank. Three, oh, isn't

Aishwarya  21:31

it? And it's also for the reader if they buy a HarperCollins. That is good, because then they will also buy the penguin book and the Zubaan.

21:41

Yeah, so so that there that there's like a very kind of fuzzy line between people being competitors, and ex colleagues and future colleagues. But so, but very importantly, I think, all this talk that, you know, we're not selling enough books there. And I looked at some figures, they're all unconfirmed figures. But the industry is not really kind of expanding at the rate, it should it should be, I think, we keep complaining that the market is not expanding enough, right? Not enough books are being sold. And, and that's why we brought this conference together. And we call it book selling, reimagined. The idea was that at the bigger picture level, let's talk about what can we do to expand readership and society? Right. And at the micro level, let's talk about tools and tips and tricks on how to sell how authors and publishers and and books can be promoted. So in the latter, we talked about social media strategy is about building community is about building newsletters, advertising and all that stuff. But at the bigger picture, at the bigger level, right, we spoke about what do we need to do to get more people talking books to, to remind people that there are books that exist, they should be reading books, the value of books, the joy of books, right? So that was the idea. It's we made a start, these are conversations that are going to be unending, number one, and number two, like with every other conference of this nature, right? Everything right was said on the stage and of the stage, and how do you implement them into idea into action? Right now? That's always a challenge. Yes. So but, but we don't start talking along these lines, the action will not happen.

Aishwarya  23:29

Yeah, no. And what you said about, you know, the older organizations or companies in the industry kind of being very intermingled is very true. And especially when it comes to sales, I think, you know, for example, in North America, obviously, there is like one database, right, or one organization that is tracking all the sales that is kind of, it's a little bit more transparency, I think, of which books are doing well, which books are not doing well, sales numbers, that kind of also allows the industry to kind of function and know what's going on. I think in India, it's a little bit more scattered, especially when it comes to sales. Because you know, and this happens, even when, say we are talking to readers, right? Or a lot of writers or people who want to enter and work in the publishing industry, where the love for books is so strong, that it kind of overpowers their ability to see the books as products. Ultimately, these are products they need to be sold, there are sales figures, some do well, some don't do well. And sometimes there is a very logical reason. And sometimes there just isn't, you know, and how do you kind of make sense of all of it. So I think having this kind of a conversation also brings in more of a transparency where you know, different companies are sort of able to be like, Okay, this is what is going on. And these are kind of the trends, you know, which we kind of know, but also don't know, and there is a lot of guesswork and mold to make it more I think, factual, if that makes sense to sort of be able to collate data to be like, Okay, this is the information we're all sharing this information. And now how can we Was it to sell more books? Right? So is this a conference that you're thinking of making an annual thing? So

25:07

I while I don't have a time, like I should, you wouldn't mind. But the important thing is, don't keep it just an annual thing. Right? There needs to be kind of follow up sessions, even if they're like, smaller roundtable, smaller discussions, most conversation, because if you don't keep having these constant conversations, like we're gonna have this, you know, annual Jamboree, we all want to say the right things. And then we're gonna forget it till the next one. And I because I've seen enough conferences, not just in the publishing space, but in so many sectors. And that's exactly what happens. The intent is good, right? But if you don't kind of keep at it, people forget. Because in that in the daily kind of shadows, people just forget. And the thing is, everybody knows what needs to be done. Yeah. Right. But it's not happening. Whatever the constraints, whatever the hesitations, but it's not happening. Because all the people from the travel from the publishing industry on stage, they were all saying the right things, and I was looking at them, I said, Look, if you're saying this, why don't you? Why don't you execute them? Because as a bookseller, I need that marketing support from publishers, but I'm not getting that.

Aishwarya  26:16

Yeah. What is an example of this? You know, when you say, as a bookseller, you need certain things from publishers? What are those things that you think booksellers need? Or, you know, bookstores need today?

26:26

So do we have? Do we have like, five days for that?

Aishwarya  26:31

Okay, one thing, what is one thing,

26:33

I think it's everything. Because, you know, right from from marketing collaterals to paying enough attention to a book in terms of its publicity when I say publicity, you know, building social media campaigns, building a following around that maybe building some newsletters around the for the author doing some advertising, even if it's lower cost, digital advertising, right. Even providing us information for us to put on social media, providing us beyond the those AI chips at the same which is just like a more of a descriptor. Send us some teasers send us some author bites on videos, there's so many things that need to be done. The problem is that the publishers end up looking at marketing for most authors as Oh, as HarperCollins, or a speaking tiger or a penguin. Right? I am doing this marketing in general. But each book is in Yeah, it's like a product in itself. It's a brand in itself, it needs its own brand management. Right, it can't be part of 50 books or 500. Books.

Aishwarya  27:40

Yeah, its own campaign, because each book will also have DNS. So are you reaching that? Or are you pulling out, you know, the importance of that? And also, recently, I've been also seeing that, you know, because also, marketing budgets for different books vary, right? With publishers, depending on obviously, how much money the publishers have, how big there are also, depending on how well do they think the book is going to do? So because they have an idea key, okay, like a celebrities book, or, you know, like a booklet, they think that this is going to have great sales, you know, clearly putting in more money, more marketing, sort of efforts into promoting that book, whereas a book that for them is, you know, sort of a small fish, there's also not a lot of marketing money or effort put into that book. So it, it I think it also kind of, you know, it's self prediction, right? Because, because they think that a book is not going to do well, there's not a lot of marketing effort, and the book doesn't do well. And a lot of authors now, you know, we're seeing authors trying to put in their own money into doing book marketing into making exactly these materials and bytes and book trailers and trying to run ads and all of these things. So when it's also like, who is putting in the money to market the book and then even if authors are putting in the money, then how can we help them as well right to market their books as well?

29:02

Yeah, because a lot of authors number one, they need to have the inclination to be self market years, right, then then then they need to have the right ideas, they need to then they need to have the resources to invest in those ideas. Because if the publisher is not investing, right, and all the authors want to get his probably the the royalties, right and they have to recoup their investment from there. So then then you have authors who are saying that okay, you know, I'm in it for the the vanity and the joy of it, right? Well, I want to sell more books, even if it doesn't matter doesn't need to pay for my to keep the fires burning at home.

Aishwarya  29:34

Right. And this doesn't right at this point. There are rarely any authors. I don't think any author is sustaining themselves only.

29:42

Yeah, so. Yeah, so that's why I feel like maybe publishers also need to be a little more choosy in the books they publish, then stack them in the title of the pickup, do fewer titles, but look at bigger winners, potential winners. And, and and put your marketing weight behind it. Right. But what happens is that everybody's spreading themselves too thin. And books that do make it like, you know, though, which are kind of breakout successes, right? Suddenly they get keep getting all the attention. But hey, there's only a success. Like you're only to put in the resources behind those now you what, why don't you invest in the other books, which are kind of good books but which are kind of not getting their place under the sun,

Aishwarya  30:28

but a little bit more of a push. Yeah.

30:31

So and then the other thing, the other thing, and most of the marketing is actually very kind of oriented towards Indian authors. So local publishing, but, but that's one thing I keep telling authors and publishers, as I look that one has to any book is competing, not with other Indian authors, but it's competing with the world's best. Because in any bookstore, any ecommerce player, the world's best books are on display, and even the most ardent of readers, right? They can only read so many books in a year. So they're going to pick and choose the best and not be driven by any form of patriotism. Right. So one has to up the game, both in terms of the product itself, as well as the marketing behind it. Otherwise, why would anybody pick up books by Indian authors?

Aishwarya  31:27

Yeah. And I think people are so used to because obviously books that you know, have published in the US that kind of come into India, have a lot more publicity have a lot more visibility. So there are so many readers who don't even read Indian books, right? Because they don't even know where to start. Yeah, like I myself have so many friends who are readers will say, okay, yes, I read, but like, I don't know, if there are any good Indian books even coming out right now. They're even good Indian authors. And then you kind of have to give them a whole list and say here, but for a regular reader, even if they want to read, where are they? I think that visibility isn't enough yet, for them to kind of go and find those books themselves. Absolutely. Absolutely.

32:08

Yeah. So and that's why we've designed our stores in a way, that kind of aid discovery. And that's why we also do so many events. I think in the last one year, since we opened, we've posted over 700 authors, right? And so we call we in a way we sometimes informally use the hashtag 365 day like fast. Right concern. And but that's see, we can only do so much, right? Because at the end of the day, we don't we and the publishers, we don't we are not the publishing industry. And that's where we need support from the publishers. And but I think there's a little bit of there's some kind of either inertia, or lack of resources or lack of intent. But I think the publishers are not doing justice, to the authors that publish.

Aishwarya  33:01

Yeah, I think the feedback that I've been getting from a lot of authors is also you know, that a little bit of dissatisfaction from, you know, how the books are being marketed, how books are being sold, or I think for a lot of authors, because they just want to write, you know, they just want to write, they just want to, like, they're introverts, they don't want to do social media marketing, they're gonna build their profiles or worry about all of this hassle. And that's a big reason why they're also going traditional, right? Because, I mean, if they had that, like, the resources and the motivation to do all of the things, then they would, they could also choose to go the self publishing route, and do a lot more things, but you know, they want to just give the book to the publisher and be like, now it is your responsibility to sell it.

33:48

But I give this example like, you know, on the one side, you got the, you got people like Da Vinci and Michelangelo's who, you know, in their, in their lifetimes, they reap the financial dividends and the fame dividends of their work. And then you have people like Wango right? Who who went unrecognized in the lifetimes but we are after that people are made billions of their works. So I said pick and choose like the former were good marketeers not just good artists, and the latter was a great artist but not a good market here. So pick up pick

Aishwarya  34:24

exactly, I mean, to be an artist you have to be so many things because you have to have some amount of business acumen and understand contracts know your rights. You have to like do marketing to build brands. So I think all of this just becomes a part of becoming a successful artist or a writer today.

34:41

Absolutely. You have to you have to market yourself.

Aishwarya  34:45

Yeah. Since you're in the like, on the floor, you know, involved so heavily in books selling what is selling right now in India.

34:56

Everything Yeah,

Aishwarya  34:58

what is selling more?

35:02

We are basically a diverse country, right in terms of our social backgrounds, our educational backgrounds, our exposure, budgets, right. So it's very difficult to say this is telling us that is not selling, right, or this is selling more than this right is selling lesser, that there is a skew towards nonfiction, which a lot of publishers say that a lot of nonfiction sells, which is self help books and business books, and, and all these motivational books and all that are kind of doing well. But I think fiction is, is selling and good numbers. And for me, I keep telling everyone, like, nonfiction, you read mostly for keeping yourself informed and kind of getting some perspectives and stuff like that. But it's really fiction, which is elevating, because fiction is where you kind of get totally immersed, right, and where you get get, you know, you kind of go go into a different kind of a creative land a little different world altogether. And that's the, and that becomes habit forming, that becomes addictive. Because while there'll be exceptions, but you really can't get addicted to reading business books or, or history books or self help books and stuff like that. And I shouldn't be saying that as a as a bookseller, which can be detrimental to my own cause. But I tell people that you keep buying so many self help books and motivational books and business books, but really, it's just a handful of books where all the all the insights, if you're looking for it can be distilled in just a couple of books. And if you just follow the advice of those first few books that you've read, right, you'll be fine. But we kind of, you know, we don't want to come out of that little hole that we dug for ourselves. And we keep saying, oh, we need more information. We need more knowledge. We need more in, you know, education, right? But really go and it's like I tell people, when you go to a cinema hall, like do you go to watch documentaries? Or do you go to watch your entertainment? Likewise for books, right. And so, so I in fact, we've created these different book clubs and all and one of them is a CEO book club. Right? And we're telling CEOs or corporate executives, that this does not mean that you only read business books. Because your overall development we suggest, yes, you read business books, but you read biographies, you read history, you read fiction, you read comics, you read, you read everything.

Aishwarya  37:22

You can't read in a silo, you can't even like have knowledge in a silo, right? No. Yeah.

37:30

On a day to day basis, what are you looking for, you're looking for that calmness in your mind. And heart, you're looking for that creative, you're looking at kind of bring that creative side of you up, you're looking to be happy, you're hoping to be at peace with yourself, and just by reading one business book after another is not going to help you do that.

Aishwarya  37:50

So is that like how much curation is involved in the concern? bookstores, you know, in terms of the way the books that you sell, how you choose? And also I think how the books are placed? Do you think that, you know, it requires a lot more curation, where you kind of really pick and choose what you want people to read? Or do you more go by, you know, providing as much variety as possible, or giving as many options or do go by sort of what is best selling what is popular, according to you know, overall in India and also international.

38:27

So while we have to follow some kind of norms, like highlighting bestsellers, and award winners and new releases, and all right, but really what my personal outlook in curation, when a situation in terms of both the selection of titles that we keep in our stores, and the way we display them, is helping people discover stuff they were not looking for. Right, so that they are kind of their reading portfolio becomes more diverse, right? And, and when they read that stuff, and if they're happy with the recommendations, they that's how loyalty will build in because they say, You know what we went to consume, and we discovered stuff, which we were not even aware of. Right. And for such a great experience. I'm going to go back and pick up books on consumer itself. So for us that discovery is very risky.

Aishwarya  39:20

Yeah, and I think that's the beauty of, you know, brick and mortar bookstores, because I think with Amazon, it's a lot of oh, if you like this, you will like this. Showing the similar books are obviously you know, you go there and it's just the best sellers. Yeah, which is, you know, sort of the most popular ones. But, you know, with bookstores, I think there's so much curation right there is so much of this discovery or suggesting or showcasing books that you would not otherwise have heard of, or even know about unless you go to the bookstore and you kind of see, I think that is what kind of also makes, you know, bookstores and that sense. Absolutely. No, absolutely. Absolutely. Think about this whole, you know, brick and mortar versus Amazon debate, you know this whole thing about how because of Amazon books on, you know, like brick and mortar bookstores are not being able to sell or independent bookstores are suffering and whether Amazon sales are gonna take over completely the book sales in India. What is your opinion on this?

40:21

If I can make a very strong statement, right? I think Amazon is a very toxic force towards societal and cultural development, simply because because of discounting, right, what they're doing is, while there are some arguments that are because of Amazon, books are able to reach places where there are no bookstores and stuff like that. But the fact is, Amazon is largely cannibalizing into a market that already exists. But market expands through culture. And culture can only happen in bookstores, right there where people need that they talk books, and they get more interested in they're going to buy two books, and they come back with four books and they meet authors and they meet other leaders, right? That's where the market expands. Now, what happens is, there are two things that are happening on Amazon, right? One is discounting, and one is rampant piracy. Right, so so many books, and authors are getting books, that they're ordering their own books and getting pirated copies of their own books. Right the other day, somebody tweeted that he went to Dr. Shashi through to get a book signed by written by him. And Dr. Thoreau refuses it's a pirated copy.

Aishwarya  41:40

How are they pirating these copies? And how do you

41:44

know So Amazon is not pirating? But because the marketplace people are pirating books, they're selling on a platform, and they're getting delivered? I receive pirated books, everybody is getting pirated books.

Aishwarya  41:54

How do you identify that a book is pirated for people who are buying books of Amazon?

41:59

Maybe a layperson might not realize it, but people who are in the industry they know it's a pirated, copy, you look at it, and you know it? I can I can tell you it's a pirated copy. Right, even though I'm not so much on the publishing side of the business. So a couple of years back, the same problem was happening in France. So they enacted a law where they have for debarred Amazon from discounting books, because their logic was that by discounting books, if they sound the death knell of bookstores, it will be detrimental to the culture of the country. Right. And so likewise, for with Amazon, right, what happens is, when they when they're discounting, right, people get used to asking for discounts, even in bookstores. Right? Yeah. And and

Aishwarya  42:47

if you think it's a negotiation, you know, you can have like a deal and be like, Oh, yes, higher cost, can you introduce it a little bit.

42:55

And then what happens is, when when your margins get reduced, because brick and mortar stores have a high overhead, there are heavy rentals, their electricity costs, there are other utilities, their salaries to be paid their promotions to be done. It's a very it's a very expensive business to run. Right. And if you start discounting, 1015 20%, that's straightaway going out of your margins. Right. So sooner than later, the authorities will have to take action against Amazon. And and I think some of us if nobody else, please, I intend to the moment I get some time, myself, probably move the Competition Commission that this is an unfair trade practice. Yeah, so So if Amazon is not there, or Amazon is not discounting books, I can guarantee you many, many more bookstores will come up and readership in society will actually expand.

Aishwarya  43:48

Yeah, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But you know, what, you mentioned the flip side as well, because this is the argument that I see, which is that amaz, because of Amazon, a lot of smaller towns, or villages where there are no bookstores, you know, are getting access to books and books are getting delivered there. And what about the readers there? I think that becomes a question which then, obviously, if Amazon doesn't exist, you know, there has to be, there will be because there will be readers there. And you know, there'll be a market there for bookstores to come up. But also, I think,

44:21

yeah, but I'm saying that worldwide, right? Villages, small towns, they all had bookstores, including India.

Aishwarya  44:31

Right, saying that they used to exist, but have shut down because of Amazon,

44:34

Amazon? I won't say 100% because of Amazon. There are of course, other factors also, right. But the people may feel oh, there aren't enough people. People are not buying enough books, because they were distracted by social media and OTT and so many other forms of distraction and entertainment. Right but so that's Amazon is not the only force that is causing these bookstores to close. But the fact is, it's a it's a made reason now because I see an uptake uptick in reading, right? And with educational levels, or let's say literacy levels going up greater awareness about books, and and a fatigue setting in, you know, watching the television screen or your mobile screen, right? I think a lot of people are now suddenly realizing, hey, you know, we need to go back to books. So and people will see that the books no matter what, like I said, Amazon can exist. Right, but they can't discount.

Aishwarya  45:33

Make sense. So going back to, you know, obviously, one of your core identities, I think is travel and you know, you're a traveler, you write about traveling travel was how you came up with Kunzum as the name and the idea as well. How much does travel feature into the books, you know, and the curation? Like, do you have a lot of travel books? Do you think that it is important, whether it is books about travel writing? Or whether it is books just sort of showcasing different locations? Do you think that that is an important part of, you know, your outlook towards consume, as bookstores?

46:11

I think if you look at travel books, one is your one of your travel guides? I think there are there's like a slowdown on that on that front? And rightly so because travel is such a dynamic field. Right. And you get so much information online, that a travel guidance earlier format, is not necessarily the necessity anymore. So we don't we also don't keep too many travel guides, but travel literature. Right? When I said literature, it could be long form writing, whether by the kinds of Bill, Bill Bryson and all, are you talking about photographic books and all I think they still have a value we do stalk them. And yeah, I would like more travel literature to come out. But we don't see too much of it coming out, that we that we can promote. So there is a little supply side issue. And, but But I think, again, if you start reading books, right, somebody rightly pointed out something to this effect that basically books are also a form of travel. So every book that you pick up and read, you are actually traveling to another world. And and I can say that actually, personally, two, career slash personal choices that I made, was first to be in the travel space as a traveler, and now being in the book space. I think. These are the, you know, what else can somebody ask for? Yeah, just good coffee with it?

Aishwarya  47:49

Yeah, that's fine. You also done so many things, you know, like you mentioned, you were, you know, you did sports management, you're a journalism, you have degrees in engineering management, you know, you're a traveler, you're a writer? How do all of these identities merge into each other? You know, do you think that or like, you know, has your experience with say, sports management, you know, somehow influenced your, the decisions you make with books? Like, how do you kind of integrate all of these identities into one person who works 20 hours a day?

48:26

So I think all of these, you know, because you see life from different perspectives, you see life from different vantage points, you meet so many varied people, you like this, you know, so many exchange of ideas, information and information. So somewhere through osmosis, you know, that they know, something changes within you. Right? And, and that's why, you know, I may not be able to kind of have a very, like a very in depth discussion about a lot of subjects, but I can feel at a at home, or I can feel comfortable in a lot of discussions where, you know, because of this varied exposure that I've got, yeah. Tough knowledge. Yeah. Right. So I could be, you know, sitting with the and that's why when I got into publishing, right, because I was also self publishing my books. And because the book space, I've been trying, I've been making an effort to know people within the creative space and stuff like that. So for me, like I was, it wasn't like something I didn't just walk into a dark cave. And you know, I didn't need to figure my way out around. Yeah, there was a lot of technicalities involved. There were a lot of nuances involved, which you had to learn and I'm still learning. But the fact is that all of these varied experiences, like gives you a different kind of a, like a year you kind of your DNA mutates, right? And it gives you a little different kind of a worldview. And I wouldn't say I'm a jack of all trades. Isn't Master of None, I can say I'm like, somewhere in between some jackoff many. Yeah, so yeah, so it's and, and like I said earlier, like, why keep doing the same thing all your life, like you will work 35 years in Microsoft or in the IT space to one day be the CEO of Microsoft. Okay, okay, fine. And then what? Yeah, right. So

Aishwarya  50:24

you bring in all of these experiences, right into whatever you do, I think it's very interesting, because, you know, whoever, you know, a lot of people that I've spoken to, especially for this, you know, podcast, they've all had so varied experiences, like, most of them have not, don't have a direct path, you know, they studied whatever, or did English literature or whatever. And then they got into publishing, you know, they have such varied sort of economics, finance, you know, journalism, or just parts where they did a lot of different things, and then somehow ended up in publishing to kind of work with books. And obviously, then the work they do is so defined by all of these experiences, they have all the expertise that they bring in. So I think, in that sense, it's a very interesting industry. Because you know, the more in that sense experience you have, the more you're able to look at also that book from a variety of different ways. Rather than just, you know, the book itself, which I think is very interesting. Obviously, you know, you were doing a lot of different things before you got into book selling book selling, right with the bookstores. What is a fact? Or what is, you know, something that you do as a bookseller that you were highly unprepared for? And did not expect that you would have to?

51:41

Um, I like to think of that, because I did go into my intuitive my eyes open. Yeah. Right. And I think it's early days for us. Right. But I think I didn't think that I would need to do so much consumer marketing, I thought once you set up good store with good, good curation, and all right, while for a while one might say, okay, there aren't so many people reading books, right. But there's still a significant number. I think we still need to do a lot of marketing to bring people in into the stores and get them to pick up books and all. I think that's one thing which the curve is longer than what I expected it to be. Yeah. So

Aishwarya  52:25

what are you because you know, this, you've written a lot of books and across different subjects in a way? Yes. Your experience as a writer influence your book selling?

52:37

Oh, I think I think so. Because he actually goes back to my journalism training, because as a journalist, one of the things I learned that I, like, one of the first beats that I was given to cover was pharmaceuticals. Right? And as like, like, I was sitting with my subjects, and they were like, rattling off chemical names online. And I couldn't make sense of it. And I had to go back and give my read of the story. Right? And that's where I learned that. Like, as a journalist, how do you kind of cover almost any subject? Right, without necessarily having like, a background in that subject? How do you how do you research? How do you put together stories? How do you kind of present them to the to your audience, and that's what helped me write books across different genres. And, and because of my, again, varied experience, and both as a reader and as a writer, right. So when I look at the store, while some genres I may not be comfortable talking about, but largely, I find myself at ease, curating the collections from afar kinds of books, while I have my colleagues who kind of deep dive, but I'm comfortable giving the bigger picture.

Aishwarya  53:54

Okay, thanks. Are you currently writing something? You're writing your next book?

53:59

Yeah, so I'm actually ideating how to write a book on on my journey, as consume or as consumed the bookstores, I'm thinking of that, but I'm also writing a book on climate fiction, which is something which is very close to my heart. And so these are an hour got a lot of book projects in different stages of ideation. And a lot of them actually started the pre pandemic and during the pandemic. So if you see my files out here, you will see at least 15 1515 books, different ideas, and I just need to say I've been actually telling myself for the past few weeks that now I need to file in the last year and a half has been very, very hectic in setting up and operationalizing the stores, I need to now take a little kind of step back and start giving more time to my own own writing. And while systems keep you know Oh, make sure the systems are running the stores.

Aishwarya  55:04

Make sense? You want to go back to the love? Yeah. Writing and write books? Absolutely. What do you as a reader like to do? Oh, very

55:13

clearly, I enjoy fiction.

Aishwarya  55:16

Yes. In specific fiction,

55:19

while I like all kinds of fiction, but I think I particularly like fiction, which are more human stories, right? I, I've never really read science fiction for that matter. For example, I, while I read enough crime fiction, I'm not particularly drawn to picking up those books, but stories about humans human relationships, where we go down to, like, kind of call it the first principles of our existence. So which means a story written could be could have been written this year, or could have written 100 years ago. But as human beings are human stories, right? They, they stay true for forever. Yeah, right there, the settings might be different, right? The characters 100 years ago might be on horseback. And today, they might be on a Harley Davidson. But within as human beings, they're still the same.

Aishwarya  56:15

Yeah. Yeah. Is there a book that came out maybe this year that you think is, you know, underappreciated that you think readers should read? In India? Um,

56:27

I'm not sure I can answer that. And one thing that I don't I never kind of talk about our, you know, too much of literary stuff. I don't have any literary as I don't, you know, say, oh, you know, read this and read that, or, you know, I did this. So, I avoid questions, you know, unless something very, very specific comes to my mind. Right. So I don't think, again, when I pick up books, very often, I don't even look at the timeline. I don't even see when they were published.

Aishwarya  56:58

Okay, can I ask you? What are you reading right now?

57:02

I'm just going to start reading a yellow face today. And yes, today, and

Aishwarya  57:07

it is because so many people have been reading it I've been saying so much about.

57:12

And just day before yesterday night, I finished Rules of Civility. So and so I didn't want to start a book the set next day itself. I'm letting that I'm soaking that book in because I love the book. So much processing. Yeah, but I need to I'm gonna start reading yesterday.

Aishwarya  57:29

Okay. Yeah. What do you think is the future of bookstores in India? Like, what do you think is going to happen? Say, five years down the line? I think

57:40

I don't know what's gonna happen in five years. content will be there. We might have five stores, we might have 50 stores that I don't know. Right? They're gonna be certain bookstores, which have stood the test of time have been there for decades, and they will stay because of the locations they are in the way they run the business, the way they have that captive audience that's going to stay, but upstarts I'm not sure. Right? And I think they will do, there is room for many, many, many more bookstores to come up, right? 1000s of bookstores can come up in India without affecting the sales of the existing bookstores. But I think, as a society, at large, and as individuals as as entrepreneurs, we all need to see how do we make these bookstores kind of destinations for society to kind of congregate we need we need to do that. And for that we need to popularize reading people who are influencers. When I say influencers, I'm talking about well known authors, even well known personalities, who are not necessarily authors themselves, but they read books, they need to go and start talking about the value of reading what they're reading, how are they enjoying books, stuff like that? Right? If you have the icons of today, whether they are film stars, their models, their cricket, Star Sports style, if they talking about hey, you know, I'm reading this book today, even political leaders, popular political leaders, right? If they say I'm reading this book, or I'm reading books, in general, a lot more people are going to want to kind of read books themselves, right. So, so we need to have these conversations in the public domain that hey, books are vital to us. Right? So both as forms of entertainment, and also as forms of personal development. Right. So and that happens when they can be like 100 bookstores in Delhi, and they will not feel any competitive pressure because there'll be enough of a market for all of us.

Aishwarya  59:42

Yeah, and I think yes, reading books and also discussing books, right. Like, what did you think about this? What did I think about this? I think so much of this that happens around movies, right? I mean, Barbie and Oppenheimer, like fully versed in the whole like bobbin you know, Um, marketing sort of frenzy, it but you know, thinking of books like that where it's like people are, you know, reading the book and then kind of discussing it and having a lot more discourse around what did you think and these were, you know, the parts I liked or didn't like, obviously this has been about books and book reviews, but I think it is still a little siloed. Yes, I think normalizing those kinds of discussions as everyday conversations, I think would also be great in terms of Absolutely. People sort of talking about books overall, I have one last question for you. What is your advice for people who want to say enter the publishing industry today? You know, they want to work with books, they love books, and they're trying to figure out what the our niche or their space within the industry would be?

1:00:48

I think, very importantly, you have to set the bar very, very high. Right, you want to be the enthusiasm is fine. The commitment is fine, right? You've got the right. Training, you've got the right college, you've got the right training, you've got the right apprenticeship, everything. But the thing is, like I said earlier, the benchmark is the global is the global best. Right? And if you can't raise yourself to that level, right, then, then it's a lost cause. And as as, and that's one thing in India that we need to kind of keep reminding ourselves again, and again and again, that there is nothing that that you know, you cannot compromise the pursuit of excellence. Right. So just because I because I see so much stuff coming out, not just within the books industry, but across industries across sectors, right, which is not even close to the global best. Right? But we need to like you want to, you want to write books, you want to be a publisher, you want to be an editor, right? Go and do whatever it requires to get the best books out, and then have the will and the resources to also market them. Well. Otherwise, don't do this.

Aishwarya  1:02:12

Yeah, like compete with the top international. So the publishers or the professionals or whatever, instead of being like, Okay, this is what is happening in India, and I just need to be the big fish in this model.

1:02:26

Yeah. And then 10s of 1000s of books are getting published in India, currently, right? They're going to all these self publishing platforms, they're going to platforms, which basically charge you to publish our books. But the quality, unfortunately, is so disappointing. Right, then why why are we doing this? Right, right, from the cover design to the text inside of the way it's edited? Why would you know beyond a vanity project, why would you do why would you publish a book?

Aishwarya  1:02:53

That's very interesting, because you have also, I mean, technically self published a lot of your books right? Under the consume. Yeah. But you didn't go the traditional route with them.

1:03:03

So the biggest thing is, I had that little bit of self confidence, because I have a grounding in this area in this area. Right, in terms of writing and editing and all I have a grounding, right. But most people who are first time authors, right, they're coming from diverse backgrounds.

Aishwarya  1:03:20

Yeah. And again, it's that quality, right? They don't know. Okay, okay. Yeah, even translate publishing, it needs to have this absolutely is the quality that literally the material and the paper and the book should have this is the quality that the writing should have the cover art should yeah.

1:03:34

So when I wrote my books, I invested in good designers, I invested in good editors, I invested in good printing. So I did all that. But but one, because like I said, because I have a background, even if not traditionally, book publishing, but at least in content, right. So unless you have that background, and even now I feel that I have many, many, many more miles to go in terms of the quality that I put out there. Right. So yeah, so I think my my advice is, it's, it's a great and an important space to be in, but really raise the bar.

Aishwarya  1:04:14

Yeah. I think that's good advice. I definitely agree with you. 100%. And thank you so much for coming about books and everything and everything consumers doing and I look forward to see what you're gonna do next. Whether you stay at five whether you have 100 stores, whether you come to home buy, which definitely I'm looking forward to. So thank you so much for

1:04:41

coming. At least for timing you can come to Delhi and visit us.

Aishwarya  1:04:46

Yeah, when I come to Delhi, I will come to one of the console stores. I will ask you which one

1:04:52

dun dun Yeah. All right. Thank you for having me. Oh,

Aishwarya  1:04:57

I hope you enjoyed this episode of The whoo People. I'm Ashley as our Baker, I'm a writer, book editor and Podcast Producer. If you have any specific topics that you think I should cover, or if you have certain people in mind that you really, really think I should speak to, then definitely reach out to me at Aishwarya at bound india.com. And if you want to know anything about book editing about bounce book services, or how you can grow your brand as an author, then you can definitely reach out to me for that as well. In the meantime, keep creating, keep writing and keep being the book people