Aishwarya speaks with Andrew James, founder of UK-based Frog Literary Agency, about the need to focus on representing authors from the LGBTQIA+ community.
How does James choose who to represent? Can literary agencies boost access to the publishing world? What kind of queer books are we seeing in the UK vs India? How can editors and agents establish their expertise in niche categories?
Andrew James has over 12 years of experience working in publishing as a commissioning editor across trade, professional and academic. He founded Frog Literary Agency in 2023 - the UK's first literary agency solely dedicated to representing LGBTQIA+ writers and creators. Frog’s mission is to revolutionise queer writing and champion queer representation in mainstream publishing. Although Frog only represents queer writers, an author’s work does not need to have a queer focus.
Aishwarya Javalgekar is a writer, book editor and podcast producer. As the Head of Originals she specializes in creating stellar content across formats - books, podcasts, newsletters, etc. She is a member of WICCI - Print Media and previous experience in Zubaan Books and Simon and Schuster Canada.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aishwaryajavalgekar/
Email: aishwarya@boundindia.com
Topmate: https://topmate.io/aishwaryajavalgekar
Brought to you by Bound, a company that helps you grow through stories.
Website: https://boundindia.com/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundindia/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/boundindia/
Twitter - https://twitter.com/boundindia
Produced by Aishwarya Jawalgekar
Edit by Kshitij Jadhav
Aishwarya speaks with Andrew James, founder of UK-based Frog Literary Agency, about the need to focus on representing authors from the LGBTQIA+ community.
How does James choose who to represent? Can literary agencies boost access to the publishing world? What kind of queer books are we seeing in the UK vs India? How can editors and agents establish their expertise in niche categories?
Andrew James has over 12 years of experience working in publishing as a commissioning editor across trade, professional and academic. He founded Frog Literary Agency in 2023 - the UK's first literary agency solely dedicated to representing LGBTQIA+ writers and creators. Frog’s mission is to revolutionise queer writing and champion queer representation in mainstream publishing. Although Frog only represents queer writers, an author’s work does not need to have a queer focus.
Aishwarya Javalgekar is a writer, book editor and podcast producer. As the Head of Originals she specializes in creating stellar content across formats - books, podcasts, newsletters, etc. She is a member of WICCI - Print Media and previous experience in Zubaan Books and Simon and Schuster Canada.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aishwaryajavalgekar/
Email: aishwarya@boundindia.com
Topmate: https://topmate.io/aishwaryajavalgekar
Brought to you by Bound, a company that helps you grow through stories.
Website: https://boundindia.com/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/boundindia/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/boundindia/
Twitter - https://twitter.com/boundindia
Produced by Aishwarya Jawalgekar
Edit by Kshitij Jadhav
00:00
getting published? Yes, obviously, it is your kind of end goal. But you can be published badly, like by someone who doesn't quite get you or it doesn't quite work out. And you know, would you rather be published by Penguin that it maybe didn't quite work out or your published by an independent who really looked after you, and they were definitely the right publisher for you. And it's like, you've just produced a much stronger publication, you know, these are things to think about as well, so
00:32
bound
00:41
Welcome to another episode of The BookPeople, where I demystify India's publishing and media industries, and bring out the biggest opportunities and challenges for writers and creative professionals in India today. And today, I'm talking to Andrew James. So he has been an editor for many years, and after building his own list, especially in books about LGBTQ themes, and about disability, he has gone and started his own literary agency, this video. So in 2023, he has started frog literary agency, which is specifically focusing on representing LGBTQIA authors. So I talked to Andrew about why he felt the need to start his own thing, what does queer representation in books look like in the UK versus in India today, and what more needs to be done in terms of representation, in order to make sure that we cover all kinds of themes, and in order to make sure that the books being published in India, in UK and all over the world, are truly, truly diverse and inclusive today? So let's dive in. Hi, Andrew, welcome to the book, Pete.
01:56
Nice to be here.
01:58
So nice to have you here. And
02:01
like I told you, you know, basically, I came across your profile on LinkedIn. And I saw that, you know, you've created a literary agency, specifically focusing on, you know, writers and creators of LGBTQ sort of identities, right. And
02:19
one that was very exciting to me. But I also realized that this is the first of its kind agency in the UK. And I'm not sure something like this even exists in India right now. Like, I've seen a lot of agencies or organizations which are, were friendly, or, you know, diversity friendly or inclusive, where they say, Hey, we're looking for different kinds of narratives or underrepresented narratives, marginalize narratives, but not something that's specifically focusing on that. So I think for me, that was sort of, you know, the biggest appeal of why I wanted to speak to you. And I realized that you start the literally this year in 2023.
03:01
Yeah, like a couple of months ago.
03:04
So congratulations on that.
03:08
I just wanted to know how you came up with this idea. You know, like, why, what was that moment where you felt that this is something that needs to exist, and that you need to sort of be the person making it happen? Well, so in my previous role, where I was an editor, I established this list of books, it was predominantly on gender identity to start off with, but then it kind of expanded. And we kind of moved into like sexuality. And it was just kind of LGBTQ plus in general. And I worked, the majority of the authors I worked with were themselves queer. And that was really important to us that that kind of own voices, publishing, and for me, like queer representation, and publishing is also really important. So in that role, I really got to kind of focus on that, which I really enjoyed. But then I kind of left that role just took some time out. And then when I was like, I do want to kind of go back into publishing, but I didn't know whether I wanted to go back into being an editor. Again, I've been an editor for like 12 or 13 years now. But I wanted to do something that was enhancing and improving kind of queer representation. And in publishing, a lot of the time publishers will only work with agents. So agents are very important in that kind of journey of a book getting published there in a way, they're kind of like the gatekeepers, who are then giving the books to the publishing houses. So I thought, if they're at that kind of the beginning of the journey, and they have a lot of power, in terms of kind of like, who was being published and the kind of representation in the industry, I wondered whether it actually that would be a really good place to start and kind of focus on queer representation to kind of help improve it further down the line, as it were, and you know, I've never been an agent before.
05:00
or, and it's something I'm learning. But there's still the same kind of skills about, it's about finding those people, those voices, those stories. So that's that's kind of where it came from, really. And I didn't want to just be an agent who, as you say, is kind of queer friendly. They exist. And as you know, there are other agencies out there, like, the good literary agency, for example, is a diverse agency, but they take on, they're not just quit a focus as it were. So felt like with this agency, that could be our niche. And we will just focus on queer representation.
05:35
In terms of authors, the content itself that what they're writing on doesn't need to be clear. And I just thought that would be a really great way to kind of be avoid, it would be a voice for like, LGBTQ plus authors really be a place for them to come to in a hub. And yeah, so there wasn't kind of like a light bulb moment, but it was just sort of my kind of personal and sort of professional passions coming together. Yeah. And you know, what you said about literary agents being gatekeepers is so true in some way, because, obviously, you know, we have these conversations where publishers and editors are kind of saying that they want to have, you know, they want to publish more queer narratives, or they want to publish more of these, you know, underrepresented narratives. But there is still that sort of distance between, you know, the authors that are writing these books, but how do these books reach publishers in the first place? And in the UK? is publishing extremely reliant on agents in the sense that do most publishers only read manuscripts that have agents? Or do they also look at, you know,
06:46
like milestones that are not basically represented by any kind of Asians?
06:52
I think it's mainly the kind of bigger publishers who said in the UK, you have like the big five at the kind of referred to like, and they definitely don't really work with unsolicited.
07:06
And then other publishers who maybe were independent or better, who also bigger say, like Faber and Faber or Granta? Again, I don't think they really worked with unsolicited in, there's a lot of independent publishers who do take unsolicited, but obviously, they're kind of inundated, I assume. And they're only going to be able to take so much on the bigger publishers obviously have lots of imprints, so there's more kind of opportunities. So having an agent doesn't necessarily, like mean you will get published, it just makes it a lot easier, because you can kind of get to those publishers who otherwise you wouldn't be able to reach. Yeah, sure. And, you know, you also mentioned that, obviously, previously, you worked as an editor. And there are a lot of similarities between the role of a literary agent and an editor, you know, in terms of finding those sorts of manuscripts and sort of searching for the potential rate and being able to identify the good ones. But I just want to know, so far in your journey, has there been things that you have now done as an agent that you didn't expect, would be a part of your journey now, or things that are so completely different from what your role was previously, that that has kind of been sort of a learning experience for you as a professional, I think one difference is more that.
08:32
It's almost like the your clients are, they're almost more like friends. Not that I'm saying that authors I had in the past aren't friends, because I was really close with some of them. But I think the kind of contract between you and an author is slightly different when you're an editor, because you've kind of got there, it's almost like you're looking after their baby and aware that you're kind of taking it through this process. And you are, in a way a sort of service to that person. So you do have this kind of strange relationship where you kind of friend to them, and you kind of like really support them. But then obviously, you need to kind of be like, Oh, but I think you should do this and do that. And so sometimes there can be a little bit where you're kind of rubbing up against each other. And you know, the book might not do that well. And then it kind of could be a bit of a tense point between you. Whereas if an agent, like in a way, I mean, at the end of the day, an agent only gets paid by how good the book is, right? So they need to at the very beginning, they're always like, we have to make this but work, they're really in your corner fighting your corner. You're it's a much closer sort of relationship in a way like I feel there's that bond, because you're kind of both in the same sort of core you're both trying to like make this baby successful. Not that an editor is it, but if you know what I mean, it's got a more sort of personal edge to it. So I do you feel that that's a little bit different. And it's which is really nice, because that relationship is kind of stronger, and it's on the same sort of kind of footing initially, which I quite like because and especially that within
10:00
narratively, at the beginning of that relationship, sometimes you know, you have to go through negotiations with the author, or not that they're kind of difficult. But obviously, sometimes things can come up, which can maybe not upset the author, but they might be a little bit like, oh, I would have liked this or would have liked that. But you know, maybe just because of getting the book published, the publishers kind of pushed back on some things. So you know, already, that relationship can be a little bit more strained. But as I think we've been agent, it's not so much like that. So that's something I've definitely enjoyed more, but I hadn't realized would be so kind of, yeah, different, I guess. Yeah, this as an agent, you're sort of in their corner, right from the beginning, right. And the relationship is, with the author first, and then with the manuscript, or the book, which is this baby in progress. But I guess, as an editor, by the time you sort of get in touch with the author, the baby already exists, you know, and waving sort of
10:59
central point of the focus of the relationship between you and the author, rather than, you know, just a more, I guess, interpersonal direct. Yeah, and you want to as an agent, you want the author to be happier, you want to make sure that they're kind of making the right decisions and going in the right direction with the writing.
11:21
And publisher might be more thinking about like the brand, as it were, which is a little bit removed from the author and an agent or to like, if someone submits something, like a second book, and it's totally different than their first book, and would be really not on brand, you might be a bit of like, oh, is this the best way to go. But at the end of the day, like, they need to be happy doing what they want to do. Whereas the publisher can be a bit more like, this is not on brand, we want to do this with you. And if you're not kind of on board with that, then there's kind of that relationship is gonna kind of stop in a ways that we're, though that's yeah, that's, I kind of see that there's that difference quite strongly now. Yeah. Now, this is very fascinating for me personally, because when I was sort of studying publishing, so I did a publishing course in Canada, and Humber College before sort of coming back to India. And at that point, you know, I, so I always had this thing of I want to work with books, but as an editor, right, because that's sort of the first thing that you think of, you know, I write I want to work with books editor is the way to go. And then I was always torn between sort of becoming an editor or becoming a literary agent, because I found both of them so fascinating, which is why I think, you know, I have so many questions for you, because you are now entering from one world as
12:41
which is great. I also am very curious, why the name from why from literary agency.
12:52
There wasn't actually that much thought behind it, although I say that, and then I go on to say why I called it that. But like, I wasn't like, I have to call it that. And it wasn't a kind of like a moment again, of inspiration. But for me,
13:05
it was because it's a queer agency. I wanted the name to be really inclusive. And I also wanted the agency to be doing something quite different. So I didn't want it to sound like every other agency, which is often like, letters leaner, like a ad James and associates or something like that sounds more like lawyers to me when accountancy firm, but I think a lot of them they know, they're just named after maybe the people who established it. But I didn't want to kind of name it after myself. I wanted it to be more like, inclusive as it were. And then I also was like I want it has to be a name that's not kind of suggestive in any way, or like gender and sexuality. Obviously, there's lots of kind of, it can be an area that kind of causes attimo issues or tensions or whatever it can be fraught with those kinds of things. And language is really important that I had to find a word or something that was kind of quite innocuous in a way. And I felt like fog was kind of like that they're quite like almost gender neutral in a Word where they're quite a neutral sort of creatures, and they're just a bit unassuming. And I just felt like that would if I wanted something was that I could use and refer to it as like as a frog frog or it had like that kind of almost like community feel around it. And you can talk about it in a kind of separate way. Whereas I think if it was just named after me, it would just, you know, like, James literary agency or whatever, it just doesn't have that kind of feel to it. I wanted to make it a bit more kind of approachable, I suppose. Yeah. Definitely very approachable thing.
14:41
Also, so when you were, you know, working as a commissioning editor and then editorial director at Jessica Kingsley publishers, you were also specifically working a lot with
14:53
nonfiction and more children's books is what I saw. So obviously, you know, you mentioned this just now
15:00
that, you know, in while working you were kind of building this niche in sort of gender and sexuality and LGBTQ books. So is this something that
15:11
occurred naturally in the sense that, you know, you just happen to sort of be building this list? And then you realize that this is a theme that you're kind of, or a niche that you're developing? Or is this something that, I guess was very intentional for you as a professional?
15:28
Yeah, I wouldn't say it was intentional.
15:33
No, because when I joined, Jessica Kingsley, the list didn't exist and wasn't working on it. And then we actually just came about, it's quite interesting, the origin is quite interesting. So Jessica, Kinsley is most known for publishing on autism. And
15:52
when Jessica was there, still own it, you know, the company, she noticed that a lot of her authors were transitioning or coming out as non binary.
16:04
And she felt like maybe there was some kind of overlap.
16:10
So she thought me, and at that time, this was what, like, seven years ago, though, you know, there was a trans tipping point that there was a lot kind of going on about it felt like trans people has suddenly come out of nowhere, which obviously isn't true, but everyone was gonna like talking about trans gender identity. So we started to explore whether there was some publishing around that, because the books that we publish, were always like practical and there to help people. And it just kind of started from there. And it kind of snowballed. After I started reaching out to people, they're just doing to be loads of people who are like, I have a story to tell, we need to write a book on this topic. And I suppose it felt like publishing hadn't really been in that space. And because of it, a lot of people felt like, no one wanted to publish them, they they had, they had these ideas, but they didn't know who to go to, or they just felt like maybe they'd never be published. And so when we reached out to them, suddenly, it was like opening the door, and it just kind of flooded in. And I think since then, it's really changed, you know, loads of publishers now a publishing kind of trans writers, you know, queer stories, queer voices, that kind of across publishers. Now, that has been a real shift. And it has been quite quick, because it has only really been like six years or so. And even that we're what we started off doing, the books we were doing, and the type of trans journey someone would take was very different to when I left and it was completely changed. And this kind of blurring of boundaries, and like transness and queerness had kind of come about and gender fluidity was when I first started, it felt a lot more kind of binary, like people were like, transitioning from male to female, as it were, and they were becoming a trans woman or whatever. But actually, it's not like that anymore. I think it's much more fluid. And people don't feel like they have to go down one path or the other. So it's definitely changing. It's not kind of like static as an area. That's great. You know, I was actually going to ask you what, kind of queer books or LGBTQ books exist right now, in the UK? You know, what kind of books are you seeing? Also across sort of, you know, nonfiction fiction, children's books across sort of different, maybe subjects? Or genres? Are there a lot more, you know, queer books right now? And, you know, what has that difference been like in the last six, seven years? Since you've been actively working on these books? Other than, you know, what you mentioned right now, which is the trans narratives, the narratives themselves? Right? And what sort of gets focused on? Are you seeing a lot of, you know, say, nonfiction versus memoir versus fiction? Is that is this sort of growth in representation, you know, visible in each and every category? Or is it just specific kind of books that have more visibility? Right?
18:59
I would say it's definitely growing across the board.
19:05
You know, like, there's, you know, there was a real moment where they felt like, there were loads of trans memoirs. And there's a lot of publishing, by gay people and children's books, there seems to be a lot more coming out, especially around ideas of like pride. There'll be like nonfiction kind of historical sort of publishing, but also books that are kind of more narrative.
19:28
Looking at queerness or looking at having like, gay parents or having a gay sibling. I think there's a lot more happening obviously heartstopper has been huge. Ya I think is a bit different. I think it's much further ahead than other areas and publishing.
19:45
But it's I do feel like it's definitely grown.
19:50
But I do think there's, it's quite narrow, like you get a lot of like gay writers or trans writers. I think lesbian
20:00
Um, writers lesbian stories, I do feel that there's a real gap. Like, I just don't think that community is very well served.
20:09
Which is a real shame, I think. And then other other way too, you know, I think also like, when you talk about queer publishing, like when you actually look at it, and you look at your publishing as like, is it queer? Or is it really just like a couple of letters from the community? Where are those asexual voices and pansexual demisexual, it kind of comes a little bit like a checklist, like Have we got this letter kind of thing. And it would be great to see publishers being a bit broader with their kind of understanding, I suppose of like, queerness, and just having queer books or books that aren't by like a gay man or a trans person, just and you know, I think that would be really great to see. And hopefully, that will kind of happen. But those identities still seem like they're not quite there yet.
20:57
And also, just that kind of intersectionality. Again, you kind of get put into kind of like a box. And it's sort of like, well, that book can be about the queer journey. But obviously, being gay, for example, is only one part of someone's identity. Well, what about all the other kind of parts of their identity? And I think that's where some of the really interesting publishing is happening. You know, like, what about queer working class lies, for example, like, stuff like that, I think, again, that we haven't quite got there yet. And I think you know, when you truly got the when it's like, you've got queer characters in books, but that book isn't about them wasn't about being queer. They just happened to be queer. And I think Hearthstone was quite good at was quite good at doing that. Obviously, it does focus a lot on their identities, but the most you do just have characters who just happen to be and what maybe one day is asexual, but they're a sexualities. No one really cares. It's just kind of there happening in the background. And I think that it's quite important to have because that's what really helped sort of, like normalize these sorts of identities, because it's just life there. That's also my question was coming from because, you know, I remember,
22:06
again, like being in a Toronto bookstore, and they have like a Toronto's village like, the gay district has a queer bookstore, and that had I had come across this
22:19
murder mystery, right? So it was a murder mystery, but the mystery solver happened to be a lesbian. And that was it. And to me, that was so I mean, refreshing, just because I mean, the story was not about queerness. You know, and I think that's a trope where that's, I think, where we're at in India as well. I mean, a lot of I think, mostly, you know, gay voices, or a little bit of trans voices. I think transplants is also not that much currently predominantly male gay voices, and of dominating queer narratives.
22:58
And mostly, you know, even in fiction, so even if in fiction, it's sort of just characters being represented, it's mostly male characters. And they are sexuality that's kind of being explored right now, in terms of books, lots of children's books, which is again, you know, great, because children's books sort of talking about identity. But again, the narrative is very much, I think, still
23:22
stuck on identity, and sort of the narrative of coming out, you know, that sort of trope or you know, tragic love story.
23:35
Yeah.
23:37
Yeah, I definitely think that kind of complexity to people's lives sort of missing. And it does, yeah, it ends up falling into these kinds of particular stereotypes or tropes, because they've obviously done well in the past, or, obviously, they are really important parts of someone's life coming out. But you know, not every book that features a queer person has to have some kind of coming out moment. I just don't think that's needed. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And we had a couple of books, like we had one by you know, this, quite a prominent sort of gay personality in India, by Mesa honey, he had a book on, you know, queer nests in the workspace. So what do businesses or companies need to do to be more queer, inclusive or trans? Inclusive, which I think was an interesting book, then we have had a couple of sort of self self help dating guides, which are again queer. So I think that is a good space that queer narratives are getting into, but mostly, it's just I think, fiction or a couple of characters or you know, side characters. So I think you know, especially because India in terms of like Indian culture, can be a little more conservative as well, in terms of, you know, its laws or also in terms of sort of more societal taboos when it comes to queerness.
25:00
So I think these books, to some extent, are at least addressing it, or at least, now we have a lot of readership of queer books not being slotted as something that's only for queer leaders, but as something that people are reading as well. And we're also seeing a lot of,
25:18
because India has a lot of languages. So we're also seeing a lot of, you know, books in multiple sort of local languages, also having a lot of who your narratives, which then again, get translated into English. And so that's also a very interesting phenomenon to see in Indian side is going to second son.
25:39
I wanted to ask you so far in your, you know, commissioning sort of journey, what are the kinds of obstacles that you have noticed, or come across when it comes to career narratives being commissioned?
25:54
I think a big obstacle would always be that they seem to niche.
25:59
Because it's like, yeah, and you can kind of get like a niche within a niche, right? Like I published a book on, like bisexual men, for example, which seems like already, like bisexuality is one that Asian men is another niche.
26:15
And so it's sort of like trying to when you're kind of pitching a book like that to a publishing team, you kind of got to kind of work extra hard and convince them that yes, this book is really needed.
26:27
But, you know, they might be seeing top level sort of like, well, who's the market? How big is this market? Who's really going to read it? You know, if it's just bisexual men, for example, is that really a big enough market? And so that, that I think that's always a problem. But if you always have that kind of mindset, then I think you're just kind of reducing the pool of publishing to just kind of, like, that's that kind of minority of people who identify as the biggest kind of minority, if that makes sense. But like, the majority majority within
27:00
which I, you know, I think that you're missing, then it's always going to stay small. And like, as in publishing those, it's not going to be very diverse in that way, which I think that's a real shame. And you have to take a risk sometimes and publish for what you think might not be the biggest market because you never know, like, it might seem small. But if that market doesn't have a lot of literature, then a book comes out, then in my eyes, they're all going to get hit by it. But you know, it's going to be really like, Oh, finally, we've got a book that we can read. This is the only book in that specific niche market, you know, which is yeah, good to sort of within that very small thing, this book is
27:43
that market ascension, because we, we didn't do that we started doing some publishers on asexuality. And I think initially, we were a bit like, is this?
27:54
What is the market look like? And the first bit we did was just like, it just sold so well. And I was like I would this book is just brilliant, which obviously it was, but I mean, like, it's just a book that everyone loves? Or actually, it's because No, there is this huge, like untapped market that isn't really being served at the moment. And they're getting literature. And they're all like jumping at the chance to read it. Because there's nothing else to read, if that makes sense. And so we started to kind of do more in that area. And like they all did, I think they all did quite well, I've left now but they you know, there seems to be a lot of interest in them. It's almost in a way that you're kind of creating a market, if that makes sense. Like if those books don't exist.
28:39
That market is kind of like not there. So you can either come from the perspective where there is no market, or you can come from the perspective of like, well, dark people, maybe we need to be the ones who kind of create that kind of interest. And that's kind of one way of doing it.
28:54
Yeah. And I also like what you said, because I saw that, you know, this is also something that you've put on your website. And this is kind of your mandate, also for the agency where you're, you know, when you're saying you're an agency, you're saying that you are representing LGBTQ authors and creators, but the books or the narratives themselves don't need to be cured as such, specifically, which, you know, again, like we discussed, is so important, because obviously queer people can have other things happening in their lives. And you know, you can have queer people in romances, but also like thrillers or horror, or you know, any sort of other kind of subjects or genres that exist, right. But in terms of your mandate, when you're kind of getting these submissions in, how do you plan to maintain that balance of
29:52
I guess what I'm asking you is, you know, when you look at a book and you're like, this book is so clear, it's clear in every way versus this book.
30:00
is
30:02
a little quicker, but has other things happening. And do you think that that is somehow going to impact? The how you how you build your list or your sort of catalog in a way is that mean? Yeah, I kind of wanted to keep it fairly
30:19
open and broads.
30:23
Obviously, we kind of want to be known as like a destination as it were for like queer writers. So obviously, in a way you want this content to also be queer. But then
30:35
a lot of, you know, queer writers, I don't feel like they should be pigeonholed into only writing about that. And it might be that they write something that just isn't very queer.
30:46
But it is just really well written. And it's just really good. And they've come to me because they're a career writer, and their their content isn't, but they still want that kind of support of queer agency, as it were to kind of represent them. So I kind of wanted to keep the agency fairly kind of broad. And, you know, on one side, we'll have these really queer books. But the other side, maybe we'll have some less quit stuff for the office still queer, but it's just kind of like, just kind of makes our portfolio a bit more diverse and kind of keeping ourselves open to kind of writers and allowing them to buy kind of what they want, I suppose like, it might be that you have one writer who
31:28
one of their books is really queer, but then maybe they want to do something else. Well, it's not. And they'd kind of got that opportunity to be kind of more fluid, as it were, I think that's quite important. Yeah. So yeah.
31:41
Yeah, that makes sense. So since you open the agency, what kind of submissions have you been getting? And you know, how many submissions are you getting right now?
31:51
I think I've had like, I should look at my spreadsheet, but I'd like it maybe over 400, they mean, nearly like 500. And so it was quite a lot
32:01
when it first opened. And I would say the biggest area is definitely like why, unlike sci fi and fantasy, there's definitely the queer community obviously really sort of goes for that in terms of their interests in writing. So I've got a lot in that kind of arena. And then more like kind of commercial sort of romance or fiction is really strong. And that's come through quite a lot as well.
32:30
And then I guess the next one would be sort of like literary fiction would be the next kind of big area that's come through.
32:38
Now, what about nonfiction? Are you seeing a lot of, I actually haven't had loads of unsolicited nonfiction, which is weird for me, because I've always only worked in nonfiction. So I've kind of definitely had to shift
32:53
towards fiction but and then the nonfiction that we do have is usually authors that I knew previously, or people that I've kind of reached out myself, because that's kind of what I used to do in my last role. So it's a bit more kind of focused.
33:09
And I think nonfiction allows for that kind of flexibility. Because you can approach someone and be like, have you kind of thought about writing in this area, or I might have an idea of pitch to them. And they only kind of have to come up with like a proposal as it were maybe a couple of sample chapters, it doesn't have to kind of be ready. Whereas a fiction, you always need that kind of manuscript to be submitted. So it's a little bit different intensive trying to get people to write, because that's a big ask, can you please write it?
33:40
Yeah.
33:42
Yeah. Um, is it just you right now? Do you have a team currently working at the agency? It's just me at the moment,
33:51
and will likely be just me. I mean, it would be great to have someone to help me with the reading.
33:57
Which I don't think I was expecting. But and also, sometimes it would be nice just to have someone else's like input on a project. Because it's just you and you know, this is a very kind of subjective industry. But I think sometimes you're a bit like, is this good?
34:15
You know, you feel like you should know you're the agent. But you know, sometimes because it is so subjective. Yeah. I also have, I mean, I guess this is more of a
34:27
personal question, as in you know, about you as a person, but this is something that I, at times, worry about quite a bit, which is why I thought I should ask this question to you. So do you ever worry about, you know, being put in a particular box, just like, you know, we talk about authors being put in a box where it's like, okay, you write one queer book, and it's like, you're the coil or you are openly queer. So it's like you're the queer author and you're only supposed to write queer books. Do you ever feel
35:00
I, or are worried about or have faced an incident where you feel like you have been put in a box because you have developed this niche. And that, you know, it sort of impacts your journey within the industry as such, because like you become the queer editor, or you know, something like that.
35:26
Because that's always been something that I have been worried about in sort of my professional journey, because I don't also always sort of talk openly about queerness, like my queerness, specifically, or, you know,
35:43
I'm very actively avoiding putting myself into a niche, because I don't want to kind of be limited by a specific identity. So is that something that you've ever worried about? Or, you know, faced in any way?
36:00
I don't think so.
36:02
I suppose, because I've actively chosen to go down this route. So at the moment, I don't feel like.
36:09
And I think also, well, I like where I used to work,
36:15
I there was always the opportunity to sign books in other areas, like I used to work across the different subject areas anyway, it was only recently in the last couple of years that it became more defined. But if I saw a book or I was like, Oh, I think we should probably like I was still heavily involved with the autism list, for example, like, I never felt like I could not work on it. So I've not felt boxed in. And I sort of feel like the skills you have anyway, are quite transferable as an editor or whatever kind of role you work in. And if you have kind of carved out a niche, I think that's only kind of kind of another string to your bow, is it work because it can help you to kind of reach a particular community that maybe they aren't able to reach? So I think it's kind of quite empowering and a really good thing.
37:07
And
37:09
I yeah, I don't, I think I feel like they've come boxed in this kind of comes more from the sort of type of publishing rather than on the topic, if that makes sense. Like, I think it can be harder to kind of go from say, being an academic in an academic publisher to than a trade publisher, or into children's, I think that there's kind of, I think you can I mean, I've done it, you can do it, and then people do it.
37:38
But there's different kind of, I think publishers or people who are hiring might see you as being sort of trapped in a kind of area. And they do work and function differently. You know, there's different things you need to know about, you know, an academic publishing, you know, someone in trade publishing might have no clue what open access is, or like what the ref is, and they are important things to know about. But someone in academic publishing, will likely have no experience working with agents, you know, there's lots of different things, but there's no reason. I mean, you can you can learn them. I'm not difficult. But I think that's where the kind of I would, I felt like that I have felt like boxed in at times in trying to get into different parts of the industry. There are different types of books. I think that's where the kind of problem comes. But as I said, I think as long as you've kind of got that kind of mind that works in particular way you can, it's transferable. I don't think you can't work in a particular part of the industry, just because you are an academic. That makes sense. Yeah.
38:39
So how did you move from academic to trade?
38:44
I think I was fortunate. But I think there's Jessica Kinsey is a sort of hybrid, academic, educational, professional publisher. So the jump wasn't so big, as it were, I did have to learn a lot. It was very different way of working. But once you start, once you've gone through the process of the couple of books, you kind of pick it up. And actually, as it's the same, you're kind of applying the same sort of skills. So it's not too difficult. I just think it's that kind of initial change.
39:17
That can be a bit tricky. But I think as long as you can show that you've applied, you can apply what you've learned to this kind of different area, I think, yeah. And then I kind of moved into trade, the stuff just on the list, and just who the people I was working with, I guess I sort of learned on the job as as it were like with my authors and kind of with the other kind of people around me in the team. And I wouldn't say I like was given really clear instructions. I kind of just did what I thought was best
39:48
kind of hope it works in that way. But I think I do think a lot of the time it's have to kind of go with your sort of like gut instinct, which is a terrible thing to say because you can't teach anyone what that is. But like I think you just sort of know
40:00
inherently like is this isn't quite right, or it needs to kind of go in this way. And again, it is subjective. It is a subjective industry, how I edit and work on the book will definitely be different how to someone else works and edits a book. And I think having a mindset, we're like, oh, how should this go, there must be a particular way that needs to be written or done is perhaps not the best way of doing it. Because there isn't any one way of doing it. It's really just how, like, what your vision is for a guest and how you work with the author and what the publishing division is for it. And that kind of makes and breaks a book, I suppose.
40:35
Yeah. You've also done a lot of authenticity reading, right, or sensitivity reading? So, again, I think the question is, you know, what are some common sort of mistakes or faux pas that you see writers use a lot that they should probably avoid?
40:59
And I think the bigger question is, you know, because I think that language is changing every day. And what is appropriate language and what is not appropriate language keeps changing every day, which is so difficult for books, right? Because once a book is out, it's out. And then, you know, five years down the line language has changed the way we refer to things as changed. And how do authors kind of deal with that? Because I think
41:28
that has sort of become an important thing when it comes to sensitivity reading, because I think a lot of people just don't know what the right language is, to say certain things, if that makes sense.
41:44
Yeah, I think some of that we used to do was, we'd have like a kind of little note at the beginning of the book, that would sometimes say that the author is using these words referring to themselves in this way, because that's how they want to be referred to how they identify. Or, for example, we sometimes published books by like parents or trans children, and they would refer to their child with the wrong pronouns, or with their, like, dead name. And, you know, some readers could be like, That's not okay. But for the parent, that's, that was their relationship with their child. And I don't think as a publisher, we are there to be like, No, you cannot talk about your child and that way. But I think as long as the author is, knows within themselves, how they want to be spoken about or how they're going to talk about certain things, and a clear to the reader about that. I think, as a reader, you have to accept that not in a way that's like, if they're saying stuff that's wrong, like there's different than,
42:43
I don't mean, like that, that's obviously not excusable, but I think they, as long as they're competent in what they're saying, and they've made it clear to the reader, I think that's fine. For example, some people want to refer to themselves as like transsexual, whereas I was always against using that word because of that history around it. But if someone wants to identify that I can't step in and say no, that's just not how editors should be working with their kind of authors. So I think it's about making it clear, to kind of, yeah, the readers like, how that person wants, the words they want to use. And I also think we need to give publishers a bit of a break sometimes, like, yeah, they can't keep changing in their books, because like, things do change. And there's obviously a point where you do have to step in, if there's language that's very, like, homophobic or racist, and is now not okay. But it's still in books. Now I read something the other day, it was only published like in 2014. And I was like, this word is not okay. And I'm actually quite surprised it's still in this book. But maybe it was okay, then or they thought it was okay. But, you know, so some things I think do need to be checked and do need to be updated. But other things, I think, because it moves so fast. What do you like to read, I am gonna have to look at my phone, when I keep track of what it looks like, always forget, really, really terrible.
44:03
So I do try to read as much kind of queer stuff as I can, because I'm really personally interested in it.
44:11
And probably quite bad in the sense that I do gravitate towards books that feature that gay characters, because that's my own identity. And I just like to read about them. But I tried to be quite like,
44:23
buried in my approach in terms of that I would read about experiences beyond my own, say, like,
44:31
personal of color. Well, I've been reading a book at the moment, which is about working class gay man, and their life is completely different to mine. So it's really interesting to kind of read that sort of story. Do you have a comfort read or a guilty read? Yeah, so I have a few authors who I'm kind of like obsessed.
44:49
With by age, you're gonna mention them because they are all really old fashioned. So I really love I did like Victorian literature at university, for example. So because of that, I really love Victorian authors.
45:00
So like Henry James is like my favorite writer, who obviously a lot of people probably find really tired and hard work, but I've just really loved his writing. And I love Iris Murdoch, who actually is a very, if you've never read them, they will kind of pioneer for like queer writing in the sense that they have queer characters in their books. I mean, she was writing from like, the 40s onwards, I think so, you know, still illegal to be gay, for example, but she has gay characters in her books. And again, it's not about them being gay, which I think is actually why she's so kind of ahead of her time. It's actually just so Oh, there just happens to be a gay couple in this book. And she writes about them very, like tenderly and very kind of, you know, she's, well, I guess she was kind of cute. And, but you know, they're just very believable characters. And I think they're really, really, really well done. And it's just nice to read that. And I think I've read all her books, and I was like, younger, and I just, she's a real comfort read for me. And then at the opposite end of the spectrum I really love like Alice Monroe, because he likes lots about women. I don't think anything queer ever happens in her books. Not I can imagine. But I just really love her voice. I think she writes beautifully. And I really love that kind of short story writing that she does.
46:14
Yeah, nice. Have you ever considered writing a book yourself? Is that something you want to do? Yes, yes, I write myself.
46:24
Kind of like queer again, from a kind of queer perspective.
46:29
The stuff I write tends to be tapping into that I did like queer representation as well. So it's obviously
46:35
very important to me. So yeah, and I just find it really interesting, kind of more like analyte, not analyzing cribs, mentation, but kind of playing with that kind of idea.
46:44
Because I think, again, that kind of is sort of sometimes missing a bit from publishing, like, kind of exploring queer representation of what that looks like, in terms of kind of literature in the past and kind of, like lost voices. I think it's an interesting kind of area. Yeah, I think we look at it. There's a lot of critique of queer representation. And I think movies are like on the screen. We don't want to be shows and movies a lot. But I don't see that much of critique in terms of literature, especially, I think.
47:16
Older literature as well. Yeah, sort of kind of like missing in a way like, yeah, really, there's so much.
47:25
Like, if it is it kind of comes from that sort of, like, academic queer theory angle where we're trying to kind of like, James gay, which I absolutely hate that kind of discourse. I just don't think that's very helpful.
47:37
And I just think it's like, I just don't really know what you're trying to get from the book. By doing that. If the book isn't? I don't know. But like, personally, but then, um, yeah, it's like it was filmed. I think it was a little bit different. But yeah, I definitely think it's more kind of developed.
47:55
Yeah. So what are your plans with Prague literary agency? Like, where do you what do you see yourself doing five years down the line?
48:06
I have someone who's reaching submission.
48:12
I don't know, I don't really know. I'm just intrigued to see where it can go. Like I've taken on like 10, or writers at the moment. So I'm kind of working with them now to kind of like, pitch and I'm pitching their submissions. And we'll kind of see where they go. And then hopefully start taking on like, almost like a new cohort as well, kind of growing in that way. And you never know, you might end up taking on someone who becomes this huge bestseller. And that was obviously really changed the shape of the agency might be that we'd be able to take some people on or it might remain a kind of boutique agency, but I only have a certain number of authors, but we kind of like work really closely with them. So I'm quite kind of open to see where it goes really emphasis on taking it as it comes. But uh, yeah, I don't have any kind of huge grand plans at the moment.
49:02
And what advice if you could give one piece of advice to you know, authors or writers who are writing right now who are queer and are either writing about queerness or not writing about queerness at all? What is sort of a piece of advice you would give them about
49:19
entering the industry or trying to get published?
49:25
And it's a very big question
49:31
I think we're in terms of trying to get published maybe
49:38
I hate to say like trying to do something different cuz that's really bad advice. But it's more like Have a think about kind of like what's out there and kind of what are you what are you kind of adding to the feel like what makes you distinctive? Is that the story is that the characters is that your voice as you like, what makes you really distinctive, what's make gonna make you sort of stand out from the crowd?
50:00
Want to say where
50:01
you don't need to have this huge tick tock following to get published, which I think some people think you do, I just think you need to be really clear on yourself what you're trying to do. It's almost like having that kind of integrity as a writer and being really clear, this is what I'm trying to achieve. This is my story. This is what sits within what's published.
50:20
And I think that it's always nice, if you can kind of get that sense and Vitesse, you really know who they are and what they're trying to achieve with their book. Rather than just kind of following some other person who's published something and trying to publish the next, like the same book, as it were, I think, you know, obviously, publishing does follow trends. But it's more interesting to find the next trend, what's exciting, and never feel like who you are, or what you've written is never going to be good enough. Because as again, it is a subjective industry. And you might get rejected by hundreds of people. But then there might be one person who's like, no, actually, I think what you've written is amazing, because at the end of the day, if you submit to 100, agents, I mean, there's 7 billion people in the world, like there's only 100 agencies, there's only 100 opinions, you know, there's loads of people out there, and loads of opinions, you know, and also to step back and think about all those books, you've read that you hate it, but I loved by the industry, or books you love, but actually reviewed really badly. And you can see then actually, the kind of sort of world of publishing is very kind of subjective. And just don't be too hard on yourself, I guess. And, but doing the research, trying to find the right agent, the right publisher, that will help definitely help you. Because you're only going to get rejected by people who don't publish that kind of stuff. But you're not really appropriate to so you kind of save yourself the pain by doing a bit of research things kind of quite useful. Yeah, they're not the right fit anyway, for your work. Yeah. And that's at the end of the day, you know, you want to be working, just getting published. Yes, obviously, it is your kind of end goal. But you can be published badly, like by someone who doesn't quite get you or it doesn't quite work out. And you know, would you rather be published by Penguin that it maybe didn't quite work out, or you're published by an independent who really looked after you, and they were definitely the right publisher for you. And it's like, you've just produced a much stronger publication, you know, these are things to think about, as well. So don't get too like, carried away, I suppose by like, I think people have a very romantic view of publishing, but it is a business at the end of the day. So you kind of have to sort of weigh these two up in your in your head. Yeah. I honestly love that. You know, everyone is I think so focused on getting published. But I don't think anyone thinks about the fact that you can get published badly.
52:39
A book can be an awful experience. Yeah. And you can or someone can change your idea and be like, we'll publish you, but you have to do this. And what that is, might not be what you are, and it's that integrity side of things. And you might lose a publishing deal, but you're still you.
52:59
Yeah, or like, your vision of the book might be different from the publishers vision of the book. And then ultimately, it's that vision that gets published and then you kind of feel like
53:11
what I had in mind, things like that indefinitely happen. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
53:18
Okay, thank you so much, Andrew, for coming. Thank you for coming on the podcast talking to me about your experience. I think that you know, you've obviously jumped through a lot of different boxes and things and I'm excited to see what happens with your agency. Oh, thanks so much. Thanks for having me. It was lovely speaking.
53:41
I hope you enjoyed this episode of The bookkeeper. I'm Ashley as our Baker. I'm a writer, book editor and Podcast Producer. If you have any specific topics that you think I should cover, or if you have certain people in mind that you really, really think I should speak to, then definitely reach out to me at Aishwarya at bound india.com. And if you want to know anything about book editing about bounce book services, or how you can grow your brand as an author, then you can definitely reach out to me for that as well. In the meantime, keep creating, keep writing and keep being the book people