I Quit Cocaine After One Ayahuasca Trip | Roman’s Story

Roman spent over a decade addicted to cocaine, trying different ways to quit without success. That changed after a single ayahuasca experience.

He describes intense visions, encounters with unknown beings, and a process that felt like something inside him was being taken apart and rebuilt. When it was over, the cravings were gone.

This conversation explores addiction, psychedelics, perception, and what happens when a person experiences something they can’t fully explain—but can’t ignore either.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Boom, it just hit me. These aliens and these little kind of weird centipede creatures crawled all over me, just ripping me apart and putting me back together. Like one would run away with my ribs, and one would run back and put a new rib cage back in place after it was over. Telepathically, this alien being was like, okay, your drug addiction's on. I want you to do something for us. And then all of a sudden I got hit with this wave of sadness, this feeling of pain, all the suffering of womankind, domestic violence, trafficking. I was begging for it to stop. They were like, no, we have to see this. We want you to learn this. Like, you're a womanizer.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

This episode originally aired December 5th, 2023.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Good morning, Roman. How are you? I'm doing great, man. How are you doing? I'm doing well. So that's a pretty intense experience that you had. That was your first ayahuasca journey that that we showcased there at the beginning, right? Now I'm I'm interested to know. Um did you see that coming? Like, did you have any idea in your head that you were treating women poorly before you went into that?

SPEAKER_04 1:26

I was treating myself poorly, and then just the blast radius of everybody was getting treated poorly, and you know, it wasn't really but the uh the experience I had, like I think if I was a total model citizen, I would have had that same experience. Because I've had one where I saw all the hatred in the Middle East, you know, and where I felt the same hate, you know, and that I'm not Jewish or Arabic. I've I've I respect all people, so is it's not like it was teaching me a lesson, it was just kind of showing me a broader story about the world you can learn from in a way. So but uh yeah, I mean, I was new, I was on a you know, it was like I was poor in my relationships, but I was poor in my diet, I was poor in the amount of sleep I, you know, so it was kind of uh it was um but what I did learn from it was the struggle of women just in society beyond me, you're beyond your blast radius, yeah, exactly. So that was what was kind of neat about it. Was I was like, oh wow, you know, that's uh really like I've always known women, I think, uh suffer silently in a way that we don't understand, just being that compassionate and that like birthgivers, yeah, I think you know that's gotta be.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

I mean, that is that is something if you want to think about that in itself. I mean, the only portal where the the spirit world can enter into our reality is through women. I know, yeah, they're very powerful, yeah, exceptional beings, you know. Yeah, yeah. So were there any of your own experiences tied into those visions and those feelings that you had during ceremony?

SPEAKER_04 3:20

Not really. Like I said, when what was happening in the vision was I could see like an Earth-like planet, the horizon of it being backlit by this demonic sort of red, and on it I could see these like tiny sort of symbolic silhouette scenarios, and you know, some of them were women treating women badly, and and and uh so I can't like I never had a moment where it's like, oh hey, there's me on there, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Like it was or who's that handsome guy, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Who's that was a woman's guy not returning phone call, you know? It wasn't like that at all, it was just seeing you know, just tons of scenarios that could potentially happen from the dawn of time till now. So I didn't really see anything that pertained specifically to my life.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

So this was just sort of like a visual aid to the feelings and emotions you were being exposed to. Totally.

SPEAKER_04 4:25

Okay, it was like uh it was like a a mixture between you know, you know, when you look at a painting, you see it all at once, the like boom, like oh there, and it's beautiful or I hate it or whatever. Yeah, whatever. Or and it was like a combination of a painting and literature, you know, like it would give you this, it was giving me this sort of thesis on female suffering as well as a visual, and you just you know the thing is like these are happening when your eyes are closed, there's no looking away.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Yeah, you know, you're just in it. Wow, that's that is an interesting thing you just said there. There is no looking away, no, and I've had my own experiences in ceremony sitting in medicine with a shaman, and and you're right, like it it's it's it's it's beautiful. And in my own experience is like I saw things that were painful, I felt things that were painful, yeah, but it would the pain was being shown to me in a way that was compassionate and in a way that was productive. Yeah, there was an intention, there wasn't just like you're gonna suffer. No, like this is what's happening, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 5:32

Like same with me when I was begging for it to stop. Yeah, there was this female voice that was like, no, no, just but she wasn't like you're gonna witness this. Yeah, no, no, there's uh you know, that I think it's Western culture when we like a lot of times when you think of a higher power or a god, there's this kind of fire and brimstone, yeah, yeah, like it's teaching you an evil, like it's teaching you a lesson, like it was more of a tough love lesson, like a punitive lesson, yeah, exactly. And I it's not like that, it's just kind of no, we're here with you, you're safe, but but this is what's real, yeah. This is what's real, so yeah, yeah, take what you want with it, you know. And it was uh, but you know, and it it it worked, you know what I mean. I haven't used the word I've like whenever I hear somebody call a woman crazy, I'm like, hey, let's just take a step back here for you know look at the big picture, yeah. A crazy woman puts her kids in the oven. They don't just because they yell, whoa, that's crazy, just because they yell at you a little bit are emotional, that's not crazy, that's part of their essence, and it's a great part. Yeah, yeah. So I don't, you know, it's it was kind of like that. I don't I don't use the word slut, like obviously other in a context like this.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

But I pick it up.

SPEAKER_04 6:54

Yeah, I don't uh I don't watch porn, I don't, you know, it's not uh I have nothing against it if you want to watch it, but yeah, you know, nobody you know for the longest time I I did like I watched porn for and not in like what I would call a problematic way.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

It was like, you know, it had without getting too graphic, it had its purpose, and when its purpose was fulfilled, I would you know get on with my day. But when I stopped doing that, my life changed and my relationship changed. Yeah, it's an amazing thing. Like how how it's way better, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So when you went into this ceremony, now were you did you go down to like did you work with a shaman, or was this something that you bought on the street and just went and tripped in the bush for a while?

SPEAKER_04 7:38

No, the first time was just here in Saskatchewan with uh we had the recorded ikeros, the songs that shaman use, and then after I did that probably two, three times, I was so intrigued I went down to Peru for six weeks.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

So you like by yourself, or did you work with someone like when you were here? And and we don't need to, I know you know, like was it with someone? Was it with someone who's experienced?

SPEAKER_04 8:03

Yeah, it was with somebody experienced within my family that kind of knew I was struggling and uh was like, oh man, it helped my uh it helped my cousin quit drinking. Yeah, yeah. I was like, hey, you gotta try this, and then uh so I did, and uh yeah, a 12-year coke addiction was broken on the spot.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

So I want to talk more about that, but before we do, like this this addiction uh 12 years is a long time. Like, so how how did the addiction get started? Was it something that you were running from? I mean, looking back now, what was it about?

SPEAKER_04 8:37

No, that uh you know, we always talk about addiction stemming from trauma. Well, I think that's true, but it's also like every little kid has had trauma in some form or another. I think there's unbearable, there's trauma and unbearable trauma, you know what I mean. I'm sure from evolution, like we've been around for 300,000 years, yeah. You know, we've all seen floods and hurricanes and you know, the elements, and we've all probably in our lineage, we've all seen saber-toothed tigers run off of their mom and whatever, you know. So, I mean, I think we're build the most beautiful context. I just I think we're we're uh hardwired to deal with trauma, but when you get into serious trauma, then maybe there's a problem. But no, I had a great child. My parents are great, I had a good childhood, you know. The most traumatic thing that happened to me was like uh playing baseball and uh a grounder skipped out of a gopher hole and hit me in the mouth, you know what I mean? Like, so I didn't really have trauma per se, but I was an artist, so any altered reality added to perception, perception. So uh I didn't you know I didn't develop a coke problem until I was in my I can't remember, mid-30s, or you know, or you know, early 30s. So it wasn't really it's just I was an artist and that's what you know, so you're you know I wouldn't say supposed to do drugs, but when you hear that's due. Yeah, when you hear of an artist doing having uh an addiction like it's almost weirder if they don't.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Exactly, you know, and and that's just my own lens on the world. I don't know if that would be like something the newspaper would publish. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

It was just uh more exploring and being willing to, you know, liking different head spaces for me, like and then uh it just sort of got away from me. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

So there was no desire growing up, like like for example, and I won't get too much into my own story, but for me, I couldn't wait to get my hands on a bottle when I was 13 years old and I blacked out, and it was like and I was off to the races then. So was there any substance use before that?

SPEAKER_04 11:12

Oh, yeah, I've been I started doing psychedelics when I was 15 and drinking, but like a normal amount. I didn't, you know, as a typical drink on the weekend kind of guy. I never had to have a belt of whiskey to get straight to go to work or in the morning or anything like that. And uh you know, I I think humans we like to feel good and we like to feel we we we like to feel okay. Yeah, yeah. Everybody wants to feel okay. For sure. And I mean, you know, it was like you remember when you were young and bulletproof, like a night of drinking was worth the hangover. And uh and you know, I I do acid or mushrooms or you know, molly or whatever, do coke and I was like, uh yeah, it it went with socializing and with with booze, but it didn't get you know, it didn't get out of hand until I was snorting at ape all by myself, you know, watching conspiracy videos, thinking like you know, that you're like, hey, this is a problem.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Yeah, you know, what the conspiracy or the coke? Yeah, both.

SPEAKER_04 12:21

I think uh I think they kind of go hand in hand. I I like I don't know if it's correlation or causation, or maybe I'm making this up, but it seems like everybody I know that's been addicted to drugs is into conspiracies for at least a little while. I don't know if it comes with a paranoia or what, or yeah, yeah, you're focusing on that so you don't have to face your own shit, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

I don't know. That's a that's a possibility. Yeah, I used to like space documentaries a lot more back in the day than I do now. Just give me something to blow my mind. That's not how bad my how my how bad my life is.

SPEAKER_04 12:57

Yeah. But I mean, I think you can find a balance because like we're all naturally curious, and we you know who wouldn't want to do a even I think even your most balanced person is gonna enjoy a substance a bit that makes you feel euphoric. It's it's not always running away from something necessarily, and that can get out of hand too. Like, so you know, it's it's uh you know, I I know that most addicts have had trauma, but I would like to see the numbers on people that had trauma that didn't become addicts. There's probably a lot of them too.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Like you said only a few moments ago. I mean, we all have trauma.

SPEAKER_04 13:41

Yeah, you know, so it's relative, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Like I mean, but you know, is it? I mean, and people escape into different things, right? Like there's you know, you can dive into your work, you can you can dive into you know different behaviors, yeah. So, and and that's the thing, it's like I you you hear people talking about um modalities of recovering, like the anonymous fellowships, like we're talking about psychedelics, we're talking about things, and and uh and some people like like for example, the the 12-step groups, there's lots of people like, oh, that's a cult, you know, and and I can't completely disagree. And and I'm saying this from the lens through the lens of a person who was helped a lot by the 12-step program. I'm not talking shit, it's a little bit culty, yeah. But but at the same time, who cares? Well, we all do things to be okay, you know. I need a meeting every day to be okay, and people get judged for oh, you need oh, that's a that's a new crutch, that's a new addiction. Meanwhile, they go to the gym every day and work out, they go do yoga every day and work out, or they go and read a book every day, like all of these different things, you know. No, I agree. Like, who cares?

SPEAKER_04 14:43

Like, you you could be you're not selling your TV to go to a meeting, yeah. So it might be a crazy. I mean, I've never heard of it. I mean, maybe yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that's true, but it's not the but no, I'm uh I'm a firm believer that psychedelics is a viable option to quit. I've never I've never been to NA or AA, but I think it's great. If it helps even one person, great, who cares? Like, I don't I don't really like this one or the other thing or people shitting on it.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Like, why can't there be both? Yeah, and why does it have to be this or that? Yeah, you know, we're and when you want to talk about oh god, now we're gonna talk about systems of care. So, like and I love doing that. Like this this whole thing, this whole hard knocks talks platform is that's what this is. This is a knowledge mobilization platform, and we we work it into stories like this and conversations like this, you know, where the way our systems are treating us is not okay. Why why is ayahuasca illegal? No, I you know, why is mushrooms uh why you know at worst case? Why is it not regulated?

SPEAKER_04 15:51

You know, well, I think it's okay. I started doing mushrooms when I was 15, and the reason I think it's illegal is when I was doing mushrooms at a young age, I was like, Oh, our system is bullshit, it's just a made-up thing, it's not necessarily it, it doesn't have to be this way. So it kind of psychedelics kind of dissolve the boundaries of what's real, if you would say. And so, what government or or group wants a bunch of citizens thinking, oh, I that's kind of bullshit. I don't, you know, like it's not healthy for the continuity of a society. You know, the same goes with uh with I believe steroids get demonized, like low-level steroids are actually fairly safe, and I don't think I think they're demonized because I don't think there is a system of government that wants a male population of jacked, confident 22-year-olds.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

You know? We're talking conspiracies. All the people that are watching or that are on Coke right now are like, yes, this is amazing. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, I don't mean to send you uh Yeah, yeah. Don't do Coke.

SPEAKER_04 17:10

Well no, I have a friend's uncle that uh I told him I had some suspicions about 9-11, and he thought, you know, he thought it was an idiot, and now he's like he thinks there's microchips in the vaccine. Like he went totally and I was like, oh whoops.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Bill Gates. Yeah, doing the microchips. Man, when that happened, I was like, all right, take her away, Bill. I didn't do a very good job with it. Maybe you can do better.

SPEAKER_04 17:34

Well, I never it's that's just that's a silly one, like yeah, you know, to think there's microchips in your vaccine. Well, where are they? We have microscopes. Show me one of these chips, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

And like we don't, we don't need they don't need any more help um tracking us. Exactly. We're good, they're listening right now. I promise you that.

SPEAKER_04 17:53

Yeah, that's exactly it. I've I've said that. I was like, dude, they're tracking, you have a phone in your pocket, you don't they don't need yeah, but even the social control thing. I'm like, you know, whenever I hear that the governments are oh, they're imposing this, they're gonna try and control us, they've been controlling us for two thousand. Like, like, what do they want? The the the 10% fringe that 90% of people don't commit crimes, 90% of people pay their taxes, and the banks are making like insane amounts of money more every year. I would say the system's working fine for them. Why would they want to impose more control?

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Like, you know, they like so, anyways, we are like way off the sticks right now. Sorry, no, no, it's okay, it's okay. We'll bring it back, we'll bring it back. Um, so when you went into your own, like this first journey that you had, yep. So tell us what brought you into that. Like, was it was it a really bad experience? Or I just had enough.

SPEAKER_04 18:59

I wanted to, I had tried I tried to quit doing coke and drinking for the 150th time. I was gray, I was fat. Like my ex-girlfriend Chelsea, she was like, Yo, you're the only cokehead I know is getting fatter, you know, and uh I just was just living a life of complete excess in all aspects, and I had enough, so I uh my blood pressure was through the roof, and you know, you're not supposed to do ayahuasca with really because it elevates your blood pressure, but I was like, I don't care. I'll either live and change or I'll die in this moment, whatever happens, happens. I'm just sick of this shit, and let's like you know, let's do this. Yeah, so I uh set the intention that I just wanted to quit drugs, and uh these weird alien beings I encountered seems to have done that for me because like I've done since I quit drugs, I bet you I've done Coke twice, nothing for like five years, you know. I can uh when Connor McGregor released his whiskey, I wanted to taste it, so I did, you know, and it didn't set me even when I bought Coke, you know. I just wanted to see if I still had a problem.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

And I uh let's just take this stick of dynamite, yeah, to see if he ever blows up.

SPEAKER_04 20:27

But no, I did some bumps and I was like, I'm done with it.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

I don't yeah, and it never let led me back. Super important question. How's Connor McGregor's whiskey?

SPEAKER_04 20:37

It wasn't bad as far as uh I don't even is it whiskey or vodka? I don't even know. I think it's whiskey. I don't even know. I didn't even know that was a thing. Yeah, yeah. He's got uh no, it was it was good. He definitely I mean, I'm not a whiskey connoisseur, but it wasn't it didn't didn't taste like super gross, it was kind of smooth and uh and yeah, but that was I just wanted to taste it. I had the whole bottle right there, it was somebody else's, yeah, and I didn't touch it again. I never actually really had a drinking problem, except that it made me want to do bumps.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

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SPEAKER_04 22:29

It was um well, I don't know the science thoroughly, but on the uh where what I've heard about ayahuasca, what it does is it opens new neuropathways in your brain that are kind of open channels. So I thought, so I had all these like open channels of like, oh, this is a better life, and they stay open. So I it's kind of like wiping your hard drive clean, like uh the day after I was kind of neutral about working out, went to the gym. Yep, still like that, put that back on the hard drive, still like drawing, put that back on the hard drive. Coke, nah, I'm not gonna, I'm just not gonna put that on the back on the play. I left it to the side, but I don't exactly know what changed other than maybe there's these new neuropathways are so strong because another thing about addiction, they say that I didn't do, I didn't cut anybody out of my life. You know, I was back at work watching people do blow the next day, and I didn't even, you know, when I said I tried it again, that was two years after being clean. Tried it once and I quit, and I've had another five years since. So I didn't have to like when I was watching people do coke again, I wasn't like, oh man, I want it. It was like I had the memory, but the the neuropathway connection was just dissolved, and I had this new ones where I didn't, but like I used to I remember my friend sitting there with a CD case full of lines talking to people. I was like, man, give me that. I was chopping lines for people and just like you're doing it wrong. Yeah, he these guys all want to do a bump, and you're telling a story about better Jordan or LeBron.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Yeah, like you're being rude, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:22

So, but no, I could be around it, and I didn't really have uh so I'm not exactly sure what changed. I just felt purified, I felt clean, and uh and uh just didn't I knew I didn't like it, so I I think I hadn't the like I said, these no neuropathways that were forged, and because you know that story, like every time you do something, your neuropathway gets stronger, every cigarette, every yeah, but ayahuasca severed these old connections, so it was it was almost like I was never an addict. I had the memory of it, but I woke up feeling like I wasn't an addict, but I also woke up feeling like I wasn't an artist or I I wasn't a gym rat. Like I had to redo those because I knew I had the memory of liking it, and then I was like, Yeah, I still want to keep this. So yeah, it was like I reset. Yeah, it was like a reset. That's exactly what it was, and just the drug thing I knew screwed me up, and uh I think that's why I wanted to do Coke again a couple years later to prove that it was these new neuropathways. I did a couple bumps and uh I was with a buddy of mine, and just after a while, I was like, Yeah, you keep the bag, I just I don't want it, and then just never again. But yeah, I still, you know, and I quit hanging out with people like that because after a while it's just gross energy of being around, it's boring, the conversations suck. Like somebody that's super wired on blow is just I saw a meme the other day.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Uh they should they uh and it said something to the effect of uh uh cocaine uh rehab centers should just be like you know, you have to go and sit with people who are high on cocaine and not be high on cocaine. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 26:10

You know, like it's everybody in the room thinks they're most the most interesting person in the world, and they talk and don't listen, and you know, or else you get real introverted and weird and just hang out in the bathroom the whole time, which has been me too. So I don't judge it, but I just don't want to be around it for energy-wise, it just doesn't feel very good.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

Has there ever been any time in your life like since this experience? I mean, and I want to talk about your your subsequent experiences with ayahuasca. You told me before the show you've done it a number of times. Yeah, probably about 70. 70 times that's probably around there, I should say. So has there ever been any point in any of your experiences where you've looked back and tried to analyze why? Why did you have why were you addicted to Coke for 12 years? What what were you either running from or running towards that you thought coke could help you with?

SPEAKER_04 27:04

Uh I I don't know, it wasn't really that well thought out. It's just I have an addictive personality to food, to whatever. So I don't really think, you know, I again, like I said, I was just an artist, so I liked alternate realities, alternate consciousness. I didn't really have, you know, I liked the aspect of, you know, the kind of rock and roll tattooist lifestyle. So that was appealing, but I can't really like, you know, as much as I'm uh I'm kind of a look forward person, you know, I'm very introspective, but I was just happy I was quit. I had quit and I wasn't going back. So I don't really know why. I haven't spent a ton of time thinking about it. You know, when you ask me, you know, most questions you ask me, I I have a definitive answer right off the bat. That I have I don't know. I'm not exactly sure why, you know, it was it was just there and it just you know this is just done now. Yeah, it just it's over. I just you know, and I know plenty of people have done psychedelics to quit drugs that didn't quit drugs, so I don't exactly know. It's not a magic pill, it just gives you the tools to to do it, but I think you know, you still have to ultimately do the work.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

It's like it doesn't heal you, but it opens the door for you to heal yourself.

SPEAKER_04 28:31

Yeah, I think that, you know, like I think uh I think so too. Yeah, another like uh experience I had was um I used to fight a bit when I was young. And uh like like in the ring or no, no, no, just in the street, just like not tons, but in the enough a stupid like yeah, it fighting's the stupidest shit ever, you know. Punching somebody feels so unnatural, you know. And uh I always wanted to be a tough guy, and I was like, Oh, I wonder why. And then uh one ayahuasca ceremony, I remember being little, probably in grade one, and this uh guy was picking on my little brother, and I pretended I didn't see it because I was scared, and that shame like I had forgotten that. I don't know if I tuned it out or if I just had forgot, but ayahuasca showed me that like oh yeah, remember when you're a little bitch and didn't help your brother. Well, that's why you you overcompensated and wanted to be a tough guy, was because of the shame you felt not sticking up for him, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 29:40

And then uh so that was kind of interesting, but so tell us about so you went through this one ceremony, you had this uh really painful experience. Uh and then how long was it before you went into your second experience and and why?

SPEAKER_04 30:02

Uh I would say sometimes the first one I think I did in April or May. The second one was probably in the summer. I wanted to see if there's more to learn. Plus, there's a visual aspect that's really cool that helped me in my art. You can see, you know, anybody that knows anything about psychedelics can tell that there's a big influence in my uh yeah, so a lot of the reasons I do it now, which is which is very minimal. I don't think I've done ayahuasca in three years. But uh, but um so there's a creative component to it, you know. So the second time I wanted to see if there's more to learn, or you know, because one of the things one of the things people say about psychedelics is well if you had such a pro it's had such a profound experience, why do you keep doing it? But it's like you know, it's like a massage. You don't go once and then never again. You go every few months for a reset or a recalibration or what have you.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

You know, I I've I've I've talked to some people who are quite in the know, both clinically and and and uh culturally, yeah. And uh it's like you go two or three times, you know, um, and and and and who's to say you don't go more than that? Who am I to say? Yeah, but you know, uh uh from what I've understood, it's like you don't just go once, you know, and if you can go once and all of your your healing or the doors are opened to healing for you through that one experience, yeah, it's amazing. But uh yeah, from from what I've heard, generally, it's like you want to try it at least two or three times in like a macro dose, like go to the moon type thing. Yeah, you know, so yeah, no, for sure. Like, I mean, I uh I'm not a doctor, this is not clinical advice.

SPEAKER_04 31:55

No, we all know, you know, I've done ayahuasca where the spirits have been like, yo, what are you doing here? You got nothing to, you know, we you don't need to be here right now.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

They're sitting playing cards, like, oh, you're back, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:10

So we'll give you something real brutal so you don't come back here for a while. Because uh, but yeah, I know I I've I've known when to back off. I was like, okay, I don't need this. And even right now, you know, like last time I did ayahuasca, I was going through a breakup and it just wasn't getting any better. So I did it and it did help with it. And uh, or the second last time, sorry. Um, the last time I did it was to kind of mend a relationship with somebody that I never really had a good one with, but I kind of had to, and uh it did help with that, you know. So there are certain things, but you know, I I I do think you can overdo it. You know, we're we're such gluttonous fucking idiots in the West, man. We overdo everything.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

It's true. Look around you right now. Do I did I need all this stuff? I don't know. I'm just gonna look here. I don't know. I think I probably could have got away with a few less screens. But you know what, man?

SPEAKER_04 33:10

This invokes the feeling of professionalism.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

You know what? If it does nothing else, I can't I can't disagree. You know, like um, I I'm just flying by the seat of my pants, yeah. Right, and I really want to punch out as much professionalism as I can because our message needs it. Well, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:26

And you're you're doing it, man. So keep it up because I yeah, I walked in here and I was like, holy fuck, this guy's for real. You know, this guy is a little over the top. Yeah, no, that's that that's that's great. So yeah, but yeah, in our culture, we are we're very excess oriented, and you when we find something that works, we tend to overdo that. So I do think you know, I don't think people that are 17 should be doing psychedelics. I don't I think you should let your brain form first. Um, you know, that might sound hypocritical because I started doing it at 15.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Well, but I'm an art like lived experience, man. You didn't know what you didn't know back then.

SPEAKER_04 34:07

You didn't know, and uh me being an artist, it all kind of helped with that, you know. So, but if you run to psychedelics or any drug or any form of help, even for every little thing, I just think you're denying yourself the chance to form some real resilience, which is you know facing the storm. You facing the storm, like in you know, in the last couple of years, I've had a stroke, I've had like the most important person to me pass away, and it was it was resilience that got me through those, not necessarily psychedelics. Like, I don't think you can separate the two at this point of just been doing it for so long, but you know, there there is a resilience and a positive attitude that comes from a realm outside of psychedelics is just as important a form, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Yeah, yeah. So you you keep mentioning uh you're an artist. Uh you started when when did you start drawing? Like when did you see that as an outlet for yourself?

SPEAKER_04 35:17

Um not until well, I started drawing when I was probably one, you know, like scribbling. I got pictures of me when I had to like hold myself up on something to stand, and I was already doodling, you know, and then I got into comics, and I thought that was I was always kind of more interested in what you couldn't see than what you could. Unpack that. Like in terms of the world, you know what I mean? Like I would yeah, I'd look at a building and I go, you know, that'd be a lot cooler if there was a fucking gargoyle on that, you know, or whatever, and then uh comics and anything involving the imagination. I was I was really drawn towards, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 36:00

And then uh so it wasn't it's it's not about recreating or representing the world, it's about reimagining it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 36:08

Like I don't those guys that can look at a picture and redraw it, I think that's that's amazing. That's a huge skill, but I didn't really recreate a sunset or yeah, like why there's a sunset, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

For me, it was like um, so there's definitely artistic value and talent that comes with that. Some dudes watching this right now and drawing a picture of a sunset.

SPEAKER_04 36:32

No, I wanted to see a sunset with a bunch of comets ripping through you, Roman.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Yeah, hard knocks talks.

SPEAKER_04 36:41

No, I for sure, but no, I like the creative. I you know, I like the imagination, I like the the reimagined world according to you type shit. And uh, so that's sort of what you know, but I was a rudderless for a lot of years until uh Jarrett Clarkson opened Rising Sun. I was friends with his girlfriend at the time, and then I saw what he was doing. I was like, Oh, that's pretty cool, man. You know, tattoos. Like when I first saw tattoos, I liked the concept, but I didn't see any that were that cool, you know what I mean? I was like, oh hey, Eddie from Iron Maiden, sorta, you know, and I just uh, you know, and uh, but then I saw this this dude named Guy Atchison did a tattoo I saw in a magazine, and I was blown away at the level of artistic quality and ability. So that's kind of what drew me towards tattoo, towards tattooing.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

How did your art change after your first experience with ayahuasca?

SPEAKER_04 37:46

A lot more balance, a lot more eyes in the art, like you know skulls and eyes and yeah, there's a there's a definite component of you know, when you're on ayahuasca where you smoke DMT, I don't know if eyes are because eyes are familiar to us, that you know, when these beings try and get down to communicate with you, they're so powerful, they kind of show you symbols that you can make sense of, yeah, make sense of, you know, and uh they don't want to melt your brain. No well, maybe they kind of do both, but uh so yeah, they just became a lot more colorful, a lot less like dark, not only dark, I try and have like a dark and light balance. Like even when I draw a really horrific demonic monster, I always maybe have a little glimmer of hope in there somewhere. And sometimes I draw more positive, sometimes I but I've always been drawn towards like dark stuff, you know. That's where the death metal comes from. And you know, when I was a little kid, you know, when I hear about like a serial killer or the Nazis or something, I was always fascinated by how humans could do that to other people, but uh it didn't like I remember so was it a fascination or was it like a repulsion?

SPEAKER_01 39:12

I couldn't, I don't know. I think it was both. I think I was like it was so terrible you couldn't stop looking, yeah. Or there was a genuine interest to understand why that's happening. No, but I was in grade one, so I don't think it formulated like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:26

But you know, I remember seeing I don't know if you remember, but in the 80s, this guy named James Huberty walked into a McDonald's in a suburb of uh uh San Diego, this San Ysidro Californian shot up the McDonald's, and he killed like close to 40 people. And uh I remember seeing a picture of one of the kids was outside and he was walking up to the door on his bike, and he shot through the glass and killed him, and it was in a magazine, so it wasn't graphic, but you could see his feet in the picture beside his bike, and I would just stare at it for I was like, How could a guy shoot little kids? Like, that's terrible. Why am I still looking at this and thinking about it laying in bed? And uh I thought I was weird because I liked all this dark stuff, but then that's when I first heard heavy metal, and I was like, Oh wow, people that aren't embarrassed to think like this, and I was just drawn towards it, and I never uh and I had a really anti-religious sort of mindset. I I went to a Catholic school, I loved the stories of Jesus and forgiveness and turning the other cheek, but they're being taught to me by these evil, mean people, you know, like that like not all of them, but I had some really religious, really brutal, shitty teachers, and I was always kind of like, Well, what the fuck is going on? These stories are about forgiveness and turning the other cheek, and they're being presented by this fucking mean fat bitch that fucking I can't deal with, you know, and I was always uh and then you know, so when I discovered Slayer, which was the you know, Slayer kind of they hold a dark mirror up to society and make you face all the war and and really and uh and I I felt like I had a home. You know, I was like, oh wow, these guys aren't ashamed to be into sick shit, and then you know, it just got heavier and heavier, and then it got into death metal and cannibal corpse and all these like but it's fictitious, you know. I I don't you know if you paint an album cover with a gutted hooker on it, I'm like, cool. But if you had a real picture of a gutted hooker, I was like, yeah, that's kind of distasteful, you know. Like I so there's a line of, but you know, I think to be a complete person, you have to embrace your dark side and embrace the light. I couldn't agree more. Like, that's why, like the yin-yang symbol, you know, the half, and that is a perfect symbol. You know, it's half dark, half light, with a little bit of each in the opposite chunk. Yeah, and then uh, you know, if uh I know there's exceptions, but you know, you ask most people that know a death metal fan in their family or whatever, they all say them this see the say the same thing. They're like, You're so mellow and so nice, and yeah, you like this horrific shit. Well, I like good shit too.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Yeah, you know, maybe it's and maybe that's an outlet, maybe that's an outlet for your anger and for all of the thoughts and all of the things that are irrational. Because I like I know for me, like I'm not a death metal fan. I I I listened to Slayer and Pantera when I was 15 and angsty, but yeah, um, but for me, it's like if I have an opportunity to have that sick shit that I'm thinking that's twisting me up and it doesn't make sense, and I say it out loud and I hear hear how ridiculous it sounds when I put it out into the real world and my own ears hear it. Yeah, like that's a big help for me, and that's why talk therapy is so and peer support and all that is so important.

SPEAKER_04 43:10

It's very cathartic, you know. You get that. And when you um have a society and culture, the metal culture is huge, you know what I mean? There's millions of us around the world. It it gives you a kind of a sense of belonging, you know, like, oh, it's okay to have twisted thoughts. Like, don't get me wrong, I've met some metal heads or annoying and shitty people, just like any other walk of the assholes in every genre. Exactly. But uh but yeah, you know, I've always I was kind of felt like at home, and uh so I started to draw really twisted shit and just kind of kept up with it, and I still do it to this day.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

You ever draw stuff and you're like, Oh god, that's even too much for me? No, no, no. So um you went to Peru? Yeah, twice uh twice. Okay. Twice. So you're doing this stuff on your own with would you call it like a tripsitter? No, because we all did it.

SPEAKER_04 44:07

Okay. We were all on it, but uh I felt comfortable. Like the people I did it was with uh I'm gonna leave their names out of it because I don't know what, but a nurse, um some other responsible people that were adults that had some had been to Peru before, some had not, but we all were kind of I knew we'd be okay. We never really have had a crazy incident where it got out of control, but I did feel like something was missing. I wanted to experience a real thing with the shaman.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

So tell us about that then. Tell us about your experience going down to Peru. How were you greeted? How was it different? They were cool.

SPEAKER_04 44:44

Um did you go into the jungle and meet with the shaman or yeah, it was through it was through an organization called the ayahuasca foundation, which I highly recommend. Like they were so pro this Carlos Tanner guy, and uh the reason I liked him is he was a white guy from Boston, but he didn't open a center and then find a shaman. He built the center around the shaman, the shaman and his whole family, the the Shabibo people, they get most of the money. They get like it's all about them, you know. So it kind of had that good balance of this just isn't some guy trying to cash in on uh the accommodations were great, the facilitators, but I was I was greeted uh really well. Like they didn't talk English, like the actual, but it was a really good experience because um there's this young boy, probably about seven or eight, and I noticed the first couple days he was kind of hanging around me, but he didn't want to make contact, but he was kind of intrigued by the tattoos or something, and uh so eventually I look at him and I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this. I give him a little punch in the shoulder, and then all hard he started laughing, punch me back. His dad started laughing. You know, people are people, yeah. You know, and it was like, and then it was just cool from like then it was cool from the beginning, but that really solidified uh, you know, you know, somebody's good to be around when you can't speak the same language, but their energy is welcoming and great. And then uh but yeah, these shaman or or something else like uh I used to uh live on Alexander Street right next to the Lou Van Busy street, you know, biggest street in Regina, really. And uh third day I'm in Peru, he was like, Do you live near a busy street?

SPEAKER_01 46:51

And I was like, Yeah, so who's this guy? So you said he didn't speak English, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:55

Through a translator, sorry, sorry, we had a translator, yeah. Um, and uh, so yeah, this guy was like, Ulrique wants to know if you live near a busy street, and I was like, Yeah, I do. And he's like, Oh, okay. And I was like, Well, how how did he know that? And he's like, Well, I have visions, but they're not always true. So I like to add that's what I liked about him. I think a lot of it is because of the language barrier, but I never for a second felt because the guy was trying to sell me on anything, you know. And uh yeah, I had one journey too where it was really dark and brutal, and I was suffering bad, like just as bad as the this was in Peru? Yeah, in Peru, just as bad as a female one, and it I was seeing all the terror and hate and anger of through the Middle East, like and uh I was sinking and sinking and getting worse, and I could I felt like almost suicidal. And then uh I heard our shaman's voice getting louder and louder, so I kind of opened my eyes. I wasn't making any noise or commotion, but he came up and then he held my foot and he sang his icaros, and I'd say in about two to five minutes got better and it calmed down, and he went back to the center. He didn't do it to anybody else, and then uh after the ceremony, he just like patted me on the head and through the translator, he was like, you know, rough one, eh? And like he knew I was going through this horrible experience, and he because that's what shaman do is they kind of freestyle and keep the balance away. Like when they're singing their crazy icaros, they're not singing a song they have memorized without intention. Yeah, they're kind of freestyling, like, oh yeah, and the group's doing oh, Roman's starting to go down a bit, so I'll bring it back up. Okay, now he's good. Oh, and Lisa's doing, and you know, and I don't know. I and uh so I asked the translator, like, could he see what I was going through? And he was like, No, but I could just tell you were sinking and sinking, and I was singing to bring you back, and I couldn't bring you back up, so I came and just like drew it out of you, huh? And I was like, Well, that's really weird, because like you know, it's I don't believe in you know, I want to see evidence. I'm an evidence-based person, I believe in spirituality, but I believe there's probably a scientific explanation.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Probably just some technology we don't understand anymore. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:18

Um, so but you know, that really got to me. I was like, how the fuck did he know that I was suffering like that enough to drew to like it's unbelievable, you know. So there's uh there's more going. I don't know what it is, but there's more going on, there's uh more going on to their this reality than we uh realize, you know. I saw you know space and time as kind of the foundation that physics is based on, but I now I I was watching this uh professor Donald Hoffman talk about their you know, they think there's something beyond space-time they don't know anything about yet that is more fundamentally real. And uh so yeah, I I think there's just more going on. I don't claim to know what it is, I don't trust anyone that claims to know what it is, but uh there's definitely more going on than what we can see. Like I've a lot of the visions I've seen on ayahuasca, they're more real than this reality. You know, you're not disorient, your your thoughts are crisp and clear, and your focus of you know, you're just looking at the stuff you can't comprehend, you know.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

Do you think now, and you've mentioned beings and spirits a few times now. Do you think that this this medicine is is a gateway? Yeah, so that these beings, like do you think these beings are real, or do you think these beings are manifestations of your own mind trying to make sense of itself?

SPEAKER_04 50:49

I think they can be both, but the like some of the knowledge they've like, you know, some of the way they make you see the world in a way that you never like it's not even humanly possible. It's really hard to explain. Like, you have to do ayahuasca to understand. It's like trying to explain the world to a blind person, you know, like all the like you know, you stare at a mountain range or the Grand Canyon, you know, the awe you feel. Like, could you imagine trying to explain that to somebody who's never been able to see? It's really hard, right? So it's really hard to explain um the ayahuasca thing, but like some of the knowledge seems like it's coming. I could be wrong. If it's created by the brain, it's in a way where there's no like starting point that you can see. So, you know, I think uh it almost seems like it's teaching you the truth before you're blinded by capitalism and demographic, like or something. I don't know, but it's I do believe that yeah, some of these beings are not have you ever seen the same being twice in two different journeys?

SPEAKER_01 52:04

Yep, yeah, hey, hey Fred.

SPEAKER_04 52:06

Yeah, I actually, and it came with the sense of familiarity, like going for coffee with a friend, yeah. Like, you know how uh like turning onto your street, you know, when you turn onto your street, you have that sense of oh yeah, I was like home. So before I saw the being, I knew I was gonna meet him. It was like, oh shit, I'm going, oh yeah, yeah, you know, yeah. Um, I asked this one being like, Where are you from? And they're he's like, Oh, I couldn't explain it. It's like we're multidimensional, um, we don't travel across space and time. Like, I can enter the earth's coordinates and have this kind of energetic 3D printer. So he's like, When you see when you guys see UFOs, they didn't come from a distant place, they came from a different dimension, materialized in this dimension, and then you know, went about their business like, and I was like, Wow, and uh on DMT once I asked them if this was a simulation, and they're like, Yeah, it's a history simulation. Earth died about four million years ago, and we ran a history simulation to see what happened on the planet. So, what we are is just a history simulation, and I was like, How is that helpful?

SPEAKER_01 53:36

Yeah, I know. I was like, that's weird, you know. But interesting. Um, this just popped up. Uh, our our friend and and uh uh longtime watcher Twinkle. Uh Twinkle asks, no disrespect. How can you know some aren't demons or not necessarily for your good? Like if it opens a door, well, there there are some.

SPEAKER_04 53:58

Okay, I've seen a bunch of demons on uh on journeys, like evil, harsh beings. And uh one I defeated my uh shaman of Peru taught me this again through uh through a uh translator. He's like Roman, when you encounter demons on your journey, you're always so ready to fight. You pull out your spiritual sword and like try beating them with love. And I did on this one, I remember like creating these these glowing orbs in my stomach, pulling them out of this like kind of glowy peach juice sort of shit. And I handed it to him, and this demon ended up just turning into an angel or a pleasant being. So uh um, another thing our our shaman taught us it was to say, if you're not medicine, fuck off, you know, and the demons will fight. It's like they have to almost some kind of weird oath or something. I don't know, but uh yeah, you experience lots of demons trying to trick you on ayahuasca. You experience lots of good too, but yeah, you know, that's why when people say, you know, well, ayahuasca is uh a crutch or uh escape, it's like no, it's not. You're gonna feel the most fear, you know, like as well as the pure love, you're gonna experience some really, really horrific shit, all in the name of learning. Um, you know, when I had my stroke and I was laying there, I thought I was dying, I was puking, I went blind, you know. I was like, oh, this is it, and I was totally comfortable. And I I don't mean to say that to sound tough or cool, like, but I was ready to go.

SPEAKER_01 55:47

Was there and and this this maybe this is a dark question, but were was there any relief? Like when you thought you were gonna go, were you like, oh thank god it's over?

SPEAKER_04 55:56

Yeah, besides you know, Jude, I was like, uh, that sucks that I'm not gonna be here for Jude as much. Yeah, it was uh like a relief, yeah. It was great. Yeah, like you know, I and I wrestle with that now as uh you know there's there guilt? Not guilt, but when I have my dark moments, I'm like, fuck, I was almost out of this motherfucker. Like, you know, yeah, yeah. At times, but uh no, my love for for anybody who doesn't know, I'm uh father figure to uh next girlfriend's little boy. He lives with uh his grandma, who's done a great job in raising him. But I just uh they used to live in Regina and I saw them pretty much every day. But after my stroke, they're uh living in a small town near Capel, but uh um so I don't see him as much, but I'm still a big, you know. So when I was he was at my house, he was laying there, he was watching me the one I called 911. Whoa, we handled it like a champ. That's heavy, yeah. But I could hear the Mario coins binging and stuff, like he was still playing. Like I played it because I was, you know, I was like, hey, if you I knew I was having a stroke, and I was like, hey, Jude, if I quit answering, you're gonna have to phone 911. And uh, and then I hit the floor, started puking and went blind. And uh he knew to call 911. How old was he at the time? Seven. Holy candle. But the funny thing is, when I was laying there and I thought I was dying, I could still hear the Mario coins big, and he was still playing in the living room because I remained calm, you know, so he didn't think. Well, I don't know, I'll ask him when he's an adult, but as far as I understand it, it wasn't a huge deal to him. Um, but yeah, there was a sense of relief, and you know, I'm a pretty laid back, even killed guy. And uh when I was laying there, I thought I was dying. I was like, oh wow, this is relaxed. I thought I was mellow before, but this is real, not give a shit. Well, here it is. You know, I'm I'm you I thought I was dying.

SPEAKER_01 58:03

Even even though you were hearing the coins and you knew too much. Oh, it sounded way far away, and it was just like, okay, well, I'm beyond being able to help him, or I don't, you know, well, the other thing that it's hard to fully decipher because a stroke is a brain injury, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:21

So I don't know what was I don't know if this euphoric feeling was just chemicals to calm me down, being pumped to my brain in a moment of potential death, or if it like I don't know exactly. Yeah, I don't know. I I I didn't see any angels, I didn't see any spiritual beings, I wasn't even really you know, wasn't really thinking of anything other than like I'm in good hands, whatever these hands are. Um this is it, I'm out of here. And it was bigger than me, yeah, and totally peaceful feeling and surrender was good. I wasn't fighting it. But would it be the same if I was having a heart attack? I don't know. Who's to say? Yeah, who's to say? Because you know, I've uh I have a friend who's a nurse, and she said when people are dying, she's like in the moment before the moments before death, it always goes peaceful before they die. They never go like this fucking sucker, and then done, like there's always like this out, I don't wanna and then go. You know, so I don't know if there's something to it, but uh because I definitely had some death trips on ayahuasca and where I went through my death and it was horrifying, and uh so I think maybe it prepared me for it. I think I don't know. It's really hard to go through that experience, and like any experience, it's really hard to judge it in real time or make sense of it in real time as you're dying. Yeah, you know, I was puking and I went blind, like that was the trippiest. I was like, Oh, there goes my sight. So I thought that was the final. Well, here it's coming. And then I woke up in the hospital and I was like. Were you like pissed off when you woke up? No, I was out of it for two days. I couldn't make sense of anything. Like, it's like you wake up in a complete stupor. You know, your brain is I could, you know, I I don't think I could even see for probably the first day and a half, but it didn't even dawn on me to tell anyone. You know, a nurse would be talking to me, my dad would be talking to me, and I was totally blind, but I never told them that I couldn't see. I was just like, Oh yeah, cool, because I was in a wheelchair, so it's not like I had to walk or do anything visual.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

Just complete acceptance of what is, no need to communicate your situation.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:46

No, it didn't even feel well. I don't know. I don't know, like it was too blurry, but you know, it was really weird to not even say, Hey, I can't quite see yet. Is that normal? I didn't literally like we're gonna take you for a shower. I'm like, Yeah, cool. You know, I didn't know what showers.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:03

Yeah, I didn't know what was going on. Yeah, so you mean you've experienced DMT several times now. From what I think I know, yeah, uh DMT is a drug that's released in your body when you're dying, naturally. I've heard that, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:18

Well, DMT is the active ingredient in ayahuasca. Okay. But uh yeah, I've heard your brain releases DMT when you're dying, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:26

I don't know if was there any uh any no, no, you were like, hey, this is familiar.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:31

No, no, not at all. Yeah, you know, I was blind, so I couldn't see there was no, you know, the real thing I was going through had no similarities to uh ayahuasca or DMT death trip that I've been through. Uh you know, the only thing I can think of maybe is the ayahuasca or DMT made dying seem a million times worse. So when it does happen, you it's easy compared to that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

I mean, that's the hope, I would suppose.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:04

Yeah, yeah. Well, because I've uh I've uh I've had ayahuasca experiences where they give you extreme, extreme anxiety. So whenever you feel anxiety coming on in the real world, it's like this is nothing compared. I felt it's like okay, we're gonna give you the most you can handle.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:26

So just so you know how good you have it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:29

It kind of gives you a manageable benchmark for what you're really going through. Yeah, like, oh, it could be way worse. You know, it's like uh, you know, if you were to get punched a couple times by Mike Tyson, yeah, some little 14-year-old giving you a shot in the ribs, you're like, oh, I can deal with this. Yeah, yeah. It's like the same thing, it gave you this spiritual beating to a level that anything you go through in your everyday life is very manageable in comparison.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:56

So we've talked about a few of your experiences. If you haven't talked about it yet, I'm interested to know what is the biggest what is the biggest piece of wisdom or the most growth that you've experienced as a result of an ayahuasca journey.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:13

Tolerance of other ways of life, not in um I've always been tolerant of of other cultures, of whatever. I don't have a race, I didn't even have racist grandparents, which is in Saskatchewan's almost unheard of. That is a little bit, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I've always been intolerant, but what it taught me is the people that I dislike the most have just as much value as they are as I do or anybody else, you know, like a value in your life? No, no, just as a person or there's a reason they're in your life, you know. I well, not even the people, you know, like uh, you know, I'm not like Donald Trump, you know, I'm not into politics, but when people are like, fuck, Donald Trump's a biggest piece of shit, I'm like, well, he had a horrible father and millions of dollars. That's gonna corrupt and create, like you give me, like my dad was great. We didn't all see eye at eye, but he was a good dad. You give me an abusive, physically abusive dad who's rich and kind of gives you all the money to, you know, that's gonna create a lot of monsters. So even the people I don't like, I I don't like the way I don't like the way our culture now tries to reduce people to the most non-charitable view and define them as only that, you know. People whether it's Joe Rogan or whoever, well, he said this on his he's talked for 4,000 hours, he's gonna say some dumb shit, you know, or whoever, like uh our you know, RFK, well, he's an anti-vaxxer. Well, he's also done a ton of great environmental work for 30 years, is not important too. Whoa, and they, you know, when you know, and I'm not an anti-vaxxer, I I think there's great value in vaccines, but when you when somebody says something about vaccines and then you only hold them to the fact they're an ant they say there's one thing you don't like and you dismiss everything else, I don't like that. And I think one of the biggest things ayahuasca has shown me is that even the most even people with really bad um views on something, they shouldn't be judged for don't reduce somebody to just the thing you don't like. Because there's way more to them than that, you know, and I that's one of the biggest one of the biggest things I've taken away is I see Somebody I don't agree with and actually flat out despise their way of looking at the world. I see just I have just as much love the word, but acceptance of them as for somebody that I think they say everything that I find very inspiring.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:18

So that's really that's that's profound. Stop reducing people to just the parts you don't like about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:25

Yeah, yeah. We we tend to reduce people to the most non-charitable view they've ever said. The worst version of them of them they've ever said, and then hold them to that. They're only that, like you know, if if uh and I don't agree with that, like you know, people have a love for their kids and they probably make other people laugh, and uh, it's like uh it's like that uh Dave Chappelle joke about Bill Cosby and all the horrible things he's done, but he's also put thousands and thousands of black kids through college and all this stuff. Oh, and he made an entire generation laugh for sure, and what he did for the black call like on TV, having a black family that are professional, and you know, that probably helped a lot of people. Like, don't get me wrong, I think what he did is deplorable, and I'm not, but he's like, you know, it's really hard to I don't know. One thing that I saw that really profound experience once was uh some black woman in a courtroom forgiving her son's murderer and hugging him in the courtroom before he I was like, Wow, we need more of that in the world. You know, most people hate their neighbor because they ran over their fucking shitty sprinkler or whatever, and yeah, yeah, and don't want to.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:55

And now that's all that person is the person that ran over my sprinkler when he were they were late for work and in a hurry or just had a fight with their partner exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:03

And here's this woman who some guy shot her son in a home invasion, and she's forgiving them and hugging them and crying. Like I'm sure she's but that I was like, wow, we need more people like that. We're so ego-driven, and we don't turn the other cheek, you know. We we are so and I I just find that really gross, you know. I find that's one of the things in society that that I struggle with is I hate seeing people being mean to each other and not uh not seeing the truth, not seeing the truth or trying to understand overb that I'm trying to conjure in my head.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:44

I know I've heard it somewhere before, and it was like on the other side of right and wrong is the truth.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:49

Yeah, yeah. And uh I don't think um I I I try and focus more on human nature than than right and wrong, or you know, like it's human nature to do something like let's say group A forms an organization. Well, of course, group B is gonna form one, and one might be racist and one might be, but they're like that's wrong. Well, no, it's human nature to form no matter what you believe.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:20

There's gonna be an opposing opinion, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:23

An opposing opinion, an opposing group that mobilizes to counter. So I don't, you know, I I I don't understand that. Like when I see when you know, when I see some marginalized group, like let's say I don't know, let's say a bunch of black people get together and form a community group, it doesn't surprise me when a bunch of redneck racists do the same thing. Do I agree with them? No, but do I understand why they did it? Yeah, human nature, and I think that human beings, if we look at as as any act would deplorable or good as human nature as opposed to right or wrong, which is kind of fictitious, you know, there's no there's no objective right or wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:13

You can justify there is some ultimate somewhere, but I mean who's to say, you know. Actually, I'm I'm watching this this show on Disney Plus Loki, yeah, and um, and it's talking about timelines and all these things, and I I'm really enjoying it. I don't usually buy into series or movies, like I could struggle to watch a movie, yeah. But I mean this it's talking about uh you know timelines and and variants and all of these different things, and it's talking about right and wrong, and it it also talks about like what do you know how necessary this wrong that you perceive is wrong? How do you know that wasn't a necessary thing to keep the timeline going the way it's meant to go? Totally, you know. So and that and then and I and again, I'm not justifying any of the atrocities that have happened in human history, but it leads me to think what would have happened had those things not happened, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:56

You know, I know like it's hard to know, like maybe what Hitler did, as brutal as it was, is gonna cause some Jewish kid in 2062 to invent something that saves humanity. Like, I don't know, you know, again, not uh you know, or or the opposite thing, maybe the killing of Hitler is going to lead to something that you know somehow. Yeah, somehow like I we don't know. Yeah, it's it's we have such a short lifespan. Um to analyze like everything, yeah. You know, we have this weird need to make sense of shit, yeah, which is probably instinctually good.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:42

Yeah, well, we need to know if something's on its way to kill us, yeah. You know, we need to know that we need to find food, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And so and these things just get turned into well, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:52

What if the thing that kills us allows other humans to thrive? Yeah, you know, like I've often I often think of that as a what if aliens came down and said, Okay, you're on the list of people. We have a list of a million people that have to die in order for humanity to thrive. Fuck. Okay. All right, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Make sure my kid's cool. Yeah, because he ain't going. I don't care what you say, I'd rather everybody die but him. Yeah, you know, so I'm not having that, but I would have uh, you know, I would have a hard time being upset if I had to go for the betterment of all humanity. Just like maybe make a statue out of me or something like stuff me.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:39

Take me to the taxidermist. Yeah, uh, where can people find your music? Where can people follow you? Where can people see your art?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:46

Uh Roman Corkery at Instagram. Music I haven't done lately since my stroke. I don't know if I'll I will. That chapter might be done. Just you know your band. I don't know what time the name of your band. Uh, I was in a few. The biggest one that we built a following was called Digital Doomsday. And uh that was with members of like Into Eternity and uh for any death metal fans out there like Flo from Cryptopsy that he's such uh Flo has had such a big impact on the scene you don't even need to say his last name. People know who you're talking about. And uh I made friends with him and he kinda wanted to get on this project, so we uh released a couple albums like 10 10 years ago, and we haven't and then I was in a band, a local band called Seeping Beauty, which is just death metal, and uh we kinda packed it in when COVID started, and but uh so I'm focusing more on my art. But yeah, Roman Corkery, R-O-M-A-N-C-O-R-K-E-R-Y at Instagram as all my uh psychedelic art.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:03

I've also got your link to your Facebook in the in the description. I can throw the one for Instagram in there too. That's no problem. Appreciate it, man. Man, thanks so much for joining me. I think I I really enjoyed that conversation. Yeah, me too. So, and uh yeah, I mean, maybe we'll have you back again sometime. That I would be honored. That would be wonderful. All right, cool. Okay, later, dude. So if you got anything out of this episode today, please hit that like button at the bottom of the screen. Let the algorithm know that you liked what you what you saw. If you're not yet subscribed to us on YouTube, please go ahead and hit that subscribe button, turn on notifications. We go live every Friday morning, every Sunday evening. We got stories of lived experience with substance use, like we heard today. We also talk about drug policy and research and all kinds of things. Everything's substance use. If you don't have time to sit and watch us for an hour, check us out on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts. That's all I got for you today. Thanks so much for joining me. Take care, everyone. Say this is hard knocks talks. There's these voices with the people who need to hear them. Big shout out to SEIU West, our official equipment sponsor, improving the lives of working people and their families and leading the way to a more just and humane society. Find their link in the show notes. Say this is hard knocks talks.