Crack Cocaine, Murder, and Redemption | Pierre’s Recovery Story

Pierre shares his journey through crack cocaine addiction, drug trafficking, organized crime, prisonment for 2nd degree murder, identity struggles, and recovery. 

From growing up as the son of an OPP officer to becoming incarcerated for manslaughter, this conversation explores trauma, Indigenous identity, harm reduction, healing, and rebuilding purpose after addiction and incarceration. 

Learn more about CRISM Quebec

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Uh got my my my my ankles broken by by some guys that I owed some big money from. And I remember bones cracking. I'm I'm thinking to myself, I hope they leave soon because I still got about an eight ball left. This is Hard Knox Talks.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Pierre, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Yes, welcome to the beautiful studio SF here in Montreal.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

And indeed, welcome to La Belle Previse, Montreal. Hope you're having a good visit.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Ah, merci. Mm-hmm. So let's let's jump right into it. Where did substances get started in your life?

SPEAKER_00 0:31

I had identity issues all my life. I grew up in a small uh Franco Ontario town just outside of Ottawa where my old man was an OPP officer. A cop. And it was a small town. Grew up, you know, figure my age, I'm 55 years old, so in the 70s and the 80s, and you don't wanted to be this heavy metal kid and you know the leather and all that. And uh my dad was a cop and my mom was a hairdresser. So I was the only heavy metal kid with short hair and a curfew.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

And a cop for a dad. That's right. That must have caused uh trust issues in certain circles.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Yeah, because I wasn't like into the sports or I wasn't into you know high high school or school or whatever. You know, I I I fell into that that that music and that rebelliousness and then you know, you know, and um started using drugs at the age of 13. You know, it was easier in in our small hometown to to to get a gram of hash, you know, all the time, which was common being close to Montreal and the ports and everything. And so, you know, hash is what we we grew up with. Right off the boat? Yeah, you know, and um then we were kids, and at the age of 14 I started cocaine. Yeah. It was easier for us to find a a quarter gram of cocaine than it was to get a six-pack for teenagers, you know, anywhere else where we were. So uh and and because of that, that music and those lyrics and that that that rebelliousness and then you know, anti-conformatist and all that is what you know rock music or heavy metal at the time that I was into was about. And uh so so yeah, yeah, you know, I wanted to have the long hair and the the leather jacket and all that, but you know, your mom's a hairdresser, so you gotta have the horse, you know, they used to be like that good boy, but because I was such a disciplinary environment, as soon as I got out the door, I was like three times worse, you know, than in the other kids, it seems like uh the old man was uh well his his mother was native, and uh we just did not talk about that. Like it was a shame, there was a taboo to say that in our house that we were we were Indian kids, if you will. And um it always confused me because we we were in a small, like I said, Fanaco Ontario, basic Catholic town. And I I always felt darker than most of the other kids, and I felt like dirty almost. And we were the only one that really spoke more English than French. We're the only family in the whole town that we we wouldn't go to church. So I we I just felt different outcast, not knowing why. So you didn't talk about feelings, you didn't talk about your own thoughts, you God knows they tried and all that. It was just it was me, you know. I was I was I was keeping it all inside and angry and confused, and then so drugs, drugs, drugs. So after graduating high school, um I did my first of many, many, many geographical escapes across Canada. And I ended up in northern Ontario and I went to college for two years. College and uh did took a law and security administration program to basically everybody wanted to become cops or whatever in this program. And I went to Sudbury just with a total party attitude, you know, living in residence, college residents, and then working in a bar at night and as a doorman, and as you know, it's two crazy years, and the drugs and the alcohol, and the all those things followed there, followed me there. Ex escalated, got got, you know, bigger. I I did the school thing. I I I you know I volunteered at sub regional police for for for two years.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

I uh So you're partying, you're doing all these things, and you're burning the candle at both ends. And you're also trying to become law enforcement. That's right. That's right. Yeah, did you exactly was it in that point of your life, did you did you see a problem on the horizon, or did you think that you were pulling it off?

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Yeah. Well when you're young and dumb and bulletproof, you know, that's it. So you know it's you thought you were doing a good job. That's it. I thought I was, you know, getting away, uh a little bit of a con man, a little bit of a, you know, all those things, and laughed about it and and then didn't really commit myself to to employment or to relationships or or to anything else. It was a very uh hedonistic lifestyle from a from a get-go. You know, uh self-seeking, self-centered, selfish, you know, always wanting more, always wanting more. And as soon as you get it, you want more. Yeah, no matter what it was. That that's the that's the story of my life, though. I've and then as soon as I graduated from college, um So you graduated? Yeah. Okay, what did you graduate with? It's it's called it's just law and security administration. It's a two-year program. So you know, it's a college. So you could have been a cop. Uh as soon as I graduate from college, I got uh I got uh hired by the Ontario Provincial Police. As a police officer? No, as uh as a 911 operator. I was just a kid, I was uh 19 years old, you know, working in this this this this environment that uh I knew nothing about, really, yeah, you know, college or whatever, but it's it's just the tip of the iceberg. But uh incredible amounts of drinking in those those years. Incredible amounts of drinking, and I was hiding the dope. I was hiding the dope, of course, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

I can see um being uh 911 dispatch being a a heavy load.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Yeah, it was intense for for for a young kid, you know, my age, still just a teenager and domestic disputes, and the cop got shot one day and then he took the emergency call from you know accidents and it's it's it's it's it's no one calls no one calls 911 and a happy note.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Oh yeah Hey, how's it going? How do we do that? Yeah, no, everything's good. Beautiful sunrise today.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

So so indeed, indeed. So like I said, I've always been under intense, heavy pressure all my life, you know, always trying to scam, do the next thing, you know, like basically then it became web of lies and all those things that are associated with addiction, you know, because I was hiding from the people I was working with. You know, at lunchtime I'd go outside and smoke a joint, uh do a couple lines in the washroom, uh, you know, during these 12-hour shifts at night. And it's just thinking about it. And then after uh several years, uh three years, I was just about to become like go to c police college, uh, like uh to become a OPP officer, yeah. And I uh I was at OPP College in Elmer, which is their school, and the two detectives came in from my detachment where I worked in, and they arrested me for uh trafficking, cultivation. Uh so you were selling? Yeah, you know, just a little growing some pot, and you know. So so yeah, so they wanted me to quit my job right away and all this, so that was pretty hard.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

So you think that's yeah, so you were you were you were in police college? Correct. And the police came into the police college and arrested you.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

You know, I was 22 years old, 23 years old, and uh had to call my old my old man, you know, and they knew about it already because the inspectors went to tell him, you know, they didn't want to warn him because you know they they protect each other, whatever. So yeah, so so then that was one of many, many, many, many things I've put my old man to shame and myself to shame, you know, or whatever. But yeah, I was, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

So uh so what did that look like then when you like after that, did you go to jail?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Second, second, no. Uh after a year of going to court and still trying to do the 911 thing, you know, half the people in there hated you. You know what I mean? So I'd have to go to my chef and they'd see me as a drugie back then, you know, a weed guy. Uh you know, like I was just stigmatized overnight. I was just, you know, some people that I'd work with, you you know, still supported me or whatever, but many were really like totally against me. I'm a druggie. I'm a druggie, you know. So after a year of doing this and then stressed out and all that, uh, they said, quit your job and we'll drop all the charges. So that was one of my first arrests and and then lucky uh strikes or whatever. And then I packed up and went for another geographical escape. Uh and I went to uh live in northern Ontario in a reserve that was only accessible by train or by plane. And uh I had no idea what I was getting into. I left the girlfriend behind. I left, you know, I packed up my truck and the German Shepherd put my truck on the train and who took the girl behind, but you took the dog. That's right. Country song gone wrong. Yeah. But um, so so so that's what happened. And uh and once again, you know, just ran away from everything. So show up in a brand new place, and this was like craziness. Now I wasn't no longer no OPP stigmatization or no wannabe cop behind me. You know, that was I went there and it was like stepping back into time. You know, as soon as I got off that train, I was so drunk, you know, that six-hour trunk train ride and telling stories all the way up and then listening to where I'm going. And so I'm going there to transfer to the Ministry of the Environment. So they kind of just hired me, because I'm the only person that applied to go to this job way up there. Up in Moose in E, Ontario, on James Bay. So it's like I said, it was accessible by train or plane only. So I get there and then it was like my my life took an instant tragic turn where uh um you know it's like stepping back into time, like an old cowboy film, like uh the streets were dusty and uh you know, Res Life, and and it really shocked me, opened my eyes. You know, I saw some beautiful people, I saw some beautiful parts of the world of Canada, you know, and then connected to that that nature that I love so much and the fishing and whatnot. But I also saw the tragedies of Res life, you know, of there's just an introduction, racial trauma and lateral violence and all those things. So, but I got right into it. You know, I I started selling weed there at 40 bucks a gram. That was craziness, you know, it was craziness, and and I led that life, you know, I trying to work this ministry and the environment job, but uh, you know, partying and then never sleeping, and then then you know, you know, it was uh it was it was crazy. It was it was like a whole different world. You know, here I am from going to a cop, you know, being this this this semi-normal life, you know, in the suburbs in Barrie, to poof this overnight. And then that's just the next step. And then after that, things got crazy, I got arrested for something, and picked up and ran away and went to Kaliwit Nunavut in the Arctic. Wow. Yeah, and then just it was just another opportunity that something landed, I had to run away. I was in in some trouble, you know, and uh and then ended up in Nunavut, and within a week of being there, I got a job at Coca-Cola plant. After work, there was these five, six guys smoking smoking like a pinner, pinner, pinner of a joint. And I'd brought a quarter pound of me with me, just of weed, you know, to to keep me through whatever. And anyways, long story short, is is it's it was it was just like a it was a craziness. It was craziness. The the money, and I uh I made in the next year so much money after things got so hot and scary and all that, that mm the girl I was with, we did another escape to White Horse Yukon. You just north, eh? That's what it is. That's what it is. So 5,500 kilometers. Hang on a second now.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Yeah, that's let's let's talk about more about Nunavut. Yeah. Um so what what did life look like there? Like what uh uh like um things got hot there, like you you showed up there, you got a job at a Coca-Cola plant?

SPEAKER_00 12:09

That that wasn't that that's right. That's so after I'd left James Bay, the reserve, which was uh, you know, uh the total shock shock to the system and new to me and everything, just as much was going to be Caliwit Nunavut. You know, like that that's beyond the tree line now, and and it's the Inuit, and and you know, I thought, you know, I'd read some Farley Mowit books. I thought I I was uh I was knowledgeable, eh? And uh and I learned a lot. Once again, I love the land, I love the people, love the experiences I've had, but drugs were the priority. Like it became a full-time 24-hour business where and this was during the biker wars in Quebec, and so there was a lot of things going on there, but I I made substantial amount of money, and it was just craziness in Quebec. So so so they influenced they wanted me to start dealing cocaine up there and all that. It was just so crazy. It was like counting money was a chore. Seriously, like the money we took out of that community. Did you weigh it? Well, not quite like that, but you know, you know, having people, you know, leave with with whatever on a plane and or in an envelope and all that, express posts and shit. We we did all kinds of stuff with bringing weeds and hash in it by by extreme quality, and we started distributing across the the entire Nunavut territory. And uh it's big, it's big money. So so of course RCMP we were there and you know that they they have the resources and then they have some knowledge and information all the time. So um we had to find different ways to bring this stuff in, you know, because uh Nunavut there there's a sea can sea containers that come in uh once or twice a year, or there's there's planes that come in on a daily basis. But you know, so you gotta be creative to say the least. And it was just every every package that would come in would get me more and more and more nervous and to have to distribute it, and more and more people were involved, and it just became uh pretty stressful, and and uh I started doing crack at that time too. So that's the other thing, too. And it was during the biker wars, and they wanted me to start doing the other product, and I were really I I I yeah, I knew there would be no future in that. So I packed up and uh we bought a place in the Yukon. We bought a house, ran new Harley Davidson, pickup drug, da-da-da-da-da-da. And we drove across Canada, and that was a great adventure, rode through Saskatchewan on the bike. That was you, and uh yeah, uh and um and then you know, another adventure awaited in the Yukon, you know, addiction got worse and uh behaviors got worse, and um, you know, still try to lead that double life, try to hold on to a job and be a neighbor and all that, and uh, you know, but that the you know, actions, behaviors become more sporadic and loud and and consequential, you know. So um, you know, the best years of my life and the worst years of my life, like Yukon's beautiful, beautiful place it's close to Alaska, you know, the water and the nature and everything that I'm into, and I had my Harley there, and it was paradise, but I was cocaine, cocaine, cocaine, you know, that's all I thought of. I uh I worked at a local phone company there, uh at their like Bell Canada's or whatever sister companies that take care of the three car uh territories up north, Northwest Tell. And uh I was doing crack in the washroom, like on my brakes and all that. And that you know, like I was that's where it got really bad, and violence, you know, there was some domestic issues, and then you know, I was cheating left and right, but I found out she she she'd been on a trip. We owned a travel agency at the time, and anyway, blah blah blah. So I got in trouble there too. And that's when my addiction pretty much had the best of me, you know, started financially being troubled for the first time in a long time, really. Time for another geographical escape and made my way to British Columbia for a few years. And then I landed in the land of cocaine. Oh boy, like you know, you know, like I was cracked was just like like like out there, Kamloops and Kelowna and Fort Nelson and several of the places I've lived there, and uh, you know, I was a truck driver then and during those years and crazy, you know, and then then my behaviors got really bad, you know, stealing and stuff like that. Crime, crime was a daily part of my life as well. And uh yeah, until uh until uh I lost everything, you know, uh no more bike, uh got my my my my ankles broken by by some guys that I owed some big money from. And uh side note the story, I remember you know how far gone I was, and uh these guys from down south came up to the Yukon. Yeah, this was in the Yukon anyways, and um And I I remember the bones cracking. I remember when they're hitting me, and I remember the bones cracking, and I'm I'm thinking to myself, fuck, I hope they leave soon because I still got about an eight ball left. You know what I mean? So I can finish this. Yeah, you know, that's uh that's when you know that paints a picture. Yeah, that paints a picture.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Yeah, and then uh I remember somebody opening the door the next day or somebody and somebody seeing me and and uh my s my my legs are all swollen and I'm just messed up in the face and everything, and I just yeah. So I've I've tried treatment several times in several different ways. But always had troubles with that.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

So um so tell me more about BC.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Yeah. Yeah, BC uh once again, yeah, you know, beautiful country that I love everything. Like I still have this this quest, this this is this zest for life, like I, you know, the outdoors and then and the mountains and the water and the fish and all those things like I just love, but you know, you're consumed by cocaine. And you're trying to drive, and I'm you know, I'm driving 18 I'm driving a rig across across the this country this province that I don't even know, and and like everything was still like so intense and so much pressure all the time. You know, and trying to pay the bills and the dealers and the uh, you know, the the girlfriend and everything you're trying to run with all the time. I was always all my life burning that candle at both ends. Always, you know, you get twice the light, but burns out in half the time. And um, and I left there with a garbage bag, like a hockey bag of clothes and a German Shepherd on a train. The same one? No, this was a different one by then. Yeah, yeah, that's right. So, so I I got on the train, I called my parents. You know, I said, Mom, I'm coming back home. Uh things aren't working out. You know, we just retired, man. We we really don't want you. You know, and I was like, holy shit, here am I, you know, I'm all upset and you know, conceited. Like I think I was still. Selfish, selfish. Yeah, that's it. Those words, yes. So I ended up in then at my brother's place, which we talk about, and then in in eastern Ontario. He's a school teacher living a good life, his wife's a doctor. You've got a little two-year-old baby, and I moved there, and uh, I started doing uh meetings and all that, and and and really not using cocaine, but doing lots of drinking. He's living out in the country, and I'm I'm working, you know, uh I'm getting in shape again, working in the yard and all that, and uh started doing some AA meetings and met this person. Um, you know, you know, I I'm not I'm totally ashamed and remorseful, and the situation can never be reproduced in a million years, but the situation that led to um uh meeting this person in the in the fellowship um and ended up being convicted for involuntary manslaughter. You yeah, yeah, at the age of forty after all this stuff, you know, after this this life of of you know wanting to be a cop and all that and uh all everything I've lived, come back to Ontario almost full circle after 20 years of being away, geographical escapes, come back, you know, living with my niece, my niece is just just you know, two years and my little brother and all that, and the life was you know, picking up again. I was driving truck, I was uh, you know, trying to stay sober, well, trying to stay away from cocaine, you know. And um and um the situation happened, and I've I relapsed pretty hard. Um this girl I was with um and I, we both got charged for second-degree murder, and uh you know, I I could have took it to court, but but this girl, you know, uh I was tired of first of all, I was disowned by my family by then I'd been in pretrial custody for a year and you know, living with all that shame and that guilt and the remorse and then for learning that the girl that my girlfriend had tried to kill herself in the in the cell. You know, so I I I I accepted a uh you know, uh a deal for involuntary manslaughter if they dropped the charges against her. And um so I I got ten ten ten ten years at the age of forty. You think you know, you know, I think I was this little badass criminal before. But uh So you were still enjoying the lifestyle? Until then. Until then. You know, that lifestyle that I was so attracted to before that I thought was so cool and all that. Until you get to that penitentiary. Uh yeah, not so much anymore. The pen was the worst and best thing that happened to me. I uh I tried to take my life and um they they sent uh a priest to see me with a Bible you know, when I was on suicide watch or whatever. Fuck off. So uh a couple days later they sent an elder, long-haired Indicianist mad guy. Uh we just talked. And the first time I really heard somebody talk, I think. You know, I really like this guy. He's been through all that. You know, he's been through all that. And then look at him today, wow. And he's rented music, and you know, and then we just really, really hit it off, and uh it started my my my my journey into and and as many indigenous people do, you know, they never learn anything about their friggin' culture, uh, you know, and growing on the res or whatever, and I'm not talking for anybody and I'm not trying to insult anybody whatsoever, but you you don't not necessarily expose to to the beauty of the culture or the realities of the culture, just just confusion and dysfunction, usually, you know, is what I'd experience, you know, any cali with the moose and all that, and with my family, you you know, with the shame of not wanting to say you know who we are. Yeah. So so so so it was just kids was confusing. But then it made sense, you know, 500 years of history and history prior to that, and and then you know, lateral violence and intergeneral trauma, and what happened to me, and and then then that trauma and that that that pain that it was hiding, and uh, you know, and then all these things. So I really embraced it, you know. I really I really got into it in prison. Yeah. Um indigenous culture, um, recovery, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, you know, a whole bunch of things. Uh walking the red road. Yeah. Uh so so what did he say? What did he say to you? Yeah, well, he's he's an ex he's an ex-junkie, you know, graduated from university into the rock and roll music, into that little nice little lifestyle at home with a dog, and you know, doing what he has to do with the surviving life legit, you know, and it was like, wow, like this is all the things I want. I I love when I went to college at the age of 18, like you, you know, I took law and security, but I I learned all kinds of things, and it was the language that I spoke all my life. It's it's what I'm interested in is is you know, this justice system that we have, that this this correctional system, the whatever. So, so everything's been a learning experience for me, you know. But school was, and I use this expression in my resume on my Facebook account. I say that I graduated from the school of hard knocks. I do that. That's it. So voila. But yeah, so so so it's 10 years inside. Um, first of all, 10 years without cocaine, not a drop of cocaine, then there was opportunities in the Lord. Yeah, that's it, that's it. But um, you know, it's also and then I finished my sentence here in Quebec at a place called Wasaskin Healing Lodge. It's a healing lodge for convicts, about 30 guys, away from the prison. And for the last year and a half, two years of my sentence, I spent it there and integrated in culture and heritage and then tradition and ceremonies and medicine and all these things and my crafts that I really got into. But but I just my eyes were wide open. I started seeing things through the different eyes, and I started listening to things, and I started so so I I got involved in uh an APEC program in their Aboriginal Peer Education Coordinator program, which was that, you know, it's about peer support. Peer support is about, you know, understanding the the differences in communication between indigenous and non-indigenous or the factors of the past or what what makes it so I was able to like mediate. I was I had some roles that I was able to do, and you know, I there wasn't the harm reduction, and I had an office with condoms and you know, tattoo supplies or whatever. Like so it really, and I I I I I got university and college courses through correspondence.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

And and this is while you're inside.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Yeah, while I'm inside. So I had 14. You had a shop inside? Yeah, it's called the APEC program, Aboriginal Peer Education Coordinator Program. Okay. And uh it's in all the institutions now, and it's about that. It's about you they take a three-week course and uh on like uh grief and loss, on on cognitive skills, on on lateral violence, on you know these things that you're able to to explain to other indigenous inmates and staff. Like I'm kind of in you know, you know. So so i I had identity, purpose, and direction. And that's my that's where I'm at today.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

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SPEAKER_00 28:05

Uh my elder, you know, asked me the first day at me, he says, Who are you? And I never knew. You know, issues with with with identity and whatnot. But um identity, purpose, and direction. Yeah, you know, uh here here's who I am. You know, I'm an addict. Recovering addict. I'm a you know, I'm an ex-con. I'm an ex this, I'm an ex that, I'm a you know, but I'm but I'm a lot of things. You know, I'm not just one thing. So I really got into therapy, I got into into learning, you know, into understanding what happened in a wiring in my brain. You know, that wiring in my brain, when you're at the age of 13 years old, 14 years old, and you start using cocaine with dopamine and joy and all that, uh, there's nothing that's gonna compare. You know, it's not scoring a good goal at a hockey game, that joy, where it's not eating a box of chocolate or a you know, a piece of chocolate, it's not it's not sex, it's not, you know, nothing compares to that instant gratification of cocaine and then crack cocaine at the age of 28 for for for for for 12 solid years, you know, and always trying to maintain that that that appearance, that that, you know, that living that two lives and trying to function in this society still, it's it's exhausted me. You know, and then prison was the same. I was under so much pressure in prison, you know, university courses and these jobs and these expectations and not get caught for smoking dope. Cause, you know, because I would get kicked out of everything. And so, so yeah, so I did my whole 10 years because um because I got revoked and revoked and revoked three times.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

What happened?

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Uh the first time was in 2017. I just got out of, I got parole after seven years, nine years, uh, in West Esken. I left West Esken, went to Ottawa, got a marijuana license, and it was a brand new world after Trudeau, and I was like a kid in a candy store. And the riot squad or the rope squad took pictures of me going into a non-uh-accepted marijuana distributor. I had to buy it from a certain place. I had a license to consume, but I had so that poof, they brought me back in in 2017. They did another three years for weed, you know? And then I came out, and then the Ottawa didn't want me no more, basically. So I said, I'm gonna come to Montreal. That wasn't 2020. Um, just just pretty much the day the confinement started here in Montreal. So I land here, nobody knows anything about me. Uh a chaplain from prison chaplain uh gave me a room, you know, through people that I've met or whatever. So this is I came to Montreal, never been here before, everything's on confinement. They put a bracelet on my foot, you know, which was something else. After having survived 10 years in the pen, in the cage, locked up in a cage, you know, they they they they they they treat you like put a dog in a cage, you know, and shake that cage and rattle it and give it bad living and bad food and bad, you know, cold and wet and hard and and and and you, you know, fill it full of hate. Open that cage door and put it back into into the the real world, that dog. What's that dog gonna look like? You know? So uh I can say that I was one of the lucky ones. You know, I educated myself. Some guys spent all their time in the gym. I spent all my time here and here, you know, in ceremony, and and in learning, and reading, and then in interacting, and listening, and you know, and uh peer support, peer support, peer support, advocacy. You know, I couldn't believe the numbers, you you know. We're 4% of Canada's population, indigenous, Inuit, Metis, you know, but we're we're we're we're freaking up to 38% of the Canada's prison population or something like that. The numbers changed. For women, it's even higher. So you know what I mean? It's it's it's it's craziness. And then so so these things that that that just I wanted to speak out, I wanted to talk. So I started writing. Writing became my first muse. It was therapeutic, it was a you know, it was liberating, it was it was an art form because it was prose. And I spent that revocation three years writing this book that I wrote. And I I this is what I did for three years, you know, while I was inside. I just because I was so angry. I was so angry with the system now that they brought me back in for you know for weed. I told them So came to Montreal, and within two weeks of being out, I um I applied for two jobs. Um PAC, Project Quebec here. It's a it's it's a you know an organization for Indigenous homeless, pretty much, and uh a small organization called ISWP Indigenous Support Worker Project, which is a peer support project, uh guys with backpack on the street, you know, travail the rio. And I got both jobs. They they interviewed people in prison, like like my elders and my uh, you know, teachers from from the university and all that, because you know, the impression or the work that I've done and all that, and they say, yeah, would be perfect for this kind of work, you know, you know, and give him a second chance. So being the guy that I am, I come to my job, I got a shit ass parole officer, really strict, but I get two jobs. And he, you know, he couldn't help but being shut up a little bit about it kind of thing. But I was working 10 to 4 with a backpack on my back during COVID, where the only people on the streets were homeless people. And um, and then I'd jump on the metro and then from 4:30 to midnight, I'd go work in a in an indigenous, wet homeless shelter. You know, so I seen some things. I was doing those, and I was working 70 hours a week. I did it for three years throughout COVID and after. And I've seen more people die in the last five years than most people first of all, should. You know, but but it's it's not army veterans or whatever, like that that I've known so many people that have died so tragically, suddenly, urgently, like unnecessarily.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Are we talking so many drug poisonings and overdose? We're talking about the lifestyle.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Mostly, but yeah, lifestyle related or circumstance related. Yeah. Yeah, violence and drugs overdose. And so it's it's it's it's it's you know, like I said, I burnt myself out. Uh but but it's it's much more than a way of life for me. You know, it's much more than a job for me, I'm sorry. You know, I don't claim to be an expert in anything, you know, no, no big educated guy, no big uh, you know, law uh guy, but I have lived experience. I have 55 years of lived experience, and and then I've I've lived every friggin' minute, pretty much, you know, 100 miles an hour, yeah, or hyperactive to the max. Um, you know, all these things made a difference now. And and I started getting help through um the local hospital here, and then uh a team, a doctor and her team that that believe in indigenous realities and uh and really is making a big difference. So I I'm really implicated in Montreal. I'm really uh I'm really I feel part of a community for the first time. You know, before I was always like like you know, I said the whoever was convenient at the time in my relationships or whatever, and I took people and places and things for granted. You know, I took I took you know jobs and then and everything for granted. You know, all I care about was more and more. But in prison, uh, where everything's taken away, where all you know, where every action you do is is scrutinized and observed and consequential. Um things change, you know. I uh it was an eye-opener, and I don't suggest taking uh the prison route to to try to get sober or better to anybody because uh, you know, if there's any place or reason to get obliviated, it's definitely because of prison. You know, the things I've seen and experienced are terrible. It's a petri dish of of you know. But I've also seen some incredible acts of valor and humanity and you know, some incredible people and some crazy circumstances. It's just it's life. It's life is a is a is a is a complicated thing. When I came out of of Waseskin, this is where I like to say what my life is right now. Waseskin means in Crete, that time right after the storm, you know, the dark colours and all that starts to s and the sun starts coming out. Weskin. I like that. And now like I don't live about uh you know, I don't need that I I'd love to have one, but I I don't I don't you know need that big fancy for shiny hardy anymore and the the clothes and the the the that that status that's yeah I have I have gratitude today like I look forward to jumping out of bed every single friggin' day like you know what I mean I I have a way of life that that's challenging and and oftentimes could they do make mistakes but but they're not as consequential and they're not as they don't invade my sleep anymore or my conscience or my you know then I'm I'm prop you know that there's things that make a difference. You know, cocaine addict could could have a stimulant type type medication to take away cravings or whatever, or or you know, it's things that we should have discussed when I was younger or learned about when I was younger, or known about, or you know, or talked about or listened, but you know, consumed drugs, you know. What's that's that you know, our whole life was centered in drugs in one form or another. Getting and using and finding in ways means to get more in the program and eh, they say.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

So you um you you you keep saying things that that lead me back to um and anyone who knows anything about the program will will hear that language that you use. Um can you tell me a bit about that? I mean, you and also you haven't really mentioned uh anything about spirituality. I mean, you we talked about culture a little bit, we've talked about ceremony a little bit, not not too much, but but what was it um like was that a part of your healing journey when you you sat with that elder and you decided to go a different direction? And you you mentioned the word ceremony, but um you didn't really unpack that. So can you can you help us understand your journey into those things?

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Proper, absolutely, yes, yes, yes, very important. Um, like I said, growing up, I I I was a you know, we were the only family that didn't go to church. Yeah. So the religion aspect was always was always like like I was always unwilling. I went to several treatment centers in the past and um I didn't know anything about treatment or recovery or AA or the programs or whatnot. And that as soon as I got to that second step, like many people you hear about in the programs a lot, until you're open-minded and unwilling and all that, but I was closed-minded and angry and and then even ignorant about this all the subject God. You know, I was just don't talk to me about that. You know, I'm my own God, blah blah blah blah, you know. And uh so so it really caused me grief in in the in treatment centers, my first treatment center. You know, okay, we won't let you do the the steps as regular people do. We'll make you do uh uh 28 days based on anger, you know, because I was so unwilling, uncompromisable. But um I've learned the difference, you know, slowly through the fellowships, um uh you know, about about a higher power, and then and I certainly believe in in something somehow that I don't have to uh explain or understand really, but I I've always believed the places I've lived and the stuff I've seen and the nature and the all that I've always had such a strong connection to, and and like it runs through my blood. It's it's it's just you know, fishing and then all my life and having my feet in the water. And so it's it's just I feel so strongly connected to it. I'm you know, on the emotional, the wheel, the emotional, spiritual, mental, and and spiritual. If one of them is not in the line or properly, it's just a flat tire in that wheel. So so so I I I I'm aware of all four aspects and and and and stay connected through through art in the city. You you know what I mean? I have like elders from from from prison. I have this old elder that's an interior cell that sends me like feathers if he goes hunting or something like that, or or antlers and stuff. And so I I work even in the city, I'm able to, in the metropolitan, I'm able to remain connected through culture and and just through crafts. They call it art therapy today. We've always just called it good medicine, you know. And um part of the work I do today, I'm an outreach worker on the streets of Montreal for a drug harm reduction agency, not just indigenous, but for it's it's it's a great, great organization. And uh the way of my approach is is is is true art a lot. You know, I'm not gonna show up somewhere and then with a cape on my back and uh and say, here I'm an intervention worker. How can I help you? You know, I survived addiction. So I you know, I just I just I have conversations. I don't I don't you know I I I don't make promises I can't keep. I I I do what I say I'm gonna do. I I offer a present, you know, emotional, spiritual, mental first aid, you know, and and physical first aid a lot.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

You said first aid?

SPEAKER_00 42:08

Yeah, I call it a mental, emotional, physical, first aid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. And awesome physical. Yeah, so so so yeah, you know, I I I developed and I maintained relationships. Here I am in a city of two million people, and no matter where I go, no matter what time they're walking here today in a neighborhood that I'm hardly ever come to, somebody that I did a Thanksgiving volunteer the first year I worked on the streets, uh I just ran into her. You know, we're walking her dog. I everywhere I feel part of a community. We live in a cultural mosaic here in Montreal. But but you know, homelessness is a big, big prevailing factor here, as well as many, many, many most other places. But um because of the people I've met, the organizations, uh I I just feel such gratitude in my life, acceptance, humility, you know, all these things that that I didn't know this in my language before, you know, before it was about rock and roll rebellion, that long hair, and that that, you know, anti conformity. But today I just want to, you know, I I want to avoid conflict. I want to, you know, uh I'll never step foot into a cage again, you know. I can't I can't. I won't go back. I won't go back. So, you know, cravings happen all the time and memories invade all the time, and realities, you you know, I uh I did some damage in the this, this the wiring of this brain. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

So when you say that you believe that there's a higher power, and and and without having to try to define what that is, um what would you call your relationship with that? Now, some people believe that that um the higher power is the guiding light, is the like it leads us everywhere we go, that like it's almost like we don't have a choice, right? Other people like myself, I believe it's a relationship. I believe our I believe that my higher power can offer me opportunities. Opportunities, but it's on me to to capitalize opportunities. It's not a free ride.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Hey, God's gonna buy me the lottery. God's gonna got me the lottery. I I do believe in a relationship, and that's what it is. It's about a connectionness. And I've never been connected to other people or places. So it's part of this new way that I'm living. And it it's it's it's a daily commitment. I live in a six-floor building and the sun goes down. And I try to like since I've been there for the last three years, like being there around six, seven o'clock, eight o'clock when the sun's going down, and that that that that strength, that sun in my in my room, in my my apartment window, is just that moment where I every day like like reflect upon, you know, or people just just take that time. And and but would you call that meditation? Mini meditation, yeah. For the guy like me, meditation is almost impossible. I hear you, man. You know, but they just I believe in in in I don't want to say an ultimate plan. There's a reason for everything. I know it seems like a cliche. This woman today that I just saw, like like I say, walking here, there's a reason for it. She could have stopped and tied her shoe. You know what I mean? And I miss me 100%. And this happens like all the time. We're situations like that where there's a reason for things. I I can't uh begin to fathom to try to understand it. I just I tried, you know, whatever religion, whatever you want to say, is to treat others like you want to be treated in life. You know, I just I you know, it's it's crazy times, man, and crazy drugs, and you know, and then people are more desperate and angry and they're a time bomb and they're not getting second chances. Oh, that's yeah, so you know, I've seen too many people die, and too many people die. I just, I just I think about my own death. You know, I think about the damage I left behind, you know. Do I want to be just known as a thief and a liar and a convict and the and then, you know, or this? Yeah, he was those things, but you know, I'm not trying to say I'm trying to uh, you know, tip the scales back to to make up for my wrongs. But yeah, I'm trying to make up for my wrongs, you know? And I I feel pretty good doing it. Like I don't think I'm being slaved into it. I uh it's just more than a job, it's a way of life for me. Um it's not an obligation recovery. Anything can set me off. You know, a spoon can set me off, or a uh a song or a smell or a place, money in my pocket. Sometimes I still smell it. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

Even when it's not around. For sure. Like or dreams and all these things. So did you have any challenges breaking out of that life, like to breaking out with any of the associations that you had? Was there obligations to meet before you could get away from them?

SPEAKER_00 46:55

I uh I I I don't have to look behind my shoulders anymore. I I like I I'm still pretty much like totally into lifestyle. You know, I'm just not actively using or selling. You know, I know who yeah because of my work, because of, you know, my association still and and and whatnot. So, you know, I still my feet are on the bricks. Um my my job is very, I have a really, really I'm lucky to have this kind of work because I have a lot of autonomy and and a lot of uh, you know, I I go throughout the city and I uh you know I learn the information as it changes and every batch that comes in, fentanyl and the fucking shit that goes in and it and the deaths and the where I work last week, we're not even talking about the the we there's two two two locales. We're not talking about the safe injection site. I'm talking about the day center and the back alley. We had 19 overdoses in a week. You know, and and I know these numbers are are unfortunately out west fairly common, but uh this is I don't want to say new to us either, but it's it's it's overwhelming and exhausting and uh concerning and all these words that I keep using.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

And you're you're face to face with this. Oh yeah. Face to face. It's right in front of you.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Yeah, with naloxone administrator, and I try trained. I do naloxone workshops and stuff like that too. And it's just the life I leave. Like I try to tell my mom, who's still around, you know, mom, who would have ever thought you're hating so much I was a little druggie that my whole life today, like yesterday, I had to two meetings, interviews, more or less, from from research, you know, people that wanted to hear the the information I could provide, probably, or we could provide. You know, so I I can't speak for for for indigenous people, for crack addicts, for uh whatever, you know, for categories, but I there there's many characteristics that are familiar to addicts throughout, or or to uh homeless people or uh convicts or or people trying to get better in this crazy world today, or you know, trying to find that sanity, that that healthcare navigation, you know, dealing through the healthcare and the mental health and spiritual.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Yeah. So um so what what's the what knowing what you know and having the experiences that you've had and and dealing with identity and and all and all of the things that that have brought you here. Um and now with the things that you're seeing and being face to face with so much pain and so much trauma, what's the what's what what do you think the problem is?

SPEAKER_00 49:27

You know, if we're talking to talk about indigenous problem, well, it it it's due to these words that that are real nice to use, intergenerational trauma and lateral violence. But we need to understand, you know, as it's 500 years of co-colonialization, it's it's it's the you know the the effects, the domino effects that that it has today. So, you know, you grew up anybody in in a just an unhealthy family, let's say, you know, you're you're gonna have those those those traits? Yeah, those traits and learned behaviors. Right. And well, when when you're four years old or whatever, five years old, and you get snatched away from your family, you get brought into a world that you've you have no idea exists or whatever, and then these people that are claiming to be representing God or authority or or whatnot are are are beating you and then showing you no mercy and no love, which a kid needs growing up, you know, psychological growth, you know, it's just damaged and then and and and and suffocated and abused and traumatized and then whatnot. Like you how you think I have identity issues. You know, they don't know sexually, you know, who they are, they don't know you know where they stand, their value, their worth, and all that. And then they get to get you seeing like a guy comes out of prison and kick you in the ass and see you later. Like, you know, good luck. That's why the urban migration so much, you know, or and then the prisons and then all these things are all reasons for this, are all the domino effects of this, you know, and the addiction trying to to numb that that shame, that, that, that, that hate, that, that, that, that, what happened, that uh misunderstanding. It it's it's so so many, so many layers, so many factors that are making life hard.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

I heard you say um not knowing who they are sexually, not knowing who we are sexually. Yeah. Um you do you think that the fallout from the residential schools and some of the things that happen there are are leaving generations confused about their sexuality?

SPEAKER_00 51:27

100%. 100% for in many, many, many aspects. Yeah, you know, like because of the abuses. Yeah, because of the abuses, and because that then you don't necessarily know, you know, am I into this or not? You know, is this right or not? Because this happened, am I this? Yeah, that's it. That's exactly so. And then you know, and you don't know that love, you don't know that tenderness, you know, that affection necessarily. You you know, I so even heterosexual. Uh you just you're confused and you're angry and you're you're traumatized. You have visions and memories of what happened. And and so so, you know, it's it's it's a hard battle. It's it's it's a harsh reality. So what do you want to do? You want to numb it, you want to escape it, you want to forget about it. And um, so then you don't know. You know, uh, do I like this? Do I not? You know, I'm I am I am I what? Am I what? Who am I? So I've been watching your podcasts, I think it's it's it's it's proper. I need I think dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, communication are essential today, uh are the method. Um when I speak in universities or whatnot, people that are gonna become social workers or whatnot, they say uh, you know, the often more impactful, more meaningful, memorable are the people with lived experience, you know, or them telling their stories and sharing. You know, whether you're a survivor, whether you're you're still actively involved, whatever the case may be, we need to talk. It can't be, you know, hidden behind closed doors. It can't be taboo because it's taboo having a taboo. You know? So this is what I strongly believe in. You know, I don't think I'm gonna uh I'm gonna change the world or change anything drastic or have any, you know, bright idea solutions that's gonna make a thing. I just try to do my part, you know. Uh my elder told me this in prison one time, and I really, really like this. Uh you know, I'm uh uh during all the wildfires, you you know, when uh they have all the wildfires, just the season's starting again, like uh, you know, Fort Mac or whatever, you know, when when all the communities have to evacuate, you know, uh everybody, you know, packs up with their cars and the trucks and then take off. Well, the same thing happens with in our uh we're all interconnected in in this world, all my relations, we say, when all the the animals and whatnot, they also, you know, that that fire that's burning behind them, they they're running away, running away towards the the river. You know, we're talking about the moose and the bear and the rabbits and squirrels and the slide, everything, you know, they're all running be away from the fire and scared and looking behind them, and they get to the edge of the river and and and their fur is singing and all that, and they're scared and they're shaking, and there's you know, the storm's approaching and fire, and they don't know what they're gonna do. They see the river behind them, and then the last thing to show up is that little hummingbird, you know, the tiniest, you know, and then he looks down, he looks at all the people's hurting, he looks behind, he sees the fire, sees the river, jumps in the river, dives in the river, takes a drop of water, picks it up, goes back to the fire, flies all the way back to the fire, drops a drop of water, comes right back. About to go do the same thing, to go to get another drop of water, and then the bears and everybody say, Hey, little hummingbird, what the what are you doing? And the hummingbird just with all its might says, What I can. You know? Yeah, I love, I love relationships. I love, I love, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 54:56

Sounds to me like relationships are really the the cornerstone of your of your healing.

SPEAKER_00 55:01

Yeah, because I didn't really have them before. It was all superficial. It was always, how's the weather? How's the you know, there was there was a reason. What can you do for me? What can you do for me? What can you give me? Yeah. How can I rip you off? Today I try to yeah, you know, yeah. That's that's that that hustle. And that's that's we see some more and more of it because people are desperate, people are afraid.

SPEAKER_01 55:23

Do you ever catch those thoughts coming in?

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:25

Oh, I could probably do this to this person or this to this person.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

Yeah, that's right, eh?

SPEAKER_01 55:30

Does it does it come with a level of gratitude knowing you don't got to be that way anymore?

SPEAKER_00 55:34

Yeah, very much so. Very much so. Like not snapping on the metro or transit system or something, or and saying that to my boss or whoever, or my my my partner, saying like I'm certainly not who I used to be. I'm not who I exactly who I want to be just yet. I'm certainly not who uh who I used to be. Yeah, I uh I love life today. I really do. I say meet which. Yes. Um because I am a graduate of the School of Hard Knocks.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

Pierre, thank you so much for joining me today. Um it's been uh it's been a powerful experience walking with you through your story, and um I suppose that's it for now. Uh I do want to shout out uh Chrism Quebec, uh Isada Sacco and her team for bringing me uh to uh Montreal to sit with Pierre today and uh and take good care, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

It's been a privilege and an opportunity. I say big witch, big witch, merci and uh Hold up.

SPEAKER_01 56:33

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