S5E1: “If You’re Given an Opportunity ... Just Say Yes” | (Hugh Jackman, Award-Winning Theater, Film, and Television Actor)

Hugh Jackman is an award-winning actor of television and film. He is also an acclaimed theater performer who won a Tony® Award for his role in The Boy From Oz. Hugh’s most recent Broadway role was in the 2022 revival of The Music Man, which co-starred Ball State instructor and fellow Tony® Award winning actor, Sutton Foster. 

In this episode, Hugh talks about joining Sutton this month on one of her return visits to Ball State—and he shares his own interests in teaching. He also shares some advice he gave our theater students, and he describes the trajectory of his career from the theater stages of Australia to the film sets of Hollywood.    

If you enjoy this episode, please leave a review to support the show. 

Transcript

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Hello, I'm Geoff Mearns, and I have the good fortune to serve as the president of Ball State University. I'm kicking off the fifth season of my podcast with a very special guest. My guest is Hugh Jackman. Most listeners know of Hugh through his starring role as Wolverine in several Marvel movies. Many of you may also know that he starred in several other movies, including The Greatest Showman, Les Misérables, The Prestige, and Kate and Leopold.

In 2023, Jennifer and I saw Hugh perform as Harold Hill in the Broadway revival of The Music Man. In that musical, Hugh starred alongside Sutton Foster, who has been a beloved instructor at Ball State for more than a decade now. This month, Hugh joined Sutton on one of her many return visits to our campus. He visited with our students and was able to experience what it means to be a Cardinal.

During our conversation, I'm going to ask Hugh some questions about his remarkable career. I will also ask him about his passion for arts education, his own educational journey, and why he believes educators are the real superheroes.

So, Hugh, thank you for being here.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

My pleasure, Mearns. 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

And it's such a pleasure to have you on our campus. And thank you for joining me for this conversation.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Can I call you Mearns?

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

You can. And I think, as you know, I take that as a sign of affection when students shout that out to me.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

The Australian version of that would be “Good day, Mearnsie.” ... But I love it when your students yell out to you. 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Yeah. So do I, so do I. And, and I appreciate it when you, greet me that way, too. 

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Good. 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So, you know, I usually begin these conversations with my guests, talking about their upbringing. And I'm going to get to that, if you'd give me, in just a just a moment. But first, I really want to start with a question that probably most people listening are asking, Why Ball State? Why are you joining us for about 3 or 4 days on our campus?

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Well, I have been thinking for a while about teaching. It's something I, as you said, we’ll maybe get into later, but it was something that was very much instilled in me as a young man, the importance of education. And I was lucky enough to have incredible teachers, not only as an actor, but I did a university degree before that and went to a great high school.

And so I feel I've been the beneficiary of it, and I've sort of had a lot of experience. I've learned a lot, and, I want—I had this desire to perhaps teach and be around young people who I know are thirsty and a little scared of the unknown, and to be somewhat of a bridge. And, I was doing The Music Man with Sutton, and Sutton was telling me about Ball State, about the people, and actually how important it was to her, how much she got out of it, and how it inspired her. And I also watched her as a teacher. I saw her helping with auditions for some of our cast members who were auditioning for other things, and I was like, “Wow, you're a great teacher.” And I said, “If you ever go back, I would really love to come. I would love to just watch you, and I'd love to be there and see it.” And so here we are. And that was it. [PAUSE] Ummmm...sorry that we’re staying at your house—

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

We're delighted to have you there.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

—And we're not leaving.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Well, you can stay as long as you want.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Careful ... I'm Australian. I'll take you seriously.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So I just want to ask you, you know, a couple of days ago, you did what, in your industry, you referred to as a talkback, where you take questions from young performers or aspiring performers. And it was entertaining, engaging, enlightening. It was also inspiring. And I want you to share with the folks who are listening. There was one young woman who's sitting in the front row.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Laurie, am I right?  

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

I think it might be Laurie, and she was very transparent. And she said, you know, she has this feeling of the imposter syndrome. 

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Yeah. 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

She said she's the first in her family to graduate from high school. 

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Yeah. 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

And now she's the first one on a path to be clearly the first one to graduate from college to earn a college degree. And she asked you for some encouragement, and you spoke for a while and then you leaned forward in your chair. Looked directly at her. And you said...

[HUGH JACKMAN]

You deserve to be here. You belong here. You've earned this. This wasn't a favor. You've earned it. And it was very emotional for me because I could see in her she didn't have any example. She didn't grow up with any examples. I mean, high school, let alone college. And so it's understandable for someone to feel that way, to be at college. Like, am I, am I good enough, you know, and clearly...even the question that she was asking, clearly she is exactly where she's meant to be. And that's a quite stark example, but it's something that a lot of people face, I think, in life. I don't know about you, when you started on your journey into academia or as a lawyer, you know, it's ...but particularly in our job it’s the, “Do I really deserve this? You know, I looked up to all these actors. Oh, now I'm” ... I remember hosting the Oscars and freaking out, like I said, yes, because I always say yes to things. And then I was like, sitting on the side of my bed. It was 1 o’clock in the morning when I got the phone call, and I remember just going, what have I done? I'm not Billy Crystal. I'm not ...  I shouldn't be doing this imposter syndrome and then coming to that place of “Hang on, I've done the work, I've done the study, I have experience, I belong here, I deserve it” is a really important step.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

And the other message that you mentioned a moment ago that you reiterated several times during your visit here and during that program, was just say yes. If you're given an opportunity, even if it is frightening, even if it's new—

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Especially if it's frightening. Usually the ones that are the most frightening, that’s the roadmap. That's why you've got to go there. I mean, sometimes there’s genuine fear, like, obviously don't put your hand on the hotplate, right, you know? Like I'm scared of it? Good, don't. But in life with the choices, the ones that scare us are usually the one that's leading us to the area we need to open up. [Bumps mic] Sorry. That leads us into the area we need to open up into. In my business, we call it “What's my edge? What's my creative edge? What are you working on? What's the thing that you're a little bit scared of that you want to go towards?” And in any career, I think you want to be looking for that creative edge. I'm interested. I don't know if I can do it. Certainly in roles, that's what I look for. But as a rule, say yes.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Well, on behalf of that student and all of the students that you've engaged with, certainly you have provided inspiration and encouragement, but you just changed that young woman's life two days ago. So thank you.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

My pleasure. 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So again, before we get to talking about some background, I know you're also between performances of your concert series at Radio City Music Hall.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Mm-hmm. 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Tell us about this one man show. And share with the audience .... they won't be able to see it ... share with them what you do, what’s the grand finale in that performance?

[HUGH JACKMAN]

The grand finale? 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Isn't that the one where you do the jump rope routine?

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Oh, it’s not the finale, but I will share with you about that. Yeah, I have a... there's missing chip up here somewhere. I'm pointing to my head, if you're listening. But I was lucky enough to be offered, I guess, like, an unofficial residency at Radio City Music Hall. They just said, would you like to come and perform once a month? On a weekend? I do a Friday night, I do a Saturday matinee and a Saturday night. So I do three concerts in a month at Radio City Music Hall. And I said, absolutely, I would love to do that. So we started in January and, we finish in October. This weekend I do my well, second to last version of it, and I love it. And it's a ... I describe it and we talk about it before I go on. This is a party. I want it to feel free. I want it to be entertaining. A little surprising. I do things from, Les Mis, from The Greatest Showman, from The Boy from Oz, from different shows that I've done. And I try to keep it a little bit loose so the, from Music Man, you know, and just to see what comes up.

And I had this crazy idea, of doing a jump rope routine. My trainer has a jump rope class, and I said, I want to learn, and I know me. If I don't have a goal, then I probably won't do it. So we created a routine, a jump rope routine. It took me five months to not only learn it, but to get my Achilles and my calf strong enough to be able to jump rope. I'm not as young as I used to be.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So those of you who are listening, if you haven't seen it, you can go on YouTube and you can see, that portion of the performance—

[HUGH JACKMAN]

And this is perhaps, an example of, if you go on YouTube, you’re probably going to see a lot of videos of me not getting it right. I think I got it right for the first time all the way through on about my sixth month. My sixth weekend is when I got it right. So, uh, we're throwing away perfection, right, Geoff?

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Yes. Well, so the one I've seen. You got it all the way. You got it right.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

My publicist did a good job then. [laughs]

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Yeah. So let's start a little bit closer to the beginning. So I understand that in the 1960s, your parents had moved from England to Australia. And that's where you were born. What was it like growing up in Australia?

[HUGH JACKMAN]

I loved growing up in Australia. My, I lived in the suburbs of Sydney. I went to the local public school. I lived in a street and great neighbors. It was safe and had friends. I loved my school. I was the youngest of five children at the time. I now have another younger sister who's 11 years younger than me but growing up I was the youngest of five. It was chaotic. It was busy. There was always something going on. I was it was a very outdoor sort of lifestyle. We went on camping holidays all the time. I mean, I think back to my father— my parents split up when I was eight, I was just raised by my father—and I think about those summer holidays. It was Christmas Day, and at 4 a.m., the day after Christmas, we would all pile into the car. He would have all the food in, like, coolers for the week, and a little camp stove and one tent, a five person tent that—

[GEOFFREY MEANRS]

For seven people? 

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Six. So, my father and five kids, and he would cook on a little stove and I'm like, that doesn't sound like much of a vacation. He was a chartered accountant. He worked for Price Waterhouse and I'm like, yeah....But, we—I played a lot of sport. I did a lot of arts and music, music, and musicals. I was involved in everything. I was a busy kid. I said yes to everything. I grew up very much in a Christian church family. I was involved in all the church things growing up and it was a busy, busy life. Australia was a wonderful place to grow up.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So you mentioned—we're going to come back to this a little bit—you said you were a performer while you're in high school? 

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Yep.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

At that time, did you think you were going to do this as a career?

[HUGH JACKMAN]

No no no no no. I didn't really think about it till I was 21 or 22. I went—I did go to a school that had a lot of arts, so we would do plays. We were allowed to put on our own plays. I remember when I was like 16, they would give us the space, we'd build our own sets, we’d put on plays. I was in the musical every year. I went to an all boys school. The only time we interacted with girls was when we were in the musical, so everyone signed up. It was a big deal. I did the play every year, but it was also one of those schools at the time that ... the end goal is you're a lawyer, you're a doctor, you're, you know, you're one of the professions and acting or sport, they're wonderful things for the rounding of the human being. But that's not a job.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

That's right. You got to get a real job.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Right. And so it never really crossed my mind, until much later.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So, after you graduate from high school, you did a brief stint teaching as a phys ed teacher in England. 

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Yep.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

And then you returned to Australia, went to college, and you earned a bachelor's degree in an institution in Sydney. But it wasn't in theater. It was in communication? 

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Yeah. 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Were you going to be a journalist?

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Yep. I was going to be a radio journalist. That was sort of my goal. Umm...you know, so many twists and turns. So in Australia, well, before you go on a gap year, you say where are you going to go to university. You get in, and then you apply for a gap year, probably the same as here right?

And gap year in Australia is very popular because our college system, you go straight into studying the specialty. So there's a common agreement that no one really knows when they're 18. Very few people know. So I enrolled actually in law and economics, a dual degree. And then about halfway through my gap year, I was like, hang on a second. Oh, I think I chose economics because my dad was an accountant and my brother was a lawyer, so I was just following in their footsteps. And then I, came back and I went and studied this cause that I thought was more people orientated around communications. And I quickly sort of—I gravitated towards radio and radio journalism, and I thought what I was going to be was a stringer. A stringer is someone who goes around the world and just files stories. You know, you may work for a company or you may be independent. But I wanted to travel and I wanted to tell stories. Hello, I'm still doing that, right? 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Right.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

But that was sort of my goal. And in my last semester—I'll try and keep this short [GEOFF: Yeah, please.]—I, by happenstance, enrolled in a theater class that also by happenstance, did, for the first time in its history, an actual play. It was a theory class, and I was by random, by ballot, given the lead part. And it was my final semester. I had my thesis to worry about, and I ended up spending 90% of my time on the play. And that's where the alarm bells were going off in my head, that perhaps something else was calling me in journalism. Ummm...and so, from there I auditioned for drama school.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Right. So you completed your communications degree—

[HUGH JACKMAN]

I did.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

—but as you were completing it, you knew that it was something else that had your passion.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Yes. But honestly, I already knew the reality of going into acting. I had no actors in my family. There was no one around me who was into it, so I didn't have any examples. I didn't know how you did it. I was also aware that it probably wouldn't happen, you know? So I thought, you know what? I'll dip my toe in for a year. And I did a three—I did a course at the Actor's Center in Sydney, which was three days a week. And I worked to pay for it, and I did that. But six months in, I was ... I was so bitten by the bug. I was so in, I knew that I'd found my path.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So that was just a one-year program, right? 

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Right.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

The institution you talked about. So then, as I heard the other night, because you caught that bug, you enrolled in a three year program. Tell us about that.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

So I went and auditioned for the West Australian Academy of Performing Arts, commonly known as WAAPA. And, it's one of 2—2 or 3 at the time—of the best institutions, I guess, in Australia, places to study, like a conservatory. But what I didn't tell you, Geoff, the other day, and I tell this because maybe students are listening to it. I—randomly a long story, basically I was offered a part in a soap opera, but it was an elevated soap opera. It played on air at 7 p.m. every night. It was a soap opera that, for example, Margot Robbie and Chris Hemsworth and Guy Pearce all were on it. So it was a quite well known—

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

And this is while you were still studying?

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Yes. In that first year. I was given an offer, a two year contract, and I remember they were going to pay me $2,000 a week. I was like, [gasp] I just couldn't believe it. And on that same weekend that I was given that offer, I auditioned, because I'd already been planning for this prestigious school, and I was offered a spot there, and I had the weekend to decide which one I was going to do, and I had absolutely no idea what to do. And I went to my father and I said, I don't know what to do. And I remember him looking at me, saying, “I can't actually answer that for you, as you're 22 at this point and it's a decision you need to make.” And I was like, Ahhh curses. Please just tell me what to do! 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Give me the answer.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Give me the answer! Over the weekend, something kept coming back to me that my father had always instilled in me. In all of this, he said, always take the option to be educated. So when you go out into the workforce, it doesn't matter what you want to do, you want to have the confidence that you have had the education. That you belong, that you deserve to be there. The same message I gave Lori, you deserve to be here. So I asked myself, okay, I've been offered a soap opera role, but would I feel like I deserved an audition at the Royal Shakespeare Company in England, and the answer was no. I didn't have any skills, the skills or the experience, and I wanted to be able to go to Broadway, go to London, do film, do TV. I knew I wanted that, so I thought, no I'm not ready for that. So I remember saying to my father, I'm going to go to drama school. And I remember he went, oh, thank goodness. And I said, you knew all along? And he said, of course, but you needed to come to the—and I said, why couldn’t you have just told me? It was a torturous weekend but some good parenting, I think, don’t you?

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

And I was going to come to that-- put a pin in that, I want to come back...but I just want to elevate what you said because, you know, when I was growing up, the default was always to go to college, if you could.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Okay, great. 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Now there's a narrative out there. Oh, you don't need to get a college degree, go directly into the workforce. And so it's interesting for you to send the message ... now, and my view is, those choices are not necessarily for everyone [HUGH: I agree.] But I think it does push back on the narrative that you don't need college. It depends upon what your aspirations and what your values are.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

100 percent, I agree. 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Okay, so now I put a pin in it. Tell us what—you are a parent, you have two children—what did that experience, teach you about how you would raise your children, particularly as they matured, as they became 18, 22, 25?

[HUGH JACKMAN]

It's helped me allow them to have their journey. And what might seem like a mistake to me or, don't do that. Don't. Please. No, don't do that. Do this. Uhhh...trusting that they have to live their journey. I'm not talking about a 9 or 10 year old, obviously. This is... I was 22, and I think my father had a wisdom in...he had a definite idea of what I should do. And I guess luckily for him, I chose the one he thought. Umm, but I think it takes great restraint and trust and what it ultimately tells your child, I think, is I trust you. I trust you as an adult to that you're on the path and that you're the leader of that path. And it's an important step from childhood to adulthood, you know? I think.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So while you were studying, what did you say? WAAPA? [HUGH: Yeah] Western Australia Academy of Performing Arts. [HUGH: Very good] I see why they go with that term. [HUGH laughs: Totally] And that was in Perth. During that time, did you have a particular teacher, somebody who was inspirational or transformative in your own development? Is there one or two instructors that you recall from that period?

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Chris Edmund, Dean Jones. These were wonderful teachers, but the one I really want to highlight was, Lisle—Dean Carey, I said, Dean Jones, he's an Australian cricketer—Dean Carey and Lisle Jones. Lisle was a legend of the school and he was—he announced his retirement when we came in to first year, that he was going to retire with our year. So our course was three years. So the end of ours was the end of his life of teaching. He'd been a professional actor in England, in Australia, and then dedicated his life to teaching. And he was an amazing teacher, and I learned so much from him and stayed in contact with him, and got his advice on things, worked on some things with him and he, he was he taught me a lot, not just about acting, but about, attitude and about professionalism. He was a little bit old school. If you were 10 seconds late, the door was locked. It didn't matter what had happened on the way. And his theory was, when an audience buys a ticket to your show, no one cares if you've had a bad day or you've had a fight or what's going on. They're there to see the show. So you need to find a way...

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

And the curtain will go up. 

[HUGH JACKMAN]

It goes up. And it doesn't go up at 8:01, it goes up at eight. And you need to be there and be on time. So he was old school. But he was a wonderful—he wanted everyone to succeed. He was a little tough. He wouldn't just sort of give it up to you if you weren't quite there. But he was encouraging and he gave me so much good advice. And I use so much of what he gave me to this day.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Were you ever—did you ever have the opportunity, as your career blossomed, to share that sentiment with him? 

[HUGH JACKMAN]

I did. And I'm so glad I did. He passed away probably ten years ago now, but I used to go and visit him. He actually, when I got married, he performed the sonnet. “Let me not into the marriage of two minds admit impediment...” And it was so wonderful to have him up there in the church. And, uh, I would go and sit with him and he would ask how I'm going. And it was a classical theater training. So we did Shakespeare. We did theater. There wasn't a lot of TV or film, but he gave me a couple of—apart from all the great bits of advice about acting— he gave me some really practical ones. I shared one of them the other night. It was, if happen to make any money in anything now, you won't make much money in the theater. But if you do anything where you make a bit of money, buy a house, he said. Because you know someone will give you a meal any time. But no one wants you to stay more than three nights on their couch, so buy a house. He also said to me, he goes, I know we've given you a theater training, but to have a career, you going to have to do film as well. So study film, take any opportunity you can to learn how to act on film and, and try to balance the two, which I've tried to do ever since

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So, in just a moment, I'm going to transition to some questions about your career. But I also want to invite you to share your view about the value of an education in the arts. As you probably know, there is an emerging narrative discouraging young people from pursuing an education or even a degree in arts. What do you think? It's 2025. What is the value? Even with the passage of time and the advent of more technology, what is the value of an arts degree today?

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Whatever your discipline—I took acting, there's musical theater, there's dance, there's fine arts, there’s all different forms of art—not only are you exposed to great teachers, you're given the time to develop, to understand who you are. This is how it helps the individual. You're given time to fail. You're given time to make mistakes, to fall on your face without it being the end of your career. You're given time to work out who you are, what you want to say, and you're nurtured through that process. You're pushed, you're challenged. You're also forced to work with others. And I think, as part of the larger and maybe you can speak to this actually even better than me, I think it's a really culturally an important part of a college campus. As the art is an important part of the community of our life. We come together and always have. It is not new, so .... around the campfire, telling stories, every indigenous culture has a tradition of storytelling. The Greeks obviously took it to another level, and then it has gone on and on and on, but it has always existed. And a society that values the arts actually, generally, thrives. The artist asks questions that others may not even think of. The artist brings people together. The artist can help build community, can help build meaning. So I think a sign of health in a civilized society is one that values the arts. And I've been a beneficiary of it.

And I do understand that there is some threat to it, like what's the actual practical point of it? But every single person listening to this podcast, whether you go to the theater or not, there is a movie that you watched that changed your life. There is a story you heard that changed your life. There is a book that was read to you as a kid that changed your life, and those stories unite us. They unite us. Actually, if you don't mind, I'd love to hear what your perspective is as a president.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Yeah. So I would say on two levels: one, the first level you spoke about, we are so proud of the arts, the diverse arts and culture that we have on our campus that we provide to the community. As you said, we believe it enriches the experience for our faculty, our staff, our students, our alumni, and our friends and neighbors. It's an enriching part of being on a college campus. The second piece that you mentioned a moment ago is when we think about what arts does in terms of speaking to the human condition. [HUGH: Right.] Technology has changed. Human nature has not changed much in the last 3 or 4000 years. So if you have questions about the conflicts that exist, either in terms of politics or nations or people, read history. Read the Greek tragedies, read Shakespeare. The human dynamic, the tensions, the passion, both positive and negative, has been portrayed in the arts, particularly drama and poetry and novels. Now movies. You can learn about the human experience. 

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Yeah. Not only learn. For me, the purpose of the artist is to melt the heart of the audience. That's what you’re there for. So people can come in, and by the end, strangers can feel like we're all connected. They might rise and stand. But you feel you've had a shared experience. You've cried, you've laughed. You know, it really is powerful when it works. And the other thing I want to add, and what I've noticed here at Ball State, is the new Performing Arts Center is connecting the local community. It's down there in the Village. It's going to feed into local businesses and restaurants, and there's a connection. High school students are going to see Romeo and Juliet in a week's time. You know, you have a planetarium here. What is a planetarium? It's storytelling. That beautiful thing is just telling the story of who we are, where we are in this world, and expanding our minds. And you invite all those kids in. And this connects a community so that college or university is not some separate thing, sitting up on a hill where some people go and some don't. It's part of the community, and that's when it's most successful. And I do think the arts within that has a special place.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

I agree. Okay, back to your career, your life and your career. One of your first big breaks after you graduated from WAPA was being cast as Gaston in a production in Melbourne of Beauty and the Beast. And then you kept landing roles in films in Australia and television shows. But your big break on an international level occurred in 1998 when you performed in Oklahoma!

First, what were those early years like as a performer? Were you thinking about having to choose between theater and film or television? Or were you just like most of us starting out, just grateful to get paid and be able to pay rent for your apartment? 

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Yeah. Grateful. I couldn't believe it. I was working. And maybe some seniors are going to relate to this: I remember being terrified for the month before I graduated, because I'd been in this bubble of being able to turn up. If you weren't great the night before in the show, you still turned up the next day, and you may have got a hard time in the note session, but you know your friends would gather around you.

But in the business, no one gives you feedback in an audition, you get the job or you don’t. Now I was like, oh, now it's brass tacks, like, am I going to work? So I was working, but it all took a left turn from the beginning, Geoff. I was in the theater program, not musical theater. So when my agent said, I've got an audition for a musical, Beauty in the Beast, I was like, A musical? What do you mean? Yeah, I can't find anyone. So just grab a song. And I had one piece of music, which I'd got from drama school, and I went along and auditioned, and it surprised me, and then I—it went well. And then I got another, I got Sunset Boulevard, another musical, and then all of a sudden I was listed— I remember going past, there was a thing I did for Christmas. It was a Christmas thing. And they asked several people, what are you doing for Christmas? And I remember they asked me. I was like, Oh, I'm one of 12 people being asked, what am I doing for Christmas? And it said, What are they doing for Christmas? And I don't know, it had whatever I wrote. And then at the bottom it said Hugh Jackman, Singer. And I went, Singer? No, no, no, no, I'm an actor. I'm not a singer. Hang on. And all of a sudden, I was like, oh yeah, I haven’t had an acting audition for six months, hang on a second. [gas] And I realized I was in this lane of musical theater, where the actors film, theater, thought, “Oh, no, that's performing. That's not acting.” And I mean, the irony is you've never worked harder as an actor in your life than when you're doing musical theater. And I couldn't get an audition, so I had to actually back off from doing anything until I started getting auditions again. And then Oklahoma! came along. 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

And then the next major inflection point for your career was 2000. You were cast as Wolverine in the first X-Men film. And that role, as I said, it kind of changed the trajectory of your career. Tell us about how you were selected for that role and the process of becoming that character which you've now played, what, six, eight, ten times?

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Ten.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Yeah.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Yeah. Who would have thought 25 years later I'd still be playing it and loving it more than ever.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

When you performed as Gaston, you never thought you'd be coming in as the Wolverine.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

The audition, I probably did about 6 or 7 auditions over about a nine-month period. The first one was a worldwide casting call. I was sent three pages. I'd never heard of the comic book. I remember looking down at the script and seeing, Snikt. “Snikt” was the word. I'm like, Snikt. Claws come out of his hands. I was like, oh, hang on a second, I don't know what I’m in for here. And I went in to audition, and it was it was in between, I was doing Curly in Oklahoma, and I had a perm. They made me have a perm. Curly. And I went in between the matinee and the evening to do this audition. I had to run from the theater and just whip off that Curly outfit. I ran in and, this was a little bit of luck. I was in there and I was waiting to do my audition, and all of a sudden I'm freaking out. I got to get back to be onstage. And I was waiting, waiting. Someone else was auditioning. And finally I said to the person, I said, if I don't go in the next five minutes, I can't audition for this, you know? And I was nobody. It was a world—I mean, there's 6 million people. I said, fine. And so I went in there, and by the time I went in, I was really frustrated because I was going to be late. And they were a little bit like, you should be so lucky to get an audition. And I'm like, I'm on West End. Like, I don't even know what this is. Snikt. Claws. What? I went in a little bit annoyed. A little bit impatient. A little bit .. ornery. 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Yeah.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Perfect for Wolverine. But I remember doing one take, and I remember the casting agent saying, maybe you put a baseball cap on your head. The perm is not really great for this character. [laughs] But anyway, I got a call back. I remember them saying, we want you to come back and perhaps lose the Southern accent. So obviously I was still just doing Curly from Oklahoma.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So you also shared, I think recently, a story about you didn't think a wolverine was a real creature. Tell us that story.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Yeah, um, okay. I'm from Australia and everyone listening to this in America, we have a lot of animals and insects and reptiles that you've never heard of. So just forgive me when I say I thought Wolverine was made up. I did. I’d never heard of a wolverine. So when I heard comic book character Wolverine, I was like, oh, I get it. It's like some comic book writers come up with an animal. It's like part wolf, part man. Got it. So when I got the part, I assumed it was fictitious. And I was passing an IMAX in Toronto where we were filming, and there was a documentary about wolves. And I just literally went in, I said, I'm going to go watch it. And so I did all this animal work that I learned at drama school, and I learned how to look like a wolf. And, you know, I learned that wolves always are looking down because they're actually smelling the ground even when they're—they're smelling. So that's why they're always looking down and looking up. And I was like, oh yeah, this is excellent, so I'm coming in and doing this rehearsal. The director is like, what are you doing, man? And I said, well, you know, I've been doing some wolf work, and I thought it'd be cool to—and he goes, why are you doing wolf work? And I said, well, you know, Wolverine, he’s part wolf. And he goes, no, it's a wolverine. I said, well, there is no such thing. And he said, go to the zoo. And I did. I went to the zoo and I was like, oh—

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

That thing. [laughs]

[HUGH JACKMAN]

That thing. Yeah. So forgive me, comic book fans. 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

But yeah, so you thought you were done playing Wolverine after the movie Logan came out in 2017. But what made you decide to appear last year in Deadpool & Wolverine?

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Well, I really felt I was done. I was really proud of Logan. It was, in some ways, all the things I'd wanted to portray in the character that for whatever reason, we hadn't really got to. And I saw the first Deadpool movie not long after I had announced that Logan would be my last, and I immediately in my head saw a movie that I grew up watching called 48 Hours, which you'll remember Geoff, with Nick Nolte and Eddie Murphy, and the dynamic between those two characters. I was like, oh, and I thought, oh, that's completely different. But then I put it out of my head because I was like, no, you said you quit. Don't be one of those people who says they're retiring and comes back. No, I said I was going to quit, I'm going to quit. And for about five years Ryan would ring me, say, come on, do it, we got to do it. And I said, I know it's a good idea, but I'm out, I'm out, I'm out, I'm out. And I was literally driving one day. And the thought in my head, it was actually my agent rang me about a week before and said, dude, you're at this point in your career, you can do anything you want. Like, what do you want to do? I said, I'll have to think about it. So I was driving out, my kids had headphones in, so I was just driving. So my mind was just going. And that question came to me, what do you want to do? And just like that, I was like, I want to do Deadpool and Wolverine. And I knew in my gut right there, that's what I wanted to do. And I knew Ryan was preparing for Deadpool 3, and I thought, they may be about to shoot. I literally got to—I pulled over, actually, and I said, I need to talk to you. And I said, I really want to do it, but I think you're about to shoot. And I know Ryan, it's hard for him doing the whole thing with the mask. And I thought, if he's doing Deadpool 3, we won't do this movie for years. And he said, I can't believe you've just called me. He said, we are just about to get on the phone in two hours with Marvel, and we're about to tell them that we don't really have anything for Deadpool 3. Are you okay if I say we want to do Deadpool and Wolverine? And I said yep. And at that point I thought I should probably tell my agent that I've just committed to—

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

A major production. [laughs]

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Yeah, a major production, but that's what happened. He rang. And actually he said to me, he said, we’d put in various pitches for Deadpool 3. And Marvel said, guys, I think we’re gonna punt it, I don't think we've got anything. And Ryan said, okay, well, how about...and he said Deadpool and Wolverine. And it just went dead quiet. And Kevin Feige apparently said, are you serious? And he said, yep. And that was it. The next day we got the green light.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So one of the things you shared with the students, again the other night, was go with your gut.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Yeah.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Was that was that going with your gut, making that film? 

[HUGH JACKMAN]

100%. Because we all have agreements, right? We have agreements of who we are, the way we act, what we say. And honestly, if I'm really honest, Geoff, I think one of the—[sighs] I said I wasn’t going to do any more, I said I was done. What are people going to think? They're going to think he's just taking a check. Are they thinking he's? And it was none of that. But I was worried. And I thought, take away what anyone else thinks. What does my gut say? My gut’s saying, do this, do it. You want to do it. I was so excited by it. And so that was it. But that comes with time. And of course, when you start as an actor, pretty much in any job, your gut is one thing. But a lot of the time you got to pay the rent, you got to do a few things that, you know, you got to earn your stripes a little bit. But learning to trust your gut is something that I value so highly. And it really —after X-Men I... I'll do a little detour about that. [GEOFF: Please.] It's what cemented for me that I have an instinct and follow it, even if it doesn't make sense. After X-Men I, I got an offer to do this stage show called The Boy from Oz. Now in that period I was telling you about where I was pigeonholed into musical theater? They had offered me The Boy from Oz, and I said no because I needed to get back into film, you know, like just normal plays. And when I saw that production that I turned down... my palms started to sweat, and I knew I'd made a mistake.

And I vowed right there that I would never make a strategic decision again, that if —because when I heard the pitch for that musical, I was like, this is incredible. And when I saw it, it was incredible. So they rang me, the producers, and said, we’re transferring to Broadway, will you do it? And I just halfway through the sentence, I said yes. And a lot of people at the time, not my agent, were saying, this is a really bad idea. You've had a big success in your first film. It's X-Men. Trust me, Hugh, you've got to ride the wave. You're on a wave. Don't get off and go and do Broadway for 18 months and think the wave is still going to be there when you come back. It could well—your moment could have gone. Ride the wave. Ride the wave. The only person who said, “Go to Broadway” was my agent. And I went. It was, you know, ultimately it was successful. But more importantly, I knew I was in the right place. And so many things came out of that. Working with Darren Aronofsky. Spielberg came to see that show and offered me to host the Oscars. I can't tell you how many opportunities came, but from that moment on, I thought, I'm going to trust my gut, even if it doesn't make sense.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So speaking of these musicals you've performed in now in a wide variety, as you said, The Boy from Oz, The Music Man, long list. I'm not going to ask you to pick your favorite one. I've got five children ...it would be like you asking me, which is my favorite child. It would put me in trouble. But tell us about a role in which preparing for a particular role on Broadway was either particularly attractive, interesting, challenging. Tell us just one role that you relish—

[HUGH JACKMAN]

I'll go back to The Boy from Oz. The Boy from Oz was, to this day, the most challenging thing I've ever done. I think I had to sing 22 songs every night. By the end, I had stress fractures in my feet. I limped across the line. I would ad lib every night for 10 or 15 minutes. It was a wild party and I never knew what was going to happen. It took everything for me to get through it, and I've never had more fun, and preparing for it was frightening. I'd never been on Broadway before. I was playing a character that was very different to me. It was a new musical. I had no idea. And...[sighs] in truth, we opened to average reviews. I don't read reviews, so I didn't know. And I remember thinking, oh, I thought the opening night was awesome. I thought it went really great. Came to work the next day, we had a circle up on stage. The producers were there and the producers were like, and I was like, [sound effect]. The producers were like, listen, um, I know you're probably all scared that we're going to close, but, we're going to keep it open at least through January. So just want you to know that you've got at least a couple of months. And I was looking around, going, I thought we were a hit? We weren't. But from that, I was miffed because I was like, okay, I'm on stage and my gut is telling me this really works. I can feel this connecting. I could feel it. You know on stage, you know, if it's working or not. It's like being a stand up. You just know. And okay, we didn't get the reviews. Fine. By the end, I think we broke every— and we struggled. There was periods where we were just over half full going through the winter, but I had that feeling within and so I never gave up hope. I knew and then gradually it was a word of mouth thing. So it was very rewarding. And I learned a lot, I think I really it was a big turning point in my career. 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Yeah. So this trusting your gut is not just about making the initial choice. It's also about persisting when people are doubtful.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

See, that's why you're an educator. See, look at that.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

Yeah, I’ve had some of those experiences. But the listeners are more interested in your experiences than mine.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

[laughs] But yeah, it's true. And maybe you got to have a come to papa moment when it's time to admit, okay, things aren't going according to plan here. And people are gently trying to tell me ...so, but I just knew. Your gut will tell you. And that does require you to be honest with yourself and maybe have some trusted people around you to say, hey, what's happening here?

Am I missing something? Am I down the wrong path? But when you feel it in your gut, don't worry about what anyone else says.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So I mentioned during our conversation that you went to this talkback. Participated in that. I know you've also seen some performances, you've seen some rehearsals, you've seen some classes. Tell us one about your initial impression of the quality of our students, their performances, and what else have you shared with them? In those, you know, watching the rehearsals and giving feedback?

[HUGH JACKMAN]

The Ball State students are world class. That's just simply it. I've been in conservatories myself. I've talked and I've been around to—I haven't taught, but I've been to many places. It's world class. What I think distinguishes the program here is, first of all, the amount of the variety of things that you are encouraged to do. The crossover between departments. Not something I experienced. Where people are encouraged to dip their toe into musical theater if they're just from theater or perhaps into dance, or perhaps into other areas. So they get to explore. And so that during your time here, you can morph and change and see where the road is leading you. But what really distinguishes Ball State from anywhere I have seen is this culture of the ensemble—that everyone is there for everyone else. It is the opposite of selfish. It is very encouraging. It is warm, it is open. It is enthusiastic. It is people are—people are rooting for each other. I genuinely feel that. Everyone wants everyone to succeed. That? As a place to learn the arts? You need a place in the arts—actually in anything—you need a place to fail. I mean, I always go back to Djokovic. He only won 53%—he's only won 53% of his points in his career. [GEOFF: Right.] Won more Grand Slams than anyone. Which means, I guess, if you're thinking success or fail, he’s failed 47% of the time. I've failed ... you're not going to mention them in this podcast, but I can't tell you how many things I've failed at or I haven't got. You need a place to fail. You need a place where you feel it's okay to fail. Now. Before you go out there, you know, before you get so —to develop your skills. And that is here. And in terms of your other question about what I'm telling the students. At that age, I remember it. They have people they look up to, they have performances they have seen. They ... impatient. It's part of the—it's natural. Uhhh I want to be able to do that. Why can’t I do that? What's the quickest way for me to get there? How do I develop my voice? My dancing? Or my acting? Orrrrr. I find out how to cry in a scene. I want to do it now. And I think the main message I'm saying to them, because I can see from the outside that they're world class, that they're all going to make their way, that they're good people, that it's all going to open up. And with experience, I can see that they're exactly where they meant to be. And, you know, I guess that they're not ... I don't know if they'll take it in. But hopefully somewhere, they'll realize not to be too hard on themselves.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

And that impatience, again, going back, you used a sports analogy. Sometimes you hear experienced athletes say, Let the game come to you. [HUGH: Rigghhtt.] You don't always need to force, you know, let the—if you have confidence in yourself let the game come. And sometimes it's reacting.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Yeah. Champions adjust. Billie Jean King, you know?

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So, a couple more questions before I get to my last one. In addition to being a performer, in addition to being an educator, you also are a very generous philanthropist. Tell us about the causes that inspire you to share your good fortune with other people.

[HUGH JACKMAN]

Umm... I think I’m very much inspired by my father, who...He was an accountant, so everything was very ordered. But from as young as I remember, he encouraged us to put 10% aside. A tithe. He was a religious man, but put 10% aside. Give it to the church. Later on, if you're not going to be part of a church, give as much as you can back. Look after yourself. Make sure you needs are taken care of. But give it back and he did that in his life. He was generous with his money, but even more his time. When he retired, he volunteered, for I think about ten years, he would just go to places. He went to Fiji, went to Thailand, he went to Bangladesh, all these places. He did a lot of work in his career with the World Bank. And he would... my dad was like basically the senior partner of Price Waterhouse, and he would go and work in Bangladesh for a rent a car company with 15 employees ... and just go and spend three months and get their books in line and give them advice.

And they could never afford my dad, you know? And so that's what he did with his retirement. So I had that example. And in particular we grew up a lot with this idea of the world, that there is a lot of extreme poverty in the world, and that it is made by us. It's not natural. As Mandela famously said, It's up to us to fix it. There is more than enough food, there's more than enough resources. It's up to us to work out how to distribute it. And so I think those ... working with World Vision or working now with Global Citizen, that has informed me. And I think also I've been very blessed in our business to have opportunities and to be paid extremely well. So I do quite a lot within our own industry of making sure people are supported. The people who worked a lifetime, perhaps behind the camera, perhaps in the areas where now they're struggling, and they haven't been able to get paid in the way I've been paid. So I try and give back in that way as well.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So we refer to that as beneficence. [HUGH: Yeahhh]. And a couple of days ago when we did the tour of campus, I paused to tell you about that beautiful statue. That statue of Beneficence represents who we aspire to be as people. At its core, it means doing good for other people. So this is a tough question, since you've only been aware of Beneficence now for 48 hours. But, in that 48 hours, what does beneficence mean to you?

[HUGH JACKMAN]

That your actions speak louder than your words. That's how I understand it. It's how you are in the world. It's how you are with people. Yes, it's how you are with money. Like, do you give money? But it's the little things. You don't have to have money to practice beneficence. Did I get it right? 

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

You got it. 

[HUGH JACKMAN]

It's just saying hello to that homeless person in the street that everyone walks past. It's maybe even just looking them in the eye and saying hi. Are you okay? Is there anything? Yeah ... how are you feeling today? It's simple things. It's big things. It's an attitude, I guess. My father was converted by Billy Graham. He was not raised in a religious family, became a Christian. And I was brought up in the church. And I never forget this. I ... I really, really I got a fish symbol as a badge. And I said, Dad, I want you to wear. Why don't you wear the badge to work? Then everyone's going to know you're a Christian. You should wear the badge to work. And he says, I don't, Hugh. I don't wear it, because I feel that people should know I'm a Christian by my actions, not by a badge or by my words. And I very rarely heard him talk to people, say, oh, I'm a Christian. But he was a generous man in his actions, and so I took a lot from that.

[GEOFFREY MEARNS]

So, Hugh, thank you. Thank you so much for coming to campus. Thank you for joining me for this conversation. Very grateful to you. 

[HUGH JACKMAN]

It's my pleasure. Thanks. Thanks, Geoff. Thanks, Mearnsie [laughs]