54 Coaching Client Spotlight: Jin Kim-Mozeleski, PhD

Dr. Jin Kim-Mozeleski is an Assistant Professor at Case Western Reserve University in the School of Medicine in the Department of Population and Quantitative Health Sciences. Her work examines social determinants of health behaviors and health behavior change and she applies that to the study of tobacco use and tobacco-related health disparity.  She is also an alumnae of our Get That Grant coaching program.  

Take a listen to hear some real behind the scenes of her coaching journey:  

• How she overcame anxiety that manifested as indecisiveness 
• The mindset shift she implemented  that up-leveled her productivity precision 
• How the balance of inner work with the external factors transformed her experience 
• What has helped her to muster up the courage to do things that don't come naturally to her 

If you loved this convo, please go find Jin on Twitter (@JinKimMoz) and show her some love! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

you know, the system is designed really not to have you thrive, then it also does not serve us to be in the default conversation of academics, which is it's all terrible and you can't get anything done. If your goal is to get something done anyway, then there's a freedom in unhooking from that. And I think some people like we can see that, but not know what to hook into. I think that's what get that grant is about is like unhook from that hook into this, because this is actually something that's building you, you as the resource, right? Like not the institution, not the center, not this dataset, you as the resource. And that is so exciting to me because that means you can go do whatever you want. Hello, you are listening to your unapologetic career. Being a woman of color faculty in academic medicine who wants to make a real difference with your career can be tough. Listen, these systems are not built for us, but that doesn't mean we can't make them work for us. In each episode, I'll be taking a deep dive into one core growth strategy so you can gain confidence and effectiveness in pursuing the dream career you worked so hard to achieve. All you have to do is tune in to your unapologetic career with me, your host, Kemi Dole, physician, surgeon, researcher, coach, and career strategist for an always authentic, sometimes a little raw, but unapologetically empowering word. I keep it real for you because I want you to win. Hello, so I get so many questions along the lines of, ah, how can I work with you? You're changing my life and I want more of this. And if you fall into that category and you are a woman of color, faculty member in academic medicine, public health, or allied fields, then just keep listening. Listen, are you building the academic career you want or hard at work checking boxes on everyone else's to-do list? A successful career doing the work you love doesn't mean you have to sacrifice your values, your family, or your joy. Stop trying to be everything to everybody and get to learning the strategies, that will 3X your productivity, hone your passions into funded projects, and create the career you worked so hard to achieve. If you've been to every career development and professional development workshop that sounded great, but didn't actually deal with the kind of institutional pressures you face. If you're working hard, but somehow stuck in inefficiency, putting everyone else's priorities first. If you spent years training and sacrificing to become academic faculty, And here you are still working nights and weekends on the projects you care most about. I'm here to tell you that you can walk away from this institutional mindset forever and take control of your career with clarity and strategy. Every day, I help women of color faculty of all career levels in academic medicine, like you, reframe and recreate their academic life so that they can channel their ideas, passions, and skills into grant-funded work within institutional support, and sustainability. And that is why this episode is brought to you by Get That Grant, our six-month high-performance coaching program for high-achieving women of color faculty in academic medicine who are ready to reclaim career control and secure grant funding doing the work they love. In Get That Grant, we help you kick imposter syndrome to the curb for good, so you lead your career with clarity and confidence. You learn productivity and strategy skills for grants and papers to maximize your chances of success without wasting your time, abandoning your passion, or working yourself into the ground. We help you build the foundation for an amazing and fulfilling academic career, changing your life and the lives of everyone your work will touch. Yes, this future is possible for you, and it's waiting on you to make the first step. If you are ready for career success without sacrifice, I encourage you to join our waitlist at chemidol.com backslash grant. After you join the waitlist, you'll be notified when the next Get That Grant cohort will be enrolling. Your application process will include an in-depth career foundations assessment, helping you identify the gaps in your foundation that are holding you back from enjoying the career you worked so hard to achieve. No more secret worrying that the career you want isn't really possible. This career assessment will show you exactly where you need to focus to level up your experience and your impact. Join the waitlist today to get in line, visit chemidol.com backslash grant to sign up. Talk to you soon. Hello, Jen, and welcome. Thank you, Kemi. Thank you for having me. Oh, I am so excited to have you here on Your Unapologetic Career. These are my favorite episodes for obvious reasons, but I'm really glad that you agreed to chat with us. So I just want to start out with saying just between you and me and our listeners, why don't you tell us what your area of work is, where you work, and what is the good work that you're doing in the world with your career?

SPEAKER_02: 5:33

Sure. So I am a social and behavioral scientist. I have my PhD in social psychology. And right now, I'm an assistant professor at Case Western Reserve University in the School of Medicine in the Department of Population and Quantitative Health Sciences. And so my current area of work examines social determinants of health behaviors and health behavior change. And I apply that to the study of tobacco use and tobacco-related health disparities. I lead research to understand and really to try to address socioeconomic disparities in tobacco smoking. And so for many years now, I've been looking at very carefully the intersection of tobacco use and food insecurity as a specific unmet basic need and social determinant that increases the odds of smoking and is a barrier to smoking cessation. So I have both this national level focus to my research and the community level focus where I highlight this problem a broader level using various epidemiological data sets and methods. And then I try to bring that to the community-oriented space to partner with local food assistance organizations here where I'm based in Cleveland and our safety net hospital system for smoking cessation and health promotion research. So that's the nutshell of the research that I do. And I also teach in our MPH program here at CASE. Oh my

SPEAKER_00: 7:04

gosh. Okay. So Jen, one, you do all the things. Two, oh, that sounded so clear. I mean, and obvious in a good way. I mean, like, oh my gosh, of course. How are we not talking about food insecurity and smoking cessation? Those feel deeply related to me. Was that a new perspective

SPEAKER_02: 7:23

that you brought to the field? I want to say that it is. In the field, we've been talking a lot about financial stress and financial strain, but not quite necessarily something really specific. And for me, I latched onto food insecurity because, you know, has all this policy relevance as well. Like we shouldn't be dealing with food insecurity. I mean, no, don't get me started. Absolutely. So that's the lens that I brought. to this area?

SPEAKER_00: 7:52

Yeah. I mean, one, we're going to say, yes, please claim it, claim the unique lens. And I don't know, it just strikes me as so important when otherwise I think the only messaging that I ever hear is just like, don't smoke, which clearly is not quite going to get it when there are all these other things going on in people's lives. Anyway, thank you for sharing. And this is what I'm struck by right now in this moment. What you described was so clear, the connections that you've made and the choice that you've made to go from quantitative data sets and very policy-informed work back to working in the community that you're in and food services that are offered, that feels like a very deliberate choice to have that kind of scope with your work. And so when people hear that, when I hear that, I'm like, oh, she's got it together. To be able to get all of that organized and so clear. So I think it would be really helpful for you to share where were you in your career when you started to consider coaching and specifically what wasn't working for you? That's

SPEAKER_02: 8:56

a really good question. Just to kind of circle back on what you had said was that it sounds clear to you, but in the inside, I had so much anxiety. I had so much kind of like, where do I fit in the world? I'm a social psychologist or that's my training. And here I am in the school of medicine. Like there aren't really people with my background and training doing this stuff. And so there was a lot of anxiety around that, but to circle back to the actual question you asked, like where I was in my career and what wasn't working, you know, I was, I a little over a year into my current faculty position, which actually was my second faculty position or second tenure track faculty job. And I had the experience of moving tenure track jobs kind of really early on in my academic journey. And so the second job that I have now here at Case, I started that job in January 2020, and it was a completely different city, space, department, university, all of that. And when I started considering coaching, I was about a year into this job. And that felt like a really important turning point for me because I had already made this huge physical environmental change. I had a K award and I was in the middle of the K award. And I should say I have a K award and I moved that successfully. I transferred the research. I was getting the research going. I had new community partners. I was building my research team. But underneath all of that, like about a year into the job, when sort of things I adjusted to the pandemic, all the unknowns of the pandemic, and then the adapting to the new environment, all of that sort of died down. And yet the anxiety never died down because until then I sort of chalked it up to that, like, oh, I'm in a new space.

SPEAKER_01: 10:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 10:53

Oh, it's the pandemic. Like there are all these unknowns, but actually a year in, it's like the anxiety was amplified. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 11:02

It's like, no, going in the right direction.

SPEAKER_02: 11:03

Exactly. And I remember having this point, just this moment of, oh my gosh, I don't know if I am going to make it. I don't know if I know what I'm doing. And like, I was so indecisive about everything. Like on the outside, it all looked good. Oh, okay. She has this K award. She knows what she's doing. She moved it over. She has new partnerships, all of that. But actually in the inside, I was just so filled with anxiety that was making me procrastinate decisions and I just didn't feel good.

SPEAKER_00: 11:40

Yeah. Can you give us an example of like what that looked like in your day-to-day with the anxiety? Like you said procrastination, was it like not getting papers written? If somebody was really paying attention, what would they have noticed you doing because of this turmoil that you were feeling?

SPEAKER_02: 11:57

Yeah. In the day-to-day, I put off a lot of decisions, small decisions and big decisions Like everything felt really weighty for me. So then I would just have this huge backlog and I need to think about X to make a decision. And then I would not really come to that.

SPEAKER_01: 12:15

And

SPEAKER_02: 12:16

so then I would look at that list and just feel terrible about myself to be like, okay, why am I not doing the things that I know I need to be doing? And then like you mentioned, was it about papers? It was absolutely about papers too. One thing I realized was, you know, I have a lot of papers on my CV that wasn't the issue but I went out there and like collected a lot of primary data and yet I couldn't get those papers written every time it came time to work on those papers like I just felt so much like imposter syndrome or some kind of perfectionism all I could see were all the flaws of the data like oh why didn't I ask it this way oh that skip pattern didn't work so I'm not gonna like you know like I couldn't get over those factors so then that translated to my day-to-day of just not being very productive, even though I was like at it day in and day out and working really hard, I felt.

SPEAKER_00: 13:13

Yeah. Well, one, thank you for sharing because I think that I will identify this feeling as like anxiety. Like some people will just identify it as like, I'm a procrastinator or they'll identify it as, I just want it to be perfect. Like I just want it to be, I want it to look really good. Or they'll only identify just with the imposter syndrome part will just like, I just don't know what I'm doing and I don't really belong here. But I think it's so important to hear how these things actually manifest for people because when you are very busy, like right when you're working all the time and you're very busy and you're funded and on the outside, everybody is like, you're funded, you're very busy, your work is going well. And your experience of it is, I'm not getting anything done. I don't know how to make decisions. I have like this long list of things I still haven't decided. And all I can see are all the flaws. To me, it's that distance between what people are seeing and how you're feeling that creates that turmoil because it's like the monster. It's like the thing that feeds the imposter syndrome because you know, it's not your truth. So it's on the one hand, you have imposter syndrome being like, I don't know if you really deserve to be here. And we know that that's nonsense. And that's just created from our very racist, sexist, patriarchal culture. But so you have that, but then you have this other thing feeding it, which is that like, I don't feel the way that people see me. Like I literally don't. I'm I'm spending all this time working and I don't see what is coming out of it. So I just appreciate the share there because I think that a lot of people get stuck in that place and that just becomes the norm, which is that like, I just am never going to meet this standard that I believe I should be able to meet. And since I can't, I just like, I'm just going to live this way. I don't know. I'm kind of going off track, but does that resonate with you? Absolutely. One thing that you could

SPEAKER_02: 15:00

teach in your GTG Get Back grant was you give this example of when you feel this way. Sometimes you're looking for these small wins. Oh yeah. That are not about your purpose. Right. And so for me, I was doing things like that. Like, Oh yes, I'll attend that kind of meeting that has no real structure because I want to be like, I was there. I'll be like, I will go to the meeting to like show my face because I'm new and I want to be there, but it's like, I didn't quite have a role. And so then I would feel really even more awkward about that. And it was, Just a weird... thing that I was doing because of all the indecisiveness, the procrastination, and the underlying anxiety of trying to find those small wins and look for those. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 15:48

You will totally overload. You'll overload your calendar with things that allow you to check some box, some kind of small win box. Just overload it while simultaneously not working on the most important thing. And so it's this odd dichotomy because at the end of the day, you have all of these things checked off and yet none of them move you any closer to your main goal. And that it's a difficult place to build a career. It's very hard to build your career that way. It's very hard to feel a sense of momentum that way. Anyway, let's keep going. Okay. So can you remember a moment? You've mentioned one of the things that we talk about and get that grant, but a moment where something shifted for you in a big way. And would you share one of those times with us? Definitely. There were,

SPEAKER_02: 16:33

first of all, so many shifts that I went through, but one, if I can just take a was it was related to the productivity piece and the really big mindset shift that I made from what you teach was that the practicing the idea of getting something done in the time that you have set out for it and being really decisive around that. You know, I love that because that mindset shift and then practicing that in real life kind of unlocked a puzzle in some way. It wasn't just like, you need to set up your schedule this way to be kind of productive. You need to write during these times that you write, but it was Leading up to that, the curriculum, it was around managing your mind of how to work through whatever anxiety. For me, it was a lot of anxiety. So it was like, how do you work through that anxiety first? And then how do you make a decision to say, I'm going to put this much time to work on this specific thing and get it done within that time. And it's okay if it doesn't look perfect in that time, but then use your next set of tools to make it the better iteration. So it was like, Like the perfectionist in me was so scared of anything less than perfect that in the past I would like work on these papers for like countless hours because there was no kind of set structure of like, this is what I'm going to do in the time that I have. It was just kind of like, I'm going to work on this indefinitely. And it was like weeks, months, you know, like years. And so I was working and writing every day, but I wasn't seeing that on paper. And then I was kind of internalizing that to be what the heck's wrong with me here? Why am I writing every day and I'm not seeing this on paper? But that shift of you decide how long you're going to spend on something. You set the goal and then you do it. That really unlocks something because again, it was that decision. Like taking the time to make a decision just made so much sense the way that it was taught in the curriculum.

SPEAKER_00: 18:42

Yeah. You know, you're talking about productivity precision and it's really funny because a lot of people come in and that's like the first, they're like, I'm ready for my productivity work. Like I want the productivity bootcamp. I I'm ready. And I have to say like, not yet. Because the thing about those tools is that they don't work when you haven't addressed all the underlying stuff, some of which we've talked about. And there's so much of that. I mean, we talk about self-care at work. We talk about a lot of stuff, mindset, optimizing your micro environment, all of these things. But what is beautiful just specifically about the productivity precision is what... That's what I want to pull out what you said is that the power of making a decision. There's so many decisions we don't get to make. On the one hand, they're like, oh, they're these careers and that's in academics and you can just decide to study whatever you want and like have a good time and think for the rest of your life. And then the reality is like, there's 8 million rules. It's like, there's the only certain things people fund. This is the deadline, the grant deadline. Nobody cares about your life, et cetera, et cetera. We just get so used to not having any control. We get too used to actually like not making decisions because so many decisions are made and the default is that these decisions are made for you. So I kind of think like the secret sauce or productivity precision is like this way of almost this mental gym. of getting to exercise the new muscle of making decisions just for you. Literally, like not for anybody else, like just making decisions just for you and sticking with it and seeing it through. And then you're doing that. And so you like slowly, you're just getting used to that feeling of like, I can decide this for myself. I don't actually have to worry about what anybody else thinks, et cetera. And then like the bonus on top is a couple of weeks later, your paper's done. And you're like, oh my God.

SPEAKER_02: 20:19

And also now I have a paper. Exactly. that, I think one of the gems of get that grant is this really good balance of that inner work with the external factors and productivity precision is just one example. But like for me, I loved get that grant because it was both kind of, you do the inner work and then you actually have this like paper that's done, or you made a decision on something and then you just feel so much better because you did those things. You feel really effective.

SPEAKER_00: 20:51

Oh my God. And you get to enjoy the win more, right? Because you really can own it because you know what you did to get there. And I think the other thing that happens is that because you get to enjoy that on a different kind of level, it in this indirect way helps to lessen the importance we put on everybody else's judgment and everybody else's gaze, right? We're all constantly in the external gaze, obviously, right? We're all constantly looking for approval. But when you keep building up these experiences where your internal celebration is so big. You know what I mean? You can celebrate so much what you did that day and making decisions and sticking with it and learning a new skill set and celebrating that in a community. It is a very powerful, even if indirect way of breaking free of all of our addiction to, well, what does that person over there think? And does this person over there think it's amazing? And all of us really need a steady stream of that because we know the culture in academics is not changing anytime soon. So we do need a steady stream of that antidote so that when you go to make decisions, that what's driving your decision is you and that feeling and not whatever John over there thinks.

SPEAKER_02: 22:06

Right. It really is that paradigm shift that I didn't even know that this was part of the program. And then now that I'm kind of sitting here reflecting back on it, I'm like, wow, that was profound. Yes,

SPEAKER_00: 22:20

that is our goal. Our goal is transforming people's experiences, right? The paper alone, the grant alone, even the big grant alone is so empty. Kind of like where we started, Jen. If inside, you still feel like the person who can't get it together. Like, what are you really doing here? I want both. It's like, I don't know about you, but I want both. I want the papers. I want the grants and I want a positive experience. Like all of it. Exactly. Okay. So what do you have now that you didn't have before embarking on coaching gym? Like

SPEAKER_02: 22:56

so much, but on a concrete level, I have sort of I'm going to use this toolkit analogy. I have a toolkit that's really curated for me and customized to me and my needs and preferences and goals. So it's like, I don't know how you manage to do that in a group coaching program, but I look back on the curriculum and I'm like, wow, this is highly curated for me. And for me personally, I loved reading self-help books and I always fell into this trap of like, oh, if I only knew more or I need to know more before I can like make a decision or I need to take action. I just need more knowledge, right? Yeah. And that's what happens if you're a self-help kind of junkie, like I can be, but you're like really just collecting a bunch of these things, tools that like may not actually be all that helpful. And it's just really cluttered. But with this, you know, having gone through and get that brand, it's like I have exactly the tools that I need. And then I practice it every week so that I'm like, optimizing and sharpening those skills so that when I set up my week, I give myself the best times of the week to do the work that I need to do, whether it's writing a grant or whether it's like writing a section of a paper. And then again, I'm deciding and choosing what I'm prioritizing and how I give myself that time and give myself like the most focused times of the day. And also something that I do have now that I didn't have before starting coaching was mustering up the courage for the things that don't come naturally to me. There's a lot of things about being in academic medicine or being a faculty that just doesn't come naturally to me. And with coaching, I'm like, it's not that big of a deal to send that email to this person that you haven't met before to ask for X, Y, and Z. Those are things that I would procrastinate on just for weeks at a time because I have a lot of anxiety. But with coaching, I'm able to really just muster up that courage and just be like, okay, just get it done and get it done without really putting so much emphasis on it and making it mean something about me in a deficit way or whatever. What's wrong with you? I get rid of that.

SPEAKER_00: 25:23

Yeah. It's the judgment. Getting rid of that judgment and instead just leaning into, I'm a courageous person. Absolutely. Because this doesn't come naturally to me, but I'm willing to do it. This isn't easy for me, but I'm willing to do it. And I do think it goes back to even the decision-making we're talking about. That muscle of like, I'm going to do it because I decided to. And there's a freedom from unhooking, from the academic... medicine narrative, right? Of like, you can't control anything. Everything is terrible. And this isn't to minimize the major problems with academic medicine and public health. I would never do that. I'm like the biggest critic, honestly. And at the same time, if you're a person who's chosen to do your work through this field, right, to have this be the platform to do your work, because maybe there are all these other things that align, like your intellectual curiosity and the fact that you like to write down arguments and your interest in data, like all these other things things fit so nicely into the world of academics. There's nothing wrong with that. But if you know that and you know the system is designed really not to have you thrive, then it also does not serve us to be in the default conversation of academics, which is it's all terrible and you can't get anything done. It just doesn't. It's like if your goal is to get something done anyway, then there's a freedom on hooking from that. And I think some people, we can see that but not know what to hook into. I think that's what Get That Grant is about is like unhook from that, hook into this because this is actually something that's building you, you as the resource, right? Like not the institution, not the center, not this data set, you as the resource. And that is so exciting to me because that means you can go do whatever you want. That's the piece. If you learn how to step out in courage and send an email that feels really scary, then you'll email people about anything. And that's what I like to see. I like to just sit back and watch my clients like, whoa. You did what? That's the best feeling because that's actually more of what we need in our field, I think. And the more you

SPEAKER_02: 27:25

do it, the less anxious you become about it because you're like, that wasn't a big deal. Right. The world didn't end. Yeah, exactly. And I got what I needed and you become more confident. Like you say, you write a courage then leads to confidence, but courage comes first. And yeah, get that grant really gives you the tools to take courageous steps forward. in the way that you need. Yeah, exactly. That is personalized to you because you're working on that.

SPEAKER_00: 27:52

I love it. Okay. What advice would you give a woman of color faculty like you who just signed up for Get That Grant and wants to be sure they get the most out of it?

SPEAKER_02: 28:02

I think the biggest thing is to trust yourself to go through the process. And there's this external structure of the curriculum. And we have our group coaching calls, but it's really to trust yourself to go through that, experience that fully. Because there were times when I was going through the curriculum that I really didn't want to do some of the activities on there because it felt really tedious or it felt like it brought up kind of like, oh my God, I just want to do it in my head. I don't really want to like fill out the worksheets. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 28:34

Yeah. No, I'm just laughing. Cause like everybody is like this because I attract high achieving people who are like, I want to get it done. It's always funny to me that I just, you're not alone, but everybody's like, man, I pulled up this worksheet and I was like, I'm not doing this. Okay, fine. I'll do it. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02: 28:53

Exactly. But then to do it and do it at your best times and to actually put that effort into it, because the beautiful thing about get that grant is that it all connects. Like you think you're like, why did I do this thing? That's like so tedious and feel small. Somehow later down the line, you're like, well, remember when you did that? And you're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that it all just clicks. So that's, I would say to somebody who, yeah, signed up for get that grant, just really, really commit to it for yourself, find what your best time is to like engage with the work and just do it at your best times.

SPEAKER_00: 29:36

Yeah, I would agree with that. I would say just do it meaningfully. As you know, we have a multi-step application process. But I mean, a lot of that is about finding people who will answer questions meaningfully. Honestly, because it doesn't really work. If you're just coming in to check, check, check, and I just want to see how you arrange a calendar, then it's not going to mean anything because you're not actually getting to any of the root issues. And I'm so interested in the transformation part of it and that you leave and your career feels different. you're moved different. The way you dream about your career is different. What you think you're capable of is different. In addition to those papers are written in addition to your productivity is better. So like all of that stuff, I'm so interested in that. And I'm so committed to that. They're like, I'm not interested in somebody coming in who just wants to check boxes. Cause it's one, it's not going to work anyway. So you're not going to be very happy, but to the quality of the community. Part of that is everybody wanting to do the work meaningfully, even when you're like, I don't really want to do this, but today, but like, That intention of like, okay, I'm going in. It's six months and I'm going in. So I guess all that to say is that I'm deeply grateful to you. And I'm happy to see what you've experienced because it means a lot to me for faculty, for women to come in with that trust. That means a lot to me that people are like, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to give it my 100%. And it's beautiful to see the other side.

SPEAKER_02: 31:00

Absolutely. I mean, that community piece, you're so right that the women in the group are just you don't have that competitive spirit or that kind of comparison spirit. Rather, you just have that trust built in and you can be vulnerable with one another. I've actually never experienced that kind of community ever.

SPEAKER_00: 31:23

Oh, my gosh. I was just talking about this. With our new program coaches that I'm training, I was just explaining like, why is our community so valuable, right? I was like trying to explain like, why is it more than just like, oh, it's such a great group. We have to recognize that the default experience as women of color, especially black women, our default experience of being in like a group in a faculty setting, in a professional setting, including a professional development setting is one of being isolated, being the only one, a lot of frenemy energy, a lot of competition. I mean, like that's been the norm. That is the norm. So to be able to enter into a space where it's either that or you're the star. So you don't even feel in competition because you're the high achiever in the room. Let's be honest. So to be able to be in a space where you're among other high achievers. Everybody here is kicking butt. Everybody here is a high achiever and yet no competition, no comparison, no frenemy energy. People are authentic. I think that's the reason why our clients can experience so much growth and transformation in such a short time. Because they don't have to wade through all of the armor, right? And all of the BS, like everybody's really showing up authentically, meaningfully as themselves. So it's just funny you brought that up. We were just talking about that in training.

SPEAKER_02: 32:40

I've never experienced that. And it's so wonderful. Is there anything else you want to share? Last thing is just to really thank you for creating this and for making this part of your mission, because there's nothing like this out there. Like I said, the... inner work that you do with the balance of the external productivity that you see I don't know how you do it and how you did it but having gone through that I'm just very very grateful so thank you I don't even want to think about the circumstance of me not having gone through get that grant and where I would be now if I didn't go through this experience

SPEAKER_00: 33:21

oh I'm so glad to hear that and I'm breaking my rule because I feel like the one thing we didn't touch base on is the grant piece. And before you enrolled and get that grant, obviously you had your K and you're continuing to write grants. Could you maybe speak just briefly to what is the difference in that experience of the writing before get that grant and like the writing and getting grants now?

SPEAKER_02: 33:44

Oh, really good question. When going through the experience, your curriculum talks exactly about what not to do, like those low quality decisions. And so for me, I was like, Ooh, did that, did that. And now that I'm kind of working towards my next really big grant. Now I'm using all the strategies that are taught in that and applying it directly. And it just goes so much smoother of even getting feedback on aims, like starting with the aims page. And like, how do you do that in a very effective way? That's helpful for you. And so that also releases me of like some of the anxiety that I had about like, Oh, what if this person thinks my ideas are bad? Yes. Like that's gone now. And I'm like, nope, I'm following this really highly curated method that I'm also personalizing to myself and getting exactly what I need. That's been my experience so far. Oh,

SPEAKER_00: 34:45

love it. Okay. Thank you for sharing. Jen, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been great talking to you and I will see you soon. Thank you, Kemi. All right. Take care. Bye. Bye. Hello, I'm coming through to remind you that we are starting a listener letter segment on the Your Unapologetic Career podcast. Write in with questions that you have. You can ask me anything. I will decide what I want to answer. You can bring forth challenging situations or suggest topics you might want to hear more about. To do that, you can reach me at podcast at kdollcoach.com. That's podcast at K-D-O-L-L-C-O-N with your questions. Please note if you'd like to be anonymous and I will always do my best to keep you so excited to hear from y'all. Bye.