89 Coaching Client Spotlight: Michelle Ogunwole, MD, PhD

Dr.  Michelle Ogunwole is an Assistant Professor of Medicine at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. She is a health disparities researcher, social epidemiologist, and General Internal Medicine physician additionally boarded in obesity medicine and lifestyle medicine.  

Dr. Ogunwole’s research focuses on racial disparities in maternal health among African American women with a specific interest in African American women's experience within the healthcare system and barriers to follow-up  after pregnancy. Her clinical work focuses on managing chronic disease in the preconception and postpartum period, particularly for women with medically complicated pregnancies that confer elevated future cardiovascular risk. Her quality improvement efforts center around transitions of care from obstetrics to primary care for historically marginalized populations who experience medically complicated pregnancies. She is also an alumna of our Get That Grant coaching program! 

Listen in as we discuss her coaching journey and:  

• How coaching has given her clarity and motivation regarding the next best move in her career after checking “all the boxes” and feeling stuck 
• The tools that have empowered her to work through moments of overwhelm  
• The shifts that she has experienced in her thoughts around handling things outside of your control 
• The value of curating a space where you can openly celebrate your wins and work through challenges in community with like-minded people 
• How to slow down from chasing gold stars and dig deep to understand what you want and need so you can get back to a place where you feel peaceful and excited about your career again 

  If you loved this convo, please go find Dr. Ogunwole on Twitter and IG @drchellmd and show her some love! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04: 0:00

There's some tools that we learned in coaching about changing our thoughts. And I think more than anything, that has been the most powerful thing that I have. Like if you were in my home right now, there's just little sticky notes of me, like thinking about the situations I'm in and knowing that I can, in my own mind, walk my way out of whatever death spiral I was going into.

SPEAKER_01: 0:31

Hello. You are listening to your unapologetic career. Being a woman of color faculty in academic medicine who wants to make a real difference with your career can be tough. Listen, these systems are not built for us, but that doesn't mean we can't make them work for us. In each episode, I'll be taking a deep dive into one core growth strategy so you can gain confidence and effectiveness in pursuing the dream career you worked so hard to achieve. I keep it real for you because I want you to win. So I get so many questions along the lines of, How can I work with you? You're changing my life and I want more of this. And if you fall into that category and you are a woman of color, faculty member in academic medicine, public health, or allied fields, then just keep listening. Listen, are you building the academic career you want or hard at work checking boxes on everyone else's to-do lists? A successful career doing the work you love doesn't mean you have to sacrifice your values, your family, or your joy. Stop trying to be everything to everybody and get to learning the strategies that will 3x your productivity, hone your passions into funded projects, and create the career you worked so hard to achieve. If you've been to every career development and professional development workshop that sounded great but didn't actually deal with the kind of institutional pressures you face, if you're working hard but somehow stuck in inefficiency, putting everyone else's priorities first, if you spent years trying training, and sacrificing to become academic faculty, and here you are still working nights and weekends on the projects you care most about, I'm here to tell you that you can walk away from this institutional mindset forever and take control of your career with clarity and strategy. Every day, I help women of color faculty of all career levels in academic medicine, like you, reframe and recreate their academic life so that they can channel their ideas, passions, and skills into grant-funded work with institutional support and sustainability. And that is why this episode is brought to you by Get That Grant, our six-month high-performance coaching program for high-achieving women of color faculty in academic medicine who are ready to reclaim career control and secure grant funding doing the work they love. In Get That Grant, we help you kick imposter syndrome to the curb for good so you lead your career with clarity and confidence. You learn productivity and strategy skills for grants and papers to maximize your chances of success without wasting your time, abandoning your passion, or working yourself into the ground. We help you build the foundation for an amazing and fulfilling academic career, changing your life and the lives of everyone your work will touch. Yes, this future is possible for you, and it's waiting on you to make the first step. If you are ready for career success without sacrifice, I encourage you to join our waitlist at chemidol.com backslash grant. After you join the waitlist, you'll be notified when the next Get That Grant cohort will be enrolling. Your application process will include an in-depth career foundations assessment, helping you identify the gaps in your foundation that are holding you back from enjoying the career you worked so hard to achieve. No more secret worrying that the career you want isn't really possible. This career assessment will show you exactly where you need to focus to level up your your experience and your impact. Join the waitlist today to get in line. Visit chemidol.com backslash grant to sign up. Talk to you soon. Hello, Michelle, and welcome to the podcast. Hello, I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to have you here. This is very exciting for me too. So I know you, but why don't you let our listeners know your specialty, where you work, and what good work you're doing in the world?

SPEAKER_04: 5:05

Sure. So I'm an internal medicine physician and obesity medicine trained, and I'm an assistant professor of medicine at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. I'm out here in Baltimore, and my work is really about improving improving equity in maternal health outcomes, specifically among Black mothers and birthing people. And most recently, a lot of my work has focused on moving away towards describing the problem that so much of us are aware of and really thinking about finding solutions that actually address some of the structural inequities that a lot of the mothers that I work with face. And I also, you know, as an internist, have really thought about prevention and thinking about chronic disease and pregnancy from just a different lens addressing these structural inequities. So that's the work.

SPEAKER_01: 5:58

That is, I feel like it's like, that's the work, T-H-E-E. That is, yeah, that is the work. That is the work. And we're appreciative that you do it. And it's unusual to have that interest and focus from internal medicine. And I think all perspectives are required in this work. So it's really amazing for you to be in it, in this space. So Michelle, can you tell us a little bit about where you were in your career slash life when you started to consider coaching and specifically what were your pain points? Like what wasn't working for you that made you consider going down this route?

SPEAKER_04: 6:32

Yes. Well, I mean, as you know, Kemi, I had reached out to you trying to get some coaching when I was a fellow. I was not even a faculty member. And I was really reflecting on the root of some of that I was thinking about actually before I started fellowship, the year before I started fellowship, I participated in this wonderful program that the AAMC puts on. It's like an early career faculty minority

SPEAKER_01: 6:59

development program. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. It's like a weekend. Yeah, it's a weekend.

SPEAKER_04: 7:03

It was an amazing experience for me. It was the first time that I started to pull the blinders back on what a career in academia is like. But it was also a little bit, I think, terrifying because I was hearing some stories of, you know, faculty who had been in positions where they were, you know, they were making less than the people they trained, people who had been assistant professors for 13 years, stalled out after their case. And I was just like, my God, how do you avoid all of these things? And I actually went into my fellowship thinking, okay, I gotta find some solutions to some of these issues. I'm thinking maybe there's a way I can avoid this. And I think part of that was I said, okay, well, I can learn from some of the mistakes that people have made before me. I think that part is true. But I also went into this kind of mind frame and I was like, I just need to work harder. I just need to do more. So I go into fellowship and I'm like, whatever they're expecting of me, I just need to do 10 times more. Girl,

SPEAKER_01: 8:02

you are people. I know the feeling, continue.

SPEAKER_04: 8:06

Yes, this is it. This is it. So I was like, they want three papers, I need 10. Yes. So that was really the mindset that I went into fellowship with. And the thing is, I think around that time, I don't know, that you started like publishing some newsletters, right? And so the newsletters started speaking to me like, there was like this idea that like, you can actually be great and be productive and you might not have to not sleep because that's what was actually happening. I wasn't sleeping. I wasn't really taking care of myself. And so that idea piqued my interest. I said, wait a minute, there might be a way to do that. I need to know this now. And so even before I was faculty, I was like, I can already tell that I need something else. But I think as a fellow, I didn't truly understand what it meant to be faculty, you know, and all the things that come with that. And I think you'd even told me like, you probably want to make sure that you understand what you're getting yourself into before the coaching.

SPEAKER_02: 8:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 9:00

And so I finished fellowship and I started my faculty position. And the thing is, Kemi, I actually did all the things. I published the 15 papers. I was the first person to get a PhD in my fellowship. All these things had happened. And I'm sitting here in my career now and I'm like, now what? And I remember at that time starting to listen to the podcast. And I think there's like the first podcast I listened to about the 10 lies of academic medicine. And one of them was just about now that you don't have all of these little boxes to check and the next step in front of you isn't perfectly laid out. What are you going to do and how are you going to be fulfilled? Yes. And I was also pregnant at the time. And I was really starting to feel like an internal shift and actually wrote a listener letter because I was like, this is the first time in my life that I feel so unmotivated to do my work. And I don't really feel like I have direction. And I don't really see a way forward, especially as I'm going to be transitioning to a new chapter in my life. And I honestly, like I think about now as a metaphor, I felt like I had built this grand house. It was so beautiful. Everybody from the outside, they were looking at, look at that beautiful house. And on the inside, I felt like it was like hoarders or something. Like I felt like it was like chaos like complete chaos and nobody really knew that but me but the facade was alive and well but at the end of the day I had this like moment where I said I'm the one who has to live in the house and I need to I I'm the one who has to live in it and I need some peace in this house and I think that that was like my first thought that I I really know that I needed something different because I was thinking about the career ahead and it was feeling long because it was already feeling long. And I was like, this is my first year on faculty. This is the beginning. Feeling long, you know? And so I think it was a combination of me feeling like there has to be a way for the road ahead, not to just be like, I'm dreading it, but that I can find that there's things to look forward to as well as like trying to find some internal peace. I think that's where I was. And also just really needing tools, you know, really needing tools and strategies. That's where I was when I started coaching and honestly still feeling like if I could get these tools early that I thought that I would have a different career. You know, I thought that I would have a different career and that I could be happier and more fulfilled in it.

SPEAKER_01: 11:32

Yes. Michelle, you have said you've written a whole novel with our first question. There's just a few things I want to pull out. One is I think there's so much silent suffering among high achievers. And I think if you're a Black woman in academic medicine, it's very likely you're a a super extreme high achiever. And I know, like I had a visceral resonance when you were like, oh, well, if they said I need three papers, I'm doing 10. When I tell you, I know that life, it was unquestioned. It's not even something I would think that consciously about. It was like, oh, okay, what is the criteria? I will double it or more next moving on. And so I think what can be so hard about that now that I've noticed is that that kind of success, you get so much positive reinforcement around this beautiful house that you built around how hard you're working around how you are producing and you're doing this thing it makes it so much harder to imagine that something else could work that it could be different because you're like but you don't understand this has worked for me this long look what i've gotten to i got a phd did y'all hear that by the way yes mb phd i got a phd in my fellowship i did all these things i am set up i'm the standard people are looking at me now like i'm the standard but like you said but i'm actually in this house. It's actually my career. I'm the one living this career and I don't sleep and I'm exhausted. And I can't even imagine once you say there's no more checkbox, I can't even imagine what infinity looks like. Well, what, I mean, that feels, so I think you've just articulated it so beautifully. Why it actually, like, I sometimes think that folks doing the best needs the most help. I'm like, are you okay? Because I know what the default looks like to maintain that. And I think one of the things I I've been speaking to this more is what people like you or who hear this, who hear what you just said to know, it actually can be different. It doesn't have to look like that. And yet still have wildly outsized success that you're super happy about in your career. So thank you for that. Okay. So why don't you share with us a moment or more moments and get that grant where something did shift inside you, where you were like, okay, the house is clearing. It's not hoarders anymore in here.

SPEAKER_04: 13:48

Yeah, I mean, I think that there's so many like small moments that happen along the way that you start to realize that you've changed. And I think for me, I'll share just one experience. There was a time during coaching that my household finally, you know, COVID caught up with us. And I remember being really obviously I was upset about it. I had to quarantine from my baby, my family. I just there was just a lot going on. And, you know, there's some tools that we learned in coaching about changing our thoughts. And I think more than anything, that has been the most powerful thing that I have. And I even like, I could show you, like, if you were in my home right now, there's just little sticky notes of me, like thinking about the situations I'm in and, and knowing how to, that I can in my own mind, walk my way out of whatever death spiral I was going into. And instead of, you know, instead of saying like, look, I do have COVID, I have to be away from everyone. And I am very sad right now. You know, that's what it was. I was just, I wasn't, you know, I was feeling okay, but I was very sad and I didn't know how to change that feeling. But then I realized that I had tools to do that. And I'm not saying that you should be working when you're sick, but I started feeling physically better, but I still had to be away from everyone. And I realized that I could use this as an opportunity to get some work done. And I ended up, you know, actually writing a grant during that time that I had to write in a really short time period. And I think, I don't know that you can explain how profound of a shift it is to be sitting in a place where you almost feel just desperate and saying that nobody else pulled me out of that, but I pulled myself out with my mind. Yes. That's why it was powerful. So maybe to the outside looking at people don't realize, but for me, it was really monumental that said like, and I looked back at my, you know, at that time period and said, if I can think my way through and out of this, what else can I do when I'm well, when I'm full, when I, you know, like when I have everything that it takes. So I think that's why that was a moment that really shifted You

SPEAKER_01: 16:10

picked the moment. Yes. Oh my goodness. Pass the collection plate. Yes. Because you know what else is resonating with me is that it doesn't work to change who you are. It doesn't work to be like, well, Michelle, you just need to stop having such big goals and stop being somebody who can write 10 papers. You should just stop being somebody who can get the PhD. That does not work. I don't think that that works. The question is, how do you get tools so that you can pick up and put down your considerable abilities when it works for you? And what I heard you say is I was isolated in a deep and dark place. One, I had a tool so that I could get myself out of the worst of that mentally, just so I didn't have to sit there and physically suffer and mentally be so in suffering. But in doing that and starting to physically feel better, I realized, well, I'm sitting here by myself. I feel physically better. I have an opportunity to work on something that I care about. And this is the part I feel very passionate about this conversation because sometimes I think it's important to rest. I think it's important to have balance. But sometimes the fact that people get enjoyment out of work that is meaningful to them is lost in that. And what I heard you say is I was able to access what I could in that space. Like I can't be with my baby. I can't be with whatever. But I actually like this work. I like thinking about this work. I like proposing this work. And once I felt better I could access that place again not from a place of I have to do this even though I'm sick and I just have to suffer through it but from a place of I feel better and this work feels good so I'm going to use this time for that right and that is wildly different

SPEAKER_04: 17:55

it is and I think that that actually is what coaching is because the thing is nothing about our environments actually change

SPEAKER_01: 18:03

nope

SPEAKER_04: 18:04

nothing about my situation actually change but my experience of it was so It was so different. It was so different. And I was able to tap into, like you said, the, you know, the work that fulfills me. And even like when I had written that, that listener letter about motherhood and trying to go for a career that I could be proud of, that was worth spending my time away from my child. So that when he asked me about the work that I was doing, I can say, this was the work that I was doing that was meaningful to you. All of that actually came into clear focus during that time. Like I could actually see that in you. that moment. And so, you know, it's, it's really life changing. What can I say? It's really life changing.

SPEAKER_01: 18:45

It is. It's profound. The experience is the truth for you. It's like you said, it's like, well, even circumstances don't change, but if your experience changes, your truth has changed. And when you look out over like a long career, now that looks different. Cause you're like, well, if it experienced like this, now I'm sitting here going, what else can, like you said, well, what else can I do? Like right now it's all of a sudden it's totally different energy than gosh, I hear people now starting faculty. Like, okay, so like, this is my 15 year plan to get out of here. And I'm like, I think we've gone wrong. Like I think we've done something deeply wrong. So I don't know, we've touched on this. I guess I'll ask the question anyway, in case there's any other layers you want to share. What would you say you have now that you didn't have before embarking on coaching?

SPEAKER_04: 19:25

You know, I think one of the things that people want to know is if they're going to have tools. And I did touch on that. I do feel like I have tools. I feel like the problems that arise, I have the tools to manage them. And I think that that is one of the most empowering things. But I also feel like what happened with coaching is that I gained a community. And, you know, there's this community aspect of the coaching that as an introvert, I just really didn't think I needed. I think most of us are aware of like the gaslighting that kind of happens in these careers. And we all can name that as it's happening and the toll that it takes on you. But I think like I was thinking about how for so long I had to be my own hype man and the toll that that also has takes, you know, and I think to be able to be in community with other women of color who are just doing extraordinary things, it's really, really inspiring. I mean, there's like a pragmatic sense of it. Like you can really see people working through problems that you have also had. And you get this sense of validation, like really, like these things happen all over the place, not just you. And so that part of the gaslight, you know, like that experience of gaslighting, it's very affirming to say that this is happening to people who are, that you, you know, that you can objectively say are extraordinary

SPEAKER_01: 20:53

people. Yes, exactly. Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 20:55

If it's happening to them and then it happening to you doesn't make you feel so alone, but also that you've curated this space where people can really, I don't know, I think it's like to cheer on another person with a deep sense of pride. That's what I feel when I look at people and I see them in this group achieving things. I feel a deep sense of pride. And I think to cultivate a community where there's not jealousy, but that we can actually just hype each other up and give each other energy and give each other kudos. And it doesn't have to be like you're trying to downplay what you did. No.

SPEAKER_01: 21:32

No, I know. We don't do that. There's no humble brag. There's just a brag. Y'all, I did it. Y'all have to do all that. We're going to actually just celebrate fully. I

SPEAKER_04: 21:46

don't think I realized that that was missing from my career. You know, from my career, from my life, to be able to see that there's just something really really special about that. So I think along with the tools, I think it really is that community and that, you know, I don't know, that feeling like there really is nothing new under the sun. Like

SPEAKER_00: 22:09

everybody,

SPEAKER_04: 22:10

you know, there really is nothing new under the sun. But that's Octavia Butler. There's nothing new under the sun, but there are new suns, right? And I think that that's the feeling that you get when you're in community and you're in that group. So even if you're a person who feels like, I don't know, I think it's almost a lie that you think that you can do this stuff on your own and that we have been conditioned to be so protective of ourselves that we feel that we don't have space to, you know, we don't have that kind of space, but it exists. So I think that's, that's the other piece for me, for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 22:43

Yeah. I think once again, you've preached the sermon and it is true. There's it's the lie. I think the lie is an adaptation too, because when you, when you start to realize I have to do more to get ahead, I have to do more to feel secure in the place here because of who I am entering this space. You do, you are alone. Like you're out there ahead of everybody working harder. You're like, so you can feel that I isolation piece too. So it just makes sense that you settle into that place of like, I'm doing this alone. I'm hyping myself up. I have what I need. And again, all the positive reinforcement telling you the case. And I think you just touched on something really deep. And I hope that y'all heard her, which is the other thing that happens is that you actually are not free to fully celebrate yourself because it's just you. It's just you hyping you. And you're in these environments that tell us, you know, you can't brag too much. You can't get too, you know, you can't get that excited. You can't be too big. All those reasons You layer on the gender stuff, you layer on the race stuff. And all of a sudden it's like, you can barely celebrate a success for fear of being misinterpreted or misjudged. And there's something very healing about being in a place where people fully see you for the challenges that you have and your wins. It's like, you can be celebrating one week and everybody's excited. The next week and be like, y'all, I am up against a beast. Like, I don't know how to deal with this. And the freedom to be both of those things, is something that I think we are missing deeply in the default culture. We can't express both of those things at the same time. So I think that's part of what the community is doing is like, allowing space for both of those. And I think then for ourselves, we start to realize that they both have space then. So I can be amazing and be deeply challenged and it's fine. And one doesn't mean something about the other. And that opens up possibility. Absolutely. So what advice would you give a Black faculty member like you who just signed up for Get That Grant and she wants to make sure she gets the most out of it? She's already like, I don't know, I'm an introvert too. This don't make sense to me.

SPEAKER_04: 24:44

I think I would say that, You let this take up real space in your life.

SPEAKER_05: 24:51

I think

SPEAKER_04: 24:51

that that's time and energy. And I think that we all know what that looks like for each of us. I mean, for me, it was actually scheduling time on my calendar that I was actually going to commit to doing the work of, you know, getting through the actual curriculum. And I think, you know, scheduling the time on the appointment, making sure I have childcare and asking for help from people so that I could be, you know, that I could be present. I think that's one part of it. And then just being honest with yourself about what you need to do to really dig deep to get there. Because I think all of us, especially as people who like to check boxes, it's really easy to try to fly through curriculum. I got to get through the content. Yeah, let me just

SPEAKER_05: 25:36

get

SPEAKER_04: 25:37

through the content. And then you're even looking for, I need to get to the thing that I need. But if you're honest with yourself, you can say, I kind of rushed through that and I don't really think that I got everything out of it. And sometimes you have to go back and get more of what you need.

SPEAKER_00: 25:51

So

SPEAKER_04: 25:51

I think that's one of the things I'll say. And I think that expectation studying is really, really important. I think I had an idea about what coaching was. And I think my reality of what it is is actually better than I thought, but it's just different. And so if I was going to extend my, you know, my house metaphor, it's like my house is in chaos. And I thought if I got a coach, it's like people are going to come in and clean up the house. Oh, but that's not what it is. No, no. you're like okay uh you know i've invested in this yes process so somehow you know somehow people are going to come in and help you know they're just going to do the work but it's like but that's not actually what happens i think that nobody can actually come in and tell you where to put your stuff

SPEAKER_01: 26:39

that's exactly it michelle that's exactly it is the thing is nobody actually knows better than you and that that's that's the beautiful news and the bad news so

SPEAKER_04: 26:50

it's the beautiful the bad

SPEAKER_01: 26:52

news.

SPEAKER_04: 26:54

I mean, there's no quick, quick fix in that sense. Right. But at the same time, knowing that you have tools, because I think sometimes when you walk into chaos, it can feel overwhelming. Anybody knows like they unpack a house, everything's everywhere. You just don't even know where to start. I think what's encouraging is that you can enter this, this beautiful community and no longer feel overwhelmed by all of the things that you have to get to and say, well, I have a tool for this and I can start here. And then when you, when you layer the community onto that, you would say, you can ask somebody like, I can't get this stain out. Like, how did you do it? And you're like, no, it's not just you, girl. You gotta, you gotta really, you know, it takes time to get that one out. Or, you know, like this is how I organize this to make things fit into my life. And you know, you can, and you can do it too. And so I think that that's what it ended up being for me. And like I said, at the end of the day, I'm the one who has to live in the house. And then, and my experience of it is so different. And not only that, but I think the key that the first thing that you learn is to the house is beautiful. That's great from the outside, but it is beautiful from the inside. And maybe that we've lost some of that, you know, we've lost some of that. And so part of that, that deep work of starting to remember like who you are and the value that you bring in that nobody has a house like you. Like there's no house like this. It's just yours. And so, you know, I think all of those things are true. And then when you start to realize how valuable you are, I think that there's a pride in a sense that you want to get your stuff together. Like this is my one and only house. This is my home. This is my career. But I also, the other thing I will say is that just because you do coaching doesn't mean that things don't get cluttered. Like that things don't come up. It's

SPEAKER_01: 28:49

a process. I

SPEAKER_04: 28:51

think I had the sense that I'm going to do the coaching, right? My life's going to change.

SPEAKER_01: 28:55

And then you're going to

SPEAKER_04: 28:56

check that box and keep moving. And it's just, it's just kind of like, it's just a completely different way that I look at things now. And I think, like I said, the experience is so different to be able to say that I'm going to be honest and say that things are definitely going to come up. There's going to be challenges. There's even going to be moments where I backslide into some of the, some of the things that I used to do before that weren't necessarily healthy behavior. for me in my career, the lack of boundary setting, things like that. But I always do feel this sense that I have the tools and I know that I can think my way out of this situation and I can get back to a place where I can feel peaceful and excited about my career again. And I think that's what's been the most beautiful thing. And if I ever feel like I'm not able to do that again, I think that's where the community comes in because you're, you can go back there and it's like a brain trust. It's like a place that you can tap in for some power when you're tired, you know, all of those things I think end up being really, really important and they inspire you to keep going for the career that you actually want. And, and like I said, now the road is long, but it's not going to be weary. I mean, that's it for

SPEAKER_01: 30:12

my career. Okay. We're going to end up, that's it. Y'all heard it here. The road is going to be long, but it will not be weary. That is beautiful. I'm not saying anything else. You said it all, Michelle. Thank you so much for sharing with us. Was there anything else that you wanted to share or you feel complete?

SPEAKER_04: 30:29

I feel complete. Thank you for my extended metaphor. Oh my. I'm an internist. You know, I love a

SPEAKER_01: 30:35

good metaphor. I mean, I can't record a podcast episode without a metaphor. So you just gave me the metaphor for this. You know, I love a good metaphor. I'm definitely using that one again. There are multiple layers about how that, how it works. I really, really love it. And I think that, I think, I know that it's how people think about this concept differently in terms of your own house and like, you're the one living in it. So like, what are we going to do with that? And I, I guess I want to say that we spent a lot of time talking about this internal experience and this, like how profound it is to change your internal experience and the way that you pulled on that in times of challenge and the way that you, how that looks when you're in community, like when you're not the only hype person And now all of a sudden there's like 12 other hype people. You're like, okay, okay. Like I don't have to always be the one hyping myself up. Somebody else can hype me up. All of that. And also I would be remiss to also not mention, there's also the external things. Like there's the grant that you got. Like there's also the fact that like the things that we want, the same things that you are chasing after are gotten, but not in the same way. Right. And so they file into the house where they supposed to be, but they are no longer the whole goal of the house is to store these gold stars. No, not at all. Like you live there and the gold stars can be little decoration and it's just completely different. So thank you, Michelle.

SPEAKER_02: 32:03

Completely different. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 32:04

All right. Have a wonderful rest of your day. Take care.

SPEAKER_02: 32:07

You too.

SPEAKER_01: 32:08

Bye. Hello, I'm coming through to remind you that we are starting a listener letter segment on the Your Unapologetic Career podcast. Write in with questions that you have. You can ask me anything. I will decide what I want to answer. You can bring forth challenging situations or suggest topics you might want to hear more about. To do that, you can reach me at podcast at kdollcoach.com. That's podcast at K-D-O-L-L-C-O-N with your questions. Please note if you'd like to be anonymous and I will always do my best to keep you so excited to hear from y'all. Bye.