124 Coaching Client Spotlight: Sheila Rajagopal M.D., M.P.H., M.Sc.

Dr. Sheila Rajagopal received her M.D. at Columbia University’s College of Physicians and Surgeons, during which she also received an M.P.H. in quantitative methods with a focus on genetic epidemiology at the Harvard School of Public Health. She completed her internal medicine residency training at the University of Pittsburgh, a fellowship in hematology/oncology, and an additional fellowship year focused on cancer genetics at the University of Chicago, where she received an M.Sc. in biomedical informatics. She is currently a physician-scientist early investigator at the National Cancer Institute, where her lab studies how genetic data collected in routine oncology (including inherited and tumor sequencing) can be better used to refine predicting response to cancer treatment and patient outcomes.

She is also an alumnus of our Get That Grant® coaching program!

Listen in as we delve into Sheila's journey, her unique areas of expertise, and the valuable insights she gained from coaching: 

• Navigating major challenges in the job search
• A significant breakthrough in the coaching program that involved identifying her “resistance mechanisms”
• How she adopted an iterative approach to personal development and detaching from the notion of personal failure as a high achiever
• How setting aside Get That Grant® time on her schedule even post-program allows her to continue implementing the coaching tools and practices in her daily life

Loved this convo? Please go find Dr. Rajagopal on Twitter @tardistraveller and show her some love!

If you'd like to learn more foundational career navigation concepts for women of color in academic medicine and public health, sign up for our KD Coaching Foundations Series: www.kemidoll.com/foundations.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I remember there was one discussion in the group coaching calls where someone was talking about challenges of managing both up and down, like in the context, for example, managing a boss while like being in attending on rounds or like that type of context. And I remember kind of bringing to the call this realization that when you're fully aware and acknowledge your own power, it means that you start to be cognizant of how you are affecting managing down as well as managing up.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

And it helps you empower your trainees. It helps you empower the people you work with. So that's how the culture changes. Like, yes, that is the goal. That's the goal.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Hello, you are listening to your unapologetic career. Being a woman of color faculty in academic medicine who wants to make a real difference with your career can be tough. Listen, these systems are not built for us, but that doesn't mean we can't make them work for us. In each episode, I'll be taking a deep dive into one core growth strategy so you can gain confidence and effectiveness in pursuing the dream career you worked so hard to achieve. I keep it real for you because I want you to win. Okay, I don't know about you, But for me, whenever I'm trying to learn something new or integrate something new in my life, I really need to see it written down. I need a framework to understand how to make it come alive for me and also so I can adapt it to make it work for me. And that's what I was thinking about when I started writing the KD Coach Foundation newsletters way back in 2019. I spent about 18 months writing these twice a month, thinking about all the ways in which I could communicate really clearly and honestly, briefly about some career shifting tactics, strategies, and perspectives that can truly change people's experience of their career. Now, let's be honest. Some of these were great. Some of them were good. And some of them were just a really good try. But what I've done is compiled them into a digestible format of all of the great ones. I want to be able to keep this knowledge going. I got so many messages over and over again about how much the news letters, we're changing people's approach to their productivity, the approach to managing their sanity and their energy during the week, and their approach to thinking about how to translate the goals and the desires of their career into functional, actual actions in their day in and day out experience. If you're interested in any of that, I really encourage you to sign up for our newsletter, the Katie Coaching Foundations. It's free 99 and you can sign up at www Once you sign up, you will get one of these top tier, best performing, most cited newsletters from that period of time in your inbox every two weeks. I share these because I know, honestly, a lot of people are never going to sign up for Get That Grant. A lot of people are not going to be able to access the coaching we do because we're unapologetically focused on women of color faculty in academic medicine. But hey, I still want to help our entire field. I want to start a revolution. So if you haven't checked it out yet, definitely sign up at www.kemidol.com slash foundations to check out our career foundations series. Hello, hello, and welcome back to the show. I am just so pleased this week to have the guests that we have on. We have another client spotlight this week, and I think this one is going to be very special. Lots of unique aspects to this particular faculty's journey. So without further ado, Sheila, can you tell us about your specialty, where you work in the world? What good work are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Sure. No, I am thrilled to be here. So I'm Sheila Roger-Paul. I am a medical oncologist, clinical cancer geneticist, and a bioinformatician trained in statistical genetics. So it sounds very fancy, but I work as a early investigator at the National Cancer Institute. So I am building a lab that focuses on using computational tools to figure out how to link the data that we're getting in the clinic from patients, all that sequencing data, how to better optimize it for figuring out better treatments for patients, to figure out their outcomes, and in a way that is considerably more equitable than we've been doing so

SPEAKER_01 5:10

far. Yes. Working on it. And I feel like when you listed like, oh, these are my areas, they feel incredibly big and complicated areas to have competence in. Can you share a little bit like how you got the training slash interest in those distinct areas?

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Sure. It always sounds like a little overwhelming, I think, when people hear

SPEAKER_01 5:37

that. But in a It sounds overwhelming in a great way. You're like,

SPEAKER_02 5:45

oh, so you're a genius. Like, I love it. It gets to be kind of hard to do that without some understanding of where that data is coming from, which means you have to learn how to analyze it, which is where the stuff about stats and bioinformatics comes from.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Yes. And I think you're demonstrating something that is, excuse me, that is like common among our community, which is like the thing that I'm super interested in that I care about a lot is like has enough of a hold on me that I will like follow the path I must in ordering you know what I mean? In order to get it done. So if that means that your girl is going to become a bioinformatician, I don't know what it's called. It's like, well then I guess so. Like, I just feel like we all like, that is like a common trait, you know, where it's like, I mean, I guess it's like wherever you find me, I guess that's where I'm going because I care about this problem. And so whatever is required, that's what I'll do. Do you know what I mean? Do you identify that way? A hundred million

SPEAKER_02 7:03

percent.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Oh my gosh. Yes. Okay. So tell us a little bit about where you were when you're in your career, when you started to consider coaching. Cause I know we had like more than one conversation and, and what wasn't working for you. And I'm just going to give this a little bit more context because sometimes we have, you know, sometimes people are like, well, I don't really know what I want to do, but like, I just don't know enough. I'm just not, I'm not enough of an expert. I don't know everything. And like, I just don't see you that way. Like you really know stuff, like, you know what, you know? So from that standpoint, it didn't feel like that was a deficit. So can you tell us a little bit about what was a deficit? What wasn't working given that you had so much background and training and what you wanted to do?

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Sure. It's an interesting story. And I'm sure there are a lot of people who listen to you who, in fact, I know that there are a lot of people who listen to you who are familiar with what was happening, where I was looking for a faculty position in 2020 and going into 2021. And I had two trainee level grants that I was awarded as well as one co-author first paper, a couple additional papers. I had tons of faculty who at the time were willing to help me. So I had every possible advantage. And I interviewed at over 20 programs. And because there were no jobs or whatever, like the system stopped working for me, like all the stuff I think is going to work out fine, absolutely didn't. So between May 2020 and June 2021, or January 2021, it was very unclear what my next job would be and if I would have a next job, like actively so. But what I wasn't, what I kind of experienced was not COVID specific, where each institution was kind of giving me a very real glimpse into kind of who they were, where some places were absolutely lovely and I collaborate with those programs and those people now. And some places were, would completely ghost me, which I understand. One place had me interview with over 20 faculty and also submit a K-level application before rejecting me.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

So there was a lot going on. And it also gave me a very rapid understanding of a system I didn't know much about and learned about very quickly. But all that meant was that if you're going through this type of very unexpected job search, I had to go through a version of GTG that was very much by instance. Why did this process matter? Why am I doing this? Like, what is the alternative? And was also a bit trial by fire at the time. Like, what is the value that I'm bringing if I'm like making this pitch over and over and over and over again? And to all kinds of like, I wasn't just interviewing in academic centers, but in hybrid jobs, like nonprofits, anything, because I couldn't find a job. So if you think that the gold stars are going to help you, they weren't.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

This is before you enrolled, just to clarify. But you were kind of going through this process of like, all these things that are supposed to be guaranteed seem to be no longer part of the equation. You're interviewing everywhere. And so I think what I hear you saying is like, you're having this thought like, okay, what am I actually bringing to these places? Because they're not like, it's not like walking into like the land of milk and honey, which is like the expectation. It's like, feels very different. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Very desert, very opposite of milk. Very much so.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

So, okay. So when was it that you were like well maybe coaching will help and why why did you think that

SPEAKER_02 10:37

so in this whole period right like obviously didn't sound like fabulous and what i remember telling you is that i was trying really hard to keep my spirits up i was trying really hard to like maintain something like get an infrastructure to build the types of things you'd describe in gtg but was doing it like off the cuff without really a good idea of like how to build these things and was like listening to pop psychology podcasts like listening to stuff where i could try to like get something and Spotify recommended your podcast.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Shout out to Spotify. Can we take a moment? Spotify does not sponsor this podcast, but you should. Thank you very much, Spotify. Continue.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

But also I revamped my Twitter account during March, 2020. And like Dr. Yushi Blockstocks had also described like something that you were talking about. So like Med Twitter was also talking about, you know, I was like, oh, like Dr. Kemi Dole understands what, like exactly what I'm thinking about, but her thoughts are formed. I follow what she's talking about.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

I got it.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

And then to talk about what you were talking about, like, why was I talking about multiple times? So I signed up for, basically, I signed up for GTD as soon as I got a faculty job. I was like, I made it in the door. Like, I need coaching. I need to know what's going on and how to navigate this. But then once we actually talked and I did the exam and intersession, I realized that I had no idea what system I'd walked into. I had just gotten a glimpse of all these different systems, which meant that to best utilize the coaching program at this level for me, I had to have some idea of what my challenges were going to be in the new system I was walking.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Yeah. And I thought that made a lot of sense. I remember us talking and I was like, yeah, I think that does make sense. I mean, you were like, yeah, I think some of it is, I know there probably will be challenges coming. I just, I don't even know what they are yet. And your transition was enough that it's not like you could just copy paste where you were coming from, right? That you're like, no, this is going to be very different. And I love that because I think the clearer you are kind of coming in to get that grant, the more you're going to get out of it. But everybody, like where that point is, is different for each person. So sometimes, especially our faculty that are like just got a new job, but they're like staying. So they like, they kind of know, they're like, no, I need help now because everything's about to change for me right now. But it does vary. So yeah, that was kind of fun because I remember we talked and You were like, let me see how things go for like a year or something. And then a year passed. And then Sheila came back. I'm

SPEAKER_02 13:10

ready. I knew what system problems I had to deal with.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Yeah, I love it. So can you remember a moment or more than one and get that grant where something shifted for you in a big way? And we just love to hear about one of those times. Oh,

SPEAKER_02 13:25

I

SPEAKER_01 13:26

have a couple. Yes, go for it.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Definitely. One was upfront. And I came into GTG with like really wild experience, but also not necessarily abnormal experience where I'm like literally begging for scraps at the table and like trying to sit at any, any table. And it's all scarcity. It's all driven by scarcity. And you mentioned in multiple places when you start off and like consistently through the process that this group is curated to let go of that scarcity mindset. And I think that's extremely true, but not only is this sort of everyone in the group genuinely cheering for everyone else in the group and their wins. But it teaches you to take that behavior outside the group and actually really let that mentality go, which was really important, especially starting off.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Yeah. I mean, if you have had a year or more, depending on the training program experience, of literally feeling like your job is to beg, you know, basically like in order to survive, I must be constantly Right? Because you're like, well, I barely made it. I made it in by my fingernails. With you, you're like, listen, I got a job during COVID. This is not a guaranteed thing. And so it makes sense that you would bring that feeling of precariousness in. And then the way I think about it is that it's such a cloud on judgment. It's like you have your mind and what you want to do. And then there's just this whole thick, dense cloud in front of you called scarcity, called I barely got in, called This is not secure yet, where none of your brilliant thought can get through. Once that cloud comes in, it's like all high quality decisions are out the door. Because the only answer that you could ever have to any decision is whatever feels like it's the most safe, which often is the opposite of what you need to do in your early career. So I just think we need to really... I know a lot of people are now talking about scarcity mindset, whatever, whatever. But I want to deeply humanize and empathize with why we would be in that position. But I think what a lot of us don't realize is there is actually a huge difference once you're in the door. I mean, once you're hired, these jobs are kind of made, there are a lot of protection. It is not easy to fire you. It just isn't, to be frank. And so that alongside a lot of host of other things is just the transition is required, but you're right. There's so much emphasis of that in the beginning because if the haze is still there Like if we're not clearing that haze, it doesn't really matter what we teach you.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

It's so true. And the degree to which that's leveraged in places, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Yes. I mean, that's a whole nother thing. Yes. And then, yeah, there's like, there's the default of it. Sheila's like, no, we're going to go there. And then there's like the fact that scarcity will be invoked to get you to do things against your own interest, which is like, yes. And we go there too, right? We talk about like, what are the intentions of this person? And like, let's step back here. Okay. You said you had more than one. So what's another one? I have

SPEAKER_02 17:03

a couple, but which I promise are like so good. But the second one is like very built into GTG, which was section 2.2. I think maybe a couple of people have mentioned this, but this is the one where you talk about mechanisms of resistance to literally hearing the messages of GTG.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Yes, yes, yes. We call it, yes. This is a self-care at work resistance mechanisms. Yes. I love that you know the lesson number, lesson 2.2. I

SPEAKER_02 17:26

double checked. I actually had it right the first time. So I was like, I think I cried the first time I read that because I was like check check check

SPEAKER_00 17:37

yeah

SPEAKER_02 17:37

not only that but I as I mentioned like I had to do part of the first part of the coaching program in this like kind of like scrabbly way on my own so I felt like I breezed through the first part okay but this was and I was still had these resistance mechanisms very much up and then this part was very much like oh I literally feel this and not only that but I'm also deeply sad that everyone in this group also probably

SPEAKER_01 18:04

literally right right i mean i hear the sadness right like because it's like we're really confronted with what i say is like that voice that companion that has been with us for like way too long on the other hand is it was there any part of you that like felt better maybe not better is not the right word but a little bit lighter knowing that like this is with everybody this is not just me

SPEAKER_02 18:27

yeah very much so

SPEAKER_01 18:29

yeah

SPEAKER_02 18:30

it is healing to start to have that called out on a sheet of paper to you when you're like, it's in my head. It's in my head. Oh, no, no, it's in everybody's.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

And then what was the transition for you going through that lesson to the other side? What did you notice was different for you after you finished the activities there?

SPEAKER_02 18:48

I have heard that people's experiences in that point were very different because I think that is a very like psychologically driven part. But normalizing those feelings just made it very easier to be like, you know what? It's part of the infrastructure. It's part of how we get here, which means that if everyone's feeling the same, we can move on. We can start to deal with this as like part of the process and not I'm a failure.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Exactly. It's like an awareness thing. If you start to understand that, like, it turns out that your definition of hard work isn't something that you just like randomly came up with out of the blue and like, this is just who I am. But it turns out that this like toxic definition of hard work has been like ingrained into your mind and built into you based on the trainings and like based on the pathway that you had to take to get here, that really changes how you're going to react when you have a moment of saying, oh, I don't know if I'm working hard enough. It's like a whole nother like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Whose definition and where did that come from? And it is important because again, it kind of goes back to like why we can't do the things that we know would help improve our lives. So people are all the time, right, Sheila? People are like, well, I just don't know. I mean, I just, I just can't hold these boundaries. I know I should, but I just can't. And I'm like, I believe when you say you can't, I do believe that. But part of that is because as long as this haze, as long as you're in this haze, as long as you're using these definitions of hard work, as long as you're attached to scarcity, you're right. Because those are always going to be more powerful than what you really want. And so it's kind of, to me, it's like a little magical because it's like that awareness goes a long way, a long way

SPEAKER_02 20:33

Very much so. I'm giving one more point, which is tied to all of this, but it is one I'm very attached to for how I thought about the good work you do, which is really like in, I remember there was one discussion in the group coaching calls where someone was talking about challenges of managing both up and down, like in the context, for example, managing a boss while like being in attending on rounds or like that type of context. And I remember kind of bringing to the call this realization that when you're fully aware and acknowledge your own power, it means that you start to be cognizant of how you are affecting managing down as well as managing up. And it helps you empower your trainees. It helps you empower the people you work with. So that's how the culture changes. Yes, that is the goal.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

That's the goal. That is the goal. That is the whole goal. And yeah, I mean, that's like, that's a lot of the why behind what we do is like, you know, I talk a lot about like durable change. This is why we go into how are you thinking about this? How are you conceptualizing this? How have you defined success for yourself? We go into all of that because if we don't, then everything we do is surface and none of it will be durable. None of it. It doesn't matter. And I want the durable change because I want people to leave and then just go be like little radical agents wherever you are, empowering people and being, I think, maybe I think the other thing I'll pull out of what you said is also being, having a, would you identify this way? I don't know. Having a different level of awareness of like the analysis of power dynamics. Yes. Like, yeah, because I think, okay, good. I'm glad because like it's in all ways, like you said, like a different level of awareness of the power you are wielding through your words, through how you speak to people. And then in the same way, like recognizing the power of what you're taking in. and what it really meant when that person said that, or this was how the email was framed, or this is what was said in the faculty meeting. Like that awareness, I feel like all of you, I love that, hear that towards the end, like when we're on the graduation call and stuff, when you are like really having, coming into that fullness of like, oh, I see the pattern now. I don't know. Do you have anything to add there?

SPEAKER_02 22:55

No, I mean, I thought this was hugely important in part because I think that, you've alluded to this in multiple places, but the medical training system is such that it's very easy for people to lose sense of their own power, which means that it's very easy to perpetuate disempowerment of the

SPEAKER_01 23:13

people

SPEAKER_02 23:13

we work with. And this so actively goes against that and starts to break that down. And I love that.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Me too. Me too. What do you have now that you didn't have before you embarked on coaching? Besides all of

SPEAKER_02 23:29

these lovely attributes, I had none of these before there were a couple things that actually besides like all these lovely points but one thing i really like very strongly attribute to gtg that i carry with me like post is sort of being able to like have some distance between something that i find challenging and like considering that a personal failure is what i used to do versus like an iterative process

SPEAKER_01 23:57

like

SPEAKER_02 23:57

we have talked about this before directly and that was a very hard lesson for me to learn and one that I was actively doing so in GTG.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Yeah. I mean, the implications of that are pretty big.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

It's huge. It's such a huge weight off to just be like every skill that we work on is very iterative. In any of the things that I was mentioning that I work on, we iterate all the time. So why should it be any different for this type of skill?

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah, exactly. And being able to understand like these are tools, a lot of this stuff, and that's another kind of unlearning for me. from the training, right? Like that's from the trainings we go through and all of that of like, you know, you are what you can produce. You are like your value, right? Is defined by these things that people are watching you do or not do. So we internalize a lot of that too, to the point where like, right, somebody will design an experiment or do like a research project and the results won't come out the way that they thought they would, which is science. And they will feel personally like a failure. I'm like that, this is, I feel like that is a great example of what we're talking about. It's like, that's what, our culture has created, right? That you are doing exactly what you're supposed to do. Ask a scientific question. Design a study to answer it. The answer is not what you thought it would be. That does not mean that you are a failure. That means that you are a success. You answered the question. But I use that because if you then bring that back to so many other things, it's very similar. I didn't finish the paper I thought I was going to write. Maybe I didn't do it I'm the talk. I don't feel as good after the talk where I thought I would, like all of these things. And I think maybe what I would say one of the themes that you're pulling out just in our short conversation today is like how much empowerment you can get out of separating yourself from these different tasks and events that we have to go through in our careers and then being able to see them as like skills that you can learn and get better at and accomplish. and iterate on over and over. Because to me, that means your journey is one of growth. So as you iterate, you grow, you iterate, you grow. The other way, when it's all internalized, your journey is one of failure. Your journey is one of just constantly not measuring up, not measuring up, not measuring up. I think that's the difference between a successful career or not. I think that's the difference between a satisfying, happy career and not. It's the difference between staying and leaving. Yes. Exactly. Sheila, what advice would you give a woman of color who just signed up for Get That Grant? She wants to get the most out of it. She's like intrigued by what you've said, but she's not sure. I'm

SPEAKER_02 26:46

going to put a first pitch out, which is that I regularly am begging friends to consider doing GTG. Oh

SPEAKER_01 26:54

my God. And you do not have to. We never put a disclaimer on this. I never ask people to do that.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

It's my personal feeling. but they're always like, oh, I'll get around to it. Like, I don't have time. I'm really busy. And then they bring up issues that are discussed routinely in this program. And it makes me crazy. I know. So for like a PSA to like anybody who is like, you know, fellow-ish to like just transitioning, I'm 18 months into the new job. Like I'm begging, get around to it. Sheila is begging you.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Sheila is begging you. Yeah, Sheila's like, all this time you've spent talking about this problem, you could have completed a module Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

A

SPEAKER_01 27:41

little bit. sometimes like the slower like the longer it takes the bigger the breakthrough is on the other side you know it's like they like leapfrog forward I definitely have a lot of I get that but I also get that like you also don't come in until you're ready because like you can't checkbox this like it's not a process where you just come in and like phone it in you know like it doesn't work and so in that sense like it does kind of give me peace because I'm like you know and how many times like well you don't know this this is like my on my end but like there's so many times on the kickoff call people are like I've been listening to the podcast for a year you know I'm finally ready you know what I mean or like I've been following Kemi since 2020 I'm finally ready and I'm kind of like that's good because I want you to get to the point where you're like no I'm ready now to truly commit to invest and to commit and to do this for real because it actually doesn't it really doesn't work if you're not ready yet so I would say that too so be kind and gentle with yourself, but just know that like, you know, it's not true that it can't get better. That's where we'll leave it, Sheila. It's not true that it can't get better.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

That's perfect. Of course it's perfect. Actually, exactly what you were going to say was going to be the other thing I was going to say too, was that this is a coaching program for the individual. There are so many people who like always were worried about like, are they keeping pace with everybody else? And on my exam, on my diagnostic, when we talked, my problems were very focused on section two.

SPEAKER_03 29:32

That's

SPEAKER_02 29:32

what I spent the most time on because that's what I had the problem with. Exactly. And that was fine. And like, I'm much better with the things that I had issues on in section two, because that's what I spent time

SPEAKER_01 29:43

on. Yeah. It's okay. I agree with you. Like, that's part of the reason why we kind of do that assessment, honestly, before you even come in, right? Like it's part of the foundations assessment is like, it's again, it's that like awareness piece. Let's go from chaos. I know things are bad to like, okay, let's actually assess across these, whatever, 16, 18 different different specific actual parameters. Because now you can come in and be like, oh, this is the lesson that maps to that thing. Perfect. I am going to spend more time here because I want to leave with this. You know, where somewhere else where you scored high, you might be like, you know, this was pretty cool. It was good. Check, check, keep going. But yeah, there's a lot there.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

There's a lot there. A lot of unlearning and relearning.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

A lot of unlearning and a lot of opportunity, all the things.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Sheila, was there anything else you wanted to share with us? Yes, I see your, yes, go ahead. tip which was I try to I'm not always the best about it but I try to keep the same GTG time that I used in the program I try to protect that time so that that's my CEO time

SPEAKER_01 30:43

I love that yes that's that is like definitely part of the meta experience you know it's like the I think to me it's like the very first coaching task that you do really after you enroll is like find time just for you you know it's like two hours just for you find it you know and And it's like that, a lot of people are like, that's really hard. I'm like, exactly. This is exactly why we're here. This is step one. This is your first task. You know what I mean? It's like, because the more that you can get used to what that feels like to do, and then what you get out of it, the more you'll believe like, oh, it actually is worth it. It's worth it to me to say no to this, to disappoint this person, whatever. Because if I'm getting another hour a week back, another hour a week back that I can dictate exactly how I'm using it, and I'm really clear about that, I think you start to see like just how powerful that orientation is I think that's what I hear you saying

SPEAKER_02 31:36

very much so and I hadn't heard people mention that yet so I just wanted to be like save that time don't like toss it

SPEAKER_01 31:42

yeah I think that no that's so good this is also for the alumni what's up for the alumni it's like hey don't toss that GTG time away I love that that's such a great idea I mean I still have my CEO blocks on my calendar like I still am like this is when I make decisions don't bother me any other time because you know these decisions have implications and so they're going to be protected. Sheila, this went by so fast. It went by very fast. Can you believe it? I'm like, we have not been talking for half an hour. How?

SPEAKER_02 32:10

In what world? No, this set me up in a way that was like absolutely the opposite of my job search experience, but I am really grateful to have been part of it.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Thank you so much. It was wonderful to have you in the community. Your energy was just always fantastic. And I'm happy that the skills and tools, but also the perspective shifts are still with you.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Very much so.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

All right. Take care, Sheila. Have a great day. Hey there, to be honest, this is uncomfortable for me, but here's the thing. I am getting used to leaning into discomfort. So here is my request for you. I am unapologetically asking you for something. If you listened to this podcast episode and it resonated for you and it was helpful for you, can you double check and see if you follow our podcast on your platform? Make sure that you follow us or subscribe so that you never miss an episode and you don't have to worry about hearing from somebody else an episode was good because it will just automatically download to your device. Here's another thing that would be amazing. If you haven't yet, I would really appreciate if you go on your podcast platform to rate our podcast and to post a review if you love it. It does actually make a difference to people being able to find this podcast who similarly would appreciate the content. And basically, I would appreciate it a lot. So thanks for listening. I do this because I want us all to be in community with an elevated level of conversation. And I hope that you follow us, you like our episodes, and you consider leaving a rating and review if you haven't yet. Thanks so much. Take care. Bye.