Your Unapologetic Career Podcast
Your Unapologetic Career Podcast
178 Coaching Client Spotlight: Mia Yang, MD
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In this episode, Kemi welcomes Dr. Mia Yang, a geriatrician and associate professor at Wake Forest School of Medicine, to discuss her unique journey in the healthcare system. Dr. Yang received her medical degree from University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill School of Medicine and has been in practice between 10+ years. She has expertise in treating diabetes, Alzheimer's dementia, dementia, among other conditions and she is also is an alumnus of our Get That Grant® coaching program!
Join the conversation as Mia shares her insights on the challenges of geriatrics, understanding the complexities of patient care, and the importance of grant writing in creating meaningful change.
Highlights:
- Mia's journey in balancing clinical work and research
- The significance of grant writing and strategic planning
- Building a supportive community and mentorship in healthcare
- Advice for women of color faculty in the Get That Grant® program
Loved this convo? Please go find Dr. Yang on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook and BlueSky (@askdrmia.bsky.social) to show her some love! You can also check out her podcast, Ask Dr. Mia: Answers on Dementia Caregiving, at www.miayangmd.com.
And if you'd like to learn more foundational career navigation concepts for women of color in academic medicine and public health, sign up for our KD Coaching Foundations Series: www.kemidoll.com/foundations.
REMINDER: Your Unapologetic Career Podcast now releases episode every other week! Can't wait that long? Be sure you are signed up for our newsletter (above) where there are NEW issues every month!
in our healthcare system and also in the way that we train future physicians, there is very much this artificial siloing of people into, you know, one specific box. And I have always pushed against this artificial box in all my differentiation. I just can't get these things that are like the least differentiated. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:That is so like hashtag get that grant Katie coach value. Like I feel like it's like people People just constantly resisting the label, resisting the box, crossing fields, being interdisciplinary in all ways. If you feel that way, if you're listening to me and you're like, that really sounds like me, then you really need to stay for the rest of this conversation because I think what we're going to get into is how that is activating for you, how you have all that passion, but also how that can be challenging within the structures that we are within. Hello, hello. You are listening to Your Unapologetic Career. Being a woman of color faculty in academic medicine who wants to make a real difference with your career can be tough. Listen, these systems are not built for us, but that doesn't mean we can't make them work for us. In each episode, I'll be taking a deep dive into one core growth strategy so you can gain confidence and effectiveness Thank you so much for joining us. Hello, hello, and welcome back to the show, folks. I'm really excited today to be talking to one of our Get That Grant alumni. These are so fun, really interesting conversations for me because I've said before, but I repeat myself and I'm good with it. It never ceases to amaze me how much something that was created years ago when I felt like I was in such deep struggle figuring out how to do this career, et cetera, is continuing to give back to other people years and years and years down the line. And it's a testament to how much at the time when I was writing this curriculum, it felt like a really ridiculous thing to do. There's like all these other priorities going, but I just felt like this is really calling to me and following that really paid off. And so I really want to thank you, Mia, for being here today and like contributing to that experience that I get to have. And I'm really excited for the rest of our listeners to hear more about you and your work. So with that said, can you let them know who you are and kind of where you are in the world and then what kind of work you do.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Doll Kemi. Oh, you better call me Kemi. Okay. All right. I don't know. I'm jumping into the doctor here. My name is Mia Yang. I am a geriatrician and associate professor within Wake Forest School of Medicine in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, and that I do a spectrum of work clinically ranging from home-based medical care all the way to inpatient care, but my research focus is really on dementia care models, kind of translating clinical trials, models of care that are comprehensive and collaborative with patients and family caregivers into routine clinical practice.
SPEAKER_01:I love it. I had two thoughts. One is I just think it's so interesting how so many of you in Get That Grant that come through are like doing the kind of work that like often here people are like, why, how come the healthcare system is so broken? And how come somebody is not figuring out how to do this? or make this easier. And I always wanna be like, we are. A lot of people who specifically wanna ask these kinds of questions to make your healthcare experience better and make it make more sense. And yet it's not easy to do, right? And so that was like my very first thought was just wanting to like rah-rah for the fact that a lot of us really are trying to make sense of this insanely broken system. My second question was, can you tell folks what a geriatrician is and then what made you want to go into that field? specifically? Because I think it calls to a certain, there's like a clear interest there to choose geriatrics.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So this is funny because when I was going through geriatric fellowship, so it's an additional specialization, usually after people finish internal medicine or family medicine residency. And I say it like a pediatrician for young children, a geriatrician is a doctor who is specialized in the care of older adults. And you might think, well, there should be lots of geriatricians with the boomers getting older and Medicare funding so much of, you know, postgraduate medical education. But there are still very, very few of us. And in fact, there are declining number of people who are choosing to go into geriatrics for a multitude of reasons. But I think some of it comes from there's not enough of us to be in medical education to show learners how great the field of geriatrics
SPEAKER_02:could
SPEAKER_00:be. But I also think there's other structural issues like the fact that insurance typically pays for procedural specialties higher than a cognitive specialty. And that ageism is alive and real, y'all. Both internalized and external. And so why did I decide to go into geriatrics? I think it's really, initially I chose geriatric really as almost like an extension of my internal medicine training. I just felt like I wanted to learn more about all the places, all the settings that my patients go through. And I think geriatrics fellowship really kind of fills those gaps that have been traditionally missing in typical adult medicine training, which is, you know, nursing home, rehab facilities, hospice, home care, all of the things that's kind of a mix of neural Thank you so much. work with community organizations, gosh, I mean, just the type of knowledge that we have really should be more widely disseminated. And yet, why are fewer and fewer trainees deciding to go into geriatrics? I think it's something that the field has really grappled with.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I thank you for that really comprehensive kind of 360 look at it, like why you wanted to do it, which was this desire to understand more. I know what you mean. about the black box. It's like they get discharged and it's like, good luck, you know? And it's like, I remember, I mean, it's been a long time, but I still do remember my internal medicine rotation days where it was like, I just remember like the whole goal is to get the person to a SNF, which is a skilled nursing facility, but we say SNF because SNF. And like, I just also remember how it was like, and that was it. It was like out of the imagination. It's like, oh, the social worker figured out a SNF, it's done. But of course you're looking at the person the day they're leaving and you're like, what is about to happen to you? Like, You're going from this inpatient setting to where, to what, and you know, there's the inevitable bounce backs and all that. So I hear what you're saying about like being oriented, going towards those black boxes for you. You were like, no, I want to actually know the full story. I want to, I want to understand it. And the complexity of it is not intimidating to me. And I don't know anything specifically about geriatrics and like the conversations you all are having in the field, but I think that any field, and I include mine in this, any field where there's like either clear or increasing challenges or barriers or things to the field, we really do have to get out there to communicate to people like what is so desirable? What is so interesting? What is so activating about that? Because I don't know. I just think that I see a trend where people are like, I've worked really hard, you know, and I like, I don't want to add to my hardship. And I'm always like, of course, like nobody wants you to add to your hardship. But on the other side, Mia, I want you to have a career that feels fulfilling. And if you're choosing your career just based on the fact that it feels easy, you're going to get bored. Like you really are. And then like, you don't know what it's like to be looking at decades in a job that doesn't give you, it doesn't excite you. It doesn't challenge you. It doesn't do anything like that. So that is my mini lecture about the topic in general. But I totally hear you about that interesting dichotomy. And do you feel this way like sometimes there's like a certain pride though I have and like I pick something that people you know what I mean that like you really have to pick this it's not a default pathway and I'm like proud to like be a part of it do you feel that internally too I
SPEAKER_00:do I do feel oftentimes that there's a bit of a chip on my shoulder in the sense that you know I sometimes even hear from colleagues in internal medicine like why would you do a geriatric fellowship like I take care of older adults you know but that's not that's not the same and it's a different, it kind of undermines the specialist additional training and
SPEAKER_02:understanding.
SPEAKER_00:And I do think that geriatrics in particular is a very, both a very holistic field in the sense that when we think of problems, we don't think of it as a disease focus. We think of it as functionally focused. So, you know, the classic four M's of geriatrics, those would be, you know, medications, milk mentation or mood, and then what matters most. So those cross organs and cross disease states, which I think it's really ultimately what's most important. But I think that in our healthcare system and also in the way that we train future physicians, there is very much this artificial siloing of people into one specific box. And I have always pushed against this artificial box in all my differentiation. I just kept picking things that are like the least differentiated. Yes. Oh, I'm just going to resist. I'm going to resist.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my God. That is so like hashtag get that grant Katie coach value. Like I feel like it's like people just constantly resisting the label, resisting the box, like crossing fields, right. Being interdisciplinary, like in all ways. If you feel that way, if you're listening to me and you're like, that really sounds like me, then you really need need to stay for the rest of this conversation, because I think what we're going to get into is how that is activating for you, how feeling that way is activating for you, how you have all that passion, but also how that can be challenging within the structures that we are within. So that's what we're going to get into. So with that said, why don't you tell us a little bit about what challenges you were having and like where you were in your career, what was going on when you were like, I need coaching help, or I'm going to at least give this a try. What wasn't working for you.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So I have been exposed to kind of personal life coaching before I really started get that grant. And I have been in other professional development programs, both sort of, yeah, mostly internally within the institution. And I always felt like there wasn't a great fit for me as someone who wanted to straddle both clinical work and research. I always felt like I was sort of in between fields, whether it's within geriatrics itself, but also larger context of, you know, how do I not only make research work for its academic outputs, but how do I actually make it make real change in real people's lives? Yeah, right. Beyond
SPEAKER_01:my number of papers. Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:exactly. I want research to be a method to create change rather than the product. Yes!
SPEAKER_01:Sorry, I can't help it. It's a tool. Research is a tool. It's right. These professional development programs that you had been in and stuff were just like, I'm sure they were helpful. It's not being a hundred percent disparaging, but just like there was this limit. They weren't really speaking to like your orientation maybe around what you were trying to do. Is that right?
SPEAKER_00:Yes. And I also think that when it comes to grant writing, there's a very different focus when you're a clinician versus if you're primarily doing research And I've never been someone who was 80% or 85% devoted to research, partly because I tried unsuccessfully writing for a K-23 for three years until I felt like I was really trying to squeeze myself like a round peg into a square hole. And so I've always needed a different set of tools to be able to one, set my clinical responsibilities as to really focus and prioritize my research interests. But also I felt like my mentors, both internally and externally, were either not doing the type of research that I wanted to do or that they were great at what they did, but couldn't really translate that to teach me to how to do it myself. Yep. Amen. And so I actually found you after I was promoted to associate professor because I was like, okay, I've gotten lucky with sponsorship and mentorship so far to get promoted, but I really need to kick this up a notch in terms of doing some of the grant writing and the way of thinking about my career in a more, I don't know if systematic is the right way, but in a way that serves me for the sustainable future and not just kind of push here, push there, kind of do it sporadically depending on who is telling me to do what.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. Yeah. I follow you a hundred percent. I think, I think what a lot of people experience is like, Ooh, I got really good advice clinically. And then they do that and they're like, okay, but this does not work for what I want to do in research. And then they get, they're like, Ooh, I got really great research advice. And then they try that and they're like, I cannot do this, my clinic. Like, and so what they're constantly experiencing is this, like, I guess I'm devoted to this during this season. And then, and it just, like you said, it's not sustainable. And you start to realize, like, it's not really a good feeling to feel like that intention. Like, oh, if I am doing what I'm supposed to be doing over here in this part of my job, I am actively not doing what I'm supposed to be doing in this other area that I also care about. Like, that's not what we're trying to do. So I think that's what you're speaking to as well. And unfortunately, institution, I mean, institutional culture is, I think, still really slow to change from this model of, like you said, 80% research, 85%, like basically you don't have clinical concerns versus or the opposite. And I think there are a of people like you that are like, no, I am in the middle and want to do real work, like want to make a difference. Okay. So what is a moment and get that grant where something really shifted for you where maybe you had that thought that you're like, okay, this really is different from these prior experiences I had. And I feel like this is going to give me what I need.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think I have already been a pretty self-responsible person where I didn't need as much of the coaching in terms of plan Yeah. having sort of a common project scope where I think I was writing grants with sort of a common project scope, but it was never elucidated in such a cool way. But then also this timeline, I felt like so much grant writing advice doesn't account for the timeline, but I have to account for the timeline.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Why do we
SPEAKER_00:pack people up like that? Sorry, go ahead. I'm like, I need to cover my salary, the part that I'm not seeing people. Yes. Amen. Yes. Yes. Yes. I feel like that is a part where I probably didn't get enough feedback or that I wasn't asking for specific enough feedback to just focus on the big picture. But I couldn't tell them that actually, no, I need you to like look at the big pictures first and tell me whether there are collaborators that I should have or that I don't instead of getting into the weeds right from the beginning.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Oh, my gosh. I love this answer. I'm so glad we get to talk about grants. Okay, so I agree. And I think it's interesting because you also shared how you had a multi-year experience with trying to apply for a K. And this is the first time that you heard what I would say is grant writing and grants. grant-getting professional development that is focused on strategy and execution. And I think we kind of, the traditional way I think is more focused on, I don't know, kind of grantsmanship, which does matter, you know, to some degree. But like you said, if you can't actually get it done, and if you don't know how to get your building blocks together, good ones, like really strong things, then none of that matters because it all falls apart so quickly. So things like the Common Project Scope help you know what feedback to take. Like this is so basic. Like if you know your common project scope, then you know when somebody makes a suggestion that is outside of that, it might be a great suggestion, but you're like, yeah, I'm not going to do that because that's not what I'm doing. Whereas people always, they're like, well, how do you know people have conflicting advice and what do you take? I'm like, because you have to get so much more clear first and then you have to know what you are asking. Like, what are you asking somebody for? And so I really love that you highlighted that because I think even that alone starts to change your experience of the feedback loops, because now you have a filter on like what you're using and why. I think the work that we do around like the mentor optimization and stuff like that, like kind of turning on those power analysis skills, I think also helps people understand the different perspective. So it's like, oh, this is great advice from your perspective, like you were saying before, right? But from where I'm trying to go, it actually makes no sense. These are things that I think actually most people need to explicitly learn and practice and then see how it comes together in a grant application. And then I think, yeah, the feedback loops. I love that. I still use those. And I don't know if this happened to you in your K-23 or not, but like, I think that what can happen too is that I do think we hear Mia a lot. We hear the advice, like get early feedback. Like, don't you, I think you hear that a lot. Like, oh, you know, don't wait till the last minute, get early feedback. But to me, that's not specific enough. Like on what, so people will kind of, maybe they'll throw together a specific aims page or maybe they'll like try to work really far in advance and put everything together and then be like, okay, now I'm just going to revise it for six months. Because for six months, you're changing your mind about what you're doing over and over again. First of all, that sounds exhausting. And it's really hard to get to a place where you feel like you're building confidence. Whereas one of the things we talk about is how critical that first round of feedback is. That is what you mentioned, which is, does this idea fly? Does it float? Does it make sense? Unless like why or why not? And I think what scares people about that is this idea that like other people can tell you it doesn't make sense and it's over, but it's not. It's more like you've got to know your blind spots. That's what it is. It's doing, it's like, you think it makes sense totally. And then somebody can come and tell you like, okay, but what about this? And that helps you refine it early, super early. So there's a lot more to that, but I just thank you for sharing, getting into the nitty gritty with grants with me. Cause you know, I love them so much, but often we end up talking about purpose mantra and the spotlight episodes. It makes me happy to talk about grants.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And I feel like in terms of the common project scope, what I was doing was also writing to fit into grants announcement, funding announcement, rather than deciding what it is that I want to do and then trying to find the funding sources to match that. Or picking a project because it's feasible, but not because it's exciting.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Oh, that's horrible. Because something's only feasible as long as you have the willpower to do it. Right. Where is your willpower coming from when you are not excited about it and tired? I'm like, guys, don't do it.
SPEAKER_00:But that's literally some of the mentorship advice that I've gotten. Because, you know, say like, if you build your K on this larger grant, then, you know, it's easier for you to get it. But then again, this larger grant may not serve the purpose that Exactly. So then
SPEAKER_01:what are we doing? feeling first step before you go. But often the way that it's operationalized is what you said. It's like, well, this is feasible and it's easy and it's this and it's that. So make this your first step. But it's like, oh, but that doesn't go where I'm trying to go. Then what are we doing? And I think those grants, they are not as well written. There's not as much passion. There's not, it's like, you can feel the fact that there's a disconnect between what the person is really trying to do. So yeah, I think that's a really important point that I just love to reemphasize on this episode that like, I need people to stop doing that and And what grant strategy is for me is to say, okay, this is my idea. And maybe I know that it feels too big or whatever. What you want is thought partners who can help you break it down. Not people who are going to tell you to do something else, but somebody who can be like, oh, I see exactly what you're trying to do. This is how we can pull it back. This is how we can make the first step feasible. Not, well, I happen to have this lying around, so you might as well do that and then figure it out. Do you know, I even had a mentor once who told me, I cannot believe this happened. He was like, well, it doesn't matter. It doesn't really matter what you write your K about because once you get the money, you can just like do whatever you want. I mean, as long as you do something. And I was like, what? He was like, yeah, like nobody's really going to check to see like what you actually did. So my first thought was you're a white man.
SPEAKER_00:Second thought is you're just spending all this time and energy and training to do something that you are not actually going to do. Okay. All
SPEAKER_01:right. Mia, Kenya. you imagine? I thought this is what they mean about the audacity. I was like, I don't, I wanted to be like, yeah, so I don't do that. Like, I don't operate that way. I don't say I'm going to do things, planning not to do it. That is like, I could not even force myself to do that. But it did make me think like, no wonder people are lost, you know, like no wonder. And yeah, there's more there, but let's keep going. So I love how people answer this question. So I'll just ask you the way it's written. What do you have now that you didn't have before embarking on the Get That Grant program?
SPEAKER_00:I think I have a grant strategy that I did not have before. Yes. But I also think that the community of Get That Grant and now I'm fully funded, kind of having that community of other women, you know, clinician researchers is also really empowering to feel like we're in this together and that I have have a non-institutionally dependent source of feedback and help. And there's politics everywhere, but there are politics where I am, where sometimes if I align with someone else's work, I can get usurped into their research agenda rather than doing something that is really what I want to do. And I also feel like, I think from my main mentors perspective like he has done a lot to help me get to where I am in terms of my career but he is not someone who is going to give me the type of grant writing strategy that I now have because yeah get that grant
SPEAKER_01:thank you it makes me happy I'm glad you got what you needed and I want to say that like that's okay and we need to get out of the model that one person or even your mentor team is going to do everything like it's almost like what going back to being a geriatric and recognizing what like, we're not going to fix people just by seeing them in clinic and the hospital. Like it's a multi-pronged kind of approach. That's what I think about this coaching program and the experiences and everything is that like, it's not saying there's no value in institutional work or your mentors, whatever. It's just saying there's a lot to navigate here. And if you happen to be kind of like one of our people, like we talked about at the beginning, you know, if you have to be passionate about what you do and you have a marginalized identity and like all these things like come together You care a lot. It turns out there are a lot of ways you can channel that productively and thoughtfully to get where you're wanting to go a little bit easier. And not all of that. I think, honestly, most of that is not necessarily going to be within and taught within the walls of your institution. And so to me, it's just it's about the holistic approach. OK, so we are going to be gearing up soonish by the time, especially this airs, where a new cohort is going to be starting. So what advice would you give a woman of color faculty like you who just signed up? for GTG and they want to get the most out of it?
SPEAKER_00:I would say pace yourself. Don't worry and don't get overwhelmed by all of the content and just kind of do a little bit at a time. And I know I certainly didn't make all of the coaching sessions and that's totally okay. Listen to them after the fact. And I also think that having a buddy to check in has been really helpful as well, given everything crazy that's going on in our world right now, just having that community of other people who are going through something similar is really helpful.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I love it. You heard it from me at first pace yourself. Pace yourself. Thank you so much. This was so lovely. And I'm glad we got to talk. And I just really appreciate you sharing with our larger podcast community here your experience.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01:All right.
SPEAKER_00:Take care.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for tuning in to the Your unapologetic career podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode and want to keep the conversation going, here's what you can do. First, subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts or whatever platform you prefer so you never miss an episode. Your support helps us reach more listeners like you. Second, I'd love to hear from you. Text us any questions you have about this episode or just to show us some love. The link to text is in the show notes. Don't be shy. If you're interested in gynecologic health, make sure to sign up for my newsletter Dr. Kemi Dole and the Womb at www.kemidole.com slash womb. It comes out once a month and it's packed with valuable insights. For those looking to enhance their careers, you can join our career foundation series for exclusive tips at www.kemidole.com slash foundations. This also comes out monthly and is a great way to keep your career on the right track. And finally, if you're a We can connect in all types of ways. You can follow me on social media at my full government name, Kemi Dole, K-E-M-I-D-O-L-L for daily inspiration and updates. Thank you again for being part of our community.