Industry Leaders Podcast with Daine McDonald

Episode 1 with Bill Campbell PhD - Bringing the latest science to real world results

March 11, 2021 Bill Campbell PhD Season 1 Episode 1
Industry Leaders Podcast with Daine McDonald
Episode 1 with Bill Campbell PhD - Bringing the latest science to real world results
Show Notes Transcript

In this, the first Clean Health Fitness Institutes Industry Leader's Podcast, we interview Bill Campbell PhD. With an indepth career in the health and fitness sector and running a fitness lab, Bill is well placed to provide insight you wont want to miss.
In this Episode learn about Body Building, Physique Competitions and Protein as well as the Power of Sleep and so much more.

The Industry Leaders Podcast is designed for people interested in improving their body and mind... nutrition, training, business, mindset and longevity, we cover it all with world renowned experts each week.

It's hosted by Clean Health Founder, Daine McDonald, a former personal trainer and nutrition coach, who as CEO of one of the worlds largest fitness education providers, is responsible for educating over 70,000 coaches worldwide.

His team consists of industry experts such as Layne Norton PhD, Bill Campbell PhD, Hattie Boydle, Sebastian Oreb, Brian Mark, Jackson Peos PhD, Cole Dasilva and many more!

For more information visit:

(upbeat music)- Welcome everyone to this is Episode One. Our very first of the Industry Leaders podcast with myself Kim Leggett from Clean Health and I'm lucky enough to be joined by my co-host who is the founder-- I dunno if lucky is the word but-- Lucky for me.(laughing) Daine McDonald.- Yeah, that would be complimenting myself too much. One could argue that I'm lucky to be here with you too right. It's great to be here. I mean, I'm super curious about this show as you are, actually, ironically we through our listeners we had to recall this after we did our first interview because of obviously timing constraints because I went overseas, right?- That's right- Yeah.- When are we leaving now?- So I may not know. So, Kim, obviously through our listeners out there I know you and your background and what you're about, but for somebody that has never tuned into Kim tell us a little bit about yourself.- So I feel like this is a dating one-on-one question. In a nutshell basically back in the day I was in Mr and Miss Malaysia so my background on my CD probably says that that I was once a beauty queen. From that I guess I also previously was into athletics. I was very sporty as a teenager. I was a state sprinter. And because I was so athletic and very involved in sports I naturally gravitated towards the gym. From then once I moved to Melbourne I got into training. I go into physique competition so I competed in IBB a few times now, ANB as well. So I'm a bikini competitor now, that then became a passion of mine that then spawned into a career so hence now I'm a coach. So fast forward to today where I'm a online coach and personal trainer, face to face as well as working for Claim Health.- And where's this accent of yours from?(laughing)- This is another question that I love to play here so I am a Malaysian with British roots. The accent is a slight cross between Canadian, American, Australian but I went in international school.- And I think, I mean, obviously you mentioned before like what you're doing career-wise, obviously you had a lot of PR and community management for what you do with CHFI but then you've also got your coaching business on the side. Like what type of clients are you generally working with? I mean, obviously you're blending the corporate side of fitness in regards to still being in the trenches working with clients, like what is the average type of client that comes to you who is your demographic?- I think just generally and this is for anyone who's listening as well. You will just gravitate more to having a lot more general population clients. That's just going to be your bread and butter. In essence, my clients are general population but because of my interests and my success in physique competitions I also have many females who are comp prep clients specifically wanting to compete in WPF or IBB. Other than that, just general population people who want to lose fat and gain muscle.- And I mean, in terms of like day-to-day for you with your career I mean, obviously, a lot of people listening to this right now, PTs they're getting up early, they're doing their clients like go through a day in the life of you and then I can kind of go through a day in the life of me.

- All right, so alarm goes off at 4:

40, Kim either wakes up and then does her own training or I train clients prior to then jumping on online at my desk and doing my Clean Health duties and then repeat that meeting. So it's either I'm training in the evening or training clients, whether(indistinct) chickens, et cetera and that's kind of a day in the life off really. And how about you?- Well, I mean, look just same as you in essence you're working two full time jobs, and I think that one of the reasons why I came up with a concept these Industry Leaders podcast is we've been very fortunate at Clean Health since 2008 when I founded the company that people have looked at us as leaders in the industry, which I'm super grateful for. But I think one of the things that sometimes people remember is that to achieve that recognition or that brand or that acknowledgement, it doesn't come easy and you've got to put a lot of work into what you're doing. I think you're embodying that philosophy right now in your day to day. So for a lot of trainers that are out there right now it's like success doesn't happen overnight. And obviously with this podcast I wanted us to be able to bring together some of the best in the industry worldwide. So whether or not it's in nutrition, training, in research, strength coaches, doctors, sports psychologists, whatever it is in our industry I wanted to bring them all together so that we can hear from the best and the brightest as you would have known from our first interview today, one of the common denominators I know from anyone that is in this industry that has a brand, that has a profile that is considered an industry leader is they've got to work for it. I recently moved as you know, so I moved from my family home which was selling right now and I've been fortunate enough to move by the ocean if you're watching this on YouTube you can obviously see that. But I heard a friend of mine saying,"Wow you're so lucky live there." And I stopped him I said,"Luck is not it, mate."Luck is not why I'm here, I'm here because 10 years ago"I set the intention that that is where I wanted to live." And I've approached my career within the fitness industry every day not only trying to be the best, but put myself in a financial position where I can provide that for myself and family. So I think these are the type of things, the philosophies, the core teachings and the type of people that we want to bring onto this show. And I for one I'm excited.- Oh, me too. And I think as well, now turning the page to yourself Daine I feel like you're the man, the myth, the legend. I remember when I was about... I think when I first came to Melbourne actually it was a fitness expo and I was just walking around and actually I knew of you at the time and I remember going,"Oh God, that's Daine McDonald from Clean Health." So I know you very well in terms of your background and how you've come to be such a-- That would have been in 2015.- Yeah, I think it's longer than that.- Yeah, yeah, it would have been 2015 'cause we actually, we took down about 15 of our team members and we had a booth there right next to the stadium. We ran an event there called the Strength Sport Challenge. So I had like Heady Boyd, WBFF pro and fitness model world championship was involved, Bashan Orb was involved. You didn't come and say hi 'cause I would have remembered you.(laughing)- No, I was just scared.- Gosh, I'm not an intimidating guy trust me. Although back then though I would dare say I have and look it's part of why we're on this and doing this show is to learn, evolve and grow. I think back then as well like I probably carried more of an ego than I do now and I was probably a bit more off standish, but one thing that I've learned in my life is just to be honest, chill the fuck out and just kind of be happy with what you've got and be very grateful for what you've got.- So I was just saying that I know you very well but do you mind giving us a spiel of how you've come to be where you are today?- Yeah, I mean, look I started in industry in 2002. It's when I did my cert three, cert four and fitness which is your standard personal training qualification here, started training clients casually. Then over the next few years I did some diplomas, human movement degree and within a five-year period, I've been working for Fuse in commercial gym chains. And in 2006, I came across into fitness first was fitness first St. Leonard's on Sydney's lower North shore. And within six weeks of being there I was doing about 50 PT sessions a week. And one of the reasons why I was up still especially those that are practicing in the trenches is one never stop practicing what you preach. And then two, never stop learning. Because at the end of the day, I used to sit at kind of 95 kilos and sub 10% body fat year round. So people just used to come to me because of the way I looked it was an added bonus when I opened my mouth and they realized that I wasn't just some handsome looking young guy, right. They'd basically like,"Wow, this guy actually knows what he's talking about." So I think that there are two key philosophies for trainers that kind of with Clean Health we've always been very big on, but it's been a roller coaster. I mean, I started Clean Health in 2008 and we're going into year 13 now we now gone from being a one man band to having a bunch of trainers working in commercial gyms to having our own facilities and our own facilities to teaching our first internships, to traveling around the world teaching to where we are today which is basically a 100% remotely run. So we've got team members around Australia and in Asia that worked for us remotely. We have no company head office anymore. And our entire product offering is a 100% ed tech or Edutech digital education. So we provide accredited qualifications, ongoing industry, professional development and then nutrition coaching software and insurance for fitness professionals around the world. So our business model has changed a lot. We've gone from being in-person to digital. Obviously I've been there every step, every minute, every hour of the way since then it's been quite a journey, but heading into about what we're doing as a business and our mission, which for me it's always been just to, initially it was to raise the health of all of the clients that walk through our door and give them lifelong and everlasting change but today it's about raising the standard of fitness professionals around the world because at the end day fitness professionals around the world are there on the frontline of this global obesity pandemic that is currently forget COVID, it's a global obesity pandemic. If that wasn't as prevalent you probably wouldn't have as much issues with all of the illnesses that that are going out there. In fact, the research is very clear on that when it comes to metabolic syndrome, type two diabetes, et cetera. So the more information that we can give personal trainers around the world the better, and one of our key points of difference compared to other educators out there is that our content is created by the trainers for the trainers, at the end, yes I'm a business owner and all of that type of stuff. And my focus for the day, I'm a PT and my qualifications are in personal training and nutrition they're not in business. So everything that we're doing, it's coming from that angle, it's coming from... I've been in your shoes, you're in those shoes right now, Kim and it's about providing evidence-based information that is also practical in real world because there's no point in having all of this knowledge if you can't apply it because you can't out train a bad diet and the best diet in the world is meaningless for example, if they're not following it. So know that's what kind of our company's about. That's been the mission behind it for the last going into 13 years now. And I think this podcast that you and I are doing together is really just going to be an extension of that. And the best thing about it is it's free.- That's right.- All right, Kim, so tell us a little bit today a little bit about our guest today, Dr. Bill Campbell, what's he about? Where's he from? And what are we hoping to learn from him today?- Yeah, so for Episode One today on the topic of Blending the Latest Science with Real-World Results we are talking to Dr. Bill Campbell. So he is a Professor of Exercise Science and the Director of the Performance and Physique at Enhancement Lab at the University of South Florida and also forms part of the Clean Health Fitness Institute Academic Advisory Board. So Bill is a man of many talents. He is a researcher and author. He has published more than 150 scientific papers and abstracts in academic journals related to sports nutrition and physique enhancement. So his main foray of expertise is bodybuilding and especially training nutrition amongst bodybuilders and people who are within the arena of weight loss and weight gain in terms of-- Yeah and look, I think it's obviously it's a topic close to home for us at Clean Health. I mean, when it comes to physique athletes and bodybuilders, I mean we've got a long history, spanning back to 2009 of training national champions in these events, and I think the thing I like about Bill I've had a lot of chats with him offline. He obviously parts forms part of our academic advisory board, that's a global board of some of the world's best in fitness industry business, coaching, academia et cetera, that we're really putting together for 2021 to help shape the future of our industry. So he's a really smart guy. I mean even myself, I'm not in the trenches coaching clients anymore but I can listen to this guy talk and he has a really good way of digesting science and presenting it in a way that you can take it as a trainer or coach and start to apply it. So to me, I'm super excited about this episode and what we're going to hear from Bill.- Yeah, I'm excited too. Time to get him on. All right, so today we're going to be joined by our really special guest, Bill Campbell who is a Professor of Exercise Science and the Director of Performance and Physique Enhancement at the University of South Florida and forms part of the Clean Health Academic Advisory Board. Now there's a lot more to Bill than I can talk about in about a 32nd piece. So we're going to hand it straight over to Bill. Bill thank you so much for joining us on Episode One of the Industry Leaders podcast.- You're breaking us in like you're the first.- I love it. Honored to be the first one.- And today's topic as well Blending the Latest Science with Real-World Results with yourself. So given that you are the expert in this field we thought no better than to get you on board to answer lots of questions. We've gotten to heaps of things to talk about. So I'm going to jump into it straight away.- Awesome, so I'll just give a little background about myself. I guess, as you said, a Professor of Exercise Science at the University of South Florida, which is located in Tampa, Florida, and I basically get to live about my passion every day. We essentially study how to lose body fat and gain or maintain muscle mass. And I like to say that my research helps people optimize their physiques within a maintainable lifestyle. So what does that mean? It means that I study bodybuilders because they're the experts in fat loss. And I also study obese individuals because they also attempt to lose body fat. So I studied both extremes and I really have a focus on people who don't necessarily want to step on stage, but who just want to look better. Maybe they want to look like they want to step on stage, but they don't actually want to do it. They don't want to go through all of the tanning, all of the extreme measures to step on stage. So that's kind of where my research helps people. So I put a big emphasis on a maintainable lifestyle.- Right, now how did you actually get to come about that type of research? Like what's your background? What led you into that sort of arena as an interest?- Yeah, so my first career was actually in marketing and sales. I used to sell herbicides and pesticides so I sold bug killers and weed killers.- Wow I didn't know that.- Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is my career number two. So I wasn't real passionate about killing bugs but I was passionate about bodybuilding and sports supplements and lifting weights. So I'd get home from my job and I would just read about nutrition and exercise. So in my mid 20s I said maybe I should do something that I'm actually interested in. So I started a pretty long journey to go back to school.'Cause I didn't have any science classes during my business degree. So I had to start basically from scratch, take all of my anatomy, physiology, chemistry, organic chemistry, biochemistry all of those classes to start this new career. And I got a master's in exercise physiology. And then I got a PhD in exercise nutrition and preventative health that was from Baylor University. And my dream was to kind of run my own lab. I wanted to have my own lab and I didn't care where I lived but like any great husband I asked my wife,"Where do you want to live?" And her answer was,"I don't care where we live as long as it's hot." So that eliminated half the country in America. So I applied to jobs only in warm climates. And I was very blessed to get a job at the University of South Florida, which is in Tampa. So very hot, today it's probably 70 degrees and sunny there. I'm actually in Pennsylvania as we're recording this but I've been there for 13 years and my career started off studying more sports nutrition. And I got to move over the last five years into my passion is which is physique enhancement.- In terms of like the type of how many studies per annum are you guys running these days? How much research are you bringing to the forefront annually do you feel these those?- So that's a very good question I have in my core value. So I have a mission statement for my lab. We have core values. One of our core values is to keep things simple. So one thing I refuse to do is to try to do 20 studies or 10 studies per year. We focus on doing quality studies at the expense of quantity. So we typically do pretty large weight loss studies. And when I say weight loss, again this is for people who are already lean and fit who want to look a little leaner who want to get more fit. We will do about anywhere from two to four studies per year, which is a lot but it's, again, I don't have the goal of trying to do more research than other people. I want to have a very simple study designed that we can execute on because we're tracking all of our subjects, macronutrients every day, every gram we're watching every workout, we're testing their metabolisms like incessantly throughout this period. So a lot of people do a lot more volume but I again, I don't fall into that trap, quality-- I think we're very big on that I guess as an organization ourselves, it's quality over quantity, it's all well and good having that scatter gun approach where you try and do anything and everything, but quality counts right. And I think that's how you build up a reputation for getting results and for excellence. And, I guess start to attract the right type of people to what you're doing. So obviously there's been a lot of pros and cons and yeas and nays on that over the last decade. I mean, what's your opinion on tempo training? Do you still feel it has its place when it comes to hypertrophy? Is it something that doesn't matter? Would you also care to explain some of the recent data about stimulating reps like we'll hand it over to you what are your thoughts?- The research that I've read on this is that it doesn't appear to be more beneficial than not doing tempo training. It's no worse. It doesn't cause you to not get as many benefits but I don't see my interpretation of that literature. It's not giving you a benefit. Now I always like to answer these questions. What do I do in my own life? What I typically do is I tried to go a little slower on the eccentric. I like to control the weight and I like to try to go as fast as I can on the concentric because the more explosive you can be on the concentric the more muscle fibers you're going to activate the more type two muscle fibers. So if I can activate more muscle fibers now I'm activating a greater hypertrophic stimulus. So I try to go fast on the concentric and control the eccentric. So if I were to say what this is, it's probably like a one second concentric and a two second eccentric.- So for you it's a programming variable that is much of much, it's not that important but it's more something that maybe from like a compliance perspective you feel it might have some relevance like what about with clients that in training movement patterns and things like that you feel it might have some application there with those types of people that are just learning how to move?- Yeah, I definitely, I like to feel the muscle I don't like gravity or momentum taking over a lift. So that's why I like a slower eccentric or controlling it. Basically if I'm working with somebody and let's say they're new if I say at any point in their lift, stop can they stop it? That's the kind of control I would want them to have.- Yeah.- Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, I think as, as well as being able to stop and move, stop in a dead stop position, whether it's on a bench or a squat then move out of that position so that you can actually control the weight. And you're probably not progressing the client too fast therefore likely limiting their risk for injury and et cetera so, no, it makes sense.- That is something that in my research we actually program for. So I would hold this on a very high pedestal. So I would say if the goal is hypertrophy if I give you a weight, let's say we're looking at a rack of dumbbells from the lightest smallest to the heaviest. I don't care which one you choose. You should take that sec to near failure. And I define failure, there's two different terms in the literature. There's total failure, which means you lift that weight until you cannot move it anymore. I don't believe you need to go there. There's something else called technical failure which is where you keep lifting that weight until you don't think you can do another rep with good form. So in my research on this, and by the way I've just spent a tremendous amount of time looking at this very issue because I'm working on a physique coaching diploma and I've literally looked at every single study that's been published in the English language on this. And my impression of that literature is if you take each set to about one or two reps, shy of technical failure you get the same hypertrophic benefit. And in some cases it's even better than taking it to failure. Now, if you do take it to failure let's say you take it all the way til you can't even move the weight. It appears that the hypertrophic stimulus is not compromised but what is compromised is power production. So if you're an athlete, you have to be careful because you don't want to reduce your power output and your level of fatigue is significantly higher so you not going to recover as fast. So let me summarize, if your goal is to build the biggest muscle possible go to about one or two reps shy of failure to where you can't keep lifting with good form. And that will maximize the hypertrophic stimulus from that set. And I believe other than your warmup sets you should take almost every set to that point.- Yeah and look I have these chats with our Head of Research and Development, Stefan Ianev often and standing that he's very big on is exactly what you've just spoken about. And it's what we actually teach in our performance PT certification program when it comes to hypertrophy in particular, I think there's that old bodybuilder analogy or thought process, that 80s mindset of just crushing the muscle to failure, it might be a good mental test of one's kind of intensity to their training but does it actually have any value. I think that's where science, this is where this research comes into play to, I guess make people more efficient with their training, and for our listeners really it's about giving them tips and tricks, whether it's in business or training or nutrition to make them more effective at getting results on themselves or with their clients.- Yeah and again, what you guys are teaching is exactly... Again, I spent way too many hours looking at that research. You're following the research. Now can I also say there may be... I think there is a time to go to absolute failure maybe once a month or maybe every other month, so that you have an idea how many reps can you get at this weight? That way you know for the next month or two where you should stop a rep or two shy of that.- I think that's also good for quiets, like mentally as well, let's just say that in month one they could only do a 100 kilos squat for two reps, in month two they're not able to do it for three or four reps. It's showing some form of progression towards a goal that can help keep them more compliant because I think that's that fine line, right? You've got to make sure that you're getting the most bang for buck effective use of their time, but then also are they actually going to continue to adhere it and especially this time of the year, it's like it's very easy to slip away and have a Christmas ham or Turkey then go and get your steps in or go for a workout, right?- Yes, yeah.- Bill, I just wanted to ask as well because we're on the topic of training and rep schemes and things like that in different methods. And it just came in front of my mind there. What are your thoughts on traditional drop sets versus a mechanical drop set?- So my philosophy on what I refer to them what you just described as advanced lifting strategies. So for most of the people, 95% of the population I don't think there's a need to do those things to optimize the hypertrophic stimulus.- Okay.- But as you get more advanced that is where those advanced lifting strategies may start to induce a potential benefit for those people. What I find is let's say somebody just started they've been lifting for a month and then they start wanting to try these things, and my mind says you know what, I don't think we're there yet. Just take each set close to failure and then once you've been doing this for a year or two we can do a personal experiment with drop sets, mechanical drop set.- So actually on that topic like lots of people have different ways of categorizing a beginner level trainee, intermediate level trainee, advanced level training. So I think because often with these things open up cans of worms the more you talk especially someone like yourself has got so much knowledge. How would you define beginner, intermediate and advanced trainees? Like is it a variable between training age, load lifted, strength parameters, strength norms, what is your way of characterizing if someone's a beginner, intermediate or advanced? Because from my experience when was coaching I use Lauren Simpson, she's WBFF Pro Bikini World Champion. So when I was coaching her within the first six months of her weightlifting career were actually probably the first 12 months of a weightlifting career she was already doing the loads that's clients that I'd worked with for a decade were doing at her body weight. So for example she had a two times body weight squat, 1.5 times body weight deadlift within a six to 12 month period. Again, how are you defining it?'Cause obviously there are outliers like that as well but like to coaches out there, to personal trainers out there, how do they know who is who?- Yeah and unfortunately in the research literature it's often based on time. Like typically they'll say if it's been one year or longer-- That's why I brought it up because I've found from experience our lab, our personal training gym's doing a hundreds of thousands of PT sessions and you'd have people that would come in for a year and all of a sudden it's like they're as strong as someone that's been lifting for five years. So if I was to use the same training stimulus on that client their progression results would be like this rather than like that. Yeah because irrespective as you know within the first three years of training, that's when you're going to get a lot bigger jumps in progression compared to the advanced lifter, where you're at, where I'm at, where Kim's at, it's a very micro increase on strength, on muscle mass, on these things.- So one thing though that I will circle back to what we were just talking about regardless if it's your first day or you're been in this for 30 years, regardless of your strength if you take each set to near failure you are optimizing that hypertrophic stimulus that never leaves. No matter how trained or how new that's something that's a staple. Every single set, every single workout you're set should go to that level. And that's, again, it's not easy it's an intense workout, but it doesn't have to be like just a killer workout either, again you're stopping one maybe two sets shy of where I don't think I can do a good set or a good repetition. And I don't know if we're going to talk about deloads but if you're just not feeling great that day, all right take it later you have four reps left in the tank, take a week of that. You're still getting a stimulus but you don't have to push it quite that far. You can almost use that system as a de-load system as well.- Right, right. Now, Bill, we're going to kind of shift direction here. We're going to talk about what you love which is bodybuilding and physique competitors and competitions. I think this is a very fitting given that we've just come off the back of the Olympia weekend as well. So the question is, when it comes to physique competitors some of your recent published data biolabs shows that effects of low versus high protein diets for females, so female aspiring physique athletes, can you outline some of the findings that you have found as to what is probably I guess more beneficial or reps better muscle gain for these competitors?- Yeah, so a lot of people we assume, and let's just say we know higher protein is a better type of diet for people who are lifting weights to increase muscle mass. But you'd be surprised how few studies there have been to actually test that, there hardly any studies. So my lab did the first study in a resistance trained female population. And as you said these were aspiring female physique athletes meaning that they most of them had either competed as a bikini competitor or figure competitor or were planning to within this next year. And what we did, we said to one group, we said you have to eat at least 2.4 grams per kg of protein every day, the other group we said you have to eat no more than 1.2 grams per kg. So we had this big difference in protein intake. Again, never been looked at in a resistance train female population. So what did we find? Well, the high protein group actually work was ingesting 2.5 grams per kg. The low group actually ingested 0.9 grams per kg. They lifted in my physique lab for eight weeks. We watched every rep. We watched every set, every workout. We also made them calculate every gram of carbs, protein and fat that went into their body all eight weeks, at the end of the eight week period, the high protein group gained about two kgs of muscle mass. The low protein group gained about a half a kilogram which is actually more than I would think given that little protein.- Yeah.- So that finding wasn't surprising, what was surprising is that the high protein group, and they actually increased their calories by nearly 300 calories per day they lost a kilogram of body fat.- What did you contribute that to?- Yeah.- So I'm going to attribute it to what all scientists attributed to, which is, we don't know but-(laughing)- I mean it's an interesting finding-- It is.- Yeah go.- It's actually not the... I wasn't the first lab to show this. There have been four other studies where they increased calories all in the form of protein in resistance trained people and they either didn't gain fat or they lost fat.- So are you relating it to TEA?- Yes, that's the only thing that makes sense. Well, the thermic effect of food and just a higher need. So a higher daily energy expenditure. So your body's having to use a lot of energy to break down that protein, those peptide bonds are hard to break in the chemical structure of amino acids and proteins. So you're having to induce energy to break them down. And the only thing we can attribute it to is yes, a higher thermic effect of food and a higher overall energy expenditure.- So what would you say your take home point for you was like in terms of how you might apply that again for our listeners, how could that maybe apply that information to their own coaching?- Yeah, I'm going to take that and I'm going to lead it into the next study. We're starting in about three weeks in my lab. So to me, the take home message is more protein is better than low protein for building muscle mass but we already knew that my lab just said,"Okay, here now we can publish it and make it known." Now, I also want to say at some point you can keep eating more and more protein. You're not gaining more muscle. So researchers tend to think that that threshold is about 1.6 grams per kg. So we were way above that threshold. But what I think is the interesting finding in that study was the loss of body fat with the increase in calories. I've always thought as most people do if you increase your calories you're going to gain fat. Did not happen in my data, in my study and again, I'm aware of about four other studies that showed the same thing, the two things that are always present is the increase in calories needs to come from protein alone. And there needs to be a resistance training stimulus. How can we translate that to the population? What we're doing now in my lab is asking the question, what if we have a new female client they are not resistance trained. So we're going to start them with resistance training. And instead of having them track their macros where we're teaching them,"Hey, this is a carb, this is a fat." Every day that's a pretty big ask of somebody who's new to fitness. What we're doing is we're saying let's just increase your protein intake. Don't focus on anything else just lift weights and if you eat two eggs for breakfast we want you to eat four, if you have fish twice a week we want you to have fish four times per week. So we're just doing a very simple, a more simple lifestyle change with increasing protein. And we also have another group where we are saying,"Hey, track your macros and really get at least"a 2.2 grams per kg of protein." And then of course we need a control group. So we have a third group in this study who were saying don't change anything about your diet, just lift in my lab and we want to compare you to the other groups. So the reason I like this study is it's going to answer this question in nonresistance trained females. And we're going to ask the question maybe you don't have to be so anal or so uptight about tracking every little macro nutrient. Maybe you can just simply increase your protein and not really give it much thought and maybe that will cause you to gain muscle and lose fat. So that's the question.- Interesting to see the findings based off, I guess the different populations that you've got in obviously doing it with a physique group who are a bit more intermediate to advanced level trainee, more competent with their technique, their execution of their exercise probably more diligent outside of the lab. I wouldn't say it's not surprising, but obviously were still able to get the fat loss. It'd be interesting to see what happens with the general population client that doesn't have the same amount of lean muscle tissue that doesn't maybe have the same RMR. It doesn't have the same level of compliance outside of the lab to see what type of results they get.- Yes, it's a much easier habit to master if you don't have to track everything so we'll see.- Yeah, yeah well, I guess on the topic of physique and whatnot, what are your thoughts on refeeds? Like it's something that some people like, yes, love it. Some people don't love it. One, do you want to explain the mechanism of refeeds, but then two, especially when you're dialing somebody into show and they're depleted, they maybe moody, they're kind of hanging out getting to that competition stage, how it might be something that you may or may not introduce as a strategy to replenish them coming into show or not.- Yeah, so we published a study on refeeds in March of this year, and it was the very first study in a resistance trained population. And we just finished another study on diet breaks in resistance train females. So let me explain the concept. The global concept is a term called nonlinear dieting. And basically what that means is you're not dieting every single day for week after week, month after month, this nonlinear dieting-- I'm in a diet break from now until post-Christmas. I've given myself five days off.- It's exactly what it should. And that would be a diet break. So diet break is typically one week sometimes two weeks of literally what it sounds like take a break from dieting don't diet for a week or two, a diet refeed has the same philosophy but it's usually a one or two day break from your diet rather than a week. So we call that a diet refeed. Now, as you ask questions about diet refeeds and diet breaks, the only way that they make sense is if you appreciate the negative consequences of dieting itself. So let me explain them in about 60 seconds. There is nothing good about dieting for gaining muscle. Everything about a diet works against you from gaining muscle. And let me give you a few examples. This is all research-based.- Kim's just been dieting for it. You did a photo shoot two days ago, didn't you?- I did. I was just thinking even you talking about refeeds I was thinking I'm going to tell my coach this because I probably (indistinct) what you're saying Bill.- Kim has done a great photo shoot. So I think this is perfectly time for her.- I'm grinning from ear to ear just listening.- Well, depending on how severe your diet was or if somebody goes on a crash diet or they're dieting more severely the negative consequences that I'm about to say become much worse. So I live my life, I'm always experimenting on myself. I'm always doing some type of diet or trying to gain weight. All of my research revolves around dieting but I never forget. You don't want to spend much of your life dieting. It's not your friend. We want to learn how to live within a maintainable lifestyle. But anyway, when you go on a diet, when you reduce your calories such that you're losing weight, your muscle protein synthesis goes down by about 20% from a 20% caloric deficit. Also muscle protein breakdown that increases significantly. Again, about 20% of hormonally growth hormone gets converted to a very anabolic hormone called insulin like growth factor one, when you're on a diet, that conversion is blocked. So you don't have this anabolic status in your body. Your metabolic rate tends to go down as you go on a diet as you lose weight your metabolic rate goes down and not to mention you're hungrier usually a little bit more grouchy. So we have a lot of these and you lose muscle mass when you go on a diet typically.- Yeah.- So everything we just mentioned is a negative consequence of dieting. Now, my lab does focus on ways to prevent that and we can get into that later, but that's where the value of a diet refeed or a diet break comes in, if you-- Before you get into that one question I'd ask which I think would be beneficial. You're talking about NPS dropping by 20% and MPB going up by 20%, et cetera, like from a deficit perspective what are the norms for fat loss you're recommending to coaches to do if they're taking someone into a deficit, how far of a deficit should they be going?- Yes, so I'm going to answer that with a three-fold philosophy that I've learned in my own research. The caloric deficit that we think is the most aggressive approach for fat loss and maintaining muscle is about a 25% caloric deficit. So if you know your maintenance calories reduce that by 25% but you have to also not reduce protein when you're doing that, make sure protein stays high. So at least 1.6 grams per kg, I would suggest the higher the better, even up to 2.2 grams per kg. And then the third principle with this is resistance training, everything about a caloric deficit is catabolic, it makes you lose fat, that's good, but it also makes you lose muscle. So we want to introduce as many anabolic stimulus to the body during a diet that we can and resistance exercise is one of those anabolic stimuli as is high protein.- And we've generally from a fat loss in our gyms, we might initially say... I think it also depends on how much a deficit there are in the beginning, right?'Cause if someone's coming to crash dieting on a 1000 calories a day, if you jack them up to say only a 20% deficit from that 1000 you might be jacking them up too fast, too soon. For example for us traditionally like we've kind of stayed around that 20% deficit area for fat loss yes you can go down as you mentioned, but around 20% keep it safe and keep it in a way where basically mentally the client is not fried. They don't feel as though they're starving in relation to where they're at, but then also psychologically they're not going crazy from it all, but then physiologically they're still getting the benefits from it.- Yeah I love 20%. I can even live with 50. I mean, I will never argue with anybody who takes a slower approach to fat loss. You will never hear me argue with that. When I say 25% that's what I've found allows you, that's the upper limit. When you start going above that that's when you're going to start using-- What about going like if you've got somebody that is kind of in a healthy state and then you do it a two weeks where you got to between 30, 35.- Well, funny you ask that because we just did a study on that. We literally did a rapid fat loss study two weeks where we had them do a 37 and a half percent caloric deficit. And in that study, and this was in males and females. Now, we haven't published this data yet so I can't share all of the data, but I can share some of it that we presented at a conference. They lost muscle mass and these were all resistance trained people. They kept protein high, at least 2.0 while we them to go 2.2 grams per kg. So even when they're doing everything right if you go too aggressively, you're going to lose muscle mass.- So they get more of a weight loss rather than a body re-composition style or fat loss environment.- Yes, yep. So again, in the future, my lab we want to start looking at what's the human potential for losing as much fat off of the body as possible while maintaining muscle and metabolic rate? And I want to again, we're going to throw supplements and people with cardio, different types of cardio, resistance training that's a question I want to answer.- Hearing all this I mean it gets me super excited. I think like this is we spoke about it before, when we were offline, you and I, I know that you're releasing a research review next year. I think this is the type of stuff that's really going to help fitness professionals around the world getting the latest data and research in this area so that they can make scientific decisions with their clients to impact health and their physique.- Yes and the thing I get paid to do all this I live a very blessed life.(laughing)- Definitely, I guess, in terms of like we'll go into another actual topic. Cause I know that you're pressed for time. What are your thoughts on sleep and recovery in relation to losing fat building muscle how much importance does it play? What's kind of the benchmark that you feel people should be going for? Some people would say five or six hours enough. Some people like seven, eight hours is where you need to be. Like what are your thoughts on this topic when it comes to optimizing client's health and then obviously their results?- Yeah and I want to be honest, I have not mastered this literature base yet, so I have opinion but my opinions are based more on conversations with people who do this research and who are experts. So now I do hope to do my own research on this but basically from what I've been able to learn from other people and in just my own clients when I used to have clients, it seems like at least six hours per night is a minimal amount. And again, this is for most people of course there are exceptions. It seemed that eight hours was better than six and seven hours wasn't better than seven or eight. So if I were to suggest based on what I've learned seven hours is probably an ideal sweet spot for a nightly sleep.- Yeah, okay.- And Bill, just in terms of all the exciting projects you have coming up what are some sort of future research areas that you're exploring?- So I mentioned that the very first study that we're doing in this protein tracking or what we call like intuitive protein eating so we have that study coming up. We're going to do a study it looks like on berberine's supplementation. So I don't know if you're familiar with glucose disposal agents?- Yeah.- Yeah.- So we're going to look at and it seems like berberine or glucose disposal agents in general they seem to be effective in obese people. But what about people like us who are already healthy who are already resistance training, we're already creating a glucose disposal agent in our muscles. So I don't know if the supplements are going to be more effective if there'll be beneficial for people who are resistance training. So we're going to look at that. I'm also looking-- I'd be interested to hear the research on that. Berberine's actually something ironically enough I used to use as a glucose disposing agent with clients that were obese or overweight in the initial stage of their program.- And what did you find? Did you find that was helpful?- Yeah, I did, but from experience coming back to your second point like clients that we used to train in our studios that used it, that were kind of just to say sub 20% body fat, not as much but those that were over 20%, especially 25 to 35% body fat seem to have faster fat loss than those that didn't do it. Again, this is just from our real world laboratory. So yeah, for me, just ironically super interested to hear that-- Even myself I've actually cycled it for four weeks at a time in my recent cut, just because I've got a PCO, so polycystic ovaries. So for me, just to ensure that I'm more insulin sensitive, my coach said to me take berberine and just cycle through it. So four weeks on four weeks off, something like that. And I actually found it was quite quite helpful for me, myself and I would say I'm in that threshold of the lean population not exactly typical probably I guess people that you would probably studying it with but I actually found it was quite helpful.- Good, good. And then one other thing that I think is on the horizon this would be next year is doing a rapid fat loss study with a diet refeed or a diet break. So kind of, again we're going to induce a situation where what I don't believe is a great situation'cause we're going to cut the calories severely but can we protect some of the damage with a refeed? So that's something else we'll be doing hopefully next year.- Okay, let's talk about 2021. I mean, I know from our chat you've got a lot of like big things coming up, a lot of stuff that you're doing out there in the industry, you care to share any of the exciting projects or things that you're working on in 2021.- Yeah, so I've been working basically for the last, almost year on a project with Clean Health Fitness Institute in Lane Norton we're developing a physique coaching diploma. So this is kind of like my life's work and my life's research, that's going to be packaged into just a great educational product. There's nothing else like this on the planet currently where all of the research, all of the education is focused on fat loss and muscle gain. So that's something that again I get up every day and I'm just-- And I think for the listeners the way obviously I've known about this but the way that it's coming out is that students that complete this in Australia and then long-term North America will actually be able to come out of that as accredited physique coaches, which I think, again it's another industry first, especially in the realm of of comp prep and physique coaching it's been sorely needed for a long, long time. So I'm super excited to see how this comes out with what you and Layne are doing knowing how detail oriented both of you guys are I'm so behind it because I think it's something that a personal trainer that gets qualified and it like,"Okay, I want to learn about physique coaching"or something like that." They're going to be able to go and do this diploma and really just get such an in-depth level of expertise on this topic that they going to be able to go out there and safely and effectively start prepping clients to get up on stage or to do photo shoots or whatever that might be.- Yeah and obviously partnering with Layne, who's just an icon in the industry is a great blessing as well. So it's taught me a lot of what I've learned and like I said, I look at this as literally like a life's accomplishment when this is-- And tell us about the research review'cause I know obviously you and I have briefly spoken about that. That's another side project that you're working on.- Yeah, so I think this is maybe the first time I've made this public pretty sure. But yeah, it's something that I've been wanting to do for a long time, for many years due to my own professional situation I've decided that this is the year to make it happen. So it's essentially going to be a research review that's 100% dedicated to optimizing one's physique and it's going to have a strong application perspective. So we're not just going to summarize the research it's not just that but it's also finding the best evidence-based coaches, the best dieticians, the best researchers, the best coaches all of these best practitioners telling us,"Okay here's how I would apply this to my clients,"here's where I wouldn't utilize this strategy." So there is some research and there is some application and again I'm kind of the guy who's summarizing the research and I'm getting the best coaches, the best people to apply it to your life.- That's amazing.- Yeah, yeah and I think the benefit to that again, is having a resource tool like that from what I understand it will be a subscription based service where you pay money, et cetera. But that's going to give fitness professionals that are wanting to specialize in that area or really anything when it comes to body composition from what you're saying whether it's fat loss or hypertrophy it's going to give them a reference point that they can go to to basically you have all of the research kind of analyzed for them and then translate it in a way that they can apply the next day. And I think that's the future of where the industry is going. It's blending kind of the science, it's blending all of that with how can we actually apply that on the ground with our clients to help them achieve better outcomes.- Absolutely yes. And another thing I'm liking about it is I might have two experts that are going to have different applications and that's fine because a lot of this there is no clear answer to how we do things sometimes there is. So I think it kind of lets people know there's not always one right way to apply research. There's truth but we can implement this based on the particular client and their goals and situation.- And I think that's one of the things that I like just in the discussions we've had and with your philosophy is sometimes people get so dogmatic with things, right? It's like, it must be this way. And it's like as you said you might have 10 different experts that deal with 10 different demographics and 10 different niches. And that piece of knowledge they're going to apply in 10 different ways they might not all marry up, but at the end day you can't argue with the output, which is clients getting into better shape and getting healthier.- Yeah, absolutely.- Well, Bill we'll let you go. Those are all the questions we had for you today. Thank you so much for being our first guest on the Industry Leaders podcast. We really appreciate all your insight and all your expertise on the topic which was Blending the Latest Science to Real-World Results. So thank you very much again.- Yes, thank you for having me and thank Clean Health Fitness Institute for bringing me on board with some of these projects.- It's a pleasure mate and it won't be the last time we could get you on this show. Honestly a lot of this stuff that you covered today I think is going to really help personal trainers, help nutritionist kind of cut through some of the crap. Obviously guys for more information on Bill you can follow him on his Instagram account, it's at Bill Campbell PhD. I believe off the top of my head. So follow Bill there obviously to stay up to date with everything that he's doing. I view kind of latest posts every other day, so yeah thanks Bill.- Thank you.- All right, so look that was a lot of information jam packed into 50 or 55 impactful minutes there, Kim as I'm sure you can attest to but I think one thing I've always liked to do when it comes to education is to do a bit of a recap. And it's something that I learned many years ago from one of my initial industry mentors, Charles Poliquin, which was one of the top three things that you just learn. So number one for me was obviously just learning about some of the stuff that he's got coming up in 2021. And also a lot of the research that he's currently got in place. I mean, I think the research journal that is coming out is going to be a really invaluable resource tool for fitness professionals that they can dive into at any time to kind of take that science and blend it into the real world. Obviously the diploma physique coaching I'm well aware 'cause we've been building that in the background. We're announcing pre interest list on that in website, that's going up. So those are some of the things that I took away from it. What about you?- I would say just because myself because I am still in the trenches, I'm so coaching people hands-on the key points that he mentioned related to that so for example, number one, the fact that in terms of a, cutting or diet for anyone should start at about 20 to 25% of a deficit is a place to be. I thought that was really interesting and that any more than that it's almost more detrimental than it is beneficial depending on how long and depending on the person and regardless you're going to be losing muscle mass, which for most people you're wanting to retain so that was one thing. Another thing I would say is that in summary basically that higher protein diets trap lower protein diets for anyone and his specific example it was with aspiring female physique athletes. But he did say that this does apply to any sort of population, whether it's male or female.- Yeah, although, like I said that's a very brief overview at all, but obviously guys I think Kim and I are going to wrap it up. Obviously, if you've got any questions that you want or any presenters professionals within industry that you want us to interview please email us at or follow the link in the bio. Obviously Kim and myself are reviewing the questions that come in every week, reviewing the show guests that you're recommending. And then obviously from there we'll be able to get into them on a week to week basis with the objective of helping you guys become masters of your craft.- That's right. Very exciting stuff, can't wait.- All right, I'm going to let you go, Kim. I'm going to let our viewers go until then.(upbeat music)