Inspire Someone Today
Inspire Someone Today
E131| Go Beyond | Vanessa D'Souza
Vanessa D'Souza's journey from a high-flying career in banking to leading SNEHA is nothing short of inspirational. Imagine working in the corporate world, only to have your perspective shifted by a stark encounter with urban malnutrition just a stone's throw from your office. Vanessa's story is a powerful reminder of how personal experiences can redefine our paths and drive us toward impactful social change. She shares how her independent upbringing in Mumbai cultivated a deep sense of responsibility, which later fueled her passion for empowering communities and championing sustainable change.
Our conversation with Vanessa taps into the heart of community empowerment, especially those facing challenges like domestic violence and malnutrition. We explore how the right tools and resources can transform individuals into catalysts of change within their communities, fostering resilience and self-sufficiency even after NGOs have moved on. Vanessa shares stories of how community role models, including sensitive men, play a pivotal role in this transformation, advocating for a collaborative approach that listens and adapts to the needs of those they aim to uplift.
This episode also dives deep into the nuances of leadership and innovation in the social sector. We reflect on the invaluable lessons Vanessa learned transitioning from corporate to community-focused work, emphasizing the importance of empathy, adaptability, and humility. From managing risks to experimenting with new strategies like a WhatsApp chatbot for democratizing knowledge, Vanessa offers insights into leading with a community-first mindset. Her reflections on setting boundaries and learning from setbacks provide a compelling narrative for anyone looking to make a meaningful impact, reminding us that true leadership is about listening and learning from every experience and interaction.
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And I still remember they have this presentation that they made to me and they said OK, now we're going to take you into the field and we're going to take you to a daycare center. Now, being naive, I thought, you know, a daycare center would have these kids bouncing, bubbling like a little nursery would have. And they took me from Santa Cruz to Dharavi to this daycare center where, at that time, sneha was running the largest urban malnutrition program in the country. It had just started the program. What I saw there really shook me, because there were about 18 to 20 kids who were extremely weak, listless. There was a two-year-old who could barely hold her head up, and I think that really disturbed me because I realized that I had spent my entire life in Mumbai. I worked maybe three to five kilometers away from Dharavi in BKC, but there was a whole reality over here that I didn't know about. When you demonstrate impact, that is how you build trust in a community.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Inspire Someone Today podcast, a show where we dive into the stories and insights that has the power to create ripples of inspiration in your life. I'm your host, shrikant, and I'm thrilled to be with you on this journey of inspiration. Hey, we are back. Welcome back, my dear listeners, for yet another episode of Inspire Someone today. Joining us today is Varisa D'Souza. After having a successful stint in the corporate world, she decided to move on to the social sector and joining us as CEO of SNEHA, a wonderfully crafted acronym for Society for Nutrition, education and Health Action. It's an absolute joy and pleasure to have Vanisa joining us for this episode of Inspire Someone today. Welcome to the show, vanisa.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Shrihan, for having me on the show.
Speaker 2:Great. So you were somebody who was championing on the corporate world for a little over two decades.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:More precisely in the banking sector, and the crossover happened to the social sector Right Even before we get to that point, Varisa, tell us where did you grow up and did it affect you to what you have become today? What was the trigger for you to do what you have been doing today?
Speaker 1:So actually I grew up in a way, I think, in a very unreal world. My dad used to work for ESO, the erstwhile ESO, now, of course, hindustan Petroleum, and he was there before the nationalization. So we lived in this really lovely, very green, leafy place in Trombe, which is where all the refineries are of Mumbai, and literally in the morning we would have jackals coming and, you know, we would have lots of nature birds. You know, it was actually a very idyllic surrounding that I grew up in and I came in from a family of we're actually four girls. I'm the youngest of the four girls.
Speaker 1:So in a way, I think we grew up to be very independent and I had a working mother, you know, which was quite rare at that time. So we grew up, I think, very independent. I still remember at the age of 11, I had the keys to the house and I would let myself in. There was nobody at home and, you know, get my lunch organized and so on and so forth. And I actually think that was really a good thing, because we were forced to grow up, I think, a little faster than other kids who were pampered. And the second is, you know, we were also given a sense of responsibility, but no one ever hounded us. So you know, I never had my mother taking up my homework or, you know, before an exam, taking up anything it was. We were left told you know, you have to be responsible, you have to do. You know, you have to study, you have to have a career, etc. And I have to thank my father for that because, you know, in those days a lot of people felt that, you know, girls are going to get married in any case, right, so why make them bother to study? But I think, you know, he was quite focused about us being able to stand up on our own feet when we were adults and I think that influenced me to a great extent. It made me quite self-made and independent and also instilled, I think, a lot of confidence in my own abilities and I think that, you know, has certainly helped me in life.
Speaker 1:Having said that, shrikant, I think with respect to the move to the social sector, I don't think there was any specific influence. Both my parents worked for corporates, so I was never exposed really to the social sector. I think the only thing that I recall is every year at Christmas time, on Christmas Day actually, you know we used to bring two blind kids home to spend the day with us, right, so they would come and they would be picked up, and it was organized by some blind school to give these blind children, you know, an outing. Of course in those days, you know, kids were allowed to go without any fears that we would have today. But it was actually quite, and I still remember that so clearly, because they had such a different reality to all of us and I think that kind of sensitized us in a way to what was happening around us.
Speaker 2:But otherwise I don't think there was, you know, any major influence of social work or you know societal contribution other than that in the way I grew up, so, in some ways, those seeds were sown, not necessarily saying that this is what it will transpire to, but the seeds were sown and then, after having such a long stint in the corporate world, like I said, you moved into the social sector. Kelly Walkers how this was a defining moment or a redefining moment for you. What was easy, what was difficult? What has changed from your own perspective, having worked for 20 odd years moving to this sector? What did you kind of work? What was your inhibitions or the lack of it?
Speaker 1:So actually there was no plan and I never, ever thought that I would move to the sector. It was a trigger. It was an event that triggered the move. I was on a flight from Mumbai to the US. It was a 17-hour flight and I collapsed on the flight. I had no pulse and, fortunately for me, my husband's a doctor and he was next to me and they gave me oxygen. And fortunately for me, my husband's a doctor and you know he was next to me and you know they would give me oxygen and they revived me.
Speaker 1:And I think for me, in many ways, it was a huge wake up call because my children were quite young at that time and I thought you know what am I doing? I'm working myself to the point where I'm going to kill myself. And you know what happens to my family you know my husband, my children. They'd be left suddenly without anyone. And I think that because I went on a holiday after this incident, it also gave me time to reflect. You know when you, when your mind is busy, you have no time to reflect. That's when I made the decision that I needed to get off this treadmill. I needed to slow down, I needed to, you know, do something different that I could then physically and mentally cope with. So I came back. But I took a whole year, shrikant, to make the decision to leave because, you know, I wanted to settle my life. I wanted to make sure that I was comfortable before I left. And then I left, not knowing what I wanted to do.
Speaker 1:And one day the founder of Sneha called me and said you know, we've just finished a board meeting and we've been struggling to raise funds and some of the board members recommended your name, so would you like to come and help us to raise funds? Now, I had no idea. To me, an NGO was still, you know, somebody going distributing food, you know with a jhola and a kurta and so on and so forth. Right, and I decided, I said, ok, fine, I'll come in and I'll see what you're doing. And I still remember they have this presentation that they made to me and they said okay, now we're going to take you into the field and we're going to take you to a daycare center. Now, being naive, I thought, you know, a daycare center would have these kids bouncing, bubbling, like a little nursery would have. And they took me from Santa Cruz to Dharavi to this daycare center where, at that time, sneha was running the largest urban malnutrition program in the country. It had just started the program.
Speaker 1:What I saw there really shook me, because there were about 18 to 20 kids who were extremely weak, listless. There was a two-year-old who could barely hold her head up and I think that really disturbed me, because I realized that I had spent my entire life in Mumbai. I worked maybe three to five kilometers away from Dharavi in BKC, but there was a whole reality over here that I didn't know about and I actually felt a very deep sense of guilt and remorse, saying you know how could I have been so insensitive to what was happening around me? And so I decided I said, fine, let me now volunteer.
Speaker 1:So for two years I helped to fundraise at Sneha. I would go in, you know, spend time, go into the field, attend review meetings, because if you have to sell a product, you have to know what the product is about, right? So I spent some time, but at the end of one year the founder actually told me. She said you know, our CEO wants to leave and would you be interested in taking up the role? And I was completely unprepared for it, shrikant, because you know it's one thing to volunteer, it's another, completely different kettle of fish if you have to lead an organization.
Speaker 1:And you're still the corporate at this point of time. No, I had left, but you know, I was not a social worker, I wasn't a public health specialist, I wasn't a doctor. No-transcript. I can't even give you three months. You have to decide this weekend. It was a Friday evening. You have to decide this weekend because the donor that is funding that malnutrition program that I went to said that if you don't have a full-time CEO, we're not going to continue funding, and that really disturbed me and got me to agree to actually volunteer with Sneha. Having said that, I think you know, having spent time volunteering, having spent a few weeks in the organization, I did have some sense of what was happening. So I said, all right, I'll continue. And I, you know, I thought maybe two years, three years, I'll work, and then I move on. It's now 12 years, shrikant, that I'm still very much in and on. It's now 12 years, shrikant, that I'm still very much in and in fact now you know, when somebody says that you're from the corporate sector, I think really I seem more like I'm from the social sector. So it just seems like a previous lifetime that I was in the corporate sector. You know answer your question about what the shift has been like. I think the shift has been absolutely phenomenal Because in many ways, I think you know you don't live in a bubble, you live in a real world and you are constantly reminded about how grateful one should be.
Speaker 1:Because I think the one thing that struck me when I saw those young children was what have those kids done to be in a situation like that? They've not done anything to deserve that. So if any of us have good fortune or being able to grow up being born in certain families, we just have to be grateful for it. So I think it brings in a lot of gratitude. It brings in a lot more sensitivity to people who come from very different backgrounds. And let me tell you, even people that work in the social sector, many of them come from very challenging backgrounds. You know they come in with lots of challenges and they come to the social sector to find that kind of purpose in life. And I think if you, if you're sensitive to understand that people have different realities and you know they come in with a whole lot of baggage, it becomes much easier then for you to understand what the person, you know where the person is coming from, why they're reacting the way they're reacting. So I think, overall, people often say you know it's so good that you're giving back. I always say I'm not giving, I'm actually receiving, because you know the amount that I have learned and grown as a person. I don't think that would have been possible if I continued in the corporate. There's a whole new world that has opened up and I think that's been really nice.
Speaker 1:The second thing I think is you know, whenever you have to work in low resource setting, you just learn to do so many more things Because you know, when you work in a corporate, there are so many specializations, but when you're in an NGO, you have to do everything right. You have to do marketing, you have to do finance, you have to do programs, you have to do tech. So there's constant learning and I actually enjoy in fact I thrive when I have to learn. So I think that's been another great experience for me. So is that a hallmark of all CEOs, that learning becomes the cornerstone of everything that they do? I think so.
Speaker 1:I really think so, and I think in the social sector it's probably more because you don't have access to specialized resources access to specialized resources. So, for example, if you want, say, to do something in technology, the first inclination is to go and find a tech company that can do some pro bono services with you and you try and actually do a patchwork. And in fact one of our tech advisors says NGOs are famous for doing jugaad when it comes to technology, because you have to manage in the limited resources you have and I think it does force you to learn a lot more, not just delegate things to other people. And ultimately, I think you know you don't have shareholders. You have a board that you're responsible to, but, more importantly, I think you're responsible to a community and you know, if you're conscious of the fact that you're there, you're actually serving thousands of people who don't have the kind of agency and the knowledge that, like a shareholder, has.
Speaker 2:I actually think you are more responsible because you know that now you to be much more sensitive, to be much more mindful of the decisions you're taking, the stronger the impact it would look like and how hard it is for you to kind of one mobilize somebody to kind of do what you are doing, to also develop that element of trust and credibility. Ultimately it boils down to those elements, right? Nobody wants to fund something if they see there's no trust, there's lack of trust, there's lack of credibility. So one is that element of it. Two is to motivate the people wanting to work in these sectors who can be those trusted leaders who can build the community. So, as a CEO, what are your challenges and how are you dealing with that?
Speaker 1:So you know more than impact. I think one thing that I am very mindful of is the fact that there is so much potential in the community and as an NGO, I think one of the biggest advantages we have is actually giving people wings to fly. So when we talk about community engagement and impact, I absolutely think it's essential, because an NGO or a government can only do that much. Ultimately, each of us has to be accountable for our own selves, whether it's education, whether it's health. You have to make that effort. Now, the problem that we see is that the members of these communities don't have knowledge, they don't have agency, they're unable to take action, and what our role really is is to give them the tools. So the tools could be the information, it could be the training, it could be the information, it could be the training, it could be the empowerment to actually take that action. So, for example, we work on a very difficult topic, which is domestic violence, and we know that patriarchy and gender come down from generations, millennia actually. So how do you then get a woman to stand up against somebody who's a husband or an in-laws, et. Etc. Where she's facing physical or emotional violence? So the process that we follow in any community is first of all, we have to demonstrate the value we're adding to the community. So you have to go in there. The Sneha frontline workers have to go in there and they have to actually counsel survivors of violence have to go in there and they have to actually counsel survivors of violence. They have to get them out of a violent situation or they have to work with a mother and a malnourished child to bring a child out of malnutrition. When you demonstrate impact, that is how you build trust in a community. They know then that you are somebody. You don't have a vested interest, you're there really for the good of the community. And when you have experienced something positive for the good of the community, and when you have experienced something positive, there is a tendency for you to want to help, to provide that same experience to somebody else. So a woman who was experiencing violence, if she's been supported, counseled and her family situation has improved, she feels responsible to go and help another woman that is experiencing violence. And she has the lived experience. So she knows what the woman is going through. She knows the challenges that she has to face to get out of that situation. So as we work with more and more community people and we create impact, we build trust. We also then build this community of people who then want to do something for themselves, for their neighboring community, and that really is the only way to bring about sustained change.
Speaker 1:You know, one of the issues that most NGOs grapple with is how do we then sustain this change we've made? You know, I may bring down malnutrition, I may reduce domestic violence in a community, but I cannot be in that community forever because there is too much work to do. I need to go to another community. That community forever. Because there is too much work to do, I need to go to another community. So the only way to do it is to enable the people in the community to address their own issues. And you'd be surprised, shrikant, once you teach them how to address, let's say, domestic violence or how to go to a public health facility and access services, next you'll find they're demanding. You know, not demanding, but they are negotiating water, sanitation issues. They're negotiating admission for their children in school because somewhere deep down, they have now believed in themselves and their abilities and they are then empowered to take action.
Speaker 1:And that's what we really want to do, because you know, they live in very complex worlds. I may be working only on health or gender-based violence, but there are so many other issues they have to deal with. They have to deal with a corrupt ration officer. They're going to deal with challenges of school education. So how do you help them to build that kind of confidence and agency that, no matter what problem they have, they have the innate ability to first of all come together as a community and to solve in a very collaborative manner?
Speaker 1:And I think that's really what we aspire to do, because we feel that if we can build this strong community of women, men, adolescents, then we can actually empower a community to take whatever action they need to take to improve their own lives. And you know, we're often asked when you work on domestic violence, how do you work with the men? In any population, you will always have men who are also sensitive to women's needs, who also do not perpetrate or inflict violence on their wives. So you have to pull out these role models and you have to use them to actually bring about change in a community. And I think that's what we try and do. We bring out both the people who are working well in a community, the people who are struggling in the community, and we make role models of the people who are working well and we get them to help other people. So ultimately, it's a community coming together and for and through a very symbiotic way, helping each other and you did mention about.
Speaker 2:it's just not one challenge that you're going to solve. So there's a multitude of challenges that is out there and, again, you will not be able to address every bit of it. So how? Do you help these individuals to prioritize that and how do you help the community to scale? Because, beyond certain point, you want the community to scale, be self-sufficient and also manage a lot of these things that come their way. So help us understand the prioritization challenge as well as the community expansion challenge.
Speaker 1:So the prioritizing is always done by them. They know their own reality, they know what is important to them. You know, for example, we work with pregnant women and we always encourage the woman. You know, get your husband to accompany you for an antenatal checkup. And we found that many of the men were not doing it. So we actually did a small qualitative study to understand why men were not doing it. And the men said you know, we're all daily wage earners. When we know our wife is pregnant, for us, every day of earning means we're contributing to the life of that, to the future of that child. Now, that's a reality, shrikant.
Speaker 1:You and I don't understand because we are not daily wage earners. So when we have to think of a community, I don't think it is our decision, it is their decision, it is their reality. But what we have to do is we have to facilitate them, to help them make those decisions. So, for example, if you know they have a hundred things to work on, typically we see in communities there are two priorities for them. The first is livelihood, because you know there's poverty in these areas. You know for them it's each day is. You know these are daily wage earners. So definitely livelihood is the first priority and the second priority for them is education of their children, because they feel that's the ticket out of poverty.
Speaker 1:Now, aspects that we work on, like health, are completely low priority for them. In fact, they're often low priority for many of us, right? Only when we fall sick we think of our health. So for us to make them understand that if you want your child to reach school, your child has to be well nourished, actually from the day of conception. And how do you make sure that you know, right through your pregnancy period, you keep healthy so that you deliver a healthy baby and then, right till the child reaches school, the child remains healthy and out of malnutrition, so that when that child gets to school, the child can reach full potential?
Speaker 1:We also constantly try and tell them in a very simplistic way that you know certain forms of malnutrition, like slumping, impairs cognitive development of the child and it is irreversible after the age of two years. So if you want your child to reach school and to do well in school, the first few years, the first five years, are so critical for the growth and development of the child. And this is the way we make health a priority in their lives, because otherwise, you know, in their day-to-day lives it really is not such. So I think it's all about educating, informing them about each of these issues, but ultimately decisions have to be taken by them, because only they understand their reality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and for a lot of our corporate listeners who is hearing to this conversation, this burning want of wanting to do something, wanting to give back, wanting to find purpose. And some are in that dilemma of how do I make that switch? I want to have my day job but at the same time I'm equally caring about the community. What would be a word of advice for folks like that, who are on tenterhooks, who want to do something but don't know how to go about doing it, and more so if they want to get associated with sneha? How can one go about doing that?
Speaker 1:so I think, first of all, it's very important to find what area you are passionate about, because you have to be driven for to do something. So different people are passionate about different things. Someone, in fact I never, ever thought I would work in health. She can't. I always would have imagined I would have worked in education. But today, if you ask me if I didn't work in health, where would I work? Maybe I would want to work in climate. So there are many things that you know that people have to see, and the only way to find out what you're passionate about is to visit many NGOs, see what's happening on the ground. You know, understand the realities of the people, understand interventions. Then you begin to relate to certain causes. So I would say the first thing is go and visit as many NGOs as you can. You find the aspect that you feel strongly about because, trust me, even till today, after 12 years at Sneha, there are many times I go into the field to once again connect with why I am with Sneha, simply because you know it can. You can get distracted. You know that it, for all practical purposes, it sometimes seems like another corporate job. So finding that passion is the first thing and that the best way to do it is to get into the field. The second thing is everybody has a talent. You can provide your talent in many ways and I'll give you examples of so many different ways that people have helped us. People have come in and said you know, we are from the financial services sector, what can we do to help you? So we do financial literacy, we do somebody from an IT sector, we do computer literacy. Someone else says you know, I'm very artistic, so you know you can do photography, you can run an art session for people who are stressed and have anxiety and stress and be working with survivors of violence. So you know, you give them a little bit of time to distract them, to relax them. So there are multiple ways. Now, if you're willing to give more time and expertise, you can help with higher level things. So we've had people come in and help us with protocols, help us with documentation, with research, with setting up technology, with creating apps. So those are more in longer term engagements. But you know, it really depends on how much time you want to give, how passionate you feel about the topic and then how much you want to contribute.
Speaker 1:The only thing I would urge people is, when you come in and you commit to doing something, I would urge them to complete what they're doing, because we do sometimes see corporates coming in. They start, you know, very enthusiastically and then you'll never see them again. And that is actually a lot of waste of time for NGO staff because you know you take time out to explain things to them and then they come once or twice and then disappear and you finally don't have a deliverable, so that I would say avoid. So we have, for example, lots of events in the community. We'll have 16 days of activism against domestic violence at the end of November, early December, and we have lots of people coming in joining campaigns, creating posters, writing poems, songs, doing little street plays, and these are all volunteers that are doing it right. So they work alongside our teams and they actually bring in a lot of creativity and a lot of energy to a lot of these events.
Speaker 1:So I think there are multiple ways you can engage. It could be for a day, it could be for a shorter period of time or it could be higher level activities that you commit to for a longer time. But I would urge people to do whatever they can in whatever way. You know it could be in your home, it could be outside, it could be, you know, with your vendor. And it's sometimes as simple as Shrikant is saying I'm going to buy vegetables, let me not bargain with his vegetable vendor, because for me 20 rupees is nothing but for him it is a huge amount and for me even that is actually helping somebody. So there are so many ways that, um, you know we can help and I think we should just look at you know doing whatever we can.
Speaker 2:you know convenient is convenient for each person and that's a huge tip that you shared that 20 rupees means nothing for many of us, but it means a world for those daily wage earners.
Speaker 1:That's right that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2:And if we were to ask you a transformational story that has happened in your association with Sneha, if you were to kind of share one or two anecdotes of how these interventions has transformed lives, has transformed individuals, what would that be?
Speaker 1:I want to share with you a very specific incident that I think has left quite a tremendous mark on me. This was a program, again, on child malnutrition. I was going into the field and my team said you know, we're taking into this home of the severely malnourished child that we've been working with for some time. And I still remember we went into this home. It was not more than 10 feet by 10 feet, there was absolutely no ventilation, no window, there was just one door and on the ground was lying this child with a huge scar, you know, right from the top of the chest right up to the lower part of the chest. So the child had a hole in the heart and that was actually so. The child needed, you know, surgery and our team helped them find doctors, subsidized surgery etc. And the child survived. And the child was, you know, surgery and our team helped them find doctors, subsidized surgery etc. And the child survived. And the child was, you know, the child was in the recovery phase but doing well. And I remember we went to the house and the father was so grateful and he suddenly disappeared from the house and the next thing I know he's come back with this huge bottle of Pepsi, come back with this huge bottle of Pepsi. And you know, shrikant, I felt so bad because I thought, you know he has now spent his life savings to save this child. But even then, the generosity that you see in those communities is just unbelievable. You know, here we struggle sometimes to get funding out of people who are so wealthy, but here this poor man, because the team had helped him, this was his way of repaying. And I think those stories really reinforce your belief in humanity. And if I say you know, I tell you that you know, it's great, I've learned so much. These are the incidents that you know, you learn from.
Speaker 1:There's another story that you know we work with survivors of violence and I remember this woman saying that she was at a point where she came to us completely. She actually had fractures, she had a lot of physical violence on earth, and it took about a year of counseling with her, with her husband, the family, etc. For her finally to be reunited and live happily. And what she started doing then was she decided that she needed to be financially independent and she started working. But more importantly, she made sure that her daughters were financially independent and she made sure that her son was also sensitized, so that the son didn't inflict violence, you know, on his wife. And I just thought you know I said here is a woman who has gone against all odds. She's had the courage to come take counseling services, but then she's not stopped at herself, she's also worried about the rest of her family. And then what she does is she then becomes a volunteer so that she can start helping other women in the community.
Speaker 1:So you know just one incident. Then I asked her, I said why are you doing this? And she said you know, just like someone came to help me, I feel it is my responsibility to go and help somebody else. And I thought you know, in our lives there are so many people that help us. None of us have reached where we've reached unless somebody, unless a whole lot of people had helped us right.
Speaker 1:But do we think constantly of how we can keep on being that forward to other people? We don't necessarily do it right, so we take a lot of it for granted, thinking that you know, we're entitled, we're born here and this is, you know, where we are. So I think some of these stories really are extremely impactful because it makes you feel that whenever they get anything, you know, there is so much of gratitude and so much desire for them to give back in their own way, and they give back by giving of themselves in many ways. So I think those are really inspiring stories for me and it helps you believe that you know, at the end of the day, there is so much of goodness around. It's all you need to do is just look for it and you'll find it somewhere.
Speaker 2:So very true, and what powerful stories they are. Thanks for sharing that and kind of reinforces the fact that we got to move away as a society from being taking stuff to giving stuff. I think we got to inculcate the whole mentality of what can we give? More more of thought. It's just not money, right, it's more of thought, more of goodwill, more of of compassion. I think the more you give, the more you receive.
Speaker 1:That's right, totally agree.
Speaker 2:So, vanisa, as we are talking all of these things. One thing that keeps coming back to my mind is what are some of the life skills that this journey has led you to kind of develop, that you would recommend anybody to kind of jump into this bandwagon and focus on those areas that will help them, not from a technical skill set standpoint, but from a life skill stand.
Speaker 1:So you know, I think, shrikant, my life is almost like divided into two right, because I've had a career shift. And I have to say I think the first part of my career was extremely important. You know, I think Citibank had really built the foundation for me, and then they say Citi is the best university in the world. It really is, because you know, there's so much of autonomy but there's also accountability and there's so much of, you know, ambition and drive amongst people in the organization. So you learn a lot. I think, and I always say that you know, people say you know how does it feel to make the shift? And you know, do you think that this would have been a better career for you? And I say no, I think there is a time and place for everything. And I do believe that this was a really important foundation, because there are so many skills that I learned in the banking sector that I now bring to the social sector. And I'll give you an example.
Speaker 1:You know, every day we are faced with a multitude of risks and in the social sector you don't think of them as risks, right, you just think that everything will kind of work out. But I think when you come from a corporate sector, you're quite cognizant of it and you do make decisions keeping in mind the risk to the organization, to your stakeholders, your community. You know whoever you're dealing with and I think that's an important aspect when you're leading an organization. Managing risk is an important thing. The second is taking risk right. Again, you know, when you work in a corporate sector, you do learn to take risks right, and I think it's important. In the social sector, there isn't enough of past evidence because there are so many new things. So, for example, urban health right, there is so much of experimentation in urban health, so much to learn about. How do you address malnutrition at scale? I mean, clearly, if it was so simple, it would have all been done by now, right? Or how do you address domestic violence? These are very, very complex issues, but it's really important to pilot and try new things. And the minute you have to try it means you have to take risk.
Speaker 1:But taking risk, keeping in mind and this is something I learned quite early at Sneha. But I came and I remember I was asking the board how do you make a decision at Sneha, what is your decision matrix? And I remember the board saying the first and most important stakeholder is your community. Whatever you do, whatever decision you make, first of all make sure that it is the right decision for the community, because they don't have a voice right. The second important thing is the government right, because the government, at the end of the day, is a huge institution and whatever we do, we must do right by the government. When I say right, meaning you work within the framework of policies, laws, etc. And the third was your staff, because, at the end of the day, unless your staff are motivated and you know they are driven towards the mission, you're not going to be able to make them work. And the fourth are donors.
Speaker 1:Now, this is a very complex thing because if you think of marketing in a corporate world you have only one customer, whereas in a social sector you have two customers. You have your community as one customer, that's the customer you are serving, but you have a donor who is also a customer from whom you're getting funds. And sometimes the two customers are not necessarily on the same page. And that's when I think our role of you know making sure what is our North Star. Our North Star is the community. And if we do right by the community. I believe that in the long run, you know, we will never really be making wrong decisions.
Speaker 1:I think the other thing that I have learned is learning to deal with very, very diverse people. In the corporate sector you do not see so much diversity, so diverse people, diverse situations. So one day, srikant, you know, I'm at a five-star hotel making a presentation. The next day I'm sitting on the floor in a slum, you know. So it is so diverse, right? And I think that kind of diversity requires one to keep a very open mind. You have to be very adaptive, and not just be adaptive, you have to actually see the value in every situation, and I think that's a great flexibility that I have learned from this sector.
Speaker 1:And the third, I think a big switch is empathy. To work with empathy, not just with your community but even with your teams, because the staff who come here many of them, shrikant, you'd be surprised they are so highly educated, they are so incredibly bright. They are so incredibly bright. They could have had the best corporate jobs, but they come here and I really salute them. You know they come here when they're very young and they give their lives to the sector.
Speaker 1:And you know you cannot take this for granted, because they have options but they choose to. I mean, I might have come up after spending 21 years in the corporate bank. So I don't think in the corporate world, so I don't think it's so fabulous, but these are people who could have gone from day one into a corporate world and chose to actually take a different path. So I think one has to be empathetic, one has to understand, if you know where they're coming from, what their challenges are, so that we actually support them in this journey. Because we do need more people like this, who are willing to make this bold decision to actually not run to the corporate world and run after money but actually to work, you know, for society. Because ultimately, if you see, in the long run, you know GDP is a value, but you know the value that you're creating in a community is sometimes difficult to quantify in monetary terms, but it's probably much. So I think those are some of the things that I've kind of learned in the last couple of years.
Speaker 2:And if you were to add a dash of leadership skills to that, what would that be?
Speaker 1:I think leadership with humility is what I would say.
Speaker 2:Leadership with humility.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's the most important. And again, fortunately, the way I'm made is I don't believe in a hierarchy. I do genuinely believe that the reason we have organization structures and hierarchies and organizations is because you need it to function right. So therefore, you need a head, you need different department heads, but I think the voice of everybody is equally important. So I listen as intently to my frontline workers I would listen to my director, because I do believe that each of them brings in extremely valuable inputs and if we're able to listen to them, I think we actually can make much better decisions as leaders.
Speaker 2:Humility and listening skills. So, if you're ready, the first of the power of three round question coming to you yeah, three book or podcast recommendations to manage transformation.
Speaker 1:One is that it really, you know, impacted me. One is the courage to be disliked. I think that's, you know. It's about how you actually free yourself, you change your life, you know, you don't put so much of and you actually allow yourself to be who you are. So I think that's the first. The second book that I really and of course I think it's many people's favorites is Man's Search for Meaning, because the kind of experience that you know the author went through as he lived through Auschwitz, and you know the kind of humanity he saw in the most difficult circumstances, is really what I often see, even in the places I'm working in in different ways. And the third, I thought that was actually. I just finished it yesterday. It was a lovely book.
Speaker 1:The Billionaire who Wasn't is written by somebody called Chuck Feeney, and Chuck Feeney actually started the DFS, which is your duty-free services I'm sure you've heard of duty-free services at the airports and this was a man who gave away, wanted to give away all his wealth during his lifetime and he did finally do it.
Speaker 1:And you know, what I liked particularly was the simplicity in which he lived his own life and he felt that, you know, I made all this money. He finally had about $6 billion that he gave away and he felt that, you know, I've just been fortunate to make it and therefore it doesn't really belong to me, it belongs to other people. And the way he has actually given it, in a way where he's used his principles of business in his and kept the principles similar to, you know, in philanthropy. But at the same time, I think what struck me when I read the book is that he seemed like a really humble human being, right, and very often in the book people said that you know, he was brilliant. He was, you know, very visionary, but most importantly is he would connect with people very well and you know, I think his ability to connect was what really I felt was something very remarkable. So those were three books I think that I absolutely loved.
Speaker 2:Three micro experiments that you practice to keep your focus on the mission that you're on.
Speaker 1:One is to try something new and if we fail, fail quick and adapt quick. So that's something that we've tried to do as much as possible and I'll give you an example of this. So very recently, actually about a couple of months ago, we decided to start a WhatsApp chatbot in the community because we did want to encourage the community to, you know, to democratize knowledge, to give them the ability and today, you know, we know smartphones are all pervasive, but, you know, like any tech application, there were lots of challenges, lots of glitches. So, you know, constantly adapting and moving and saying, ok, this is not working, let's try this. I think that ability to move quickly is an important thing.
Speaker 1:Second is, it's very important to keep trying new things, and I'll give you another example. You know we want to bring down costs of work because you know we all work in very low resource settings. So we are often asked, we are often brought new things to test. So maybe there's a new non-invasive way of testing anemia in women, or it could be a simpler way to do anthropometry of children, and we always like to try. Of course, we will not test without there being them, but we are willing to try because we believe that, you know, if we're able to bring in solutions which are low cost, which are non-invasive, it certainly helps the community and ultimately helps the work, that the money we get is somebody's donation and they could have used the money for something else, but they've chosen to give it to us. So, constantly, whatever we do, we're very, very mindful of the way we spend funds, because we have to be, you know, as careful about using the money as possible.
Speaker 2:So very true. If you were to give three piece of advice to your future self, what would that advice be like?
Speaker 1:I think don't take life so seriously. You know, make sure to slow down, smell the roses, have fun. I think I'm quite an intense person, so I would definitely tell myself to slow down and, you know, not take things so seriously. I think the second is self-care is underestimated and as a leader, I think it is extremely important because if we are stressed, under stress, we may make wrong decisions and those decisions could have huge implications and repercussions. So I would say that's another thing I would constantly tell myself you know, self-care, make sure you get time to and I do, shrikant, I do really try and balance my life get time for exercise, you know, nutrition, etc, etc. And third, I think which I really feel is important is, whenever you're interacting with someone, give that person your full attention the person, the situation because I really feel it's the greatest form of generosity to somebody to really give the person and the situation all your time and attention. So I think those are three things that I would tell my future self also.
Speaker 2:Who, according to you, are the three changemakers organizations or individuals to watch out for?
Speaker 1:Tough one. There are many of them, shrikant, but three that I think I admire quite a lot are one is Pratima Joshi, who is the founder of Shelter Associates. She has actually brought a toilet to every home in slums in Pune, kolhapur, satara, a whole lot of places in Maharashtra. Unfortunately, they've not been able to bring her to Mumbai because she thinks Mumbai is way too cramped to do that.
Speaker 1:The second person that I think that I again very visionary and has done something very interesting is Raj Gilda of Lenderhand. He has actually seen the power of bringing alternative education into schools. So when I say alternative, it is bringing in carpentry, electrical work, catering services, because his belief is that, you know, we're so academic, we've been so academically focused on science, maths, history, geography, and we've just forgotten all the other skills that people that are needed for all of us. And he's actually started this whole program, and not just he started, he has put it into the class 10 syllabus in several states across the country. So I think that's really an incredible feat he's done and providing opportunities to people with you know, to young people, to do things that they really enjoy doing instead of being stuck in jobs that they're miserable about. So I think it's really a very joyous thing that he's doing.
Speaker 1:And the third person I think is doing some amazing work is Pooja Taparia of ARPAN, where she works on child safety. She's really been able to bring the issue of child safety to the center and forward in schools, in communities and, given how important it is to keep our children safe, I think it's tremendous work that she's done. So I think those are three. There are many, but you know, I think these are three people that stand out for me.
Speaker 2:Any lessons learned from setbacks, anything that you would want to share?
Speaker 1:Two lessons you know, I think, first of all, learn to say no In our desire to do more and more good. It's very easy to say yes, it's very difficult to say no, but I think saying no is important because it prevents mission drift. It also helps you to manage your own time. You know, when you try and stretch yourself too much, then you end up making a mess of everything. So I think that's one thing that I have learned very strongly when to say no and not feel guilty about saying no.
Speaker 1:The second thing, I feel, is you know you tend to give people a very long rope. You know you be accommodate. Then you try and understand then, but sometimes I think they use a rope to hang you. So I would say you know, give people a rope and make sure it's not too long that they hang you. Make sure at some point, you know, you decide where enough is enough and you end a situation that that isn't going well.
Speaker 1:And I think that the one thing that I've learned in my entire life not just in the social sector, but you know, putting my corporate sector and social sector together is in the long run, you know, hard work and competence really pays off. People who play politics, play games. Do things in not the best way, they do pay the price for it. I've seen it in my own life so many times, shrikant, that I always tell my children also this you know, when they get upset about something, I say you know, do what is right, because in the long run that's the only thing that matters. So these are, I think, three lessons that I have learned.
Speaker 2:What lovely lessons they are. Indeed, if there are three individuals you would love to have lunch or dinner with, who are those three individuals?
Speaker 1:you would want to invite? I think I would like to. So Azeem Premji Philanthropy funds us and this was in 2014, I think, and he came, you know, and he came and he wanted to meet the organizations that he was funding. And I was really scared. When I was meeting Azeem Premji, you know, I said what is he going to ask me? And you know, I was quite new at that time. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't really so familiar with the sector, especially the issue of gender-based violence that he was going to be that they were funding. He asked so many questions, shrikant, but not once did I feel he was asking the questions to check whether we were doing what is right. He was asking the questions to really deeply understand what the issues were, and there was so much humility in the way he was asking questions that I think I would definitely want to spend and have lunch with him, because I think I would learn so much from him.
Speaker 1:The second person that I think I would love to have lunch with is Michelle Obama, because you know, I've read her book and I am absolutely amazed with the journey she's traveled and you know where she was and where she's reached and yet she has been able. Despite all that, she's been able to stay very balanced. It was very easy for her for that power and success to have gone to her head, but she's been able to do, um, you know, just to stay balanced to keep her family in the eight years that you know they were in the white house. You know they came out squeaky clean. And also the whole program that she drove on eating right, eating nutritious food. It's, you know, reducing junk food consumption. I think it was.
Speaker 1:You know you have to be in that position to do the make those kinds of changes. It's not easy. We know that the FMCG companies are extremely powerful, and you know. But if you're in a position, I feel that anyone who's in a position to make change, they should make change because they have that position for a few years and they can do so much with it. So I think she's the second person and I think the third person would probably be Indra Nooyi, because I think a lot of working women can relate to the struggles that she has been through. You know, trying to handle family. You know career, you know work, challenges of work. So I think when I hear her stories you almost feel that she seems so real you know in her own journey and you can relate to so much that she says so again. She's probably somebody I would love to spend time with.
Speaker 2:Anusha, I must say that you have aged the power of fear on like a pro as we kind of come closer to wrapping up this conversation. We spoke a lot about community building the community. I would want to touch upon one element that is common between the communities and the corporate world, which is about scaling right. Right. What are some of the things that you need to consider when you're scaling something and what are the pitfalls to award when you're scaling something?
Speaker 1:so you know, shrikant, I want to first define scaling, okay, um, there are two ways that we define scaling in the social sector. The first is when we scale deep and the second when you scale wide. And I think both are good. You know, it's not that one is good and the other isn't. So when you scale deep, what you're doing is in a community, you're solving more problems. So I'll give you an example.
Speaker 1:Let's take we start working on malnutrition and then we find that the woman is unable to care for herself and her child because she's facing domestic violence. Right, her child is falling sick because, you know, water, sanitation is a problem. She needs income but she can't go out. So therefore, you know how can we make sure that social protection schemes can help her get some minimal income while she's sitting at home, or she gets, say, her food rations, you know. So get some kind of subsidized food. And what you find is, over a period of time, in order to save this one child, you are doing more and more in the same family. We actually find that when you do more than one intervention in the family, you're able to influence the family and that whole community in a greater way. So you're actually able to make deeper and longer lasting change. And there are many corporates that actually do this kind of community development because they believe if you work in one area and you work deeply, you can really make lasting impact for change.
Speaker 1:The other way of scaling, of course, is to keep, you know, expanding, setting up branches, very much like a corporate would do. And you know, I just want to say also here and especially, I think sometimes corporates think that you know, just scale is a numbers game. You have to realize that when you're dealing with communities, it's also about quality. And as soon as you start scaling, the most difficult thing to do is to keep your quality going. So if you're dealing with people, these are not products, shrikant, these are people right, and you know you cannot compromise on quality. You cannot compromise on, for example, I can't start something and then, because I have another opportunity, just leave this community and go somewhere else. That's not fair to the community.
Speaker 1:So ultimately, I think if you really keep the community as your priority, you will make sure that even when you scale, you invest. So we do a lot of due diligence on the NGOs before we partner with them, because we have to make sure that they are philosophically on the same page as us. They have the same North Star that we have. They are willing to learn and adapt, willing to learn from us. And we also learn from them, because when I take my program of urban nutrition into a rural or a tribal area, I'm actually building and developing on my model, because now I'm learning how to work with the tribal population or rural population. So it's a very symbiotic relationship and we want partners that can see it as a partnership and not as a transaction. So I think that's the way that we you know, we look at scaling.
Speaker 2:And also agents of change. Correct and in your role. What do you think people misunderstand you about?
Speaker 1:You know, I think people think I'm very serious because I'm quite an intense person, like I said, you know, and I mean I have my 100% attention on whatever I'm doing. So people tend to think I'm very intense, but actually I think over a period of time they realize that I'm actually quite relaxed. So I actually thought, interestingly, it's the reverse. I thought people thought that I wasn't serious, when I actually am. I realized that it's the opposite. People think that I'm very serious but they realize, like somebody says, you know, you have a very serious face.
Speaker 1:So who had the most impact on your life, career journey all through? I don't think there's a single person. Uh, she can't. I think different people have impacted me differently. There have been different people who've been the wind between beneath my wings or taught me certain lessons for life that, um, I think I I respect them for, um. So, for example, I remember there was one boss at the Miner's City Bank and he taught me something that was very interesting. He said you know, whenever you have a problem, escalate the problem. Escalate it upwards because two things. One is you build trust, you know, with your superiors, because they know that when there's a problem you're not hiding it. You're actually escalating it to them. And two, more importantly, they probably have solutions for you, so don't try and solve all the problems yourself. I think you know that's a principle I've actually carried right through and it has really helped me.
Speaker 1:So I think that's you know, one person who, and from the same person, I think I also learned that the importance of being fair. You know, I remember when I used to be, we were a team of us that used to report into this boss and every day, shrikant, a different person would get fired by him, right? So the good thing is, because we didn't know whose turn it was to get fired, right so the whole team was so united and you won't believe, even after all these years, we're still in a whatsapp group and we're still united because I think you know, one of the things, we realized that he was so fair. There were were no favorites and you know, therefore, everybody looked out for each other.
Speaker 1:So I think these are people that I really admire for the people they are, you know, and very solid, very strong kind of bosses. I've been very fortunate to have worked with some amazing people at Citi. I think the other thing is, maybe some of my teachers have also been a great influence on me and, you know, have been very, very encouraging, supporting and taught me to believe in certain things that I didn't even know were possible in myself, right? So I think those are the kind of people who kind of have left impressions on me.
Speaker 2:Well, it's a hats off to what you have been doing, taking this new wind of life and making the difference to the community around. Couldn't thank you more for taking time and sharing your journey, your insights on what you have been doing with Sneha. Wishing you loads of luck, lot more success. Before we sign off. This show is all about creating ripples of inspiration, which you are doing. What's your? Inspire Someone Today? Message to all the listeners out there.
Speaker 1:I think my message to everyone would be go beyond what you're currently doing. Try and be sensitive to everyone. Try and be sensitive to people around you. Ultimately, we're all interconnected in this large world. If we think we're not interconnected, I think we're mistaken. We are interconnected. I think the pandemic taught us that Nobody is safe from anything in this world. So the more we connect, the more we are sensitive, the more we connect with people and the more we help each other, I think we'll all be a much better place.
Speaker 2:That's a recipe for creating a much better place is see that you are part of the interconnected world and go beyond. I think that's the name of the game Go beyond. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Inspire Someone today. This is Srikanth, your host, signing off. Until next time, continue to carry the repulse of inspiration, stay inspired, keep spreading the light.
