Inspire Someone Today
Inspire Someone Today
E132 | Getting ready for 2025 - OKRs | Dr. Deepa Nagarajan
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Dr. Deepa Nagarajan, a celebrated authority on Objectives and Key Results (OKRs), joins us in unraveling the secrets behind aligning personal and professional goals for a fulfilling life. With insights from her remarkable journey and her enlightening interaction with leadership guru Dr. Marshall Goldsmith, Dr. Nagarajan offers a treasure trove of strategies to overcome self-imposed limitations—particularly for women in leadership roles. Her inspiring narrative lays the foundation for our conversation, which also touches on the essence of her book "Women on Board" and the transformative power of clear, purpose-driven objectives.
This episode goes beyond the conventional work-life balance debate, venturing into the realm of work-life harmonization. We narrate personal sagas of juggling professional ambitions with family responsibilities, shedding light on the pivotal role of a supportive network and a well-defined sense of purpose. Spirituality and philosophical teachings take center stage as we discuss the underestimated value of spiritual quotient (SQ) in guiding life choices that bolster health, happiness, and personal success. It's about weaving work into the fabric of life seamlessly rather than keeping them at odds.
Finally, we unlock OKRs' potential to revolutionize organizational growth. Dr. Nagarajan demystifies common misconceptions and highlights real-world examples that showcase OKRs' adaptability across industries and cultural landscapes. The conversation underscores the necessity of leadership involvement and tackles myths surrounding OKRs, urging organizations to adopt a leader-driven approach. Whether you're an entrepreneur seeking lessons in focus, collaboration, and humility or a listener eager to embrace growth in 2025, this episode is packed with actionable insights and wisdom to fuel your journey.
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Inspirational Stories and Leadership Insights
Speaker 1I didn't think much. Honestly, I didn't have a dream about what I wanted to do, where I wanted to be. So all those visions and all that people have for themselves and today's generations, they are much better off. They at least have an idea what they want to do because of thanks to all the social media you know content that they consume they have some kind of aspiration what they want to do. I didn't know what I wanted to do from a corporate career perspective, but I was pursuing to be in the Indian Air Force at that point in time, so I did pass the PABT, the Pilot Aptitude Battery Test. Just taking a goal for the sake of taking it is not good enough. We drop such goals. Actually, if it is not a game changer for us, how game changing is your goal?
Speaker 2Welcome to Inspire Someone Today podcast, a show where we dive into the stories and insights that has the power to create ripples of inspiration in your life. I'm your host, shrekanth, and I'm thrilled to be with you on this journey of inspiration. Hello, my dear listeners, welcome back for yet another episode of Inspire Someone Today. We're already at the cusp of the year calendar 2024 and getting ready for 2025. What better than hearing from an expert how to prepare well for 2025. Joining me today is an OKR expert, objectives and key results, with over 30 years of experience in business strategy and leadership. It's an absolute joy to have Dr Deepa Nagarajan to join us and share about OKRs and how all of us can prepare for the new year with this newfound knowledge and information. So please join me as we welcome Deepa Nagarajan on this episode of Inspire Someone Today. Welcome to the show, deepa.
Speaker 1Thank you, Shrikanth, for having me on your show. Glad to be here.
Speaker 2Great and couldn't have been a better time than now, like I said in my intro. And couldn't have been a better time than now, like I said in my intro, as people are looking at wrapping up the year, preparing for the new year, we would all do well with a little more insight on goal setting, objectives. But much before that, as I was having conversations with you and looking at some of your backstory, there's one thing that stuck a chord, one thing that both of us are in awe with, and that it's not one thing, it's one person, which is Dr Marshall Goldsmith. So I had the privilege of meeting Dr Marshall a couple of years back. You had the privilege of meeting up with him, but it changed the trajectory for you not so much for me, but it definitely had an impact the meeting up with him. But it changed the trajectory for you Not so much for me, but it definitely had an impact the meeting up with the gentleman. So tell us about your chance encounter with Marshall and how did it change your trajectory, deepa?
Speaker 1You're right, it was actually a chance encounter. I was a big fan of some of his books. I used to read those books, and this was way back in 2017. And I was connected with him on LinkedIn and way back in 2017. And I saw from one of his posts that he was coming to India for some conference leadership conference, right and he was invited as a speaker, and this was in Mumbai. So I was also traveling to Mumbai for another client visit.
Speaker 1So I was like, okay, I'm going to be in Mumbai anyway at that time, so why not just take a chance, message him and see if he's going to spare some time to meet me? So I sent him a personal message saying that I've been a big fan of yours and this is what I've been doing. I've been writing a book on women leadership. It'll be great to meet you, catch up with you and maybe take some insights from you on what I can do when I write this book. So, very surprisingly, he responded back to me and he said I'll be very happy to meet you, deepa. And that's the first thing that struck me. That, being what he is, he was a very humble person and I did go and meet him in Taj Land's End in Mumbai. He didn't make me wait for long, right, that was another thing that I noticed about him. So as soon as I got there and left a message that I have arrived within a few minutes, he was down. He met me in the lobby. He was just heading for another meeting, but he took that time. He had 10 minutes, but actually we ended up spending about 30 minutes that's how interesting the conversation got during which I spoke to him about my leadership coaching endeavors and the book that I was writing on women leadership, so he shared a lot of insights as to where women stop themselves.
Speaker 1Right, that glass ceiling. That's a myth actually. Right, there is nothing called a glass ceiling. We actually tend to put that restrictions and chains on ourselves, and this is true not just for women. I have seen this even in male, you know, members of the corporate community. We tend to put these barriers on ourselves. So how do you break that? By breaking the chain on your mindset, that invisible chain that you've put on yourself. I think this was the key takeaway for me and in terms of what is stopping me, actually, nothing was stopping me, that thin veil, that layer, that I thought something was stopping me actually nothing was stopping me. That thin veil, that layer that I thought something was stopping me, that wasn't there anymore, right, it had kind of vanished. So that was the greatest realization that I got from that meeting. So it was, you know. After that I published my book. So that's how you know, the whole conversation went with him and the meeting went with him.
Speaker 2Wow, a chance encounter leading into that aha moment and leading you to kind of create this book. And, by the way, the book was Women on Board, correct? Tell us a bit about your success with this book. What is the gist of this book and who should be the target audience for this book?
Speaker 1Very interestingly, shrikant, I titled the book Women on Board because I thought that is something that I could share with other women entrepreneurs and professionals and, having worked in the corporate world myself for 23, 24 years before that, in 2017, I was like, okay, why not share some of my experiences, the highs and lows and the challenges that I faced, how I overcame them why don't I share it with everyone? So I talked about principles of leadership rather than making it a gender-based write-up. So, very interestingly, most of the reviews that I got for my book Women On Board, was from men. So I think, okay, the genesis of the book was, like I said, there were a lot of ups and downs and challenges that I faced as a woman, professional, and also as a mother struggling to manage between home and work, and you know the challenges of a young kid and a teenager growing up at home. It was not an easy thing to do, and I remember when my daughter was very young, there were a lot of opportunities I really had to say no to, fantastic opportunities that I had to say no to, and how did that impact me? Right? How did those decisions impact my professional growth?
Speaker 1So these are the things that, when I look back, there were a lot of realizations. One is that sometimes you have to make those difficult choices and, you know, prioritize what is most important for you at that point in time. And the second is we shouldn't look back too much at our past and, you know, have those regretful, you know, retrospections. Whatever we do at that point in time, we need to stick to that by that decision and just go with it, right? So that is, those are some of the realizations I had. And how do you actually, as a professional, ensure that? How do you do that prioritization? What is that key decision making factor that helps you make a difficult choice at a juncture, at a crossroad of your life? I think that is what I share in the book and to break some of the myths in terms of you know all, all that, you know legendary glass ceiling that is supposed to be there for women. There's nothing there. If you do find a glass ceiling, just step out of the ceiling. You'll stand directly under the sky. So this is the message that I, you know, try to convey in that book.
Speaker 1I also have interviewed three very fantastic women leaders, global leaders, in that book. One is Dr Wilma, who was the erstwhile secretary at the White House when President Clinton was the US president. The second is Dr Rabia, who was the global director for UNICEF. She's our you know very own Indian leader. And third, dr Rachel, who was the chief people officer, chief HR officer, and I think she was also handling the legal department at BNP Paribas, the French bank based out of New York. So three different leaders interviewed in my book in terms of what it took them to come out in the open and chase their dreams and lead in the positions that they led and what were the kind of challenges. What were the real ground level challenges and how did they handle that? There are some practical insights not just from my own experience but from three different global leaders. I think it makes for a very interesting read for anybody who wants to grow in life, both personally and professionally.
Speaker 2That's intriguing. We'll definitely lead our listeners to that link to your book. Having said that, you mentioned a couple of elements. One is there's nothing called as glass ceiling Go break that glass ceiling. And second element is to kind of connecting those dots. And in hindsight, does it look easier now, sitting where you are, to kind of say, okay, now it makes sense, now I can connect all of those dots. Again, looking back, you started your career as a sales representative to where you are today, wearing multiple hats, working with big organizations. How do you see all of this in perspective now and make sense out of it?
Speaker 1honestly and I'm being very candid here, shrikant I, when I was in my younger days of my career, I started my first job in 93 94, and I was still in college at that time. I started working already there at that time 94 is when I, you know, started working full-time. When I started working at that age I didn't think much. Honestly, I didn't have a dream about what I wanted to do, where I wanted to be. So all those visions and all that people have for themselves and today's generations, they are much better off. They at least have an idea what they want to do. Because of thanks to all the social media, you know, content that they consume, they have some kind of aspiration what they want to do. I didn't know what I wanted to do from a corporate career perspective, but I was pursuing to be in the Indian Air Force at that point in time. So I did pass the PABT, the Pilot Aptitude Battery Test, in the Service Selection Board, but for various personal reasons, I got selected as well, but for various personal reasons, I didn't pursue that. So that was one career aspiration that I had which unfortunately, I couldn't pursue. So after that the next option was to, you know, take a job and I came across this fantastic opportunity to do sales and I always felt I was very good in you know, people, processes etc. So I just took up this job and started doing that and I was one of the first employees of this company. It was a UK based hospitality company and I did really well right in that role and I did really well right in that role. And wherever the organization opened a new office, I was one of the first people to help them go set up the office. So I got a lot of opportunity to grow, to travel. Both kind of became a part of who I was in terms of pick up the opportunities as they come along the way.
Speaker 1Don't think too much about it, because every opportunity is a learning experience. So those experiences that I had, the kind of trainings that they put us through, I mean it stays with me even today today. So I had one of the best sales trainer from London who trained us when we were very young. Right, and having those sales trainings which were some of the best modules in the world, those principles of connecting with people, connecting with customers, it stays with me even today.
Speaker 1So I don't think I mapped out my career. I just went with the opportunities that came my way and, you know, just lapped up all the learnings that came along the way and today, if you ask me, if I look back at it, I think it was worth it. I wouldn't do anything different from what I have done. I was there in the hospitality industry, I worked in financial services industry for a couple of years and from 2001, I have been mainly in the IT and IT enabled services industry and there's been no looking back. And every opportunity, every corporate job that I had it has its ups and downs, yes, but I think it's added and enriched my life so impactfully, so significantly, that I wouldn't have it any other way. So that's the way I would look at it and I think that's the right way to go about any kind of life learning experience.
Speaker 2And that's a great attitude to have as well. Lap up the opportunities that come your way and no looking back. And having said that, in an era where we are talking a lot about work-life integration, work-life harmony, even those phases are going through a transformation, true, and you seem to be acing up multiple roles with great aplomb. So what is your secret sauce towards it? What's the mantra that Deepa is following to at least come across saying that there is work-life integration, there is work-life harmony happening or not happening?
Harmonizing Work and Life
Speaker 1Yeah, harmony, I like that word actually better than work-life balance, shrikant. There's a lot of debates that have happened on this term. Work-life balance For me it was. I never thought of it as work-life balance because for me, since I had put my heart and soul in every job that I took up, I never thought of work as separate from my life. So work and life I think that segregation, I think it's a misnomer. Right, I am spending. If I'm spending even eight hours at work, eight to nine hours at work, that is a part of my life. It's a very important part of my life, one third of my life at work. That is a part of my life. It's a very important part of my life, one third of my life. So I never thought of work as something separate from my overall life. So I like the word harmonization. I think we have to harmonize our work commitments and our personal commitments.
Speaker 1It's not been easy for me. It wasn't easy for me, especially with young kid at home and you know the demands that comes from their schools and the parenting challenges that we have with youngsters. Oh God, I don't think it has been easy. I wouldn't call it easy, but at the same time I think I had a pretty good ecosystem that I built, a support system or ecosystem that I built who were very supportive during this journey, both for me and for my daughter, be it family, be it friends. I have also have had to, at some junctures, rely on professional caregivers to be there with my daughter.
Speaker 1It's not been easy, right. That's why I mentioned in the beginning there are instances in my life where I had to give up certain opportunities because if I had taken that up, I probably would have to stay away from my child for several months in a row. I could have done it, I could have, you know, relied on my family to do that, but somewhere I felt being my only child. I have one daughter, so being my only child, there is a see. Time is never reversed, right. And there was one point in time I said, okay, there are certain areas where I'm not going to compromise in terms of my time availability and my guidance and my care for my child. So it was not easy decisions but, like I said, shrikant, I wouldn't have it any other way.
Speaker 1I'm glad Today she's a grown-up, she's an entrepreneur herself and she's also, you know, working wearing multiple hats. She doesn't need me today Not that I mean need me in the sense. It's not a needy relationship, right? She had me during her you know most formative years. So it's not easy for a woman to make these kind of choices, but I very strongly believe that if she's able to take her ecosystem into confidence and build that support ecosystem, it is possible to harmonize work and life.
Speaker 1And see, another thing is somewhere, I think, the philosophy of life also kind of seeped into these decision making process as to what is it that I want as a priority, what is my priorities of life, what is the purpose of my life? So when that purpose is very clear, your decision making becomes easier. So I think that's where I was able to create that harmony between work and life and make the right choices at the right time, promising myself that there is nothing called as regretting and looking back. And oh God, I made such a big sacrifice. I don't think it was a sacrifice. I think it was a very conscious choice and I'm very happy I made those choices.
Speaker 2That's so, so, very powerful, that clarity of thought. You gave two, three very strong components here. One is there's nothing called as glass ceiling. Two is having that ecosystem in place, yeah. And three, the clarity of purpose. Yes, right, there's no regrets. I think a lot many times what I've seen and heard of is that guilt feeling right. You mentioned that you let go of certain opposities, knowing that if you had pursued that you would have kind of been away from the family, and that is not what was important for you. Something else was important and to make peace with that decision and not to kind of be emotionally drained about it saying that, okay, how are we?
Speaker 1Yeah, and beating up yourself oh my God, I missed that opportunity. Like it becomes like okay, I was the victim in this. No, no, there's no victimhood in making decisions for yourself.
Speaker 2What drew that clarity of thought in you?
Speaker 1I think I was born blessed with a fantastic parents. My father gave me a very good grounding in terms of what are the priorities of life, and he was a very fantastic human being himself, who was very grounded in life and very spiritual in nature. I think that quality of his rubbed off on me. My mother too. She was the architect of a lot of decisions that I've made in terms of being an inspiration to me indirectly. She never told me to do anything. She always inspired me to think for myself and make conscious decisions. I think that spiritual, philosophical outlook and the inspiration that I had from my parents was the most important aspect. That I had from my parents was the most important aspect.
Speaker 1We have a lot of quotients that people talk about. Right, we talk about IQ, we talk about EQ and stuff like that. Pq, also physical quotient. What a lot of people miss out is the spiritual quotient, sq that grounds you in life. We have we are not eternal beings. We have about 80 or, if we are lucky, 100 years on this planet. What is it that I want to do in those 80 to 100 years? So it's not a great amount of time if you look at the cosmic timelines, but at the same time, it's not a very short period of time as well. So I think, to be able to draw that balance in terms of what are you contributing to the world? What are you contributing to your own success and health and happiness? If you understand these from the finiteness of the time that we have, I think that will help people make the right decisions. The purpose becomes very clear. Since I have this much time and the time is finite, what do I want to do with my time.
Speaker 2What we want to get to is we have this much of time left for the remainder of the year, and the new year is beckoning all of us with hope, aspiration and whatnot, and you are somebody who has been in this industry for such a long period of time, seeing organizations and individuals thrive by embracing this concept. One is having that clarity of thought. Purpose, having that spiritual quotient is important. Along with that, what you're helping organizations and individuals is creating that framework, and that framework is called as OKRs. Tell us a bit about what is OKR in the context of the new year around the corner, how can individuals connect to OKR and build something for their own and make 2025 bigger, better and beautiful?
Speaker 1OKRs is something I started consulting on in 2017, after about 23-24 years in the corporate world. I think becoming an OKR consultant was not a conscious decision for me. Not a conscious decision for me, it's just that I took a sabbatical from my corporate life and I decided to pursue some passions right and some projects which are close to my heart, some not-for-profit projects. So when I started doing that, I did those projects for a year or so and then, when I wanted to get back to the corporate world, something happened. Something unexpected happened. I just couldn't find a job. I couldn't find a job.
Speaker 2After two decades of work experience.
Speaker 1You know, industry had also, at that point in time, had changed a bit and there was this misconception that instead of hiring a 24-25 year old experienced person, I think I can get the same job done by hiring two 10-year experienced person. It was such a bad math in the hiring industry that was happening at that point in time. So I was like, okay, I mean, that was unexpected for me. So I was like what do I do? I had no idea and I had no idea of becoming an entrepreneur either. So I said, okay, let me, what do I do? I have so much of experience, so much of knowledge. Okay, let me start teaching some things to somebody. So I started teaching in a few B schools and I even went to IIM Bangalore you know the NSR cell spoke to a few entrepreneurs there and that's when I realized in the entrepreneurial world people were talking about OKRs but were absolutely struggling to do it right, and for me it was like what's so great about OKRs? Why is it so difficult? That's when I realized that people speak about OKRs but when it comes to doing it and implementing it the right way, they were all copying things off the internet. Lot of myths, lot of bubbles around this framework and that's when I said, okay, maybe this is an area where I can help organizations, and that's how my consulting business was born. This was in 2017. And there's been no looking back, honestly, after that.
Unlocking Potential With OKRs
Speaker 1So the first thing that I did is did some research as to what is the OKR landscape look like in the country. Forget about global. Global had another set of challenges of its own In India. What is happening in the OKR landscape? First thing, and a very stark contrast to what normally people believed, is that people were actually failing in OKRs. To what normally people believed, is that people were actually failing in OKRs and the success rate was something like about 20 to 30 percent, which means there were 70 to 80 percent of the organizations were failing. And guess what? Within the first one year to 18 months, within 12 to 18 months, they were failing in OKR implementation, and this was absolutely interesting for me. So I did a little more deep dive, did a few projects for a few startups to understand what is happening. Why do they struggle? There are a lot of myths and misconceptions around this. We'll talk about that, but that is how my consulting business was born and I started doing helping organizations do OKRs the right way. In fact, I went ahead and did a lot of research on this and I published several research papers as well. In fact, I went ahead and did a lot of research on this and I published several research papers as well. In fact, my doctoral thesis is also about this OKRs as a strategic framework. So as I started doing more research, more hands-on, practical implementations, there was a new model of OKRs that was born, which is what I do now, which has had 100% success rate in all the implementations I've done. So I've done now as on today, I have done 88 projects, the 88th going on globally, in 16 different industries which means OKRs are pretty industry agnostic and 10 different geographies across the globe, working with startups as well as Fortune 100 companies. So that's the kind of breadth and depth of the implementations that I have covered.
Speaker 1So OKR itself I mean, for those who may not know, okr is Objectives and Key Results. It's a great management model. Now here is something I need to talk about. People talk about okr as a goal setting tool. Sorry, that's a very poor use of the model. It's.
Speaker 1Don't use it only for goal setting, because it's very. You really won't be able to extract the power of okrs. Okr is actually a management model. It's a growth. You set your goal. Goal setting is one small aspect of OKRs. If you use it only for goal setting, you will make it another initiative in the organization and it will fall apart after some time. But when you start connecting the goals to your growth, that's when you see the power of OKRs. So if your goals are not leading to your growth, then your OKRs are wrong. So how do you then use OKRs? First of all, knowing that it is not a goal setting tool. Second, stop copying OKRs from the internet. This is what most organizations are doing.
Speaker 1I always say this OKRs are simple, but simple is not easy.
Speaker 1Simplicity is the most difficult thing to achieve in life, whether it's personally, professionally or organizationally.
Speaker 1Something simple is not necessarily easy.
Speaker 1Almost always is never easy to implement. So, okrs being very simple, a lot of people think oh, what's simple here? Let me just look at some examples on the internet and I'm sure I'll be able to do it, and that's why you have a lot of failed projects. Second, google succeeded in doing OKRs doesn't mean I'll succeed. So a lot of people copy Google's examples, tweak it a little here and there and think that it will work for them. No, it won't work. And third, the Indian context and the contextual application of OKRs are very different. How it works in a US organization, even if it's a US subsidiary that you're working for here, it doesn't mean it will work for you Because your employees, it has to have your local flavor. You need to take into consideration the culture and the alignment and you know there are a lot of dynamics in the organization right. These have to be considered before getting OKRs right. So any cut and paste exercise and not doing your homework and your, you know, foundational work, that is a surefire recipe for OKRs to pay.
Speaker 2I'd say that's a good start. Deepak, again, for the benefit of all the listeners, if you were to kind of take an example, each one at the corporate world, one for the individual world, a good example of what an OKR could be like, and how do you kind of go about implementing that?
Speaker 1the first thing is Shrikant, to accept and acknowledge the fact that OKR is not just a goal-setting tool. It's a change management tool. Right, it's a model which helps you transform your organization or your personal life as well, and you have to be able to see the journey from point A to point B. Your point A and point B have to be very clear, and every movement between point A and point B is a milestone. Change is never one big leap. Change has to be smart. It's a smart change thing. Your change has to have definitive, specific, time-bound milestones, and the aggregation of those milestones is what will help you achieve your end result. Having put this context in place, I can give you a couple of examples as to what a personal OKR could look like. For example, your fitness goal right. One of my colleagues had a fitness goal. She wanted to reduce her body weight from 72 to 65, plus or minus 5%. And here is the thing just putting a goal as reduce body weight from 72 to 65 is not enough. You need the timeframe. So her, when she spoke to me, I said please put a time frame, otherwise you're never going to achieve it. Don't keep it open ended. So reduce the body weight from 72 to 65 in six months. Now that is a proper, measurable key result. And the second key result that she took her objective was to feel fit and feel healthy. The key result was reduce the body weight from 72 to 65 in a span of six months. Clear timeline and clear outcome. Second key result you can have multiple key results. So second key result was being able to run five kilometers in 30 minutes without loss of breath. So she was able to run 5 kilometers in 30 minutes, but you know she used to have palpitations, she used to, you know, lose her breath. No stamina. So how does she build that stamina and be able to run that 5 kilometers in 30 minutes? Again in a span of 6 months, within 6 months? How does she achieve that stamina? So these are her key results. So we know the objective. We have the key results, again in a span of six months, within six months. How does she achieve that stamina? So these are her key results. So we know the objective, we have the key results.
Speaker 1What 99% of the people miss when they design their OKRs is to figure out what are the initiators right. The initiators are what are like the strategic needle that moves you closer and closer and closer to your goal. It's a component that a lot of people forget about. You know, or they don't even know about it. Forget about. You know the not doing initiators. They'll do it if they know about it. So a lot of. If you see, if you see OKR examples on the internet, they only talk about objectives and key results, right? Nobody talks about initiators. If you see OKR examples on the internet, they only talk about objectives and key results, right? Nobody talks about initiatives.
Speaker 2In this example of your friend's goal, objective and key results. What would be some of the initiatives?
Speaker 1Exactly. I'll tell you. So if OKR is like a clock, if OKR was a clock, your objective is the hour hand. Your initiative, your key results are your minute hand and your initiative is like the hour hand. Your initiative, your key results are your minute hand and your initiative is like the second hand. You need to track your second hand to know that your clock is working. So people forget about this. So I'll give you an example of the initiatives that my friend took.
Speaker 1So her objective was feel fit and healthy. Key results to lose weight and then to build stamina. Her initiative was first to fix her eating habits. So it was like first, start getting enough fiber, so eat at least five portions of vegetable per day. Second, to increase her protein intake, which means to take protein in a one is to one ratio of protein versus body weight. That is, minimum one gram of protein to 1 kg of body weight. So increase the protein intake. Third, to build her strength right. Do strength training with varied weights for 40 minutes a day, at least 5 days a week. Fourth, to build the stamina do circuit training with cardio for at least 30 minutes a day, five days a week. Fourth, to build the stamina do circuit training with cardio for at least 30 minutes a day, five days a week.
Speaker 1So as she started doing this systematically, so you see you're breaking down your goal into proper milestones and manageable, measurable, clear, timeline-based milestones. So as she started tracking this in a systematic OKR format, she was able to actually see where she was going wrong, why it didn't work for her before, what was she doing wrong, what are the blind spots and what she can do to fix it. So she achieved her goal in eight months. She took a little extra time because there was some back and forth and she failed a couple of times, but she achieved in eight months. She took a little extra time because there was some back and forth and she failed a couple of times, but she achieved in 8 months. So that is the power of managing your change. Okr is only an enabler, but if you use it only to set goals, it's a very like I said, it's a very poor use of the model. You need to use that effectively to manage a transformation exercise.
Speaker 2It's just not the high-level stuff. But getting to the details of it and then stick it all together, Correct. I love the clock analogy that you covered it there. That kind of summarizes it. Focus on the seconds. It takes care of the time.
Speaker 1Yeah, if you don't have the second hand, you don't even know if your clock is working broken. Is it going slow, fast? It's difficult, unless it's a digital clock.
Successful Implementation of OKRs
Speaker 2Even there there are seconds, correct. That aside, you touched upon some of the myths that people carry from an OKR standpoint. What are some of those myths and, along with that, what goes into the successful implementation of OKR, be it as a leader of an organization or as an individual? What are some of the elements of successful OKR implementation?
Speaker 1I think that's a very relevant question. Again, a lot of organizations miss out on that. First and foremost thing to get OKRs right is to not make it an HR exercise. It is not an HR exercise. Do not make it an HR exercise. It is not an HR exercise. And many organizations that I have worked with they completely put the onus and the responsibility on the poor HR department.
Speaker 1Okr is a strategic business initiative. If the leader, the head of the organization, is not dirtying his hands and getting into the game, it becomes very difficult for OKRs to find the light of the day, because I have seen a lot of organizations where the CEO or the head of the company is hands off and it becomes an HR initiative. It fizzles out after some time. So, first and foremost, it's not an HR initiative, so don't put it on the shoulders of the HR department. Second, having your leadership team, your first line, your first level, aligned to what you want as a leader. That's very important. So the leadership alignment to OKRs, to the organization level imperatives that is very important and to clarify this to your leadership team and to your entire organization is very critical, because they should know why you're doing this. The why has to be. Yeah, you may have people who may not agree, you may have people who will be not aligned, who may not want this, but, as a leader, it's in your organization's interest to bring everybody on board, get them aligned to what is it that you want to do and why you are doing. And if that clarity is not provided, srikanth, I have seen a lot of organizations struggle to do OKRs and you know, some companies have even dropped the ball, saying that maybe OKRs are not for us. Yes, okrs are not for organizations who do not make this a leadership and a business drive and get everybody aligned.
Speaker 1You know there are a lot of side effects of OKRs. One of them I have seen is that when you do OKRs the right way, by driving the narrative from top, the narrative has to be driven from the top. When that happens, you'll also see that your organization culture starts shifting and you will see, because OKRs brings a lot of transparency. It brings a lot of transparency and it compels people to collaborate better and you'll start seeing who is actually the person who is the bottleneck in your team. So, someone who has a lot of resistance to collaboration, someone who has a lot of resistance to transparency.
Speaker 1Yes, in many organizations I have seen some confidential OKRs like anything to do with your merger and acquisitions. You don't want to share the data yet because the deal has not come through. Those OKRs you can keep them confidential, but you have to have transparency in the organization. Every team should know what every other team is doing. If you're not, as a leader, able to create the transparency and compel people to collaborate positively with each other, then OKRs will fall apart. So you will know who in your teams are those who are bottlenecks, the weak link of the chain right, and then it becomes your decision as a leader. It becomes a strategic imperative to fix those weak links or remove them. Sometimes there are certain hard decisions also that leaders have to make, and this is not something that HR can or should be doing. It has to be the leader's imperative.
Speaker 2And so you mentioned work care is not a goal-setting tool, it's a change management tool.
Speaker 1Absolutely. It's a transformation management tool. It's very powerful.
Speaker 2Any examples, anecdotes, of where WorkCare has given significant results or where lack of implementation of WorkCare has also taken the organization down south?
Personal Growth Through OKRs
Speaker 1See, I've had a lot of examples where HR was the leading driving force of OKRs, where I have refused to work right Because I know it won't be a success and poor HR will get pulled up if something goes wrong. So my precondition to work is that it has to the blessing and the initiation has to be done by the head of the organization. Right, and even better if all the leaders are aligned to it. Otherwise, as long as he's committed, we'll bring in the alignment. I can give you an example of where it has been. So, where you know the responsibilities given to HR, it usually doesn't sustain unsustainable. There has to be a designated OKR coach or a champion within the organization who should be trained. So there is an OKR governance model that we need to put in place. So if you don't put all these elements of OKR you know practice in place, it becomes difficult. So OKR for me is also a practice. We had a lot of practices, you know, in HP and IBM. Where I worked earlier is to have the different industry practices. So these are some of the prerequisites for OKR to be a success and if these are not put in place, okrs will not work. Where it has worked, I can give you a couple of examples.
Speaker 1So there was this organization that I consulted for who wanted to improve their product efficiency, product launch and efficiency when they go into the market. How can they be more efficient? So faster launch and efficient launch was their objective. So you see, objective is a qualitative statement. You don't have a number there. The key result is where your numeric starts coming in. So our objective was faster and efficient launch. The first key result that they wanted to take is their pre-launch preparation. They used to spend a lot of time. So the product head went and said let us reduce the pre-launch preparation time by at least 40%. And the second key result was to achieve a 90% customer satisfaction in the first couple of months of usage of the new product. So how did they achieve this? So these are the key results.
Speaker 1What's the initiative now? So why is the pre-launch preparation taking time? So you do a root cause analysis and then the problem statement was that the testing is taking a lot of time. So the initiative was automate the testing process by at least 90% to reduce testing errors there were errors happening in testing. To reduce testing errors by at least 30%. So there is a process we follow to do this deep dives. Where this is number 90%, 30% comes. So there is a process to arrive at those numbers. So the initiative was automate the testing process by at least 90% to reduce the testing errors by at least 30%. And the second was to have more customer touch points To first get more customer feedback 40% more customer feedback. So the more feedback you have, the more insight you have into what is a customer delight and what is the customer pain point.
Speaker 1Data is the king and OKR is a lot of things we spoke about, but OKR is also a beautiful data-driven decision-making model. It makes you a data-driven leader. So when I say things like customer feedback, customer pain point, customer delight, where is all this data coming from? So use that data to derive your strategic initiative. So by doing this, they were able to improve their product launch. You know efficiency and reduce the time that they were taking. By the this, they were able to improve their product launch, you know efficiency and reduce the time that they were taking. By the way, they also took hiring as one of the initiatives. So hire two more product experts. That is also a great initiative. So many people put hiring as a key result.
Speaker 1That's wrong. Again, why I'm saying this, shrikant? There is something called as an OKR syntax. When we were young, when we studied English or Hindi whatever local languages were regional languages we studied, we were first taught grammar right. Okr also has a syntax. It has a grammar. There is a particular way in which you need to write OKRs, otherwise you will struggle forever to measure it, and this is another reason why it fails. The syntax is wrong. Your OKR tracking is as good as your OKR quality.
Speaker 2It's a garbage in, garbage out. If you don't understand it, that is what you kind of do.
Speaker 1As your results or outcomes, are as good as the syntax of your OKRs and how you track it, and that's why you know. Earlier days of my consulting, I used to hear a lot of organizations OKRs didn't work for us. Deepa, I'm like why? Why doesn't such a simple model work for you? Let me see the examples of how you did your OKRs. Show me how you did your OKRs and show me how you tracked them. And when I reviewed them, I knew where they went wrong.
Speaker 2Yeah, and to a lot many people who are not used to OKRs, who follow a balanced scorecard kind of an approach. How do you kind of draw parallels, or what's the difference between a BS3 kind of an approach versus OKRs?
Speaker 1I cover this in detail in my book which I've written on OKRs. I've written a book on OKRs called the Growth Scripture. It was a big hit, especially in B schools. It became a reference book. The second edition of the book is going to be out early next year in Jan of FEM. It's called the group's scripture 2.0, the second edition of it.
Speaker 1In this book I talk in detail about OKR versus many other models. So there are people who ask me Deepa, we are doing KPIs, should we do OKRs? Well, kpi and OKR are not competing models. Kpis come much later, after you do your OKRs, and then they ask oh, we are doing Agile, do we need to do OKRs Again? They're not competing models. Agile and OKRs work very beautifully together, especially in IT and product companies, right. And they ask me we are a lean organization. Do we need to do OKRs Again? Lean and OKRs are not competing models. In fact, we have something called as lean OKRs, right.
Speaker 1Same way, balanced scorecard and OKRs. Balanced scorecard is a beautiful base to start building your OKRs on. They're not competing models. Balanced scorecard has its four areas, right the finance, the customer, etc. So those four areas of balanced scorecard, especially if you haven't done your OKRs before. So there are two types of implementations.
Speaker 1I have done Srikant. One is organizations that have tried OKRs, failed at it and who want a correction, the course correction, that is, a corrective OKR implementation. The second is the green field, where they haven't touched OKRs ever in life and they want to start from scratch. And since they do not have a base as to where they want to start their OKRs from, I use the balance scorecard areas to help them set their first level of OKRs. It takes shape after some quarters but that's a balanced scorecard, is a good area to use to build your OKRs on and it gives you since you already would be doing some kind of a data analysis in terms of your performance, in terms of how well you have done financially, what is the kind of customer or market goals that you have employee-related, people-related goals, process-related goals these areas you already would have some data. So it gives a good baseline to build the correct OKR zone.
Speaker 2And Deepa. If I am an individual wanting to get better as a person, what's my start point?
Speaker 1Where do you want to get better and why? Because we know Shrikanth, a lot of people take New Year resolutions and they drop it halfway. How many New Year resolutions are successful? The motivation as to why you want to do something should be powerful enough for you to start on the journey. Like I want to lose weight? Great, but why Is it so important for you? Is I want to lose weight? Great, but why Is it so important for you? Is your health very critical for you? See, these are questions that, as an individual, I have to ask myself. How important and potent is this goal for me? How potent is it for me to make me sleepless if I'm not working on it? Just taking a goal for the sake of taking it is not good enough. We drop such goals. Actually, if it is not a game changer for us, how game changing is your goal? So ask your why.
Speaker 1The why of your goal has to be powerful. I like Simon Sinek who says start with why. Why do you want to lose weight? Why do you want to become fit? There was this lady who said start with why. Why do you want to lose weight? Why do you want to become fit? There was this lady who said, as a family, they wanted to. It was a very nice and a very unique goal I have seen they wanted to ensure that collectively, they reduce their alcohol consumption. But why? You know why it has to be powerful. Yes, it's impacting our health. It is a good cultural shift, or, you know, it is going to bring me health benefits. If these are your motivations, you will stick to it. But you know, if someone is forcing you, like someone, some elder in the family is forcing that concept on you, you, you will not stick to it, given the kind of work pressures that people have. So your why has to be powerful. Ask yourself what is my why? And that is the starting point of building your personal OKRs. And when you build it in this format objective key results and initiatives and use that structured format to track the progress and celebrate small wins, that is the most important thing, shrikant.
Speaker 1Celebrating small wins will lead to larger transformations, actually. So when I achieve a particular milestone if I want to reduce my weight from 72 to 65, if I've achieved 70, I go and celebrate myself, not extravagantly. Not extravagantly, that will impact my goal, like go and indulge in a huge pastry. No, not extravagantly, that will impact my goal like go and indulge in, you know, a huge pastry no, not extravagant a celebration that actually makes you feel good and helps you keep on track with your progress. So I think celebrating small wins is something that even individuals, as well as teams, sometimes forget. In fact, in one of the implementations we implemented this fortnightly mini celebrations we made sure that it's an initiative in the organization, so every fortnight there was a celebration. It could be even virtual, like a small, virtual high five or, you know, a congratulatory note from the leader. This keeps the teams you know enthused and motivated. We need to do the same when we chase our personal goals.
Speaker 2So, before we wrap up this segment of OKR, anything else you want to touch upon this subject, if somebody were to be starting looking to do something around OKR.
Speaker 1Just one simple thing. We have covered quite a few points, Shikhan. Do it for the right reason and do it the right way from day one.
Speaker 2You have been in this industry for such a long period of time, you reinvented yourself. What has been your three sources of learning? Where does Dr Deepak go for her learning?
Speaker 1I believe that learning can happen at any juncture, from anybody. You just need to be open to learning. So my three sources would be anybody older to me, anybody who is my peer and guess what? Even the younger generations, the Gen Zs. They are also my source of learning and inspiration. I am not I never close doors to any source of learning, and I believe that learning can happen till your last breath.
Speaker 2That's so very true. If you were to give advice to your future self, dr Deepa, of 5 years from now, what would those three pieces of advice be for Deepa, your future self?
Speaker 1One is keep learning for sure. Keep learning and learning and learning. Second, contribute more. And third, be more focused and singular. In your Like, when we were young, we did a lot of things right, but as we grow and scale and go closer to the summit, you know it's like a pyramid. You need to start becoming singular. The singularity has to come into play. These are the three things I think I would like to tell myself, my future self.
Speaker 2Three lessons learned in your entrepreneurial journey so far.
Speaker 1Focus meaning don't spread yourself too thin. Collaborate network better and be humble.
Speaker 2Great answers, three setbacks that has helped you to be the person that you are today.
Speaker 1Oh my God, three is too less. I had a lot of setbacks, Shikant.
Speaker 2That's an important thing to call out, because not all success runs on success. It rides on the back of a lot of setbacks and we tend to shy away from the fact that what transfers out in the world is just that success. But what goes behind that is these attacks.
Speaker 1True, the initial days of my entrepreneurial journey were extremely difficult in terms of revenues, right, so there were revenue challenges. So to come from where I was in 2017 to where I am today, it's not been easy. So that setback actually helped me plan my approach better, right. The first one year, in fact, we struggled. We didn't have any revenues, right. So to grow from there to what we are today, being a global organization, has been a massive learning for me, and it was very humbling as well. So revenue challenges, the networking challenges as well right.
Speaker 1Many times when we become entrepreneurs, we tend to go everywhere because we think the opportunities could be anywhere. But I think as you grow as an entrepreneur, you start realizing that it is not possible to in the given limited time that we have. That's where the time consciousness comes in. So becoming time conscious is very, very important shrikanth. So that is something that I learned. I wasn't very time conscious, so I lost a lot of opportunities.
Speaker 1And networking, kind of in the name of you know, networking, we should follow Pareto's principle that 80-20. Who are those 20% people who can add 80% value to your journey? So, to figure out that 20%, I have struggled, right. So the lot of time and effort that goes. So that's where entrepreneurs can conserve their energy. This is a learning and, again, not neglecting, because entrepreneurial journey is very demanding, it can be very taxing. So not to forget the roots and, you know, things that impact your relationships ecosystem, the close relationships so that that did happen initially. So I had to restructure and rejig myself to ensure that I'm able to always be there and they're also there for me. So to create this relational dynamics is very, very important, and that trial and error has taught me a lot to understand where I stand in terms of my success story and who are those people who will be with me along the journey in the long run.
Speaker 2Nice. What are those three micro experiments that are very unique to you, Deepa, that has helped you to stay focused, that has helped you to be on the journey that you are on.
Speaker 1One thing I have seen about myself is that I am able to synthesize the forest view and the tree view for any organization. So my focus, no matter how much data, how much of conflicting information, comes in, my ability and my application of my experience in my entrepreneurial journey to ensure that I don't deviate from the actual goal, even though there is a barrage of information and data that is available, not losing the sight of the forest while moving amongst the trees. This entire entrepreneurial experience has helped me with that to stay focused. The other experience is having worked with both startups and bigger organizations Fortune 100 companies so very different, such a big contrast of how things work. Principles remain the same, but how to apply that by tweaking it. That's why you know I have done 88 implementations globally. Not one has been the same as the other. Every time it's a unique approach. There is no question of cutting and pasting. So this has been a very, very big learning for me. One very important thing is identifying that one key person in an organization who's going to be your champion and your extension. And the second is, though there is a standard syntax and format I use who's going to be your champion and your extension? And the second is, though there is a standard syntax and format I use, I do change the formats based on the requirement and the pace at which the organization is moving.
Speaker 1And there are several components of OKRs. You have objective, key results, initiatives. These are the three components I spoke about. There are several other components like tasks, activities, business as usual, baus, we call them. So how do you use a permutation combination of these elements that is different for different organizations? That's what I have seen moves. It doesn't have to be. Usually an organization takes minimum two quarters, one or two quarters to stabilize in their OKRs, but there are organizations that have even taken six quarters. So it takes time and to understand that pace at which the organization can move, that's a little bit of an experiment and that's where your business acumen and experience comes into play. That's why it's not an HR game.
Speaker 2I think you have sent home the fact that the leaders will have to take ownership of OKR implementation Loud and clear there. The last of the power of three round question here, Deepa, is three book or podcast recommendations, maybe in the field of OKR, maybe any other field that is your favorite.
Speaker 1I don't know why, but I like Jorogunun experience though it has nothing to do with OKRs or even leadership, but the sheer personality variety of people who come there on that show. It's a great learning in terms of how people think and also where you're able to call out that this person is not actually being genuine on screen. So I think it's a great learning for me. I love GRE. I also recently watched a couple of podcasts by Nikhil Kamal Some good stuff. Again, nothing to do with OKRs as such, just understanding people and what picks them, and I think these are the two that come to my mind Shrikanth.
Speaker 2Any OKR book that you would recommend for somebody who has no voices in this?
Speaker 1Yeah, I would definitely See everyone I speak to have read Measure what Matters by John Doerr. I would call it OKR 1.0. If you want to really understand the nuances of OKR that I just spoke about for the last 60 minutes that we spoke, nobody tells you. So I would recommend people also to go through growth scripture 2.0.
Speaker 2That will get launched in jan sometime like I always do before we wrap up, I ask my guests what's their? Inspire someone today? Message for all the listeners, because this is a platform of creating ripples of inspiration. So, before we sign off and as we wish our listeners a very happy and joyous 2025, what's your inspiration today? Message for everybody out there.
Speaker 1Don't take on too many goals in life. Take that one or two goals, but chase them till you really achieve them. So I think the power of focus and the power of alignment is very, very important in life. Otherwise, with the kind of distractions that we have, it's so many channels, so much of content that we end up consuming. Invariably it's very difficult for us to stay focused and it's very easy for us to get carried away by so many things that are happening. So what is your life purpose and how would you like to align with it? Right, and if you can bring in that alignment and clarity, I think it will go a long way.
Growth and Inspiration in 2025
Speaker 2Quality over quantity, purpose over alignment, clarity, yes. On that note, deepa, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, wisdom on OKRs and beyond, wishing you a fantastic 2025 and thanks for taking your time and sharing your thoughts with us thank you so much, shrikant, for having me.
Speaker 1It was great talking to you and sharing all these insights and I wish you and all the listeners a very, very happy, successful and goal oriented growth oriented 2025. Successful and goal-oriented growth-oriented 2025.
Speaker 2Thank you for joining us on this episode of Inspire Someone today. This is Srikanth, your host, signing off. Until next time, continue to carry the repulse of inspiration, stay inspired, keep spreading the light.
