Inspire Someone Today
Inspire Someone Today
E139 | Power, Politics, Culture | Niven Postma
In this captivating episode, we dive into the often-untouched realm of office politics with Niven Postma, a distinguished strategy and leadership consultant. Challenging the negative perceptions of workplace politics, Niven offers powerful insights into how embracing political intelligence can significantly enhance your career trajectory.
Discover the importance of engaging in office politics while maintaining your values and integrity. Niven shares her personal experiences navigating highly politicized environments and emphasizes that political skills can be learned and mastered. By building awareness, assessing one's influence, and taking actionable steps, anyone can leverage office politics to benefit not just themselves but their teams and organizations.
As Niven likens leaders to gardeners, tune in to learn about cultivating a thriving organizational culture, fostering strategic relationships, and navigating toxic environments. This episode serves as a must-listen for professionals looking to empower themselves in the workplace and create positive ripples of influence.
Join us for this enlightening conversation that promises to shift your perspective on the political landscape at work. Don’t forget to subscribe, share, and leave your feedback!
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And what I didn't understand was that of course there are toxic politics and of course there are negative and destructive politics, but, for heaven's sake, there's a whole world of politics that we are not aware of, that we don't pay any attention to, so we throw the baby out with the bathwater, because actually, what politics are is about how you influence people, how you influence discussions, how you influence agendas at work to get things done Around. Leaders and leadership is. You know, one of the things that I truly believe and have experienced in my own career and own life is that, as leaders, we get what we demonstrate and what we tolerate and what we celebrate what we demonstrate and what we tolerate and what we celebrate.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Inspire Someone Today podcast, a show where we dive into the stories and insights that has the power to create ripples of inspiration in your life. I'm your host, shrikant, and I'm thrilled to be with you on this journey of inspiration. Srikant, and I am thrilled to be with you on this journey of inspiration. Inspire Someone Today. Listeners, welcome back to another episode of Inspire Someone Today, wherein we bring in inspirers on every episode of ours. This month we are celebrating Women's Day. Like always during the Women's Day month, we get four inspirers to come on the show to share their thoughts, and also this is our way of celebrating Women and Women's Day on this platform. Joining me today, all the way from South Africa, is a fantastic, fantastic individual human being. Niven Postma is a distinguished strategy, leadership and culture consultant with a rich background in executive roles across various sectors. She is renowned for her expertise in organizational politics, leadership, development and women's leadership. It's an absolute joy to have Niven joining us on this episode of it's Per Someone today. Welcome to the show, niven.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. It's lovely to be here. It has actually been an interesting journey. Every time I stop to think about it, or every time my mother sees me post something on LinkedIn and thinks that I'm amazing, it does help me remember some of the things I've gotten to do.
Speaker 2:Even before we get started, I want to give a heads up to all of our listeners. If you're not following Niven, she's very active on LinkedIn. She wrote this wonderful, wonderful LinkedIn post when she turned 50. This is a must read for many of you. If you have not read that, with that said, niven, I'll jump right in.
Speaker 2:You are somebody who has specialized in office politics and you have written a book around this, so we will focus a significant part of our conversation on this particular piece, because this is front and center for many of the listeners who are working professionals. I call this as the nuts and bolts of office politics. So if you don't do politics, politics will do you. And then, interestingly, incidentally, is also the title of your book. What do you mean by this and why it is important to engage in office politics? And the bad press office politics has got is it's always negative, it is bad, it is not something one needs to indulge. But you had completely given a different spin to this. You have a different take on this. So what do you mean by this and why is it important to engage in office politics?
Speaker 1:yeah, thanks. Look, by way of background, somebody said to me once oh so you wrote the book you were meant to read and I thought that was hilarious but also exactly correct, because, you know, you alluded to my 20 years of experience. But, frankly, for most of my years working as an executive, I really was completely allergic to the idea of office politics. I mean, I just thought I come to work to get my job done, I don't come to work to play all these stupid games. I'm too straightforward, I value my values too much to do all of this underhanded nonsense. And what I didn't understand was that of course there are toxic politics and of course there are negative and destructive politics. But, for heaven's sake, there's a whole world of politics that we are not aware of, that we don't pay any attention to, so we throw the baby out with the bathwater. Because actually what politics are is about how you influence people, how you influence discussions, how you influence agendas at work to get things done. And so I don't know about you, but certainly if I think about my career and my training ton of focus on IQ, ton of focus on EQ, but really no focus on PQ, political intelligence. How do you navigate the competing, conflicting agendas and priorities in all organizations and really to do that.
Speaker 1:It's about building four things. It's about building your strategic relationships. It's about building your influence, building your power and authority and building your reputation. And of course, building those things can be completely psychopathic and sociopathic and all about you and your own self-advancement at the detriment of others and to the expense of the organization. But actually it can be the complete opposite of that. It can be about benefiting your team, benefiting the organization and, yes, benefiting yourself along the way. But it doesn't have to be an either or. Well, either you play the stuff and sell your soul, or you you don't and you hold on to your virtues. No, it can be a both end you make a valid point there.
Speaker 2:This is about strategic influence, reputation, but somebody was not used to this and again, we did touch up on this. It has a very negative connotation, partly because of the politics that we've seen all across the world, the politicians that we kind of see of, and the natural extension of that is that must be bad for me to kind of dabble into it yes, look, I think that's a very common misconception and certainly it was one I completely share.
Speaker 1:So a few years ago, I wrote an article about the five myths of office politics, and I wrote about them because they were myths that I labored under for way too long in my career, and the first one was that you can either be a good person or you can play politics. No, if you understand that politics are neutral how you use them, to what ends you use them, in what ways you use them sure that can make them positive or negative. The second myth is that you can escape the stuff. Well, spoiler alert for every listener out there you cannot. Okay, it doesn't matter whether you're in a corporate or in an academic institution or in a charity. You get a group of human beings together and they are going to be competing agendas, and so you're going to have politics. The third one is that the stuff doesn't make a difference to your career. I mean, if I had a dollar or a pound or a rupee for every time people say I just come to work to do my job and my work will speak for itself, well, I'd be very wealthy, and in fact, every single person who says that is wrong, because your work does not speak for itself. People speak and so being politically skilled, having political intelligence, building political capital, makes all the difference in the world to your career. The fourth myth is this idea that actually all of this disappeared and disappears in a virtual environment. Oh well, if I'm not going to the office, I don't have to play office politics Nonsense. The form might have changed, but the reality of politics is inevitable.
Speaker 1:And the last myth is this idea that this is a trait. You know, I'm either born knowing this stuff, because I'm an extrovert and I'm able to do it and I want to do it, or I'm not, in which case better luck next time. No, it's not a trait, it is a skill. And like all skills, you can and you know I argue in my work you should learn it. And like all skills, with practice you will get better With all skills. With practice you will get better with all skills. It comes more naturally to some people than to others, but most of us have to learn this stuff one way or another see great list of myth busters there.
Speaker 2:Let me pick one or two elements of the myths that you stated. One is it's a trait and I don't have it, so so let me not get into it. So what would you recommend to people to develop this as a trait, and even in a lot many ways? We call it as politics. Some people might call it a different name. Ultimately, it boils down to relationships, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yes. So I think that's a great question and for me, there's always three things that I suggest to people and advise. The first thing is an awareness. So build an awareness and an understanding of what politics are, the inevitability of them, the importance of them, and, just as you suggested, frankly, if the phrase work politics makes you just cringe and feel completely ick, well, change your language. Don't call it office politics. Call it informal influence, call it stakeholder relations, call it building relationships that matter, call it whatever you want.
Speaker 1:But this is what you are doing. You are getting engaged and effective in the informal, unofficial, behind the scenes things that happen in all organizations around relationships and influence. So be aware of it, understand something most people don't understand, and change how you think about it, change your framing. So that's the first step. I think. The second step, then, is start to assess yourself. So where do I feature, how do I show up for better or for worse as a political player, and so on my website there's a workbook. People can download it for free and understand, okay. Well, if these are some of the elements, if these are some of the exercises and some of the dimensions, how good or how bad am I, how close or how far away am I from being as effective as I'd like to be? And then, having understood yourself because the theory is one thing, my experience is another thing, but this is about you and where you are in your career and what you want out of it and what you're prepared to do or not do to get it Well then, the third step, as with all strategies and all skills, is action, and so the last exercise in the workbook is around developing your political strategy.
Speaker 1:What do you want? Where are you? Who's on your side? Who's against you? What matters to you? And then, what are you prepared to do, not just for yourself, but for your team? Who's counting on you, for your stakeholders, who need you to be effective in this space to get things done? What are you prepared to do to make it happen?
Speaker 2:that's a wonderful 3a framework that you're given awareness, assessment and actions. Yes, so while we do all of these things, one thing is very clear you cannot insulate yourself. You are either actively in it or you're passively in it. You're not there in the middle. And a very critical element of this is the role of a leader. Right, how can leaders create a culture where office politics is healthy and productive rather than being toxic?
Speaker 1:Look. So I think there's two important elements to it. I think the first thing is around what are toxic politics? Because I think it can be understandable and tempting, but also wrong, to label anything political as toxic. No Right, minimally politicized, moderately politicized and highly politicized environments these are on the spectrum of normal, these you will not escape. Where it becomes, where an organization or department becomes pathologically politicized, then it starts to become toxic. And then my advice is to run like crazy Because, as with anything toxic, it's going to kill you, and I'm not just speaking metaphorically.
Speaker 1:And so toxic is when there is constant, unrelenting fear and abuse. You know, people are coming in just too scared, too nervous to say anything. They start displaying and experiencing all the typical symptoms of abuse a sense of gaslighting, a sense of starting to doubt their own sanity, which sounds completely overblown and overstated. In truly toxic situations we are talking about abuse, and so this kind of experience sadly, in my experience, as overblown as it sounds happens way too often, and some of the stories that I've heard are absolutely heartbreaking. So truly toxic is not a manager with high standards, with demands, with tough feedback. Truly toxic is abuse and fear constantly.
Speaker 1:So that's the one thing and I think the second thing around leaders and leadership is you know, one of the things that I truly believe and have experienced in my own career and own life is that, as leaders, we get what we demonstrate and what we tolerate and what we celebrate. So if you don't want a toxic political culture, knowing that politics are inevitable, demonstrating toxicity is a surefire way to get it. Tolerating toxicity, well, you're going to reap what you sow and celebrating which is unlikely in this case, but celebrating anything that smacks of toxicity or anything that would make other people feel and understand that this is aspirational. You're going to get, like I say, what you demonstrate, what you tolerate and what you celebrate. And so, as leaders, that shadow that we cast, that example that we set, is absolutely critical. But you know, as leaders, we cannot divorce the culture that we have from how we show up. The two are inextricably linked. Of course, it's different if you're coming in as a new leader. You're inheriting something, but very soon it becomes your responsibility.
Speaker 2:And in the work that you have done, having worked with lot many organizations, teams functions. What would your word of advice for team members who are in the middle of a toxic environment? What do they do in order to overcome it, get over it, deal with it?
Speaker 1:yeah. So see, I have deliberated around this a lot, having been in one toxic environment in my career fortunately only one, and fortunately only for eight months and reflecting on that career, reflecting on my behavior, reflecting on the things I did and didn't do, researching it, speaking to a coach about it, speaking to a colleague who got a PhD in corporate bullying I mean, it's possible to get a whole PhD and the subject is so extensive I have to I've really repeatedly come back to one conclusion and that is if it is truly toxic of the type and at the level that I speak about. My only conclusion, having really thought about this from every angle, and my only advice is to get out that you actually cannot change true toxicity, because understanding and acknowledging that you are in an abusive relationship, it's like any abusive relationship right, it's not going to end well. And again, you know, as I mentioned earlier, some of the stories that I have heard from people who have endured toxicity, telling themselves they are the problem, protecting their team members and thinking I'll make it better, telling themselves that they can outlast the abuse, telling themselves that they can't afford to leave I mean divorce breakdowns my colleague in the situation that I was in incredibly fit and strong woman had three heart attacks in 18 months. I mean, this is an insane level of stress that people are under.
Speaker 1:And again, you know, if you've never been in an environment like this or a situation like this, you might be listening to me and thinking gosh, isn't she being just a little bit melodramatic? Isn't she engaging in just a little bit too much hyperbole here? You know where is her sense of agency, and couldn't she just stand up for herself and speak truth to power? Trust me, I have plenty of agency and I have a very solid backbone, and I did speak truth to power. You don't change an abuser, and so, if it is truly abusive, the advice that I gave to a woman a while ago when she said, look, I'm hearing all of what you're saying, but I can't afford to leave my job. I am the sole breadwinner in my family my response to her was similar to the advice that I'm giving to anyone who's listening to us is that, look, I understand that you cannot afford not to work, you're the sole breadwinner, but what I'm really strongly urging you to understand is that if this carries on for much longer, you will be in a position where you cannot work because physically, emotionally, intellectually, mentally you will be probably crushed by this, given all the research, given all the evidence, given all the anecdotal stuff that I've seen in my career and in the lecturing and work that I do. So the fact that you have to work does not mean you have to work in this job for this person. And while you still have a sense of competence and confidence, for heaven's sake find something else.
Speaker 2:That's intense.
Speaker 1:Well, yes, look, it is intense because certainly in my workshops and my classes, I mean, we have a lot of conversation and a lot of engagement and there's a lot to laugh about and to get people thinking about. But when it comes to this part of the workshop, I do get incredibly serious and I do get intensely serious because I feel so strongly about it.
Speaker 2:I want to round this up with, again coming back to the role of the leader, and I love the metaphor that you use leader as a gardener. Can you touch upon that particular element and how leaders can create that kind of a thriving environment and make it livable, lovable for everybody around?
Speaker 1:yeah, so gosh. I mean, if we were to google definitions of leadership, I mean, how many millions or billions might come up? So I suppose everyone has their own favorites and model of leadership and ideas and pictures of leadership, but for me, this idea of a leader as a gardener is one that really resonates with me, and not just because I particularly enjoy gardening, but it's this idea that, as a leader, I don't make people do anything, in the same way that, as a gardener, I don't make my plants grow. What I do is I create the conditions in which they can thrive, and by necessity, that means slightly different conditions for different plants. So the plants that love sun need to get the sun. The plants that want less water must get less water. So there is a degree of of customization and a degree of care for each individual plant and plant type, but there are also some blanket rules.
Speaker 1:No plant is going to survive weeds, and so it doesn't matter who you are in a team, what plant you are in a garden. The moment you have something toxic come in, like we've been speaking about, then I need to be ruthless, I need to rip it out, and so toxicity in an organization and a team needs to be dealt with very ruthlessly. You need to get it out like I would get weeds out, and then at the end I give everything possible I prune, I shape, I give fertilizer and so on and so forth. As I do with a team, I give feedback, I give support, I give very clear, constructive help where it's needed and then ultimately, what happens is people thrive and flourish or they don't. And when people thrive and flourish and when the garden is looking beautiful, I can take some credit, but ultimately it's those plants that did it. I created the conditions for them to be the best that they can be.
Speaker 2:So, as a leader, it's your responsibility to create the conditions.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I think you know this is where politics comes in, because, particularly for the managers and senior managers who listen to your podcast, you know this idea that politics are a distraction from your job. No, the more senior you get, they become your job. They are your job because it's the people below you. You are doing the work. You know, producing the accounts or the statements, or the models or the presentations, or the customer queries being handled. They're doing the actual work. What you are doing is navigating the landscape. The actual work. What you are doing is navigating the landscape, navigating the priorities and getting the resources to create the conditions for them to do their work and even for everybody listening to this conversation.
Speaker 2:I'm sure they'll be wondering who is this wonderful woman who is talking? What is her background? Where did she come from? So how about telling a bit about yourself? How did you end up becoming what you are today, and what was growing up for Niven?
Speaker 1:like. Well, the short answer for how I do the work that I do today is that it's quite simple actually. I got fired and so that certainly got my attention, and especially because I'd had a very successful, very high profile career, I had my first executive position when I was 29. And I always say, look, I would not have hired me as CEO. So how the board hired me is frankly still beyond me. But the moment I had that very senior position, which was quite a high profile one, well then I got more senior positions and I got fellowships and I studied and I got all kinds of amazing opportunities to do really meaningful work, and so technically I was incredibly good at what I did and generally was very good with the relationships, which is why I never looked for a job. I always had roles offered to me across sectors, across industries, completely reinventing myself.
Speaker 1:But in one role I really underestimated quite how politicized this organization was and I made the classic mistake of thinking I can just get on with it and do my job because that recipe had worked perfectly well up until then. In this context, it was not enough. There was a whole degree of politicization and informal relationships and influence that I was completely ignorant of, oblivious to, and if I had been made aware of them I probably would have dismissed them. And then, lo and behold, one day I get fired. And I didn't realize it because at the time it was a very, very pleasant, amiable conversation with my boss, who was saying that I'd been retrenched, which is a South African word for being made redundant or let go, whatever the equivalent is in the country where people are listening from. But in South Africa we say you've been retrenched.
Speaker 1:And because I was so senior, I got a fantastic payout and package and I thought, well, hallelujah, because actually I was really starting to get incredibly frustrated in this role and not enjoying it at all and I thought, well, what a wonderful way for it to have been resolved. And it was really only my partner who brought the truth home to me and I was saying, yeah, I've been retrenched, and I'm not minimizing that for some people that would be deeply traumatic For me. It wasn't no-transcript, it was dressed up as a retrenchment and I was paid a lot of money to go quietly. And telling me that I'd been retrenched got me to go quietly in a way that telling me that I'd been fired never would have. That is what's just happened here, and so that then just got me thinking and reflecting. Okay, so you've been a rock star, but what happened here that you didn't understand?
Speaker 2:Was that definitely a defining moment in your journey?
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely, no, absolutely and certainly for this work that I now get to do, because, you know, people have said to me for years but you should teach and you should speak, but about what? I've got an opinion on everything and I think this experience certainly focused my mind and I took three months to really deeply reflect on myself, on my career, to research a subject that I'd been utterly averse to, the subject of power and politics, politics. And then from there, a very good friend, who also runs a very successful business doing leadership development programs, asked me to put together something on politics, a whole day workshop. And that was seven years ago and from there it's just escalated.
Speaker 1:And I think the value is that I don't just speak about this stuff. Theoretically, I can speak as a leader. I can speak from my own experiences experiences not from the experiences of case studies, of students or whatever and I've worked across multiple sectors and now I get to work with very senior people, but I also get to work with grads. I get to work with people in South Africa, I get to work with people all over the world. I get to work with people in person and virtually. And this subject, this dilemma, this challenge of workplace, relational workplace politics and relationships at work.
Speaker 2:This is something that intrigues and fascinates all of us and this is a fantastic example to a lot of the listeners, and to me as well, is you can pivot your careers at any time in your life and you you are a great example. You started something like this not wanting to do this, but situation forced you to do it. And here you are. You're kind of taken this like fish to water and thriving in this particular piece. So what would be your advice for people looking for those career shifts? What do they need to be watching out for, or what do they need to not watch out for? I, what do they need to not watch out for?
Speaker 1:I think one of the best pieces of advice I've ever received and so I would say that this was a defining moment for me as well was okay. Admittedly, I have a very different risk tolerance to other people and a very different definition of risk, and for me, risk is not just about the bad things that may happen, it's also about the good things that may never happen, that I will never get to experience if I don't try this. And so, with that by way of context, I spent four years after high school traveling around the world. I just backpacked and I worked as a chambermaid and all manner of things. And then I only started studying when I was 21.
Speaker 1:A strategy consultant for a big American company, and was really quite enjoying all the perks and all the affirmation and the being flown to Boston and knowing that this company was founded by business school professors from Harvard Business School, I felt like quite hot stuff. But after about three years I was starting to get a bit restless and thinking, gosh, I'm always handing over slide decks to clients. I'm sure it's much harder to really do this stuff, but that's not what we do. And I ended up having a conversation with a friend of my family's and not a very good friend in terms of we hardly ever saw him, but he happened to be in town and said would you want to go for dinner? And so I went out and we ended up having a conversation that I've never forgotten. And he was a very successful entrepreneur. And I'm not saying that entrepreneurship is the only definition of success. Not at all. You can find deep fulfillment and meaning in a paid role.
Speaker 1:But he happened to be a very successful entrepreneur and was asking me how's it going in my career? And I said well, it's really nice. I'm getting a bit restless and I'm not sure what to do next. And he said so then why don't you start looking for something? Or why don't you leave and then start looking? And I said well, you know, it's the security. I get a really good salary, got great benefits, I've got all these opportunities. My parents think I've hit the jackpot in terms of a prestigious job. And he looks at me. He says but you've completely lost the plot.
Speaker 1:And he said because I'm not saying that a good job isn't great to have, but you can lose your job tomorrow. A company can go bankrupt, it can downsize all kinds of things. You can get on the wrong side of the wrong person, he said. And money in the bank? That's not security, he said. You can lose that money in a bad investment, in a failed venture, in a whatever he says.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying these things aren't important and aren't lovely to have, but they're not security. You are your own best security and if you don't understand that, well then frankly, all the other things that you're relying on to give you security are just window dressing, they're just plasters. If you don't understand that you are your own best security and that, no matter what happens, you can and will figure things out, then you've lost something really fundamental and you know that was such a profound realization. I am my own best security, I will figure things out. And so, yes, of course it's nice to have money in the bank.
Speaker 1:Yes, of course it's nice to have the option and the latitude to do good things in my work and in my career and in my life. But, frankly, ultimately, for my entire life, even if things were to go south, I know I could make a plan. I could waitress if I needed to. I waitress at university. I could do that. I will always figure something out, and knowing that, I think gives me an appetite to try things, to back myself, to do things, to see how things will turn out, that maybe I wouldn't otherwise have Because I know I'll be fine.
Speaker 2:That's a wonderful nudge that your friend gave you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think less of a nudge was probably more a pushover.
Speaker 2:And I mean as someone who's so deeply involved in this kind of work. You have also been coaching a lot of the executives. How do you continue to learn and grow personally for yourself? What is your mantra for personal learning and personal growth?
Speaker 1:So I don't know if you know the Gallup Strengths Finder. It's a fantastic way of understanding your strengths, not just your weaknesses. But one of my top five strengths is learner, so I love learning. So, on the one hand, I my top five strengths is learner, so I love learning. So, on the one hand, I can't. Not. It's just how I'm wired. I'm always wanting to understand more and learn more and discover more.
Speaker 1:But on the other hand, I mean, you know, I've got this huge bookshelf behind me and it's one of five bookshelves in the house and this one is to see. All of them are floor to ceiling, and often people, when they see the bookshelves, ask gosh, how many of these books have you read? And it reminds me of Umberto Eco, the novelist, and he used to talk about his anti-library. I think he had 30,000, maybe 50,000 books in his anti-library and he said no human being can read 30,000 books in a lifetime, even if you read a book a day, which is impossible, he said. So the purpose of his books is to remind him of all the things he doesn't know. And so I think, on the one hand, I can't not. On the other hand, I make sure that I remember. Yes, there are things that I know and things that I know to be true and I can share and can add value to the world, but it is impossible that I know all the things I could or should know and that keeps me moving forward, I suppose.
Speaker 2:That's also kind of letting us know a bit about humility as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, hopefully, hopefully.
Speaker 2:Nevin, we have this segment in our conversation, what I call the power of three rounds. So if you're ready, we'll get into the power of three rounds. Since we are talking about books and readings, let's start off with that. What is Nevin's three book or podcast recommendations?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I don't listen to a ton of podcasts, but I really do enjoy Diary of a CEO with Stephen Bartlett. I think he breaks all the rules and brings in interesting guests. Books I love anything by Adam Grant. I think he bridges academia and practicality incredibly well. And then, in terms of novels, I think you can learn as much from novels as from nonfiction. And I think Chimamanda Adichie you know the Nigerian novelist has profound wisdom in her novels.
Speaker 2:Great, good start. If you were to give us three micro experiments that will help one to strengthen their leadership skills, what would those three micro experiments be?
Speaker 1:The first one is to listen to your narrative. What are you telling yourself about yourself, about who you are and who you're not? And some of that might be massively outdated. You're taking it as fact. It's not. It's just your internal narrative, and that might be due for an upgrade. So just listen to your narrative.
Speaker 1:I think the second thing is there's a wonderful article around why should anyone be led by you? It's a powerful question, and what they talk about there is the quality of tough empathy. I think that combination is a powerful one, and so, if you are naturally empathetic, maybe can you keep the empathy but dial up the toughness, the accountability. And similarly, if you're naturally tough, and that's your default, can you bring in the empathy as well? Can you try to get both right?
Speaker 1:And I think the third thing is I think leaders we don't often take time to remember or think about what we know. We are focused on what you don't know. So what do you know and how can you document it? Can you go to social media? Can you use social media to get your learnings and your insights out there? It doesn't have to be every day, you don't have to get a following of millions, but can you start to package what you don't know you know in terms of leadership, wisdom and insight, and use the platforms like linkedin or instagram, whatever you know you're most active on that's a good one.
Speaker 2:I really love the tough empathy bit of it. I mean three women you admire for their leadership and influence I would say margaret weakly.
Speaker 1:Uh, she had a profound influence on how I think um as a leader, uh, in terms of how she shows up. Again, I would say Chimamanda Adichie. I think she's broken all manner of stereotypes in terms of how she shows up as an African woman and a thought leader. And then I'd probably say, from a strategy and innovation point of view, rita McGrath at Columbia Business School is astonishing, but then I have to add a fourth Hermine Ibarra at London Business School, I do astonishing, but then I have to add a fourth Vimini Abara at London Business School. I do some work with her and had followed and admired her work for years, and it was just wonderful to meet her in person and to realize that this thought leader in luminary was as warm and personable as I could have hoped for.
Speaker 2:What a wonderful lift. We'll definitely give a shout out for all of these four wonderful women. Niven, if you were to give three pieces of advice to your future self, what would Niven sitting in 2035, be proud of?
Speaker 1:First one is I've been very proud of my sister for getting her health back into line, specifically by fasting, and I know that in India and Hindu religion all manner of things fasting is a big thing. Start fasting, you've wanted to, so start doing it. I started yesterday, so carry on today and for the rest of the year. Second of all, don't forget the permission slip. I had a coach who had this wonderful phrase give yourself permission to do things. Give yourself a permission slip to say yes, to say no, to try something, to be rejected. Don't lose sight of the permission slip. Keep it front and center. And I think the third thing would be do more of the same. I was at my high school reunion last year and I was saying to people I'm one of the few people that I know, sadly, who is immensely happy with my life, proud of happy with my life, which is full of conscious choices. So keep doing more of it.
Speaker 2:That's a fantastic space to be in as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so what's on the horizon? What are the three projects or three things that's on your horizon?
Speaker 1:Well, my first is my PhD, which is a long-term thing. That's been. You know that's a massive undertaking. So this year is my year of research, now that my proposal has been approved, hallelujah. The second one is to do even more traveling. I have got a number of really wonderful work and life trips coming up. And the third one is to spend even more time with the people that I love. A friend of mine whose children have just finished high school had a lovely insight. She said I don't think it's hers, but I love it this idea that the days are long when you're raising children, but the years are short, and I think the days of work can be very long, full of stuff that is very rewarding and inboxes that are overflowing, but the years are short, and I think the days of work can be very long, full of stuff that is very rewarding and inboxes that are overflowing, but the years are short, and particularly the years with the people we love how true how true, nevin.
Speaker 2:thank you so much for sharing all of these things. Looking forward to talking to Dr Nevin very soon and, with that said, one of my very favorite topics, favorite subject in the corporate world, is around culture, and no better person than you to talk about some of these elements of culture building and lessons learned through this work that you have done around culture. How do you define a healthy culture and what, according to you, are some of the key indicators of such a healthy culture, organization or a team?
Speaker 1:It's interesting. Maybe I can define a healthy culture by defining the opposite, an unhealthy culture, where I remember working once with organization and they used the Barrett framework, which is essentially about levels of awareness and levels of values. I don't have to go into the whole detail of the methodology, but essentially it's about your personal values and the degree of evolution of them, how you experience the organizational values and then how you would want the organization to be. And I remember when the consultants showed us the results of the organizational-wide survey because I was working, not as a consultant, I was in the organization at the time and what they showed was the level of evolution of people's individual values was higher than the level of the values that they experienced in the organization. And so I was trying to understand these results. But I thought, let me just check that I'm understanding what I'm understanding and I'm understanding it correctly, and I remember asking these consultants. So, basically, what you're saying to us is that in this instance, the whole is less than the sum of the parts. So, in fact, people are more evolved, have higher order values than what they experience at work. So they come to work to be less than they come to work to reduce themselves. They come to work to experience an absence of fulfillment and enrichment and values than they would otherwise experience.
Speaker 1:And I said, yes, that is what we're saying. And I thought, oh, that's heartbreaking. That's absolutely heartbreaking, and isn't it the most primary example, the most salient example of what we can so often see, where your compensation, your remuneration, literally becomes compensation for all the things that you've given up? So people are coming here purely for the gold and the handcuffs, because the benefits were huge, but they've checked out, they've switched off a part of their head, they switched off a part of their heart, because they're here and they're less than, and so I think that is a very unhealthy culture. It's not overtly toxic, it's not overtly destructive, but at the level of human potential, at the level of discretionary energy that could and should be unleashed, none of that was happening. I think that is desperately unhealthy and desperately sad.
Speaker 2:And what's your take on creating long-lasting cultural change? If this is what it is to create a good culture, what are some of the things to kind of create a long-lasting culture?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, a long-lasting culture can, of course, be a long-lasting destructive culture. It just churns through people, I think. A long-lasting cultural change, well, that's the million-dollar question, right, because culture chains are notoriously difficult. I think, for me, the insight, the data, the reality that drives me in all the work that I do, be it the politics, be it leadership, be it storytelling, it all boils down to the fact that we've got two things in opposition, two realities that are dissonant. The one is the fact that, if you look at the Gallup Global Engagement Survey, the majority of people around the world are disengaged. Actually, the engagement is what? About 20%? Most people come to work and have actually just completely checked out. So we're paying for people that are going through the motions if that and I think the last global engagement survey said that the level of disengagement was 79%, so that's unchanged and undisputed. But, on the other hand, you've got all manner of evidence and research that says the majority of adults, if we were to become financially independent and so we didn't need to work to pay the bills, 80% of us would still want to work. So there is something in us as human beings we want to contribute, we want to be part of something that matters. We want to be part of a team that does things that we can be proud of. And yet most organizations, most of the time, are just killing people. They're just wanting to get through their work their whole life and wait for it to be over. And so I think a culture comprised of leaders who care deeply about the people that work for them and you know, this is not just cupcakes and kisses I have fired people and I will fire people.
Speaker 1:A piece of advice I got early in my career is if you can't change the people, change the people. I think that's right, but of course, there's a big burden of proof on the if. Have you set clear expectations? Have you given feedback? Have you created the conditions? Have you held clear expectations? Have you given feedback? Have you created the conditions? Have you held people accountable? Have you given them the support? Well, if you've done all of that and nothing's changed, you need to get rid of them.
Speaker 1:But leaders who deeply care about human potential, who deeply care about the organization they are part of, who deeply care about the purpose of that organization and who embody that in what, not just what they say, not just the values on the wall, but in what they do and who they are, because, frankly, what you are doing speaks so loudly I can't hear a word. You're saying this is how you build culture and you start that as a leader. But for me, I've always known my leader. My leadership responsibilities had been met when I was no longer pushing the stuff and I was no longer pushing the strategy. People were pulling it and people were creating the culture in myriad ways I could never have imagined or asked for, but it was all in pursuit of what we were trying to achieve. So I think that's how you try to get, get it right, which, of course, is neither simple nor easy you did touch upon that element.
Speaker 2:I will reiterate that particular piece is what do you see as ingredients of a thriving culture and what are the traits of a leader in that driving culture?
Speaker 1:that thriving culture, a thriving, positive culture, is one where people are more than they would otherwise be in who they are, in what they do, in what they're able to achieve, in the support and feedback that they get. It's like Liz Wiseman says in her book multipliers they become more in ways that couldn't have been expected or understood. And you don't just get the most out of people who are producing widgets, you get the best out of them in ways that can surprise them and you. I think that's a thriving culture and it's ignited and catalyzed by leaders, but it then takes on a shape of its own and it takes on a life of its own, and the culture is embodied and felt in how people show up at every level, in every way. So yes, it's demonstrated by leaders, but it's actually demonstrated by everyone. I think that that's what it is People become more than who they or anyone else thought they could be.
Speaker 2:And for the leaders.
Speaker 1:I suppose I would say similarly for me when you know your job is done, because people are pulling this where you don't need to be needed, because you don't need to control. People are thriving, people are flourishing. To go back to our earlier conversation you've created the conditions and then the the kind of manifold, magnified magnificence of people starts to take hold.
Speaker 2:So the gardener can go to a different garden and make it all over again.
Speaker 1:Exactly, or lie in the hammock and be proud of what they've achieved and look at this and think isn't this wonderful?
Speaker 2:It is wonderful If we can build that kind of an environment where the culture thrives, the politics is great and everybody wants to kind of just not do. Fulfilling well, but beyond is what our dreams are made of.
Speaker 1:And I've experienced it a few times in my career. So it's not a pipe dream. I think it's certainly aspirational. I don't think it's, like I say, either simple or easy, but it is possible, and those times have been the most rewarding times of my career, when people surprised me and themselves and I was actually no longer needed because I'd catalyzed something and they were running.
Speaker 2:yeah, I think that's incredible and Nevin, if we were to kind of run all of this off and for everybody listening out there, if they were to kind of do one thing to promote a thriving culture, to promote non-toxic politics, what is that one thing that you would recommend people to do?
Speaker 1:I think, going back to the conversation we had earlier, to ask themselves the question that I was only asked in my 40s why should anyone be led by you? And and let's be really clear, being led by you is a totally different thing to complying with you. I'm not saying they're mutually exclusive, but they are different. You know, when I comply with somebody, it's a rational thing, it's risk and reward, it's carrots and stick Fine, I'll do it. But compliance can be grudging. Compliance is just going through the motions. But when I follow you, when you are leading me, I choose. That. That is an emotional investment, doesn't mean I agree with everything and hopefully you don't. I need all the thinking I can get, so disagree with me, feel invested enough, safe enough to disagree with me because we've got each other's back.
Speaker 1:So when somebody is following me and I had this experience years ago in a leadership program where it was an equine therapy, where you would stand in a ring and see, it was the most moving, visceral experience of leadership I've ever had.
Speaker 1:So basically, you stand in a ring with a horse. I mean, how big is a horse? A thousand kilos, 800 kilos? I don't know, they're huge you stand in a ring with a horse and basically you try to make that horse move and the horse does not move. And I mean it's a whole process that you go through until something in you changes and that horse chooses to follow you. And it's 15 years since I did that, but I can still remember that profound feeling of astonishment when this horse chose to follow me. I wasn't going to make that horse move until it wanted to, and when it wanted to, because of how I was showing up, I cannot tell you what a profound effect it had on me, and so that's why I talk about compliance is not followership, and telling is not leadership. Again, they're not mutually exclusive, but they are profoundly different things. That horse choice to follow me.
Speaker 2:I think those are definitely definitely profound words out there. Choose a leadership of being led, not a leadership of being compliant. I think that's the message in itself. Nivin, this has been one heck of a conversation. Thank you so much for putting your heart into it. This show is all about creating ripples of inspiration. We have shared tons of wonderful nuggets with me and my business.
Speaker 1:Before we sign off, any Inspire Someone Today message for me and my listeners- there's a lovely quote that I really enjoy the shortest distance between two people is a story, and I love that, and so, I suppose, as a storyteller yourself, yeah, thank you for the opportunity for me to share mine, to be part of yours and, you know, to maybe be part of people who we will never meet and never know be part of their stories.
Speaker 2:I think that's a profound privilege yeah, that's a privilege to be part of many of your listeners, to kind of have some kind of an impact, some kind of a say, some kind of an impact, some kind of a say, some kind of an influence in your thought process. On that note, nivin, thank you so much for taking time and sharing this wonderful conversation with me, and my listeners Appreciate it. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Inspire Someone today. This is Srikanth, your host, signing off. Until next time, continue to carry the repulse of inspiration, stay inspired, keep spreading the light.
