Divestment Generation Mini Series - Episode 3

This is Episode 3 of the “Divestment Generation” mini series, a five episode series exploring the 9 year campaign to win fossil fuel divestment at the University of Toronto! In Episode 3, creators and co-hosts Amanda Harvey-Sánchez and Julia DaSilva speak with “Third Gen” divestment organizers - those who were involved in the campaign from 2016 until 2019, ending around the start of the pandemic. Our “Third Gen” guests are Aniket, Evelyn, and Kristine. 

In our song segment, CJTO member Rebecca and participants from CJTO’s September 2022 Orientation lead you in the fifth and sixth verses of a special adaptation of the movement song  “Which Side Are You On?”, originally by Pete Seeger. Stay tuned for further episodes in the “Divestment Generation” mini series to learn the rest of the song! 

This mini series emerges from Amanda’s doctoral research with CJTO, a two-year ethnographic community-based participatory research project tentatively entitled “Actualizing Everything: Affective Activism, Effective Politics, and the Future of Climate Justice Organizing in Canada”. 

Cite as: Harvey-Sánchez, A. & DaSilva, J. (2023). “Divestment Generation Mini Series, Third Generation (Ep.3)”. Climate Justice Toronto. 

EPISODE RESOURCES
UofT Fossil Fuel Divestment Timeline
Divestment and Beyond, Briarpatch Magazine Article (by Amanda Harvey-Sánchez & Sydney Lang)
Discovering University Worlds
This Changes Everything (by Naomi Klein)
The Leap Manifesto

SONG
Adaptation of “Which Side Are You On?” by Pete Seeger 

LYRICS
Does it weigh on you at all? [High]
Does it weigh on you at all? [Low]
(x 2)
Corporations raised you up
but we can make you fall
They picked a war with all of us
does it weigh on you at all?

SOCIAL MEDIA & CONTACT INFO
Amanda Harvey-Sánchez: Twitter, Instagram, email
Julia DaSilva: julia.dasilva713@gmail.com
Climate Justice Toronto (CJTO): Instagram, Twitter
CJUofT (formerly LeapUofT): Facebook, Twitter, Instagram
2185 Art Collective: Instagram

CREDITS
Editing: Amanda Harvey-Sánchez and Stefan Hegerat 
Original Music: Stefan Hegerat
Hosts: Amanda Harvey-Sánchez and Julia DaSilva
Guests: Aniket, Evelyn, and Kristine
Singalong: Rebecca and participants at CJTO’s September 2022 Orientation 
Producer: Climate Justice Toronto

Transcript

Episode 3 Transcript

This is Climate Justice Radio 

Amanda: Hello and welcome back to Climate Justice Radio, a podcast by Climate Justice Toronto. Climate Justice Radio is a podcast that covers a wide range of issues connected to climate justice. My name is Amanda and I use she and her pronouns. 

Julia: My name is Julia, I use she and her pronouns as well.

Amanda: And we'll be your hosts for the episode. 

Julia: You're listening to our Divestment Generation Mini Series, a five-episode podcast series exploring the nine-year campaign to win fossil fuel divestment at the University of Toronto. Be sure to check out the intro to the series, prior Divestment Generation episodes, and linked resources in the show notes for more information on the campaign.

Amanda: Stick around for the end of each episode, where we'll lead you in a new verse to a climate justice organizing song, an important community building exercise in CJ to organizing meetings.

Julia: in Episode Three of the series, we're speaking to divestment organizers who were active during the campaign from 2016, following President Gertler’s rejection of divestment, until the start of the COVID-19 pandemic and early 2020. Our guests are Aniket, Evelyn and Kristine. Let's have our guests introduce themselves. Aniket, do you want to get us started?

Aniket: Sure. My name is Aniket. I'm currently an organizer with Climate Justice Toronto, and I used to be with Leap UofT in the divestment campaign.

Julia: Thanks so much. Evelyn?

Evelyn: Hi, my name is Evelyn. I was a student at U of T between 2016 and 2021, and was part of Leap and Divestment and Beyond while I was there, and now I work for Banking on a Better Future, which is a youth-led nonprofit, working with students and youth to pressure banks to stop funding fossil fuel expansion.

Julia: Amazing. Thank you so much for being here, Evelyn. And Kristine?

Kristine: Hi, everyone. My name is Kristine. I use she/her pronouns, and I was active with Leap U of T from 2016 to about 2020. So basically the entire time I was at U of T. And now I'm working at a mapping software company.

Julia: Yeah, thank you all so so much for being here. Let's get started! Last October, President Gertler announced the decision to divest U of T's fossil fuel holdings. What was your reaction to the divestment decision? Anyone who wants to start can get us started here.

Aniket: Yeah, I was honestly quite surprised that Gertler decided to make the call there. I really wasn't expecting it to happen when it did. And it was pretty unprompted. But honestly, I think like, given the context, U of T was in it was it really goes to show that like, like activist pressure over a long time can have an effect when there is like a lot of pressure points going on. Like I think U of T was simultaneously getting flack for not divestment, not divesting, or there’s the whole like, Israel/Palestine incident in the Faculty of Law. And I think there was like, a sexual assault incident in like the Faculty of Music and maybe some other stuff, too. So like, just having pressure on the university or other institutions to do things, when they get really high, sure pays off.

Julia: Yeah, like a lot of the time, especially like during this like nine year campaign, it's like really easy to get a little lost and like, can be like really kind of with like, massive student turnover, like really hard to envision sometimes, like the actual kind of effects on the institution that this pressure is having. Maybe, Kristine?

Kristine: Yeah, I think my first reaction was like, this is a long time coming, or I have to organize like the prior campaign and our campaign going on for like four years. I think there was like a sense of relief and the kind of a sense that what we did at Leap throughout those years was—ended up being worth it. I know, there was a lot of like meetings where we were like, I don't know, like, where this is going or what's going to happen, so just like reading the announcement, and getting to celebrate with everyone was such an amazing feeling.

Evelyn: Yeah, I can jump in. I’ll just say that, I think, um, I think I remember feeling like the announcement was a little bit underwhelming, and I actually found out about it, because my friend at Divest McGill called me and said, like, is the news true? And I had no idea what he was talking about. But I think it was like a really sort of powerful moment, and sort of, like Aniket said, spoke to how, like student pressure works. And I know that in the statement, Gertler  references students, and thanks students for their advocacy work, and I remember that some, I think there was some student sentiment that that was a little bit patronizing, or a little bit sort of condescending, knowing how long people had pushed for that. But then I later spoke to someone at Stand.Earth, who follows these movements quite closely. And I think he had kind of - his feeling, that it was one of the only times he's ever seen a university address students in their commitment statement. And so he thought that was a very powerful aspect. 

Amanda: Yeah, that's really interesting and it definitely can be like a fine line with acknowledging the work that was done but then in a way that isn't patronizing, and I know that it can be, it can be difficult like a line to navigate for activists to know like when are we actually being commended in a way that we want to be? And when is it kind of like, oh, you kids, like, pat on the back kind of thing. We've talked a bit about like your reaction to the announcement last October but I kind of want to take us back to the beginning of your journey with divestment, whenever it was that each of you joined. Why did you get involved in divestment organizing? Was this your first experience organizing or did you come from a different movement background? What drew you into the campaign initially, like your personal motivations? 

Whoever’d like to jump in first.

Kristine: I guess I'll start. Um, yeah, I didn't really have any background with organizing prior to joining Leap and the divestment campaign. I was kind of just really into science as a kid, watched a lot of like Daily Planet and David Suzuki. So kind of came to the environment through that, kind of like childish, rose-colored glasses lenses. And when I came to UofT I kind of wanted to see what environmental organizing was like on campus, and broader. So I just was on the Ulife website, came across Leap’s page, read the description. I was like, I don't know what divestment is, but it seems cool, and it seems like a bit out of the box from like, what I was taught as a kid to like recycle or like use less water when you brush your teeth. So I think, coming and then I met with Julia, I remember at Sid Smith, and I was like if I get to organize with cool people like Julia, then I'll definitely be like joining Leap and the divestment campaign. So I think that's what drew me into the divestment campaign, just kind of going beyond like our childhood expectations of environmental organizing, and being able to meet a lot more people through divestment, rather than like just joining a club where we just tell people to recycle.

Amanda: What about you, Evelyn?

Evelyn: I would say I also got involved very much through just knowing Julia, I think we were in residence together. And so I'd spoken to her about some of this work and thought it was a really, it sounded like really cool and important work. And I'd also just never thought about the way that money—I think I was very removed from climate and climate organizing, and I’d never really thought about, like what money had to do with anything. And so I think it really just challenged me to think differently. And I think at the time, millions of dollars of investments, or hundreds of millions were just like the most—the biggest sum of money that I could conceive of. And so it seemed like a really big kind of betrayal that this university that was supposed to be here for me and for my fellow students was putting all this money into something that was putting our futures in jeopardy. And so I was like, very much on the periphery of it for a few years, and then got more involved later as I think I got a bit more stressed about the situation. But

Aniket: I think for me, I was never particularly interested in divestment stuff before I joined Leap. I think like what drew me in initially was actually the Climate Strike in 2019, and I remember that being a very large event and with a lot of attendees, and I was curious who organized the U of T contingent, which was Leap UofT. So I think I just emailed the group, and somebody was fortunate enough to induct me into them. But before that, I really wasn't terribly interested in climate stuff, because I had grown up in Alberta, so I didn't, I wasn't very sympathetic to a lot of like, like, yeah, like activist climate types. And it was only like, within the past year of 2019 that I started, like, changing some opinions of that after reading stuff by know Naomi Klein. So as for climate organizing, I was never really involved before Leap. So I think yeah, the divestment stuff just came along with being involved in a climate group but it wasn't the reason I joined the group

Amanda: That's so interesting. Yeah, like very different initial motivations, like with Kristine there's maybe like childhood understanding of environmentalism, and then with Aniket quite, quite different. And with you, Evelyn, was it kind of, yeah, like, where did you fit into that? Were you kind of like a climate-inclined person? or what was it about divestment in particular or Leap, maybe as in Aniket’s case? 

Evelyn: Yeah, I think it was, I don't think I was particularly like, climate inclined person. Also, like sometimes I joke that I remember in high school learning that the problem with fossil fuels was that we were going to run out of them someday. And that was like the big stressor, is that they were non-renewable. And so I think it was just sort of like becoming more and more as the climate crisis was so rapidly escalating, and also just sort of talking to Julia and hearing the story kind of behind a lot of what's, what was driving her in this work was really inspiring. And then I think, for me in terms of like, why divestment rather than other climate justice work is that I, like I majored in math, and I think I do well with numbers. And it just sort of like made sense to me as sort of an outlet that I could explore. 

Julia: Let's step back a little bit. Um, so Aniket, you talked about kind of joining, and there was this big kind of political moment around the climate strikes. And then Evelyn, I know that like, we were kind of when we were like, in residence together, in first year, like that was, I think, I remember us going to the Women's March together, because there was also that like, you know, it was like 2016. And like, that was a massive year of like, kind of political, like, well, obviously, political upheaval, but also of political awakening for a lot of people. So let's go back to that moment for a bit, because that's also the year that President Gertler a little bit before then had rejected the first divestment petition. So that moment, it's definitely shifted by 2016, from what it had been during the previous campaigns. So Trudeau had been elected for the first time, if we go back to those kind of young, naive days, he’d just gotten back from signing the Paris Climate Accord, this seems like a whole lifetime ago. And there was this kind of increasing mainstream support for concepts like the just transition, the Leap was just gaining traction at the time. Can you talk about anything that was kind of in your like, at the forefront of your mind during this moment, so whether that's the Leap, or personally coming into this work, reading, This Changes Everything by Naomi Klein, that was like, I know, a big moment for a lot of people. And if you joined later, maybe you talk about kind of at the moment that you joined, how would you describe the kind of core driving ideas behind your work in this moment in that kind of bigger context.

Aniket: It's funny that you mentioned This Changes Everything because that was actually the book that really pushed me off the deep end. And I think like finally, I mean, I had had for a couple of years leading up to 2019, like a lot of sympathy for left wing movements and politics in like following, I think the Bernie campaign in 2016, and Corbyn leadership of the Labour Party in the UK and also in Alberta, where I grew up out there was Notley's government where the NDP was elected. But I think it was really like a lot of those things becoming suddenly very prominent in like, those years leading up to 2019. As well as like, reading This Changes Everything and like, more seriously engaging with like, alternative possibilities for the future. Rather than just like, Oh, like this is all we can make do with and like, just have to accept, some things are gonna suck and they have to suck.

Julia: Yeah, I even I forgot to even mention Bernie Sanders and like this little intro, but like, now I'm thinking like, I remember like, I remember in early 2016, um, the first time I heard about his campaign, I was like, someone's, like an actual person is calling themselves a socialist, which is now kind of really almost mainstream. But it wasn't then, it was huge and surprising. I don't know if, Kristine or Evelyn, you want to build on that at all, or take us in any direction.

Kristine: I guess I could go, I have to admit that I have not read This Changes Everything yet. I feel like a bad Leap person. It's like on my reading list, because you guys talk about it so much. I just haven't gotten a chance to go around to reading it. But in terms of like, the core ideas driving my work, I think like, that idea that like the world doesn't have to be like this. I think I was very, like apolitical and complacent in high school. And it's like, well, yeah, as Aniket was saying, like they some things suck, and like some things get marginally better, but like, this is the way the world is and like we can't change anything about it. So I think reading the Leap Manifesto, I was like, wait, no, there's no way like the world can just stay like this. Like there's like stuff we can do to make it—like imagining an alternative world or like a better way of doing things. So I think like, after reading the Leap Manifesto, there's a really inclusive way that we can go about organizing that doesn't leave people behind. I think that was like the core idea driving my work.

Evelyn: Yeah, I also have not read This Changes Everything. So I'm also a bad Leap member. But I think like, I think everything sort of you touched on, like the 2016 election in the States, and then Trudeau like, I think I was sort of watching his time in office sort of unfold, and things weren't quite lining up with the sort of like the declaring of the climate emergency and then buying a pipeline and just sort of everything that was happening that was seeming a little bit out of sync with what was being said. I think, for me, like a big thing that really compelled me to get more involved in this work was like a few years later, and hearing Winona LaDuke came and spoke at U of T as part of the Divestment and Beyond Coalition. And I think I was just really moved by the way that she approached this work and how broad it was. And now she's very much somebody I think, who's like, been a real leader in the divestment movement, but has so much reach throughout other sort of climate justice and environmental justice advocacy work. And so I think I was really inspired by her. And that was kind of what compelled me to get more involved.

Amanda: Yeah, so interesting to hear, like, so much happening in this moment with, like, Bernie, with Trudeau with different sides of the political spectrum there. And then, of course, Winona LaDuke, This Changes Everything. I noticed even earlier, Evelyn, you had mentioned, like “oh, divestment, or other climate justice work.” And so like seeing divestment as part of this broader like climate justice fight. And that is one of the things we're kind of interested in unpacking in this series, is the emergence of climate justice as this kind of like core framework or lens that a lot of climate activists, especially maybe even young climate activists, and organizers use now. So that's something we were wondering if you could all speak to a bit is like, first, what do you see as climate justice? How do you define it? And then secondly, like when you came into Leap and divestment, was climate justice already the kind of assumed or default framework to talk about climate change, to organize? Or was this kind of a new, unique lens? And if it was, like, were there, like, I know, I've given you many sub questions here, but like, do you remember like specific venues or workshops or rallies or readings what be it that where you were introduced to climate justice as a framework that maybe we can start big like, like, what do you see as climate, climate justice?

Evelyn: I can start by saying, I think on a really sort of, broadly, I think climate justice is about not just seeing climate as sort of like a numbers game, thinking about emissions and emissions levels and emissions reduction targets, and it's more about people and planet and looking at a really micro level, the way that the climate crisis is impacting people and ecological systems everywhere. And taking all of that into account. When I got actively involved in Leap and Divestment and Beyond, I think by that time, it was pretty clear that divestment was—had pretty well aligned with demands around climate justice, I think it was like seven years into the movement or so. And I think it was like after the Shut Down Canada movement, so I think there was a pretty strong narrative around Indigenous rights and solidarity with other sort of impacted communities. I think it was also after Standing Rock, which was really significant, and it was in the middle of the Line Three fight. And so I think by the time that I joined, there was a pretty clear discussion around how this impacts sort of frontline communities. But I do think there's still work to be done there, like the divestment movement did come out of sort of, from the 350, sort of white-led NGO, and I think it still does kind of get caught up in being sort of a very white-led movement.

Aniket: I think for me, one of the things that is probably a bit different than a lot of climate folks is, I made that joke whenever we like talk about environmental things that you could like put a gun to my head and I wouldn't be able to name five flowers. So I'm really bad when it comes to all of the environmental things. But I think like, so I don't really have a rigorous definition of climate justice. I think for me, it's really just that it ties into a broader notion of building like a fairer and more just society, and I think it's been very useful that over the past several years that there has been this kind of like, critique that is uniquely climate being built up, like the way we run our society, and the way we focus on profit and extraction. But I do also think, in the very recent few years, that you kind of have been seeing a larger convergence of a lot of these different like x-justice things on to like a broader, more like, yeah, like a society built for everyone rather than just a handful of people. So maybe, like it felt unique at some point. But I think, like, the tendency nowadays seems to be more towards just building a society for all, which I think is quite healthy, because a lot of these problems are very intersecting with each other. Like, you know, when we talk about, well, where is fossil fuel pollution most affecting people, it also comes down to like, who is what countries have been able to emit the most and make the most development gains off of that? And why have they been able to do that? Well, you have a colonial history here, and it goes on and on and on. But at the end of the day, you see, like things—propositions like the just transition or Green New Deal, which are very much focused on the whole of the problem, rather than some portion of it, and I think that's a pretty good tendency that left wing movements are moving toward now. 

Amanda: Kristine, do you want to add anything?

Kristine: Yeah, I don’t know if I have a good definition of climate justice. But I think when I started organizing with Leap, we didn't really put a name to like the framework we were organizing with, but I think just through the issues we cared about beyond divestment, and like the type of people we had, it just became the framework. And then once we started talking about it more, it was like, yeah, we're definitely a climate justice group. So I think I had, I had never heard the term climate justice before organizing with Leap. So I think to me, it felt new, but maybe to others, it really didn't. But it just after having conversations and you know, teaming up with organizations like 15 and Fairness, with labor organizing, and also a lot of, you know, labor unions at U of T, it became something where it was like, yeah, like this climate doesn't really just, it's not a numbers game, or it just affects like, environment and like catastrophic events, but it affects like people's day to day lives where they can't go to work now or like they don't have a home. So I think looking at those micro level interactions also helped us kind of define what Leap was.

Amanda: Yeah, and I think another thing I'm picking up on, like, all three of you have said in your response to this question but also just throughout is like the, the vision of an alternative, like that seems quite um - yeah I don’t know that’s a nice thing I’m hearing in your responses is that it’s not only about like the problems but also like the solutions. 

Kristine: To like not fall into doomerism. We all we've all had to be like, there—there's a better future than this. Or yeah, it's just like, turning your imagination to that better future,does take a lot of work to get to, I think, because you can easily fall into, well, things suck, and they'll never change, and there's nothing I can do. So I think having that alternative future in mind is really important for organizing. 

Amanda: for sure, for sure. Do you feel like being involved in climate justice and divestment organizing, like helped you with that? Like, I know Evelyn also, you said earlier that like, as you got more stressed, you organized more, like, did that—did that help with your stress?

Evelyn: I think—so I think in my case, like I had, I think it was like late 2019, I was like climate change seems to be getting worse and not better. So I think I'll maybe really need to do something about this. And then I got particularly stressed, I think around the COVID 19 first lockdown, and I think there was actually a Leap webinar, that maybe Kristine and Sydney organized. Do you remember that? On COVID, and it was like about illnesses and climate change and, and so then I like I watched that and I'd read up on it and sort of read about the intersection between all of these crisis's that we're seeing unfold and I was okay, I really have to do something about this now. And so I think that was really what compelled me to get involved. And like a really serious, committed way, in a way that I hadn't done before. What was your question? Can you remind me?

Amanda: Oh, just if the if organizing, it helped with your stress around climate crisis.

Evelyn: I think it did. Yeah, I think it did. I think that like—and sometimes, yeah, I think it definitely helped because it's sort of like, there's so many hopeful aspects of it. And like, I've definitely learned a lot about, like you said, these alternative systems and have a much clearer vision in my mind of like, how you build those up, as well as like stopping the harm. So I think that that has been really helpful.

Julia: Yeah, another thing that I'm kind of picking up on is there's this, this interesting—I’m not sure exactly how to say this. But on the one hand, like Kristine and Evelyn, you're both kind of picking up on this, like climate justice is, involves this kind of focus on the micro in the sense of like our kind of immediate relationships, maybe, the way that we like build like movements from those like kind of immediate relationships. And then Aniket, you're also talking about like climate justice as this as like part of this kind of tendency on the left towards kind of viewing things as part of a whole rather than, say, kind of these like, maybe isolated or kind of individual campaigns. On the one hand, it's very micro focused, in one sense, but also this like real kind of sense of maybe, like solidarity or interconnection. Holding that in mind, I think that kind of brings us into the next question we have here. Given this kind of broad context, this like worsening climate crisis, and you know, 2016, President Gertler rejects the first divestment petition. Why did you feel it was important to pick up this specific campaign divestment organizing in the aftermath of that rejection? Why was this kind of the piece that felt important?

Evelyn: I touched on this before, but I think there was like a definitely a feeling of like betrayal, the university had the opportunity to do something and to take a really public stance and really public statement. And to turn that down, especially kind of knowing the way that they did that. It just felt very much like a betrayal or like they were sort of going against what was best for their students. And I think sort of one of the strengths of the divestment movement is that in theory, the university is there for students, and in practice that's debatable how well that comes across. But I think that that makes the demands really clear and really easy to understand. Whenever people ask me sort of why I got involved, its just because I got so concerned about the climate crisis, and because divestment was the first thing that was presented to me as something that I could do about it, that felt like it would make a real impact.

Aniket: I think I also kind of have the same feelings as everyone here. Like I’d said earlier that like, divestment in particular was never really this like, massive thing on my mind that I was particularly interested in, it just so happened to be that, like, at the time of the climate strikes, and at U of T where I went to like Leap U of T was just happened to be one of the more well organized groups on campus, and seemed to be more involved in trying to get like some concrete victory. To be honest, at the time I joined, I hadn't been aware that there was like a campaign before that, that was basically shut down by Gertler. So yeah, it was just really what seemed to be best at the time. 

Kristine: Yeah, I think, to me, felt important to pick up divestment organizing because I think with the political moment, there was still a lot of chances to put pressure on the institution to divest. I know, throughout our time, at least, like a bunch of different universities of all sizes divested. So that kind of gave us leverage, where it's like U of T claims to be like this progressive utopia for students where like, we're always, we're always there for our students. But then, like, you see them like not divesting or like, even with previous divestment campaigns being one of the last universities to divest. So I think like kind of exposing that contradiction of U of T was also important in my divestment work. And yeah, I came from a family where it's like U of T is like the best school that you can go to, so other than like, actually being at U of T, I think it felt more important to me to like, prove to my family that U of T is not like this awesome school that you can go to and like your future will be set. So I think that yeah, those were the two most important things for me to like to get involved in divestment.

Julia: Yeah, it's almost like the fact that the rejection had happened kind of provided this other point of intervention where it was so—it was almost like too easy to point out the just hypocrisy of the institution. And we spent so much time talking about how they released that report called Beyond divestment despite and, you know, not having divested.

Evelyn: Maybe just to build off of that, like another reason that it felt so apt to get involved was just the clear greenwashing that they had chosen as an alternative to divestment like, I think, like you said, the Beyond Divestment report, like what does that even mean? And just the questions emerged of like, why can't they do all the things they say they're going to do on that report and divest from fossil fuels? And it was just like, very clear that they had made the choice that we're going to sort of choose an approach that makes it look like we're doing something rather than actually doing something

You’re listening to Climate Justice Radio, a podcast hosted by Climate Justice Toronto. We are building an irresistible movement to confront the climate crisis by addressing its root causes: capitalism, colonialism, and white supremacy.

Amanda: Yeah, I think you've all really highlighted in different ways, like how the campaign—it is a kind of different campaign post- when you've already had one rejection. And so I'm interested a bit in like, what your strategy was, at that point, like picking up this campaign, in the aftermath, and specifically like strategy regarding how you interact with the institution of the University of Toronto? Like, what's your relationship with with U of T? How do you understand a strategy of divestment when you've already had this rejection? And like, how do you even like, pick up from there? Like, what tactics are you using in that context?

Aniket: I think one of the like, most effective things we probably did, and I don't want to say we were like this extraordinarily organized, disciplined group, because we were not, but I think, like, exposing that kind of hypocrisy was really useful. And I think we were a bit lucky at the time that we were doing that because I think in 2017, 2018, 2019, is also when there was a lot of prominence of coverage about like the mental health crises on campus, and like the series of suicides, which really just starkly highlighted, how much universities being the supposed public, good-for-society institution, have really, over the years because of neoliberalism shifted towards being oriented towards like profit, and being oriented toward, like, what is the most market suitable thing. And at that same time like that, while we were also kind of exposing this hypocrisy, while many young people were getting themselves aware of the climate, many people are also intimately aware with the fact that like the University, was not so inclined to care about mental health on a large scale and address those issues as well. So I always think that's just like a good tactic for like exposing, like the kind of two-facedness of people with power. Like, you just, like, highlight what they claim to be doing, and at the same time, show people what they're actually doing. I remember, I think Amanda was telling me at some point how well, Meric Gertler, there was like a joke in the student body, but like, they're actually worried about this, you know, which is very funny, but it does have its effects. And like, we started off this interview with saying, like, when there's a lot of things going on, and there's a lot of pressure on the university for several different things like something's gotta give. So.

Julia: Yeah, thank you for bringing up the kind of the Mental Health sit-ins as well, and I like remember that the climate strike was that fall right, and like, I like there was this kind of, this coalescing coalition around that time that was talking about like the university as a site of extraction both in terms of like extracting, like by, you know, investing in the fossil fuel industry, but also kind of contributing to like this extractive economy by like, you know, teaching us to be like, like good citizens to be extracted from, to the detriment of like, literally everyone. There was like this horrible, like coalescing moment in like student organizing at UT.

Amanda: What about you, Kristine? How successful were you in convincing your parents that UofT is not the ultimate institution?

Kristine: I think I was pretty successful actually, like, my mom started attending a bunch of our online webinars and we would have discussions about them after and she would be like, wow, like, I didn't know, like your school was like this. So I think those were like, you know, forward-moving conversations and like opening up those conversations is really hard sometimes, especially with people like you want to be close to, but I think me and Julia always talked about this, it's like, would you rather have a genuine relationship with conflict with people rather than like a surface level, you know, just don't talk about the things that matter to you, and everything will be fine? So I think like, that helped. Yeah, I think with the institution, I think one strategy that we had was like, trying to do it at the college level, rather than going back to like maybe the Board of Governors and being like, can you divest again, I think we were a bit more successful in getting through to like, college administration, like, for example, Victoria College, we did, were able to sit in, in their board meetings and you know, have direct contact with people on their board, even though like they kind of would brush us off. But I think getting to the college level was a bit easier, and maybe a bit and helped us inform our strategy with like, how to approach the general UofT Board of Governors. So I think that was really important.

Aniket: One thing that was related to that we also did, and I remember now is we also spend a lot of time going around to different student bodies and student groups and getting them to endorse the university divesting, which I think gave it more of like a broad front in the student body. Like I remember, our main students union eventually moved to endorsing divestment, several different, like student, college councils, whatever they're called, also endorsed it, coalitions on campus also endorsed it. So like, it was increasingly this kind of like, wide, all-university pressure, rather than just like a couple of environmentally inclined groups on campus pushing for this.

Amanda: And do you feel like having also, like the climate justice frame, did that help in? Like, how you were pitching it to other groups? Or where were you like we were using that in your messaging? Or was it like, oh, really focused on divestment? Like, did you make that connection when you spoke to other groups?

Aniket: Not so much, but I think that's because a lot of people we were speaking to were already quite sympathetic to that kind of framing. Like, most of the time, we were speaking to people our age who were in like the kind of university world already and quite sympathetic to like, all things, climate change. So I don't think we needed to bring it up, because there was probably some level of mutual understanding there. And as well, like, dislike of the kind of hypocrisy of the university. I would imagine that like, if we'd had to bring it up more with like administrators and older folks, then perhaps it might have been useful, but different circumstances.

Amanda: Maybe we can actually move into another question we wanted to ask you was about other student groups that you've worked with? So like, what, what, what groups in particular, were like part of the coalition you were building? Were you even trying to build a coalition? Or was it more around, you know, get an endorsement, and then, like, continue organizing with Leap? So yeah, like, what was the kind of host of people who were involved at this time?

Aniket: I mean, it was kind of half and half. I think, like, there was definitely some groups that we really just wanted an endorsement from, say, like UTSU, like the main students’ union. But I do remember, we also spent a lot of time trying to kind of build a broader progressive coalition on campus, like one of the things we did at the start of the 2020 academic year was we built this kind of like, like, I think we hosted like a progressive clubs fair online, basically. But like those kinds of things are very useful because they, they also bring together all of the progressive groups, they establish contacts between everyone. And they also bring a lot of people who might be interested in one cause to be also interested in other causes or bring visibility to those causes. And I think that was useful when we were reaching out because we would do like divestment trainings and ask like these groups to also put divestment on their platforms, even if they weren't directly related to the environment. So like the side effect there is that it was just brought up in different places from different groups rather than just the environmental side of like activist or student union groups on campus.

Amanda: What about Kristine and Evelyn? Were there other student groups that either of you were directly or indirectly working with?

Kristine: I think a big one at the time was 15 and Fairness, I know we did host, like we did co-host a couple of events with them. And we would also like, go out and sign petitions with them. I think like having that intersection of climate and labor was really important in pushing our messaging forward. Because I think with labor organizing, it's really, I don't want to say easy, but it's really kind of obvious for people, that like your labor conditions suck, and there's things you can do to, you know, make them better, like with like unionizing, or asking for better wages, or like just better treatment at work. So I think partnering with 15 and Fairness at the time was really important for us to kind of become more well known across campus, because 15 and Fairness did have like a much larger reach than us. So I think that partnership was one of the defining moments that would say, for me in terms of like intersectional, organizing.

Evelyn: I think, when I got involved, it was right around the time that the Divestment and Beyond coalition formed. So that was not a student group per se, but it was student, faculty and labour. And I think I found that to be like a really valuable space to kind of hear from all aspects of the unit, or “all aspects,” sort of in quotations, of the university, and hear from multiple perspectives and kind of be working to organize amongst, you know, labor, faculty and students together. I think I also got involved right around the time that the Divest Canada coalition formed, which I also found to be really valuable, because I think that late 2019, early 2020 period, U of T in particular, was leading on a lot of sort of cross Canada, greenwashing initiatives with other universities. So they've kind of led on the Uni Coalition, which was a bunch of universities got together, and were trying to push for corporate engagement, where you engage with the company instead of divesting from it. And they also released this corporate this charter, where they had a bunch of universities sign on kind of pledging to use environmental social governance factors, which were kind of recognized as greenwashing and to be pushing towards, like carbon intensity reductions, which tends to kind of err on the side of that number, just a numbers game rather than anything meaningful. And so I think that that was like a really important push, in terms of kind of all of these student groups across Canada are coming together to push back at this on these universities that we're trying to kind of band together to stand firm behind not divesting.

Julia: Evelyn, you've actually segwayed perfectly into our next question, which is: so you know, for earlier, especially, divestment generations, kind of the relationship with 350.org in particular, is obviously like critical, and like very strong. I think that was definitely, I'm sure, like less the case, specifically as the years kind of went on. So I'm curious about how any of you would describe your relationship to external groups like 350, or the Leap? And then did you have a sense that there was kind of a mothership or an overarching movement? And how did that maybe shift with, say, the formation of the Divestment and Beyond coalition or the Divest Canada coalition?

Evelyn: I can say that I had no idea what 350 was, until really late into this work I had, I just didn't know about them. And I think Bill McKibben, people were talking about him and I was like, “Who's this guy? like, he's, he seems really exciting”. And so I think by the time I got involved, it felt just like a really decentralized really, very student led movement, which I think is positive. Like, I think that's a really good thing that sort of the NGO involvement kind of disappeared, and it really was just led by students and student organizers. And I also think that like, there was a push on that time to kind of to, like actively separate from 350. Like, I know, around the time that I got involved, CJ UBC, at the University of British Columbia changed their name from UBC 350, to Climate Justice UBC. And so I think there was like a push to kind of recognize that, like, yes, this was maybe started by 350. But it's really the work has been done by students. And that should be sort of like, where the focus is. And also there's like an alignment with climate justice there more than sort of NGO campaigning.

Amanda: That's interesting that like, 350 was so peripheral, like for Kristine and Aniket, were you like at all aware of the, like the previous relevance of 350? Or was that kind of very much a background condition?

Aniket: Not really, I mean, I think we had always make this joke of like contacting—we'd call them Big Leap Central. But they weren't very relevant to most of our work and I think like even towards the end of our campaign, like the group itself disbanded, like it was just this kind of like larger NGO sphere and not like too too rooted in the kind of like movement upsurge that had been like building over these past few years. Which is not to say like it had no part and like getting that started, but I think it also just goes to show like the kind of like, you know, white collar NGO types, they can have their value, but it really comes down to like the grassroots organizing to keep things going and actually push things through. 

Julia: Yeah, I remember that was in 2020, that the Leap, like formally disbanded and it was like, oh, like Leap U of T outlasted the Leap. I think in 2016, would have been, like, for me, at least kind of unimaginable. Like the Leap felt like big and everything. So it was really cool that like, by the time that happened, that it was like, oh, but obviously this kind of student organizing is going to continue and it like didn't actually matter what was happening in the like, the NGO world. I don't know if you have anything to add, Kristine.

Kristine: Yeah, I think not much. Aside from Aniket and Evelyn said, but like, they we were kind of removed from 350 and Leap, like, we knew they were there if we needed certain resources, or certain, you know, like, tech-like things that we needed from them to like, promote our events. But I think like day to day organizing, like they're, what they kind of stand for, wasn't really like we didn't, we didn't have to follow their strict models or organizing or like follow their principles, which I think was good, because, you know, organizing on campus is a lot different than like NGO white collar organizing. So I think it was nice to have that freedom of defining what leap is and defining what we do. On the student grassroots level.

Evelyn: I was just gonna say, I think also like you referenced the Divest Canada coalition. And I know I already spoke about that a little bit. But I will say that I think when that formed, we launched with an open letter that basically every student divestment group that we could reach in so-called Canada at the time signed on to pushing back sort of saying, divest from fossil fuels, and reject false solutions, and then invest in the good. And I think that was sort of an interesting moment, because like I said, I think obviously, the seeds of divestment were kind of planted by 350 way back, but then it just did become very decentralized and very student led and kind of snowflaked out on its own. And I think it was also sort of interesting to see, or in hindsight, it's sort of interesting to think about the Divest Canada coalition as this movement kind of re-centralizing, but in a way that's entirely student-led and entirely sort of meeting the needs of what students saw at the time has been urgent or important.

Amanda: Yeah, that's, that's so interesting, because there can be value in feeling like you're part of something bigger than just, you know, one, one campaign. But as you said, and Evelyn like it, it came, it came from a different place than as if, then the case of like coming in with models from an NGO, or, or something like that. I'm wondering if you can say more also on like, the divestment beyond coalition, like was that an important part or less important? Maybe also, for our listeners who maybe don't know as well, you could say what Divestment and Beyond is and like, what their membership is like, as opposed to Leap. 

Evelyn: So the Divestment and Beyond coalition came together—well, I mean, Julia can probably speak a little bit more to like how it came together, because I don't—I believe you were more involved than I was, but it was faculty, staff, and students, or representation from faculty and staff and students, coming together to think about sort of how do we up the pressure on U of T. The, I think it was around, it was 2019, after the climate strike, things are getting more and more urgent, and sort of thinking about how do we really push this and I think the name Divestment and Beyond was to play on that Beyond Divestment report that U of T released kind of claiming that they could do things that were better and “beyond divestment” without actually divesting. What was important for me, in that was that I think, one, it was really helpful to work with profs who had been around longer than me and would continue to be around longer than me and kind of maintain that institutional memory. It was really valuable in kind of understanding some of the greenwashing because UofT had put out, what do they call it, their carbon reduction report, and they were aiming to reduce the carbon intensity levels by 40% by like 2030, and reading and I was like, that sounds really good. And it was sort of a professor who explained to me that like it sounds really good, but if you think about what that actually means, and the way that they're measuring things in the math or doing it doesn't, it doesn't add up. I would also say that and I think just generally I got involved and then pretty soon after COVID the first COVID lockdown happened and I think just like being around profs who had a little bit more stability and weren't quite as like confused or frantic, or maybe they were but they were just really good at pretending not to be, like that was really helpful and keeping me a little bit more centered, so.

Julia: I feel like it was this really weird like weird and wonderful moment where you know Leap had been doing this work for a while, and kind of building relationships with like individual other groups. But then all of a sudden there were all of these profs and like all of these campus unions who were ready to like reorganize again, it was like this, you know, then like a few years of kind of, oh, we're like, we're holding down the fort. We're trying to re-strategize. And then this like energy kind of reemerged. And even now, it's like I, I, I'm struggling to piece together, in my mind kind of exactly how that that sequence of events went down. Yeah, so it was a wonderful moment.

Evelyn: I think it was also important to me and realizing like because of the involvement of unions, like I didn't know previously, that the “just transition” had come out of the labor movement, and had come out of like an attempt to make sure that we could transition but also make sure that labor and and workers were supported. And I think that that was also an important teaching, because I know that like it's again, that thing of like NGOs talk about it all the time, and it's sort of like did it come from NGOs? Or did it come from the workers? I think originally, it came from, from unions and from labor.

Julia: Right. Well, I think we have one more question just to bring us to the end here. If you had to share one key learning, or one key takeaway, that stuck with you from divestment organizing, what would that be?

Kristine: Don't be afraid to get involved. Like, even if you're hesitant to get involved, just like once you once you dive in, and kind of like you get that energy to just keep going at it. I was really, as someone who was like, doesn't have really a political background or organizing background, like I was really kind of a bit hesitant to get involved and was, like, I don't know how public facing I want my organizing to be. But I think once I started organizing, it was like, no, it needs to be public facing and I need to be like at the forefront of as much organizing as possible. So I think just don't be afraid to get involved and see what happens.

Aniket: Well one thing I really learned from being involved with Leap and divestment stuff is like I mentioned it earlier, but just like the power of a grassroots effort, even though it wasn't like this massive thing, like people on the ground, doing work, building coalitions, and reaching out to people is ultimately, what gets things done in the long term.

Evelyn: I agree with that. And kind of maybe building off of that I was thinking about this a little bit in advance. And I kind of had two things that I think are really important to note. And one is that I think one of the strengths of the divestment movement, and I think this kind of comes back to something I said earlier is that I got, you know, concerned about everything that was going on and divestment was kind of the first thing presented to me as something that I could do. And I think divestment, one of its strong suits is that it's a local target. And that's really important for training organizers to have a really clear local target that they can be working towards, so that they can kind of develop their tactics and develop their skills, and then go bring that into other organizing spaces. And then I think the second thing is just like divestment teaches us to think really critically about money and where money goes and what it does. And so we can divest from fossil fuels, but maybe some of those funds are being reallocated into mining or other sectors that are harmful. And so it kind of trains us to think really critically about well what does that mean. And I think it kind of comes back to the need for alternative systems and to be building up alternative wealth models and alternative systems and kind of putting money right into communities and climate solutions rather than into corporations.

Aniket: Just to add one more comment and I think like, what was kind of the flip side learning of being involved in divestment for me is that like, you know, these kinds of very issues specific particular campaigns can be very useful to get like a particular thing done. But just like Evelyn said, like, you can get that thing done and it can be turned right around on you and it really highlights the need for ultimately having a broader focus while being very locally rooted.

Amanda: Thank you so much to to all of you Kristine, Evelyn, Aniket. Julia as well, Julia was also part of this generation even though she's also hosting.

Rebecca: Hey it’s Rebecca, welcome back to the song segment of Climate Justice Radio. So the last two episodes we learned four verses of the song “Which Side Are You On?”, and I’m gonna teach you a couple more in this one. So let’s play the recording from our orientation. 

So the next part goes: 

Does it weigh on you at all? 

Does it weigh on you at all? 

(x 2)

Okay, awesome! And the last verse goes:

Corporations raised you up

but we can make you fall

They picked a war with all of us

does it weigh on you at all?

That sounds amazing and we’re almost done the song. Stay tuned for the next episode of this miniseries to learn the last part. 

Julia: Stay tuned for Episode 4 of the Divestment Generation mini-series, where we’ll be speaking with divestment organizers who were active during the campaign from 2019 until UofT announced that it will divest its endowment fund from fossil fuels in 2021.

Climate Justice Radio is brought to you by Climate Justice Toronto. This mini-series  features original music by Stefan Hegerat, and editing by Stefan, Amanda, and Julia. The creators and co-hosts of the series are Amanda and Julia. The singalong was led by Rebecca and included participants at CJTO’s September new member orientation. Special thanks to CJRU Radio and 2185 Art Collective for use of their recording space and equipment and to the Discovering University Worlds research team for funding to support editing.You can find all our socials, and a link to sign up to join CJTO at our website: climatejusticeto.com. The transcript for this episode, as well as other information and links mentioned in the podcast will be in our episode description. 

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