The Independent Artist Podcast

A Fresh Start for the New Year

January 16, 2023 Douglas Sigwarth/ Will Armstrong Season 3 Episode 1
The Independent Artist Podcast
A Fresh Start for the New Year
Show Notes Transcript

Each new year is a fresh start, another crack at that dream art show schedule. As working artists, we operate on sheer faith and determination while trying to stave off the insecurities that plague us. In this episode, we bond over what inspires us and reveal how we plan to reset our art practice in the new year. Join the conversation and share what's most important as the clock resets and we make our mark on the proverbial blank slate.
Visual artists Douglas Sigwarth and Will Armstrong co-host and discuss topics affecting working artists. Each episode is a deep dive into a conversation with a guest artist who shares their unique experiences as an independent professional artist.

Resource links from the episode,
Dolan Geiman Art Business Acceleration Grant
Business of Art Membership/ Cat Tesla & Julie Schumer
Learn Digital Marketing for Artists/ Marjolyn Vanderhart/ free course

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foreign [Music]
artist podcast sponsored by the National Association of Independent Artists also
sponsored by zapplication I'm will Armstrong and I'm a mixed media artist I'm Douglas sigworth class blower join
our conversations with professional working artists
that's a better picture of me than I look in person so I'm just going to go ahead and leave that up it sounds good
you're just afraid I'm going to turn it into like a social media post or something well I look like a little
worse off than the some of the people I've seen on the streets in Santa Fe so there you go look at my moving blanket
City you know I'd have to put claws over all the mirrors because not moving over the holidays and recovering is not a
pretty sight I tell you are you are you telling me there's more there's just more Doug to love for the new year my
belly is going to need to get a whole new zip code if I keep this up okay apparently you don't need as many calories sitting around doing nothing
than when you're like going glass and going to shows and all that good stuff very true I noticed that myself happy
New Year Douglas nice to see you on here it's been a few weeks it has been a minute hasn't it it has how are you
doing um I'm fine you know as the same to be honest just um I feel like I I burned
the candle at both ends most of the time just kind of balancing trying to make work and and raise kids and be a husband
that's the that's the routine right yeah well over the holidays do you kind of take a break from the studio and just do
everything that the holidays entail or do you kind of try and fit in studio days how does that work for you you know
I after one of a kind I typically will have like a a you know a custom piece or two that I'm trying to get done for the
holidays but I did not do that uh my folks came in right after one of a kind oh yeah and so we had Christmas here
with them that was great we geared up got the house all decorated and and had it had decorated a little bit early
because they still wanted to have their holidays at home with my my sister and the rest of the folks back on on the
East Coast by the time it was over though I don't know if you've run into this with multiple holiday situations
when they left I was like okay I'm done completely done I'm like I don't want to shop anymore I don't want to rap anymore
I don't wanna I wanna undecorate the tree and it's like December 12th the kids aren't even out of school oh there you go yeah yeah you've got to get
yourself mentally ready to gear up for multiple rounds I think I was a turd I think it was a turd for like a month I
just was like I was done with it and I'm like I don't know I you know me
in his finest I am here right yeah I'm not hiding it that's it's it just is
what it is so I tried to gear up plus my kids are like Santa doesn't exist anymore uh hey hey you might be doing
some spoilers here on the pot oh yeah spoiler alert Santa's me uh actually Santa is Steve harmston that's that's
who it is sorry spoilers indeed so um my kids are like they wanted clothes it's a
boring yeah 21 and 25 they want money oh yeah you do
it hand them some cash and they want money now too yeah okay I don't know it's boring I mean we had an amazing
Christmas my wife was incredibly generous and held it all together and we had an incredible trip after our
Christmas with my parents then we did ours here with the kids and then we went up to Minnesota and did it with our big
extended family or just a door yeah but it was a lot you know yeah it's not easy how about you good good I mean with what
I'm dealing with everything's low-key and so that was wonderful just to have
everything low-key but one thing that I wanted to bring up that a lot of us artists deal with is when we get
together with our kind of Normie extended families and we're the you know we're kind of the kooky artist in the
bunch you ever I mean where how do you fall on that group oh uh I don't know I
think I'm um yeah we could keep going let's let's see where you're going with this and I'll I love my family and I
love I'm not I'm not trying to you know everyone's been super accepting but they're a huge pain in the ass but thank
you so much advice they give you so much ignore me advice when for example what
am I going through right now I'm going through this physical condition and I'm hearing you know well hey have
you ever considered and when they started to say that my you know hair spikes on the back of my neck and I
think oh will would be ready to come out fighting when he hear that one yeah and the advice was have I ever considered
getting an employee who would blow the glass for me hmm okay and so you know I
did just what you did there I gave the okay like I'll I'll on the surface I'll
entertain this I this really great idea they have to make my life easier but
then as I start to explain well the nature of our business is it's all about handmade one-of-a-kind work made by the
artist themselves blah blah blah sure well then they get all defensive as if I'm like I'm somehow shooting down their
brilliant idea and why wouldn't I ever considered that how could you not consider that yeah you know why did you
get somebody to do the shows for you Douglas I want you to just hire somebody younger I said they could make it and
they could go do the show and then just give you the money and then just well that was the end part of this whole
story was at some point when they become professionals and they're making a boatload of money they will just write
me retirement checks for my training my ideas my mentoring every now and then
it'll come on board where like somebody will be talking online to be like have you ever considered selling your
business and I just don't think that that's a thing I don't think that exists for us anyway doing what we do yeah well
it's uh that's interesting I you know I you said well do you ever get any advice I'm like well no I don't and then you
thought of one well no I've just I've established the fact that I don't take it well and I found I was having a
conversation with my wife and she was like oh well I've already told my family not to give you advice she's just like
she's like warned everybody that that is a trigger a reaction he doesn't like that that's not going to be good don't
give him advice don't talk to him you're gonna be like she goes back to this problem you don't make small talk with a
volatile stranger right exactly right well I was the volatile Stranger in that uh in that conversation and it actually
made me think of my talk with Duke class and I don't know if the listeners remember this part where he says that
the trouble with some artists and do has a long career on the road as as of
course we all know he's been doing everything yeah at the beginning anyway he said what he's observed over the
years is the tragic flaw with some artists who do art shows is that they
don't know when to stop succeeding and that people don't know when to put boundaries around that moment of like
once you expand to needing a boatload of employees or whatever your business
model then turns into being a boss and it it kind of steps away from the creative aspect of it I'm not saying
that all black and white for everyone who wants to be a self-employed artist out there but it is a good point of kind
of staying at the right size to fit what your goals and intentions are yeah that's interesting you know I mean there
are people out there that have assistance you know when I lived in Richmond I had somebody I called her my
assistant she'd made all of my panels she did all of my shipping she did all of my uh bagged all of my prints too so
um you know there are some people out there be like oh my God he's not doing everything and it's like [ __ ] off that's
I definitely agree there are elements I'm wearing the plate for you like if you're if you pay somebody to sweep your
studio out so you don't have to do it at the end of the day so that you can actually make more work yeah more power to you I'm not against any of that and I
the thing that I learned this year that I loved was how can we I can't afford it yet but how can we go to the level where
you can actually have a relationship with with someone who can drive your work cross-country and all you do is fly
in and do the shows I mean that is a huge waste as some of those travel times
and the wear and tear on our bodies with sitting in a van for four days yeah it
would be an interesting show to just like have this conversation that you and I are having and then cut back to some
of the things like that Duke Lawson said just punch that in more editing for you Douglas no thank you yeah sure it's a
great idea oh it's just make it happen as evidence I buy this quote from dukelosset that's right I'm an idea man
no but like that does go back to like what uh Dolan and Ali Marie were talking about ali Marie is so on it she's as
much a part of the business as he is if not more and she's not wasting her time sitting in a van nope you know she's
flying home and taking care of of leads and and closing deals yeah swinging
deals and eating meals it's all within the norm speaking of the guy men's I noticed online and I messaged Dolan
about this and he gave me permission to talk about it they're doing a really cool thing they're kind of giving back to Young Artists they want to help an
emerging artist out there by offering a grant and I don't know all the details so
anyone out there who might be new in the business want to get a little assistance with mentoring towards the business side
of your artwork go on Dolan guyman's page on his Instagram that's where I saw it yeah if you go into his website or
his Instagram but I I really I was going to mention that myself so I'm glad you brought that up but I just I'm really
impressed with those guys and how they are giving back and doing the Grant and knowing those guys I I can't imagine
that it's just going to be a check it's going to be some advice too some mentoring type thing and yeah for sure
yeah so check that out get the details but I'll drop all that in the episode notes so when you're listening to the
podcast just look at the description and there'll be a link to their page for that yeah that's just Dolan guyman at
Dolan guyman that's d-o-l-a-n-g-e-i-m-a-n on Instagram you can find all the details and all the
links and and all that good stuff so um if even if you're just interested in looking at it it's something cool to see
yeah and I mean it might be good for any of us out there who feel like we are in
a place where we can give back that is a good way to give back that might be a good example for our an Initiative for
other art practices to to do the same thing you're going to go the other way and be like and uh I'm going to apply
because I as well I really need some Parental Guidance and I need some I'm
wondering if Dolan and Ali Marie will adopt me at this point I promise I'll clean my plate I'll clean up my room uh
I'm a good good son well speaking okay so this will be the this will be the plug section of the podcast I actually
have done something like that you got hair plugs shut the f up man
Razer is the way to go no um I decided over this break that I you know was
going to focus on business and focus on the you know Innovation side of since I have the time to do nothing but think
and learn and so I joined cat Tesla and Julie Schumer's business of art
workshops and I want to send out a plug for that if anyone is looking for a little bit of business side help with
marketing with just all around aspects of running a business they talk
about working with Galleries and working with shows and working on social media so I'll also drop the link for them on
our episode notes and you can check that out yeah please do that's exciting there
are a lot of our guests now that are kind of giving back yeah marginal and vandart's got a wonderful program as
well as cat Tesla and now Dolan and Ali Marie it's it's some exciting stuff happening so inspiration as far as uh
the new year goes and and what we could do to give back especially during tearing these trying times oh hey well
speaking of trying times they know we're entering a new year where we're looking at all the gloom and doom talk of
economy and stuff are you doing anything different with that talk are you going to just proceed as normal I just proceed
as normal I hate all this chicken little [ __ ] it's uh the sky is falling if we've been through it before we have and
might as well deal with it when it's face face front this is how I yeah Facebook I mean okay here is something I
I I am and this is our fellow artists are going to hate hearing this but I I
got more shows on the docket than I did last year okay it was all going to be smaller and and and bigger punch and now
I'm just booking everything I can we got the hamster wheel lined up for you do you yeah yeah I do I've got a I gotta
probably gosh six eight of them on the books and I think I only did six last year okay
well I was looking ahead to this year too with the with the kind of planning in mind thinking about last year was
half of what I would typically do and I think I found the Sweet Spot I'm pretty happy with right around 12 12 13. okay
I'm gonna go forward with with that but what is different is I started sooner in
the year last year so I'm gonna kind of have to you know slide my calendar here
more like April to November as opposed to what I did earlier in this in the
year this year yeah it's going to be a tricky year I'm booking a lot of the same shows that my ex is doing so we're
gonna have to juggle the kids somehow yeah you know so she's going to be at the same shows which is great but yeah
who raises the children but they're at a sweet spot too it'll be a little challenging for them they've got
grandparents and aunties yeah um right so I hope they've been have the aunties
been asked yet you're broaching that I don't listen to the shows
uh no don't [ __ ] the aunties uh the uh the pro you know nope nothing's really
been lined up yeah no I remember those days and I'm thinking back on you know
being a parent and and being in this business it is a little bit like and
forgive the reference I've been watching a lot of movies but it's all it feels to me like being in an episode of
everything everywhere all at once you know it's like you're standing you don't know you know that show do you know that
movie oh that one I don't know it is insane it's like it's Michelle Yao and Jamie Lee Curtis and it's like she'll be
standing in one space having a reality and then boom something else changes and you've got these these people coming and
trying to kill you and it's basically sometimes this business can be like that
it's like when I'm watching the movie I'm like yep that's like that's like being a Roadshow artist right there huh
interesting to check it out yeah it was really good but anyway so uh and so you're you're spending you're you're
biting your time in your little prison cell uh watching a lot of Netflix Amazon oh my God if uh if this uh artist
podcast doesn't work out well or if I sit on my ass too much longer it's gonna we're gonna be having to shift gears
into like a Rotten Tomatoes uh review uh podcast you know that'd be I thought
about that with like uh it's it's the independent artist podcast book club book of the month and we've already
talked about that David Byrne thing a number of different times yeah yeah um so when we were with Ben last episode
we kind of stumbled into the conversation about how sometimes art is
created with a venue in mind be it music or be like we create something like as an installation or
whatever and that's sometimes unconsciously or subconsciously that can
kind of float into the creating of it even though we think we're coming at it from a totally Clean Slate right yeah
you're coming into it with your own Inspirations but really you're thinking about um and this is where it made sense to me
and we're talking about David Burns how music works and it's it's really just a a small passage in the first couple of
chapters or something where he's talking about creating music for and I'm just re-touching on this before I get into
how it means something to me but yeah you know it's like you're you're creating these uh songs to be played in
a punk rock club and it's like okay well I'm creating my work to be seen on the
street and it's like it it definitely is going into these high dollar homes but it's being seen on the street and the
thing that got me I went up to see family in Minneapolis and one of my very favorite museums in the country is the
Walker living up there and going through the Walker and and walking around and and
checking out the different paintings and installations and what I noticed about all the pieces is I work fairly large
you've seen my booth I've got these six foot by four foot paintings or kind of my Norm I'd love to work a little bit
larger they're getting heavy but the interesting thing to me is like a good
portion of them are much bigger even than I'm showing uh in my booth because
I'm constrained by that Booth size sure you know that 10 by 10 and my little my Pro panels and my walls and also I've
noticed too is like as art show artists we're trying to get people's attention
because I've measured this before about a stride you know right it's it's two
and a half strides a ten by ten is two and a half strides and if you're not getting somebody's attention in that or
if your kid drops this milkshake or somebody says look over here or there's
somebody in your way it disrupts that two and a half strides so you're trying you're like look at me so my work has
very little negative space and I love the negative space in the installation
pieces that you see at the Walker yeah and I love that and and it's almost like
Prince used to say and I've heard so many different musicians talk about Prince said
the funk is not in the notes it's in the space between the notes Tom Petty said
the same thing it's like it's the Dynamics of the song is the space in between it that's what I'm going to get
at going into the new year how do I have more negative space within my work so
that my you mean within like the displaying of the work or within the work no yeah the display I mean Dolan
mentioned this too and it was a throwaway line where he said he vowed one year never to
have a painting on top of a painting like never stack it like let that let
that peace breathe so it has room around it so that you can actually enjoy it and
then how do you do that within that 10 by 10 sure how do you show that you know how
do you give your pieces breathing room and and you know you've got like very successful business models like take
NAIA board member Diane French you know her Booth uh looks great always looks
great has a super old school way of showing she's got stacks of stuff like
everything is shown all the time right you know and I think that that is a totally viable business model but I'm
just looking at how do I give my characters within my paintings
breathing room and also still be seen yeah at a show for me anyway if I have
one thing I want to have it represented in maybe a couple different colors or
Styles because it's like that you have that one shot and you always get the
well do you have that like anything else and you can have it in the back or whatever but it's like it's kind of like
it takes me back to our talk with Eric Lee on the first season of the Pod where
I mean he showed up with a freaking couch and coffee tables and I love that
and put out like flowers to give the Ambiance of what his work will look like
at home I mean the downside is we have to actually travel with all that stuff to create that that's yeah it was a huge
trailer and it takes you all the time to set up a living space right and all that but um he didn't do it forever no but it
definitely worked for him it's like how do you make that leap though so that you can create that that negative space that
it gets its proper focal point you know people need to be able to come by and be
like whoa but if there's so much going on around it if it's too busy there's too much for the eyes to bop around at
and the the star doesn't get its focal point right yeah it's really interesting to see different people's I don't know
their business models there was a guy I was next to at Cherry Creek where he closed his Booth if he had a big client
he had a big fish oh yeah I remember this yeah he put a chain up I'm like
that's ballsy or he needed a breather and was like I'll be open in 10 minutes and he goes and he's dusting his work
and he's inside and people are walking by like who's this [ __ ] like this is amazing but this element of you can't
come in now that but left you know what I mean if the audience wants to come in
it's almost like what I can't I can't oh oh I've got to come back and I've got to come back what's going on in there it
really it really piques the interest when you have to kind of put the brakes on somebody right I mean we are all like
we put the Taps on our toes and we're all like oh hello it's me and you try to do your thing I love that that different
version where you step back playing koi yeah play koi or you play in demand you
know you you like you create that kind of feeding frenzy and people are kind of like looking up and hey can I come in
we're like yeah give me five minutes I'll be I'll be right with you wow you're on the wrist I mean even you're describing that makes me a little
nervous I I I'm prone to being the what what can I do for you what what do you
need what are you doing okay you guys do you guys are very you and
Renee are are very uh attentive accommodating with folks that that come in and you there's a lot of this and
that and this and that with with your different color styles and you know what I thought you reach a point with that
and like even with like deal making where if they've spent enough time with you and they see that you've kind of run
through the ringer with them a bit we often get apologies like I'm sorry I'm doing this to you I'm sorry I'm like
this is what we do this is we want to show you what we make you know but then they do kind of cross a threshold where
the sale is inevitable it's just finding the right thing and it will happen and
if it isn't at the show it can turn into something that gets ordered or commissioned or something like that I
think that that eagerness does get rewarded at some point in that I agree I agree and it that reminds me of another
thing and this this goes into sales but when they say I'm sorry I'm doing this to you yeah I know I've got them yes I'm
like oh and that's where I close it and it's like oh I'm so sorry you're doing it and I'm like oh yeah baby you're all
mine like Ben fry we didn't get him to say this when he was on the phone on the on the podcast with us but when I've
talked to him about sales he he says this all the time he's like they are amateur art buyers and we are
professional art Sellers and so that's kind of like that's my move though like when they're like oh I'm so sorry that
I'm doing this to you you're like oh my gosh are you kidding this is like you said this is what I do and then they
start asking like well how would I even get it home and you're like look you just bought a really nice painting and they haven't even given me their credit
card right they start referring to the people oh I see so that's even like jumping the gun a bit but it oh it pushes I start referring to it as their
piece I'm like well your piece is so-and-so and like look you just bought a nice painting don't
worry about getting it home that's my job you know how's it going to fit in your car it doesn't it fits in my truck that's great and they're like oh well oh
you know they start feeling special and it's all about making them feel special and being liked well here's a new
technique I've never tried but again what I've been watching on on the old boob tube I watched The Bernie Madoff
documentary like four or five part series and he I think it was an interview they had with him or something
where he actually talked about how he could convince all of his investors to stay with him
was when he would ever be questioned so like you know they might say to him
you know um Can Can you show me how much I'm making here I'm getting a little nervous I think I might sell that his
reaction to them was to get angry and indignant and be like you want to cash out fine you cash out I'm gonna give it
to you but never come back again and he like insults them and says like they're not worthy to be part of his Investment
Group and they're like oh no no no no no no worries I I I'll stay with you no I don't want to cash out now and that's
how he thought that's how he kept that part yeah I mean it is a he's a that's a
manipulation technique for sure and it's like are we are we really looking to give the folks some some business advice from Bernie maybe I'm not advocating it
but I've seen a few people on the road who don't use honey they use vinegar to get their way and it works for them I'm
just saying it works for some of them yeah that's funny I can think of one who's who's really salty with this his
people pushes the line a little bit definitely but it doesn't ever bite him it doesn't seem to bite him in the butt
on it so no and I did the same guy uh does the same thing with shows too and he always seems to get in oh interesting
yeah all right be like Bernie Madoff I guess no don't be like for anybody like
Bernie don't do it but I will say I've had you know listening to the people who were victims
of his crimes I mean it's like it was part of our whole uh customer base down in like West Palm
Beach in Florida and all down in there it was it just literally feels like the people we talk to every single weekend
walking into our booths and in Florida south Florida that he sounded like those guys know that the customers who were
who were taken by by Bernie uh is our same clients oh yeah the Boca Raton area
and all of that that East Coast of Florida Southeast Florida for sure yeah they I remember that I remember they
really got hit and um that's that's crazy I don't know it's a smaller world than you think it is yeah
hey back to the kind of the whole new year's idea one of the things we we did in cats and Julie's as a kind of an
assignment was kind of a year review and I'm wondering do you ever do anything like that do you kind of look back over
last year and and see how it shapes your goals for the new year and what you want to do differently no no
[Laughter] I want more I just do it yeah yeah it's funny like what I think about this this
industry we're so I do actually I'm just I'm just messing with you but what I find is that unlike
a lot of other Industries I remember being you know when I had a job and
January 1st would roll around and people be like oh it's a new year and be like no it's not we're just it was a
continuation we're always doing yeah and it's it's like well with us uh it really
is a new year you know it's a new schedule you're moving things in you're trying new markets
um I do find that some markets get stale sometimes the show doesn't work out of
your schedule if you know what I mean that's our line when customers hear us say it didn't work out in our schedule
it means we got the goose egg on that jury yeah please F off again so yeah you never
know I mean you never really know what what show you're gonna gonna do or if a big one doesn't work out with your
schedule and you you have to you know you can't go there then how many shows does it take to make
that one up sure you know yeah does it does it take two to three more to to make up for that that
um Big Daddy whatever Clawson calls yeah oh the super shows yeah one of the super
shows I think about our year coming up and there are a lot of new players or
new puzzle pieces coming in that aren't completely brand new it's like you know how every year you say we we can craft
together a good season and that's ultimately our goal and I feel like some
of them aren't the same puzzle pieces that I did last year and my first reaction is fear but then it's like you
know what I rarely go back to a show that I've done let's say four times and it does
not repeat its success rate but I can have a similar success rate and maybe
even the same success rate if you look at the bottom line when I swap in these
other puzzle pieces and keep the collectors feeling like I don't know if
I'm going to see them next year this is the year I need to jump and so I am feeling optimistic and hopeful about
some new opportunities that I have coming on in the in the next year okay when do you think you're going to be back out there on the road I just phoned
in a cancellation for our first show because I got my boot on yesterday uh
people might be interested know about that yeah I had thought that when I got the boot on that it might take me a day
or two and then I'll just be walking around on this on this boot but man was I ever surprised at just even standing
on two feet and putting the lightest amount of weight on this foot how bad it hurts and how I'm not
ready and the doctor said oh no no no you won't be you won't be walking around
for about three more weeks and absolutely no studio for at least three to five weeks so that changed our plans
for for what our season's gonna be so like I said earlier it's gonna start later in the year and hopefully go into
later you know throughout in the year okay so does that have you looking at uh further down the line schedule like
September October or more when typically we we hang it up uh uh not necessarily
that's what I'm starting but I will extend now into into those months where
I might have because I'm gonna have to do this again only with with my left side and who knows maybe if if things go
well and I can make it through 2023 then I might put it this foot off to 2024 but
it's all like moving puzzle pieces you're going to be so prosperous looking process that's what I call when I'm
going to be looking robust yeah when I when I put on a couple of lbs and they're like oh man I'm look at my
Prosperity my Prosperity is showing okay well aside from the whole New Year's resolutions with our business and our
artwork my New Year's resolution was to hop on the spin bike starting next week since I don't have to stand on this foot
and start actually training so I can be on the on my road bike this summer but I
won't be able to do that now for another month and a half so that was something that kind of bumped me out too yesterday it's uh kind of stuck in limbo for a
while but I'll be okay I'll be fine Major League Baseball Star season starts in two weeks Baseball spring training
baby no Baseball playing for me my dad was the baseball player were you a baseball player by the way uh no not
much I played some but uh really just uh I'm just defined I knew you were a huge fan I was wondering if it came from
playing as a youth but my dad was the baseball player in our family and so of course I was put into into baseball as a
youngster and let's just say that I was a really good score keeper
did you did you fill the Box off oh damn I don't know anyone else out there who's more artistically inclined and less
athletically inclined but you know you get to the end of the season and and they they put pressure on these kids who
maybe haven't performed as well the whole season and they want him to have a win so then they they put them up at the
plate that was me put them up at the plate see if he can hit the ball and all this kind of stuff and it lean into it
Douglas [ __ ] humiliating man it's like the basketball game I don't want to be throwing the ball like I don't want
to just wait under the basket and have them throw the ball at me and that doesn't miss when everybody's eyes on
you so don't do that to your kids people don't do that
a hang tight we'll be right back this episode of The Independent artist podcast is brought to you by zap the
digital application service where artists and art festivals connect great news this application has extended their
sponsorship of the independent artist podcast into 2023. this is a podcast Douglas that you and I took on and it
started out as a replacement for the naia's newsletter and quickly morphed into something else it sure did it's
turned into a place where we can share our voices as professional working artists you know when we first took this
project on it was a pretty small potatoes kind of thing and as it has grown it has grown some serious expenses
so thank you to Zapf for helping us take a lot of those on and get these voices heard our tribe is resilient and the
stories are so fascinating so stay tuned for another season of interesting and
inspirational conversations on the podcast okay so back to what we were talking
about with uh with looking forward to the year I really am not going to put as
much pressure on the shows that I am hoping that what I've learned in the
last three years is that these other funnels of like installations or the The
Funnel of you know website that that can be nurtured more and maybe take the
pressure off of having to hit the road every time I want to make a sale um I don't know do you have that kind of
goal because I know you do work with Galleries and you've taken on some installations and stuff like that you
know the in-person thing is still what drives me I do have I have two galleries one is is severely neglected right now
that I I they actually opened up a new location and I haven't been able to fill any kind of orders for for her and then
I've got this other one I've got this and she's funny like I have two main galleries that I sell really well in and
I okay I feel like they know about each other and they're like I have like the
gallery owners like well I could have sold that in my place oh I saw that you're having a show you could have done a show here why don't you just do the
show here it sounds like so for me it sounds like my divorced parents
yeah they're it's a little bit like that actually visiting here yeah I saw you were your father's for Christmas so I
don't know I I run myself a little thin it's just me I can only create as fast as I can create and I still love that in
person thing you know I mean it boils down to this it's like yes you have to we have to diversify we have to we don't
want to you know yes the website yes the galleries yes all this I just I hate it
I've told you before like I hate all this talk of that like I just want to show up and sell my stuff like and I'm
excited about getting back into it and just getting there in person well I think about to me what really hit home
our first season with talking to Chris dalquist is how we can maximize
our time at the shows because if we don't know what we're looking for like I
know that I want to do corporate installations home installations and I have that going in
my mind all the time so when I'm at the shows and in person that I know how to
funnel them into a sale at some point you know what I'm saying and I feel like the in-person shows are a huge part of
of how we do things but knowing the goals of what I want to to have come out
of it it isn't just a wrap up and send what's in my booth that that weekend yeah I guess what I'm saying like if
you're lucky enough in this business to to sell as quickly as you're making it that's not everybody it's not
necessarily me but if like you're if you're selling it like at the end of the day at the end of the year you really
don't have that much work left then then you don't have that much energy to put in other areas I mean you're basically
working as fast as you can and and getting what you need out of it that's that's really what it boils down to like
I'm trying to work smarter and not harder that's the big adage but at the
same time I'm working as hard as I can and and it's paying off for the most part sure yeah hey back to that uh topic
we had earlier about deal making and the economy and everything I was curious about the whole process of like deal
making you know some artists really hate it they say I'm gonna Market what it's
worth somebody comes in and wants to wants to buy it at a discount go [ __ ] yourself I'm not dealing right yeah well
how do you feel about it you want honesty and of course honestly full-on honestly I want the full-on Bert bring
it all right here's my answer if you don't make deals then you're cutting out an entire percentage of the of the
population that makes their money by making deals because they're not buying anything
unless they get a deal like they deal with it all day long you get these top one percenters yeah but people are doing
it to them and so they're going to turn around they're going to do it to us is it fair that the CFO of FedEx got 500
knocked off of this painting that no it's not fair but get over yourself and
you factor that in right I mean since you know that's that's the name of the game that that's part of the whole I
mean that's how I do it anyway it's part of the dance it's part of the dance it is it's part of the dance if somebody walks into the booth and they're like I
love dancing and you're like yeah well I don't like the foxtrot F off yeah for sure I don't know it's it's just that's
the way I run mine and I absolutely listen to like this here I have some
dear friends that are going to be really angry about this and some former guests
because here's here's another side of that yeah if if I'm in my booth swinging
daily deals then I'm encouraging that same client to go in next door and swing deals with somebody who doesn't swing
deals right really why doesn't it work for this person down the street it really screws up their business model so
it's a delicate balance I'm not I don't swing that many deals but after having so many customers come into my booth
that I recognize a certain type of human being and I still want their money then
I'm gonna dance well I have a couple conditions on my dealings first I do not
want to devalue the the work so I kind of know what's out there and I know what
my work would fit into a similar category I'm not gonna like sell it for way less
you know I'm not going to take the desperate oh fine and I also was told early on in this business that if you
make a deal with somebody you need to know that if they are going to be a
repeat customer that you've now set up that same relationship for every single transaction down the line so if your
business is set up where you have somebody who buys from you every single year you kind of have to have a way to
negotiate that like maybe after they've bought three or four times they become like a VIP client or something you know
what I mean and that happens yeah if you can keep track of that stuff like that I mean here's how I deal with it do you
ever deal with your prices and I've already sized them up and I know that they're
you know they're not going to be well I think of it like a poker game I think is
that where you're going to go like reading their eyes and their body language and say and think to yourself
if I say no or they walk in or are they dealing you know yeah I mean a lot of
times like I had this one client this has been years and years ago oh my wife hates the story but um okay Susan Susan
cover your ear results she hates it so it's she's like she's she's sitting here
thinking like please don't tell the pooping the pants story uh here comes all right so here goes I had these
clients come in husband and wife she picked out six pieces right okay like
they wanted to do their whole house remodel in the work right so they're
like I want this in the living room I want this in the foyer I want this over here in the kitchen I want this in the
bathroom and I want this and she's like now it's up to you to make the deal to her husband and then she left for him to
go make the deal and it's like this is a different body of work than I currently have so the the like the six
pieces it was a it was a half it's a show-making thing you know it's like seven or eight grand yeah and and she's
like and and I totaled him up and he was like he just
you let it off oh he's just his bowels released just just let down I was like
wow I just I think I might have just made this guy [ __ ] himself okay but uh
yeah we worked out I did not and and again it's like she's not gonna be happy unless he closes the deal yeah it's like
well I want him to be happy with the sale too so do you charge him like knowing full well that this is gonna be
a a marriage harming failure if he doesn't come home with the the big sale
leverage and the deal you give him a little bit of like a little bit of like look here's I'm gonna give you my
collector's discount this is the price this is what it is here he still was like you know less air inside of his
lower intestine but at the same time it all worked out yeah for sure I think of
talking to Terry cause he wants painter she said when somebody says asks if I'll
take a discount I see a sale coming and so I always think of it that way they're they're ready to deal they wanna they
wanna buy it they're interested it's your job to close it it's either closer okay so here's something that I thought
was kind of uh Michael schregman cover your ears uh will we all know about the
whole uh horoscopes uh deal out there do you remember with the new year start
looking at your horoscope and kind of planning out what the stars have to say about what what's coming in your future
no play the variants no I've not tell me what yours says tell me your horoscope
it's insane well we have this book that we've kind of it says if your horoscope says put a new foot forward then I'll
believe it okay all right okay but it's this really cool book that we typically
over the years would uh on New Year's Eve that's our tradition we sit down and read it's kind of a combination of
numerology astrology tarot and it's got it's based on the
playing deck and it's fun I mean if we do this every year it's our tradition and yeah I can tell from your reaction
that this is kind of crazy well I'm not I kind of shut the door on it let me hear a little bit more I I love dearly
some people who are into that kind of stuff and just because I'm not doesn't mean I don't want to hear it well there are plenty of us out there who are a
little bit on the hippy dippy side and you know um who even witches there's witches out
there there's witches Among Us but I mean that's what we do that's one
of our rituals every year is to kind of like you plan something and you just kind of like you enjoy it for what it's
worth it's kind of like a little a moment and then you let it go and you just kind of see what happens but that's
that's what we do anyway what do you do before you guys judge that stuff when you're you're looking at your schedule and things like that have you ever
actually made it no no no no no we don't take it that that seriously but you know it maybe kind of Falls a little bit in
line with what we talked about with cat Tesla several episodes ago like creating a vision board you know we read this
stuff we think about our future we set an intention or a course for our life and then we just kind of let it go and
see what happens but it like Maps through your life it Maps through your year through different periods and stuff
like that so it's like it's called the cards of your destiny for anyone who's into that kind of stuff if you like to read and do predictions and all that
kind of stuff all right all right that sounds that's pretty cool um hey when you get ready for you said you've got
more shows coming up when you are planning ahead for the year do you set like a specific kind of a production
timeline calendar for like pieces or are you real loose about it
um yeah how I look at it is I want um when I'm going into a show season I I
like to have what I call it hangings it's like I have my perfect Booth I lay out my perfect booth and that's my goal
for one then I look at how many hangings I have okay like how many full hangings
if I sell out everything that I have hanging I want to replace it so I'm like I want
to go into a full spring with three full hangings in my booth so I get the
mechanical of it and I mean you work differently than than we do being 2D and
telling stories is it based on size or is it based on stories do those get
intermixed you know what I'm saying yeah that's that's interesting there are three I want to have
with me I I have a what what my goal is for the booth uh monetarily
I want to have three times the inventory as of my goal okay for example I had two
shows in a row my wife and I are going out on the road we have the same two shows okay first show yeah yeah back to
back first show I blow it out I just absolutely crush and my booth is
decimated right there's not much it's totally picked overlooking
um I really only have three paintings I I typically wouldn't hang those together
it just it doesn't look like my booth sure so typically what would you do you'd cancel right yeah well I'm already
wrapped up with my wife we're already going out uh we're already going west yeah yeah so she didn't blow it out and
decimate her Booth so I'm I'm backing her play and I take you know I'm just
going out I set my booth up and um how did this this is what was really cool because my goal has always been have
three times as much as you expect to sell I have three paintings and I sold one okay so I'm like I I crushed it
right your mouth did it yeah but yeah I but my if you sell 33 of what you
brought God damn you're crushing it so I crushed it even though I only you know I walked with like you know three or four
thousand dollars that's interesting that brings up a point I hadn't thought about there's plenty artists out there who
work as couples who have separate bodies of work and do the same shows and kind
of that balance of like well technically if you would have been on your own you would have canceled gone home and got to
work but because you know you're you're you guys are traveling together and stuff I guess I I sometimes don't think about
how it how that works for other people because we work as a partnership it all gets lumped into one big pile you know
and I'm just not used to that whole thing yeah I mean there are plenty of shows where where Dylan strasinski backs
Helen gottliff's play you know where he's like that's an okay show but Helen crushes it here so that's where they go
and I might as well have a booth up you know absolutely so it is interesting
and that's a totally different business model you're just kind of you're plus wanting it I'm like look
um I did a show last year where I I I did it was a complete Gamble and I took
one on the chin and I just walked around the corner and and sold Jewels with my wife that's where you were more needed
was to sell her work yeah exactly oh well it made me think about the conversation that I had with Duke a
couple of episodes ago when he said how him and ladez to the to the dime would
break break down what you know and as a married couple even they kept things very financially separate so that they
both had their own independence and that's not how we do it but I thought that was so interesting I hadn't
even considered it that way and they're even working in the same body work so right yeah that is that is wild those
Partnerships out there how they how they work it's really really cool that brings back something you said earlier in the
show too where you're talking about your your show schedule and I'm like well my ideal number of shows is six to eight you know
for me and you're like I don't know we're more 12 to 14. I'm like well if you count how many Susie's doing
and I'm doing that's a lot higher that's closer to 14 15 which is up to what you guys are
doing it's like we're actually doing the same amount of shows but you got to support both of you in order to do it if
you have two of you then you can assuming you so you can assuming you can walk around on your feet that's the big
variable isn't it yeah once you hire somebody I totally that's such a great idea I
should consider it hey will you come work for me absolutely not you can't afford me baby
hey uh so back to the the new year and and kind of like I'm in my head
obviously sure because of not being able to be physical so I'm watching things
getting inspired by things making me wonder where that inspiration comes from
and I had a dream one night about my art and about the art business and I
realized we've never talked much about kind of the dream life on the podcast do
you does that ever factor into anything for you or are you one of those that just doesn't dream at night oddly uh you
popped up in my dreams the other day gorgeous uh really yeah tell me all
about it it was a typical show dream kind of and but it was just like a regular show and then you came bounding
into my booth on your brand new feet so uh hopefully that that that means good things to come for you
well my energy is definitely there but not physically so hopefully that is a sign I'll take it as a sign for now for
sure I wonder if there's something you can do but back to the dreams do you ever do you ever have dreams about your
your art or dreams about being at a show anxiety dream sure I typically anxiety
controls like like the show was set up like yesterday and then it's the morning of and I'm supposed I'm not set up yet
it started the streets are closed you can't get to your booth uh your booth is
three feet wide um yeah I actually had one of those uh real life anxiety dreams once uh I set
up it was one of those morning setups a Florida morning setup and I set up my
booth where I was marked and then they had mismarked the the booth sizes so an
artist came and their Booth was like eight feet or something uh instead of ten and instead of dealing with the
director and having them find a new spot they set their Booth up in front of me and try as I might I couldn't convince
them not to so they they're both overlapped two feet in front of my booth and I was like their back room so that
was like a real life anxiety dream what ended up happening did you just did you
just take it or I took it and I had a shitty show I I glare at them every time I walked by them and head down the
street see here's how I deal with that I'd be like okay your booth is coming down all right yeah there's two options
you take your booth down the other option is we end up on the news laughs
that's that's yeah that's got a little more aggressiveness than I do and then somebody's setting their [ __ ] up in
front of my booth you yeah I do I took it up with the director and they just Shrugged and walked away and I'm like oh
yeah not good not good at all so no one of those bets not happening pissy
moments but no I I do dream a lot I do dream often uh one of my anxiety dreams
actually when the kids were little this is bizarre I'm blowing glass and you know it's dangerous in a glass studio
sure and the dream will go from opening up the oven and part of it might just be
because so much of what we do is so repetitive is so um like second nature
so I'm opening up the furnace which is 2 100 degrees I take the glass blowing
pipe and I'm going to dip into the molten glass and as I go to turn it I realize I'm holding my brand new baby
and I'm like lifting the baby into the furnace and I wake up screaming and those dreams are like real man those are
scary trees yeah that's not that's not good not good at all okay baby Out of
the Furnace oh Jesus but anyway I do dream about you know work too I've been dreaming a lot about making stuff and
and what we're going to make and I'm kind of looking forward to this next year coming up nice ever come up with
ideas in your dreams that you write down Renee does in fact Renee is very visual
when she exercises so there's a lot of times she will hop off the treadmill or
take a break from what she's doing and she'll sketch something out so she doesn't forget it interesting her mind
yeah gets really activated from from that it's interesting we're talking about inspiration and where ideas come
from and just talking about going to the Walker and I tend to be more influenced Maybe by photography
which is odd um then I am about necessarily paintings
but oh it's just a different medium than yours gives you kind of
inspiration and foreign
the big inspiration for me this year has been seeing like negative space again
there's like the like I don't know if you know the the Minnesota actually I believe she lives down here in Santa Fe
but Agnes Martin but like she's an abstract painter that my wife turned me on to that that we
really love but there's I mean it couldn't have anything less to do with me and my body of work than right you
know this this really subtle abstract painting that you can barely even tell has a pattern until you're right up on
top of it and no one would draw the correlation that that would like looking at your work and looking at this
person's work that you would find such inspiration from it right or like our um
like Laura Nugent who I really admire her work she's an abstract painter but it she's drawing from some patterns and
and getting down into some some patterns and things and and that is a really tough sell at an art show like this subtlety
that she brings to her work because it's like you almost need that breathing room that
that Walker space you know that that museum space she's more of like a an Agnes Martin kind of kind of thing in in
the scale of a 10 foot by 10 foot Booth or Sharon Lockhart again these artists
who were like they have the courage to let their work breathe a little bit even
within the composition so I don't know that's that's my goal if if anything I've been getting inspired by stuff that
wouldn't even relate to what we do lately too like I just watched the Vivian uh Westwood documentary she just
passed away last week um do you know who she is she's the I do the punk rock uh fashion designer yeah I
mean I just loved her story and I loved everything about who she is and she's not she was not classically trained and
she was breaking boundaries and in many regards people disregarded her as even
like a legitimate fashion designer but she had this amazing career that was a
movement and so her her presence and her abilities were just so inspiring to me
and to kind of like cut out the chatter and cut out the noise of what people think you know and just do your thing
and to do your own special magic that right kind of comes back to the thing we refer back to it's like we all have that
special thing we do and to not let you know not let those negativity or or the
external forces affect kind of putting your your best foot forward right that's
interesting too the whole I don't know and how do you this is another thing too like if you're only getting a and this
goes back to again and sorry to keep bringing it back up but like that two and a half Paces in order to get past
your booth you know how do you have something subtle how do you have the courage to have subtlety within your
work if you're constantly like hey look at me I gotta be Bright I Gotta Be This I Gotta Be that I got to be yeah you
know graphic or dramatic or I think how do you I'm trying to do that also with
social media and with um website by showing what we do in
people's homes as kind of like maybe an after the show kind of an example or
catalog of of what can be done because I do not want to show up to the to the um
this show and and feel like I have a minimalist Booth I would be a nut Soul because I I do feel like I need to have
I need to have everything we do represented because I want to have those conversations
sure no that makes sense with what you're doing it totally does because I what you and Renee have created is a
store and I admire that and it's a different business model than what I'm trying to do I'm trying to create and it don't get
me wrong I mean I'm not this is not you know one is not better than the other no it's just different like yes store where
I have to create a gallery space you know and it's it's like you kind of walk in and it's a little breezier whereas
you are going after more of like Punchy excitement and you catch energy an
energy but an Elegance within that too which I think you nail but uh anyway but
a lot of what we do is with collections so it's piecing one of the ways we are
able to kind of up our game is having multiple pieces tell a bigger story so a
lot of times what that involves is swapping factors around in order to get
that collection that somebody wants and so we have to give that impression from
how we display it so that's another element of of why we do what we do yeah
so speaking speaking of inspiration you said you you know you got inspired from some stuff you saw at the Walker I did
want to ask you about where do you find your sources for like your stories is it
from booksheread is it from you know what I'm saying you have specific
stories that are your voice and I'm curious not necessarily to tell your secrets but where do you usually find
those those sources for stories I I don't know Douglas you're asking me to give my Spiel it sounds like
I do feel like we have over the past two years we turn the spotlight on other
artists and they tell kind of their process and sure we tell the business type stuff but this the kind of the how
we do what we do I am interested in there are a couple of questions that over the past few weeks of me just
sitting on my butt I've been thinking about that with you what is your Spiel what is your Source uh my source
honestly it has every everything to do with music if I wasn't an artist I wish I'd been a professional musician that is
what I I what really gets me in lyrics lately within the last like five to ten
years lately for 10 years but uh right lately within the last few years
uh it's been taking a fragment of a song lyric and taking it out of context
telling a different story with it there's a show that I'm doing in a gallery show right now which is kind of
taking those Legends of different eras and I had done
I didn't I wanted to stay away from musicians because I had done so many
pieces about music so when I I got down to doing that kind of portraiture work it had more to do with my move out west
and doing like legendary Western portraits on Old maps of native
territories and telling the stories of of History versus truth and Legend and
so this story that I'm kind of telling at this you know in the Chicago Gallery I had talked to the gallery owner as a
dear friend now uh Chris Jackson he and his his wife are on the circuit uh
Jackson young Gallery but Laura young is the artist and he's always been the seller and they opened up a gallery
anyway talking to him about Chicago Legends and you know who are the next
steps of within that like Western Legends in Chicago you've got the Mobsters so I did this series of
kind of like taking some of their quotes out of context misaligning their quotes taking them to mean other things for us
as inspiration I guess and then playing with uh the historical timeline as well
like taking the background imagery is slightly different the um using some of my old
kind of the lady in red as the focal point of like Well the lady in red who
is who killed Dillinger you know she's the one that set up John Dillinger and he followed this lady and and it's like
if you take the actual story from eyewitnesses and the lady that comes in she's actually wearing orange
okay but then that goes in hand in hand with like you know Mark Twain's never let the truth get in the way of a good
story yeah I mean I do a lot of your your pieces I like that that uh twist or that deeper
meaning or like that maybe an irony of of it is the line but then there's like
the flip behind the meaning of that or what does it really mean what's the deeper meaning behind it right and yeah
it makes me sometimes it makes me laugh it makes me think oh that's sweet the the you know a lot
of times the meaning I I don't even share with with some of the people but there is so much behind it that is
almost like it can be just for you it can it can be for the collector but you don't want it to
prohibit The Collector from let's say connecting with another element of it that maybe wouldn't jive with what your
intention behind it is I try to tell stories on a couple of different levels I don't shy away from
the term illustrator uh that's what I was trained as that's what I like so when I look at my work I think of it as
large format illustrations presented as fine art if you will yeah you know and
and so I love to get into some more of the kind of abstract stuff but I'm a lot
more anal retentive than that and I can't I can't let that go so I like to try to be a little looser and and uh
that's always my goal but it's been my goal ever since I was in college that's always been the critique of my work because people have been like can you
loosen it up a little bit can you let's see you get a little bit more free and I'm like you know the older I get the more I realize it's just not who I am
yeah well you gotta do you gotta do what motivates you I mean really yeah and
dance with the one that brought you yeah a lot of times I go to shows with new work and they'll be like yeah but
where's this and I'm like okay well I gotta have a delicate balance of being inspired still by my old work and taking
it to new places sure conversely like how about yourself like where does where does that how do you
answer that same question for me and Renee which there might even be differences between the two of us but
I'm sure I think that a lot of it is our is our process I mean we found each
other's perfect playmate and glassblowing is so much ebb and flow and
changing along the way and I fell in love with the process when we started and I I'm still in love with
it I love that you can start out in One Direction and then something starts to change and you're like okay I have to
abandon this original idea because the Glass isn't going to do that but I know where I can take it from here so it's
not like it gets out of your control or anything right and so it almost to me
serves as a simple towards life being a little more
um hippy-dippy in the sense that do we really have control over every little
aspect of things and to kind of allow that control to go and see how it
manifests and you know Buddhists believe that there's a real power in detaching
from outcomes and so I would say that we definitely work in that way especially
in our kind of loose abstract we call our watercolor series because it's
challenging when the glass is stretching at varying rates it's hard to have it be
a predetermined look so we flow with it and we allow it to have almost its own
Evolution and that's almost becomes satisfactory in the aspect of
the process because we know we we solved that problem that puzzle we started here
and we got to there so it sounds like your medium dictates a lot of your creativity too because like you talk
about the flow you got it it's like that's the way your work has to flow between the two of you guys as well as
the glass is that what you're kind of what you're saying I am new ideas a new series come out of where the glass went
in a in a place we weren't expecting it and I sometimes feel like it becomes stale for us when we get too rigid about
creating a design in our in our mind I'm not saying we don't do that I'm not saying we don't create a design that
would be like not even actually no no actually I understand but we kind of
have a road map and we allow it to unfold and pieces that I like the most
are when they have a surprise at the end and I'm like oh man I did not see that coming yeah or with me a lot like what
what Ben was talking about last week or a couple few weeks back was the the whole sometimes our clients tell us what
it's about because if I'm taking I try to tell open into stories with my work I'll have a historical timeline that
I'll walk like where music comes from and where it goes and the Deep South as it goes up the Mississippi River or 61
into Chicago I'll work that theme and and that's where I like to sell my work
too is a lot of times like along that corridor from New Orleans to Chicago
okay that's where I feel alive and that's where you know the music that I love was created and I'll take a
fragment of a song lyric and take it out of context and still tell that same story within the same story or have like
you know myself at the crossroads of 61 and 49 instead of Robert Johnson it's
like well here's this this you know kind of cowboy guy and it's still the music of where it comes from and where it goes
but taking different characters and putting them in different situations and that's what translates into other
people's meaning right like if they if they have a similar when you have a connection to Route 61
for example and then it might be different than what you were intending but their reaction to it is right
equally valid as to where what you were trying to express exactly I love the
romance of that road because you've got tick Bob Dylan and he's up in Minnesota and he's he's
romanticizing 61 getting down to the Delta and and getting you know down into
the mud of whatever well then you take the blues artists who are down in the Delta they're dying to get on 61 and
get the hell out of there because it's this depressed awful racist uh restrictive place to live so I love that
kind of dichotomy of like the Romance of the road versus the the necessity and
and the storytelling of what exists um on on that that that plane so this just
came to me so music is an inspiration for you as a listener but were you a musician
uh yeah I played upright bass in a little rockabilly blues band oh cool I knew you weren't a fan but I didn't do
sing did you play I I just played upright played sang a little backup um you can find us on uh iTunes if you're
interested in that the band name so Elvis had this henchman uh as part of
his Memphis Mafia whose only job was to go get Elvis and the rest of the crew hamburgers when they were up late
um practicing and and hanging out and partying and so the guy's name was hamburger James and so we named our band
hamburger James and and you can find we have two records up up on iTunes nice there I am standing there looking super
smug but yeah I play upright bass and and um what about that character was so that made you want to choose that as as
your group's name uh that's just it's attached to that kind of uh the history
of that music and he's just so ridiculous like he's a really ridiculous character hamburger James Cawley but
last time I checked he was still alive and living in Memphis you could just look them up awesome that's pretty cool
old guy okay so one last thing before we we go I wanted to talk a little bit
about this project and what we've been doing here on the podcast I we all know
that Barbara Walters passed away recently and something that they played over and over again is clips of her
talking about when she did her interviews with people how she would always finish the interview and be like
why didn't you ask that question or why didn't you ask that question and it made me think about her podcast did you ever
have that when you have when you talked to other guests that afterwards like it went down a different Road or you wished
you would ask that or something like that yeah there's always things we leave on the table in little parts of the
notes and and I try to end it uh typically I'll try to end it with like is there anything we didn't cover just to see if there's things that that are
out there what do you what do you wish we we had asked but um what are some of the ones that haunt you before I say
that I wanted to say that reminded me when you asked that of of Mark winner and we got that beautiful elephant story
that he oh yeah that that he about making the elephant shoes and it's like we would have lost that had that moment
not happen that was a great story yeah I love that story well I do sometimes when I listen to him back and
I'm editing so it's kind of I have a little bit of a different experience I think perhaps than you do maybe you do
when you hear the interview kind of edited and stuff but as I'm working on it and I'm listening I think to myself
somebody just said X or Y or whatever why didn't I ask a
follow-up on that why did I let that go and take it in a different direction and
there was a conversation that I was having with Lisa Christine and she
talked about how the subjects of her work they were covered in mud and she saw
this these this population of people in like the National Geographics and she looked at them and she saw them as kind
of unshakable right and that she said she did not feel that her life was unshakable and I wished I would have
asked her to expand upon that but the moment was gone and we moved on to much other exciting topics and but that was
one of the moments I kicked myself no I'm I'm with you you know sometimes I mean there's got to be times too when
I'm interviewing people too and you you're like oh my God why did you do this why didn't you ask them this I
don't what I actually remember more are the moments where I think of what I
would have asked and you ask something like 180 then what I would have done and
I'm like oh my God I love that he asked that I love where this went and I get like a sense of surprise and like
talking to Ray Alphonse you know his escape from Cuba it was like this exciting story that was a that one that
was that was an instance where it was it was pretty clear early on that I just needed to get out of the way that Ray
had some stories to tell and just you know I it he took very little guidance you know he just it's like I just love
listening to him talk so that was that was one of my favorites but uh it wasn't I do want to know I want to know more
about Kina Crow and her uh her porn costuming experiences that's that's
where I would have been a little more fun tell me more about uh yeah let's hear a little bit more about that French
maids costume I think she got yeah let's hear what she's got let's titillate the audience
wait for sweep sweep on that one that what has been one of the things people have talked about when they come up to
me and they're like oh my God I'm thinking of Tina Dancing on the table as a little girl for her so her dad could
buy drinks I mean we've had so many awesome stories over the past two seasons and I'm looking forward to the
ones we've got coming up here so yeah we're getting close here to episode 50 uh which is pretty pretty um it's
totally insane we thought we might do this for I don't know until we got back on the road yeah yeah it became a coveted project
and and really kind of took a life of its own we appreciate um I'd like to say a couple of little shout outs yeah
especially sponsorship from the NAIA giving us a little bit of credibility early on and then uh especially zap too
for giving us the opportunity to get these voices out and um really appreciate them uh financially
backing us and giving us the freedom and to say what we want say say Our Truth
they give us a lot of room we we don't take that lightly we we don't step in it
too often uh but you know they really trust they trust that what we're putting out there is kind of real voices not the
varnished voices so we're not just saying all good things we are saying what's hard and what's tough sure and to
be fair I step in it all the time you just edit it I edit it really well I'm like oh hell no not that you're like oh
no no no no no lawsuits today Armstrong over the year one of my favorite intros
you said leading into the the Betty Yeager episode you said that's your introduction you said okay and [ __ ] you
here's Betty right that's uh that's a good one talk about
one of my favorites she's she's a great human so a special shout out to all of our special guests and I feel like we're
kind of winding it down here I'm talking to uh this week for the next episode I'm
gonna sit down with Amy fulbot no I'm sorry her name is Amy Flynn but I always learned full bot as her last name will
philbot be uh attended is going to um is going to sit this one out it's
gonna be just me and Amy we're gonna we're gonna chat about her her ridiculous little mind to coin now Kina
Crow's title so we're gonna get into into her inspiration and what makes her tick she's been a long time coming it's
uh she's been a big fan of the show and and she's a good friend huge supporter yeah and a good friend so like I'm
excited to hear your talk there she's got a lot to say so who do you have coming up here will you know what I've
got uh Trey Taylor and Helene coming down the the pike as well we're going to talk about spirituality and and Peru and
all sorts of things we're gonna dig right down into um giving back to the community in Selma
Alabama all sorts of things that this talk is going to go so I'm excited to let everybody hear this one that's
awesome well we've actually just started talking and we turned in whole episode into it so maybe this year we'll do a few more of these where it's just you
and me kind of mix it up who knows how our format will change so just stay tuned everyone keep it fresh let's do
this uh yeah we'll talk to you in a couple weeks folks and uh thanks again for tuning in all right happy New Year
this podcast is brought to you by the National Association of Independent Artists the website is
1:16:31 also sponsored by zapplication that's and
while you're at it find us on social media and engage in these conversations be sure to subscribe to this podcast to
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