Powerhouse Podcast Episode 1: The Power of a System With Guest John Fisher

Welcome to the Powerhouse Practice Podcast with Social Security Disability Attorney Nancy L. Cavey! The Powerhouse Practice Podcast is where you will learn the ins and outs of a highly successful Social Security Disability Practice. We cover everything from practice management to marketing, and everything in-between!

In this weeks episode - we feature Attorney and Author John Fisher! We cover how John and his book - The Power Of A System - can help your disability practice and why it is important to have systems that are built into your practice. We also cover Book marketing and how that works.

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS SHOW:

Join the Powerhouse Podcast Group:  https://powerhousepractice.com/

HOW TO CONTACT JOHN:

John's Website Link: https://protectingpatientrights.com/

John's Book "The Power of a System" : https://ultimateinjurylaw.com/

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

Hey, I'm Nancy C avey, I'm a social security disability attorney and a national ERISA and individual disability attorney. I want to welcome you to our kickoff episode of the powerhouse practice. It's my honor to have as our first g uest, a guy by the name of J ohn Fisher, John is in medical malpractice attorney in New York. But to me he's much more than that. He is a thought leader. He is a motivational speaker. He's a phenomenal attorney, but more important. He walks the talk. I met John a s part of a, a national mastermind group that he runs. And I'm proud to say that I'm a member, but he brings not only to his practice, but to this group, a sense of honesty, integrity, u h, and commitment that is hard to find in lawyers today. And particularly lawyers who run, u m, mastermind groups. So I want to welcome J ohn today as our special g uest.

John Fisher: 1:13

Oh, Hey Nancy. Thank you so much for your kind words and, and the sentiment is mutual. So I have great respect for you in all the work that you do, and it's an honor to be a guest on your podcast.

Nancy L. Cavey: 1:25

Thank you. Well, I want you to first tell us what is the power of a mastermind and what is a mastermind group?

John Fisher: 1:33

Well, the mastermind is the missing ingredient because so many of us in practice, especially plaintiff's injury lawyers, we, we go it alone and we think we've got all the answers, but we don't. And so the, the concept of the mastermind began for me back in 2013, I was at invited to a meeting of some of the best internet marketers in the world, really in info at infusion soft and Chandler Arizona. I have no idea why they invited me, but I'm there. And I'm sitting there with about 30 to 50 of the top internet marketers, anywhere, South Africa, Britain, Australia, and amazing business owners. And I'm, I'm sort of the, the, the person who just doesn't belong in this meeting. And I'm sort of sitting there hoping that no one realizes that. So I'm sitting through three days of meeting with the founders and executive team at infusion soft. And they're going through, uh, with each individual owner, how to brainstorm, collaborate, and share, and build a better business model. And I came away from that, just blown away. And I'm thinking to myself, I came back home and I said to my wife, you would not believe what I just experienced. And she said to me, wait a minute, how much did this cost? And I said, don't worry about it. It's good. And she said, no, no, no. How much? I said it was only$10,000. And she said,$10,000. We could have gone on for that. Are you kidding? And I'm like, no, no, no, no. This is far better than a vacation. Because what you do is you feel you form relationships with some of the leading top people in your field who will do anything for you. The relationships that I built in 2013, I still have many of those relationships. I can call email any of these people and they'll do anything for me. So the way I would describe a mastermind, it's a board of advisors of elite attorneys who are willing to do anything at a moment's notice for you. You could pick up the phone right now and say, I've got a problem in my office. What should I do? And people like bill Uman, ski and Chuck boy, Mike and Nancy KV, they'll, they'll pick up their phone, they'll take the unscheduled phone call and say, Hey, I've done the same. I've had the same problem. Here's what I would do. And so we meet every three to four months and, and we also have a weekly mastermind called plaintiff's elite that meets on a weekly basis. But the reality is it's like having, if you were a financial advisor and you could say, uh, bill Gates, Warren buffet, and bayzos, and are going to be your advisors for your business, it'd be like, wow, that's incredible. You couldn't fail. If you had them guiding you through all the obstacles and problems that you face. And you talked about like the, the no attitude, which is let's, let's put away all the nonsense here, and let's not focus on how successful you are, but let's break you down into your weaknesses and focus on them. So that's really what, what a mastermind is. It's, it's picking the minds of brilliant attorneys who are willing to do anything to help you. It is the number one thing that I've ever done in my career. And I am so grateful to have people like you, Nancy, who have had a good experience with us because it's not just like showing up one time and everything works out great. It doesn't work that way. It's an ongoing commitment to your brothers and sisters and who are willing to, to collaborate, share, and brainstorm, make you a better version of yourself. And I think that we've done that. So I'm really grateful to have you in our mastermind and others. It's just been fantastic.

Nancy L. Cavey: 5:09

Well, thank you. Now you've written a book called the power of a system, and I wanted to ask you, uh, why you wrote the book, uh, and why you think it's important that there be a system in a law practice, regardless of whether it's a social security disability practice or a personal injury practice or a criminal law practice. Can you elaborate on that? For us

John Fisher: 5:34

Started in 2010, I got fired from the only real job I ever loved, which was, I'd worked 14 years at a catastrophic, prominent, a nationally prominent, catastrophic, personal injury law firm. And, and one day just totally out of the blue, they fired me and they said, you're out leave. And I'm like, what do I do now? Like I got three little kids at home and a wife. I I'm like stunned at that point. So I walk out the door and I think, all right, get your stuff together. What, what can I do? So I think one thing I did have was a collection of incredible systems for running a law firm. I learned what to do, what not to do. And so I said, okay, I'm going to start writing them down. So I just had a piece of paper and pad, I just start documenting everything. And I just kept writing and writing. And finally, after two and a half years, the publisher said, you've got to just submit this it's it's too much. And it's really enough copy for three books. And I said, no, no, no. I'm going to give everything I've got. So I put all of my systems into a book that's called the power of a system. So it's a hardcover book, about 300 pages. And when I had first decided to write this book, I was still actually with my firm. And they said to me, I said, I'm going to write a book about managing and marketing a plaintiff's injury law firm. They all laughed hysterically. So there's about seven or eight lawyers. And they're like, what a joke? Why would you do that? Why would you give away all of the secrets that we've taken years to learn? Because no one else is doing it. And if no one else is doing it in my mind, that's what we should be doing. So if you act like all the other lawyers out there, you're going to be just like them mediocre. But if you do something that's completely novel and unique and you give away all your secrets, then all of a sudden you've got something special. And so I wrote that book two and a half years. It came out in 2013, the power of a system, but I don't just use this to help other lawyers. I use this to help myself cause it's got all of our policies and systems for every aspect of running our firm. But I wanted other lawyers to have this because the plaintiff's bar doesn't help each other. They're very egotistical egocentric. And all they think about is they've got all the answers, but I don't. And I know that if I can share this, give and help just one or two attorneys, then it's worth its weight in gold,

Nancy L. Cavey: 7:55

Which I, one of my strengths are systems. And in the course of my practice, I've developed a big book, uh, about 300 pages long. And you inspired me to take my office manual my systems approach to create my own version of your work with your approval. And it's the power of a social security disability system. Um, I learned a lot and by the way, we take that book and every year, and at the end of the year, I go through with my social security disability department, what we're doing, because what I think I'm doing, isn't really what we're doing or things have changed or what the judges are doing has changed. And so we, we use this as, uh, a basis for, um, updating our processes and procedures. But I also learn more about the practice of social security, law and law in general, even though I've been practicing for many years, as you have tell me, what's the top thing you think you learned about the practice of law by writing your book? The power of a system?

John Fisher: 9:01

One of the things that I realized, uh, early on about writing a book is all of the systems and policies that you have in your head are worthless unless you're sharing them with your team. So if they don't know something, we have a member of our mastermind who says Ryan McCain, who says, I have an open door policy. Anyone can come into my office at any time. But the first question I'm going to ask them is, do we have a policy for that? Because if we don't, then I ask them, I want you to write a policy, come back when it's done, we will sit down and review it. And then we're going to get it onto our Wiki style website with all of our policies and procedures. So that's absolutely brilliant because what you're doing is you're getting engagement from your team and asking them to build systems. So I think the big, the biggest thing I've learned Nancy is really the power of getting your team involved. So for example, later today, one of our paralegals is going to basically do a zoom instructional video for a new paralegal on how to schedule a deposition. The new paralegal has never done it before. So what a better way, why do we go through the same instruction, insane training with every new employee that we have, it's really a waste of time. But if we've documented everything in text and video, then it's a no brainer because we can take all these policies, give them to the new employee. And before they even start working, they know our system. So one of the beauties, Nancy I'll share with you. One of our paralegals came into me the other day and she said, I need to violate one of our policies. And I was like, okay. Uh, and she said, no, and it's pretty, it's pretty bad. And I said, Oh, okay, well, I guess we'll allow it. Cause one of our policies is we do not allow gossip or profanities. So she said the defense attorney is a. I was like, okay. I said, that's okay, no problem.

Nancy L. Cavey: 10:57

Because we

John Fisher: 10:58

Have policies. And most importantly, Nancy getting people into your, your team who embrace systems and not like, Oh, I don't need a system. I'm going to do things my way. No, no, that's no good. You need people who embrace it. Start building systems for you and keep building system after system every day, let last week I created about eight or nine different systems, but I, but ideally our team will be the one building them. So I think Nancy, if you, you sit down and let's say you bring in the phone person for your firm and they they're gonna tell you how to use the phones, videotape it, and then break that video into two to three minute little clips. So everyone in your firm has a video tutorial on how to use the phones because otherwise there'll be like, how do I do a five-way conference call? I can do that because it's in Fisher pedia, that's our online system of policies. So that's the benefit of, of having a system is you, won't be asking, answering the same questions over and over again.

Nancy L. Cavey: 12:00

And more importantly, John, you have consistency among your staff. And so that's great. So we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about pillars of success and how John uses the power of books and attracting and engaging clients stay tuned. Welcome back. I want to talk to you John, about what I call the four pillars of practice success. Um, I have a client attraction system, a client engagement system, a client delivery system, and I have a staff education system. And I know that you have used books, um, in the client attraction process. Uh, but your process is a bit unique because it's really what we call B2B business to business. Uh, I have books that I use that are directed towards my social security disability, ideal client. And I know that you, at one point, um, had that approach. So can you talk about how you used, uh, books generally in attracting clients and what it did for your practice?

John Fisher: 13:20

The biggest epiphany I had as an attorney is that, uh, lawyers are my clients not injury victims. So I really don't do any marketing to injury victims. It's a hundred percent business to business and exclusively on marketing, not to Deloitte lawyers in general, but lawyers who have high volume plaintiff's personal injury law firms in the state of New York who do not handle medical malpractice, ideally in the age, somewhere between 35 and 55. But those are my targets. So I'll give you an exact, I mean, the reason for that Nancy is I realized early in my career that for catastrophic injury lawyers, if somebody becomes paralyzed or they die, the likelihood that they or their family are gonna refer anyone again to our firm is close to zero. So why on earth would I continually market to these people? When I know that they're not going to send us quality cases, but what about a prominent personal injury lawyer? So the leading personal injury lawyer in the state of New York with about 70 lawyers in his firm is a guy that I know, well, I didn't know him at all. And how did I get to know him? I sent him a copy of my book, the power of a system. And I said, just thought, you'd like a copy of my book. Would you like to do a focus group with my firm where we focus on one of your cases that's coming up for trial. And at first he was like, ah, I'm not so sure. But then he sent one of his partners to the focus group. We did it for a County bar association and we presented one of their case, the partner that he sent to the firm raved about the event to the top guy at this firm and said, this is unbelievable. I learned so much about how to do a focus group. And from that point, it now leads to referrals on a, on a daily, weekly basis from just one connection. That is the power of a book. So Nancy, I really believe very strongly in not selling books, but giving them away. I have thousands of books in the room that's right next door to me, our marketing room, they're sort of like piled up like this and I just mail them out over the weekend or a week ago, I nailed about a hundred books. I sign everyone. I put a little personal note in each one because nobody else is doing that. I just give it away. So I focus on the law schools of New York. I focus on, we have 435 referral partners, and those are not former clients. Those are lawyers who refer us work, but it's really not that impressive, honestly, because of those 435, there's only about four or five of those lawyers who send us steady work. And by steady, I mean, daily or weekly, the vast majority of them might send one case every five years or maybe, maybe, maybe once every two years. But if you hyper target your ideal client, the demographics age, gender, uh, geographic region, practice area, and that's what I've done. I've got, and we, we list 20 whales and then we market to them, not by asking for anything. We give away everything. We give away the power of our system. We give away my new book, which is called the law firm of your dreams. We put them on a monthly print newsletter. That's called lawyer alert, which I've done for the last 10 years. And we put them in all kinds of marketing campaigns. And then I write them personal notes, congratulating them on different things that they've done. And before the pandemic, we had weekly luncheon. So I have a marketing person who is absolutely fantastic Bev Davis. And she will schedule all these luncheons for me and you breaking bread, develops a relationship unlike anything else. So it really does cultivate the relationship, but everything Nancy has been instead of marketing about myself or talking about how great I am, because let's face it, I've had success, but I've also had failures. I've had wins, I've had tremendous losses and I've had everything and it has been a struggle for me. And, but if I, instead of taking the focus of our marketing about me, make it about the book and use everything that I do about the book, then it opens doors. It opens relationships. It will open national speaking engagements for the attorney. I mean, it's, it's unbelievable, honestly. And I want to share one quick story with you. When I first wrote the book, I was in Fairfax, Virginia meeting with Ben glass, believe it or not. And we were, we were meeting there and I get a call. I mean a dingy motel room in Fairfax. I get a call mysel. And one of our referral partners in Newburgh, New York says, I've got a great case for you. It's a young guy who was paralyzed 26 year old paralyzed due to the overdose of anesthesia. But you've, you've got to meet with the family right now. Cause they're interviewing a bunch of lawyers and I'm like, I'm in Fairfax. I can't meet with him today. And so I said, well, just secure a meeting for two days from now, two days later, the client reluctantly gives us a meeting. And I walk into the hospital with, with the client's family, wife, mother, like extended family, the whole thing. But before I go there, I noticed there's a line of attorneys outside the door waiting to meet with them. And I'm like, Oh, this sucks. I'm not getting this case. So I spend about an hour. I talk about the case. And as I leave Nancy, I give them a copy of the power of a system. And they look at me and they're like, what's this? Why are you giving us a lawyer book? And so I just left. I had very little hope that I'd get the case. Two days later, the client calls me. It was the, the patient's wife who called me and said, we're hiring you. And I said, great. But can I ask why? Cause they, they interviewed much bigger known lawyers than me. And they said, because we've been reading your book and all the testimonials that are in the very front part of the book, talk about how, what a wonderful lawyer you are. And we figure if other lawyers feel that way about you, then you're perfect for us. This book, that case ended up resolving for 3.7, 5 million. And the fee was slightly over 500,000. I got that case because of the book. So people ask me, Nancy, what is the return on investment of a book? Well, in that case, it was over$500,000. What could I say? I mean, if, but this is a long-term approach to marketing nets. It's not like you're going to get cases immediately writing a book and marketing your business with a book is a marathon. It's not a sprint. And you've got to say, I'm not focusing just on the nest. Next six months, I'm focused on the next 30 or 40 years. I'm focused on making this, the cornerstone of everything that I do. And if you do that, it can change your world.

Nancy L. Cavey: 20:00

So, John, I like to say that the three most important things that I do in attracting clients and engaging clients and help deliver services is one my website to light my book, uh, which is, uh, your rights to social security, disability benefits, which I provide to clients as part of the attraction engagement and delivery process. But it's also a newsletter and Ron, I don't want to overwhelm everybody today with those three things. That's why I wanted to start out with, with the book because the book, you know, my book, uh, you know, this book is basically designed directly to, uh, for consumers. It explains the social security disability, five-step sequential evaluation. The claims process talks about what people do even talks about how to hire the right attorney. And John, I have found that people, you know, before COVID would be coming into my office with this book saying, we've already decided we want to hire you. Let's just talk about the case and, and, and how you get paid. So I have found that in my particular practice that this direct, uh, book to, um, social security disability applicants has worked well now I also have another book. This is why my book involving my Arista disability practice and it's designed for professionals. So what I do with that is I use that twofold just like you do. Um, I'm trying to attract in my disability practice professionals. And so I will, I will, you know, give this book to, uh, doctors, other lawyers. I do bar presentations on the basis of, of this particular book. So I'm trying to use both methods. And as you said, this is not something, um, uh, that happens overnight. But what I found and I'd like you to comment on this is when I, when I wrote this book, uh, your rights to social security, basically it was the speech that I would give to those prospective clients. And I just picked up my dictating machine, my phone, and I just talked exactly what it is. I would say to my client, prospective client, had it typed up and then we, you know, made it into a book for form. What was your experience in, um, writing, um, your books?

John Fisher: 22:29

I think one of the biggest fallacies Nancy is that that book writing is easy. It is not. And if you're going to write a masterpiece, this is going to be hard, but that's okay because nothing good in life comes easy. And so the, the whole concept that I've heard from other lawyers out there, which I completely disagree with is go for a walk, take a Dictaphone, sort of dictate a book in four hours, come back, you'll have a book. No, you won't truthfully you'll have a piece of crap. So let's, let's, let's get rid of that. Your, your job in writing a book, if you're so inclined is to write a masterpiece, something that will last the rest of your life. That's going to be when you die, people are going to keep reading your book because it's absolute gold. So, Nancy, I really think that when lawyers and it's just such a common marketing thing among lawyers that you have to have a book, no you don't. If the book is not in your heart and soul, don't write it. But if it is, and you feel like there's something in your heart that you've got to share with the world, then by all means you've got to do it. And so I really feel like the process takes time. My next book, which just came out the law firm of your dreams. This book took four and a half years to write it's five pages, but it's got everything that I know everything. And I hope that that law schools will use it. Other lawyers in the country will use it. People outside our country will use it because when I'm dead and gone, these books will still be here. And it's a powerful legacy to the life that you've lived. And I really feel Nancy what the, and the reason that you and I have connected so well is I see disability law as being just like my area of law, which is medical malpractice, because how many lawyers do disability, law? Not a lot. And I would say probably less than 5%, how many lawyers do medical malpractice? Probably less than 2%. So that lawyer to lawyer referral based marketing is perfect for an attorney. Who's got a disability practice because if you ask them, and this is the big, this is the big, horrible thing that I see whenever I go to a seminar, I'll ask other lawyers, w what is the source of your highest value and best cases? And they'll say, Oh, that's easy referrals. And I'll say, okay, is it w referrals from former clients? Or is it referrals from lawyers? And about half the room will say, former clients half will say lawyers. So we've got about roughly, maybe 45% of the room with their hands saying lawyer referrals are my best source of the cases. And then I'll say, okay, how many of you have a documented system for nurturing and acquiring lawyer referrals? Not a single hand goes up. Nobody has a system for acquiring river, but why not? That's crazy. So the system that we have is devoted entirely to acquiring and nurturing lawyer referrals. And I spend a lot of time on it because I see the value on that. The typical case value that the legal fee to our firm on a single case on average is 164,000. So I'm like, why wouldn't I spend the time on this stuff? But that's how I view it, Nancy. It is a hard process. It's not easy, but if you get the right publisher with you, I use advantage media. They're phenomenal. And they do a lot of the graphic design, the copy editing and all the distribution online and offline. So they're great to work with, but finding somebody who shares your values and getting them to work with you as strategic partner, so important.

Nancy L. Cavey: 26:05

Thank you. Well, you know, I actually self published my books. So there's an easier, easier way for people to do this if they want it to do it. Um, but you're absolutely true. I mean, I, I use this book for client attraction and quite frankly, it didn't take me that long to do it, this book, uh, which is the, the disability Arista guide, put me about three years to write and a couple of different versions. And you're right, this is my masterpiece. This will be my, my legacy, but, and I use this one differently. I use this book to, to, um, basically from our referral partners, I use this book for prospective clients, but I also give my referral sources, this book, which is your rights to social security, so that they can hand out, you know, consistent with the Florida bar regulations. So, um, for, for our audience, I think that we might want to think about potentially starting out with a simple book like this, and then ultimately use it as a, as a basis for, um, uh, form referrals. So before we close, we're going to take a quick break and we're going to come back and call quickly about the power of stories and how we can use stories to attract and engage prospective clients.

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Nancy L. Cavey: 27:59

All right, welcome back. I hope you're enjoying this episode. As I said before, in my practice, what I have found, the three powerful tools that I use in my practice are my website, my newsletter, and the book. The book, really to me is the key because it establishes me as the wise woman on the social security disability mountain. It gives me credibility. I don't have to ask for credibility. I'm a published author. It gives me credibility in the medical community. Uh, but part of the credibility that, uh, I've created, not only with the book is the story that I tell about my dad and how my dad became disabled. When I was growing up, had to stop work, apply for social security, apply for his disability insurance policy. So I know what it's like to be inside the family of a disabled breadwinner. And so that's my story. And I know other people don't necessarily have that story, but I'm sure that they have a story that has motivated them to do what it is they do. And to be passionate about the practice who John, tell me for you, what is, what is the power of the story and how can we better use stories to attract and engage prospective clients?

John Fisher: 29:13

So your story is fantastic because it shares the reasons why you do what you do, because people need to know that. And if they see, Oh, that's similar to the situation that I've got, you know, my brother or my sister became disabled, then it shows that your heart is in the right place. And you're, you're, you're, you're giving advice from a position of experience and passion. And that is really important thing. So my, my story really with the power of a system is the story of June 2nd, 2010, when th th the founding partners of my firm just said, you're out and take your stuff and get out of here. I'm like, okay. All right. So, but what I'm w the reason I share that and all of my struggles, because I think stories of struggle are far more compelling than stories of success. You don't want to hear about the success stories that I've had with cases that's boring. But if I share with you my struggles and the challenges that I continue to have to this day, then it's like, you know what? That guy has got the same problems that we all have. It's, there's nothing special about it. And so what that, what that does is it builds a bond of trust. So when we do juries, when I do jury selection, I don't tell them the good stuff I tell them the bad. I said, my problem here with this case is the guy who died, an autopsy revealed he had cocaine throughout his system. And we've got no explanation for how that happened. And it's a misread all of us. I just want you to know that because when you start with honesty and vulnerability, what happens is the jury and your readers will come to your rescue and there'll be like, okay, you know, this guy was a passenger in a truck. And even though he had cocaine in his system, that's not what the cause of the wreck was. So we don't think it's relevant, but if I hid that from them, they would kill me for it. And so the reality is I would think it's far more powerful to share, to share stories of struggle and challenge, and start your book with that. Because most of the stuff you write about, nobody's going to remember a word of, they will remember your stories, and if you share your soul with them, and by that, what I mean is your stories of struggle, challenge, the failures that we've had 97% of what I do in marketing, Nancy fails miserably. That's the fact, but what I found is that 3% that actually works with is, which is lawyer to lawyer, referral based marketing, man, that works like gold. And I just can't, I'm stunned that other lawyers don't develop the same marketing systems, because it really doesn't cost that much money, but they don't. And so the reality here is what would I feel like this is a really compelling message for other lawyers with practices and disability who can market their practice to other lawyers who don't do disability.

Nancy L. Cavey: 32:01

We are absolutely right. We as social security way, lawyers are calling, um, our story to the social screen administration or our client story rather to the administrative law judge. And, um, we only have about 45 minutes at best to put on our case. And I teach my clients the concept of symptoms and functionality. We're going to tell your story in terms that the judge can understand. And so stories are important not only in, in attracting clients and retaining clients, but stories really are the key to getting their social security disability benefits. So I don't want people to be overwhelmed by the concept of a book. I want them to be thinking about the power of stories and how stories are integral in getting clients, keeping clients and winning cases. John, I want to thank you for your time today. Um, as always, you are just brutally honest and bring to the table, your experience, not only as a, as an attorney, but as, uh, a, a person who's had some tragedy in their family understands, um, what it's like to be in difficult situations. And I thank you for bringing that to the table and a free being with us today. Thanks,

John Fisher: 33:13

Nancy. Uh, my pleasure. And just, if I may, if any of your readers would like digital or physical copies of my books, all they have to do, and if you can provide them with my personal email, I will send them a signed copy of the book, or if they prefer digital, I'll send them the digital copy with my compliments. And I'm so grateful for your friendship with and supportive of what I do. And, uh, it's just an honor to be a guest on your show.

Nancy L. Cavey: 33:35

Well, thank you. And that's just one example of many of your generosity to the lawyers and to the community in general. So thanks, John. I appreciate it. You're welcome, Nancy. Thank you. Thank you. Take care.