Welcome to the Powerhouse Practice Podcast with Social Security Disability Attorney Nancy L. Cavey! The Powerhouse Practice Podcast is where you will learn the ins and outs of a highly successful Social Security Disability Practice. We cover everything from practice management to marketing, and everything in-between!
In this weeks episode - we feature Attorney Jacqueline Justice! She is a former SSA Attorney Advisor and we discuss all of the insider secrets that will help any Social Security Disability attorney with their clients claims!
RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS SHOW:
Join the Powerhouse Podcast Group: https://powerhousepractice.com/
HOW TO CONTACT JACQUELINE:
Jacqueline's Website Link: https://www.jjlegalservices.com/
As always - please like share and subscribe to our podcast for more new content! We appreciate it!
Welcome to the Powerhouse Practice Podcast with Social Security Disability Attorney Nancy L. Cavey! The Powerhouse Practice Podcast is where you will learn the ins and outs of a highly successful Social Security Disability Practice. We cover everything from practice management to marketing, and everything in-between!
In this weeks episode - we feature Attorney Jacqueline Justice! She is a former SSA Attorney Advisor and we discuss all of the insider secrets that will help any Social Security Disability attorney with their clients claims!
RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS SHOW:
Join the Powerhouse Podcast Group: https://powerhousepractice.com/
HOW TO CONTACT JACQUELINE:
Jacqueline's Website Link: https://www.jjlegalservices.com/
As always - please like share and subscribe to our podcast for more new content! We appreciate it!
[inaudible]
Speaker 2:Hey, I'm Nancy Cavey and welcome to this episode of powerhouse practice. My guest today is Jackie justice. Jackie, tell us about yourself. Why are you a social security disability lawyer?
Speaker 3:Aye. Nancy, thank you for having me. So I became my disability journey. Um, many years ago, I started with the social security administration as an attorney advisor in 2012 in late 2012, five and a half years there before I decided to go out on my oh, and I do disability because I truly think that people need the economic ability, the economic support when they're unable to work anymore. And I, I take great joy in helping people get those benefits that they deserve even when I was working with the administration. Um, I, you know, my goal was always to, as a decision writer to try to make sure that the claimant's story was told and that they felt heard even if the decision was unfavorable.
Speaker 2:Well, the hoteling a story of a person's disability, I think is the key to winning benefits. And in our discussions today, um, I have asked you to talk about, um, insider secrets that you have learn by being a part of the social security administration. Uh, so let's start with that. Um, what are some of the secrets you've learned that practitioners need to know and particularly about how, uh, the stories should be told of a client's disability?
Speaker 3:Right. And to start off, I think one of these, I don't know if it's a secret necessarily, but you know, the judges don't necessarily have read every single page of the record. So, um, as a representative it's imperative that you direct the judge to the key things in the record that support your claimant's allegations. Um, I don't know how much of a common knowledge it is, but both the ALJs and their decision writing staff operate under quotas. Right. In a sense. Right. Um, and the way that that looks like is the agency has specific time estimates for how much time the judge should spend on, uh, on a hearing reviewing the file. Um, similarly with the decision writers, each time an unbearable decision should take how much time a favorable decision should take. So with that knowledge, I think representatives can, again, make sure that they have clearly and concisely, um, explain their claimant's story pointing out exactly why the allegations match up with the medical evidence. Um, I think a lot of people, you know, just out of base, we're talking about a human being, making these decisions. And I think that there has to be a lot of, I don't want to say grace, there's still, they're still required to do a job, but, you know, understanding. Right. And I always tell my clients, I, you know, I said, I would like to pretend that this is a completely 100% objective process, but it's not. And sometimes your decision comes down to whether or not the judge had their cup of coffee for the day. Right. It is. I mean, you know, if you are foggy in the morning and you are looking at file and things just aren't quite making sense, you're gonna have that perception. Right. Um, so again, as the rep, that's your job to make your clients, um,
Speaker 2:So Jackie, I'm going to interrupt you because, um, when there are some judges who, who want a brief, there are some judges that don't want to brief. There's some judges that need briefs. Um, uh, so how important is the brief you think, uh, and as opposed to, uh, the opening that the judge asks you to give,
Speaker 3:Right. And I'm going to give the typical lawyer answer it. I bet you knew that was coming. So, um, again, kind of going back to, uh, bending the parent, look, judges, aren't reading every single page of the record, this isn't to say that they're not reviewing it right. But, um, some judges find the briefs to just be more work for them, right. And while a good summary can be helpful at the end of the day, the judge doesn't agree with your summary of the evidence. They don't agree with it. And so, um, I think that just comes down to knowing your region, knowing your specific judge, um, and understanding the complexities of your case, right? Because there are some cases where it's fairly straight forward, you can make the claim easily, um, and you don't really need to walk the judge through it. Um, but if it's more complex and there are a lot of, um, nuances, a brief is going to be really helpful, right? If you've got 1500 and 2000 pages of medical records, because your client has a complex medical history, by all means, summarize it at the end of the day, it's at least going to help you, right. Hey,
Speaker 2:I'll help you prepare and get your head around the case. So let me ask you another question. Um, uh, in my particular practice, uh, what I do to get my clients ready for hearing is, um, I've shot a mock video shot, a mock social security disability hearing. Um, I actually have shot a very lengthy video on the direct exam questions and how to answer questions correctly, uh, and truthfully, uh, spending a lifetime on symptoms and functionality. And that, of course we practice and I played the judge and they play themselves. Um, and we work our way through that hearing, uh, preparation process based on your, your years of experience and, and, and writing decisions. And I'm sure listening to the hearings, um, what, what suggestions do you have for us to, uh, improve our, uh, client preparation so that they can really become the storyteller of their story about why they're entitled to their social security disability benefits?
Speaker 3:Right. I love that idea of walking through, um, uh, hearing my in my own practice and going back to, you know, listening to hearings and observing hearings, um, sometimes in a more organic, um, hearing is better. So there is such a thing as over-preparing your client, and I'm thinking about this mostly in terms clients that are experiencing mental health symptoms, right? The hearing process is nerve-wracking to begin with, I mean, these, these individuals don't have much experience with the legal system necessarily. Um, you might be talking about clients that have, um, you know, lower education and things like this, or they're not, um, as experienced. So doing a mock hearing can be really helpful. However, if a client just finds the hearing unbearable, um, and has a panic attack or starts crying in the middle of the hearing, I mean, that's part of their story, right? And, um, so I do, you know, run through questions. I give them examples. I give them general ideas of what, what the judge is looking for, what the purpose of the testimony is and counsel them in that regard. Um, so you know what to expect, right? Um, and however you want to format that, whether it's, you know, setting up a mock interview, uh, as a video and allowing them to watch it or holding a mock, um, or hearing, excuse me, or, or holding a mock hearing with them, I think is great. You know, I think that's a good idea. Um,
Speaker 2:What other suggestions do you have for, for getting a client ready? And of course, um, you know, w we've got the range of client, as you said, the one who may have psychological or psychiatric issues, the one is really, really nervous. The one who just may not make a good witness, but are there some general tips that you could give us based on your experience?
Speaker 3:Right. So I, even when I do my intake, part of my intake is going over what the hearing looks like, right. So they know, um, because it can be intimidating whether it's in person or on the phone these days, um, there are, there are these people in the room and you have no idea what's going on. Right. So making sure that they know everybody's role, um, and also letting them know that it's not necessarily a hostile thing, even though the judge might not come off as
Speaker 2:Warm. And yeah, we all know who you're talking about.
Speaker 3:So just again, reinforcing and, and also listening to their right. Um, just again, making sure that they feel heard, you know, I think that that is number one, because whether the person ultimately is disabled or not, they're struggling and they want to be heard, they need to be heard. Right.
Speaker 2:So, um, one of the other questions that I wanted to ask you as an, as an insider, um, is now that we're doing hearings by, uh, by phone, I know I'm not seeing any difference in my win rate, uh, or loss ratio than I did while I had those hearings, um, uh, in person, um, though credibility decisions are really important and social security cases. To what extent do you think that the phone hearings are, or are allowing judges to aggress credibility issues? Or is that something that you think they're really picking up based on discrepancies in the medical records, as opposed to their ability to see, uh, the claimant and draw conclusions about their credibility? Yeah.
Speaker 3:These, I don't know how you're prepping your clients for phone hearings, but, um, I think it makes it really difficult. Some of the body language, um, and nuance is just don't come across over the phone. So I'm always letting my clients know, you know, if you have physical issues and you can't sit that long, um, tell the judge that if you're taking this hearing in your recliner, because you have to, um, recline say it, right, you have to articulate those things. The judge can't see those things. Um, but one of the issues that I have seen in general, um, are judges making negative assumptions about things in the record without seeking clarification, right? And whether it's by phone or in person, you have to address those. And I think doing it over the phone gives you less of an opportunity. Um, for example, if there's something in the record where the claimant say, oh, I can't sit for more than 20 minutes. Um, and in the hearing, it's easy to see if there's forming in their chair or they ask to stand up. Um, but at home, when you can make yourself more comfortable, maybe you can sit through the whole hearing and that's, um, so I think it's important to take note of those things. It's the judge might make a negative assumption about and address them, right? Whether it's in your brief, whether it's during your client's testimony, um, whatever it is. Right. Um, I recently had a client who, um, there was a comment in the record about trimming a tree
Speaker 2:And falling off of a ladder right now,
Speaker 3:When you talk to him about it, what actually happened, it was a footstool, any bell rang to get on it, to do the work. He didn't actually complete any of the work, but him trying to get up on this step stool and falling actually reinforces the idea that he has poor balance and, and this and that. Right,
Speaker 2:Right, right.
Speaker 3:The judge was like, I don't care. But still, those are just the sort of issues that you have to, um, address whether you're in-person or on the phone, the judge is gonna make, you know, negative or positive assumptions, depending on again, depending on whether they've had their coffee for the day. Okay.
Speaker 2:So Jackie, we'll take a break here for a minute and we'll come back.
Speaker 1:[inaudible].
Speaker 2:All right. Welcome back, Jackie, what other tips do you have for us as an insider? Either in terms of things we should do mistakes. We're making, uh, give us the skinny here. Okay.[inaudible]
Speaker 3:So one of the things is a decision writer that I would always comment about, um, to my colleagues was just the fact that a lot of reps don't know their clients. Right. Um, I mean, a surprising number. Um, it sounds like,
Speaker 2:So what, so I'm going to stop you. What do you mean? Because I, I think I know my clients well, but I'll tell you, there are times I get surprised and hearing with things in their mouth and it's like, oh my gosh. So, I mean, I think to tell me about that, not knowing them versus the, oh my gosh, just what came out of their mouth type situation.
Speaker 3:So, I mean, obviously there are tons of things that your claim is, is going to forget to tell you. But, um, I mean, and I mean, just in, in hearing how you conduct your hearing prep, it sounds like you really get to know, um, your clients, which is fantastic. And I think that that's, um, a model that a lot of people should follow, but I mean, I have definitely seen situations where you can tell that the rep has just met their client 20 minutes
Speaker 2:Before the hearing.
Speaker 3:I mean, when I'm hearing stories from the reception people, like, yeah, they were looking for their client, they didn't know, you know, where they were. And, um, and that's problematic. Right. And as a lawyer, right. It's kind of loitering one oh one that you should know the record better than anybody else in the room. Right. And, um, that's one of the things that I'm constantly trying to improve is my ability to, um, none of the record inside and out be able to point to specific things. Um, so it's an ongoing thing I think we can all learn from, but I see that. And I think a lot of it are, are these larger national firms where they just farm out things. Um, but whether you're taking, um, things from those sort of referral sources or, or not like it's all well and good, we all have to make a living, but take the time. Right. Pick up the phone early and often talk to your client. Um, you know, I like to, I like to do things. I, I try and contact, um, my client as early, as, as possible. Cause I do take some referrals. Right. Um, and just say, Hey, this is, this is who I am. This is what the hearing is going to look like, tell me your story right before we even get into and just let them talk. Right. Um, before I even get into the nitty-gritty. Okay. So which provider have you seen? I think a lot of us can do it very clinically where it's like, okay, give me a list of your providers. What medication are you taking? How far can you walk? You know? Um, and we do that two minutes before the hearing and that's not how,
Speaker 2:So I'm going to put you on the spot here and I'm going to really pull back the curtain. So do the judges really talk to each other about us lawyers? And so they said, and I'm sure the staff does, but let, let us, let us, let us hear this from the inside. Okay. I mean, we
Speaker 3:All talk, right.
Speaker 2:There's a song called that, right.
Speaker 3:If it's casual, I mean, I've, I remember this story that went around the office that somebody had bought, brought their emotional support chicken. I mean, you know, just, this is I, I work in state. Okay. People, we do things differently.
Speaker 2:Right. I got my in-laws are from there, so I got it.
Speaker 3:Um, but no, of course. Right. And it's not, um, you know, it's not necessarily in a disrespectful way, it's, you know, this, this representative or that representative didn't provide me with this information. So now I've got to schedule a supplemental hearing to get this information, and that's really frustrating. Right. Um, and again, you know, this representative clearly didn't know what the record contained. Right. Um, otherwise they wouldn't have asked that darn headache question. Um, I have also seen a number of times where representatives simply aren't asking any questions of their clients. Right. And I just always, I, yeah, I know they think that,
Speaker 2:So sometimes, um, you know, I'm raising my finger and I'm saying sometimes that's deceiving because sometimes I don't know when to ask questions because I think the judge has covered what they want to cover. And I'm afraid that if I start asking questions, I'm going to open up a bigger can of worms. So explain that tension and what your recommendations are, because sometimes I'm tempted to ask all sorts of questions. And I get that look from the judge. Like, don't ask another question
Speaker 3:And that's, and that's it, it is a tight rope. And I think that that just comes with experience. It comes with again, knowing your claim right. And knowing the judge. Right. Cause if you know that they're just asking questions to clarify things and they're already gonna pay the case. Sometimes it is best to just no way shut up. Right.
Speaker 2:That's what I realize. If I don't ask any questions, it's not because I don't want to know it's because the judge is telling me not to ask you the questions, but sometimes there are these judges, like a judge has never appeared in front of him or a judge that you do know, and they're not asking questions and you get a little suspicious, but you're not sure what you're supposed to do. That's that's like a Twilight zone of questions, right? Yeah,
Speaker 3:It is. And um, I sometimes have to have that conversation with some clients of mine because, and this happens, I think, particularly at the VE testimony, right. Where sometimes reps don't, um, pose any questions. I have a clientele, like why? Um, because you don't want to like, just, you don't need to just, just let it ride because with the judges, RFCs, he he's presented, you're gonna, you're gonna grid. We don't need to talk about it anymore. Right. Um, so, uh, yeah, it is a push pull. And I think that going back to prepping your client, understanding what it is, what the points are that need to be made, that's where the emphasis should be. Right. Did you, um, did the, and if the judge is going to do that for you all the better,
Speaker 2:You know, I'm going to go backwards a second. Um, one of the things we have been doing over the last number of years is in our initial application, actually going through the five-step sequential evaluation and explaining page and verse and, and getting residual functional capacity forms, uh, uh, to leave, hopefully no question in, uh, the DDS is mine about what the basis or the theory of our claim might be. And of course, if the, if a claim gets denied, I know that the judge reviews the file. Do you think that that makes a difference either at the initial application stage or ultimately when you get in front of a judge where you you've kind of shown the judge or, or show DDS your theory of the case?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I absolutely do. Um, one of the first cases that I took, um, uh, when I started my own practice, um, that was my move. Right. I was helping with the initial application, um, which I don't do all that often these days, but, um, and I said, look, you need to go and talk to your provider before we, um, deal with this, because these are the questions that I have. And I guarantee you that that was why that claim was paid because her history was so confusing that a DDS worker wouldn't have gotten it right. The impairments she was experiencing, um, were fairly uncommon, um, and kind of nebulous, her providers were still trying to figure out what was going on. So I definitely think at the initial level, if you can lay that groundwork and then moving up to the hearing level, um, that can help you lay the timeline right. And establish that disability going back to the AOD. So I definitely think if you're taking applications at the hearing level, um, or, um, if you're taking initial applications, excuse me. Um, I think that's imperative. If you can get a provider to write a statement. Absolutely do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So as we're coming out of COVID with, uh, the increasing number of vaccinations, tell me, um, what are your goals for the rest of the year? What do you want to try to achieve in your practice?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I actually, um, am really focused on just growing my practice in general. Um, and so my goal, um, is to kind of double the number of, of, cause I don't have my, I split my, um, practice. I also do child welfare work. Um, but to double the disability clients that I have, um, I feel like I have that capacity, but as a pro you know, from a professional standpoint, I also want to learn how to more effectively, um, question VES. So, um, I think that there's a lot of okay. Lack of understanding about what they do and what they actually know and how they're basing their opinions, that I've really kind of committed myself to doing more of a deep dive
Speaker 2:On that. So how are you, what are your plans for trying to double your practice this year?
Speaker 3:So I have definitely been building my network, right. Um, joining Facebook groups with other disability, um, practitioners, joining organizations, such as, um, Nasker, um, and enrolling in their referral program, um, and doing that sort of thing. Um, I will also start this year, um, to reach out to more local organizations, um, that I can kind of volunteer with, um, and kind of meet people that maybe need help applying for disability benefits, um, working with, um, organizations that serve, um, disabled homeless populations, things like that.
Speaker 2:Well, I think we all feel that the, the world of[inaudible] is, um, is a challenge for all of us regardless. I think it was the years of our experience. Um, so what's your specific game plan for trying to up your game in dealing with vocational evaluation, uh, testimony,
Speaker 3:Um, learning how to use resources such as O net, um, to kind of understand these jobs of these V that these VAs are testifying about. For example, uh, last week I had a VIII testified to a few jobs and I asked him about a sit-stand option. Like, what did that actually
Speaker 2:Look
Speaker 3:Like? You know, for these particular jobs, right? How, what sort of workstation, how, how does that look like? And I finally got him to contend like, yeah, actually these jobs wouldn't really apply if you have a sit stance options, like if you needed to sit stand, but just wouldn't really work
Speaker 2:Based on your inside scoop as a decision writer, what have you seen the mistakes that were made by attorneys in, in cross-examining a bee as opposed to not examining them, but cross-examining them? Um, I think
Speaker 3:The biggest thing is, and it's different and it's difficult to do right. Is to understand where they're getting their information from. Right. And, um, it can be, it can be hard to do, but just asking those questions. And I think so many times attorneys don't challenge the V E on where they're getting their information and what is actually forming the basis of their opinion. So dive deeper, you know, the, the VTE says, oh, this is based on my knowledge and experience and what have you. Okay. But what is that, you know, and what do you mean? Right. Um, and questioning them on what that job, you know, if they're returning jobs, what do those jobs actually look like? How are they actually performed? Because at the end of the day, as you dive into it, you'll see that yes, this job generally might be available, but if you're breaking it down to the claimant's specific needs, the specific RFCs in front of the judge, um, that actually is reduced quite a lot. Right. Um, and so dive deeper, just that, that would be my encouragement for peoples to dive deeper question what those jobs look like. And a lot of attorneys, don't a lot of reps don't.
Speaker 2:So if you were to give our audience one exclusive takeaway tip, based on your experience, what would it be?
Speaker 3:Hmm. Aside from know your case, um, know your judge, do what you can to find out about your judge, even simple things like, do they walk that brief? Right. Um, things like, do they prefer to question the claimant first or do they want you to direct the testimony? Um, because all of those things can impact the experience your client has, um, how you question them. Um, and there are resources. I, I, you know, I'm trying to, I'm trying to think, um, I think disability, judges.com will get show you pay rates for these judges. Um, even that can be really helpful and what their agree rate is. Um, you can find all of those, those things and kind of spot what kind of challenges you're gonna have, um, with that judge. So yeah, no, you're no, you're a judge, right? Because then you can tailor your prep. You can tailor, um, your arguments for that judge. Um, lots of ways to do that, grow your network, you know, so you can learn from other practitioners in your area, um, that have experienced with these judges, you know,
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to expand on your, your tip because one of the things that my office does is on the hearing notice they actually write the, um, approval rate for the particular judge, if I don't know that particular judge. Um, and of course you can always, um, check out the comments that people have written about the particular judge. And that will certainly give you a clue as to how those hearings go and, and their proclivity. So you're right. There are resources out there. Some are certainly statistically valid, others are not, but they do provide us with insightful information about the particular judge. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Take advantage of that. And as far as talking to colleagues, I mean, it can be difficult because, um, you know, I have hearings, especially because everything is going virtual or phone right now. I have a hearing scheduled out of the Cleveland office. Like I don't work with, I've worked with half the judges here in, you know, in this area, but I don't know, Cleveland judges. Right. So,
Speaker 2:Well, we've got resources that we can find that information out. Great. Well, thank you for your time this afternoon. And it's a bit our pleasure to have, uh, Jackie justice talk with us about the insider view from the judges office in a decision, a writing process. So thanks again.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me, Nancy. My pleasure.