Welcome to the Powerhouse Practice Podcast with Social Security Disability Attorney Nancy L. Cavey! The Powerhouse Practice Podcast is where you will learn the ins and outs of a highly successful Social Security Disability Practice. We cover everything from practice management to marketing, and everything in-between!
In this weeks episode - we feature Attorney Katie Roe! She will talk to us about how she has managed to run a very lean aka very cost effective practice and be successful while doing so!
RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS SHOW:
Join the Powerhouse Podcast Group: https://powerhousepractice.com/
HOW TO CONTACT KATIE:
Katie's Website Link: https://sacdisabilitylaw.com/
As always - please like share and subscribe to our podcast for more new content! We appreciate it!
Welcome to the Powerhouse Practice Podcast with Social Security Disability Attorney Nancy L. Cavey! The Powerhouse Practice Podcast is where you will learn the ins and outs of a highly successful Social Security Disability Practice. We cover everything from practice management to marketing, and everything in-between!
In this weeks episode - we feature Attorney Katie Roe! She will talk to us about how she has managed to run a very lean aka very cost effective practice and be successful while doing so!
RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS SHOW:
Join the Powerhouse Podcast Group: https://powerhousepractice.com/
HOW TO CONTACT KATIE:
Katie's Website Link: https://sacdisabilitylaw.com/
As always - please like share and subscribe to our podcast for more new content! We appreciate it!
Hey, this is Nancy Cavey. Welcome to our next episode of Powerhouse Practice. My special guest is a true solo. U h, Katie is in from Sacramento and she's going to tell us the interesting story about how she journeyed from California to Minnesota and back and where she ended up and how she ended up, where she ended up. How's that? So, Katie, when I t alked to you before we got started, I said, Hey, you're a T ommy. And I think y ou're a little taken back i n that. So you want to tell us what a Tommy is a nd, and how you ended up where you're at.
Katie Roe:Uh, Tommy is a university of St. Thomas graduate. Um, we definitely are a family. So wherever you find each other around the country, you are a Tommy and you're part of that family. Um, and you were staying here from, uh, went to Hamlin. So definitely there's a consortium of schools there that, um, we all share a common bond. Um, and originally from St uh, from Minnesota, third generation, Tommy grew up in the San Francisco bay area, but moved back to Minnesota for undergrad. Um, and then it was a bit cold. So moved back to the San Francisco bay area to get my master's degree in public administration. Um, absolutely loved my administrative law course, which was taught by a local judge and then found my way up to Sacramento after finishing grad school to complete my law degree
Nancy L. Cavey:Now, um, I, the reason I moved back to Florida was because of the cold, but I was tired of, uh, plugging, uh, my car into a block heater and, uh, and shivering. So I get why you moved to California, but one of the things that intrigues me about you is that you work for a very large, uh, firm and decided, I guess, that it was time to go solo. So tell us what led you from the big firm to being a true solo?
Katie Roe:Um, so I work for actually worker's comp firmed first defense, um, and about a year, year and a half into that, um, I had my first daughter who had some health issues, which is born, um, so decided that larger firm environment wasn't the right fit for me, for the flexibility that I needed for my family. Um, and then actually a law school professor who ran both a social security and worker's comp sensation practice. That was a bit smaller. Um, asked me if I'd come work for her, just a few hours here and there that quickly became part-time. Then it became full time within a year, and then it became handling the entire social security practice. Wow. And so that's how I got my feet wet. Um, I w an attorney had left and I immediately had social security hearings, and I'd done a little bit as a certified law student. So I knew I was getting into, and I enjoy that. Um, and then, you know, life happens another year later, a second baby comes. Um, and I decided at that point, I was looking at whether I wanted to take over that practice as they wanted to retire, or did they want to start something new? Um, and I decided that my real interest and heart was in social security disability, not the workers comp. So I I'm off for, to take the small practice that was left to social security at that point. And I started my own, and that was, um, in 2000, January, 2017. So I started with about 17 cases and it's, it's, it's grown quite
Nancy L. Cavey:A bit. Well, congratulations. So one of the themes of this episode is going to be, uh, about being a solo practitioner. My course started as a solo and I built a firm. And at one point I even had, uh, had four attorneys and 20 employees. And now I'm back to sort of being a solo, but with lots of paralegal. So tell us about that journey from going from affirm to being a solo, um, what led you to do that and what were the initial problems that you had and how did you address those?
Katie Roe:Um, the reason I chose to do it was to keep the practice small initially as I had little kids at home. Um, so I literally started with eight hours a week and then built it up as it grew. I wanted to grow slowly. Part of it was my personality type and wanting to control all aspects of the practice, especially as I was figuring out what I wanted my practice to look like. Um, and the challenging part was more, the business I'm running a business, the administrative part, I didn't know how to get into the social security system because I had had, uh, even though I had a log in because I had an assistant that would do that, and I was doing the brief writing and going to hearings. So it, I gave myself a grace period, um, of, you know, four or five months before I even started taking clients, just to figure out the nitty gritty details of how to administrative administratively run a practice, um, before I gear it up and it's grown. Um, and I, I can totally see your story of going from a true solo to a large staff. Um, and I'm really at that inflection point where I could easily take on a staff. Um, but I'm choosing to remain solo at least for this point. And even if that means, um, turning cases away, because right now that's, that's where I need to be.
Nancy L. Cavey:So I'm going to give you, uh, ask you a hard question. Why, why you remain solo when you have an opportunity perhaps to, to grow the practice. Um,
Katie Roe:What the part of it's the way I run the practice, um, in what I call lean law. Um, I started my practice with$5,000 and that got me through the first year, um, until I could really start cashing in, um, I've found ways to grow my practice. I've known other attorneys who had a couple staff people at this point with their case loads. And I had been able to maintain that as a solo, um, through outsourcing, um, I use a virtual receptionist service that, um, does my intakes and my phone calls, who is your virtual receptionist? I use back office Betties and I've been with him for over a year. Um, I started with just a small, the smallest plan answering my phone calls. And now I am at the highest level, which is platinum, which is unlimited minutes, um, virtual assistance services and, um, a team of 40 senior legal specialists, um, intake specialists that I don't share with a ton of other firms.
Nancy L. Cavey:So are they social security exclusive or do they have other areas of law or legal,
Katie Roe:Um, exclusive, but they handle all different types of law practices.
Nancy L. Cavey:Yeah, I, I used Smith who was, uh, is an alternative. So, um, what do you, how do you think that has given you an advantage by using the virtual intake people?
Katie Roe:Um, it allowed my practice to grow substantially without taking on staff before I was ready to hire, um, staff myself. Um, because as opposed to me answering the phone and not being able to answer the phone, missing phone calls, they are able to capture a lot more intakes than I could and get them immediately scheduled for designated times for me to follow up with them. They screen out a lot of my phone calls. They return calls from me. So it saves me a lot of time, um, and helps me pick out good cases.
Nancy L. Cavey:So, um, I'm sure people are wondering, well, did you have to train them to do things the way that you wanted them to do? Did that work out? Were there problems? How did you shake all that
Katie Roe:Out? It's definitely a learning curve as they is. You learn how they work and they learn your practice and it's ongoing. Um, so there's constant feedback, um, between the company and me about issues that we're having, um, and they have a script to use. So it's an ongoing process for sure.
Nancy L. Cavey:You do training with them on a, any kind of a regular schedule.
Katie Roe:No, not on a regular schedule. It's more of a going back and forth. Um, initially there was a where I provided a lot of information and a script, but over the last year, we've just been fine tuning the information that the receptionist provide to my colors.
Nancy L. Cavey:So w what happens after a person calls, uh, the, uh, and deals with a virtual, um, receptionist intake person?
Katie Roe:Yeah. So the receptionist person, um, has a different script for whether they're it's an existing client. Um, they will try to patch that person through to me right away if it's a current client, if not, they'll offer to schedule a follow-up phone appoint for us, or just leave a message for me to get back. As soon as I can, if it's an intake, they have a screening tool to use to see if it's the type of case I might take. Um, and they fill out a form, get the person on my schedule through acuity. I do review that, and sometimes people slip through, um, the cases I won't take in back office Betties is great though about following up with them, explaining to providing them a referral and then canceling the appointment. So they don't waste time and their time as well. Um, and then they, they do have special rules. They know if the social security administration calls it, regardless of whether it's, you know, Fridays when I hide from colors and work on briefs, or if it's after my, my general hours, they do always put social security through to me. Um, so they have a script that they use.
Nancy L. Cavey:So what happens, uh, next in your practice? Uh, someone has called, um, and has dealt with your intake. People they've been scheduled, what happens next as a lean solo?
Katie Roe:So, so we have a phone appointments, 15 minutes. Um, I example, yesterday, I ha I saw one come through that was scheduled for today. Um, but it mentioned that it was a veteran. Um, and I take almost all veterans applying for social security, disability insurance turns out he was a fifth, uh, 60 year old, a hundred percent disabled veteran retiring from the post office. Um, but just seeing those words, you know, um, I thought, oh, good case. And I called him immediately and got him signed up, uh, in a 20 minute phone call. So usually we have a phone appointment and I can feel out whether it's a case I want to take. Um, sometimes I ask for medical records, if I'm on the fence, based on their age medical condition, I'll send them a residual functional capacity form taped to their doctors. Um, but I've recently gotten to the point where my practice is so busy because I'm showing up first page Google for social security that I'm not, I'm not doing as much of that to requesting medical records. Um, it's more my new rules kind of, if I, if you're not a direct referral, um, in which case I'll do more research on your case, if you're a direct referral to me, but if you just someone calling from finding me on Google, um, if I can't tell within the first 10 minutes of talking to you that this is absolutely a case I want to take, like you're over 55, you're 60, the type of work you've done, good work history. I'm probably going to just not take that case. Um, so I'm getting more restrictive in my practice with my colors.
Nancy L. Cavey:And so, um, out of curiosity, when you refer them out, you get a referral fee.
Katie Roe:Okay. N a D pens generally. No, if it's a case I think is really good, um, I will send it to a colleague, um, or for them directly. And then yes. Um, with that attorney, they will send me a referral fee if it's a case they've taken when I'm otherwise, if it's someone that I think is more tire kicking and, you know, provide them to an Oscar to help find an attorney near them.
Nancy L. Cavey:So then tell me what happens next. You decide to take the case. So as a lean mean solo, what are you doing next?
Katie Roe:Um, I have an intake sheet form. It's a fillable PDF. Um, I also have my legal services agreement at 1696. It takes me maybe 10 minutes to get those filled out. Um, I was almost completely virtual pre COVID, um, but I was still meet with people in person for the initial meeting. Obviously don't do that now. And I don't intend on going back to that. I have a nice office downtown, but, um, I use that more for my Google business listing than anything else. When I decide that I'm going to accept a case, um, I am almost completely virtual, so I will send the documents by email, have a fillable PDF for the intake sheet, with all the information I need to either file the application or do an appeal. Uh, I sent the legal services agreement and the 1696, I do have some clients who don't have internet access. And so we, I will send a packet to them in the mail with a pre stamped on envelope. That's addressed to come back to me, um, for those documents. And what I was saying was before COVID, I would always meet with people for that first initial appointment. Um, and I've realized that's not really necessary. And a lot of my clients don't want that hassle either they're disabled, they don't necessarily want to come into my office. So pre COVID, I would go into the office one day a week to meet with clients. Now it's a hundred percent virtual, but I still have my office. Um, and I can explain that later, but it's for Google business, um, local listings. It's how I show up on the first page of Google is by having that central address and having good reviews. Um, but actually COVID has allowed me to really scale my practice and take on more cases because I'm not traveling to my office to meet with people for the initial and the prehearing appointment. And I'm doing all my hearings by phone.
Nancy L. Cavey:Yeah, absolutely. Um, so we all know getting medical records is a pain in our rear ends. Um, as the lean mean virtual person, what are your secrets for medical records and managing that process?
Katie Roe:That's a process I'm still working on. I have tried using a service for that. Um, and I did try that for several months and I found that it wasn't, uh, I wasn't saving time. Um, I was still having to do a lot of followup. Um, right now I do have templates for all the major medical facilities near me. I've done this so often that I, I know now how, you know, who's going to take longer where I send everything. So I have templates, letter requests and authorizations. Um, I use Clio for my case management system. Um, and for Cleo, I create a task for every medical record requests that I send out and have it calendar the follow-up one month later to if I haven't gotten those records. So that's how I keep track of it. Keeping track of the records was really difficult for me until I started using the tasks feature of Cleo. Um, but that's the next area of my practice that I would love to outsource. And I've thought about that. And I think it really does have to be a virtual assistant that I train as opposed to a larger company. If I can say it release point is the one that I've tried before. Um, so my next step is to find a virtual assistant just for medical right backwards.
Nancy L. Cavey:So tell me how you're handling IAS requests for reconsiderations, and then we'll talk about hearings, but how are you handling those, um, your practice?
Katie Roe:So when I receive a denial letter, I have a template email that I sent to my client. Um, I do communicate with my clients primarily by email and I request that of them. And it has a list of exactly what I need. So I'll say all medical appointments since say September 1st, 20, 20, any future scheduled appointments, any changes to your medical condition or new condition in your current medications. And then they generally respond quickly to that email because I sit in as an incentive, I'll say your deadline is such and such state. However, I will file it as soon as I receive the following information from you. Um, and so I get that back and it really doesn't take me very long now to file appeals since I've been doing this for so long. Um, and we'll get that submitted electronically. Of course,
Nancy L. Cavey:Of course the real ultimate issue is, um, preparing for the hearing, preparing your trial, brief, preparing your client, um, how has that working in your practice?
Katie Roe:Um, it was working really smoothly before COVID and I've gone easily doubled the number of hearings in the last few months, um, because yeah, they're setting them so fast right now. Right. So I do have a system place. So as soon as I see that the hearing is set, I pull the exhibit file. Um, I do make a list of all the records that they already have. I look at the request for hearing to see what treatment the client had given me, um, back then. And then I also send an email to the client. That's a template saying just a heads up your cases, your hearing has been set for such and such date. The next step is that I will be reviewing your exhibit file and requesting updated medical information from you. You'll get the notice of a hearing in the, in the next week in the mail, um, that helps stop some phone calls and emails coming through, sending them that proactive email. Um, and then this is what takes a lot of time, honestly, is the going through exhibit files, seeing what they already have, and then comparing that to the request for hearing and the client's follow up email saying, yes, I've treated at these additional places and then doing the records requests. And then I do do a brief for every single case. It's been hard right now with the number of hearings doubled. I've tried outsourcing some briefs, um, which I don't like doing because I like, that's how I get to know a case really well, but, um, I've had some success. I've had some failure with that. Um, I always still review the brief and the exhibit file. You can give your
Nancy L. Cavey:Client access to the, uh, era so they can look at their, uh, the records I don't, uh, when you're doing the brief, because you're, um, um, you know, a solo, are you using any type of voice activated, dictating equipment to, uh, do your medical surgeries or prepare your briefs?
Katie Roe:No, but I have thought about that because I've used it in the past. I do have a brief template that I've created and I tweak, so I'm not recreating the brief each time. Right. I'm putting information for their specific case. Yeah.
Nancy L. Cavey:Um, so when we started you, you said that one of the things that you learned or had to learn was the management of, um, a law practice and both you and I use a book called profits first. So I'm going to let you tell our audience what that book is and how it's helped you, uh, in your practice. I
Katie Roe:Feel like I should grab it if you, um, cause I'm going to mispronounce the author's name, but it's um, Mike, Mike, Mike M we'll put it in Charlotte, Mike Malevich or something. Yeah. I can actually see it from my desk. Right. But, um, it's not specific for law firms it's for running any business. And when I started my practice, I had one bank account, uh, which was fine when I was only getting paid on a few cases, but then it got to the point where I'm going to pay in a lot of cases, which is great. Um, and so it was figuring out how much should I pay myself? How much do need to save for taxes and what is a reasonable amount of money to be spending on operating costs. So profit first gives you a framework which you can then tweak. Um, and it's like the old fashioned envelope system where it, but instead you're using bank accounts and I have four separate bank accounts with the same bank, with different names on them. Um, and the titles would be operating expenses. Um, I have a tax slash step and step as a self employed pension fund. Um, and then I have income. Um, and then I have a fourth one that's a rotating. Um, Mike would say, it's your profit account that you put it up 3% into and pay. I tried that for a year. Didn't work for me. Um, I think what's important to know, but problem first is that you can tweak it. So I, whenever I get paid on a case, so let's just say it's 59 0 2, because it's a full fee with the fee taken out. Um, I tweak it. I put right now I put 45% in for my tax slash SEP account because I'm maximizing my separate every year. Um, I pay myself to the income about 45% and then I keep 10% for operating expenses, the operating expenses, depending on the time of year and the balance of my operating account range from 10 to 20%. And then I will reduce now I'm paying myself,
Nancy L. Cavey:But so did you figure this out yourself or did you use one of the profit first, um, certified, um, um, assistance in doing this?
Katie Roe:I figure this out myself over about three years of tweaking the percentages, but I started with the authors recommended percentages based on the book and then adjusted it as I get to know my estimated tax amounts better and my, what I'm doing to fund my retirement.
Nancy L. Cavey:And so, um, how did your accountant like your, um, use of profits first? Because some accounts are like,
Katie Roe:So I am my own accountant perfectly in practice. And so I am set up as a sole proprietor. I use QuickBooks for self-employed and turbo tax. So I, um, all my profit first accounts are linked to my QuickBooks and directly input that information. Maybe once a week, I go in for about five minutes and categorize all the credits and debits. Um, and then it does the rest for me.
Nancy L. Cavey:Uh, so how did your banker react when you said I want to set up three more accounts because my banker looked at me like, well, you know,
Katie Roe:It looked a bit surprised. Yeah. But I worked with a small business banker at us bank. Um, and they more than happy to set it up for me and I'll make a counselor free.
Nancy L. Cavey:Cool, cool. Um, so what tips do you have for those people who are thinking about jumping into the deep end, um, and starting their own practice as a true solo?
Katie Roe:Um, I would recommend keeping things as lean as possible, um, initially to start out because there is such a lag and when you get paid on social security cases, but it's something that I've continued as I've grown. Um, I tried to keep a lean practice to optimize my profits cause it can be a very profitable business to be in. Um, and by there's a book I read and I, um, it's called the toilet paper entrepreneur. Um, and I read that when I was just starting my practice and it, it really inspired me to practice lean law. Um,
Nancy L. Cavey:So, um, to put you on the spot, um, what mistakes have you made that you would tell any person who was thinking about doing what you were doing to avoid and on the flip side, what things did you do? Right.
Katie Roe:Um, I made some very close near misses when, and I was starting out and I thought I needed to pay a lot for marketing. Um, I think as a new attorney, you're going to be really bombarded with, um, certain organic, uh, companies to build your website for you. That's another way I built my own website, um, with WordPress and it wasn't until I was about three years in that I hired someone to start, um, modern, uh, managing my website for me. Um, so don't get sucked into needing thinking. You need to pay a lot of money for marketing the way I've grown. My practice is from referrals from worker's compensation attorneys, um, referrals from other clients, family, friends, and then from your Google, my business listing, which is completely free. Um, and you can get first page of Google without paying for any ads. I've never paid for an ad. And by just encouraging your clients to leave you reviews when you know, you've won their case and they're happy. Right.
Nancy L. Cavey:Um, so the permit is, um, can you give us an example of a near miss?
Katie Roe:Um, I was very close to signing a contract to pay, um, an organization about six to$700 to ma to build my website and manage it. Um, and that was an ongoing contract and I really couldn't afford it at the time, but I thought that's what I had to do. And so I decided not to, and I built it myself and it took, you know, a couple of years to get a steady stream of clients in. Um, but that was definitely a near miss. Um, I'm so glad I didn't do that. And if you go on some of the lawyer, Facebook groups, um, it sounds like other people have made that mistake, um, and regretted it later or had that near miss.
Nancy L. Cavey:So do you do anything like a YouTube video?
Katie Roe:No, I blog, um, but not consistent consistently enough, but I have some blogs pages, especially my one on residual functional capacity and 10 tips for your social security hearing that are, um, high S uh, search hits for people, um, that they find my website because of those two blog posts that I have. Um, and I love to do videos in the next year on my website as well.
Nancy L. Cavey:So, um, if you were, uh, going to be expanding your practice, um, how would you be doing that? In other words, you, you, in, in the world of COVID able to, um, have the luxury, if you will have more time because we're not traveling, uh, to, um, to hearings. Uh, uh, so our, our time allocation, I think is different. I don't know if it's going to stay the same, uh, after COVID diminishes, but, so what do you see in terms of how you would grow your practice in this environment? Uh, either virtually or in any other way?
Katie Roe:Um, I think the next step would be staffing wise and it would be someone dedicated to case management of just working up the cases prior to a hearing medical records. I mean, that's, that's what, um, drives me crazy. And, um, it'd be hiring someone probably part-time, um, working virtually at their own leisure to be responsible for getting all those medical workers and updating the files. Um, but you know, I thought about in the future, a partnership with someone who wanted to run their practice similar, um, to me, because I have more cases, more cases coming in that I could handle. Um, and so for now I refer those out. Um, but yeah, I'm not sure I feel like I'm at a crossroads right now.
Nancy L. Cavey:That's what I was, I was curious to, um, you know, I was thinking, well, you know, one of the things perhaps you could do is to find like minded individuals in share resources, uh, and, um, you know, hire a full-time virtual case manager that you would perhaps split among, among yourself. Um, um, and I was just kind of thinking about the resources that you could potentially split with other like-minded individuals in an effort to grow your practice, but do you have, uh, do you have, uh, uh, you know, profits first always talks about the one-year plan, the three-year plan, the five-year, what is, what is your plan for the next year, three years and five years?
Katie Roe:My next plan, my plan for the next year is to maintain, um, to maintain what I'm doing at this point. Um, not knowing what things are gonna look like with COVID, if we're gonna go back to in-person hearings, um, or if telephone hearings might stay an option, um, I think they might stay as an option with once we go back to in-person hearings. Um, my five-year plan, I haven't really looked at it. You know, part of me is of the mindset that I don't need to grow more. Um, I'm at a point in my practice where I make a very comfortable living. Um, I don't need more money that's coming in now. And I love the flexibility that working for myself allows. I would just like to offload some of the tasks that I don't enjoy doing. Um, so I don't have any plans to expand at this time. I think the soul life fits me really well.
Nancy L. Cavey:Um, so tell us what, what is your weekly schedule like?
Katie Roe:Um, so I've got two little kids which does impact it, um, uh, four and six, and that four year old was three months old when I started taking on new clients for my practice. Um, so I generally work eight 30 to three 30. Um, my receptionist service is taking calls from 7:00 AM to about five or five 30, but they don't send me calls unless it's social security, which sometimes is calling pretty early from the east coast and here in California. Um, I only do I also use time-blocking, um, which I love. So I very
Nancy L. Cavey:Much explain what time blocking time blocking
Katie Roe:Is when you dedicate a portion of your day to a single task and nothing else. So, um, it can interrupt that. And I started using working when I was working at a firm. I started using that and it made me very efficient, right. Um, so I know that I work best in the morning. So my brief writing is primarily in the mornings or filing appeals in the, or in the mornings. I only do new client intakes in the afternoons four days a week, generally, between the hours of one 30 and three o'clock. Um, if I've got more cases coming in that week, they have to go to the next week or they get referred out if they don't want to wait, uh, Fridays, I don't accept any phone calls for my receptionist service. Um, if I'm not extremely busy, I take Fridays off. Um, otherwise Fridays are my brief writing days and no calls are transferred. I have no client appointments on those days. Um, and I stop at three 30 cause my girls are, my oldest is done with school at that time. And then I spend another hour in the evening, um, after they've gone to bed on the couch with my laptop, doing emails that are all scheduled to go out the next day. So my clients don't think they can reach me at night and then uploading medical files, you know, stuff that doesn't take a lot of brain energy.
Nancy L. Cavey:So how do your clients react to this structured, um, scheduling time-blocking
Katie Roe:They're good about it. Um, I do primarily email and the, one of the positives I get on my reviews is that I'm extremely responsive. So I do respond to all emails within 24 hours, if I can do it, you know, um, have a quick response, I'll do it immediately. Um, I need to time block my emails. That's, that's one thing I haven't done yet. And that wasn't my goals for this list because I do respond to emails throughout most of the day. Um, and that's not the most efficient,
Nancy L. Cavey:So, um, we've covered some of them, but what's your, what's your number one goal for this year to change or improve your practice?
Katie Roe:Hmm, that's a good one. Um, more templates, more templates. I, um, so many of the emails that I get are the same response over and over. I need to expand my templates and same thing going along with that with emails is I need to start time blocking my email response time. It's just not efficient for you to be on your email all day long.
Nancy L. Cavey:Yeah, so obviously Cleo is a very powerful like case management system. I use Abacus, but we've created a tons of templates that are where basically what we did is we kind of identified what we thought our blocks were and sat down and created templates or processes and procedures to address those. And it is really, um, freed up a lot of our time. Um, so I, that's a great goal and I know that it will improve your productivity. So in closing, what's your exclusive takeaway tip for our audience?
Katie Roe:If you were a new solo starting out, um, there's so much good material out there to read, even if you don't have a business background. Um, and so grab anything that you can and read it all. Um, like the profit first book, I recommend that to other attorneys who I know use it. Um, the toilet paper entrepreneur is another great one for running a lean business. It's not lobbyist. And then, um, if I can give another little shout out, uh, the Lawyerist has a book it's called the roadmap for small law firms and practices. Um, I wish I'd had that book when I started my practice. I read it a few years in, but, um, just get your hands on any materials you can and start reading.
Nancy L. Cavey:Well, that's great. My tip is a book called profits first by John natural. Uh, and Mike Morris, Mike is of the leading personal inventories in Michigan. I think he brings in$140 million a year, Social security department, which I think is kind of interesting. He does a ton of advertising, um, but as a small social security practice. And, uh, he wrote this book, uh, with, uh, his, uh, chief operating officer, uh, John. And, um, it's a very interesting reading sort of readjust your mind, uh, about, um, some of the myths. I think that we've, we've had about, um, practicing and how we should be practicing and finding our own voice, in course. So I recommend that. So in closing any, any other words, words of wisdom for our audience?
Katie Roe:I would say if you're on the fence about starting out as a solo to do it, just jump in, um, you know, make, maybe make sure you have six months of living expenses saved up first. But, um, you know, I was so nervous, um, to start my own practice was dealing a lot with imposter syndrome, which is a whole other podcast episode, but it was, I was really pushed, um, actually in particular by my husband, who's also an attorney, um, who saw that I was well-suited for this to start it. Um, it started out slow, but I mean, it's been so successful. I can never have imagined, um, and just the return and profit it's at least two times what I was making for a firm, um, beforehand, but I have so much more flexibility and, um, can practice the type of law I really want to
Nancy L. Cavey:Well, great. And congratulations, and thank you for being our guest today.