And that's sort of when the nightmare kind of began. And it wasn't about the calculus, it was the teacher. So it was one of those things where it's always nagging in the background. Why do I think I'm at a math? When when I actually do math, I'm great at it.
SPEAKER_00Hi, I'm Vanessa Vicarian, aka the Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Uh oh, and don't worry. No calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Hello, my little math therapists. Okay, ew, was that creepy? Yeah, it was definitely creepy, but like, you know how Lady Gaga calls her fans like little monsters? I want something like that to like send me ideas. Okay, so today I have a guest on the podcast who is totally cool, and I cannot wait for you to meet her. Her name is AK Whitney, and she is so cool. I mean, I often hear from grown-ups who want to go back to school and learn math as an adult. And let me tell you, not only did AK Whitney actually do that at age 38, she also chronicled the whole journey in Cosmo, The Washington Post, and her own blog called The Mathism Project. Oh my god, I just love a good math fun. She is really the definition of overcoming math trauma and making it less of a stigma. But how did she do it? Why don't more people do it? And how can we make math less of a trauma for women and girls? Well, buckle up. You're about to find out. Hey
Kay, welcome to Math Therapy. I am so, so, so excited to have you here. And I just, okay, I kinda wanna start by letting you know that the way I found out about you was because of an article you wrote for Cosmo a few years ago about how you learned to overcome your fear of math and took math classes as an adult, which is honestly something that so many adults dream of doing but never get to doing. So I like you really are proof of math therapy and action. And I can't wait for everyone to hear your story. But let's just start with what got you to finally take that push? What made you finally take those classes as an adult? What was the motivation?
SPEAKER_01Well, so here's the thing. So 12-year-olds don't make the best decisions, I think we can agree. And um when I was 12 and in sixth grade, I decided I'm terrible at math, even though I loved science. And you know, I just sort of made that decision. I'm not sure why there was all kinds of stuff going on in my life. And so I kind of got onto the um language track, and I already was a linguist because I'd grown up in different countries. So I spoke, I still speak five languages to this day. And I thought, well, that's my strength. So it's okay if I don't, you know, do math. So I kind of went on my merry way and then I became a journalist. And the whole time I'd sort of convinced myself you're terrible at math, and yet I I did math all the time. Like uh, you know, for recipes, you know, I put in a food writer, so conversions and all kinds of things like that. And also in my mid-20, early to mid-20s, I decided I wanted to become a private pilot. Um, so I learned to fly with airplanes. And so I, you know, there's a lot of math in flying, you know, you have to navigate courses and you have to figure out, you know, weights and uh fuel ratios and all these things. And I had no problem with any of that at all. And so it was one of those things where it was always nagging in the background. Why do I think I'm bad at math? When when I actually do math, I'm great at it. So I when I left the paper, I was gonna take a class for web design. I looked at the catalog at a local college and they had, you know, web design courses, HTML. So I thought, great. The math department section was right next to it. And I saw they had math going back to pre-algebra. And I thought, wow, maybe this is my chance to figure out whether I really just suck at math or not. I'm gonna go back and start from the beginning. And it sort of became this kind of obsessive thing. And being a writer, I thought, well, why shouldn't I share my pain with everyone? So that's how it became an atheism. Um, and what was really cool was see, I I grew up in many different countries. I grew up in Italy and Mexico and then the United States and went to school in many different uh systems. My education wasn't bad, but it was uneven. So, because I think it's really interesting that here in community colleges, um, you can just go back and retake a bunch of high school courses that you may have sucked at or you may never got a chance to take. And that's the way the system works here. And so I started pre-algebra and I was kind of terrified, and I, you know, there I am getting A's, you know. And then I took algebra, which had been a big bugbear for me in high school. Well, mostly because I was not really paying attention. I had a crush on this guy, and you know, I doodle his name on the pages instead of doing my homework, you know. Yeah, that kind of thing. Happened to me with Keanu Reeves. I got it. Oh, Kianna. Oh, yeah. So, oh, still, still. Oh, yeah. But uh obviously to this day. But so I I started taking these courses and then I had calculus, and that's sort of when the nightmare kind of began. Um, and it wasn't about the calculus, it was the teachers. Uh, it was the first guy I had seemed hell bent on getting any student out of his class. Like he was just this like he he set up the first test. Oh my god, what? I it's funny because the math community, at least here in, you know, you'd think it wouldn't be that small in California, but it is. And you know, so I've I've talked to a number of math professors, and a few of them actually knew this person, were like, uh yeah, dude's got issues, you know. So my god, what? So there's like drama. Oh yeah, there's drama.
SPEAKER_00What he's got issues? Okay, this is like TMZ.
SPEAKER_01No, no, I mean not quite, but it was more like some of these people that were also now math instructors and math professors, they knew him and were like, Yeah, I'm not surprised you had problems. And I'm like, Okay, well, why is this man teaching? But you know, that's the way it goes. Right. And then the next teacher I had the second, so I dropped his class because it was unbearable. And then I took the second one, and this was a woman, and she was great in the sense that she obviously, first of all, she was clearly a very skilled mathematician. She had a PhD, she was one of the top 125 in her country. So, I mean, she was, you know, really amazing. But this was one of those those who can do can't teach things. Uh-huh. She was very impatient, where you know, she expected you to get it in two seconds because, of course, she got it in 0.5 of a second.
SPEAKER_00Great quality for a teacher.
SPEAKER_01I just couldn't pass any of her tests, and it was so frustrating. But here's the beauty of it is that by that point, since I wasn't a kid anymore, I was in my early 40s and I'd gotten all that confidence from all the courses I'd taken before. That I knew that no, this isn't about my inability to learn calculus. This is about these individuals' inability to teach it to me efficiently. And then I took a class through uh the uh University of Ohio, Ohio State University. It's a MUCLIS. I would recommend it highly. They still teach it. And that was exactly what I needed. It was untimed tests, tons and tons and tons of practice problems, explanations, and also you could get this more complicated textbook where you can really sort of take a deep dive. So it was a perfect, you know, fit for me. And I got an 89.3.
SPEAKER_00That is amazing.
That is incredible. So, first of all, you said something so, so interesting. I mean, this whole time you've been talking about how you got the idea in your head when you were 12 that you weren't a math person. And I really that that kind of in a way is well, first of all, you said journalism is the most math phobic industry, which is so funny because the reason we started math therapy, honestly, is because we noticed that every time I was doing a media appearance or anything with press, the journalists or hosts would talk about how math phob they were. And we were like, okay, they need math therapy. So that's how this all started. So thank you. Um, but but talking about that idea of getting it into your head that you're not a math person, despite being in a way proven wrong, right? Like you're getting bees without doing anything that should tell you something, but you're 12 and it's in your head. What do you have any idea why? Like why you got that idea in your head?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I've I've I've obviously parsed this thoroughly. Um, but um first of all, so I was living in Mexico City at the time, and um living in Mexico City, and this was in the 80s, was kind of like living anywhere else in the 50s. Um, gender roles were very constrictive. So, you know, girls did certain things, boys did other things. So that was already sort of the message that girls do this, girls do that, and math was not something girls were supposed to like. Or, and I mean it wasn't even like somebody told me that directly or anything, it was just sort of, you know, absorbed. No, but you can feel it. Yeah, I was absorbed. Yeah. And also in my sixth grade math class, there were a lot of little boys who were very loud, and you know, they would always call out the answers. And of course, two of them were boys who bullied me um at that time. And so it was one of those things that that makes you even less, you know, willing to engage because they're gonna bug you about it later. But here's the irony. So my math teacher was actually really good, and she told my mother during a parent teacher conference, you need to tell your daughter to stop saying she's bad at math because she's really not. But my mother didn't tell me. Now I don't know, and now my mother and I have had a complicated relationship over the years, and I didn't, I wrote, you know, I I kind of uh I don't I don't think I don't think she's forgiven me because I wrote a whole piece about mothers and daughters and math for the Washington Post a few years back, um, and the influence mothers can have on their own daughter's math phobia, and they can sort of pass it on. And my mom and I have never had much in common. I've always been very bookish, I've been kind of shy. She was always this gorgeous social butterfly, she was a fashion model in her 20s, you know, like so not me in any way, shape, or form. And so when she said to me, It's okay that you're bad at math, I'm also bad at math, I think part of me just sort of felt like this was something we could bond over. So that was sort of the final coffin. So it was sort of like some sick way of trying to please my mom, some stupid way of messages. And then, of course, I wondered why she didn't bother telling me this because she did tell me, in fact, that my art teacher had told her that I had no talent for drawing, which was kind of disappointing. That she passed on. I don't want to blame my, you know, so it's so cliche to blame the mother, but in this case, she does bear some of the blame. Also, I know a big factor, and I've thought about this too, is my grandfather died that year, and he was a doctor, and he was always very encouraging of me academically, and was always doing like little word problems with me and math problems. He taught me chess. Um, he always had this strong belief in my intellect, which was wonderful. And while everybody else around me was more sort of like so let's party, you know, they were very charming party types of people, but he was the more serious intellectual. So we bonded over that, and then he died. And I think maybe had he not died so soon, maybe he would have pulled me out of that funk. Maybe I would have confided him, granddad, I think I'm really bad at math, and he would have said, No, don't be silly. And his word may have carried something. So sort of a confluence of events there that happened.
SPEAKER_00Well, okay, so I think one of the coolest things about this is that you have parsed this all out because it's so fascinating. The truth is that most people I talk to, like that's kind of my role as a math therapist, is to dig this out of them, but they've never thought about it before, right? You know, when I talk about math trauma, you're picturing someone like yelling at you while you try to do math, but math trauma can happen in these subtle ways. It can be something as simple as feeling in the atmosphere around you that people like you aren't good at math, like that girls aren't good at math. It can be something as simple as, yes, all the boys are shouting out the answers and you never get a turn and you're scared you're gonna get bullied. It could be something as simple as your mom holding that piece of information back from you and you wondering for years why, right? So
I think it's really important that you like as you talk about it, I just I can't wait for everybody to read your work because I've read both of those articles of yours and they're so important. It isn't just one thing, but we do live in a culture that actually actively insidiously promotes this idea that there are certain people who can't do math and certain people who can't, and we get that message in a variety of ways. And I read somewhere that I believe you called it the cult of the genius.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00I see that's not my phrase, but can you tell us a bit more about that?
SPEAKER_01Well, it was interesting because uh there's this mathematician, Professor Jordan Ellenberg, and he and I have occasionally chatted on Twitter. I mean, it's not, you know, we're not best buds or anything. We're just he know he sort of knows who I am, and I definitely know who he is. And he's the one who kind of talked about the cult of the genius because he was one. He was a prodigy as a child. He went to the math Olympiad, you know, I he went to Harvard, and he was just this, but he sort of started questioning the impact of that on his life and how it made things difficult, not just for him, but for everybody who wasn't a genius. Um, and yeah, it's this idea, it's I mean, even if you look at sometimes, you know, if you're on social media, whether it's LinkedIn or Facebook or Twitter or what have you, you'll have someone that's like, oh, you can only be a if you're a math genius, you can solve this math problem. And it's usually some very simple sequence thing or you know, one of those um simple algebra problems.
SPEAKER_00It's like bad mass, also.
SPEAKER_01Right, yes, a bed mass or pen PEMDASS or whatever you're calling it these days, badass. I don't know. Yeah, so yeah, it's this idea can you do even the simpler stuff? You're a genius. And as a writer, and as obviously I'm a prolific reader, and I, you know, I find it just nobody tells you you're a genius because you were able to read Shakespeare, a Shakespeare play, or a solid or like paint a painting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, or even draw it. Or drawing, we don't call them geniuses. I know, I totally agree. Oh my god, I'm obsessed with this point. Sorry. Sorry, I just got so excited. I'm excited.
SPEAKER_01No, no, I'm excited to because I'm equally obsessed. But it's the thing, I just thought it's so irritating because but it but what's interesting too is you know, we were parse as well parsing my own reasons for um going to this point where I, oh, I'm obviously suck at math. I started kind of looking at why the people around me, uh, particularly my parents, who are both math phobic too. Um, my father, who passed away a few years ago, the year before he passed away, um, we actually had a really good talk about math stuff because um he was telling me so he got a degree in economics from this very uh prestigious Swedish, like it's basically the London School of Economics of Sweden. We were talking about this, and I said, Well, Dad, I don't understand. I mean, you uh were CEO of a business for years, you uh are really good with technical stuff, you've always been able to fix stuff or figure stuff out. Why do you think you're so bad at math? And he's like, you know, it's weird, I don't know. Because in high school, now in Swedish high schools, I don't know if in Canada, but they sort of had like a major track, kind of like college, like they put you like if you're good at math or whatever, you get into the STEM line or you get into the language line or whatever. And so my dad was in the STEM line in high school and did just fine, but he kind of convinced himself too that he was really a language guy. And so he sort of, like me, sort of discarded this idea that he could be maybe good at two things, not just one. Uh, and sort of convinced himself. And I think part of that was what influenced him to often be very like hard on me in the sense that if I if I got a 97% on a test, he'd be like, that's great, but why did you get a hundred? And I know part of it was Oh my god, that was literally my dad.
SPEAKER_00That was literally my dad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, part of it I think he was just sort of some dark, deep, dark irony or joking or something. But when you're a kid, it's kind of hard, you know, especially when your dad's a bit critical. Otherwise, you're like, you don't know if he's joking or not. So, like, so my dad was very techy, was you know, great, was you know, obviously was able to handle the numbers that dealt with a huge business, uh, but he still felt like he sucked at it. And then my mom, so my mom, of course, my mom claims to be bad at languages, even if she speaks seven of them, but she was treated even more like she grew up, you know, she uh went to school in the 50s again. Kind of a similar experience I had in Mexico in the 80s, you know, the gendered expectations, all her friends are basically engaged and secretly pregnant by senior year. So it was, you know, they were supposed to become hostesses, and you know, and unlike here, where a lot of women would go to college first and then do the whole, you know, Betty for Dan feminine mystique thing, right? So my mother, you know, I was the first woman to graduate, my mother was the second. So my freshman year in college, she decided she was finally going to get that education that she'd always uh kind of wanted been been sort of pushed out of. And so she majored in psychology. She went through community college first and then she transferred to Fort University, and then she went wanted to become a social worker, a master's in social work. And all this meant she had to go back and take those remedial math classes, just like I did many years later, retaking math. And so she also surprised herself. I mean, she didn't write about it and blogged about it or any of that, but she surprised herself by actually getting through it just fine. I think, in fact, she mostly got A's and B's. So it was one of those things where my mom sort of covertly got over her math phobia while I was in college. And then, so then many years later, when I announced, you know, I left the paper, I decided to do this whole thing. She was one of my biggest fan now. She gave me a math dictionary. She's like, Oh my god, I'm so glad I've always, you know, this is crazy. Yeah, she's always like, I never didn't think you were bad at math, and you know, you're always saying that. And and that's when she brought out the whole thing about the sixth-grade teacher, and then part of thinking, well, gee, mom, you could have said that earlier. But but she was so supportive.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01Um, because she'd grown too, you know. She'd, you know, she'd I mean, you can mature, I think, at any age. And I think for my mother, sort of her 50s um was when she finally sort of grew into her own intellect and was able to accept it and um say, you know what, I can be a math person too. It doesn't freak her out anymore, which I think is the biggest gift she could have gotten ever.
SPEAKER_00This is like a coming-of-age math story. Like, we need to do like a rom-com about it almost. Like it's like, you know what I mean? Like it's like, it's like the Gilmore girls, but for math. Yeah, I love it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. She's Lorelion. She finally goes back to high school, right? Yeah. So yeah, no. Oh my god, I love it. I don't know if Amy Sherma Pelladina is gonna like that, but we'll see. But but no, but it was just really because I wanted to put that in there, and I did put that in the Washington Post story, even though it's funny because the people were like, How dare you blame your mother? I'm like, You didn't read it to the end, you know, because at the end basically exactly, but so yeah, so that was uh basically how that happened. So I parsed that. So the thing with my the revelation with my dad was many years after I kind of come to groups with my mom, but I did find it interesting that he his insecurities kind of kept him from claiming his own math abilities. Um, so I mean it so basically it's not just women, it's men too, and which was why we're in this mess, I think, in the in the first place, this math phobic mess.
SPEAKER_00Well, that is no, that I mean, we started this off by talking about the cult of genius, and I think it's interesting. Like, you know, as we wrap up here, there's a few final things I want to say because I think it is so interesting how we associate math ability with genius. And the truth is it has historically been not only gendered, but it's been, you know, across race and ability, there have been ideas of who it is that possesses this innate math genius and who doesn't. So, yes, well, we can see that changing a bit now. It's, I mean, we're not, it hasn't changed that much. We have a long, long way to go. I still get comments all the time from people who still believe, who are still trying to scientifically prove that, you know, men are innately better in math, all of that kind of bullshit. So it happens all the time. If you notice, there's an article every year disproving it, right? Being like, oh, we've now seen that, you know, there's no difference between girls and boys. Yeah, it's it's so annoying. But what I wanted to say, this is good news. We started, okay, this last thing we were talking about, the cult of genius, and I just realized what a full circle moment this is, math pun intended, for you, an article just came. This is actually, you're gonna like this. It came in that I just saw it today, and the CBC wrote an article about how when we say things like, well, it's not rocket science. We're saying that like rocket scientists are smarter than average people as opposed to professions like, and they use this exact example. Oh, it's a piece of cake. So I'm thinking about you as a foodie writer, right? And how like, you know, and just that kind of thing, right? Who we always imply that, like, oh, you know, if you're a chef or a cook, that's like you can't be as smart as if you're a rocket scientist, rocket scientist, right? But it's like both things make you intelligent. And somebody tweeted me this today, something about I can't remember what the quote is. I want to find it for you because I was like, oh my god, I love this. No, I'm finding it. My phone is right here. Just one second, because it was in response to this. And I was like, this is exactly it. When we talk about these things, she said, my grandfather always said, education doesn't make you smarter, it just gives you direction. And I loved that. It's like, yeah, you we're if you choose to be a chef versus a remote seminar into this, you're gonna learn different stuff. It doesn't make you more of a genius or not a genius. So I just I really wanted to tell you that because you have all of those components of loving food and then writing about food and then also now doing math.
So, okay, I we have to wrap up. This has been so amazing, but I have two questions that I always ask my guests. So I've got to ask you the two final questions. Of course. Go ahead.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00Okay, question number one. If you could pick one thing to briefly tell us that you would like changed about the way math is taught in schools, what would that one thing be?
SPEAKER_01The um the emphasis of on um you're not good at math unless you can do it quickly.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01I think that's something that to change. I love it. Um, sometimes you know, learning curves are different. And also, I mean, some mathematicians have spent decades on one problem. So why shouldn't a kid in high school or middle school be able to spend a little more time figuring something? out as long as you get to the right answer and you know how to do it. Who cares if it takes you five minutes or 10 minutes or one minute?
SPEAKER_00I love that. And now I'm thinking and I'm like, oh my God, imagine if we told artists to rush their paintings. Like imagine if we were like, you're not a good artist unless you can paint that in two minutes. Like what? Oh my God, you're totally right. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Final question. You are gonna love this question. What if someone listened to this whole thing, read all your work and was like, AK, the thing is I'm just not a math person.
SPEAKER_01I actually people have said that to me. So this isn't this isn't a new thing. But uh well basically the way I say is like well you know that's okay. You don't have to be a math person. Uh just realize that math is something that you likely have been doing all along that you're not you know you don't have to be a math person love math but as long as you can use it as needed for what you need to do that's really what matters. As long as you don't just you know avoid it at all costs because you're not a math person. You know just you know everything from doing your taxes to figuring out you know the the how your budget or whatever things you're doing or can if even if you're cooking and you have to convert a recipe you know don't just don't let your oh my God I can't you know I mean don't panic when you see a number you don't have to be a math person. Just calm down do it and uh you know that's that's what I would say is it's okay. It's fine. I'm nobody's gonna yeah I'm not trying to convert you to my math religion. So you know you got to come to this yourself. So that's fine basically.
SPEAKER_00Well and I love it and that idea that like you don't have to love math right just like you said no one's forcing you to love math but don't panic at math. Don't think you can't do it. Like you're capable of it if you choose and just take a deep breath. AK
this has been just so refreshing. I think your work is so cool. I think one of the coolest things is that you're documenting your math journey. So for everyone who wants to check out your work go check out AK's website. We'll post the link in the show notes. It's called Mathachism which is so cool and you are you're doing what so many adults um want to do so I'm really really excited for the everyone listening that they can hear kind of their hopes and dreams in your journey. So thank you for fighting the good fight for everyone out there and I can't wait to follow your math journey online.
SPEAKER_01Great thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for uh having me it was amazing. Okay. Bye Okay sorry I know this is cliche but I cannot help but say it. If you're an adult listener who's been thinking damn I want to go back to school and relearn math this episode is your sign to just fucking go for it. Read more about AK's math therapy journey by heading to the Mathachism project page www.mathachism.com. Oh and you can also find her on Twitter at akawitney. If something in this episode inspired you please tweet us at Math Therapy. And you can also follow me personally at the Math Guru on Instagram or Twitter. Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vicaria, produced by Sabina Wex and edited by David Koachberg. Our theme song is Waves by my band Goodnight Sunrise. And guys if you know someone who needs math therapy or needs to hear someone else getting math therapy please share this podcast and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use. Those things actually make such a difference. I am determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help. So please spread the word. That's all for this week stay tuned for our next episode out next Thursday