SPEAKER_01

Hey guys, it's me, Vanessa. Alright, so we've been working on season two since way back in February, and we had today set as our release date. But like everyone, we've been watching the news and we're seeing all of the horrible violence and racism that has been escalating against black people in America with every passing day. So we thought about postponing and thought, you know, it might be inappropriate to talk about math trauma right now. But as we were talking about it, we realized that as it happens, one of the episodes we had scheduled for later in the season was an interview with Michole Washington, where we discussed her experience as a black woman in academia. Her conversation with me ended up being fascinating and just really, really eye-opening in so many ways. And I've been reading the news like most of you and feeling helpless and not sure what to do and if I should do something and if I should post or what the deal is with that black square. And it's hard to figure out what the right thing to do is. And the truth is, there is no right thing to do. And talking to the team here, we wanted to do at least something and felt like maybe this was a really important conversation for people to hear right now. You know, the most important thing for us to do is to talk and ask questions so we can actually learn from each other, even though it might be scary and uncomfortable at times, which it definitely was for me at some points during this interview. A lot of you guys don't know me, but when I started my work in math education 10 years ago, I did it because I wanted to do something to challenge and change systemic discrimination. I opened a tutoring studio so that I could actually talk and listen to kids themselves. And I started this podcast to have conversations about how experiences in math education can lead or not lead to change. Through all of the work I do, I always want to highlight the inequities and harmful stereotypes and biases that lead to marginalization in the first place. And yes, even in math. You know, I feel like it probably seems small and weird that I'm like so focused on math and science, but through that, my goal is to point out that, like, hey, look, this is even happening here in this little area most people don't give a shit about. And if it's happening over here, you can bet it's happening everywhere. This happens to be my area of expertise. So I always hope that by showing how this shit happens in math and science, that I can be a part of the change and that I can start conversations, you know, that I can begin opening eyes of those responsible for educating future generations, like teachers, educators, parents, and students themselves, and myself included. This podcast might be small, but while this is only our second season, we have developed a dedicated following. I mean, shockingly to even me, we have listeners, we have an audience, and as much as I'm torn between being like, fuck, maybe this isn't the time to talk about this, I'm also like, fuck, yes, this is the time to talk about this. I don't want to say nothing for fear of getting it wrong. You know, I have the opportunity today, right now, to do something to amplify a black voice, and I feel like it would be hypocritical of me not to do that just because I'm scared. So here we are. I've decided to swap out our original first episode and to release my Cole's episode as the first of the season, as recorded way back in February, which quite frankly seems like an entire lifetime ago. I honestly hope that listening to our conversation is a catalyst for having conversations of your own. Oh, the other thing is normally we would start each episode with like all this fun music and this uh, you know, this intro we'd originally recorded, but we're gonna skip that today and get right to the conversation. We kept everything else about the episode, including the outro, as originally recorded. So, all right, enough about me. Let me introduce you guys to the amazing Michael. Michole Washington, as of 2016, was only the ninth black woman to ever earn a Bachelor of Science from Atlanta's Georgia Tech University. She's currently working on her PhD in math education at the University of Michigan, and her research focuses on common experiences of black people in math education. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Well, I'm I'm really, really excited because you actually emailed us after hearing math therapy season one and had found out about it through a friend. And I'm so glad you reached out because what you're doing is so, so fascinating to me. What I love is that your whole thing is about how everyone looks at math as this objective, like cold subject. And what you like to say is that math is actually one of the most subjective subjects in school. It's not the objective truth that we all think it is. Can you tell us like a bit about that?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So what I love to preach about is we have to like separate that idea of math objective, math content, and then the culture around a math classroom. So when I say that, I love this already. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, so when I'm saying that, I mean that we always say math, we say it's objective. True, fine. Two plus two is usually four or whatever it may be. But that math culture is not objective at all. There's a lot of relations and the way people talk to each other and feel comfortable in a space that really matters in a math classroom. And that's the space that we don't talk about because we always put the math content itself on a much higher pedestal. If someone is stressed out on an exam, stressed out in a math course, they could be sweating, feet tapping, all that. And the one thing that we'll keep doing is throw more math at them. We give them more math to do. You stressed out? Well, you need to go do some more problems until you learn how to do this. As opposed to addressing the fact that they're having these physiological signs going on that's really scary in any other situation that we just don't address.

SPEAKER_01

So that's that's Oh my god, yeah, that's really true.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so that's what I'm always trying to scream or discuss with people. I should say discuss, about we need to talk about this more and alleviate it.

SPEAKER_01

So now is that what your research focuses on? Like, can you tell us a bit about what it is that you're studying?

SPEAKER_03

I'm not sure if my research is fully gonna go down that route. I'm still in my in-between phase of right, I'm on the brink of starting my dissertation proposal. I still got a couple more months though. Um, but in particular, right now, I focus more so on summer bridge programs. So these are the programs that students who just left high school will go into this program to help prepare to start college. So they'll do it the summer before their first year. And it's usually a short program. Some are one week, others are like five weeks. But I was particularly looking at what are the experiences of black students in these summer bridge programs before they get into college. And the reason I start to look in that area is because I remember when I did a summer bridge program in undergrad where I came into college already loving math. Math was my thing. I've always been told I'm good at it. I felt like I was really good at it, but then I get into this program and they're constantly telling us, like, well, you know, at this university, there's only a 6% black population. There may not be, it's unlikely that everyone here will make it to the end. Look to your left, look to your right, they may not be here with you in a couple years because this is a horse. Oh my god, that's terrifying. Right. But that's also the nature of that entire university, not just towards black students, it's towards all students of this like competitive STEM nature. But considering that if I already came into this university in this program, feeling like I was good at math and hearing it, and now you're telling me I have something to be scared of because of my race. Now when I go into a math space, I'm a little more like timid, a little more like hyper-conscious about it and scared, and wondering, like, is it me when something goes wrong? But knowing what I know now, I know that it's not me. It was not me whenever things were going wrong. There were other things going on in that system of what a math classroom is that was definitely impacting me in more ways than I could understand at the time. So that's kind of what my research is looking at right now. It's just what are those experiences that students are experiencing and what are the things that the program may be doing to be complicit in it.

SPEAKER_01

And so I'm very curious, like as someone, I remember, you know, I was doing my thesis over a decade ago now. And I kind of think, you know, for me, it was my first like foray into feminism. Like I'd never taken a feminism course. Like I really honestly didn't know anything about it. I, this is like gonna sound super weird, but I don't like think of myself as a woman of color. Like I've never just like the way I was brought up was never that way. Like it was, it was, it was never made apparent to me that I was like in any way not white. I know that sounds so fucked up, but like all of my friends were white. I went to like a predominantly Jewish school actually and lived in a Jewish neighborhood. It just never came up. And I was doing my master's and I was in this feminism class because my master's was in math education, like and feminist theory, because that's what I was focused on. And I remember my professor at the time pointing it out to me, like literally pointing it out to me that my experience was different because I was a woman of color. And I just kind of sat there and was like, I was so conflicted because I was like, I don't feel that way. And am I now supposed to like feel a shared experience that belongs to you know what I mean? Like it was very, very strange to me. And like, so back, I mean, back then, like I don't want to sound ancient, but I'd never heard about like intersectionalities, like I'd never heard about any of this stuff. Like, I to me, I was like, I'm just studying the effects of like gender and on women in mathematics. And like when I look back on it, I'm like, holy shit, like now we're really starting to talk about not just women of color, but like women of color like me who can pass. That's what everyone always told me. Like, I can pass. And I was almost like, what the fuck does that mean? But right, like it means I can pass for not being a person of color, or I can pass for being whatever, it's so complicated. Um, but I'm so interested in the fact that like you are specifically studying this, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and actually the story that you're just saying from what um how you weren't aware of like the intersectionality and all that until you were doing your master's, same situation happened to me when I started grad school. Because my entire life of doing math has been in the sense of how we usually see math. I was at a university, I said I want to be a math major, I take all the courses, I'm struggling through the courses like crazy. I am noticing that I am the only black person, period, sometimes the only woman, period, in a lot of my courses. In 2016, and in Atlanta, which is about a 54-56% black city, I was only the ninth black woman to earn a BS in applied mathematics from the Georgia Institute of Technology, which is in the heart of Atlanta. In 2016. Right. So even then, when like all that was coming out, I was like getting the interviews and people like congratulating me, in my head, it was just driving me crazy because it's like the ninth in 2016? How? Like, I mean, I knew I was the only one in my classes, so but for some reason, I guess I was a little more optimistic in my head of thinking like, yo, I'm probably like 90th, 100th, you know, there'd be more people who's gone through this, they're just not here now. And it's like, nope, it hasn't haven't been that many at all. And how did that make you feel? Like, what was the feeling? It was kind of what you were saying earlier was about like exceptionalism, how I started to get pushed at like, here's this one black woman who can do math. It's so unicorn, it's so magical, and it's like, no, that's that's not the message that I want to push. Right. That it's like this an exceptional thing, like anyone really can be in this, well, should be in this position. And the problem is that they're not. And it's like, what's happening to where they're not here? I over the years, when it comes to math, we have all these reforms that come out to learning a different way, to read things a different way, to teach it a different way, but we keep changing the same thing every time and ending at the same results. The way I'm looking at it. Like the numbers are not changing by any drastic amount over the last couple of decades when we keep doing the same thing, which means we need a different solution. We need to consider something else.

SPEAKER_01

Right. So when you say like we keep changing things, do you mean like they keep just trying to change like curriculum content? Right. Yeah, okay. Instead of changing like the culture around it. Exactly. Yeah, people do not want to tackle the culture around it because quite frankly, if you do, I mean, it really threatens those in privileged positions who have benefited from the culture around it. Yep, it's a gatekeeper. It's such a gatekeeper. So is this is that what is this whole thing what made you want to go on to like kind of pursue this?

SPEAKER_03

Oh, that's that's a good question. Because that evolved over like another series of like reflections and events in my life. So at the time, the same semester I graduated, because I graduated in a fall semester, so August to December. I considered applying to an applied mathematics PhD. I did not think I would be able to get in, in which in present day, I feel like if I was more confident, I would have got into a PhD in math program. But it's crazy, I talked myself out of it because I was like, I don't know. No one has ever really told me that this seems like this will work for me, but I know I care about education a lot because I hated the way that I like the experiences I had in undergrad. It was like this is kind of ridiculous. So I think I want to go into education and learn more about that. So that's what I did, applied to math education programs. I initially went in thinking I was gonna do more research on tutoring relationships because I used to tutor a lot back then. I had a tutoring company called Aphorithmetic that I started. Oh, what? That's so cool. Right. It was and it was really cool. And I stopped it when I moved to Michigan because it was like there's a lot of things changing, so I need to take a slower role here. But it's interesting how now I'm still kind of in the same space where I'm looking at relationships, it's just the population I'm looking at is different. It's not tutoring. I'm looking now more at undergraduate courses and what's happening with relationships.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so I mean, I guess I guess for like maybe everyone listening, even, including me who's interviewing you, um, what are some things to think about? Like, what are some things that like we can all be thinking about when we are trying to help someone have a better math experience? Like if you were gonna talk to like a teacher that or like a parent or just like generally about culture, like what are some things we should really be thinking about?

SPEAKER_03

When we're talking about K through 12, that one's always so hard for me because of standardized testing and all the other Oh my god, can you?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, okay, can you actually maybe you're the perfect person to ask about this? Standardized testing. So I've read a lot about how it really disadvantages um like minorities. Is that true? I believe so. It is true to me. Can you tell me why? Like, I've had this argument with people before, and I always end up in a fight with my friends about this, and I'm like, no, there's a ton of research about this, but I don't feel like I don't know the facts, and I'd actually really like to know what you think.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm like a total expert on this part, but I I have read literature on this and came to my own conclusions. Uh so there was actually this, there's not a I still gotta find a research article that's related to this, but some decades ago, there was a study done in California where they got a group of black students together. I can't remember what age they were, but they were definitely K through 12. And they also had a group of white students together, and they administered a standard, quote unquote, standard math exam that we would probably see on any like traditional standardized math exam. And when they got the results, the white students on average did score higher than black students. However, they administered a second test to another group with the same demographic different demographics, and they wrote the exam using African-American vernacular English instead. A lot of like words and grammar things that may be heard more often at home and for those particular students. And when they got the results for that test, the black students scored higher on average than the white students. If we're able to cater to students for what they need and tap into what they do know in ways that make sense for them, to them, that which does not mean dumbed down. Let me make that clear because I hate to think that adjusting for different groups means to dumb it down. That's not what that means. It means understanding their culture, their reality, their world.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, that's amazing. It's just like super topical because we're having that same problem again in Ontario with standardized tests, and they are actually implementing standardized tests for teachers now. So to graduate from teachers college, there's a standardized math test you have to take. And there are professors who are arguing that that actually really disadvantages um certain cultures, and not only that, it actually discourages uh many cultures from applying. So you end up with a more homogenous pool of teachers because they're and like I was gonna ask you this. Have you heard of stereotype threat at all? Absolutely. Yeah, tell me about that. Have you found anything like in your research? I do see a lot of stereotype.

SPEAKER_03

That's a huge factor to me. A lot of people don't believe in its existence. I totally do because it can look different. It's not always about well, one thing, it's not always about race. There are other ways that stereotypes can hinder a lot of people from moving forward. But that also doesn't mean that you're aware that it's happening to people. If you're always telling black students that there's not enough of you here, you may not do well in this class, the research has shown that you may not do well in these classes, then you put them in a class with a bunch of folks who don't look like them, you already filled their head with this idea that they may not do well, and then you physically put them in a place where when something goes wrong, what's the first thing they may jump to to believe? Oh, it must be me.

SPEAKER_01

That is that's so well articulated because yeah, from what I understand, like stereotype threat is when you are made aware of a stereotype about your particular group, whatever that might be, it could be gender, it could be race, whatever, that you are more likely to almost like self-fulfilling prophecy it just because you're like kind of freaked out about it. And there's a lot of that in in math and gender for sure. And so that's really interesting because I I'm wondering like that must be, or do you think that that is one of the main reasons why there is a lower participation rate for black people in STEM? Like, is that one of the major factors to you?

SPEAKER_03

To me, it is. I haven't read enough research to like fully just stamp that, but right now, yes. Did you always like math? Like, what was your relationship to math as a kid? Oh, I loved it. It was just something I enjoyed doing, just like watching kids go out and play sports, uh go dance or anything else. Math was kind of that thing for me, especially by myself.

SPEAKER_01

So that's so rare. Like that is really rare to hear. Right. Um, you mentioned that you weren't interested in doing super well because you thought that being smart wasn't cool. Is that true?

SPEAKER_03

You know, that one's always an interesting. It comes, it still happens to me even today. That like idea of like being good at mass, or sometimes I I feel a little scared to show it. And also because it's like I'm hyper aware of how other people feel about it and all the negative feelings. So it's almost like I'm not trying to traumatize folks, so you know, I'll chill out for a bit. But I'm also just now getting into my essence of feeling like, you know, I shouldn't worry about that and silence myself just because of that.

SPEAKER_01

But they're probably still so you're I'm you're sometimes uncomfortable talking about how much you love math because you're aware of how it might make them feel about like their own math abilities, or like about them judging really that's so interesting. Like, are you afraid it's gonna make them feel like shitty about themselves?

SPEAKER_03

That's and I think it's also remnants of like being a kid who's good at math, you know, there's teasing, there's bullying, and all that. So there's a there's also that side of there was negative ramifications for me showing how much I love math and doing what I do. And sometimes those emotions are still stuck with me and thinking like that may be a result of me showing this in this space. And I don't want to feel that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Wow, that's I feel like that's like some serious math trauma. Like that's actually so fascinating. Because I would have to ask, otherwise, I wouldn't be me. Were there like were there boys in the class that were good at math? Like, and like when you're in elementary school and did they get teased and bullied? Like, was this just a general thing or was it just like you?

SPEAKER_03

I don't know about elementary school, but I do remember like middle school, high school, yes. And I also remember in high school there were particular boys who were also really good at math, but I can say without doubt now that I was definitely better at math than they were. However, it's not like I would just I wouldn't just voice that though. And you know, when people needed help and stuff, they would run to them very quick. Right and it's like, wait, but I'm right here. Like I I finished this, y'all. Like I'm trying to tell you this is how this works. So having those type of experiences were kind of like just odd. It's like I'm good at it, but then there's I'm also starting to notice there's a little ginger thing that's happening here.

SPEAKER_01

And okay, so that's really interesting because I mean, I I definitely found not only in experience, but in all of my research, that there's yeah, once you start looking at it, there is, I will do workshops now, and girls will be putting up their hand. And one of the main complaints they have is I'm the best in my class at math, and no one asks me for help. They ask all of the boys, and they are super annoyed by it. Which is like, I know, I mean, I don't think it's crazy that this is still happening in 2020 at all because I'm like, yeah, fuck, of course it is, but it's crazy that it's happening in 2020. So you, you know, a lot of your research about subjectivity and about you talk a lot about like the anxiety, and I really like how you bring up like physiological symptoms that people feel when they're doing math that are like not okay and we should start paying attention to. Is this does this partially stem from like your own personal experience?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, absolutely. Oh my god, I couldn't even, I don't even know where to start to tell you about that. It's bad, or it was bad. It gotten better since I started my PhD program because I became more aware of all the factors that were acting on me and how they weren't my fault. It had nothing to do with me, which made me more comfortable in a math classroom because of that.

SPEAKER_01

So Okay, so walk me through like what had happened, like what even just one scenario of what might have happened.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, absolutely. So, oh, there's actually a scenario from this year that was really bad. That really I think this is right actually right before. Uh, I reached out to you. It was like a two-week span where I was supposed to be working on my prelim examination for my doc program. So these are the exams that you have to do, like writing papers before you can start working on dissertation. And I got really sick, like stress-induced sick. So I was struggling with insomnia for about nine days. I had a terrible like lack of appetite. So I wasn't eating a lot. And I had like, I was on antibiotics or something else that was going on. And it was just a lot that was added on my body on top of having to do this exam and be in a math course. It was a lot. So I had a quiz one day in my math course. It was linear algebra, something that I had taken multiple times in different variations in undergrads. Like I know this content. And plus it's September. So, you know, we're usually doing background information. It shouldn't have been that hard. But since I was really sick and I was not drinking enough water or any of those things, when I went into the quiz and sat there and I read the questions, it was just nothing was coming to mind. And I remember sitting there being so frustrated. Because like I see the words that I know. It's like I know what this word is, but my mind is just not working here. I worked on a problem in which I started using a process that I knew was not the right process given what the problem was. And I was extremely aware of it, but I couldn't think of anything else. So I just kept writing it. Because like I need to have something on the paper, but I know exactly why this is wrong. However, when people grade a quiz, they don't give a care about me knowing whether or not that that process was wrong and why. When in hindsight, that's a lot of that's really good to recognize something like that and understand why it wouldn't work and still use it and just be aware that it's wrong and why. So throughout that whole experience, I'm like, why could I not figure that out when my body was going through all that? Because on any other day, I probably would have been fine. But here I am sick, worried about doing wrong, thinking that I'm gonna fulfill this prophecy of black students not doing well, even though I'm over here in a PhD program, which is kind of ridiculous that that was still going through my mind. Like, oh my God, I'm gonna fail everyone because of this one quiz. But it was that's what was going through your mind? That's what was going through my mind. It was just because I'm the only black person in that class per user. Right. So and I'm already sick. So my mind is already in a dark place. It's like, how can I focus on anything, not even just the math, anything, if I'm feeling that way. And that's what got me wondering. Like, I wonder like how much of a factor this really is for everyone. Because I hear about the stress and anxiety people get on exams, especially math exams. And it's like, maybe it really is just that feeling of discomfort. Like, how different would have been if I could have gone to my professor and said, Look, I'm really having a terrible day. Like, I I cannot think on this. Can I please have a redo tomorrow? I will be there as early as you need me to do. I just need to like recuperate, please. And for them to really hear me and understand all things are going and not feel like, well, nope, I wouldn't do this for anyone else, so I'm not gonna do it for you. It's like, what everyone else isn't me?

SPEAKER_01

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03

That's kind of unfair to kind of group me with everyone else when everyone else is not me. We all go through different things.

SPEAKER_01

For you, like the I think it's interesting because many people think of math anxiety and they can't imagine that it would happen to like you, who's liked math your whole life, right? Like, why would that ever happen to you? Um but it's it's so funny. Like, I'm going on like a TV show in a couple of weeks for Pi Day, and Sabina, our lovely producer, but also my press gal was like, okay, so you're gonna go on and like just can you just recite like 10 digits of pie? And I literally I started panicking. I was like, no, oh my god, I'm like, what? I'm like, what if I fuck it up and I'm like the math guru and then on like literally, like, literally just started to, I was like, my heart was palpitating. And we were like in Starbucks. And she's like, okay, how about four digits? Like, fine. But it but because I was so scared of reinforcing the stereotype. Honestly, I knew that's what was happening. I was like, I'm expected to be this person who teaches kids math. If I fuck up, this is what it's gonna say, and then it's gonna reinforce the fact that I'm just some dumb girl with like a valley voice that's like bad at math. Like that totally. We know it's cool, guys. We know it's true. I hear you though.

SPEAKER_03

Like, this is so real. And that is what I've I've always experienced it. It's exactly what you're saying that people think that the math anxiety and trauma and all that does not happen to people who are considered good at math. Right. But if anything, it probably happens more often because we're always with the math.

SPEAKER_01

Totally. And your expectations are so much higher, I think, right? You're like, I'm supposed to be good at this. So, like, so okay, so this is really interesting. What what would you like? I let's, you know, before we kind of wrap up, I want to know a little more about this idea of equitable practices. Like, what could that look like?

SPEAKER_03

That relationship between instructor and student and breaking that power structure that happens. One thing I really that kind of grinds my gears is when there are instructors who ooh, actually, I got a much better story for you. So, yeah, give me the juicy story. Uh, there was one semester where I was helping teach a course, it was a really small course for future teachers, and there was one black student in that classroom. So, me, you understand, like my my headspace where I'm always trying to look at asset base. I see nothing, there's no disadvantage here. Everyone here can move forward. But the instructor for the actual course, a little bit different. So the students have to do an oral exam, and it would happen once, it was like once every month. So the very first oral exam, it was that you come in, um, we ask you a couple questions, it's about 30 minutes, you work some problems, talk to us, and then you leave. That's the end of your exam. So I was not there for this particular student when she did her first one. But what I hear from the instructor was that she came in, she was late, she was crying, it was just a whole shit show. It was a lot going on. I'm like, oh, that's interesting. So I reach out to the student and invite her to come to my office hours to talk about it. And her side of the story, very different. She, it was really raining very bad that day, and I remember it was raining really bad. And she couldn't find parking, which was starting to make her late. When she realized that she was about to be late, she started like going into a panic. She's like, oh my God, this instructor has young kids. I'm probably holding her up from going to pick up her kids from school because of the time it was. I'm just, oh my god, I can't believe I'm being late and like doing this to her life. She goes into the exam, and the instructor is straight up just like, all right, let's start the exam. Even though she already came in very disheveled and clearly something was wrong. She gets to the board, her mind goes blank, she starts crying. This whole time the instructor has the camera still rolling. She had a camera to record so she can look back at students' exams, and she still had it rolling while this student is at the board crying.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_03

And still expecting her to do this exam.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_03

And to me, if this was your child, if this was your relative, your your partner in life, and they're in front of you crying, I feel like you would have done something different. You may have stopped and said, hey, let's talk about it for a minute, or hey, let's move your exam to Monday and let's talk about this because you're clearly having some issues. That's not what she did. And to find out, she never even followed up with the student to just talk about the situation itself. So for the rest of the semester, there was continuously this tension between them because they never even addressed the fact that that whole situation happened. So, of course, the student is going to feel a little like uh resistant to things that you say to her or when you call on her in class. Y'all had a really intense situation that you never talked to her about.

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm. This is so interesting for that that's like such a good story and really illustrates the point. But it's so interesting because I'm so conflicted as like a tutor here. We have hundreds of students and so many of them get accommodations. So I'm thinking, and correct me if I'm wrong, that this is what you would consider an equitable practice, right? Because like if a student, you know, has issues with like, you know, there's a bunch of different accommodations you can get. I don't know if if it's the same over there, but like a lot of students are allowed to write their tests in rooms alone, for example. Or like if they have the anxiety, they're allowed to get extra time or whatever the things are. Does that kind of count as an equity? Like, is that kind of what we're talking about?

SPEAKER_03

It does, but I like to challenge it even more and think about the culture of instructors and why is it that if that same situation I explained to you was to happen in like a social studies classroom, something that was more like social science-based, it may have panned out very different.

SPEAKER_01

That's so interesting. So, like the idea that like because math is so like black and white, objective, blah, blah, blah, that there's no like empathy in it. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03

That is so objective that we always don't really care about the social world and social science in this math classroom. So all these things that make you who you are uniquely, or that uh may concern you every day, you don't have to think about that here. That is false. We don't just walk in a math classroom and just take off everything else in the world when we go in there. We still have all the world's experiences acting on us. And every other subject, uh, some sciences not so much, but a lot of them do. Take this into consideration, but not math.

SPEAKER_01

I actually I love this. I love it because I always talk about like one of the most important things about the space we have here, like my tutoring space, is that, and I say this that kids don't have to like pretend to be someone else when they're doing math here, right? Like it's like the point. Yeah, it's like it's conducive, like you don't have to like put on a different hat and be like, okay, now I'm this cold hard mathematician in this white space that smells like peroxide or like you know, whatever the fuck schools smell like these days, you know, stale bubble gum. Like you're like, oh, I'm still like sitting on a couch, I'm still drinking a tea, I'm still surrounded by my friends, and I'm doing math, not like or I'm doing both. You might have just made that up, but I really like it.

SPEAKER_03

I really like that too. But yeah, you get it, you get it.

SPEAKER_01

No, you get it. Okay, I'm gonna I want to ask one more thing because I want to make sure we touched on it. Um, I believe you said that math has produced racial and harmful ideologies that block opportunities for a lot of people. Have we like touched on that enough? Like, is there like is there something I'm not asking you, or is there something you want to like share about that or any like specifics, or do you feel like we've talked about it?

SPEAKER_03

There are more, there's more that can be said on that. So, usually when I'm thinking about that issue, it's in the way that we it kind of goes to the example I gave earlier about the exam that had different languages and how different students will interpret it but still can arrive at the same goal. It's not easy to always arrive at the same goal. So, a lot of the reforms, especially here in the states, they have this language where they may try to say, you know, this is math for everybody. We do things that's equal for everyone, and we don't look at differences. That's how we're like promoting that math is for everyone. But by not paying attention to differences, when differences absolutely do exist, you're actually doing harm. Because there's this central language that we are all familiar with that needs to happen in math, but that language only privileges a certain group. So if people are not able to perform things in that way, in particular whiteness, be able to talk with whiteness, perform as whiteness, then which means it starts to become like, well, if you're not white, then you're not good at math. Because all the standards we have here are really correlated to what it means to be white and what white culture looks like. So if I'm not meeting those standards, then an easy equation here is that I don't fit in it at all. Same issue with things like the achievement gap. So here in America, there's a lot about the black-white mathematics achievement gap that we're trying to get black students to get to the same mathematics achievement level as white students. But why do we have to do that comparison at all? That's still pushing to reach a certain cultural threshold. We don't hear a lot about the white Asian gap, even though Asian students are outperforming white students. But we do always about this black-white, but we do always hear about this black-white achievement gap.

SPEAKER_01

Why?

unknown

Racism.

SPEAKER_01

Why don't we hear about a white game? It's higher, like, so is it like higher? No, because now I'm like trying to figure this out because the white Asian achievement gap, I'm assuming like Asians would be on the the higher threshold, right? So you would be like, but technically white privilege is higher than like Asian math privilege. I don't even know it's not a good idea.

SPEAKER_03

No, that's correct though, because because whiteness also has a very pervasive culture where you can see tenets of white culture in Asian culture, like the imitation of wanting blonde hair or wanting to be whiter and not blacker, because that is a thing. And let me be clear just for anyone who's listening, that anything I say, I don't believe in generalizations. So I do not believe that this applies to everyone. I never believe that. But for what we're talking about now, like there are a lot of these things that are pulling towards whiteness as this center of this is what we need to attract to, and it still happens in math. And the way that we're pushing reforms and the language we use, the way that we teach it, and what we privilege as like worthy knowledge and as worthy answers, they all are really aligned with one particular way of being. Oh my god, I'm actually tripping out right now.

SPEAKER_01

No, but seriously, I really I really am because like I'm thinking, I'm even thinking about the way that like you're forced to give an answer, or like the language you're supposed to use, or like what's considered proper form. Like, no, I mean, I haven't fleshed out my idea in my mind, but I am thinking about the fact that there are so many of those types of rules in math that are actually subjective rules. Like the objectivity might lie in the answers and what a right, like and I'm using quotation matters in my brain, what a right answer is, but like in the way it needs to be delivered or in the way you have to get to that answer. Like, what about all that shit? Like, you know how like we only value certain types of processes, and like if you get to the answer the wrong way, like we are like, nope, you're wrong, too bad.

SPEAKER_03

Right. And the processes, like I was saying with the quiz I experienced, when I think about my own students, if my students were to do a problem, use a wrong process, and be aware the entire time that they knew it was wrong and why, down to like the smallest detail of why, that is amazing. Like to me, that's like that is so and I say it's amazing because in the past I had issues with linear algebra. So for me to be in this class and be that hyper aware, it was amazing to me. Like, oh my God, you clearly have grown a lot since the last time you've seen this content because this is not something I would have recognized years ago. Right. But now I do. But yet I'm kind of stuck because I'm also sick and going through all this other stuff.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah. I this is so fascinating. I honestly I feel like like if there's one thing I've learned from this conversation, is I have so much to learn. Like, I'm I I I really can't wait. Yeah, I know. Like, I I definitely want to we'll put some resources and stuff in the show notes. I would love to just hear like some top things that we can even like just read or listen to to get like more acquainted with this whole idea because I honestly feel like, and I'm coming from a space where I do research in mathematics and like subjectivity and how it affects like marginalized groups, and I'm so uneducated on this. You know, like everything you're saying is like literally blowing my mind up.

SPEAKER_03

That's it's good though. And I'm happy that we're doing this so that more people can be aware because yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's just good for people to be aware of this. It helps.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it totally helps. And I think it's like important to know that we're all kind of complicit in the in math culture. Like it's you don't just need to be a teacher or a parent to be influencing the social narrative around who can do math and what it means to do math, right? Like, so everyone listening to this, the way we talk about it, the way we treat people, the stereotypes we make, the inferences we make about someone's ability and why it is that way. Like, yeah, like even like I'm just thinking about this idea of like how many people I know for sure have hold on to that stereotype that like if you're Asian, you're good at math. You know, and I and that's not true. And it's not true. I've you know, I've met actually like Asian people who have been scarred by that stereotype because talk about stereotype threat. Like they're just like, like, yeah, I was bad at math, and because of this stereotype, it was a million times worse for me. So, like, yeah, I think it is really important to be aware. Thank you so much. Like, seriously, amazing. Having this interview, I'm like, fuck, like, I do feel very uneducated, but you're educating me, so it's fine.

SPEAKER_03

We're here, we're learning, we are learning.

SPEAKER_01

My cole's giving me math therapy, basically. Oh my god, yes, we're giving each other math therapy. Okay, last two questions. So the first question is if you had to pick something, what would you change about the way that math is taught?

SPEAKER_03

Oh, I love this question. One thing that I would change about the way math is taught is the way, even though I'm like so against the way uh focusing on content more than the students, I really wish that math classes were flipped in the order that we learn mathematics. The things that I learn now in these advanced mathematics courses are very abstract. But if you explain it the right way, explain in a way that makes sense to like a toddler or a kindergartner, or let's say like a first or second grader, I feel like there's no reason why they wouldn't be able to understand it. And that we should really be re-motivating how we teach math, like starting with the bigger ideas and then teasing away at it to learn all the relevant information. Because everything you learn over the years is not necessarily important at that moment, and you're bound to forget it by the time you actually need it anyway. So why not put the motivation much earlier in the beginning? Even if it means doing more like project-based learning type of deals in a math classroom where you can actually see all the aspects of a real life situation and use the math that's relevant for that moment. Learn the math that's relevant for that moment.

SPEAKER_01

Right. So, like, and that sounds so much cooler and like more fun, right? Like, actually, like, yeah, I think that's a cool, that's a really cool idea. Like, I there's always that idea of like, do we just teach the building blocks first or do we teach abstract concepts first? But I think that's an interesting idea that if you did it in a fun way that's relatable to to the, you know, the room that you're teaching, that it could be really motivating for kids to be like, wow, that's a really cool problem or concept. I want to actually learn more about it and I want to get down to those building blocks.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I'm always really impressed with the way that Montessori schools work. I don't know if you're really familiar, like with their structure, that at least for the early ages, they really do this self-exploratory type of learning. Whatever the students are interested in, that's what they study, that's what they teach them. They'll just go really deep into it and find different ways to connect students. And I love that idea of approaching learning. Kids are naturally curious, they want to learn things, they want to figure out things. But when you think about the way we do schooling right now, it just pulls all the fun out of it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. It just, ugh, there's no there's no room for curiosity in schooling.

SPEAKER_03

None, none at all. And the way that our classes are structured, where we do every subject in its own particular time, that those are remnants from like World War II where we had to like do this type of factory way of educating folks.

SPEAKER_00

I always say this. I'm like, hello, the whole reason school was created this way was to pump out assembly lines of people who could just rule follow. And we're still doing it. And we're still doing it.

SPEAKER_01

I know it's so fucked up. It's like what our world needs now more than anything is creative problem solving, not rule following. Look at where rule following's gotten us. I know. See, this is where we're gonna do it. There we go.

SPEAKER_03

Those are the words, not the rule following. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

I know, but that's why I feel like it must be a conspiracy theory. I'm like, this is a conspiracy theory that we're not changing schools. Like, I really honestly kind of low-key think that they just want to still pump out obedient citizens that like don't chew gum in class and follow rules because they're scared, they're threatened.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly so, okay, another point that I just need to make real quick here is when I talk about like don't dumb down content. A lot of times, if you're in a low-income area that's under-resourced, the mathematics that they're doing is really uh procedural computational things that computers can already do in like a hundredth of a second. But yet we keep pushing that type of thinking, the rule following, the procedural, computational type things to people in low-income areas more than anything. They may not have the opportunity to see the multi-layers and the interdisciplinary problems and all that, which comes from what type of teachers are going there. Are they motivated to how do they look at these students? Do they see these students as the stereotypes that are keep getting pushed that are negative, or do they see these students as like all the brilliance and intelligence that they do have? Right. If you looked at them and really thought they were capable and could really contribute to this world in ways that's meaningful for them, not just for society's purposes, but meaningful for them, you would find other ways to engage them with that content in more creative ways. But that really comes down to the person who was putting that content in front of them and what they believe.

SPEAKER_01

Ugh, so well said. Oh my god, I loved it. I feel like we both just got like so mad. Okay, final question. Final question. What would you say to someone who does not think that they're a math person?

SPEAKER_03

Now that we had this whole conversation, it'll be thinking about what is a math person, right? Because we can sit here and say, like, yes, I do go by mathematical and I push a lot of math, but we also sat here and talked about all the anxiety and trauma that I've also experienced through it. So, what is it that we glorify about this math person? What aspect of it? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And I mean, like, do you even think there's such a thing?

SPEAKER_03

No, I don't. I think it's a matter of people finding their interests. And I hate the language of I had to leave STEM or I had to leave math. To me, it's not that you left something, you found something that was more fulfilling for you and gave you more joy, which is what anyone should do. It's finding that actually brings you joy.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's so funny. Like I'm realizing as I'm interviewing you that like it's weird. Like I feel like I don't know how to ask the questions because I don't want to be like offensive. Like it's really bad.

SPEAKER_03

And you know, that's also the hard part with all this work because even all the things I'm critiquing about the classroom, I'm aware that I'm also guilty of pushing forward a lot of those things in the past, but I'm I'm now awake and aware. And it does make me feel a little tiptoe a lot.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's the best way to describe it, actually. I was like, I wanted to ask you questions, but I felt like I needed to like tiptoe around them because I was like, what right do I have to ask? The questions. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, I'm like almost like crying or yeah, Michael, I know exactly. But I guess it's like, I don't know. I I do feel weird about it. Like, I'm like, I feel weird about being like, so tell me about the experience of black people. Well, wait, I'm not supposed to be generalizing black people, obviously. But like I still have you know, I do feel weird.

SPEAKER_03

And I and I'm in the same space, which is also why I don't have things written yet, because I'm still in my phase of this doctoral program of learning how to like be comfortable with your beliefs and saying them and not feeling like I don't know, this everything you're saying, I'm still in that process now of just trying to figure out what that is to not feel tiptoe.

SPEAKER_01

Well, okay, well, honestly, thank you so much because you made me feel like I really did feel like I was getting therapy from you. Um you honestly you did make me feel a lot better, and like you're a really good like teacher, and in terms of like making me feel like no question's a stupid question, like you're very good at that. So I think that's a great skill, and your students are very lucky. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast. You've honestly given me so much to think about. I literally, my mind is blowing up in the best way. So thank you so much, Michole. Thank you. So happy to be here.

SPEAKER_03

Bye. Bye.

SPEAKER_01

Was I right or was I right? Like, are you guys freaking out? How good was that? It's crazy because, like, I know I talked about it with Michole, but it's really interesting how nervous I almost was going into the interview because, like, I didn't want to sound stupid or offend her by asking questions. But the truth is that we can't learn about other people's experiences without asking. And assuming that it's better to just guess than to straight up ask is what leads to harmful assumptions in the first place. So I'm glad I asked. And, well, I hope that all of you are too. I encourage all of you to learn something new about someone this week. Seriously, ask that question you've always wanted to know the answer to. You will likely be amazed at what comes out of it. Do it, and make sure you tell me how it goes because hey, we can all learn from one another. As always, you can find links to all the stuff we talked about in this episode on our show notes at themathguru.ca slash math therapy. Please follow me on socials at the Math Guru for more of me and Math Therapy. And of course, a reminder that Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vicaria, produced by Sabina Wex, and edited by David Koachberg. Our theme song is Waves by my band, Goodnight Sunrise. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or needs to hear someone getting it, please share this podcast and consider leaving us a quick review on whatever podcast app you use. Those two things make a huge, huge difference. I am as determined as you are to see a change in the culture surrounding math education, and I need your help. That's all for this week. Stay tuned for our next episode. Out as usual, next Thursday.