SPEAKER_00

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vicaria, aka the Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. And don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Hey guys, what's up and welcome to this week's episode of Math Therapy. Okay, so today I talked to the amazing Bruce Sellery, who is the author of two best-selling books, including my fave, Moolala, Why Smart People Do Dumb Things with Their Money and What You Can Do About It. He's also the national money columnist for CBC Radio and the host of the weekly Moolala Radio Show and Podcast on Sirius XM, which actually I was a guest on, and that's how we met in the first place. Bruce is on a mission to help people get a handle on their money so they can live the life they want, which is like the coolest thing ever. He speaks, he writes, he consults, and he uses every media format to engage audiences in a smart, fun, high-energy way. I'm just so excited for you guys to hear this episode because seriously, Bruce is hilarious. And not only does he share some groundbreaking insight on math and money, but just as importantly, he teaches us the ultimate strategy to use when eating at a buffet, which, let's be honest, is definitely vital info. Let's do this. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. So, as you know, this is a podcast called Math Therapy. Yes. And we are in the process of just figuring out what that means.

SPEAKER_02

And you're gonna resolve any issues that I have from Miss Thompson's grade four multiplication tables that she made us do by rote. Okay, let's start with that. No, I quite like that. And in fact, as a parent, I sort of think, where are the multiplication tables? Because it's nostalgia for me. And my daughter doesn't do them.

SPEAKER_00

So I always wonder, because obviously we tutor a ton of kids math.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And the main thing is people are like, oh my god, rote math, where is it? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I still, I mean, when I talk to math teachers, they're all like, no, we teach the times tables.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. They do it in a grid versus with circles, which is just, I don't even know what's happened. Right. It's like our values have disappeared or something.

SPEAKER_00

So I remember, I remember doing like speed times trials of the times tables. Did it cause me panic and stress? Yes. Did I not like it? No. I actually, it was a rush of adrenaline, like before, you know, in track and field and before a race. So I actually wonder, I have wondered this for a while, but it's kind of like, uh, do you say this out loud? Well, I guess I'm going to. But like that idea of feeling stressed out before doing a time trial, is that a bad thing?

SPEAKER_02

No.

SPEAKER_00

Right?

SPEAKER_02

No, it's not a bad thing. That's the thing. I don't think it's a bad thing. It's like the stress. So I do a lot of speaking. A lot of people get really worried about speaking, and they they interpret the physiological response of that stress as being bad. Right. It's not bad. Right. It's just your body doing whatever it's doing and your heart rate's pumping and you're sweating, and it's like that is just what's happening. You're not gonna die. It's your primate brain, it's all fine, move through it, move on.

SPEAKER_00

Well, so and that's really interesting because when when you're talking to kids about like this idea of being stressed around math, obviously, we see a lot of kids with diagnosed math anxiety or generalized anxiety. So, one of the biggest things, and I do a lot of speaking to two kids about anxiety and two parents about it. And it's obviously a kind of a tricky topic, but you know, there's sort of a difference between having actual diagnosed anxiety and being stressed out. And I did do a lot of reading about it, and I found, and it's interesting because you're you're a marathon runner. Yes, right? You're an athlete. So part of what athletes use is the feeling that anxiety produces or the adrenaline rushing through their bodies, they actually utilize that in order to like run faster and to this and that and whatever. So I always wonder like, shouldn't we be talking about how to use stress right in order to do better? Instead of this idea of blanking out, what if you used it to fuel the process? Yeah, right? I agree. Okay, okay, great. So we've agreed, so let's move on. Okay, okay, so let's go. So you have your thing is money. Yes. So I find this interesting for two reasons. Number one, one of the biggest things we hear over here at the Math Groom about why kids don't like math is that it's not relevant, right? And most people are like, why aren't we talking about money? That's actually like what we hear all the time. So this is interesting because A, you are like kind of the practical like, you know, avenue of where math is used. Yeah. But B, you're talking to adults most of the time.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I'm I'm actually interested in how math plays out, like what kind of reactions you get, like how you treat math when you're talking about money. Like, give me kind of like the vibe.

SPEAKER_02

Well, the the thing about personal finance is the math that it's based on is so incredibly simple. Right. It is adding and subtracting. Okay. So what's the number one principle of money you need to earn more than you spend? Right. That uh a grade four student can do your budget. They can add up the columns, they can see, oh, you've got this amount coming in, and I subtracted all of your expenses, and it's a negative number now. This isn't good, you can't sustain that. So though this is not derivatives, this is not advanced calculus, this is very, very basic stuff. And so I think the pitfall for a lot of people is they get stuck in this. I'm not good at math, and they extrapolate that to personal finance to think, well, I can never have a lot of money when I would say, Did you pass grade four math? Because if you did, you're good. You are good to go. Right. And I think what um one of the things that people do is they, I mean, we are uh excuse addicts. We are always looking for an excuse or a justification or a rationalization for not having the result that we want. And so some people trot out the I'm not good at math, some people trot out I don't have enough willpower, some people trot out life is expensive, like they trot out whatever they trot out, and but I don't buy any of it. Like you need to get a handle on your money so you can live the life you want. And there are lots of things you need to do, but I don't buy any of the excuses. It's not to say that I don't have compassion for the excuses or an understanding of the circumstances. I have all that. Yeah. I just don't buy it because I believe that people are actually capable of getting a handle on their money.

SPEAKER_00

And like basically every excuse you just gave me is surmountable. All of them are surmountable. Like none of those things are like absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

And then when you think about the ones that are insurmountable, you can still see people who get over those ones. Like what's wrong? Well, they go someone who goes through a devastating divorce followed by a cancer diagnosis, followed by the the death of a pet and a parent in long-term care. Oh my god. And somehow they remain vertical. Right. And five years later, they manage to get rid of their credit card debt and return to work and they like they live. And we think, oh boo hoo, I can't, you know, afford to X, Y, and Z.

SPEAKER_00

So, like, why do you put it this way, actually, to sound so like passionate? Like you can't. Oh, I am very passionate about it. Right, because like this person you just described, like, how exciting would it be for them to get back on their feet and get rid of that crap? So, what made you start all this?

SPEAKER_02

So I have been uh I've been thinking about money since I was a very young person. So I when I was in grade eight, my brother sold me his year-round property maintenance business. So this is lawns in the summer, yeah, lawns in the summer, snow in the winter, but it was a thing. So the snow was knocked up in Toronto. No, London, Ontario. The snow was snow insurance. So all the customers paid one amount. The lawns were on contract. He created this business when he was 13. He sold it to me when he was 18, I know. And he sold it to me for 50% of year one revenues and book value on equipment. It was both the best thing I ever did and the worst thing I ever did because it never worked harder. And within weeks of starting this business, I'd like ruined my first lawn mower and it was a disaster. But I always had this business, and so I made money. I was in money, but I was very judicious about how I spent it. So by the time I was in summer of grade 11, grade 12, I went to French immersion for the summer and someone else ran the business. I was a camp counselor and someone else ran the business. I sold the business and went traveling to Europe for six months. So I've always lived at that intersection of work and play. And that's really what I bring to people. Like some people who don't actually know what I do think that I'm frugal, they think that I'm uh anal, they think that I'm all about the money, and I'm not. I'm all about how do we inspire people to get a handle on their money so that they can live the life they want. That's the purpose. So you're not just like accumulating coins. No, and my my work is resonant for people with $50 million, and it's resonant for people on social assistance because it's the same game. It's different amounts and different priorities and different challenges, but it's the same game. There are lots of people at the high end of the income structure uh income um level who are terrible with their money and who have a real stress about how are they gonna pay their bills. And it's that sure they make 500 grand a year, but they've got three kids in private school and summer camps and a boat and a ski place and a summer place, and you know, they're headed to Africa and Safari and they aren't managing their money, even though to someone who makes 40 grand a year, they think they've got all the money in the world.

SPEAKER_00

Right. So you obviously do all this stuff, like you know, you're on the radio, you're on TV, blah, blah, blah. But when you're I know you interview a wide range of people, I know you, as you said, you deal with a wide range of people. So, what do you find the roadblock is when it comes to like what? So you gave us the excuses. Let's go to the like, I'm not good at math excuse.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, for a sec, just because you know, we're sorry about math. So, what do you find comes up? Like, what what do you have do these people state any reasons why they're not good at math or why they can't do this grade four math?

SPEAKER_02

No, uh, they don't to me. And the reason is I don't particularly care. Right. Because I think that's um intellectual um candy floss. It's it's like, ooh, let's talk, let's go to therapy to think about talk about why am I not gonna math that Louise Thompson wasn't. Well, sure, let's have a therapist eventually. But like talking about the thing, it's not what I trade in. So I get it, you're not good at math. Awesome. So here's what I want you to do. I want you to do these four things. So I'm not denying that you have that issue with math. And if you want to go talk to a therapist about that or go to a tutor and talk about that, that's fantastic. But you don't need to be good at math to do what I need you to do to get a handle on your money so you can live life. So I'm just not, I don't trade in that.

SPEAKER_00

Do you find, um, this is just now a personal musing because I have like this whole theory, do you find that the people who whose excuse is I'm not good at math?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Right? Do you find that that trans translates like into confidence more than the people who are like, give you another range of excuse?

SPEAKER_02

I don't know the answer to that question. But here's what I would say. So if someone has whatever excuse they have about money, I stop and I ask them this question: What is your money for? And they'll be like, well, then where my rent, and then my morning, and then again. All that. Okay, I get all that. What is it? What's the purpose of it? So money is this amazing tool, and we've got tools all over our house. We've got screwdrivers and power drills and Vitamixes and neutral bullets and pairing knives. We've got all these great tools, and we can use them. There's a utility to each of these tools. Money's a tool. It's all it is. You can make up that you're better than someone or worse than someone because of the amount in your bank account. I don't buy any of that. I think of money as a tool. So if you've got this tool, what are you going to use it for? And where you start to have people answer are things like family. My money's for family, my money's for experiences, my money's for contribution, my money's for legacy, my money's for fun, my money's for whatever it is. And when you get them there, then first of all, you see start to see the sparkle in their eyes because they're talking about something that's like, oh, I'm so excited about this thing. And then I can enable them to do better with the tool to get more fun, adventure, experiences, family, whatever it is. Right. So I want to shift the entire conversation. It's not that the math isn't uh important, it's just so basic. Yeah. But let's get to experiences. And then it's an insight uh with an early participant in one of my workshops. And she was like, Okay, let me get this straight. Are you telling me? Are you telling me, honestly, if I do these three things, I'm gonna get to travel more? And I paused for like a good 10 seconds and then I said, Oh yes, that is what I am telling you. If you do these three things, you are going to travel more. And she's like, Okay, all right, I'll do those three things. Because there's so much jargon, there's so much marketing, there's so much crap out there that we've lost the simplicity of it. And so it is so, so simple. We we talked about, so I run marathons, I have in the past, I'm gonna run one in the future. And one of the huge insights for me on this path was one of my coaches back in the beginning said, You want to run a marathon? It's three things. What do you mean it's three things? No, no, no. I need to be, I need a sports therapist, I need a physical therapist on set, I need shoes from Nike's RD department. I need, it's like, no, no, you need good shoes and maybe orthotics. You need um to run three times a week. That's a man, yeah. Three times a week. Three times a week. And there was some other super simple thing. It's like, you do that, you run a marathon. Yeah, you run a marathon. And that's the truth. Now, the thing that's of course in that is it's actually quite hard. Like, do it the the doing is difficult, but the what to do is not difficult. And it's the same with money. What to do to get a handle on your money, not difficult. Doing it's difficult, right?

SPEAKER_00

Like not spending the thing when you want to buy the coffee or whatever. Yeah, that's and it is the same with math, actually. If you really think about it, it's like what you need to do, it's quite obvious. Like practice problems, yeah, check the answers, go over them when you get them wrong. But yes, actually sitting down to do it can be difficult. Yeah, so that actually is quite similar.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And and there are people who don't want to do the work. Yeah. That's I get it, that's fine. There are lots and lots of things I don't want to do, lots and lots of things to do. It's just the it's not a very helpful question. So the question, do you want to do the math homework? Do you want to do the work to get a handle on your money? I would answer no. I don't want to do that. No, but do you want the end result? Do you want the end result? What are you committed to? What's your money for? So, what's my money for is adventure travel experiences. And here's what it's gonna take. It's gonna take these things. I want to get a great mark in math because I want to go to architecture school, or I want to, like, I don't know what people would say when they come in here.

SPEAKER_00

Maybe that is the thing though, because actually, as as you're saying this, I'm thinking with money, it always seems like this whole big like, I honestly think we have we're in this place where it's just the whole the whole notion is just to get more money and no one knows why.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so if that was if that was the case, A, you wouldn't be very motivated, and B, that would seem like an insurmountable task because what does more money mean? Yeah. Whereas if you're saying you want to go on this specific trip, like all of a sudden things become more manageable. Yeah. And I think maybe the same thing I think is happening with math in a sense, or has always, where, because what's the number one question? Why do I need this? Why do I need to do well in it? Right. Right. So the only real motivation for a teenager now is well, I need this grade to get into architecture school. Right. That's that's all it is. Yeah. But for all the other kids who don't know, you're not in grade eight thinking, well, maybe you are, but like thinking, you know, you want to get into like business school or this and that. So the motivation is completely gone.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Right. So unless there is some other intrinsic motivation that we can give someone as to why you should do well or put in the time to understand this thing that might be hard for you. Yeah. And I think that's where we're falling apart. Because really, right, like there, I I mean, that's my personal belief is that whenever kids are like, but why, but why, but why? My answer isn't like, well, you might need this as, you know, when you're walking down the street, you might need to calculate, blah, blah, blah. My answer is because you'll be a cooler person if you know more stuff. Or if you learn to think in different ways.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think what we can do, me and money and you and math, can provide people with this extraordinary all-you-can-eat buffet of reasons of why you want to get a hell on your money or why you want to get better at math. Right. Because what resonates for person A doesn't resonate for person B. So we'll give them the buffet, and then they'll walk along the buffet and then be like, ah, shellfish, I love shellfish, and oh, look at these baked goods. And now, when you shop a buffet, I don't know if you know this, always eat the most expensive items. So no carbs because you want to get value from the buffet. Okay, but yeah, always the most expensive fresh, fresh fruit, but no pasta, limited bread, only if it's amazing bread. So I want you to go to the prime rib, maybe the Yorkshire pudding, because it's kind of like an 80s throwback a treat. But you need to shop the buffets well if you're gonna go to a buffet meal.

SPEAKER_00

I have not been to a buffet in like forever.

SPEAKER_02

I know, yeah, I know. I don't you don't go to them as much as we used to.

SPEAKER_00

A breakfast buffet.

SPEAKER_02

Well, when I shop the breakfast band for sure. Shop the breakfast buffet very, very well. So here's what I would say on the on the math question of why math, and I never thought about this as a young person, but they're you're building what is a what is a youth, a child, a youth, a young adult building, they're building scaffolding.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

So, what is the scaffolding that is going to hold up this building called their life? And there is a huge importance to learning how to think. And math is important. Uh, storytelling in English is important, uh, law is important. There are lots of different ways that you can build the scaffolding, but math is one of them.

SPEAKER_00

Hmm. I love it. I completely agree. Yeah. So now you have a daughter, right? I do.

SPEAKER_02

And what how it worked great? Her name's Abby, she's nine and a half. She just got her haircut. It's a um cutout on one side. No, it's a cutout on one side, and then kind of like a she did an undercut here too. It looks amazing. I'll show you.

SPEAKER_00

So you mean like a fade on one side?

SPEAKER_02

Not like a cutout shape. Uh, not a shape. I'll show you the picture later. You two.

SPEAKER_00

I've always wanted that. Like the skrillax look. Like the one-sided shape.

SPEAKER_02

I don't know. She knew what she wanted and she got it, and it looks amazing. God, she sounds so cool. I want to be your friend. She's very cool.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so what is the vibe with her? Like, does she does she ever come across the like, I don't want to do math, I'm off the phone. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. Oh, yeah. We had her in a particular math program which required birote learning, and she hated it. And it becomes became such a source of conflict. We stopped doing it.

SPEAKER_00

Why did you put her in it?

SPEAKER_02

Uh, because of my like family culture around the importance of math and starting early. And uh, I have a sister who's an educator, her kids all went through that program, and it made a big difference for them. And it's just not a fit for her. It's not a fit for everybody. I think I might have gone through that program. Yeah, you might have gone through that program.

SPEAKER_00

But I don't I think it did make me better at mental math. Yeah. And I get it at it.

SPEAKER_02

And I think the other thing about pro any of those programs is one of the things that you're also teaching is um self-regulation and discipline. Right. And getting used to doing things you don't want to do because that's life. Right. And as a parent, that is one of the very hard lessons. And it's extraordinarily hard when you have an only child and you are a middle or upper upper income family, because there is no actual scarcity. So I'm not talking about someone who lives on social assistance, but for people who have jobs, really, really, really, there's food on the table and there's a roof over your head. So there's no actual scarcity. You you may think there's scarcity because you've got, you know, credit card debt and whatever, but if you don't have 10 kids, there's no actual scarcity. You're gonna be able to go get pasta at no frills and have something to eat. So, how as parents do we create artificial scarcity so that we can teach our children to learn to live in a world of fixed resources or scarce resources? Fascinating. Yeah. So what do you do? Oh my goodness. Well, she's on allowance. Okay, yeah. So allowance is a very important thing for me, given what I do with money. And uh, there's no more. So when she wants to go shopping for a book or a stuffy or, you know, beauty products or whatever she wants, it's her money, and there's no more. So my wallet is closed. And what's fantastic about that is she has developed an ability to be judicious about it. Now, one of the higher level things we've instituted on her allowance is uh investing because we're trying to teach the magic of compound interest.

SPEAKER_00

This is very exciting. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so she gets the four jars, which most people do, but the fourth jar, that's the innovation, is so she gets four dollars a week in saving, spending, donating, and investing. But with donating, in the beginning, she gets a nickel. She gets an extra nickel. She gets a dollar plus a nickel for the first month, uh, then it's a dime, then it's 25 cents, then it's 50 cents, then it's 75 cents, and it tops out at 75 cents. So that's over six months if she hasn't spent any of her investing money. She's getting $1.75 every single week, and she hoards that like you know, it's the last jar of money on earth. And then eventually she'll spend it and she'll buy something. And sometimes it's ridiculous, and I'm just like, oh my god, I can't believe you bought that. But it's her choice. I have no say, provided it's uh, you know, within the realms of what we value as a family. Because she can spend it on she can spend it on a jewel, she could buy a jewel. No, so what do you mean a jewel like a like a jewelry? What's a jewel? Is that a drug? I'm like um. Oh, she cannot buy a vape. And she will never be a basic. I'm changing the locks if she does that.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

The indoctrination on all that stuff began when she was born.

unknown

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

She can buy a jewel. What is that?

SPEAKER_02

Like, is that like an emerald or a ruby? No, she did not buy vape.

unknown

No.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02

God. Okay, that was great. Sorry. So that's allowance. So allowance is one way. Another way that we I'm kind of segueing to a question you didn't ask, but that I like is how do we live and breathe math? When we go to the grocery store, uh, we give her, you know, like, okay, but you you choose the snacks, so you're choosing the crackers, or you're choosing the, you know, the treats or whatever. And so she'll be walking around either with me or I let her wander around the store on her own. But every time she brings something back to the cart, I will ask her, how much does that cost? So she now knows to pay attention to what it costs because I'm sending her back to tell me how much it costs. And uh when we're at the shelf together, there's she likes those um little flavor squirts that you put in carbonated water. Oh, yeah, I love it. I love it. Fantastic, delicious. Well, I love a good aspartame. Like the crystal light forcing through my hair. Yeah, so I see that one. That's $3.79. Interesting. Now that one is two for seven dollars. What do you think about that? That one's two for five dollars. Which should we buy? What do you think? And she'll sometimes she'll spend 10 minutes at the shelf looking at the flavors and looking at the deals, and she's obviously doing mental math there to say, let's get it's like the two for five dollar one. And then we get two, because I'm not buying two at 379. Right. I will buy two at 250, which equals five dollars. So there's that kind of does she get annoyed? Do you guys ever fight about it? Oh, well, uh, we don't fight about it, but it it's very clear, it's my rules. So so I just if we fight about it, we're just not buying the squirty stuff for the drinks. Like we're leaving the store right now and put those goldfish down because they're not coming either. I am a very fun and super annoying parent.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I can see it.

SPEAKER_02

Like those two things, super fun, super annoying.

SPEAKER_00

But that's a great mix.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I don't know. I don't know any other way to be.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, no, I think it's good. I think super fun without being super annoying. That's too much. Your kids buying a jewel at that point. I don't even know what that is, but they're not super annoying without being super fun. Well, that sucks. Yeah, not gonna be any good memories. I think it's a good combo. You know what? It's that's a comedian combo. You know, they're super fun, but they're kind of annoying, but that makes the jokes kind of good when they're good, and then like I like it. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so thinking back to your childhood, because you obviously are very you you said you've always been into money. Did that translate when you were a kid to being really into math? And did you ever struggle with math? Like, did you have any emotional response to math?

SPEAKER_02

No, I didn't. I was, I would say I was fine at math, but on reflection, I would have been in the top 10% of the class in math, in only that that's how the marks worked. But I was never held out as the math star. I wasn't in the math club. I don't know. I I think a part of it is family expectations. My parents expected that we would do well in school, but it wasn't like it was a big topic. I never remember them talking about my report card. I never remember a parent-teacher interview. I'm the youngest of five, so I often say my parents didn't even know if I was home half the time because like there's just so many kids around. Like, I don't know where he is. So I always felt loved and adored and supported, but there wasn't a lot of focus that I remember on my academics at all. So I think where I had a really hard time was in grade 10 calculus because Why are you doing calculus in grade 10?

SPEAKER_00

Was it not in grade 10?

SPEAKER_02

No. Was it grade 12? Yes. I don't know. I was doing calculus. Maybe it was grade 12. It was. But I remember very clearly, it was the first time I just didn't get it. Okay. Like I couldn't get it. It was the first time in grade 12. It was impenetrable to me. And I remember being in class, and Mr. Brown was my teacher, and he walked over, you know, that like when the skies part moment, and he like pointed at the piece of paper, and he's like, ha, ha ha. And the skies cleared, and the all of a sudden the numbers came into focus. I began to weep, Xanphere started to play, and I could do it for the first time. And I felt like, oh my god, okay, the skies have cleared, but it may only last for another five minutes. So do as much work as you can before it is done. And then I got, you know, in the 90s on math and got into Queen's Commerce and did fine in math. But then in university, I was with a bunch of people who were extraordinary in math.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

There was no, they were all the top 10% in math, or they weren't there. So I was not, like, that was not a strength relative to my did you care? Not particularly. I cared deeply about Marx. Deeply, deeply about Marx. Okay. But I didn't care about math. One of my pivotal educational moments was a fight that I had with my back then grade 13, I guess, or OAC functions teacher who assigned this project. I did what I thought was an outstanding job. It included uh an audio soundtrack to this project about the Sydney Opera House, and she gave me 63% on a university credit, and I got the mark. I stood up, walked to the front of the room, and said, How dare you! Did you say that? And then I left the room and slammed the door and uh drove into the countryside and wept in my car. I totally did this, I totally did this. And then I went back a couple days later and said, I would like to talk about negotiating this mark, and she would not budge. What was her reading? She would not budge. I didn't deliver on the uh assignment. And and she's right. She's right. So the lesson I took from that, it was years before I was able to distill the lesson because I was still angry. If I were to see her in public, I'd still be angry. But what I would say to her is the lesson she taught me was read the instructions. Read the instructions. Big fucking lesson. Read the instructions and do what is asked. And I thought, and to some extent still think, that my charm and charisma will get me around the rules. And they often they do. Like I do because I'm I find it easy to talk to people, I often get things because I can kind of charm my way into them. That's how you got into the podcast. Yes, exactly. Charm my way in. But with math, there are instructions. Right. And read the instructions and do what is asked. So that was a very valuable thing. But in the moment, I was infuriated.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, I really want to talk about that forever, but we cannot. No. We must move on. Yes. Um, let's let's wrap up to the final two questions that I asked everyone. Okay. The first being do you think there is such a thing as someone being incapable of doing math or innately not a math person?

SPEAKER_02

Uh I do in that I absolutely believe that people's brains are wired differently, and things that come easy to one person don't come easy to another person. So absolutely that's true, and that plays out in the psychometric testing. It isn't to say that people's brains aren't trainable, because we also know that. That's in the data, that's in the neuroplasticity that you know scientists have been working on for decades. So if you would say, geez, my brain's not designed this way, it's very, very hard for me, I would think about what is the way that you can mitigate the weakness of that and do the work to get you to a point where it's not uh as pronounced a weakness, and then play the fuck out of your strengths. Right. Because you're never going to be, I am never going to be an extraordinary math person, it but it doesn't matter. It's it's I'm gonna be extraordinary and something else.

SPEAKER_00

And I guess like, you know, so many people really believe that you're born with either this aptitude or inaptitude for math, and there's nothing you can do about it.

SPEAKER_02

Oh no, I don't believe that. But I don't believe that in any area. I think there are relative, absolutely, there are things that are people are relatively good at, but uh you're training yourself. So what are you gonna do to train yourself?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, just I mean, it's just like running, right? Yeah, yeah. Like you're not born being able to run a marathon. And sure, someone might be born with like longer legs or muscular structure, whatever it is, but that doesn't mean that another person can't run a marathon with maybe a little harder work or different training. Yeah. Okay, my second question is if you could pick one thing, what would you change about the way math is taught?

SPEAKER_02

I would say that if I were king of the world and I were uh able to affect the curriculum, I would focus first on why this matters and help people understand why it matters. So, first of all, uh second of all, I also think there is a real risk in paying too much attention to people's concerns and not just saying, you have to do this, do this. So uh, and this I think as parents, we have to deal with this all the time. Abby wants everything, she wants it all now. And my job is not to say yes, my job is to uh help her become an adult, and that includes math. So quit your whining and go and do it. Right. So, how do we teach math? Yes, we need different ways to accommodate different learning styles, we need extra resources for people who need them, absolutely all that. And um, stop your complaining and do the work. I love it. Stop your complaining and do the work.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's what the episode's called. For finding children. That's it, that's it. Okay, so now we're at the final, the final frontier of the podcast where I, as your math therapist, am supposed to give you a prescription. Okay, yes. This is the first time I've been stumped. You just got it all sewed together, you know, on the f on the outside. On the outside. Okay, we're gonna have to we're gonna have to think about it and come back to it, and then we'll like pretend that I gave it to you.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, I'm gonna give you something. Okay. I love that prescription. Okay. Alright. I'll absolutely take that on. You got it. You have my word. Done. Great. That's great.

SPEAKER_00

That mystical thing. Okay, well, Bruce, it's been a real treat and a lot of other things. Um, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for the invitation. And we'll talk soon. We will. Bye. So, guys, we did decide on a prescription for Bruce, and we had him do it right on the spot since Bruce, being the typical student, refused to do any homework. You can find the quick inspirational videos we recorded of Bruce and his amazing one-liners on our website where we put all of our show notes. So just head over to themathguru.ca slash math therapy. Now, for more Bruce Celery, because let's be honest, who doesn't want a little more of that? Make sure to grab one of his books on Amazon and subscribe to his podcast, Moolala, on your favorite podcasting app. Please remember to follow us on all social media at the Math Guru for more math therapy. That's where we'll be posting extra episode-related content every single week. And of course, just a reminder that Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vicaria, produced by Sabina Wex, and edited by David Kochberg. And our theme song is Waves by Goodnight Sunrise, aka My Band. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast and write a quick review on iTunes. Those two things actually make such a big difference. I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math, and I need your help. So please spread the word. That's all for this week. Stay tuned for our next episode out next Thursday!