Hi, I'm Vanessa Vicaria, aka the Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. And don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Okay, I know I say this every single time, but seriously, I am so excited about this week's episode. Today we're talking to Jenna, who's actually one of our oldest students, who is now one of our best tutors. She's a first gen student, being the very first in her family to attend university, which is so cool. And she's also a person living with ADHD and a variety of learning disabilities, which we'll get into in this episode. She believes in the power of teaching and has a passion for inspiring youth to see math a different way. Jenna has hopes to pursue her interest in graduate school for epidemiology and eventually achieve her goal of becoming a pediatrician, which is a goal she had almost given up on before deciding to give math one last shot. Jenna has such an interesting perspective on learning disabilities and how they can actually help you work to the best of your abilities once you understand them. And what I love so much about Jenna is that she takes absolute pride in the countless times she has failed because she can count the lessons she's learned from them. See what I did there? A little math, guys. It's everywhere. Alright, you guys ready? I'm ready. Let's do it. So welcome to the podcast, Jenna. Thank you. Okay, so one of the coolest things um about you that I feel like everyone should know right away is that you used to be one of our students. Yeah, I think and you came to us because you were not doing well in math, which we're gonna get to, and now you're a tutor here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Which is like the coolest thing. So, okay, why don't we start by you just telling me, like, what would you say? Like, do you consider yourself a math person?
SPEAKER_02Um, honestly, if you asked me that like five years ago, I would have laughed at your face. Because I would have said, like, no, how much I hated math. It was like one of the most traumatizing experiences. Um, but that specific question, like, do I consider myself a math person? Even if you asked me for that right now, I wouldn't say yes, because I don't think that a math person exists.
SPEAKER_01So, like, I love that answer, obviously.
SPEAKER_02Um, I think that's like a concept that was made up by people to say that to put you kind of in categories and boxes, say, okay, you know, you're a smart person, you're a dumb person, you're a math person, you're an arts person. But the reality is is that you know it's interfluid. You can be a math person and an arts person if you want to be, but you know, so do I consider myself a math person? No. But do I like math? Yes. Um, so if I were to answer that, that would be kind of what I would touch on.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's a great answer. Um, well, okay, so tell us about like what is your history of math? Like, try it, like, tell me a bit of the story.
SPEAKER_02Oof, okay, this is a very long story, and I think it starts all the way back in the third grade. Um, so I remember we were doing place values and number blocks and learning about you know the hundredths and the tenths and stuff like that, and I was struggling with it a lot. And so my teacher, being my teacher, decided to pull me to the side and say, Hey, you know, you should come to me during recess and let's work on this. And me, you know, I'm I'm a studio student, like I like to do my work, so I said, Yeah, of course, let's do this. Um, and so she pulled me to the side and she worked with me, and you know, I didn't get it the first time, I didn't get the second time, I didn't get the third time, and by the time we reached that fourth lesson, she completely gave up on me. So she was like, you know, there's no use in doing this, um, stopped doing the extra practices during recess, kind of sat me to the back of the class on the side. I know, and then just from then on, just like she basically didn't expect anything of me.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_02So if I failed, great, I get a phone call home, and that was basically it. Um, she didn't really care at the fact that I was failing and I was in the third grade. You know, how do you expect a seven-year-old to fail?
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02That's crazy. A seven-year-old, exactly. Um, and I think from then it started slipping. By the time I got to like fourth grade, um, it got even worse, and because I wasn't doing well, I was very disruptive. So teachers would either move me to the back of the class, or what they would do is they would take my desk and face it away from the class towards the wall right next to the garbage can. What? Yeah, why? Because I was considered disruptive, and they were like, you're not gonna learn anyway, so why should you sit with the other kids allowed to learn? But the reality is, I I did want to learn, I just couldn't understand it. And you know, I was showing a lot of these signs of like ADHD and learning disabilities because when you're in the fourth or third grade and you're failing almost every subject, there's an issue that's happening. And then um, you know, that went up to the eighth grade in the eighth grade.
SPEAKER_00I think I failed about it. I'm sorry, I just to interrupt, I only want to interrupt to tell our listeners that you're not like super old, like you're not 50. Like, right? How old are you? I'm turning 22. You're turning 22. So this is like not, I mean it's long ago, but not that long ago. No, and I only bring that up because when people, you know, talk about this type of stuff, and like let's say you're you know a bit older, like we weren't having the discussion around you know, learning disabilities, and again, it is relatively new, but yeah, what was it like at the time? Were people talking about it? Was it common? I'm trying to think, that would have been like 15 years ago or something, right?
SPEAKER_0215 years ago. Um, well, at that time, actually, we didn't know that I had a learning disability. Um, I mean, some teachers could guess that I was different, but um, they didn't really take it upon themselves to tell my parents. And at the same time, like, I don't might blame my parents for this, but you know, they're immigrants, so they don't speak English. Second, they're first, like, they're uneducated, so my mom dropped out of school at 16, my mom dropped my dad dropped out of school at age 11, so they were very young, so they don't know anything about learning disabilities or AHD, they didn't come from a culture that talked about it. So I don't expect them to know that when I was in the fourth grade, but you know, it was up to the teachers who saw me every single day to warn my parents about this issue and maybe think about like some options that we can come up with to help me, but they didn't. So I went through up to grade eight. I failed grade eight. There's like four sections of math, and I failed two of them. So I was forced to go to summer school if I wanted to go into grade nine math. Um, I as a kid always had a dream of like being a doctor, so I knew that if I want to be a doctor, I have to do good in math and science. Um, and then I went to grade nine math uh and I tried. It's not like I was one of those kids who didn't want to do anything and didn't listen. I genuinely tried to listen, it was just difficult. Um, and I was picked on a lot in grade nine by my teacher. Oh my god, it's like every year you have a hard the worst teacher. Yeah, and in grade nine, um she would pick on me if I was sitting and I was quiet. She would be like, Jenna, shut up. What? But I I wasn't talking, and all my friends would giggle because they're just like, What is she saying? Jenna's not even talking. And so my grade was horrible. It was horrible. My grade nine, I failed math with a 38%, and my teacher gave the mark with a smile, saying, like, this is for you. Maybe you shouldn't consider math. And I was like, you know what, Q, I'm gonna go into grade 10 academic math, and that one was even worse because that I was also doing really bad in.
SPEAKER_00And um And you're still undiagnosed, right?
SPEAKER_02This was still undiagnosed. Um, and she at the end of the year made me stand up in front of the whole class, told everyone I failed the course. What are you what is happening? And told everyone that, you know, in a way that Jenna was too stupid to process math.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, I wish you could see my face right now.
SPEAKER_02I know, I was so upset. Um, you know, she's like, you should think of applied. Um, and I remember, you know, guidance calling me down once a week, being like, you know, you're you're gonna start university in three years, you have to start thinking about options. Maybe math and science isn't for you, you should go into the arts. I mean, I like the arts, don't get me wrong, I love it, but I never saw it as a thing for me to do. But they kept forcing me. They were like, drop math and science, drop math and science. Um, and you know, you think that adults know everything at 15, so you believe them. Um but for grade 11 I didn't drop anything. I was like, no, I'm gonna stick with it. And grade 11, I dropped how how are you passing math? Were you going to summer school? Summer school, night school. I had to repeat the course two to three times each time, and even the last time that I passed it would be with a 51%, right? Not a high grade, like 51%.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um, and my grade 11, I dropped with an 11%.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was horrible, it was a horrible experience. But that teacher was actually the best teacher I could ever hope for. Um, you know, she genuinely cared. She would sit with me twice a day for an hour to try to teach me math, but like I wasn't getting it. And she specifically told me it wasn't because you weren't understanding grade 11 math, it's because your foundations have been so poor that you're not able to support it. And then she told me this analogy that like math is like a house, you know, you have the foundation, which is the most important part. She said grade 11 and 12 math is like the pretty little things you decorate the house in. If you don't have the foundation, everything's gonna crash.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So she told me maybe it's time to reconsider it and maybe in the future go back to math and see if you really like it. But as of now, she's like, your priorities are to get into university, so let's maybe stay away from it for a little bit, but when you feel more comfortable, come back.
SPEAKER_00Which is like a much nicer way of saying it.
SPEAKER_02It's a way, much nicer way of saying it. So I love her name was Miss Salinska, she's like the sweetest little Polish woman I've ever met. Um, so I really like the fact that she said that. And you know, I still visit her to this day. Like I go back and I'll tell her, you know, I'm teaching grade 10 math now.
SPEAKER_00That's funny. My math teacher, who's my best friend now, who changed my life, was also Polish.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. She's like very sweet. Um, but I hated it, and I um decided, okay, I'm gonna go into an arts program, and I did for my first year, I went to political science, and within the first six weeks, like panic attack after panic attack, I hated the program. And at this point, you're still undiagnosed. Undiagnosed. And why?
SPEAKER_00Why was that?
SPEAKER_02Because, well, technically, let me go a little bit back um to when I was 15, 16, um, the guidance counselors actually told me that they noticed a trend that I do actually fit the criteria of a kid with a learning disability and ADHD. But they told me that because I was gonna age out of the system in three years, it was not worth giving me the test. That test cost $2,000. If the school system was to provide it for me, it would be for free. But they don't want to provide it for me because I'm leaving the system in three years.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02So they actually have a cutoff age at around seven.
unknownSeven.
SPEAKER_02Seven.
SPEAKER_00What why?
SPEAKER_02There's so much more school left. I know. But because the test is so expensive, they don't want to give it to kids who are gonna age out soon.
SPEAKER_00And if you're But how is seven soon? What like this is insane.
SPEAKER_02I know. And to uh be like the waiting list of it is about two to three years. So if you are a six-year-old kid and you're waiting for this test, it's two to three years. Um, you can take the test outside of school if you want to, but you're paying close to two to three grand, and I didn't have that money, and my parents can't afford that. They're working, you know, our household is kind of low to medium income. Like, and we I have two other siblings.
SPEAKER_00I mean, and that's like that's really expensive for this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, if you can afford it, by all means do it. But sure, yeah. People like me, like I we couldn't afford that. Um, and I had bigger things to think about, like how am I gonna pay for university?
SPEAKER_01Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So my first year went undiagnosed again. Um, I dropped out of the program, I went to this little leadership thing, and that place really changed me and saw that you know, like I really want to be a doctor. Um, and I decided maybe I should go into psychology and start taking some maths, start taking some sciences and going back to it, which was really scary for me. Um, I decided to make a change to go to a new university to start fresh because it was just like after having panic panic attack, after panic attack, you just don't want to be there anymore. Yeah, so you so I left. Um and it was actually because of my therapist who looked back into my childhood, noticed that there was an irregular pattern and told me that I should go get tested specifically for ADHD, which I did um at 20. I'm 22 now. Um and Ryerson, because I was a student who came from um a family that needed like who had a low priority income, um, they said that because I'm on OSAP and because our uh income is so low that they're willing to give me a grant that I had to fill out a whole application for. So it's all thanks to Ryerson that I was able to actually get the testing that I needed. Yeah. And so when I actually did the test, um, it wasn't just ADHD that popped out, it was multiple other learning disabilities which kind of worked side by side, which made math very difficult. Can you tell us about like some of them? Yeah, so um ADHD, as you know, is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Um so there's a lot of the thing about ADHD looks different for people.
SPEAKER_00Like for me, I heard it's like I mean, from a lot of the research I've done and what I've heard is it presents differently in boys and girls.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so um the statistics are that boys are two times overdiagnosed than females. And if females don't quote me, you're about two to four times less diagnosed than females.
SPEAKER_00Well, we don't have to quote you or saying it on.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, no, but I've heard something like that too. Like it's so underdiagnosed.
SPEAKER_02For boys, the median age of getting diagnosed, the mean is about six to seven. Um, because they portray lots of hyperactivity, like and tend to get very violent fighting and stuff like that. They assume immediately that it's AD. Females actually don't get diagnosed till they're 19, on average, because we don't display a lot of um aggression, we tend to be extremely unfocused. And what's really sexist about it is that um teachers, when you go to interviews, um, will say, Oh, you know, your child is just lazy, they're not paying attention, they're more focused on boys, but I I wasn't focused on boys. Like, where are you getting this information from? Um, and you know, my parents didn't believe that either because when I was at home, I was as of like a 12, 11-year-old kid working six hours to just try to finish my homework.
SPEAKER_00Well, there's a lot of stuff too that's like really interesting about um teachers and sort of like not even teachers, like parents too, just society like praising boys for being like super hyper, right? Like, oh, it's kind of okay, like that means they're kind of smart and they're just all over the place because they're so creative. Whereas if a girl displays something similar, exactly, she's being lazy or distracting just because that's how the stereotype goes. Exactly. And also there's a lot to show that um for girls, ADHD presents in the same way as like depression and anxiety, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and we're very unfocused, so you know, we might be listening, but we're actually not listening. Yeah, I mean, we're glazing back and forth, we might be a little bit more calm. Um, for example, my hyperactivity tends to be in talking, so I talk a lot, um, and that's how I display it. I did display more hyperactivity than normal for females, so um tend to talk a lot, disrupt a lot, but I was because of the fact that I knew how to work the system at school and basically get my weight to graduate, no one really suspected it as a as an actual thing. Um, they assume you either have to be like perfect or you have to be completely out of control. Right, you know, there's no like um like being a functional alcoholic or something. Exactly. Like it's it's just it was very difficult. Um, but for me, as I said, that's how ADHD presents with learning disabilities. I have a condition called working memory disorder, which really played in for math. Um, and what that means is what working memory does is that, for example, if I'm studying for something and I do a test, the information is in my brain, I just can't regurgitate it. So I can't put it on paper without having an aid next to me. And an aid doesn't have to be formulas or literally written out word-by-word textbook definitions, it could be a picture of a bird, and that will ignite my memory to remember the things that I was studying about. It's very weird. But um, because I wasn't given that aid as a kid, um, when it came to tests, I was struggling because I couldn't regurgitate the information. So I wouldn't even complete 75% of the test because I wasn't able to. I knew the information, but I wasn't able to. And I remember this one time one of my teachers decided to just give me a verbal test and I got 100% on it.
SPEAKER_00Really? Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_02And it was actually a math test, interestingly enough. That's so funny. Um but they didn't really take it into consideration. They were just like, oh yeah, it's just a one-off thing. Um, and another thing is visual spatial awareness. So when teachers did a lot of charts or did um, for example, in grade three, when I was talking about those number blocks, I can't visually understand it. So when they bring out these intense, especially grade 11 biology, these intense charts, I'm not able to process it. So put that plus ADHD plus a working memory problem, and it's like a recipe of data. Yeah, yeah. But like I didn't even think that I had all that. I knew something was different.
SPEAKER_00Well, like how would you know, right? Exactly.
SPEAKER_02I knew something was different. Um, but I would have never guessed ADHD. Because if if you told me I had ADHD, I would have laughed because I'm like, oh no, I'm not hyperactive, I'm not like this, you know, because I have that stereotype of what boys are like in my head that I just never seemed it. But yeah, that's that's basically what those conditions are that I have.
SPEAKER_00So once you got diagnosed with all of that, how did that change things?
SPEAKER_02Um, it changed everything. I took about a semester off from school to really uh understand how to learn with it. Um Ryerson offers really, really amazing um support for students with disabilities. They have these learning support, academic support people who actually specialize in this and they actually teach you how to note take with your disability.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I have So that's the that's the whole thing, right? Is there strategy? It's like just like any sort of like therapy or like all those self-help bugs that are like get to know this and that about yourself. Like once you do, you can work with it. It's not like you're getting diagnosed. I think a lot of people have the misconception that like being diagnosed with a learning disability gives you an excuse to underperform, and that's not at all it.
SPEAKER_02No, and matter in fact, it was exactly the opposite, it gave me more of a drive to learn how to be the best that I can be. And one of the ladies at Ryerson taught me this really cool trick called mnemonics, which is what I was talking about with the picture of the bird. Um, mnemonics is either like, for example, in music, you have scales, and you know, every good boy deserves fudge, like that's a mnemonic. Um, she taught me how to do that, and um, with our cue sheets for people who have working memory disorders, we get one little sheet where we get to write information and it has to be in mnemonics. Um, that mnemonic sheet from the grades that I was receiving, which were like 50 to 60 percent on tests, we're going up to an 80%. So it changed my mark by 20-25%. Wow, which is a lot, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, okay, so we could like talk about this forever. I know. But so just I wanna so moving on to the next phase, how did you come to us? Like, I'm trying to even remember.
SPEAKER_02So I remember I saw an ad um on social media that said math anxiety workshop, and I was like, what the hell is that? And when I ran on it and I looked more at the math group, and I was like, people were giving like five out of five rating, and it wasn't like you know, like when you look at ratings, sometimes there's like two ratings and it's five out of five, and then people don't say anything, and you're like, that's sketchy, yeah, super sketchy.
SPEAKER_00It's like the owner and like the one person that works for it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. So I thought, oh my god, is that something like this? But there's like over 80 reviews with all five out of five, so that's not true.
SPEAKER_00I paid every single one of those people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I I like look through and everyone was like, Oh, you know, this place is amazing. So there was that workshop, and I decided to email you, and um I didn't really think about getting math lessons until like I started talking to you, and I was like, Oh, okay, maybe I should try it. Um, so I decided to do that, and I decided to come once or twice a week here, and you sent me a book, Lindsay. Um, I love Lindsay, oh my god. You know your best friend. Who's my best friend now? I know I love her so much. Um at that time I was still like that's I think the time that I was going to second year, so I was like 18, 19. Um and so I was like, okay, you know, I'm gonna do this, so I decided to like save up the money that I was having from work to like come here and pay um pay for tutoring, and honestly was the best decision I've ever made. Uh Lindsay really broke thing down, like broke things down for me. I mean, it was awkward at first because I was 18, 19 years old learning, you know, grade nine math, which is really weird. Like I didn't know what fractions were, and that's like very embarrassing for me to like think that I didn't know that for like at like 18, 19.
SPEAKER_00But so many people don't. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02But it's just embarrassing to think that you know you're you're at that age, you're in university, you don't know how to do basic math. Um, but Lindsay. Was understanding and you know she didn't judge me. I've been to other tutoring places before. You know how they give you that smirky eye? They just like look at you and you're just like, Why? Like you're trying to help me. Um but Lindsay was really understanding, and within two months we learned everything we need to learn from grade 9, 10, 11, and 12.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so everything. And I mean, if I can learn all that within two months, it's not because I was stupid, it was because I wasn't I wasn't um getting the right type of tools that I needed to learn, and so Lindsay did that for me, and I thought that was super amazing, and so I continued with her.
SPEAKER_00And then so so now you're in your psychology program, yeah. Exactly. And then I remember Lindsay being like, if we need an elementary tutor, I think this Jana girl would be awesome. Yeah. Because you have so much experience with kids and you're so understanding, and now you're tutoring grade 10 math with us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I started off with grade eight math, and I was I remember my first session with my first student. I still remember who she is. Um, and I remember leaving that session so worried because it was grade eight math. I was like, oh my god, I don't know what to do with these blocks. Um, and I was like, I'm gonna be the worst tutor ever, and then you know, I started doing it and really loved it.
SPEAKER_00So from failing grade 8 math to tutoring up to grade 10. Grade 10, exactly. So tell us like what what um like role would you say failure has had? I mean, you there have been so many times you failed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Did you ever want to like fully give up?
SPEAKER_02You know, there were times that I did want to give up, and I did. So it's not like I try, try, try. There were times that I did give up. You know, you're 15, 16 years old, and people are telling you the people that you trust are telling you you're stupid. What are you gonna do? You know, um, teachers are telling you you're stupid. Guidance counselors don't have any belief in you. You know, a lot of people didn't even think I was gonna go to university. You know, they like to be realistic, people would have thought that I would dropped out of college or like dropped out of high school. Um, when I was a kid, you know, when people did group assignments, um, I was always the last one to be picked from the city. I know no one wanted to be with the the stupid kid because like you're not gonna be doing any work.
SPEAKER_00So how have you maintained like such a positive attitude? Or like were there times where you didn't have just because I know you now and you're so positive and I mean you're s so kind not only with other students, but like it seems like you have a really optimistic outlook.
SPEAKER_02Um, I think that came later on once I've graduated. Um, what's really interesting and funny um enough in high school, like my last year I graduated with great marks, you know, I ended up class valedictorian, which is what people didn't expect of a girl who was failing almost every subject. Um I think it was afterwards when I started to get to know myself better. And you know, when I came here, like what was really great was that this wasn't just like a math session, it was very therapeutic. It was like getting over kind of that trauma that I had for 12 years of you know not liking school. Um I always knew that like I've always wanted to go into academia and higher level professions, but because of like what I've experienced in the school system, you know, I didn't want to do that. Um and I think like that strength that I get is from my parents, you know, they weren't fortunate enough to have an education, and you know, the only reason why they came here is so that we can have that education, you know, and I didn't want to give up on them and be like, oh, sucks a suck, I'm not going to college or university. Um so I guess like they're kind of like the the thing that really helped me be strong about it, but you know, there are times that I did give up, like in 16, like you know, I developed depression because of it and I was very like upset. Um but you know, looking at what other people have done, you know, who've failed, like Einstein has failed multiple times, like more times than you can even imagine.
SPEAKER_00Um well, and I think it's so cool that you so now not only are you teaching math, yeah, which is so cool because it does remind me of my own story as well, of like, you know, through that failure, learning not only more about yourself, but what about how to prevent that from happening to other people. Exactly. But you are also working with Jack.org and doing a lot around learning disabilities and mental health as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so what Jack.org was so amazing is that they give a platform for youth to be able to talk about that story, and I do share that story. And I'm so grateful that I've been able to share it to over 20 to 25,000 kids across Canada. Wow, that's crazy, specifically in Ontario, yeah. Um, and I'm really grateful for that, and I'm really grateful that I'm able to share that story with the kids here at the math group because you know, um, the students that I work with do have learning disabilities in ADHD who have in the seventh grade given up already on themselves because of the condition that they have. And what's even worse, specifically for boys, is because they have that hyperactivities, teachers actually give up on them quicker. Um, and I've had a grade five kid who came in with his, you know, with his parents, um, who cried and said, you know, Jenna, they're bullying me. My teachers are bullying me. And like for me, that was really emotional because I was bullied ten years ago before that kid, you know.
SPEAKER_00So So what what can parents like do? Like, you know, what what are things they can do in order to help identify learning disabilities?
SPEAKER_02So that's a very it's it's very difficult because it can look different. Right. Um like asking teach like you were saying, yeah, like if you notice patterns that in especially in the third or fourth grade and your child is doing really poorly, I mean, not in just one subject, in multiple subjects, I mean the third grade children should not be failing. You know, math. That's not normal, considered normal. Um, if you notice that, you know, the grades are slipping, and it's not just because you know they decided that they don't want to do any work, it's they're trying, but they can't maintain that average. If you notice that, you know, their behavior changes in school, you know, those are signs that are really important to be careful of and to be aware of that, you know, is this because your child is just doesn't want to do the work or is there something more? Because for me, they were always like, Oh, she's just so lazy. But my parents were like, What are you talking about? She's at home for six hours a day sitting and trying to do the work. So, how is a child who's doing six hours of work a day at age nine um failing? That shouldn't be the case.
SPEAKER_00Right. So, yeah, okay, I think that's really helpful because as you said, like it's hard to hard to spot, but looking into it, talking to teachers, talking to guidance counselors, I mean, at this point, there's there's still such a lack of familiarity, but there's so much more familiarity, there's so many more resources, so I think that's really helpful. Um, and I guess you know, like, yeah, thank you so much for sharing that because it's it's such a personal story, but it's so cool, I think, to like see not only that you overcame it, but now you're kind of giving back um to make sure that kind of stuff doesn't happen to other kids. So, my last question before I get to the final two questions is how how do you think all of this informs your teaching? Like when you're tutoring, what are things you try to do?
SPEAKER_02So I try to change up my lesson plan accordingly to the child. So if my child is more hyperactive, I'm not gonna sit at a desk with them for an hour straight and do math. That's not okay because they're gonna fidget. Yeah. So um, what I would do is um I would get up, we would walk around, or maybe we do math on the board. Um, what I've noticed is especially kids who tend to be more like tend to be who tend to be very energized, like to go and write on the board more because they're getting up and they're moving. Um, I always make sure that the students are getting breaks, you know, especially if you have a student with ADHD, do not go 16 minutes straight. Um, break down that time. Um if they do good work for 15 minutes and you notice that their mind is slipping a little bit, and the way you would notice that is if they start asking you random questions, you know, you're doing math and they're like, Oh Jenna, did you know that cars can do this and this and this? You know, you start to notice that their mind is slipping away from math. So maybe you would take, you would tell them, okay, you know, finish this question, and if you finish it, we can talk about cars for two minutes. Give them that two-minute break to be able to talk about it, and then go back into math.
SPEAKER_00How important do you think it is for teachers to be trained? Like, should teachers have an understanding of all these, you know, kind of every learning disability and what to look for?
SPEAKER_02Definitely. I mean, not to the T of knowing how a disability you can't, you're not able to do that, but you know, being aware of the signs because specifically children like me who don't have educated parents, who are immigrants, who don't speak English, we don't have as many resources as other kids who are privileged enough to have parents who speak English, or to even have parents who graduated high school.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I'll say even that aside, I've spoken to a lot of parents who, you know, have you know, are are born here, are well versed in English, um, but still just aren't informed about this, right? Like it's like, you know, a lot of people have no understanding of what it is. Of what it is. I remember I gave a talk at a school, um, and there was, you know, in a very good neighborhood with like kids that we would tutor, and the dad was like, I keep hearing about anxiety, and like I know I'm supposed to just like get on board and understand it's a thing, but he was like, I don't even, I don't get this. Like what, you know, like he just like had never really heard of it and didn't understand what it was and would have no clue how to spot it because he doesn't really believe it's a thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's a lot of that where parents don't believe it's a thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So even if let's say a teacher does bring it up, a parent would be like, That's not real. Yeah, you know, that's not a thing, but reality is it is it is an actual thing.
SPEAKER_00Right. And since we are, you know, since this is a podcast about math therapy, like it's the amount of trauma that can cause, like thinking about how you said the part of what we did here was get rid of your math trauma. That idea of like not being diagnosed and then feeling like there's something inherently wrong with you that you don't know what it is, like, and then this leading to a lifetime of all of this happening to you would be really emotionally scarring. So it is quite important to figure out what's going on.
SPEAKER_02Definitely. Um, and even therapists have mentioned and psychologists have mentioned that um the development of the anxiety that I had was due to the fact that I was not diagnosed as a child, and going through all that trauma actually um heightened my anxiety in in um math specifically and other subjects, but math specifically, and you know, that's you know, that's a really bad thing, you know.
SPEAKER_00As a person who wanted to go into STEM, um I wasn't able to, you know, and I kind of Yeah, like it had they kind of diagnosed it, it would have prevented like the development of further sort of trauma. Hmm. Okay. Alright, well, I'm gonna ask, I mean, I would literally could talk about you. That would be that in your average, it's so interesting. But we're running out of time, so I'm gonna ask you the final two questions I ask everyone. So the first question is if there was one thing you could change about the way math is taught, what would it be?
SPEAKER_02So, um, what I would actually do is what's really important is not the subject itself, but incorporating kind of that patient and kindness into lessons. Um, when we look at teaching styles, especially with math, it's very rigid. It's very like two plus two is four, repeat it again. Um, and for some students, you know, that doesn't work, specifically with like ADHD kids. You can't you can't work with them like that. Um and a lot of them it's a confidence thing. You know, for me, especially when I was in um uh grade 10 math, you know, and I didn't know fractions. Like I was too embarrassed to ask her to be like, Can you repeat this concept to me because I don't understand it? Which then furthered me even more. So it's you know, really, really um being more compassionate towards your students, especially students that you see are struggling. You know, it doesn't mean they're bad kids or bad people, they just are different, it might need different types of support than others. So I think that's the one thing it would really change specifically about math education.
SPEAKER_00I love it. That's a great answer. Okay, and the next question is what would you say to someone who doesn't think that they're a math person?
SPEAKER_02Ooh, um, as I said in the beginning, yeah. Um there is no such thing as a math person, and I'm you know, for that person, I would say that I'm really sorry that people have made you believe that a math person exists and you have to be that way. Um, and I'm sorry that you know intelligence is incorporated one way, either you get it or you don't, and if you don't get it, you're stupid, which is not the truth. Um, and I'm really sorry for students. I feel really bad because you know, like it's a stigmatizing culture, and you know, they have to go through it for 12 years, and it gets worse and worse. It's not getting better.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's getting worse. Well, even like most adults I know just say they're not math people, right? They have that same idea.
SPEAKER_02It's not even just being a math person, it's just like uh the competition is getting worse and worse every year for university. The average point, grade average of getting in is getting higher and higher. And when students are not reaching a 90%, they think that they're not good at that subject, which is not the truth, which is really, really crazy. Um, and you know, for me, one really, really important thing is, you know, like as I said, like I love Einstein, and he had this one amazing quote, and he even had it tattooed on my body, which I that's why it's so important to me is that failure is success and progress, and that if you fail once, it doesn't mean you're gonna fail forever. It's a stepping stone, you know. You may fail once and you might learn from that and do it again, and you might fail again, but you learn something else, and incorporating that. I mean, with me and and teaching, you know, I didn't wasn't the best right away. You know, I learned some things and I learned some tools and I incorporated that. So I think like failures help us, and you know, anyone's able to accomplish any goal that they want to do. If you want to be a doctor, go for it. If you don't like math and you want to be a musician, go for it. Like, that's okay too if you don't want to do math, but don't think you can't do it just because you're not succeeding um at the great expectation of a system that is absolute shit, to be honest.
SPEAKER_00Mic drop. You can't drop this mic, actually. It's stable and you're not holding it.
SPEAKER_02Um no, like this the system wasn't made for people who think outside of the box, it was made for Okay, that could be like literally a whole other episode of the industrial thing. Yeah, yeah. But you know, don't be afraid uh to do what you want to do. You know, sometimes it's all about the right tools. So, you know, if you notice that you're failing, you know, what could we do to help you? And you know, I think that one really important thing is that there is no math person, but there is a you. So if being, you know, being you is the best that you can ever be, so don't be a math person, be yourself, you know, and just believe in yourself and do it. I know but I think that's the most important thing is that you know, believe in you, don't believe in math people.
SPEAKER_00Bam. You should get that tattooed. Okay, now we I can't I don't know why I keep saying we and us. I always like to give a prescription to my guests. So I think I mean there's been so much here you've touched on, and there's so much you're already doing, and you're working through your math traumas, and I feel like part of what's actually helped you not overcome but like manage your trauma and get to a great place is helping others, like this being in service to others. So I was thinking maybe we could do something with you going back to your like high school.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, totally. Like, um, I actually funny enough, I was thinking about that. Um, you know, you know, that's where, especially at high school is where all of the problems specifically with math started. So if I can even offer once a week to students um, you know, math tutoring, specifically because that area in which my school is is a high priority school. So a lot of the students can't afford tutoring services.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing.
SPEAKER_02So if I can even just offer one to two hours a week and help a student who might be struggling a lot, you know, that would be awesome and really help.
SPEAKER_00That's incredible. Okay, that is the best prescription, and we'll definitely follow up with you and see how that goes. And I think that's incredible. And I think that also is something to remember. Like, not I mean, it has nothing to even do with math, but it kind of does. But that idea of getting over, um, not getting over, but like, you know, helping, yeah, healing your trauma by healing the trauma of others, and that's kind of what a you know, that's why we're gonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_02If I can stop it for someone else, that makes me feel better.
SPEAKER_00Uh, this has been such an amazing, amazing interview. Thank you so much, Jenna. Thank you. And it was great having you, and I'll um see you tomorrow. Yeah, tomorrow.
SPEAKER_01Okay, good.
SPEAKER_00Ugh, Jenna, such an inspiration. Seriously, guys, there was so much amazing stuff in this app, but if you take one thing away, it's that failure is something that can inform you more than success ever will. I know it's cliche and like every single person's talking about failure, but I truly encourage you guys to do something with your failure starting right now. The next time you fail, and I mean fail at anything, like losing your keys, losing your job, losing your wife, your husband, whatever, I want you to make a list of what lessons you've learned. Like one thing at least that for sure that failure has taught you. Because guys, learning means you're living, and that is the gift that failure just keeps on giving us, time after time. Jenna did go back to her high school, ask for her prescription, and you can check out the results on our website where we put all of our show notes.themathguru.ca slash math therapy. Remember to follow us on all social media at the Math Guru for more of everything. That's where we post extra episode-related content every single week. And of course, a reminder that math therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vicaria, produced by Sabina Wax, and edited by David Koachberg. Oh, and our theme music, That's Waves by Goodnight Sunrise, which also happens to be my band. As usual, if you know someone who needs math therapy or needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please share this podcast and please consider writing a review on iTunes. Those two things actually make such a big difference. I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math, and I need your help because I know you want it changed too. So spread the word. That's all for this week. Stay tuned for our next episode. Out next Thursday. Boi bye. Okay.