Hi, I'm Vanessa Vicaria, aka the Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. And don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Hi guys, welcome to this week's episode of Math Therapy. Today we're talking to Kimberly McLeod, a registered social worker and therapist. She was actually my therapist a few years ago, so I can vouch for how awesome she is. She mainly focuses on helping women of all ages process their concerns in a way that allows them to move forward in a healthier, happier way, leaving them feeling empowered and good about themselves on a core level, which is so, so important. Today we talk about the link between depression and feeling stupid in math class, the difficulty of growing up in a household where like every single male figure seems to be a math genius, and the juiciest part, we uncover Kimberly's own math trauma and try to help her overcome it. So juicy. Okay, let's do this. Welcome to math therapy. Okay, so the coolest part about this episode, I think, is for our listeners to know that Kimberly was actually my therapist back in the day. And by that I mean a few years ago. Um, I don't know, I feel like I always have, you know, how you like want to kind of teach your teachers. I've always wanted to like therapise my therapist.
SPEAKER_02This is your chance.
SPEAKER_00Alright, so this is my chance. Okay, so why don't we just start by, because of all the time I've spent with you, I have no idea how you feel about math. So let's just start with if I came up to you, I am coming up to you right now, yes, and I said, Hey, do you like math? What would you say?
SPEAKER_02I would say I have an appreciation for math. Uh I think it is a beautiful language, and I would say I don't have any sort of deep understanding of it.
SPEAKER_00Okay, wow, that's a very reasoned response. And are you good at math?
SPEAKER_02I am good at very basic stuff. Um, I, for example, when I took calculus and so on, I never really truly understood what it was about. I could apply formulae and so on, because I'm reasonably smart, but I never had a deeper understanding.
SPEAKER_00Okay, alright, so that's a good like framework to start with. You know, you as an adult now that's how you view math is kind of a cool place to start. So why don't we start with like go back into your into the past and kind of tell me how your experience with math was growing up?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so background is that my grandfather, my uncle, and my father were all PhDs in science.
SPEAKER_00Oh wow.
SPEAKER_02So they all and my uncle and my dad professors, and uh my grandfather did research all his life. So they all have a profound understanding of math. So I was raised in that sort of family culture. As I went along, I did fine with basic arithmetic and so on. And then once I hit grade seven, it started to get a little more difficult. And then it got very difficult when I lived in England when I was in grade eight, and we had a sabbatical year there because my dad was doing international research at that time. So I went to a private school and I was put in the top level, it's all graded, so there were about eight different levels students could be placed in, and I was placed in the top level for all of my courses except math. Math I was put in the very bottom. And what was that based on? That was based on the fact that the Canadian curriculum was far behind the British one. But it was a really interesting experience because I was in the very top with all the sort of elite students, very good students, for most of my classes, then this one class in with, in quotes, the people who were considered dumb, and it really influenced how I saw myself and how these kids were viewed in relation to the smarter kids. So it was quite an experience.
SPEAKER_00So, like, uh so just being in that, like let's say dumb class, were you like is it something that you were like acutely aware of? Did people say things to you? Did your parents say anything? Like, what was kind of how did it affect you, do you think?
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, my parents said nothing about it because I was just placed there because of where the Canadian system was versus the British. But yes, when I was in there, I mean, think about kids in grade seven, eight. It's sort of, and I know as a therapist can be the most difficult time in people's lives often. Um, and so I really, really struggled with kids giving me a hard time about being in that, and these kids really were considered dumb, and so the other kids I was hanging out with who were sort of the smarter ones would kind of tease me about it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And what happened after after that year? Because then you ended up coming back here, right?
SPEAKER_02So we came back here, and my parents um we lived in North York, but my parents wanted me in a more academically focused school, so I went to North Toronto.
SPEAKER_01So did I.
SPEAKER_02And so in grade nine, I was now ahead in math because of what I'd learned in England, despite the fact I was in the lowest level. Okay. So grade nine was pretty easy for me. Grade 10 was pretty easy, grade 11 was fine. I was a sort of slightly above average student, and then when I hit, I'm thinking so grade 13 was where it got really difficult because I was in calculus and functions, and I never really, really understood it. So I worked hard, my dad helped me, but um I so I think I had a 75 in those classes, and then by the time the university, those that was university marks, by the time I actually my the final marks went in, they both dropped to like a 65.
SPEAKER_00And was that like I mean, you were you say you were working hard. So let's back up a bit to like so you come back from England where you were in this like dumb math class, and all of a sudden you're at the same level as everyone else. Did you feel any sort of shift in your confidence, or were you kind of like, whatever, this is not even no?
SPEAKER_02I did. I did feel a shift in my confidence. I felt a lot better about myself. I was also ahead in French and I think history as well. So I did, I felt smart. I felt smart. So why do you think when things got to grade 13 that they got hard for you? Because I think it became sort of more theoretical and just more complex concepts, and I just I never got a full grasp on it because I was taking it was a not a semester school, I was taking eight courses at once and just trying to work it all in together. I was much more interested in English, French, all those sorts of things. So I didn't put as much effort in, and it wasn't fun for me.
SPEAKER_00So I mean it's interesting because like I just talking to you about this now, like this seems like you seem very measured about it, right? Like it just seems like a very logical approach, which is totally fine. Like it wasn't really that fun, you didn't really work that hard, cool, whatever, not a big deal. You don't really seem to have an emotional response to math. Um, but when we had talked before, um, you had mentioned that math was seen a certain way, like in your family. Like, can you say a bit about that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so in my family, science and math were considered to be the more important, more intellectually challenging um programs to directions to go in. My brother actually is an engineer, so he was very much inclined that way. So there was just my father talked a lot about how arts professors didn't work as hard as science professors, so there was just a certain almost stigma attached to the arts. And I did actually where I did get emotional about math was in grade seven. I forgot to mention this. I was learning algebra, my dad was trying to teach me, and I could not for the life of me figure out figure it out. And so my dad and I are quite similar, and we really bought heads around that. So it wasn't just the math that was difficult, it it spilled over into the relationship I had with my dad, and I can now see as an adult how frustrating it was for him that he just he's a teacher by training and he couldn't teach his own daughter how to do it. I just literally could not wrap my head around it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And did you ever feel like that was disappointing on like a greater level? Like, were you ever like, oh my god, my parents think that math is and science are the most important things, and like there I can't do it or I can't understand it?
SPEAKER_02Yes, I I really did feel that way with my father and his side of the family. It was never intentional on his part, um, but I did really feel that, and also because my brother excelled in those courses and really didn't, to my way of thinking, have to work very hard at it. From my mom's point of view, I got absolutely no pressure that way. So she kind of balanced things out for me, I would say.
SPEAKER_00So, do you think I mean eventually you ended up going into into psychology, right? Like I didn't actually.
SPEAKER_02My undergraduate degree was at York University, and I didn't know what I wanted to do out of grade 13, and guidance departments did not work the way they do now, so I didn't know what to do. So I went into a business area and I did a degree in public policy. So I actually had to take some math in my undergraduate degree. Um, and I actually the statistics I really liked because it was applicable. I could understand it, it made sense to me. So I did that degree, but then soon realized I'm much more of a people person. I will finish this degree because that's what we do in my family. But then I I went on and applied to do a master's of social work. And in the meantime, in my undergrad years, I did a lot of volunteer work and so on, so really started to put my energy into that area.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah. And did you ever feel like, you know, all along this kind of like journey with math, like, did you ever feel like it was something you couldn't do, or were you sort of like, well, I'm not working that hard at it, and that's kind of my choice?
SPEAKER_02I think it was one of those classic cases where I didn't put that much work into it because I had I put a lot of work into it, I would have realized that I was kind of dumb. I would have thought I was dumb. So by not applying myself completely, I never had to really test that.
SPEAKER_00Right. Okay, so yeah, that's like a bit that's a big one. So now how do you feel now looking back on that?
SPEAKER_02Like, do you feel that's true or do you feel like I do I I mean, I do feel, I do feel that I I am not really wired that way, which you might disagree with, but I really don't feel like you should see my face right now. I don't feel like I would have been very good at it. And why? Because my mind, I don't you see, I'm I'm probably saying all the wrong things. No, there's no wrong. My mind does not, I'm very logical in some ways, like around people and very intuitive and so on, but I don't feel that I'm not a really good problem solver in certain ways, if that makes any sense.
SPEAKER_00Well, so like it makes sense what you're saying, but what and when I'm listening to the actual facts, it sounds like you did great in math and then you decided you didn't really like it and you stopped working at it because you were scared if you worked at it, you'd be bad at it, and then you didn't get great marks. Yeah. But nothing along the line here is you saying, I tried really hard and I couldn't do it.
SPEAKER_02No, I I think that the the single biggest thing that happened to me was back in grade seven, probably. But my dad and I got into it about not, and I really couldn't understand it, and then the experience in grade eight, but then yeah, things did pick up. And I suppose had I had a service like yours, and I really mean this, where I was really um, you know, talked to and given confidence and boosted, I probably actually could have done well because I have perfectly high intelligence. Right? I probably could have, yeah. Okay, because that's like that's kind of that's more reasonable.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, yeah. And I'm really glad you're saying that because that is, I think a lot of adults carry with them, let's say, a moment like that. Like I find, like honestly, often, like, you know, the whole math therapy came about because often when I speak to adults, they can remember acutely this one time. Yeah. But it's so funny because that one time was so long ago and you've rebounded from that time and then did well. Like, you obviously eventually understood algebra, or you wouldn't like. So, like, it's like, but it's so funny that you're still clinging to this one time that you didn't want to like repeat. But if you really think about it, like it was just a a one-time thing. It was the failure that happened that you overcame. Right. So I want to make sure, as your math therapist, I want to make sure that you actually know that that's that it's not true that had you tried hard, you probably wouldn't do well. So, like, and I really wonder like, are there other things in your life that were hard at first that you're now good at that you chose to keep trying?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, lots of things. Like what? Lots of artistic things. Like I've taken on watercolor painting to a degree. And like, did you suck at it? I really sucked at it at first because I had this idea, you know how a lot of people say I can't draw? Yes, I'm not artistic. I've always been artistic, right? And I know that because I have a good color sense, and that was really encouraged in me. Um, but I I took an online watercolor course and I took a course elsewhere, and I'm not fantastic, but I do have a certain level of confidence, and it was something I really pushed myself to do.
SPEAKER_00So that's so interesting because why would you push yourself to do that? Aside from the fact that maybe you enjoyed it and was fun. It's because I I did interview someone else a while ago uh when I was on Unladylike, and we were talking about how she really, you know, she decided she wanted to learn piano, and she was right away told that she had a real real innate skill for music, right? And that kind of made her want to do it even more. So I wonder if that was part of you being like, well, I'm not good at this one thing, but I know that I'm artistic, so I'm gonna keep trying.
SPEAKER_02Well, and it fits into the whole into my world of of therapy where with cognitive behavior therapy, right? So how you think determines how you feel and how you behave. So because I was giving myself these messages, I didn't do as well as I could have done. If I had had someone encouraging me and helping me to think differently, then I probably could have done just fine. And I did fine, I just didn't excel.
SPEAKER_00So that's actually interesting. Like, I I mean I hadn't even thought to talk about this, but like, how do you deal with clients about stuff like this? Like stuff like obstacles that they really think they can't overcome or areas in life that they feel really stupid. Like, has math ever come up in therapy?
SPEAKER_02Um, science and math have come out absolutely. Like, in what way? They have. Uh when I start exploring around how a young person feels about themselves, they will, you know, we obviously touch on academics, and quite a number of them say they have difficulty in science and math, and just, you know, it's not their thing, they're not good at it. And so we do. I do talk to them about, you know, where does that idea come from? It's sort of like what we're talking about right now, right? And and what I ask them to do is to notice when them they're talking to themselves that way, right? Just to notice when they're putting themselves down and to sort of question it and try and reframe it. And have you like changed anyone's minds? I've certainly seen kids where their marks have gone up, absolutely, right? But it tends to, you know, it's a thread that runs through their whole life, so it's all about developing confidence in yourself in all sorts of different ways, one of them being in academics.
SPEAKER_00Well, so like just kind of furthering this whole thought process, like who we are really, and the way we kind of enter the world is all based on our views of ourselves, right? And our self-worth and the way we talk to ourselves. And I find that something like this seems kind of trivial, like, okay, who cares about math, right? Like, why are we focusing on this one thing? But you're kind of highlighting that point that let's say you're telling yourself you're stupid in any way, right? Or you've been capable of something in any way. Like, math, I always say math is just like a medium to really be building confidence, right? In this idea that you can do anything. And so many kids and adults, right, like go through the world telling themselves that they are not good at this one thing, right? So I think there is really a lot of power in whether it's math or it's like relationships or whatever it is that you're trying to pep talk someone on, or being like, you know, talk stop talking to yourself negatively about this thing, that that could be the the kind of key that turns the way that you approach your life and the possibilities in it. Right. So I think that's really really interesting that you do find yourself like in, I'm sure people aren't coming to you for therapy about math, but like that.
SPEAKER_02But they will come to me for therapy around um academic performance or around you know anxiety, right? Related to writing tests and not performing the way they could. And very often those classes are, now that I think about it, science and math. So why do you think that is? I it's you know, it's a really interesting question. I think I work with a disproportionate number of young women, and I think culturally we are taught, you know, years ago, um, that girls girls aren't as good at those sorts of things. I know that's one of a big thing for you, and it's wrong, but it is just very much out there.
SPEAKER_00No, and and so do you but you never felt that way, or did you feel that way? Because you're saying your brother this is another thing.
SPEAKER_02I did feel that way because it was my grandfather, my father, my uncle, and my brother. So it's all it's all men in my family. And I don't have a sister, and my mom is a librarian, and my grandmother was at home raising her children, and originally she was a kindergarten teacher, I think, but you know, so well.
SPEAKER_00Let's talk about your daughters. Actually, that's kind of a perfect segue. So tell like how does this kind of translate with them?
SPEAKER_02Well, what's interesting, my younger daughter is a very good student academically, always has been, and she excelled at math. She did very, very well, she did gifted math through high school. My older daughter had a difficult relationship with math, she had a hard time understanding it when she was small. And her father coached her and worked with her very patiently, and so she got by, but not really, really well. Um she needed a math credit in order to get into the university program she went into. So she we got her a tutor and all sorts of things. Anyway, she did fine, not really well. But what's interesting is when she got into university, she did a bunch of science classes and had to use math and and did fine, you know, did really quite well. But to this day, she and my father will have a conversation about how she says, I'm not very good at math, and he'll say, What makes you say that? So it carries on.
SPEAKER_00How long did you say that? What does she say?
SPEAKER_02Because she had a hard time, it she holds on to when she was younger, right? When she was um sort of up until grade nine, it just didn't click for her.
SPEAKER_00So and but now she's fine and she's doing math and whatever.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, she's doing as much as she needs to do, and she has to do, she will be a dietitian, so she's done an internship here, and she had to do the calculations for feeding tubes, people in ICU, that sort of thing. So she has to use it's a practical math, but you know, you you can't mess it up.
SPEAKER_00So, do you feel like you talked to your daughters about your relationship with math? Like, did that come up?
SPEAKER_02Do you know what? Not a whole lot. It it really didn't, and and in retrospect, I could have said more to them. Their dad took it on and dealt with it very well with them. So I just sort of stayed on the sidelines and helped them with more the artsy kinds of things. Hmm, interesting. I I do wish that I did have a better understanding of it because I my brother always says it's the most beautiful language, and like what does that mean to have a better one? Because I know, well, it it means being able to do theoretical mathematics because my grandfather in his retirement took on a whole bunch of profound math problems and worked away at them and wrote papers about them. And he got so much joy from that process that I developed a real appreciation for it and wished that I could get that kind of pleasure because I feel like I've missed out on something. That's the other piece here is I think that we have areas that we naturally gravitate towards. So you have one life to live and you can't do everything. Right. So I would rather put my energy into artistic things in the work I do.
SPEAKER_00So that's the thing, right? Like, I mean, it because it kind of sounds like really, if you think about it, and not to put words in your mouth, but you're like, I guess if I tried really hard, I mean, why couldn't I have done well? Yeah, right. I'm super smart. And I mean, I think that about a ton of things. Like, I'm like, I mean, there's only so much time there is on the planet, but like you sure there are tons of things that seem really, really cool to do that, like maybe if I really wanted to be like a pro basketball player, like I could train really hard. Yeah, but I mean that would take a lot of time, and like I don't really want to, you know, like that kind of vibe. So when you're saying like I really wish I I knew more about math, like I think one thing to think about is like, how much do you really wish that? Yeah, like I mean, maybe you do, but like how much do you because if you really, really wish that, if you were like, this is the thing that's lacking in my life, like you could just do it.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and if if it was, I would. You know, it was something I can relate to more easily is I took a lot of piano when I was young and did conservatory exams and so on. And I kind of think, okay, I'd like to find some time to devote to that. I but I don't. I work a lot, I have a lot of friends, I've got my family, you know, I've got my artistic interests, and I do though I love to read, I do all kinds of things. Like you're really busy. Yeah, I am, and I don't have time to slot piano in there right now. Right. Right? So I would far rather do that than math. Right. Just because it's my interest, right? Yeah. But yes, I agree with you. If I really wanted to do math and I had a really strong interest, I could pursue it.
SPEAKER_00Okay, all right. So we're gonna go to the two questions that I ask everyone on this podcast, and then I'm gonna give you your prescription as a therapist. You've prescribed me a lot of things and now it's my turn. Okay, so my first question is what would you say to someone? Well, you probably actually have to do this all the time. Probably. Okay, what would you say to someone who thinks and is convinced that they're not a math person?
SPEAKER_02Well, what I would do first is I would explore where that idea comes from, right? I would want to know the. Oh no, this is such a therapist's answer. I would want to understand where that messaging came from and so on, and really, really slow it down and pull that apart and understand. And then I would have a whole lot of questions about why are you making this assumption? Why are you making that assumption? Why do you see yourself that way? And and I would just do a lot of historical work, I think.
SPEAKER_00Is this part of CBT? Yeah. Is it? Yeah. Can you tell? Actually, this is just interesting. So, like, so this would like rewire their brain into thinking something different. Like, what's the yes?
SPEAKER_02Because what you would do is you it's actually very mathematical. You would have them, you know, you would write down how they feel about it, and then they would look at it, you know, what supports that thought, what doesn't support that thought, and how do I find a balanced way to look at that that's realistic?
SPEAKER_00So that is what I do with my students. But because of you, I always make them when they're like, I'm gonna fail this test. I'm like, I need you to make a list of things that support that and a list of things that don't. That's exactly what it's well. You taught me that. So there you go. Okay, question number two if you could change one thing about the way you had been taught math, what would that be?
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's easy. I would um make it much more practical right from the very start or applicable. I would relate it to playgrounds as a little kid or to, I don't know, doing a social work degree, or I'm not sure, but but I would I would relate it to something practical because as soon as I got into statistics, some of the concepts were actually quite difficult, but it it grabbed me because it applied to the real world.
SPEAKER_00Okay, that's great. Yeah. So final part of math therapy is that I'm gonna prescribe you something. Good. So I think I know what it's gonna be. So you mentioned that you wish you knew more about math, but you don't have a ton of time to like all of a sudden go do a math degree and like learn all this crazy theory. But one of the things it sounds like you struggle with is you're you're not a hundred percent certain that you could like master the theoretical side of math. Like, you know, you didn't really, really work at it, but you kind of didn't because you were scared you wouldn't be able to do it, but you kind of want to see the beauty in math that like all these quote-unquote math people see. So I'm gonna assign you one concept. I haven't decided what it's gonna be yet, but I'm gonna decide assign you one concept that you are going to learn the theory behind, like something really cool, like maybe like how Pythagorean theorem like even works and why it was invented. Like it won't take more than like half an hour. Okay, and you're gonna learn it. Okay, and then we'll follow up with you. Okay, great. Okay, amazing. I love it. Well, thank you so much for being a part of the podcast. Thanks for having me. And thanks for the years of therapy. Any time. Well, you heard it here first, guys. Even therapists carry their math traumas into adulthood. So if you're like a grown-up that's listening to this right now, being like, oh my god, this totally sounds like me, you are not alone, and you can totally do something about it like right this second. And if you want to get therapy from the amazing Kimberly herself, she works at Lee Side Therapy Center and we'll provide the link in our show notes, which you can find at themathguru.ca slash math therapy. That's also where we'll be posting her prescription, the one in which she shares her discovery of what the fuck the Pythagorean theorem is even about. Remember to follow us on all social media at the Math Guru for more math therapy. That's where we're posting extra episode-related content every single week. And of course, a reminder that math therapy is hosted by moi, Vanessa Vicaria, produced by Sabina Wex, and edited by David Koachberg. And of course, our theme song is Waves by Goodnight Sunrise, which we all know by this point is my own band. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please share this podcast and write a quick review on iTunes. Those two things actually make such a big difference. I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math, and I seriously need your help. So spread the word. That's all for this week. Stay tuned for our next episode out next Thursday! Okay, cool. Sorry, that was really extra.