SPEAKER_04 0:00

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vicaria, aka the Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. And don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Hi! Okay. So today on the podcast, we have Liz Idolu, who is legit one of the kindest, sweetest, most caring, and most math-traumatized people I've ever met. Liz is our admin manager here at The Math Guru, and it's funny because she talks to parents and kids every damn day about, you guessed it, math. Yet until recently, she has always been terrified of it. Liz comes from a world of performing arts and wellness and sees her role here at The Math Guru as an amazing opportunity to connect with different students from all walks of life. How fucking sweet is that? She really believes that her experience as a wellness instructor, which focuses on the yoga practice and philosophies, has allowed her to fluidly absorb our philosophy that there is no such thing as a math or science person. She has such a positive attitude, and you're going to hear some serious math trauma work today, guys. Because honestly, I've seen a lot of things, but I had never seen someone who legit blocked out years of high school math until I met Liz. All right, let's dig into it. Today on math therapy, we have Liz. And Liz is actually the general manager here at the Math Guru. And she's also a great yoga teacher, a spin instructor. What else do you do? Like everything. A motivational speaker for all of us here.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

I try to be a part of the support team.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

A support, definite support staff. And so, okay, so the reason we have Liz on the podcast is because, um, how long have you worked here now? Like over two. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:00

And that's two years in which you have been denying that you ever took grade 11 math.

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Oh, it was grade 10.

SPEAKER_04 2:07

Grade 10.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Is that what you're talking about? Grade 11, I for sure for sure didn't take.

SPEAKER_04 2:12

But great grade 10 was. Okay, so right. Liz has been denying that she ever took grade 10 math. And we here, um, since we know the curriculum very well, we know that you have to take grade 10 math in order to graduate. So we have been a little curious about the fact that Liz insists she never took it. And then what happened? You called your sister. How do we confirm that?

SPEAKER_02 2:32

I had to call a friend. I was so certain because I went to an art school that that must have been the reason why I didn't have to take grade 10 math, because clearly I would have remembered such a subject. But I had to talk to a friend where we're in the same grade and we had the same almost all the same classes together, and we both had this similar relationship to math. So it was like, hey, did you take grade 10 math by any chance? Maybe she took it in summer school. Right. And she confirmed, indeed, we had to, and there was no way getting around it. Apparently, we were in class together.

SPEAKER_04 3:04

Right, right, right. Okay, so that is how deep um Liz's math trauma stretches, shall we say? So yeah, this is why we have her on math therapy. So math therapy, um, as you guys all know, is all about unpacking the trauma that gets associated with people's math experiences that so many adults and kids obviously carry with them, but many adults carry with them throughout their lives, and it affects them in so many ways, other than mathematically. Um, and Liz is one of those people who has had enough trauma with math that she's literally blocked an entire year out of her life. So why don't you start by telling us about your relationship with math? Do you like math? What's the vibe?

SPEAKER_02 3:46

I mean, I definitely have a different relationship to math now than I did even just two years ago. Oh my god, okay. I definitely do. I actually borrowed a book from the math guru. Not two years ago, but last year. I'll bring it back anytime. What a book. Um, math, oh, it's the one. I don't remember the title of the book. It's black, blue, and white. But like when you open up the book, it looks like a notepad. And so you can actually see all the different math equations, and it feels like you're it's you're reviewing your own notes.

SPEAKER_04 4:13

Oh, is it the small, the small fat notebook thing? That one? Okay, I like that. Small fat notebook.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Yeah, and it's just like it feels very casual.

SPEAKER_04 4:20

It doesn't feel I wish I'd written that. I really like the style of that. Like when I was writing my math book, that was one of the first ones I picked up, and I was like, shit, I should have just written this one.

unknown 4:29

So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Well, different styles, but I it really made me feel very comfortable in terms of feeling like I was reviewing someone's notes, and I was like, oh, okay, so it's just this, it's just that, which felt a lot more accessible, and also because I was able to go from like a lower grade level all the way up to things I wasn't confident about, but now understood it better. I don't know. I don't know what went through my mind when I was actually in school. Of course, the craziness of life.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

Okay, well, tell me about your math experience.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Well, um, I had math in obviously elementary, middle, and then high school.

SPEAKER_04 5:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

But just every single time I had difficulties with a math question or a math test coming up, I definitely had anxiety around it. My sister, who you mentioned before, was the godsend who basically kind of semi informally tutored me because she had to, because she was my sister. And so did you were you like not doing well at math? I wasn't doing well, no. Like ever? Well, I mean, grade one was great. And I mean, I think I was rocking it until about grade seven-ish.

SPEAKER_04 5:37

Oh, okay, but that's that's a long time to be rocking it.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Yeah, no, I I felt good about math for a while, and then you know, grade eight was like, hmm. Then grade nine was very challenging, and I don't know if it's because I moved to from a totally different school district or why that jump happens, but grade nine was very challenging, and that's where I thought it ended. But apparently grade 10 was on another level.

SPEAKER_04 6:01

Okay, so what was happening? Like, do you remember any like experiences specifically, or do you just remember like struggling with it?

SPEAKER_02 6:08

I do remember struggling with it. I do remember my grade nine math teacher who will not be named.

SPEAKER_04 6:13

Always this is how it always goes.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

It really does. And I remember doing the homework. It wasn't one of those things where I just didn't do the work. I remember doing the homework, but I remember procrastinating a lot. Okay. Because obviously it wasn't something I wanted to do. And there were tests that I definitely sat down, I'm talking about grade nine clearly. But there were tests that I sat down with, and it's one of those things where you were you did all your questions that you knew the answers to, and then staring blankly at the ones that you couldn't figure out why you couldn't answer it. Even though I had already done practice questions of the same similar material, and it was frustrating. And that's what I relate to it now. Like it was just frustration, frustration all the time where I just kind of detached from the experience completely.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

Yeah, that's crazy. Okay, and like tell me about your teacher. What was the deal?

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Well, it was one of those situations where it was a math teacher who wasn't exactly passionate about the subject matter that he was teaching. I mean, he was a math teacher that was also a gym teacher.

SPEAKER_04 7:13

Oh, yeah, one of the math teacher gym teachers.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Exactly. Not to say that that's the case for every math slash gym teacher, but you know, he had a very monotone voice. He was like, This is what we're gonna do. Here's your notebooks, da-da-da-da-da. And I did have a sit-down moment with him by his invitation um about you know, refocusing my math skills and what have you. And it was difficult. But I really feel like maybe if he was a little bit more passionate about the subject, maybe I could have seen it in a different light.

SPEAKER_04 7:44

And so did you pass grade nine?

SPEAKER_02 7:46

I passed grade nine.

SPEAKER_04 7:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

And then apparently made it to grade 10.

SPEAKER_04 7:49

But uh I have no recollection.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

I remember it was my lowest grade.

SPEAKER_04 7:54

So now, years later, here you are working at the math guru. What did you I mean, tell us your experience, like just coming into it?

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Uh, coming into math or the guru? Did they open me on this?

SPEAKER_04 8:08

Yeah, when you were when we were talking about you working here, how did your experience with math like factor in? Were you like?

SPEAKER_02 8:16

Well, when I first contemplated, I was like, okay, this is a subject matter of which I'm not coming.

SPEAKER_04 8:21

And wait, just so for everyone knows, like, Liz is our manager slash admin staff. So she doesn't need to be like teaching math, but you often have to talk to parents and kids about math, right? All the time. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And one of the biggest things is like, you know, one of the biggest things we face is parents and kids who are terrified of math, who are doing poorly at math, who feel frustrated with math. So like who feel the who feel a lot of the ways you felt. Okay, so sorry, back to you.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

No, yeah, I walked in and I I was, I gotta admit, at the moment, at that moment, I was thrilled that I wasn't going to be tutoring math. Um, but I knew that I would have an opportunity to see it from the other side. So I could sit down with empathy or sit down with the same kind of vision of knowing how it feels to jump into a subject matter you're definitely not comfortable with, but you know it's something that is important to your life to conquer. So yeah, I was interested in the math element, the science element too. Um, that was what's happening here. I have a physics story of which we can talk about at another time.

SPEAKER_04 9:23

I wonder, let's hear it right now.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Well, I did back in my day, there was OAC.

SPEAKER_04 9:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

And for some reason, I guess I really had to have done grade 10 math because I was allowed to do you did do grade math.

SPEAKER_04 9:33

I know I actually feel like you did grade 11 math. I don't I couldn't have possibly- But I really don't think you were allowed to drop out before grade 11.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Are you serious?

SPEAKER_04 9:43

Well, like, I feel like we can Google this, but I'm I'm like 99% positive you had to take grade 11 math.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

At this point, I need to take like the transcript out. Like, how could I have forgotten two?

SPEAKER_04 9:52

Well, do you have your transcript?

SPEAKER_02 9:53

I mean, I didn't bring it, but now I wish I had.

SPEAKER_04 9:56

But go on with your story while I Google it.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Well, I was allowed to take OAC physics.

SPEAKER_04 10:02

Oh my god, Liz, you for sure had grade 11 math.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

I don't remember taking that for sure if I don't remember grade 10.

SPEAKER_04 10:09

Okay, so what about physics? What happened?

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Oh, well, I jumped into that, and you know, of course, so much math involved in physics, I didn't know about that at the time, but I thought, you know what, I really wanted to continue on with science. Like I had taken biology, I felt, oh, physics was makes sense. It's logical. You know, how does a ball drop? Figure it out, the math behind it. I figured, okay, this is math that I could probably probably use in life more than all the letters involved in my life. Not the case. Stepped into that class and had the same kind of experience where I was like, oh my goodness. One, I wasn't prepared. I didn't have the foundational information of which I needed to be in that course. Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:50

But you took the physics courses before, right? You would have said that.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

I took I took previous physics course physics courses, but I didn't take grade 12 physics.

SPEAKER_03 10:57

How, Liz?

SPEAKER_02 10:58

I know, but how did they allow me to take OAC physics?

SPEAKER_03 11:02

I asked about it. Need your transcript. I need to see your transcript. Okay. Okay, but it doesn't make any sense. That's okay. Okay, go on.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

I'm completely open to providing it as now you're in OAC physics and you're you don't know anything. Didn't know anything. I had a couple conversations with our Mr. Teacher.

SPEAKER_04 11:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

Um, and yeah, I ended up letting that dream go. Okay, okay, and left that course in the 30s. But I was a little shocked that I was able to jump into that class without having the support system that I needed previously, which made me think that obviously there wasn't that much attention put into making sure that students felt confident in that subject material. It was just like a hey, you want to take this subject? Sure.

SPEAKER_04 11:47

You know, well, this is interesting because obviously, like if you look at your job right now and what our students are doing, there are prerequisites, right? Like it's like you've gotta pass grade 10 to go to grade 11. But one thing I will say is there's a difference between, you know, getting a 50 in grade 10 and going on to grade 11 and getting an 80 in grade 10 and going on to grade 11.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:07

So even though, as you're kind of saying there is a tension placed on whether or not you have a prerequisite, we don't seem to really care if kids have a foundation. So, like we're like, oh cool, you got a 15 grade 10, you can go into grade 11. But that pretty much, I mean, this happens at lower grades too. That kind of means that that student is gonna feel like shit for the rest of their math career because going into grade 11 knowing only 50% of grade 10 is not gonna work out very well.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Exactly. You're just kind of on survival mode for the rest of the grade levels, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 12:36

So, I mean, that that is something that can definitely lead to somebody forming this opinion that they're just not good at math because they're technically allowed to pass through the system, but they're not really given the tools to do it. So you're right, that's a good way of saying it. They're in survival mode, they're not able to actually enjoy anything or to learn, they're just trying to get by.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 12:56

So, what about like do you did you kind of just think that you were bad at math? Like, what did you think?

SPEAKER_02 13:02

I thought I was horrendously bad at math. And the thing, the interesting relationship I had with it too, is that everyone of my family excelled in math.

SPEAKER_04 13:10

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Well, yeah, my mom was an accountant, my dad studied economics and business management, my sister was like A plus plus in math, which is why I was glad she was my tutor. Um, unofficially, but she never got below a 90 in math. No one in my family ever did, except little me. Aww came in and I thought, okay, you know what? I'm just not a math person. Right. I'm an artistic person. There we go. So I thought I used to be. My favorite dichotomy. I know. Which is bullshit, it is, but at the time I was like, you know what? I won't need it in my life. Who needs to be able to calculate a tip? I don't know, but I won't need math in my life. And now I do wish I could jump back into that old self and say, you know what, you can do this. And math isn't for particular people or what have you. It's just a matter of finding someone that can that can show you the relationship that you particularly would have with that subject material. And I didn't have there wasn't that passion. I remember my grade five math teacher was amazing.

SPEAKER_04 14:14

Really?

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Oh, yeah. In terms of like, I didn't understand why I loved being in that class, but it was also the personality, it was the passion and what she was explaining, and also, you know, it was interactive.

SPEAKER_04 14:29

It is so funny too because I know you. Like a lot of the guests I have on the podcast, like I'm meeting for the first time, but because I know you, I'm like, oh my god, this makes so much sense because you're such a like intuitive, right? Like you're all about people's energy and you're such a people person. Like, that's why you're so great in your position here, right? Because you are so empathetic and like you really relate well to people and you vibe off of them. But for someone like you in particular, and I'm sure there are like most people, you know, read people's energy and like even if they don't know they're doing it.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

Unconsciously, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:00

Yeah, how much of a difference it would make to have a teacher that really gave off nothing, right? Like you're saying, that grade 10 teacher, like that would affect someone like you so much. Right? You always have like everyone has had like that math teacher.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Of course, right?

SPEAKER_04 15:15

That like, and it's just so funny because it it's it's as though we aren't don't really we don't place that much of an emphasis on the personalities of teachers. Like they go through teachers college, you see that they can teach things and that they know the curriculum content, but I I often wonder why personality isn't like a bigger factor.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Oh yeah, or at least like some kind of like when they have to take their teachers' exams, something that kind of relates into that direction of how do you yeah, how do you connect with students? Like what would make you want to be a teacher? Like what brought them into that direction.

SPEAKER_04 15:52

It is very, very strange. Okay, so tell me about how working here has changed your perception of math. Like, tell me about that. You were saying that now you see yourself differently.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Well, now I now I can see the fun side of math. Like, we never had any of that, at least I didn't in high school. By the time I had gotten to that grade level, I can see like there it in this environment, like social media. Math is involved in social media where like there's contests, and like you get excited about getting the right answer and how you came to it. The journey is important. Before it never felt like a journey, it just felt like a step process that you had to just get done in order to move on to the next. It didn't really feel like an experience. And so now being able to observe all these experiences and the journey from I don't feel confident to oh my gosh, why can't I do math all day long? Right. For some folks, is awesome.

SPEAKER_04 16:46

And like, do you see yourself in a lot of the students that you kind of enroll here and whose progress do you see?

SPEAKER_02 16:52

100%, and then a few more on top of that. Okay, that's not true. Don't get me wrong. I um I know the whole 100% can't go beyond, but I feel like there's a little bit of infinity moments that I'm having. Oh my god, look at you.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Unstoppable.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

You know, I'm trying. But um, yeah, absolutely. Down to just like the calmness of uh realizing that oh my gosh, I can accomplish this to the breakdown of why can't I get it? Like I've definitely seen the different dynamics, and to now be able to see how it could have felt on the other side of the coin, had some a place like the math guru existed, or maybe it maybe there's something similar that existed in my day, I don't know, because I never really ventured out there to find out. But to know that something like a support system like that could exist that could make something that seems very cut and dry, because it is, in terms of like, you know, there is a question and there's a solution that everyone comes to.

SPEAKER_04 17:58

It's not like it's you know liberal arts where you know No, but there are often more than one way to get to an answer, but in school we normally don't emphasize that, right? We're teaching everyone steps instead of being like, come up with the answer in whatever way. We're not really teaching that part of math, which is the most exciting part, and especially you as someone who identifies as being creative, that would have been such an exciting thing for you because math really problem solving is all about creativity.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 18:27

I mean, right, like we were just talking about like the manhunt for the two missing teens, but like not that this is gonna be relevant anymore, but whatever, all of those, you know, when when the police are out searching for something like that, that's part of the reason I'm so like fascinated by this. People are like, why do you care? Stop talking about it. But I'm like, I wonder what algorithms they're using. Like, I wonder what they're using to find two people who are hiding from the military in Canada. Like, imagine all of the factors you'd have to take into consideration. Like, there's a process, there's a plan, they're like, it's all about creativity and that it's all math. Yeah. Problem solving, looking at maps, looking at how they would be, if they're on foot, how they're getting around. Like, that is all math.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 19:11

So, yeah, it's it's unfortunate that like we don't really approach it that way because I think then those who kind of enjoy that creativity um a little more would really, really flour flourish, right? And they would really see kind of the beauty behind it.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Agreed. And that's kind of that's and that's the higher math of which is usually so difficult to jump into. That's exactly what the the examples that happen in everyday life, the ones that we thought that weren't going to be related to our everyday lives, is exactly what we do see every day.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

Now, you were mentioning that now, you know, back this is what every kid thinks, obviously, that you're never gonna use math. Do you how do you feel now?

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Oh, I do use it every day, multiple times a day.

SPEAKER_04 19:58

Like in what?

SPEAKER_02 19:59

I mean, one, there was that example of just calculating a tip or what have you. But also, you know, like you were talking about mapping, trying to figure out like how fast can I get to a particular location if I'm going downtown through traffic versus if there's no traffic. I mean, there's some unconscious calculations that I'm also using that I probably couldn't even tell you by now.

SPEAKER_04 20:20

That's awesome, but that's exactly it. I think that's really a good way of putting it. Like, I don't think people realize that they're doing math.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Well, no, because it doesn't feel like math when it does when you don't see a textbook in front of you or you know, you're not actually writing with a pen and paper how to calculate it. But a lot of things is mental, a lot of it is mental math, and a lot of it is supported now through technology. Of which wouldn't it be fascinating if we could actually do it within our minds and pen and paper rather than relying on technology sometimes? That could always fail. But to have that knowledge is powerful, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 20:57

And do you you said now that you feel like you could do it, right? Like that you're like, you know, you've kind of realized that. Did you did that change at some point? Like you used, did you always believe that you could do it, or was there a kind of a turning point from when you were like, I'm just not good at math, to well, I actually would be capable if I had the right resources?

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Oh, definitely the transition between grade eight and grade nine. Grade eight felt challenging, um, but accessible. It was just like oh, I have to really pay attention and I have to kind of figure it out. But grade nine, it felt like, what's happening?

SPEAKER_04 21:32

And how about now though? Now you feel like you could learn it.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Oh, well, now I understand that I probably just didn't have a strong foundational um information in order to move forward into that grade nine level. And I didn't try to look back, I was just struggling at the level that we were at on that day in class, and then the next day only progressed from there. And because I wasn't working on homework, I then couldn't move forward. And do you feel like

SPEAKER_04 22:00

You know, as an adult, I always wonder this like, how do you feel like you believing that you were incapable of doing math affected you in other ways? Like, do you think that affected your confidence at all? Like just in life or your sense of self-worth?

SPEAKER_02 22:14

Of course it did. To feel like I can't do something can relate to so many different other other things, and all of a sudden I relate something being challenging as I can't do it, as opposed to feeling like, oh, it's challenging. Okay, so how are you gonna scoop this up? How are we gonna figure this out? Right. It could feel very defeating if it constantly feels challenging and the solution feels like it's always going to be beyond one's grasp because it just unconsciously will trigger.

SPEAKER_04 22:40

Yeah, and that's that's kind of like why I love talking to people about this because I think people, I mean, you seem like very aware of it, but I think math is always this well, but still, whatever. You know, math is something that many people feel they're incapable of. And the idea of fe of actually believing that there's something, like this idea of a math person, like actually believing you were born almost like with an incapacity to learn math is scary. That's a scary thought to have because it's like, what else are you incapable of doing then? Right? You know what I mean? So I think it's really important to realize that, like you said, maybe you didn't have the resources or you had a bad teacher, or whatever it is, it's not that you are like missing a gene.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 23:25

You know? Okay, well, this has been amazing. Like really, really good insight, and thanks for sharing all your math secrets. A few more questions I just want to ask before we kind of wrap up. What's something that has kind of helped you with your previous math experience when it comes to talking to parents or students about their struggles with math? Like, I guess I mean I'm thinking it's kind of like really incredible. Like, you really can literally empathize with students and parents since you've been there. Do you have any like key things that you tell them, or do you think that makes a difference? Like when you're speaking with someone who will now say to you, I'm, you know, my daughter or son can't do math.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Well, one, often the student, and I can say this myself, will relate not being able to do math to an IQ level or an intelligence level, right? Because when someone says, Oh, I'm not artistic, that doesn't really equate to, oh my gosh, you're not smart enough to be artistic.

SPEAKER_04 24:23

Very good.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

But when someone says, Oh, I can't do math, it's like a oh, are you smart enough to do math? There's that question. So often when the parents will talk about their kids, they'll say, Oh, they don't feel, yes, they don't feel confident, but then that the other comment towards that is that they feel stupid.

SPEAKER_04 24:41

So interesting, and I've been having this debate with my friends for so long. Like, what is it about math that makes it the thing that makes you smart or not?

SPEAKER_02 24:51

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 24:52

What is it?

SPEAKER_02 24:53

I really don't what I feel is because the subject matter seems on the surface to be so cut and dry. Like there's an an there's a question, there's an answer. I feel like well, if you don't have the right answer, and as you mentioned before, there could be so many different ways of approaching it, so many different journeys to get there. But if you don't, if you can't get the right answer, it feels like, oh, you're not smart enough to get to the answer.

SPEAKER_04 25:18

Yeah, it is so, so fascinating that it's math that we equate with intelligence. Whereas like the most beautiful painting ever, it's just like that person's an artist or creative, and you would never say that person's so smart because of it.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Exactly. That's so weird. It is, it's quite weird. Whereas, like, you know, these are they're all things that we do mentally that we express on a physical level. But yet, yeah, that relationship. But I mean, there's so many different things. This could be a longer podcast we got into this, like how we perceive different subject matters and from like different genders to different um ages or different cultures. I mean, if you go to one culture to be artistic could be so highlighted in highly regarded and just yeah, exactly, and then in another culture, being artistic is like nothing, you have to be amazing at math and sciences in order to be in that place of elevation. So it all depends on perspective.

SPEAKER_04 26:21

So, what do you say to parents that kind of bring that up?

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Oh, yes, of course. Well, I would just express to them, hey, you know, I completely understand, and I have said I completely understand what you're saying. I went, I was in an artistic place, and I thought I wasn't I wasn't able to tap into math and sciences, and I discovered that it's just it's just as accessible to tap into math and sciences as it is to tap into artistic fields that exist everywhere. So I tell them that you know it's just a matter of them feeling a lot more confident on the foundational information that will allow them to excel beyond that. And so if yes, if they're coming to me and saying my kid has 53 in the subject matter, barely passing or even lower and maybe not passing the course, you know, and that's okay. As we build beyond what as we build that foundational, those foundational information or those foundational steps, we'll take them as steps. I mean, we're not gonna jump into a session and all of a sudden get 90.

SPEAKER_04 27:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

But we're gonna celebrate the small victories. I love this until it becomes a big victory.

SPEAKER_04 27:34

Yeah, yeah, and I think that's so important, you know. Um, some of my guests have been talking about the difference between progress and perfection, and that idea that we really in the school system don't celebrate progress. So, like going from a D to a C is actually huge progress, right? You know, and it takes you have to get to a C before you're gonna get to an A. So I think I think that's great. I think it's really important and something we're really missing.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Yeah, it's really all just a matter of perspectives.

SPEAKER_04 28:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Because the confidence will build in the student once they realize that they are improving.

SPEAKER_04 28:07

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

I mean, what feels like impossible is the belief that one cannot improve. Not that they aren't improving, but that they cannot. It's it feels not possible, so why bother? Right.

SPEAKER_04 28:22

I love the way you said that. Yeah, that's that was really great. Okay, I'm gonna ask you two questions. I ask everyone on the podcast, and then I'm gonna give you your prescription as your math therapist. Ooh, okay. Okay, so my first question is what would you say to someone who says, I'm not a math person? I'd say who is.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Ooh. I mean, like, who is? And if they name me someone that I can relate to, um, or that I know, like if they said, I don't know, Albert Einstein.

SPEAKER_04 28:52

I was just supposed to be like Einstein, you know.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Then I could say, okay, well, what makes him a math person? And they'll probably say something like, Well, he discovered this, he discovered that, he discovered that. And I'll say, Yeah, but there are other things that you've discovered. What have you discovered that another person hasn't discovered? Somehow you were able to come to that discovery, and somehow there was probably math involved. You just weren't conscious of it.

SPEAKER_03 29:16

I think it's bombs.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

Well, the difference between a math person and a non-math person, I feel, is that the math person knows that math got them there. Whereas a non-math person, in terms of perspective, not not that there is a non-math person.

SPEAKER_04 29:31

She's using a lot of air quotes, guys.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

There are there are air quotes, yes. But the non-math person doesn't realize how much math is in their life yet.

SPEAKER_04 29:39

That is just, you're just like throwing out zingers right now. That's a good that's good, that's good.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

I just feel that.

SPEAKER_04 29:44

I love it. I love it. Okay. Second question: what would you change about the way math is taught in school?

SPEAKER_02 29:52

I mean, be interested. One, don't stick a teacher in a subject that they're not actually passionate about. Because then they're gonna transfer it, whether it's consciously or unconsciously, that same energy to the people in the space. I even feel like even those who might have been excited about the subject matter can turn if all of a sudden at this grade at that grade level or at that time in their life the wrong type of expression was sent their way. You know, I I feel like there should be some kind of a check-in, whether it's yearly or every two years, with teachers that teach the subject that they teach, I'm not saying restricted to math, and say, hey, are you passionate about this? What do you want to do differently this year? So that you can always know that the teacher's interested. If they're going to bring their creativity into whatever subject course that is, then they're still interested in. If they're not, and they're just doing it to pay their rent, it might be a time to make some kind of a switch.

SPEAKER_04 30:52

I love it. It is, I think that's just so important. And it really we need to, I we already do. We emphasize the fact that the teacher can make such a difference, but I don't feel like there's actionable items on that. Like people are like, oh yeah, the teacher makes such a difference. Then you're like, Cool, but like I have the worst math teacher, and she told me I was gonna fail. And people are like, Yep, well, the teacher makes a big difference, and you're like, Well, can we do something about this? So I think that's a cool idea, actually, having check-ins with teachers, actually incorporating that into part of like the education or part of like even the examination process. Oh, awesome. Okay, well, we are at the part of the episode where I, as your math therapist, give you a prescription. Okay, and I think I have a really good one for you.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

All right.

SPEAKER_04 31:29

So I was gonna ask you, is there something particular in math that you like never could understand and have always wanted to learn?

SPEAKER_02 31:37

Huh, something particular.

SPEAKER_04 31:38

Like, was there that one thing where you were like I just never got this, or like it just seemed impossible? I mean, I know you've blacked out on both of your maths experience.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Exactly. So now I'm channeling back. Like, even in that book, I'm still at stuff that I do kind of remember doing before.

SPEAKER_04 31:55

Um like what about okay? I think I think okay, we're gonna find a concept to teach you.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 32:04

We need to figure out what it is that you've always struggled with or that you just like never could understand.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Parabolas.

SPEAKER_04 32:12

So you remember doing it, but you hated it. Yes. Okay, so it's gonna be parabolas, quadratics. That's that's what I failed. When I failed grade math grade 11 math, it was parabolas. Parabolas is what screwed me. That's when things really went downhill for me.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

Really? Yeah. Have we experienced similar journeys? Uh, completely just eradicated one.

SPEAKER_04 32:34

Yeah, I am concerned about it. Okay, so we are gonna get Lindsay to teach you parabolas. That's gonna be your prescription. She's gonna teach you how to graph a parabola and what a parabola is, and you're gonna do a full question on your own.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 32:46

And I feel like that's that just to I know you know you can do it, but I want you to actually do it to be like, holy shit, this whole thing I blocked out of my memory, I can actually do it, and it's not that bad. Because parabolas now are my favorite part of the entire math curriculum. I love parabolas, they're so easy, they make so much sense, they're so fucking cool, and it's my favorite unit to teach always. But it's funny because that's when things really went downhill for me. I remember the quadratic formula x equals negative b plus or minus the square root of b squared minus four a c all over two square two a or whatever. And I remember, I remember coming out of a test in grade 11 and saying to my friend Emily, I was like, oh my god, that test was actually really easy. I never had to use that formula once. And she looked at me and she was like, You had to use it on every question. And I was like, oh shit, I got a zero on that test. But anyways, so yeah. Okay, so we we're gonna we're gonna get back to everyone with Liz's homework and uh her transcript. We're gonna do a little investigating. Oh my god, your face right now.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:47

We're gonna we'll do some research.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:50

Thank you so much for your insight. Um, honestly, it was a really nice, honest conversation and some really, really cool insight. Like, I really appreciated you sharing it. It's a good perspective, and I think a lot of people will take something away from it, and a lot of people can relate to you.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

Oh, lovely. I really appreciate this opportunity as well.

SPEAKER_04 34:06

You work here, and you get to talk to parents about this every day. All right, thanks, and can't wait to see your homework.

unknown 34:13

Thanks.

SPEAKER_04 34:14

Liz, love her so much. I think it's so cool that Liz, just being Liz, is really in touch with how feeling incapable at math has made her feel about facing other challenges in her life. It's so true for so many of us that like that feeling of I can't do it no matter what can translate to other things in life. And it's not cool. It's gotta stop, guys. We can all do anything, and if you listeners feel this way because of math class, I am urging you right now to go out and learn something. Anything, I don't care what it is, learn how to calculate a tip, learn how to divide a fraction, learn how to graph a parabola just like our gal Liz. And guys, guess what? Liz actually did learn how to graph a parabola. I walked into our tutoring space the other day and Liz was just like chilling with one of our tutors, excitedly learning all about parabolas. You can check out the fulfillment of that prescription over on our show notes at themathguru.ca slash math therapy, where we put all additional episode info every single week. I would love to say that we've posted a copy of her transcript up there too, so we can determine once and for all whether or not she took grade 11 math. But A, that's personal info, so guys, come on. And B, Liz still hasn't tracked down her transcript. But don't worry, we are determined to get our hot little hands on it. So stay tuned. As always, remember to follow us on all social media at the MathGuru. And of course, a reminder that math therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vicaria, produced by Sabina Wax, and edited by David Kochberg. And our theme song is Waves by Good Night Sunrise, which is my rock band. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just really desperately needs to hear someone else get math therapy, please share this podcast and please write a quick review on iTunes. Those two things actually make the biggest difference ever, and I am determined to change the culture surrounding math, and I really, really, really, really, really need your help, so spread the word. That's all for this week. Stay tuned for our next episode out next Thursday.