Hi, I'm Vanessa Vicaria, aka the Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math problems one problem at a time. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. And don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Guys, okay, today I have one of my best friends on the show. Sandra Burkett is the head of the English department at Toronto Prep School. She studied English literature, world religions, and cultural anthropology at McGill University, and wrote her master's thesis at the University of Edinburgh on the connection between physical text and critical thinking. Sandra loves being a classroom teacher, and I can tell you guys firsthand that kids love having her as a teacher. She's a fan of cooking and sharing meals and great stories and big questions and long walks. But she is not a fan of math. So I initially asked Sandra to be on the show because she is one of those people that like, when you mention math, she's physically reactive. Like, you know, that like I've just seen a ghost vibe. Like she's like, oh my god, oh like her shoulders start like moving weird. It's a whole thing. But Sandra is also the best English teacher I know and is a huge role model for high school kids. So I wanted to talk to her about how being afraid of math affects her in a role where she's like constantly modeling for young people. And honestly, guys, our conversation shed some real light on just how valuable it can be to teach kids that you don't need to know everything, and that asking for help can be one of the smartest things you do. So, everyone, here is Sandra. Okay, welcome to math therapy. Thank you. I need some. Okay, so Sandra is on the podcast for a bunch of reasons, but one of the main ones is I think the really interesting intersection between being someone who self-admits as not being a math person, but also is one of like the best teachers on the planet ever. Like you're gonna be winning awards soon, right? Is there like a teacher's Oscar as there should be?
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, I mean you're setting that up, aren't you? Yes, yes, exactly. Get your output.
SPEAKER_01I'm choosing my gown. Okay, so why don't we just start with like, do you consider yourself a math person?
SPEAKER_00No, uh, the opposite. I consider myself someone who uh has always struggled with math. Or maybe I maybe that's not true. I I guess I was aware that I was struggling with math in middle school. I had a a teacher who we'll probably speak about later. Um speak about it right now. Oh, I'd like to make him famous. He was my mother, my mother still grinds her teeth when she thinks about him. I went to a school in New Jersey where you had the same teachers for uh three years. It was a chain school, and uh I had a wonderful English teacher and history teacher and science teacher, but I had this math teacher who uh just loved to intimidate people, and I think he uh he created a lot of uh sort of what they call learned helplessness in me. And you know, when we were talking about this podcast before in your subjects and that, and uh, and I thought, you know, have I always been a person who struggled with math? And I really have no idea if I struggled with math before that, and I think what that means is that if I did struggle with math in elementary school, it had no emotional effect on me. Right at all. Because I don't know. That's actually like a huge deal. Right. I don't have any memory of it before this teacher sort of crushed um how I I felt. So I guess the truth of it is if I struggled with it before, it didn't really bother me to struggle.
SPEAKER_01Right. And which that's actually interesting because like we struggle with a lot of things as kids, and like whatever, it's kind of like cool, you struggle, you move on. But it took me a really long time to learn to tie my shoes. So, and that didn't bother me. No, I'm really glad you brought that up. That's kind of one of the examples I use whenever kids are like, but math is so hard, and I'm like, wasn't tying your shoes hard. Right. But okay, so it's interesting because the reason I even started math therapy is because when people are doing poorly in math, they tend to have a very like visceral reaction to it. So, like you're saying, like there was an emotional response. Whereas, like, you know, having trouble with other school subjects doesn't elicit the same response. So let's I want to go back to, you know, you're kind of saying, like, whatever, I didn't have any sort of emotional response until this teacher. What did this teacher do?
SPEAKER_00You know, it's hard to say. I wrote an open letter about it once. I'll let you read it, uh, as an example for a project that we were doing in class. And uh he I don't he would he would stand in front of the classroom and he would make um like personal remarks. There's this kid, Jamal, uh, who I remember was a really nice kid, but he was a really big kid. Uh and I remember once the teacher offered him a dollar for every pound that he lost. Oh my god, what? It's in like grade six, grade seven. Uh is Jamal okay? Do we know anything about him? Now that's traumatizing. I don't know. I mean, I can't it's the world of social media. I could probably find him. I do remember his last name. Um I think I have my you know grade seven yearbook somewhere. Uh, but he uh and he would just call people out and you know, and I was a I was a bratty grade seven and eight. I used to sit in the Unbelievable sit in the back of the classroom in my, you know, like death to the pixies t-shirt, my black eyeliner, which I think I still have on today, and uh, you know, my hair and my face. But I I didn't have uh like a universally difficult relationship with teachers. I had great relationships with other teachers, and you know, and I did well in school. And so it was the kind of thing that um struggling in in, you know, in one subject and being largely disinterested, I mean it it wasn't going to ruin the whole experience for me. I really, and you know, as much as I don't think it's fair to put all the blame on him, uh, I think he really stood there and would call me out when I think he I think he knew I didn't know the answer or I didn't know what I was doing. I think there's a difference of um, you know, I'm I'm a classroom teacher and sometimes a kid looks like they're totally on board to answer something and then they they say it and it's it's you know, I mean it boys it wrong. I mean and there's there's ways to handle those situations that doesn't embarrass that kid, but also make sure the other kids don't pick up on that as the answer. And I mean, it's really not that hard to negotiate in a classroom. If you're intimidating kids and you're making them feel like crap, I don't know, in my experience, I think that you're meaning to.
SPEAKER_01Right. Well, actually, like ask Sido, why do teach do you ever do that? Like, I find like I've all I've had those teachers, I think we all have who like specifically ask the kids who don't want to answer questions or who don't have the answers to answer. Like, why do they do that? Is it just an intimidation tactic?
SPEAKER_00I think so. And I think that um you can create a whole different sort of uh vibe in your classroom where you, if you're really upfront about the fact that uh I can ask you to participate at any moment. Right. Right? So uh, and I also open the door to uh we have extra help every morning between nine and ten. So I have a lot of kids who come in um who know that my classroom is uh conversation based and uh that nobody hides, and and uh so I with that in mind, a lot of kids will come in and say, Can you take a look at I did these three, you know, let's s argument's sake, the questions for homework. If I were to only offer one, which would be the one, right? And so I offer those kind of things to come in, and so a kid'll uh you know I'll say, actually, you know, you have great ideas everywhere, but this one, number three, you've said something really interesting that I haven't heard before. Why don't you offer that up? And so you give them either ahead of time or in the moment, and I guess as a teacher, you become really sensitive to like facial expressions and and uh you know, even body language of of whether they they know it and they don't they're maybe a bit shy or it was a little early for them, or you know that, and uh but you also do tons of activities that that get people loose and psyched and used to talking to each other and to you and that kind of thing. But to stand there and be like, Vanessa, I think you're doing it on purpose. Right. Right? Uh if you're uh if try and then you have to whatever your intention is, is is going to be clear to them. I mean, I teach mostly grade 12, but I mean when I was in grade six, I was still aware of if a teacher was trying to draw me in or a teacher was trying to call me out.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah, okay, I love that. That's a really big distinction. Okay, so having that experience with this teacher, so what kind of happened with math with you?
SPEAKER_00I don't know. I think that was sort of the end of it. Uh I have um I went to to high school, I went to uh school in Toronto and and I had really good math teachers in high school. I ones that I really liked as people, and I had math classes that I enjoyed, but I I never enjoyed the work. I never feel like I ever understood anything completely. Uh I got I think a 50 in grade 12 math. You know, we know that a 50 is a please go away and never come back. I had I took finite, which now is data management when I was in grade 13, and I had such a nice teacher, Mr. Flanagan. Uh, and I remember he told me once, he's like, I don't think I've ever had a student who who does their homework and gets it all wrong. And it wasn't for lack of trying. I just uh, you know, I had I had no relationship with it, and I and uh, you know, and I never wanted to do it. And even uh even when I got an answer right, there was no sort of victory or high fives. It was uh more like, okay, great, is that is that it? Do I never have to do that again? Or are we done with that now? And I and uh and you know, I it was it was really largely in math. I mean, I was uh in other things. I was a normal teenager, is that you know I had other things going on in my life, but I uh I liked school. I liked, you know, in general, uh, I mean I took biology all the way up to OAC. Um I wasn't really all that good at it, but I liked it. I want to know about you know, like the animal kingdom and the world, and I I got a little lost when it got really small inside the cells. Like I've I've lost interest now. But but for the most part, I you know, I was an interested kid. Uh and and I just think that there was nothing in math that uh was interesting to me, and then when you couple that with a lack of confidence, and then you you know pile that on top of uh like a tendency to get frustrated and give up, it was just sort of the perfect storm.
SPEAKER_01That okay, so I kind of love the way you describe that because I can see that that all making sense as like the perfect recipe for you being like not feeling it. But knowing you now is really interesting because so let's say, like, I mean, I know you pretty well, and it is definitely you exhibit all symptoms of someone who gets anxious around math. So, like, you know, when math is mentioned, I do like I say this a lot, like that certain adults, many adults have like a visceral response, and like your body, like I'm gonna start wearing my shoulders around my ears. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like there is like a weird twitch. So I actually I'm curious how, you know, because the way you're describing it actually seems quite amusing, air quotes, but like normal, right? It's like you weren't really that interested, you had a lack of confidence. I mean, it it makes a lot of sense that you now identify as someone who does not enjoy math or isn't good at math.
SPEAKER_00I think there are a lot of layers to this. I think one of them is that uh I'm a woman in education um who's gone back and and done several degrees, and uh and I and then I still have this uh really nagging gap in my not just skill set but confidence that's so often thrown on to girls. Remember that Barbie that came out years ago that it was like, man, it's hard. Yeah, I like it. And to to think that maybe so maybe there's an element of of of um embarrassment in there that this is so challenging for me, and um that again my job is to stand in front of a group of awesome young people and uh and not just give them what I've got, but more importantly draw out what they have, right? And to not take that kind of talk from them of I'm not this kind of person or I don't like this, or you know, you know, and I consider it, you know, amazing victories when people come in and and they make the it's like day one of the poetry unit face. And I don't know, at the end of the year I always ask, I was like, what was you know, what was your favorite thing that we did this year? And I love when kids who made that face are like, you know, I really liked the poetry we did, and I have to like swallow my smugness. Uh um, but it's it's tricky to be a person who considers themselves you know, a pretty functioning adult, who still has to uh you know, double check the math on their taxes.
SPEAKER_01You know, and so yeah, I wanna I wanna talk about this for a second, actually, because this is again like such a big reason why I started this is I know many, including yourself, super intelligent and functioning adults who carry around this like little piece of inability, right? Or like convinced learned helplessness is a really good good way to put it, like as you said. And I'm curious how that's affected you in ways other than math, because it's funny, like when I asked the question at the beginning when I said, Are you a math person? And right away you were like, No, but like now you're kind of saying, like, you don't tolerate that talk from younger people, and I feel a part of you knows that's not true, you know that it's as you said, a result of this perfect storm.
SPEAKER_00It is and it isn't.
SPEAKER_01I in the sense that um Like, do you really believe you are like incapable of doing math?
SPEAKER_00No, and there's been times that I've joked even with you that now, uh, you know, as as an adult, maybe now I'm ready to learn calculus and I wasn't at at 17, you know, and maybe that's fair. But there's a part of me that is uh I'm amazingly slow and and in efficient at understanding, not even learning, but understanding basic concepts uh of math. Of uh, you know, when I do my medians uh for midterms and finals, I have to still write them all in a line and cross them off towards the middle. Uh because I can't use Excel with any I can't trust myself with Excel because every time I try to use it, I do something wrong and then everything is wrong and I don't know how to reverse engineer what I've done. You're laughing, but it's I was actually deemed untrainable on Excel once by an Excel instructor. My boss, who's uh uh a fabulous principal and and uh you know, a math teacher and a teacher of all kinds of things, uh he said to me, and and and he's not being mean. I mean, I think he was just being uh observant, that I have some of the worst mental math he's seen in a smart person. Uh and he checks on my medians and he's so sweet because he because I always get them right because I do them so many times that I don't trust myself.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Uh, you know, when you're you're breaking down the uh the marks for your kids before you start teaching the course of okay, how many tests are we gonna have and how many assignments are we gonna have, and uh, you know, like how am I going to come to this mark that they get at the end of the semester? Uh it's incredible how long it takes me to do that. I mean, to even to understand um what I what I noticed, I had a great math teacher in grade 11, and uh she was trying to figure out um why I was so slow to remember the next day what we'd done the day before. And she she taught me how to knit, and it was really interesting when we sat there and she watched me knit for about half an hour, and one of the things she said to me was that I wasn't getting any faster, I wasn't creating these sequences interesting. Whereas when people knit, you know, when you watch people knit, you're sitting on the plane and there's someone just sort of passing time by knitting. I mean, exactly is that I wasn't creating it, and even though it's with your fingers as opposed to your brain, uh, and and she was saying, I think that that's a lot what's going on, uh, you know, with equations and with that, uh, you know, even, you know, I'm sure you spend a lot of time with kids talking about things like bed mass, uh, that uh I was not creating these uh memories of sequences of how to do things in order. And what's funny is that, you know, you say, How does this affect the rest of your life? Uh I mean, I see it in a lot of things that I do. Even I I love cooking, but I baking is a real challenge for me because baking is so exact and it has to be done in this particular order. Whereas with cooking, you can back up out of things, you can change direction, you can fix stuff that you've, you know, perhaps skipped a step. Uh so I do uh what I what what she noticed uh I I do see the effects of that. Right? And and I think that you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't take away the fact that I have that a lot of where this um anxiety comes from is low self-confidence uh and uh you know nervousness, but I've seen a lot of evidence that uh I do struggle with this, right? And you know, when people explain things uh in new concepts, even using computer programs to do the work for you, I can't sort of get to where everybody else seems to get so quickly, which is that's just how that's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's interesting because I I mean I think we all have things like that, right? Like I definitely there are things I go into where I'm like, okay, I'm gonna be bad at this. Like I do this with music all the time in my band. Like, you know, like someone will be like, okay, we're just gonna jam this new song, and right away I'll be like, okay, but you know I'm bad at like hearing keys, like I'm not gonna, I need it written down, like you know, and David will often be like, Okay, I'm like, just why don't you just try and I'll be like butt-blah but do you know what I mean? Like, so and then often I will try and it will be easier than I anticipated. And often I'll try and immediately I'll start like sweating and fucking the whole thing up, like you know, just as like a self-fulfilling prophecy. So, like, I I mean, and I don't want to dissect this whole thing now, but I really do wonder, like, as you're saying this, like how much of it is like you do just start getting frazzled from the get-go because you've already decided, like, I struggle in this situation, this is the situation I struggle in.
SPEAKER_00Oh, totally. But I have had uh, you know, moments in my life where uh I I haven't been under any kind of pressure or I've been with people I really trust. There's uh a friend of mine who I've taught at in a couple schools uh before this one, who I called up to my classroom when we changed something uh with how we were going to um organize uh not the collection of marks, but the sort of um demonstration of them we were had to go through show our boss and and she was great and she's so gentle and she's so sweet, and she came up and she explained everything. So I didn't I felt no anxiety being um looking like an idiot in front of her. Yeah. And even still, it was uh amazing how long. I mean, I was watching myself go like you know, through molasses to the understanding of this. And she was very, very patient because, you know, well, she's a teacher, she's you know, she's seen this before. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I kind of like so again, like I just thinking about myself and the things I struggle with, like I've always I'm I mean I haven't always, I think I've just started to come to realize that it's kind of a cool thing. Like, you know, like so I don't understand, like I can't like immediately jam like every other musician. I need chords written down in order to like make sense of them. I need to see them visually, but that just means over the years I've learned that and now I write everything down and then I can learn things a lot faster, or like you know, it's made it's made me definitely learn a lot of the ways I do work in as opposed to focusing on the ways that I don't. And I really like what you had said earlier when we were chatting about it kind of being totally cool to just like recognize that and work with it. Can you say something about that? Because I feel like a lot of people see like what you're saying right now, like you're saying it with a confidence and just sort of like a matter-of-factedness, instead of being like, ugh, like I'm just so slow. You're like, no, I'm just this is what happens when I do this, like you know, so and instead of saying it with this sort of like air of like regret, which is what most people carry with them, which which is what leads to the trauma, right? Like around math, instead of sort of just being like, and I will just say this one last thing before I actually like ask you the question, but like, because I'll all hear a lot of parents and students often say, I'm really bad at math because of this, like because I have to work hard, or because I'm bad at mental math, or because I can't remember formulas. And I'm always like, none of those things make you bad at math, those are just random facts. Like you can still enjoy math, you can still be good at it, you can still get answers to questions without like memorizing your time stables. Although everyone should learn their time stables, or like without like memorizing formulas. So all these kind of like caveats people put in place as to whether or not they're intelligent, right? Like I'm not smart because I can't do this or that. So, like, I like your approach to it. So tell me like a bit about that.
SPEAKER_00I think that over the years, uh, I mean, there were times I'm sure when I was a teenager that I I pushed it sort of to the front of my identity and and wore it a bit like armor of yeah, well, I'm just you know, real crap at this. But I like most people grew up and and now, you know, upon reflection, it's it's actually in in some ways been really helpful because it's allowed me to become really comfortable with asking for help.
SPEAKER_01Right, I love that.
SPEAKER_00With uh with anything, with you know, even uh, you know, I was saying to someone the other day about how much I love my butcher, and this is such a weird example. But uh I was cooking um something I'd never done before, and I I went up and I said, Oh, you know, I'm excuse me, I have a question, and this guy could not have been more psyched to explain something to me, put down everything he was doing, took off his gloves, uh, you know, wrote down everything he was saying, gave me his grandmother's recipe for a spot.
SPEAKER_01Who is your butcher? I know, right?
SPEAKER_00And that, but that uh I think that it's such a great gift to be able to say, I don't know what I'm doing, or you know, I think I need a little help with this. And when I when I bought my condo, I I have um this lovely lawyer, uh, and and we sat in his office and we signed all the paperwork, and I said, Okay, wow, this is really challenging. And he had just bought a house the year before, and he was so nice about it. He's like, Yeah, this is the form I found a little tricky too. Let me, and he came and sat on the side with me and and was um so much more sympathetic and helpful. And as soon as people realize that what you're asking for is help, a huge percentage of them like open up and become mm like slower with their descriptions and check your understanding of things. And and maybe because I'm a teacher, like I recognize when other people Can even take that role for a second. And I think that like everybody is a teacher, right? Oh god, I love this. And so if if you've struggled with something and you're aware of it, and you you can you can drop a little bit of that sort of, well, because I struggle with this, it's not in my life at all. Uh, because one of the things that we were talking about, how just because I'm not a math person doesn't mean it's an excuse for anything, is that can you imagine if I wanted to, you know, start a company and be like, oh well, too bad, right? Because I'm not great at accounting. It's like, no, I would have to either partner with someone who that was an area of strength, I would have to outsource that, which means I would have to budget for outsourcing that or all these things. It's it's not an excuse.
SPEAKER_01Uh and this is yeah, I really like that idea of like it's almost like an extra superpower to know when something isn't your strength, right? Like it's actually like I think about this in the business that I run. Like, there were tons of times when I've sort of been like, oh, like I suck at this or I suck at that. But what it's made me do over the years is just like outsource, right? I'm like, I really like or learn. Or yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because if you're gonna outsource properly, you still have to get like not halfway necessarily, but you sort of have to get there yourself because you have to know what you need.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I guess I feel like I've outsourced to the double outsource. Like I have somebody who tells me what I need, and then that person outsources. But I mean There's a whole cottage industry that has popped up to support the math guru. But it is the point is, I think, is there's so many ways to do something. I could learn it myself. I'm not saying I can't, but I've chosen in many ways to be like, I really hate this. I hate dealing with like technology. I hate it so much. I hate trying to figure out what printer is best. I just want someone to do it for me. And rather than feeling like, ugh, I'm so bad at this and I'm so incompetent and I can't take care of myself, I'm like, no, I'm taking care of myself by recognizing that someone else can do it better.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so wow, there's so much awesome stuff here. I would I like I actually wanted to ask you how you kind of incorporate this into your teaching. Like, not just with math, but I mean, education aside, like even thinking about mental health. And like, what are the biggest barriers to overcoming struggles with mental health or with anxiety or with anything school related is being able to ask for help. And I think a lot of teenagers struggle with that, a lot of kids as well. Sure. What do you see that in your classroom and how do you overcome that?
SPEAKER_00There's I mean, there's a lot of places I can go with this. One is that I work for a school that extra help is is the norm, not the exception. Yeah, I love that. So uh not only is it scheduled into our day, uh, it's in the vibe of the classroom, right? So kids who join us uh later, you know, in grade 10 or 11 and 12, uh it takes them a couple weeks to sort of recognize that, oh, this is the culture here, and that if you're sitting there quietly, you know, uh keeping your questions to yourself, um, well, that's not gonna last long. Right? And that's so I mean but I like that. It's like built into the educational structure. Um and the idea that everybody needs it, right?
SPEAKER_01Um and kind of like everyone needs a therapist vibe.
SPEAKER_00Well, sure.
SPEAKER_01But you know what I mean? How that's kind of stigmatized as something that like only certain people ask for. Same with extra help, same with putting your hand up and asking a question. Like even as adults, like you go to a lecture and people are scared to ask stuff. I know. But I like that idea that it is like the norm.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's totally the norm. Um, but the other side is that one I don't I I think teachers who have never struggled at all uh have maybe a little bit of trouble relating to a kid who is struggling. And you know, I mean there's there's kids who uh you know have all kinds of um obstacles in the classroom, and some of them are just like a tendency towards boredom or you know, huge active social lives that uh, you know, they they're have they're not really interested in what's going on at the front of the class because there's 15 things that are happening on their phone at the same time. Uh the but the one that we're really talking about is is this idea of of you know sort of anxiety over not getting it. And I think one of the biggest problems right now is that uh there's so much expectation of success on people, right? That if you are not getting a 95, you're not getting it. I mean, and uh and I think that that needs to to roll back a little bit and to say that if I'd gotten a 70 in grade 12 English, I would have felt like I'd I'd won some kind of national award.
SPEAKER_01You know what I mean? Like mathematically, knowing 95% of something is a ridiculous expectation for every single person to have.
SPEAKER_00I know, and so that this idea that uh because I've seen kids who crawl up in progress with every activity and everything that you do, you know, and they'll start a class with you know getting 60s and three weeks in be disappointed when they're getting a 72 on something. And but I'm really trying, and I said, yes, and look what's happening! And because there's this expectation that something is gonna snap into place and then all of a sudden they're gonna be road scholars. Um, and that uh that's coming from a much larger culture than just inside a classroom or a school or uh a a city. But I think that that's something as educators that we have to tackle, this idea that um of perfectionism, and that uh that that's where not all and not even most, but a great deal of the anxiety in the classroom comes from is that I've had kids and I teach humanities and social science classes where I've almost had to um like wrestle papers in from people who are like it's not perfect, it's not perfect, it's not perfect. And I said, Well, it never will be because that doesn't exist.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Right? Are you ready to hand it in? Right. Well, also because it was due three minutes ago, so you are ready to have to come in now, right? And that you know, we work really hard in uh you know in in English to say that this is the best essay I've ever written.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Which is uh like an amazing goal. Not this is the best essay anyone's ever written, or this is perfect, but to say this is my best work.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right? And that's what feels really good to say out loud, right? And and I'm sure it's the same in math, to be like, that's the best I can do right now, and and uh and if it was better than yesterday, then everything is going in the right direction.
SPEAKER_01I love that. I love it, and it's and quite frankly, I never hear that because I always, and I'm sure you hear this as a teacher too, like people are constantly comparing themselves to others, right? So it's all it's always like I actually very rarely hear that was the best I could do. I hear I did the best in the class, right? Which is that's problematic in and of itself.
SPEAKER_00We've all had quizzes where the best in the class was still pretty embarrassing. You know, I mean that that's not a statement that means anything. I uh and yes.
SPEAKER_01No, I think I think that is that is it. That's really important. Like, you know, we always say like progress over perfection, and it's like this ridiculous like Instagram hashtag, but like nobody really embodies that or like you know, takes that to heart. Okay, well, I love that. And so now I'm gonna ask you the two questions I ask everyone. Right. Okay, if you could change one thing about the way math is taught, what would it be?
SPEAKER_00Um, the the relevance of what you're doing. Uh there, I mean, I spent so much of my life in math classes sitting there, uh, and like I said, even you know, getting questions right or following the steps, but there was sort of a, you know, um like a Sisyphean nature to it of I'm just rolling this rock up this hill. Like I, you know what I mean? It's like what am I doing? I mean, that the uh the and for what? You know, you got the answer right. It was minus three, terrific. Like minus three. Like there was no payoff to me. There was um, and that's why I think when I took what they call data management now, at least it was connected to the real world. I didn't really do all that well in it, but there was this idea of, you know, what can you solve this problem? Um, and uh, which is why, you know, I teach social science courses and the statistics, you know, to even teaching kids how to look at numbers. And it says that, you know, four out of five dentists recommend, you know, well, what does that mean? I mean, and then uh that I like doing, but so much of the you know, calculus directed stuff, like the trigonometry and and uh solve for X. I mean, I one of my favorite little cartoons ever was that, you know, the like find X, and you're like, it's right there. Uh uh because well, like you look so happy right now just like. What did finding X do for me? For the world. Like what did you know? It could do a lot, I really but that's the thing. So how do you how do you how do you cross that gaping hole for kids who even who found X? Yeah. Like, well, what would you like me to do with it now that I have it? It you know, it's like hide and seek, right? I found you, what am I gonna do with you?
SPEAKER_01I mean, um For all those kids out there that have found X over and over and over again.
SPEAKER_00I mean, like what it and and that it it because there are kids for sure who love the puzzle nature of it. You get the payoff from just getting the answer right. I mean, because they you know they're satisfied by the process. There's still a huge percentage of them who aren't, and you're gonna lose them. My friend uh who you know, um Anna, who teaches uh math, and I'm you know, Anna was someone who got you know a hundred in high school calculus and and you know studied pure math at university. She said her favorite math class to teach is the uh grade 11 applied because those are the kids who've always struggled in math, and then you give them all these really uh sh workable, relatable stuff. She said that um she gave them her student loan remainder. You're like, have fun, kids. And and and said, No, but I figure out uh give me give me two plans to pay it off quickly, and then what that would mean for the you know the life I need to leave for five years, or to pay it off slowly. I love that. And they spent the whole period working it out, and they presented her at the end two different lifestyle plans basically of if she wanted to go free in five years, or if you know she wanted to do other things, and they she said that they look so proud of themselves.
SPEAKER_01And well, no, that is that is amazing, and for sure there's I oh I think it's insane that grade 11 applied math is the only like math where you learn life skills, right? Anyways, that's a whole other discussion. Next question What would you say to someone who comes up to you and says, I'm just not a math person? Well, how old is that person?
SPEAKER_00Does it matter? Yeah, because if they're a teenager in my care, I think I would say maybe you haven't had an opportunity for that not necessarily to be true. Because I've seen kids who at 14 call themselves not a math person math excuse me, math person, and under different circumstances, maybe just even years of maturity or the right teacher or the right school or uh even the right kind of classroom environment um change their mind.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Right completely. Uh so I I don't think there's just a straight answer to that. Sorry.
SPEAKER_01It's math, there's always a right or a wrong.
unknownI'm kidding.
SPEAKER_01Okay, which is why I teach English. Well, thank you so much. This has been honestly a really, really amazing discussion. I'm sure everyone would agree that you should probably just have your own podcast because I could just listen to you talk forever. So at this point, I always give someone a prescription as your math therapist. So I think what would be really cool if you're down for it is you said you wrote an open letter. Yeah. And what was it about? That teacher. Would you be open to us taking a video of you reading your open letter out loud for everyone? Sure. I would love that. I think it'd be really good for everyone to hear and just to visually like see you reading it. Okay, awesome. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I feel better already. Oh my god, so do I. Ugh, I just love talking to Sandra because it's like every sentence that comes out of her mouth is like the wisest thing anyone has ever said. I really, really love the idea that asking for help is your biggest strength, not your greatest weakness. And honestly, I encourage you guys to write down five things that you struggle with or don't love or simply need help doing, and then to get help doing them. That can mean hiring someone, asking a friend, or simply setting aside the time to learn more about whatever it is you don't know and you feel you need help with. For me, I found that just writing them down gave me permission to stop feeling bad about needing help. Like, cool, we can all just admit that I don't know how to use Google Drive, and I can just stop getting frustrated every time I prove yet again that I can't use it, and I can just ask David, aka our podcast editor, to teach me how to use it once and for all. Cool, fine, I'll do it. Okay, so I know you all want to see Sandra's open letter, which we prescribed her, and you can. Go check that out on our website where we put all of our show notes and extra episode-related content. Themathguru.ca slash math therapy. Remember also to follow us on social media at the MathGuru because we'll post a ton of stuff there every week. And of course, a reminder that math therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vicaria, produced by Sabina Wex, and edited by David Kochberg, aka my new Google Drive Tutor. And our theme song is Waves by Goodnight Sunrise, My Band. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or needs to hear someone getting math therapy, please share this podcast and write us a quick review on iTunes or the Podcast App. Those two things actually make such a difference. I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math because it sucks right now, and I need your help, so please spread the word. That's all for this week. Stay tuned for our next episode out next Thursday.