Hi, I'm Vanessa Vicaria, aka the Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. And don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Um hi guys, and welcome to the first episode ever made in the history of this planet of math therapy. So I decided to just go for it and start with a bang. So today I'm talking to Sonny Verma, who is basically a superhuman. Don't worry, he's not a math genius or even a math hater or really anything. He's actually like a math neutralist. Is that a thing? Like he just doesn't even really give a shit about math, despite the fact that he was pretty good at it. No, fuck math. Sonny is all about mindset and attitude and how those are the two most important factors. Oh my god, first math pun of the season, in whether we feel capable of math, or in fact, of whether we feel capable of anything at all. Let's give the guy some street credit. Sunny is the founder of Tutor Bright, one of the world's largest in-home tutoring companies that primarily focuses on raising self-esteem and self-worth. Sunny's a speaker and an expert in the self-esteem and education realms, and he's all over the news, like all the time. Guys, Sunny is recognized as one of the top experts in happiness by the Napoleon Hill Foundation. So cool. All right. First episode of the season, let's do it! Sunny, welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00Okay, one of the coolest things I think about you is while so many tutors really, really focus on educational content, like curriculum content and grades, you have such a strong belief in attitude and mindset as one of the key factors to doing well in school.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So in terms of math, I think I think that's kind of what I want to talk to you about is I know Tutorbite tutors all sorts of subjects, but when it comes to math, like how did you feel about math when you were growing up?
SPEAKER_02Uh I love math. Always? Not because I was good at it. Okay. So math wasn't something that I was good at, but math is so math out of every subject, take the sciences, take the languages, and let's take the math. Math is the only true subject in the world. Like you literally, two plus two equals four, irrespective of who you're talking to, right? There's no like the theory mathematics so proven and sustained within like everybody. Like nobody's gonna discount or or think that you're you're saying something false when you say a math equation. Like it is so like ingrained in us that math is true. So what it math did is like w irrespective of how I answer the question, if I was right, I was right. Versus English or even in science, there's some like theories that get disproven and get changed over and over in time, but that's not the case with math. So I loved math. Well, I loved and hated math. I hated it because I was never really good at it, but I loved it because it's like where you get the light bulb. It's like the practicing of the aha's. Like you're like, oh shit, that actually makes sense. I never had that with any other subject. You either got it or you didn't get it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, actually, that's really true. When I think about it too, like, yeah, like you're definitely like what's happening. A lot of subjects are just memorizing or just like, yeah, like let's say English, like you write an essay and you're really proud of it, but there's still not really an opportunity for the like all of a sudden having an epiphany of being like, Oh yeah, if you write an English essay and you get 90% on it, that 10% that you didn't get is very subjective.
SPEAKER_02Even that 90% is very subjective. And math, it's not, it's very objective. You either got it or you didn't get it. And that's when you get it, that's like you can't memorize math, you can't rely on that. You have to rely on like comprehension, understanding. And a lot of this is like, you know, you do it over and over again, it's like then it just kind of clicks out of nowhere. So with math, like every time I felt really insecure about it, and I'd like actually test my resilience and my hard work, and I have these like kind of like interesting breakthrough moments of like, oh, I kinda I kinda get this actually. And then I could apply on the test, and it kind of showed in the fruition of the results, like, hey, I didn't do so poorly. It made me feel great. Like I was like, shit, I'm in control because it's like I didn't nothing's locked because it wasn't subjective, right? Because with English, I'm like, oh, my teacher was being nice to me. Right, right, right. You can't be nice on a math test. Yeah, you either got it or you didn't get it. That was the best part, is like those epiphanies and breakthroughs showed me of things that I thought I wasn't capable of that I could with hard work and dedication.
SPEAKER_00I love that. That's amazing. So that's really interesting because I mean, so what would you do, let's say, if you really didn't understand something? Like what where where how would you work hard at it?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so I I it the one thing with math, it's not necessarily about working harder in the sense you can't do the same thing over and over again if you keep making the same mistake. If anything, you're digging down the wrong path. Right. Then you don't want to do that, but you have to get the right information, right? So the thing with math is that okay, this is the biggest problem with it, is that we we teach it by like a written format. It's really fucked up, right? Um, like you can look at like a textbook, it's like just written text over and over again that you have to answer now a specific question. It actually has no context.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02You have to create context around math. So, like thinking about how it can be practically used in your life for, for example, like if you're learning angles and and geometry, you can think about shooting hoops. You could think about like you know, hitting a puck with a stick, you can think about it in a multitude of ways, but it's just not it's just not the way it's taught. Even like baking, baking is one of the best ways of that I learned about ratios, you know, like when somebody's like that's two to one or whatever, then if something's like, hey, you need two, you know, teaspoons of baking soda to one like teaspoon of water, it'd be like, oh, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_02That actually makes sense. I you can practically use it. So for me, when I didn't get it, it was like finding the context and why I'm learning it. And that's the thing in school, we don't teach this context. It's it's very black and white. It shouldn't be because math is everything. When somebody talks about math and they say um like it's not like it's not for them or like I'm not a math person. I'm not a math, I'm not a math I hear this all the time. I'm not a math person. Um you are if you live in today's world, if you lived in any point in history, you have to be a math person. Everything is computation. Everything.
SPEAKER_00So what do you what do you think people mean like when they say I'm not a math person? Like I, in my experience, I literally like I just think it's facts. Like you're not a math person. Like what I'm always like, what does that mean? Like that means you are in to that to most people, I really think not being a math person means that they legit feel they are incapable of comprehending math.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but you can. Like, I mean, it's like it's like saying you can't see when you're looking at something. You genuinely are seeing and you just you just for some reason somebody's fed you some bullshit, right, and you continue to eat it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right? You've been fed this at one point in your life, and now you're consistently asking for the same meal every time you say it, even though it tastes like shit.
SPEAKER_00I love it, I love it, I love it. Well, so that's this is why I started math therapy, right? We were talking about this before, this idea that like at some point in many people's lives, they have been taught or told or made to believe that they're I'm using air quotes, not a math person, right? So they can't do math and they carry this with them for the rest of their lives. So, like, what's so crazy is, I mean, what I'm trying to do is like, how do we undo that, right? Like, forget kids who, well, obviously that's like our bread and butter is actually like preventing these beliefs from from actually formulating and like digging themselves a little trench like within the human spirit for the rest of their lives. Like, how do we unpack this with adults so they can let go of it?
SPEAKER_02Oh, this is such a good question. I love it. Okay, so there's a couple things here. You said this earlier, it's trauma.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Right? You told me pre this recording that math, like when you suck at math, it's extremely traumatic. And then I was like, oh, that's like PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, right? So we have to start to think about this as like a real thing. What the real thing is. Oh, really? Oh my god, I totally, yeah. So it's like shit that happened in our past that we're carrying into today. Like anything that's going to cause trauma in our life is one, if we ever revisit it, we're gonna feel the same sense of fear, the shaking, the nerves.
SPEAKER_00And that's why when adults see numbers now, they're like, oh my god, like I can't. They don't even try, right? They shut down.
SPEAKER_02But that's exactly it. So so in order to get out of PTSD, either if it's math or anything, but let's keep with math, how do you get out of it becomes a question. The thing is that we don't have a reverse phrase for PTSD. When I think about PTSD, and if you want to get out of it, you have to know what the opposite of PTSD is. So if we did it, it would be post um healing relaxed order.
SPEAKER_00Do you just make that up right now?
SPEAKER_02That's exactly it. Post-healing relaxed order. That's what it would be. The opposite of trauma is healing, uh, the opposite of stress is relaxed, and the opposite of disorder is order. Right? Oh man, okay, wow. So the only thing, and the only way that you find a post-healing relaxed order is putting yourself in the same situations, re-experiencing it with a new frame of mind. I'm loving that. It's not bad. It's with a brand new frame of mind. Think about this, okay? So let me ask where did you grow up?
SPEAKER_00Here, Toronto.
SPEAKER_02Okay, did you always live in the same house growing up?
SPEAKER_00I did.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Um elementary school, you graduated, I'm sure, some time ago. Have you ever revisited your elementary school?
SPEAKER_00I actually gave a talk there a few weeks ago.
SPEAKER_02Okay, when you walked in, did it feel a lot smaller than what you remembered it to be?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Okay, this is my point. Okay. So as adults, we have the amazing opportunity to revisit physical places in our past. And when we go there, for some fucked up reason, it looks way smaller than what we remember it to be. Like when I always always. When you visit your childhood house, yours is still your house, so it's a little bit different. You're almost like, I also saw my room was a lot bigger than what it is.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, even now when I go in my room, though, I'm like, what?
SPEAKER_02And it's not that you necessarily physically got a lot bigger, right? Even with the school, right? It's it's it's the same thing. Like when you walk into like your old like elementary classroom, you're like, wait a second, this is way, way smaller than what I remember. Less intimidating, all these things. But these are physical things that happen in life. Now, the coolest thing is that we have to now think about how do we take the mental conditioning that has happened to us and revisit it.
SPEAKER_00Does it involve psychedelics?
SPEAKER_02It could, for sure. Without question, it can involve psychedelics. Unless let's say you can't use psychedelics, right? And you have to revisit moments in your past. Um, if you revisit them, the thing is you've given them credit to be a lot larger than what they are. So when you first fail that math test or you fucked up that assignment, whatever it is, you hold that with you as if it was extremely traumatic. You don't ever go revisit it because of the fear, right? Yeah. So you've made it bigger than what it really is, just like we made the classroom bigger than what it really is. So going back and putting yourself in situations to relearn it is so critical because it's going to do a few things. One, it's going to show you that it's nowhere near as impossible as once you gave it credit for. The second thing, once you start to do decent at it, because it's math is fucking logical. Like it's so logical. Like if like I said, if you're if you can live by the 24 hour clock, you are a math person. Yeah. If you're like, yeah, I get it. This was an hour, you are a math person. That's it. And that's every human being, right? So the beauty of it is that if you actually allow yourself to revisit it, like go back, give yourself the permission to revisit math, start trying it just simply. You want to actually happen? You're like, shit, this is way fucking easier than once I first started. And then it then this transcends in everything and anything you're ever going to put your mind to. That's the most beautiful part. It's the one thing that we hold with us that limits so many possibilities, right? It's a belief system that prevents us from wanting to do what we really want to do in our life. Because we're like, oh, I can't do that. I'm not good at math. The second that you eliminate that, wow, like the world truly opens up.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so we like actually have the exact same perspective on this, and that's exactly that's like why I started this podcast, is because as I was saying before, the belief that you can't do math is really just the belief that you as a human are incapable of something on this planet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that is such a limiting belief. So to unpack that and to undo that trauma to change that system so that all of a sudden you can say, like, oh my god, Epiphany, I actually can do math. What else can I do? Is kind of the goal. And like the same thing happened to me because when I was in high school, I failed math twice. I failed grade 11 math twice, and I thought I wasn't a math person. And once I I ended up at a different school with a different teacher, and once I had that Eureka moment of being like, oh my god, I can do this. That is why I started a band. I was like, if I can do math, like, yeah, like what else can I do? Like now I am like, well, what else can I do? And it was all because of this math situation, right? It's all because I proved that this innate belief I had was wrong. And what you're saying is is kind of the the hope, right? Because we have a lot of adults that come to us and who are like, well, fuck, like I I heard what you said, and I'm I'm ready to give a go. Like before I die, I want to find out. I want to figure this out. We have this amazing woman who, Yvonne, who was on the podcast as well, and she's in her 50s or 60s, and she has decided she wants to learn all of high school math. All of it. She said she's failed grade nine math over 10 times, and she's like, screw it. Like, I've heard you speak and I want to do it. And I think this idea of she's now seeing us and revisiting it, and just like you said, how bad is a fraction? It's not that bad. Like, you know, like as an adult, when you go back to it, you're like, you have this memory of fractions being this crazy thing you couldn't possibly understand. But if you with a new perspective and mind frame, like, of course you can understand what one over two is. You know what I mean? Like, of course you can. Like anyone can understand that for the most part. So I really, really like that idea of having the courage to revisit it.
SPEAKER_02I think that's so it's interesting because you have the rise of like learning languages, French, Spanish, Italian, English, whatever, like you know, a multitude of languages, and people say it's gonna make you more worldly, more, more um employable, more, etc. etc. But the universal language of the world is math. And we never ever go try to relearn that.
SPEAKER_00That is very interesting, yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, it's like we think the ability to, let's say, pick up Spanish, okay. Well, if I ever go to Spain or Latin America or any Spanish-speaking country can be extremely beneficial for me. Sure, but you're not gonna really use it. Math is a language that you need to revisit all the time.
SPEAKER_00And like you're using that's why I never cause I people don't see it that way. I think that's it, right? Like, people don't realize when they're reading the news that a lot of it is math that they can't understand and that's how they're being manipulated, or that's why they don't really understand what's going on, or that's why they're like scared of some shit they really don't need to be scared of. Yeah, I think people just people make that relationship, right? They're like, if I go to Spain, I can speak Spanish, yeah, but they don't see that they are really faced with math every day.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's a that's just it. Like, I think it's the mo it's one of the most important skill sets that we need, right? And it's uh you know what? It's not even that we need, it's a skill set that we need to exercise. We all have it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_02It's like let's like if you go to the gym, right? We were just talking about working out. If you go to the gym and saying, I need to work out my legs, you already have legs, you just need to work them out. Right. The thing is, you still have capacity to learn math, you just need to work it out. We just think it doesn't exist in us. It's like missing an organ.
SPEAKER_00It's not- Do you have a theory on why? Like just like why I never hear someone say like I'm not a history person. Actually, the only th- Actually, no, okay, so now that I'm thinking about this, I'm like flashing this out as we talk, people will say I'm not like a word person. It's words, art, and math, right? That seem to be the things. I'm not music. But that's like art, right? Like an artistic, so being creative, being mathematical, and being good with words seem to be the three things that people think are like innate character traits. Why the fuck?
SPEAKER_02Because we've been told, right? At one point in your life, like I've been told I wasn't good at art. Like, you know, I'm I was sloppy, I color outside the line, so I'll never be good at art. That's not true.
SPEAKER_00That's such like a metaphor for you thinking outside the box. I can't even right now.
SPEAKER_02But it's it's legit, right? I've so I always felt like I was never good at art. The same thing many people feel with math, right? They were told at one point in their life that they when they failed the test that you're just never gonna be good at it. That's okay that you're never gonna be good at it. That's like saying, like, you know, the things that you really want to achieve in your life you're never gonna achieve. That's okay. It's not fucking okay. It's not okay. And the problem is that we look at it now, like so it's funny, because like when I was growing up, it wasn't considered disability, it was just considered a reality that you weren't good at it. Now it's called math anxiety. This is a labeled learning disability. That this to me is fucked up. This isn't a learning disability, this is a teaching disability.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, let's hear more about that.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so I think the biggest problem that we haven't really resolved yet is that most okay, you know how you get math anxiety?
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02Tell me. It's contagious. That's fucked up. This is not a viral infection, right? It just means your teacher was really shitty, hated math, and now has to teach it to you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right? So you have this longevity generational pushing over of math anxiety. So you have all these kids that are getting more and more fearful because their teacher had the fear of it.
SPEAKER_00Or like their parents, right? Or their parents, or society, like, or whatever it is, right?
SPEAKER_02That pushes it on you, right? The truth is it doesn't really exist. So okay, what does anxiety mean? It means fear. What's math? Numbers. Fear of numbers. Like, come on. Yeah. Right? This is not a spider that's gonna bite you. Like this is this is what I mean.
SPEAKER_00It's like a really So wait, do you are you are you saying, like, do you not believe in math anxiety?
SPEAKER_02No, I don't. I've seen people overcome it. Like that's why.
SPEAKER_00But you can still overcome anxiety.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but the thing is, okay, so do people get fearful of math? Yes, but I think it's completely unwarranted.
SPEAKER_00Right. Okay?
SPEAKER_02Like it's a completely unwarranted anxiety.
SPEAKER_00And it's not like I've yeah, I think, I think maybe what you're saying, maybe I don't want to put words in your mouth, is that this isn't some like innate condition you're born with.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_00Right? It's not like some like chemical imbalance like we're making it out to be. No. Because we are making it out. We're starting to really go like I'm like, this is gonna, this is gonna be controversial, but we're starting to go a little too far with the idea that like you're born with this anxiety that needs to be medicated of numbers.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right? Like arachnophobia or something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And that's the problem. It's it's you're not born with it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You this is something, yeah, you develop the fear, right? Like kids are very exploratory when they're born, right? They're not very scared. If they see something, they go touch it. It could be a spider or a dog, it doesn't matter. They only start to get fearful is when the experiences make them fearful, right? When you start to impose a belief in them, that's where the fear actually develops.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Absolutely. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_02So that's where math anxiety stems from, right? It stems from people telling you you're not good at math. And then you start to get fearful of it because it's not even that it's like getting the label, okay, I'm not good at math, but then every single time there's a math test. And it's not something that you're never gonna you're never gonna stop being evaluated in, especially in your academics. You know, so so the most um the times in your life that you're most uh susceptible to people's opinions is gonna be in the school ages like three to eighteen. So when somebody keeps telling you you're not good at math, like that is gonna really get ingrained in your head.
SPEAKER_00Well, of course, and especially because most of the people telling you that are adults, right? You're supposed to you so you trust these your parents or your teachers or like your peers, like you trust these people.
SPEAKER_02Okay, you know what's like this is this is this is reminding me of something that's really fucked up. So when I was 18, I didn't really love math. I wasn't bad at it at that point, but I didn't love it. It was by far not my best subject. When I'm 24, I start tutor bright. My first few students are grade 12, data management, calculus, and advanced functions or algebra and geometry at the time, it was called at the time. Right. Um it like this was a subject set they had, and now I had to relearn it to teach it to them. Right. And when I was relearning it, I was like, did it just get easier? That's what I was thinking. I was like, did this shit just get way easier? Or am I smarter? I wasn't any bit smarter, I just approached it differently. Like the thing is, like, I remember my math teacher standing at the front of the classroom being like, pay attention because this unit's really hard.
SPEAKER_00Well, I love when teachers say that.
SPEAKER_02They're like, Why are you saying that's what fucking like you're essentially setting me up for failure? I already dislike it. Now I'm not even gonna pay attention. Like you told me, like, there's no point you didn't say pay attention, you said there's no point in paying attention because this unit's hard. You might as well just said that because I'm thinking, well, I didn't get the previous unit, how am I gonna pay attention to this one? So the thing is what we've done, we we've set ourselves up for extreme failure, right? We we set ourselves up to to be taught that it's better to never try than to try and fail. But if you don't try, you fail by default.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that's the biggest challenge that I think we see with math. Like math, well, not even just math, anything that you're ever gonna do in this world starts with one thing, and that starts with trying, right? But we prevent trying by consistently put imposing a mentality that that you suck or you're not good enough. It's it's like painful to try.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like what is that about? Like, because I've been thinking about this recently, because I know both of us do a lot of work around failure, right? We're like huge proponents of failure, and I know that like literally pretty much every great thing, not every great thing, but like 90% of the great things that have happened to me have happened as a result of failing. You know, like either failing and like learning something from it, or failing and then something else happening that I didn't anticipate that was better than like the initial desired outcome or whatever it is. So I've been trying to think when I talk to kids who have like, you know, diagnosed math anxiety, when you really dig down and you're like, Why are you nervous for the test? Right? I I read this quote somewhere that like all roads leading from anxiety lead into homelessness. And I thought it was really funny because it's so true. You ask someone, why are you nervous about this math test? And they'll be like, Because I might fail. And then you're like, okay, so what will happen if you fail? Well, I'll get a bad mark, and then what happens? I won't get into university, and then what happens? I won't get a job, and then what? I'll be homeless. And you're like, is that really gonna happen? And most most times when you ask that, kids are like, well, no, right? Like, no, that's not gonna happen, right? And then you start backtracking to be like, so what exactly is the fear of failure based on? Like, why are we scared of failing then? Do you have any ideas?
SPEAKER_02Uh, I just think it's how we define failure, right? Because it's interesting because we keep thinking it as an absolute. So if you know, if I fail this math test, I'm gonna fail the subject. If I fail the subject, I'm not gonna get in university. If I don't get in university, I'm not gonna have a job, et cetera, et cetera. Right? But that those aren't absolute truths. Any means. It's the way we define failure in our life. Like the thing is, school and our academic system is really flawed because it's taught us that success and failure are opposing opposites. They're not. Failure is an ingredient of success. Right? You need like when you fail, you learn, right? Like that's the most beautiful part. It's like there's so much nuggets if you're willing to go dissect your failure. And the thing is, is how we label failure. If you are an F student and you go to a D minus, you're still considered failure. But there's changes in your habits, your actions, your behaviors that got you from the F to the D minus. If you can double down and understand what these behaviors are, this D minus becomes an A over time, right? But the thing is that we just don't look at it. We just take the label, well, I only went from an F to D minus, so I'm still a failure. So the problem is that the reason why this happens is because we don't measure progress, we only measure results. Right? But progression is the most beautiful thing. Like think about this. A baby learning to walk, they stumble and fall, their tire weight when they're trying to learn, they collect bruises around the way along the way, they get hurt, right? But two things are happening. One, they have like this unconditional love, typically from their parents on the other side that gives them like this big hug and kiss, like when and picks them up while they're stumbling and falling, right? So they they there's no fear of failure of learning how to walk. If there was a imagine every time you stumble while you're learning how to walk, somebody started yelling at you. You know how many people would be crippled right now at being in a wheelchair? This is what we do with math, right? Every time you stumble math, you get like you get reprimanded. Instead of being like, hey, that's okay, let's keep trying. It's like, oh, you're stupid. You're just not good at this.
SPEAKER_00Is that true? Yeah, it's really messed up. Yeah. And I mean, I've always wondered, like, you know, because people will often ask me, they're like, well, what, you know, what's why is it math? Why is it math anxiety? Why, why, why, right? And I'm always like, I don't like, I have lots of theories, you know, like one of them being like, well, I don't, you know, there's right and wrong answers in that, so it's very easy to define if someone's gotten something right or not. It's very easy to be like, you are not getting the results and not to measure the progress or the process or anything like that. Um, and also like I think I I feel like so much of it has to do deep down with like these, like you said, the belief system we've always had, like the fact that there is a type of person that's logical and a type that's creative. Like so much has to do with like defining these types and then labeling. Like, we're so obsessed with labeling people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So, okay, tell me about Tutorbrite for a second. Like what you were saying when you started it, you had to deal with all of a sudden these math students, yeah, right? And that forced you to go back and relearn it. Has has having Tutor Bright and growing it made you kind of is this where you started getting really interested in failure?
SPEAKER_02Like I think I think I was always interested in failure. I think I think I just redefined it differently. Failure when I was in high school and elementary school, it meant it was the opposite of success, right? Failure now means there's a fork in the road, and I can all either call this my absolute end or it's an opportunity to persevere, right? Like like we were talking earlier how you had to revisit moments in your past that cause anxiety. When you are reapproached with this, this is the only time in your life that you can practice the skill set of resilience, right? Resilience is born and practiced in the hardest moments of your life. You have to hit rock bottom in order to practice resilience. So for me, with Tutor Bright, there were so many opportunities to consistently practice resilience, right? Like you, as you're a business owner, this constantly happens over and over and over again. But every time you're practicing resilience, right, it could be an angry client, it could be you didn't get your books right uh in terms of like your revenue and your profitability, it could be a multitude of things, right? But once you start to unpack that, you have the opportunity to redefine what it means in your life, right? You're like, well, I need this skill set, I'm gonna persevere, so I'm gonna learn it, and I'm gonna apply it, and then aha, I don't have this problem anymore. So the thing is we don't look at math as an opportunity to practice resilience, right? For me, Tudor Bright gave me that platform to discover and develop my potential. Math can be that platform for anybody too.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Oh my god, I love it. I come I totally agree. I always say that too, especially when I'm talking to kids, right? Like such a big part of it will be like, well, math is hard, right? When you ask kids about they don't like it, it's hard or they can't do it or whatever. And when you think about how many things in your life, just I always use walking as an example or tying your shoes. It's like at one point that was hard.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Right?
SPEAKER_00And where did you just give up and decide you weren't gonna do it?
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00So what I was gonna ask you one last question. What I mean, over the years that you've owned Tutorbrite, it's been over a decade now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Have you noticed like a difference in the way kids and parents approach math or approach failure or approach this idea of math anxiety? Like, what have you noticed?
SPEAKER_02I think it's I think we've given it too much credit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think we've given it more credit than we've ever had before. I think giving the label math anxiety gives it the wherewithal that you can have it.
SPEAKER_00Did we have math anxiety 10 years ago? No, we didn't, we didn't. I don't even think I feel like I heard like math phobia maybe a couple of times.
SPEAKER_02I think it was in 2017, is when it got labeled as a real learning disability. So things have drastically changed, and I and it's it's the more labels we give, the more excuses we have. That's the problem.
SPEAKER_00So what do you tell with parents when they call and say, So my I get this all the time, you know, like you know, so and so, I have this kid, blah blah blah, they have math anxiety, and so it's just it just kind of rolls off their time, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh it's I I never discount it because it's it's a you know, it's something that they're definitely feeling. But the question is, is what limiting opportunities now is in their life? You know, if they want to be an astronaut and now they suck at math and they believe that they'll never gonna be good at it, what limitations have now been imposed in their future, right? You know, by having math anxiety, the question that we have to have to parents is like, do you want your child to have this label because that's gonna prevent them from dreaming? Dreaming is a first step of achieving anything. You have to visualize it, but if you can't see it because you don't think you're ever gonna have it, that's a big problem. So what if we can rectify that belief? What if we can rectify that dream?
SPEAKER_00Right. I love this so much. I love, I mean, not just for everyone else to hear of it. Like I I'm just thinking about the way I approach it as well, right? It's it's the same thing. Like, of course, you don't want to discount it because you are legitimately feeling anxious about math.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I think it definitely needs to be redefined, and we have to redefine like the idea of being nervous in general. Because like I think about like I'm in a band, as you know, and before every show, like I feel like I'm gonna throw up. Yeah, like I'm so nervous, like I'm like, I can't, like, I feel like I'm gonna blackout, and then I go out there and I perform, and most performers know this, right? Like it as you perform it, like eventually goes away, and you're having the best fucking time of your life. And I heard the beaches say this, they're one of my favorite bands. They were saying one of the reasons they don't drink before shows is because that nervousness and that adrenaline, like they want to use that, yeah, right? Like that that that means it's important to them and they want to use that in their performance. And I think we kind of need to start redefining the use of anxiety and nervousness.
SPEAKER_02Well, anxiety in the scale of emotion is the same as excitement, just perceived differently.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, right?
SPEAKER_02So if you can convert anxiety to excitement, think about what that does before a show, right? You'll be jumping higher, you'll be rocking out harder, right? The same thing with with anything. So when you have anxiety, it's you can if you can redefine it, it becomes excitement.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I love that. Okay, so um, you had mentioned, I think one of the coolest things about your approach to tutoring, it's very much like ours, where there is a whole piece about mindset. We're talking about anxiety, we're talking about self-worth and self-esteem, but you had mentioned that you're actually developing a curriculum surrounding that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so Tell me a bit about that. So, curriculum right now is only focused on the academics, meaning the sciences, the languages, the maths, etc. And there's no rationality of why we have to learn things to the degree in which we have to learn them. And the thing is that school doesn't teach us about goal setting, it doesn't teach us about resilience, it doesn't teach us how to believe and visualize our future, it doesn't teach us how to feel good and overall sustain a really strong positive attitude surrounded about around happiness. So when I when I think about this, like school is missing the major fundamentals of life. You can graduate with top of your marks but still feel really unhappy.
SPEAKER_01This is absolutely all the time.
SPEAKER_02We have the highest rise of depression, anxiety that we've ever seen in human history, right? The number two cause of death in our country for the students that we tutor is suicide. I mean, this is a reality that we have to start to look at. And the reason for this is because we haven't taught them the skill sets of actually developing a really happy attitude towards life. So these are things that like positive affirmations, these are things like resilience training, these are things like goal setting, these are things like vision boarding, these are things like gratitude lettering, right? These are these aren't just hokey pokey things that somebody just came up with, these have been tried, tested, true scientifically to proven to have unbelievable results to sustain happiness for long periods of time. And it's being anxious and happy don't go hand in hand. It like triggers different parts of the brain. So if you can start to practice these behaviors, these habits, and these actions, your whole life actually changes.
SPEAKER_00I love it. So you're going to be actually developing a curriculum to teach kids these skills.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It is so insane. Like I always think that I think this with like the simplest thing. Like, even like the number of students we get who like ask for help with organization or time management. Yeah. And I'm like, how insane is it that school does not teach you how to do that? That is like a life skill. Yeah. You can be super smart and getting 100% in math and like literally not be able to get through the day.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's nuts.
SPEAKER_02Imagine schools taught us about financial literacy, right? How to budget your money, taught us about time management and organization, and taught us how to believe and think big.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I don't you think those are three subjects that are more important than every subject taught at school today? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Like I I I'm still like, okay, I don't understand why mindfulness isn't like now just officially in the curriculum.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like, don't we want better human beings? Yeah. It's nuts. Okay, so I'm going to finish off with the two questions I ask everyone. First question is what would you say to someone who professes not to be a math person?
SPEAKER_02I would say, who fed you that bullshit and why do you keep eating it?
SPEAKER_00Bam! Shots fired. Love it. Okay, what is the number one way? You can you can give a few things, but what would you change about the way math is taught in schools?
SPEAKER_02Uh oh, so many. Uh one, uh, qualify teachers. Teachers who love math need to teach math. Number two, every teacher needs to be a motivational speaker.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_02Every teacher needs to be a motivational speaker.
SPEAKER_00I feel like that's like the very opposite of what's happening.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, if you have the unmotivated to teach the next generation become motivated, there's somewhat of a disconnect. Yeah. Right? So the public speaking and true belief in themselves, so they can they can make that part contagious for all their students, I think becomes really, really critical, right? Uh, I would say measure progress, not results. Right? Math is very, like we talked about, very binary, yes or no, but there is a process in the learning around it, right? So if we can measure the progress and encourage the progress and not the results, so you're not like on the top of your class or the well, what part we look at people in the bell curve. Um I think if we can and I think lastly, uh, I think we have to reframe it. I think we have to reframe it. I think we everybody thinks about math to be like like people look forward to art. People look forward to phys ed, but we don't look forward to math. Yeah, right. There's a reason for that, is because we treat it like a piece of shit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we do. Like everyone's just like, uh math, guys, we gotta do math.
SPEAKER_02And that's because it's the way it's taught. Math is taught through textbooks. Right. You don't want a textbook? It's a book filled with text. That's how God is fucking name. It's fucked up, right? Nobody wants to learn math like this. Teach it through baking, teach it through sports, teach it through the ways that you're gonna use it in your every single day. Right. Treach it, teach it through finance, right?
SPEAKER_00Like even like conversation, like cool problem. Like, I picture like you could totally have like a game show style classroom.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, like where you're like solving problems together and you haven't do shit.
SPEAKER_02Well, even like when parents like talk about like my kid can't do basic subtraction, like, have you given them an allowance? They're like, yes. I'm like, let them subtract when they go have to go buy something. And every time they get it right, they get bingo, they get some more money, and they're like, oh my god, it's working. I'm like, yeah, because it's practical, right? It makes sense. There's motivation in terms of the practice, right? They're not sitting down and just regurgitating line after line of how they actually have to learn subtraction.
SPEAKER_00And like that means nothing to people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00I love it. Those are amazing suggestions. Now, there's one thing I always do at the end of each episode is I give a prescription to my guests. So, like, as your math therapist, I'm supposed to give you a prescription. So I feel like I'm thinking of this on the spot, but I feel like so much about you that I love is the fact that you have all of these, like, actually that you kind of have your own homework that you think needs to be assigned, like you're talking about in your curriculum, this idea of dream boarding and like gratitude lettering and stuff like that. So I'm actually wondering, and I also I follow you on Instagram, so I know that every day you're posting like really inspirational quotes that I think we wouldn't normally attribute to education, but that we need to start doing. So I think for your prescription, I'm gonna ask you to come up with like 10 of your favorite quotes that have nothing to do with math, but in a way have everything to do with changing your mindset around it. Okay, so we'll follow up with you about that. And seriously, thank you. I could talk to you for like a million hours. Um, you are so awesome. Thank you so much for being here. Yeah, I like this. It's fun, great. I'll talk to you soon. Wow, guys, are you motivated yet or is it just me? Because I'm feeling like on fire. Every single time I talk to Sunny, I feel like I'm ready to just go out and crush it. So we followed up with his prescription, and you can find Sunny's top ten most inspirational quotes on our website where we will be putting all of our show notes this season. The mathguru.ca slash matherapy. And if you want that daily motivation, give him a follow on Instagram at Sunny V underscore TV. I encourage all of you to think about the labels we've been given or that you've been giving yourselves. I mean, have you been calling yourself extroverted or introverted, right brain or left brain, a Gemini or Sagittarius? These are all labels. Are any of them limiting you? Think about it and let us know. We want to hear from you. You can get in touch with us on all social media at the Math Guru, which is also where we post extra episode-related content each week. And a reminder that math therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vicaria. It's produced by Sabina Wex and edited by David Kochberg. And our theme song is Waves by Goodnight Sunrise, which is actually my band. Guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, I would love for you to share this podcast. And if you have a second, write us a quick review on iTunes or the podcast app. Those two things make such a huge difference. I am determined to change the culture surrounding math one episode at a time, and I need your help. So please spread the word. That's all for this week. Stay tuned for our next episode out next Thursday.