What the Blue Jays taught us about math education

This past weekend, hearts across North America shattered as the plucky underdog Toronto Blue Jays lost to the LA Dodgers in extra innings of the deciding Game 7 of the Major League Baseball World Series.  And if none of those words matter to you at all - then you and Vanessa have much in common!

However, as a self-admitted bandwagon jumper, even though she was down in the US on a math ed conference tour, she was all in on this series and sucked a bunch of colleagues into her orbit along the way.  While this is obviously not a sports podcast, she and her teacher friends couldn't help observe parallels between what they saw on the field & went through together as new fans, compared with what they see day to day in their students' journeys through the education system.

So Vanessa and David jumped on to discuss some of these parallels, share some voice memos from her teachers-turned-superfans group chat, and even call in a pinch hitter (a term she learned last week) to share the inside scoop on what might actually be going through these pro athletes' minds in the most high pressure situations imaginable and how a student can approach a math test the same way.

The dream team: (aka teachers Vanessa literally forced to watch the games)

• Jenna Laib (Website, Bluesky)
• Alison Mello (Website, Instagram)
• Kim Montague (Instagram, Bluesky)
• Shelby Strong (Website, Bluesky)

Guest "analyst": (aka ex-Olympic athlete / current math ed rock star)

• Peter Liljedahl (Website, Instagram)
• Past ep: Teaching students to ... think?! w/ Peter Liljedahl

Contact us:

• Vanessa Vakharia: Instagram, TikTok, Email
• Math Therapy: Text the Podcast

More Math Therapy:

• Get the book: Corwin, Amazon
• Audiobook: Audible, Spotify
• Merch store: Shop here

Chapters

• 0:00 Clubhouses, classrooms & community
• 16:22 How meaningfulness drives learning
• 23:23 The spectacle vs the game w/ Peter Liljedahl
• 46:39 Anxiety around “winning”

Transcript

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:00

All right guys. Hi. Welcome to Math Therapy. Here we are, a bonus episode that came out of nowhere that I would never have predicted, quite frankly, because we had a whole other plan for this week. But suddenly the Blue Jays were in the World Series, and I became. I, I, I jumped on the bandwagon and I could not have predicted what would have happened next. And in fact, I mean, I guess all I have to say is it was so extreme that David suggested, because I wouldn't shut up about the Blue Jays that we record an episode about this, right? So I just wanna set the stage of what's going on. We are gonna talk in this episode about what the Blue Jays have taught me and us as a community about math education, really about math anxiety, about math community, about belonging, about student motivation. You might be like, that's ridiculous. What are you talking about? But I promise you all of this is true. I've been in the US for the past 35 days. And here's the crazy thing, I've not watched a Blue Jays game since I was like 12 minus the game I think I went to with David eight years ago. That was really, really boring and all of a sudden the Jays are in the series. I'm watching all of this footage of Toronto getting so excited. All of these people posting, people across Canada, coming together, and I'm in the States and I'm like, oh my God, like I need to get on this bandwagon. So I'm collecting people at all of these conferences I'm presenting at, in the US, to watch the game with me. Now, let me, let me just be clear here. The Blue Jays were playing the Dodgers, which is an American team. Little did I know that. It turns out, if you're not in California, most people aren't actually into the Dodgers. And somehow at, at the past three conferences I went to, I managed to find these incredible, wonderful teacher friends to watch the game with me now. One thing led to another. And the next thing you know, I'm on this group thread with these four incredible women that I have collected along the way that are now as invested in the game as me. And it turned into something I never could have predicted. Like we all got into this thing together and none of us cared about baseball. They certainly didn't care about the Blue Jays. I actually didn't really either and. I just started realizing as I was watching these games and connecting with these women that it was all about math. Like, no, I'm not just talking about like the physics of like, and the stats and the whatever, like stuff that happens in baseball. That's actual math. I'm talking about all I could see on the field and in our group thread and interactions where the math skills and standards we are constantly talking about in math class, resilience. Grit, perseverance, redefining failure and success, productive struggle. All of these things were just like popping off. And I was like, I have to make this episode. Like I need to talk about how somehow the World Series and our team, the Blue Jays, has taught us all so much more about math education than I ever could imagine. And these, I always say to teachers, what you're teaching goes far beyond the classroom. It happens on the literal field, guys. Right? That's what they call it. Like the, the field. So today I'm gonna be sharing some thoughts. I have David here for quality control really, because even though I've learned a lot, I don't know much really about baseball and I don't wanna like be spreading fake news. And I've also collected some voice notes and messages from my four amazing friends that you will hear throughout this episode.

David Kochberg: 3:17

Okay, so you watched with a bunch of your teacher friends, and then you guys were suddenly experts on every aspect of the game of baseball. And then you have a group thread because maybe, uh, A lot of people listening probably have no idea what you're talking about maybe, like, I don't know if everyone is a baseball fan or a World Series fan or knows what, what happened

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:39

Okay.

David Kochberg: 3:40

last few

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:40

Okay, so fine. This is,

David Kochberg: 3:43

we are from

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:44

Okay, Okay,

David Kochberg: 3:47

Blue Jays And the World

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:51

Good point.

David Kochberg: 3:53

in Toronto and the Jays made it to game seven out of a seven game series. It was a very dramatic series, a lot of ups and downs, and they persevered, but then at the very final moment lost to the LA Dodgers. And it was extremely heartbreaking for all Canadians and a lot of Americans who also hate the Dodgers and who are

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:17

But wait,

David Kochberg: 4:19

Yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:19

you should tell them too that part of the reason it's such a big deal is we have not won since 93.

David Kochberg: 4:26

We won back to back World Series 92 and 93. I actually was at the W game when they won the World Series, when Joe Carter hit his famous home run, the walk off home run that won The World Series in 93. And it is, it was a historic moment for Toronto and for Canada and so yeah, for them to be back there and it, and they're extreme underdogs this whole season.

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:51

the thing.

David Kochberg: 4:52

underdog last they were last in their league and they have gone like complete pendulum swing. they were one of the top two teams in the entire game. So it was, it was

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:06

The underdog thing.

David Kochberg: 5:09

us as Canadians. And so then it was extremely heartbreaking because all these guys were just really sweet boys too. They was just very, very nice guys talking in interviews about how much they love each other. and then yes, because Vanessa is such a bandwagon jumper, she became so invested and went from not carrying it, and I mean, I was also, I talk like I'm a baseball expert, but I also jumped on, like, I wasn't following closely through the season, but I easily jumped on the bandwagon as well because it's just exciting to be swept up in, in the promise of, of potential glory.

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:46

yeah, I feel like that's another reason, like this is the crazy thing, is all these facts you're saying actually add to the story. And as I knew actually most of these facts, because I learned them along the way and sharing that with my friends out here in the US actually, got is what helped get them on the bandwagon with each piece of information they learned. They were like, oh my God, they're underdogs. Like, oh my God, nine three, oh my God, they're the only Canadian team. Like, oh my God, all these guys are so nice and love each other and are such class acts. Like each piece of information got them more and more invested. Like that was part of the storyline of what got them into watching this game with me that they could not give a fuck about. You know what I mean? Like, and getting so into it. So I think that all ties into the idea of the bandwagon, right? Like what is the bandwagon? It's like you get on with other people, but then all these pieces of information coalesced to create this like movement that's far bigger than like a baseball game, would you say?

David Kochberg: 6:48

you see another fan, uh, someone else walking down the street with a Blue Jays paraphernalia and you're like, oh, they're a Blue Jays fan. I'm a Blue Jays fan. We're not that farro from each other as people.

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:01

So let's, I wanna play some of the voice notes I got from Shelby and Jenna about this idea of community and excitement and like the bandwagon nature of it and how it kind of really ties in to the way we could be approaching education. So let's play Shelby's to start.

Shelby Strong: 7:20

I don't care about baseball. I, I don't, I have never cared about baseball. Baseball has never been my jam. But you were so excited, Vanessa, about this game, about this series, about this team, and that excitement was infectious. And even though I was not excited about the game, I was excited for you. And so I decided, okay, well let me see what this thing is about, because if she's so excited, maybe, like I, if nothing else, I will enjoy watching her be excited. And before I knew it, I was there on the phone Googling what's a wild pitch? And Trey Yesavage's life story. And I'm invested now in this thing that I still can't really say I care about. Like I'm not committing to sitting down and watching every game next season, but I, now have something personal invested, I had people who were also caring about this thing and who were in it, just the same way I was in it. And it reminded me of when I was in college taking some of these, you know, three and 4,000 level math courses that I didn't particularly care about. I do not spend my weekends doing abstract algebra, but I remember these courses so well because of the people, because we would spend nights in the third floor of the math building of our college campus, studying together and working problems together, and commiserating and being joyful together when we made a discovery and it had, it evoked that same feeling in me doing this with you all where we were, we were just kind of in this moment together and our excitement was feeding each other's excitement.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:02

I mean there's so many things in there I think are so cool the, that made me really think like the idea of being excited just because someone else is conci excited because it's contagious and the idea of community, and it makes me think of a classroom of when like we all have heard, or I bet we can all remember this teacher that we were like. Honestly, we didn't even care about the subject, but my teacher was so into it. Like it's often like the history teacher. I feel like, like you're like the history teacher was just so into it that I started caring. And I think about Eva, like my math teacher. She was just so excited about math that I was like, I don't, I don't like it kind and it just made me so excited with her. I think that's part of the bandwagon. Like, it's like you are just getting lost in someone else's excitement and it's contagious. So because of that literal energy of excitement, you get into the subject like, do you know what I mean?

David Kochberg: 9:51

about math because of Eva. Like I agree with you. I, I agree with you in principle, but the idea of comparing like, obviously a, a professional sport, there's like physical acts of, prowess and jumps and, and people like diving for, for balls and a ball 500, like it's a lot of exciting things. So it's not hard for like somebody like you to be excited about that and get other people excited. So that was what I was curious is how does a teacher excited about math to get their students excited like Eva did with you?

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:29

I actually disagree. Like I think it's like, well, I agree and disagree. 'cause I think the thing is with baseball, if you don't actually know the rules as I did, not until several days ago, you're just watching shit. Right? Like you're like not even understanding what's going on. Like, I don't know, all of a sudden someone's walking, all of a sudden someone's not on the basement. You're just like, what is this? But the fact that. Like, like Shelby said, the fact that I'm so excited about it and I'm like, no, like let me explain how this thing works or like, what just happened? Let's look it up. Like there's so much riding on this. It gets you invested in going further into it. And like, yeah, math, you could be in math class and a teacher's like so excited and you're like, I don't even know what they're excited about, but they're popping off right now. They're so pumped, they're so happy. And if that energy passes on. You might be like, alright, like tell me why this is so exciting. Like, what are you talking about? And as you start learning more about anything, it actually can be really interesting and exciting, but you have to be invested enough to get past the fact that you don't know anything. 'cause I could have just watched the baseball game by myself staring at a screen. It's not the World Series, and I would've just turned it off. I'd have been like, I don't know, I see a bunch of people hitting and catching things like, and there are parts of baseball that are really slow. Like you're just like, okay. But so I actually think they are comparable. It's like there are lots of cool things in math, but often the excitement of the person teaching it to you or of the classroom culture is what gets you invested enough to like push through the fact that you don't know what's going on.

David Kochberg: 11:53

if It's like, why does a walk matter? Like yeah, he is just walking to the base, but it's because. the context of what the score is and how many outs there are like that, that defines the stakes. And so if like a lot more is on the line of whether or not this guy walks here, that does make it more exciting as opposed to if you don't know any of that stuff, it's just like, yeah, whatever. He's gonna walk, like he's literally walking to a place. Big deal. Which I guess is the same with math. If you're like, oh, it's just these numbers that are up on the blackboard and I've gotta like follow these formula to do something, but why am I doing it? The classic like kids, students being like,

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:34

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

David Kochberg: 12:35

do I have if you do have a teacher that's excited about the implications of what they're teaching and are like, no, the reason you get excited about learning this thing is because it actually applies to this really cool real world scenario.

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:53

kim Montague sent us a a text and she said, "I can't stop thinking about how I went from not knowing about the game and that Canada has a team in MLB to you encouraging me to watch, and I was all in. Then when I knew others were watching, I could not stop talking to them about my feelings. Shelby is right. This was community building and I felt such stress worrying about you." So it's funny, like we go from someone who's like, I really didn't care, but then you invited me into this thing with these other people, and then you were so invested in it that I became invested in it. And because I was invested in it and I knew a community was invested in it, I started talking about it more. And as I started talking about it more, right, it's like this whole cycle that happens and I wanna play, let's play Jenna's voice note about shared curiosity, because I think that's actually what ties it all together

Jenna Laib: 13:41

Shared curiosity is really, really powerful. Not to brag, but after my session at AT Mini the other day, I had several people come up to me to compliment my facilitation of a task. They told me how they felt like it was so warm and inviting while also being really deeply math and rigorous. I know, I know. I remember telling one of them that I was acting excited about what they were saying during the math task because I was genuinely curious about what they were thinking about that math task. Now we can't be curious about everything. That would be exhausting, but when we do bring that excitement, we can get other people invested. And I see that time and time again in the classroom too. Like I'm really curious about what kids have to say, even though I truly already understand third grade math. I get it, but I love watching them think and getting them excited, and it spreads like wildfire. Really and truly, I never thought that would happen to me about baseball. So this has been a really illuminating week, the power of curiosity is so, so strong.

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:46

We talk so much about curiosity in math class, and I almost feel like we're missing this whole idea of shared curiosity, curiosity isn't just like, oh, I wonder what's going on. But when you have community and excitement, in addition to curiosity, it's like you're, you're gonna hit a home run. You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah. But it's like you are. Because what was happening with us when we were all watching together is none of us knew what was going on, right? And we were all feeding off of each other's excitement and the fact that we were all in it together. And so when somebody had a question, somebody else would be like, hold on, what is a wild pitch? Let me look that up. And then the rest of us were genuinely like, okay, wait, wait, wait. So why does a wild pitch matter? Going back, David, to what you said about context, all of a sudden it's important, there's a score on the line. Why does this thing matter? We FaceTimed you. remember we FaceTimed you to ask you, 'cause you were like, yeah, you were like, you were like, do you know the story of this picture? And we were all like, who is Yesavage? Like, who is this guy? And then we were locked in as you explained his life story. And then as you explained his life story, you got off the thing. By the way, you don't even know this. Jenna started looking, she knows his parents' name. I think they're David and Cheryl. I think, I think I remember she keeps saying Son of David and Cheryl, like, she like literally knew all these facts about him, but all of it was this idea of we were all wondering, we were all asking questions, we were helping each other learn. We were like explaining why it mattered. Anyways, okay, I'm gonna stop now, but it's just, I'm just getting so worked up being like, I think curiosity is more than just like, Ooh, let's create some suspense. It's like curiosity also happens when there's community and other people to wonder with. Another thing that came up that we were all talking about, like me, Shelby, Jenna, Allison, and Kim was like, how did we, in the span of a week and a half, suddenly learn all the rules to base. Okay, not all the rules, but suddenly we are a wealth of knowledge. We understand. All of these things about how to play the game. We know facts about these players' history and their lives and their stories. We understand we can now watch, like by the end of it, we started the entire thing watching the game being like, I have no idea what's going on to the last game. We were messaging each other being like, did you see that wild pitch? Oh, there's like a bench brawl. Like, oh, okay. I actually just learned what that meant, but do you know what I mean? We knew what was going on. How did that happen? Reason is this thing called meaningfulness. What does it mean for something to be meaningful? Now, we talk about this in math class all the time. We wanna make math meaningful, relevant in real life. And I've said this on so many podcasts. I said it with Raj, I said it in another interview. I said it in another interview, that being something being relevant doesn't mean, oh, we talk about apples or trains or something a kid has seen. It has to be something that is relevant to them right now. And relevance actually perhaps means meaningfulness. So here's what Shelby had to say.

Shelby Strong: 17:38

I think a lot of times we actually take meaningfulness and make it, well, when am I ever gonna use this? And I don't actually think that's what meaningfulness is. I think that meaningfulness is, why should I care about this thing? And I didn't care about this thing at first 'cause I don't care about baseball, but I do care about Vanessa. I do care about my friends and my community. I do care about other people being excited about something and being curious about, okay, well they're excited, so let me go and experience this thing. Perfectly with them and find out why they're excited. And I was not watching the game until Vanessa texted me. I was like, did you see what happened? You need to go turn the game on right now. And once I did it, brought back all those feelings we had. At the bar watching the TV together. And so we were able to recreate community, even being apart from each other, through texting, through social media posts, through these different ways of like, it brought us back to that initial feeling and we were able to recreate it sort of on our own, but sort of together. And I think that that can happen with math too, where. Once we have established this can be a thing that is enjoyable, this can be a thing that is fun. This can be a thing that I am not as bad at as I thought or not as uninterested in as I thought. Then we can re-trigger that experience further down the line, either by reconnecting with those people who helped us have that initial experience or just recalling that experience through a new experience. I think that meaningfulness is it can't be something that's externally defined. I can't tell you what's meaningful to you, but I can tell you what's meaningful to me and what's meaningful to me is having an enjoyable experience. What's meaningful to me is finding out player backstories. What's meaningful to me is finding something that sparks joy in someone else and that joy becoming infectious and contagious, and I think that that's a really cool thing.

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:46

Meaningfulness actually comes from Atlanta Horn's book on motivated classrooms. Which is why Shelby started talking about it, because Jenna brought up that book. And this is the whole thing of why should I care? Why should I care? And in this situation with me and these four incredible math educators, we cared because we had joined community. We cared because the stakes were high to one of us. And one of us was super excited and that was contagious. We cared because we knew the underdog story. We cared because we knew the stories of those players. Meaningfulness is individual to each person, which is why motivation is different for every single person. There's something different that motivates every single one of us. And Jenna kind of said something really interesting about this of like, what does it even mean for content to be meaningful enough to remember? So I want to us to hear what she had to say.

Jenna Laib: 20:35

Also, I think it can't be stated enough that I was someone that was deeply skeptical about the idea of spending the night watching baseball, given that some of my previous experiences were less positive and just like it wasn't fun for me, but that because of all of these factors, I was fully drawn into the point where I was willing to do some of it on my own. And I would love for kids to experience that with math too, that it's okay if you had negative experiences in the past, that we can draw you in and show you how exciting it is genuinely as content. It's not just that we had fun as friends, but like all of a sudden we were getting interested in the content of baseball and the strategy of baseball and the statistics of baseball in ways that were previously not interesting to us. That's really cool.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:21

I love that so much because it's true. Right? By the third game we had watched together, we were starting to do like, I was like, oh, are they gonna put in a pinch runner? Like I, I now knew what that was and what it was for. I now knew this rule that like, if you put in a pinch hitter, I actually thought you could put in any pinch hitter. Like, you could be like, oh, like we're just gonna put Ohtani out. the point is that we were all, you know, starting to come up with our own strategies and being like, should they do this? Should they do that? Listen, all of us have watched baseball previously in our lives at some point, none of us remembered or retained a single rule because it didn't mean anything to us. And now within literally a week, some of us, just a couple of days, we had learned a ton of the rules and we're probably going to remember them. You know, like Shelby said, I'm gonna remember this World Series probably forever. I'm probably gonna remember these random facts about Yesavage for the rest of my life. You know what I mean? It's gonna be like living rent free in my brain, and it's all because whole host of reasons for why that content was meaningful. And Jenna is right. It's not just, oh, it was meaningful. We were having fun with friends. Yes, that was part of it, but it translated into genuine interest around the content. And I wonder how we can bring those principles into math class so that kids aren't just having fun because it's fun, but that translates into a genuine interest in the content to the point where they wanna do that work and look that stuff up on their own.

David Kochberg: 22:44

All right. Taking a little pause here to interrupt this recap session. As you might be able to tell, we threw this together pretty hastily in last minute, and so forgot to introduce the next guest that is popping on as a very special remote analyst to share his expertise. So because we're talking about both professional sports and professional math education, Vanessa wanted to hear from a former guest of the pod, a former Olympian and a current rock star in the math ed world, Mr Building Thinking Classrooms himself, Peter Liljedahl.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:24

Peter, as you may or may not know, I have now, uh, joined the Blue Jays bandwagon. I'm deep, I'm in deep. I've been collecting Americans to jump on the bandwagon with me and I collected a whole bunch, like so much, the reason we're recording this episode is because we all got so invested, they were up till 1230 in the morning and their respective states watching this game that they could not care less about, quite frankly. You know what I mean? Like, so part of what I was

Peter Liljedahl: 23:49

but they cared about you.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:51

He knows. He knows. Did, they cared about me and the excitement, and that's a whole thing that we noticed is like the excitement was contagious of like they wanted me to be excited, they got excited, but because they got excited, they got super invested and because we got so invested, we started researching every single player because it's a bunch of math teachers, you know, so they're just like looking up all these stats and all these facts, and one, the reason why you're here, aside from the fact that you're, you know, an ex Olympic athlete, but always an athlete forever. That's actually the reason you're here, to be honest. That is the reason you're here

Peter Liljedahl: 24:27

Okay. Okay.

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:29

we were watching and we kept being like, you know how they show closeups of the player, like the pitcher and like the look in their eyes and like just sitting there being like, oh my God. Like how are they not out of their minds? Like, you know what I mean? Like a pitcher would give away a home run and then like have to get back on the mound and pitch again without focusing, and we were like, how are they doing it? What are they thinking? Now, I know you're not psychic, but we want to know what was going on. Like what happens, how do they do it? This is ties in, by the way, in case you think that we've turned into a sports podcast. We have not. This ties directly into math anxiety where I'm like, how do we help kids get out of their heads and get into the game despite their previous mistakes and failures? Okay, over to you, Bob. Peter.

Peter Liljedahl: 25:15

well, okay, I am, I can't read their minds, but I can tell you a little bit about potentially what's going on here. So first of all, I think the part that you are is that you were a baseball fan with exactly three days of experience and they were baseball players with like 20 years of experience, right? So this is not the first time that pitcher has given up a home run, and it is not the first time. an error has occurred. But even in the absence of errors, it's not the first time that an opponent has beaten you in a way. Right? Like, so they, they're, they're not this for the first time. Right? So, part of it is that, and we have to, we have to understand that, right? Like there is a certain psychology to this. sort of, the sort of classic. Sports psychology, and I'm talking 30, 40 years ago, sports psychology was this idea of we, we train to train, we train to compete, we train to win, right? So a novice athlete is training to training to train. They're just, they're just in the, in, in the practice, Eventually they're training to compete. And now that brings a, that's a different type of psychology, right? Because competition brings with it a certain, uh. Anxiety that isn't, doesn't exist in practice. Right. then when you get to a certain level, now you're training to win. The way we have to position this is that there is a process and there is a product. Okay? And actually, a better way to say it is that there's a process and there is a byproduct, right? So the process is what an athlete or a math student or anybody has to go through, to have a good. right? Like there's a process that you have to follow. Uh, for a student, they have to study, they have to understand, they have to be able to think critically, creatively, innovatively, flexibly, right? Like, these are all process things. There's, they're the verbs of math, right? Like these are the verbs. And that's the same thing for an athlete. An athlete has to focus on the process. Right now, part of process is practice, but when it comes to competition, the process is, and you've heard. talk about this, and you've heard coaches talk about this is like, we gotta play our game, right? We gotta stop playing their game. We gotta play our game. And this is process talk, right? This is what is your game plan? What is your race strategy? What is your, what is it that you are gonna bring to the day that's gonna allow you to execute your process? The thing that you have trained to do over and over and over again. So what do you have to do to focus in on that process, the product? Is, is, is, is really just a byproduct of that process, right? So think about that picture, that pitcher is training to throw an amazing set of pitches, right? And they're in there throwing an amazing set of pitches. That's what they can control. What they can't control is whether or not that batter is going to hit one of those pitches. Right, and you have no control over that. You have no control of what your opponent brings to the table. You have no control what the weather brings, what the, what the judges bring or the umpires bring you. You have no control over those things. All you can control is really what you can bring to the table. And if you bring your absolute best to the table, you will end up with the best possible result that your process can deliver, you can control, and, and that may be a win. It may, may not be, but, but if you bring the absolute best process to it, you will get the best result that you can possibly get.

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:06

Do you think this boils down to not focusing on the outcome. At the end of the day, it's like, just don't think about what the result is. Focus on practice and the process, and that's all you do. And that's what they're doing up there. So,

Peter Liljedahl: 29:19

It's all you can do. Right?

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:21

yeah.

Peter Liljedahl: 29:22

Much easier said than done. because. We still wanna win, right? Like, so how, so at the same time as you're trying to force your focus on your process, you're trying to suppress that desire to focus on the outcome of the product, right? Like so it's there is that it's always knocking at the door. And that is, I think, something that's really, really hard to learn. And and it comes with it with that anxiety. Everybody wants to win. Now I do want to talk a little bit about your psychology in watching these games

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:54

Oh my

Peter Liljedahl: 29:54

because you are not thinking about process. you are thinking about is product,

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:02

Right, right.

Peter Liljedahl: 30:04

right? So a fan, a fan, they're sitting there and they, and they, they just, they just want the outcome so bad.

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:12

Right. Oh my God.

Peter Liljedahl: 30:14

can empathize and sympathize with the athlete and so on and so forth. And a more sophisticated, uh, fan will understand whether an athlete is beyond their expectation, like are they having the game of their life,

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:32

Hmm.

Peter Liljedahl: 30:32

right? So like they're the ones who are sitting there going, this is amazing. Regardless of what the outcome is, they're able to revel in peak performance that they're watching from this athlete because they understand the nuances of this. And those are the people who are like, have been fans for a very long time, will understand those nuances. And as opposed to the person who is just a, sort of, hopped on the bandwagon the last week, right? They are, they're not, they're not, seeing what that, this athlete is maybe like, like performing well beyond norm. All they're seeing is that they're losing.

Vanessa Vakharia: 31:14

Right, and that's like kind of like the way fans are seeing the Jays, right? They're like, we can all see, like when you look at all the comments. No one's like, oh my God, they lost. Everyone's like, we are so proud of them. Like they started from the bottom and they're here. Like, so like people can see that. I'm actually wondering, I'm like, so who is this? When we think about math education, is this the parent sometimes? Is this the teacher sometimes who are like seeing just like they didn't get the grade. That we wanted instead of being able to be like, yeah, but hold on a second. Like, I know like I wanted them to get into the college of their choice, but also let's celebrate how far they came along the way. Right? Like being able to have that bird's eye view.

Peter Liljedahl: 31:52

Right, like, like I think you can imagine that teacher's sitting there. A parent-teacher conference going, listen, let me just tell you what an amazing improvement your child has demonstrated this last term. They have just done such amazing growth. They've, they've come to understand this. They've put in so much effort, and the parent is going like, yeah, but why are they still getting a B?

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:14

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Peter Liljedahl: 32:16

And the teacher's going, are you kidding me? This B is unbelievable, right? Like, yeah, we're still shooting for an A, but like you gotta celebrate this B, but. Because that teacher is there for every step of the way, right? Like that teacher is the coach.

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:31

I think it says so much like watching the Jays part of my big thing is I'm like, even though they lost the way we're reacting to their, not getting the outcome they want, I think culturally teaches us all how to redefine success. Like I think everyone's doing a really good job on Instagram and every article is like, we're proud of them. They exceeded expectations, they defied the odds. I think it's helping to reshape the way we see winning. Honestly. Like I know that's pretty like romantic, but I actually think it kind of is.

Peter Liljedahl: 32:59

There's actually been research done on this, on Olympic athletes. It turns out that athletes who win a bronze medal are significantly more satisfied than athletes who win a silver medal.

David Kochberg: 33:10

Hmm.

Peter Liljedahl: 33:12

and there's an interesting, there's, there's two theories behind this. Theory number one is, and it depends on the sport, but theory number one is that an athlete who wins a bronze medal won a bronze medal. The athlete who gets a silver medal lost the gold medal. In order to get a bronze medal, you have to win your last match, your last game. To get a silver medal, you have to lose your last game, right?

Vanessa Vakharia: 33:42

Huh?

Peter Liljedahl: 33:45

So if you think about a soccer tournament at the Olympics, right, like it's the gold medal match. The winner gets the gold, the loser gets the silver, but then the bronze medal match, the winner gets the bronze and the loser gets forth, So there is, there is something interesting about this psychology, right? And I, how that applies to math is, I think, interesting because what that says is, and we can compare, for example, standards based assessment or, or what I call gathering versus events based assessment, which I call point gathering, right? Like in a point gathering system, basically everybody starts with a hundred percent, and then you just lose marks as you make mistakes.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:28

Yep.

Peter Liljedahl: 34:29

like. Whereas in a data gathering paradigm, you, you, you gain grades as you demonstrate learning. So there is that sort of, I'm winning my way into this grade as opposed to I'm losing my way into this grade.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:45

I think, I mean, that is huge. I, I think what this is pointing to is that we should, we are gonna have to do an entire episode on sports versus math because there's actually so much we could be talking about, I really think everything you're saying to me is pointing to like, we've kind of made up what it means to win. We, we defined it right? And sometimes the numbers are the same, but the way we get into it in our psychology around it is different. Which kind of shows you like, like aside from being like, we won the final thing, we won the series, we won the gold. Like obviously like that's points based thing, and there's this one outcome, but this idea about bronze versus silver and the whether it's good or bad, even though you're getting the same outcome, the idea of a points based system versus a standards based system. losing your way in or winning your way in. All of these things are so psychological, which just goes to show

Peter Liljedahl: 35:32

Absolutely.

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:33

yeah, so like our definition of success really is so psychologically driven, and if we define it in a counterproductive way, we're gonna end up like stumbling along the way. You know what I mean? Like it's gonna

Peter Liljedahl: 35:43

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:43

in our way of the process, which actually ultimately is what we need to learn

Peter Liljedahl: 35:48

Right. And you know, like one of the things that is hard, you know, and I have children and I've watched them in sport, and it's, and it's challenging as a parent, right? Because I'm watching my son or my daughter compete and it's, I have zero control over what's happening. Right. And I'm, and, and this is, this was you Vanessa, this week, right? Like you had, you were, you were fully invested an outcome that you had no control over the process, Whereas the athlete, like I remember as an athlete flying home from competitions, and I hadn't maybe medalled, but I had this really warm, satisfied feeling as I'm sitting on the plane. Because, because for me, I had the race of my life. had, I had exceeded my expectation or I had performed beyond what I've ever performed at before. so. So the pro, the, the outcome didn't matter because I had done I possibly could. I'd left it all out there, and I had this amazing satisfaction that I couldn't have done better. Right. Which is a way better feeling than sitting on that plane, flying home feeling like if I only would have mm. Right.

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:13

So let's, let's connect this back because I actually think you just did that beautifully of like the idea of how do we deal with these high anxiety situations, right? And you're, and what you've just said there is kind of so poignant, right? This idea of like, you are focused, is it that you are choosing where to focus, like you are choosing to focus on that you have done something that you're really proud of the fact that you did not get some arbitrary outcome. Is that it? A part of it?

Peter Liljedahl: 37:45

So let's talk about you when you're about to go on stage, right? You're about to go on stage. How are you feeling, right? Like, I don't mean like, 'cause I, I, because I have co-presented with you, and, and we're on, and we can talk about being on stage together in front of hundreds and hundreds of people. But we can also talk about you getting on stage for performance with your band, right? Like, you nervous? Yeah. So you're nervous, but is that a bad thing? Right? So there is, it's really clear this, that, that. A little bit of nerves puts you in a heightened state, which actually leads to better performance. Okay, so no nerves like, like when you have no emotions about it, you kind of flat. A little bit of nerves, it puts you in a heightened state, better performance, too much nerves.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:41

Yeah.

Peter Liljedahl: 38:43

And now you're losing, right? Because it's a bell curve, right? So it's like you've now exceeded that peak stimulus point, and now additional stimulus is actually leading to lower performance. So what is it? What is it that you have to do to control and focus this anxiety on in the right spaces so that you don't get overstimulated? So going in for a student who is learning mathematics, you know, we don't want them to have any sort of heightened state of anxiety, but testing is an unavoidable part, and they're going to have some anxiety around that, some around that, isn't entirely a negative thing, and as long as it's controlled and focused.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:29

What are the, what are they whispering to one another when the players or the coaches can see that a player has gotten into their heads? What do they go over and say that? Because it's like, what? What is, what are they say in that moment? I'm always like, what are they talking about?

Peter Liljedahl: 39:40

Part of this may be that that manager or coach is walking out to the mound, called a time out, they're walking out to the mound. What they're saying to 'em may be completely inconsequential. What they're doing is buying this athlete time them to. To back off from the edge of that over stimulus, regain control and be able to do it. So, so, you know, it's that I don't think that pep talk is necessarily, it's not like they have some magic words that they just whisper in their ears and, and problem solved, right? It's, that's not what it is. It's about creating some time and distance for that athlete to regroup and, and then get back onto the process.

David Kochberg: 40:25

I was gonna say that to go back to like Vanessa's initial question about what is going through the mind of, let's say a pitcher out there who's just given up a home run and how, or is, so Peter, how familiar did you get with some of these players? Did you do as deep a dive on as Vanessa did on some of the actual players? Like do you know about that like 22-year-old pitcher, Yesavage. Okay, so he twice in the series, he was pitching incredibly, and then there came a point, I, I think it was game three or game four. You can tell that he was like all of a sudden getting a bit too excited and he started throwing some bad pitches. And then the Blue Jays catcher came out to the mound to give him a pep talk. So like what, yeah, exactly, like Vanessa, you're asking what are they talking about? And so it was clear what the catcher just recognized in that moment that what, and this connects to what Peter was saying before about that idea of process versus outcome. So it's interesting just to hear you, you explain it that way. 'cause that's what we witnessed watching the catcher go up to the pitcher and basically the catcher could just see that this young pitcher was like, all of a sudden in that moment, all of a sudden the, the stress of the situation hit him and he was no longer performing at his best. So though the catcher just went up, and this is what Yesavage said, I think afterwards. 'cause they, they asked him what the catcher said and, and he's just like, well, he just like told me to calm down. So it's, it makes sense. And so, because you could, 'cause yeah, the catcher recognized like. What you have to do in this situation is just do your thing. Like all those cliches of like just, you'll play your best just by like do being you and it makes sense thinking of it in this context or or putting it this way, where if he's going to try harder to be the best, that could actually like put him over the edge of the like the mental ability to actually perform at his best. So after that little intervention, like you could see, he, he kind of calmed down and, and he trusted himself. So it is really interesting to think about that and yeah, it's just, it's interesting hearing you guys talk about that in the overlap or, or the, the parallels to education because in, in sports it's truth. From the fan perspective, you see the athleticism. And so you can assume, well, these guys must be training in the gym all day long. They're in peak physical fitness, but you don't see any mental training, but there must be so much mental training that they go through. And that's what the, that's what's interesting hearing you with actual experience talking about the sports psychology.

Peter Liljedahl: 43:26

And, and so often that's what differentiates an athlete. It's not the physical, it's a mental right. So one of the things that's also important about this pitcher that is I suspect is going on so of all, it's likely that he's in a bit of a dissociated state. So he's just, he's out there just thinking about the pitch and like, and living it up and, and like loving this, like he loves baseball and he's loving this, and all of a sudden he goes, holy crap, I'm at the World Series, right? And then it's like all of a sudden he reconnects, he comes back into his body and he's just like, what is going on here? There are 60,000 fans. And then he has that moment where it's like he's present, in not the game, but the entire spectacle of it. And now he has that overwhelming moment, and then he gets back and then he has to get focused back on the process and get back into that dissociative state. Not dissociated from the game, but dissociated from the spectacle of the game. Right. And, and this is, I think one of the things that Vanessa is, also alluding to is that there is, there's actually two things going on, right? There's the game that the athletes are playing, and then there's a game that everybody is watching, and they're two separate experiences, right? They are from if, if you've ever been to a hockey game and watched those players and the way they're talking to each other and yelling to each other on the ice, you think like they are completely oblivious to the fact that the fans are all around them, right? They are in the game. That's what they're seeing. As opposed to, paying attention to the fact that there's 30,000 eyes on 'em, pairs of eyes on 'em, and that. all this noise in the stands and so on and so forth. So it's like when we talk about athletes and how they're able to focus, part of that focus comes from the fact that they're in the game. They're not in the spectacle. And, athlete that can get to that peak has to be able to, to be able to be in that dissociative state. But every once in a while, you kind of slip back and it's like, oh. Right. Like, so Vanessa, you and I can probably relate to this when we gave our talk at NCTM, right? Like there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people in the audience, but what were we thinking about? What were we focused on when we were up on stage together? Right? We were focused on what we were saying. We were focused on each other, right? Like we were in, like for us, everything about that talk was happening on the stage,

Vanessa Vakharia: 45:57

Mm-hmm.

Peter Liljedahl: 45:57

right?

Vanessa Vakharia: 45:58

Yeah.

Peter Liljedahl: 45:58

what was happening beyond the stage.

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:01

Yep.

Peter Liljedahl: 46:02

if, but if we would've paused and gone and looked out and gone, holy cow, there's someone sitting way up in the balcony and there's like, and then it's like, right, like we better not screw this up. Right?

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:14

a student on a test, right? It's like, why can they

Peter Liljedahl: 46:17

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:18

and do their thing when they're just doing their homework or they're with their friends and all of a sudden they're on a test and they freeze and it's because they're all of a sudden not in

Peter Liljedahl: 46:25

They're in the spectacle rather than in the game.

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:28

love that. The game versus the spectacle. Okay, we have to end this. This is now turning into its own episode. We can't actually have this, but the spectacle versus the game, that's a good title.

David Kochberg: 46:39

Well, that

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:40

I just wanna make sure.

David Kochberg: 46:41

from, that was from our interlude with Peter, the legend, Liljedahl,

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:47

Legend Liljedahl. That's so good.

David Kochberg: 46:50

What are your thoughts or who are we

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:51

A million things I wanted to ask, but we wanna No, I just, I, what I wanna throw in here is something that Kim said, just to wrap this up,

David Kochberg: 46:58

Sure.

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:59

he, he said so many things that are really, really interesting. But one of the things that made me think of, especially when he was talking about how he's like, we can't do anything. Like you're a fan watching, you're not playing the sport, you're anxious about the outcome. There's nothing you can do. Right. It reminds me of even being like the I, the idea of. Focus on the outcome, and we're so stressed that the J'S aren't gonna get the outcome that they wanna get and that what we want them to get, but there's nothing we can actually do because we're watching. It reminds me of what Kim Montague said about how parents often feel when they can't help their kids with math. So just let's listen to that.

Kim Montague: 47:34

I really can't stop thinking about how I went from never, ever watching a baseball game this season and literally not even knowing that there was a Canadian team in Major League baseball. So sorry about that friend. to sitting in my bed and walking around my bedroom, like pacing because I was stressed about the game. It's so funny to me how. Like that complete 180 can happen. and 100% it was because I knew that you were watching and I knew that there were other people kind of around the country watching. You had said, Hey, you should watch. Alison and I are watching. You should watch. And I kind of had to download an app and called in assistance to make that happen. And I think it's because, People I knew were doing it and loving it. And there's something about motivation there that I think completely relates to, uh, math. I tried to get my son, who's a senior to do UIL math. He did it in middle school and. You know, kind of liked it, did well at it, whatever. But then for a couple of years I tried to get him to do it in high school and he was like, man, no thanks. But this year all of his friends are doing it. And so of course he dove on it. He's happy to do it. They have the best time talking about it. and so sometimes like just motivation and so related to people that you care about. But the anxiety that happened watching this game was overwhelming. And like I said, pacing and like watching intently at every stinging pitch and like listening to what the, you know, the officials were saying. And do I agree or disagree? I didn't even know that I was going to be watching that game and I was super invested and obviously taking it to Blue Sky and I didn't wanna bother you because I knew that you were super stressed in it. And I'm thinking today about how parents feel this stress sometimes for their kids and they maybe like, don't wanna say anything to the kid because they don't wanna create additional anxiety. Like, I didn't wanna be texting you and saying like, oh my gosh, what's happening? What do you, what do you think? And are you worried? And I'm, I'm, you know, I didn't wanna pressure you about it, but that didn't relieve any of the anxiety that I was having about it. Like, I was picturing you watching and I was like, oh my gosh, is she like. Pacing also, is she losing her mind? And, but I couldn't do anything about it. Obviously I'm not playing baseball and I can't like make your stress go away. But I was stressed and thinking, okay, like take a deep breath. You're seriously up in it right now. And I couldn't because there was nothing I could do to take away any of the things that were happening. And I know that's super extreme, but I really think that that's how parents feel like. Sometimes it's because they think they're not good at math, and sometimes it's because they had negative experiences, but sometimes just that they care so much about their kid and their kid has a feeling about it and maybe they don't know what to say and they don't know how to help and they don't wanna talk about it because they're afraid they're gonna make it worse or shed light and, and make their kid more stressed than they need to be. and so then it just creates this tension for the parent, and then the tension goes back and forth to the kid. I'm really sorry that it didn't have the outcome that you were hoping for, but I know that you'll be okay and mean, I don't know, I felt a little bit like a parent who was kind of worried for you.

Vanessa Vakharia: 51:19

This honestly really makes me think so much about failure and success and the way we're defining it. I know Peter talked about that. I know part of like what Kim was saying is, you know, parents' anxiety around their kids is around whether or not the kids are getting the outcome they want, like whatever, blah, blah, blah. I feel like failure and success is such a big theme of this series because when you're playing baseball, from what I've learned, you're looking to win the game with the most amount of score, the highest score.

David Kochberg: 51:49

This was going, doing a great job up until this point. Score the most amount of runs.

Vanessa Vakharia: 51:57

Runs. Okay, there you go. Runs. That is technically the definition of success, but what we saw after the game, honestly was this incredible, I think, outpouring of people saying, we are not disappointed in you Blue Jays because you didn't score the most amount of runs. We are proud of you. Despite the fact that you didn't get the outcome that was like, you know, technically the goal of the thing. You can be disappointed that you didn't get the outcome you want without calling the whole thing awash and giving up and being like, what was the fucking point? I think those are, that's how we hold the difference is like, of course you can grieve the fact that you didn't get the outcome. You didn't get into the college you wanted. You didn't get hired for the job, you got dumped. Like of course. But you have to be able to hold that along with being like, but look at how much I've grown. Look at all of the good stuff that did happen. Look at what I'm proud of. Like I think. That's the difference because if you're gonna just be like, well, fuck it, they lost, fuck that team. Or if a, a player's gonna be like, I gave away that home run, like, I'm just gonna quit now. That's very different than being like, I'm really disappointed that happened. But that doesn't mean I can't see all of the amazing things that happen all the way and all the amazing things that are potentially to come. It's like this hope versus a, a defeat.

David Kochberg: 53:17

Yeah, and that also happens within a game or it happens within an inning. Like there's, through any given game, there's constantly failure and success back and forth and back and

Vanessa Vakharia: 53:30

Yeah.

David Kochberg: 53:30

it also depends on which team you're talk about. Like any time you're, you've got two teams playing and depending on which one you're a fan of, any given play throughout an entire game is going to either be a failure or a success depending on which side you're on. So there's constantly ups and downs and, and failures. Part of what makes sports compelling to watch as well is the human side of it. And even if they don't In this series, everyone got into it because they, was so much coverage about these guys' actual personalities, and that was what make, that's something that made it really special. That's not always the case with sports. Like you can develop these parasocial relationships with these athletes while not necessarily actually getting to know them. Like you just know their on field pers performance, With this series, especially with the Jays, people got so invested in them because they seem like such great dudes and like really nice people that care about each other. So then that makes you even want to them to win more. But then taking that to more, uh, to like a granular level, just play by, play through a game or inning by inning. look at one of those players, like, let's I say a pitcher, especially 'cause the spotlight's right on them. They are facing batter after bow batter, inning after inning over the course of this three or four hour game, and getting a bunch of strikeouts. They're also giving up a home run. Then they get back out there and they've gotta try to get another strikeout. And it's like, you're, you're winning, you're losing, you're winning, you're losing you. And ultimately you're, yeah, with in baseball for sure, but in any sport really, you're just. Your goal is ultimately to win more than you lose or to win when it counts, but you are going to lose. So this definitely connects to this whole mindset thing and like the sport, the, the psychology of performance in high pressure situations that, that we were talking about with Peter. it really connects with being able to overcome failure And this, this applies to these professional sports players, and it applies to students who are trying to master a skill or learn something. All right, if you've made it this far, because I'm editing this I get final cut and so I can't help but interject one last time and just note that Vanessa in this segment suddenly decided to eat a snack. You could imagine that might top the list of my producing pet peeves, however, she's got her own, qualms about, uh, you know, working with me. And, this was about two hours into recording this debacle of, uh, an episode. However, just like our dear Blue Jays, we persisted in the face of many mistakes on both sides, successes, failures, whatever. That's why it sounds like she's eating something. Because she is.

Vanessa Vakharia: 56:44

Did you see what one of our favorite Toronto artists Shad posted?

David Kochberg: 56:49

I did. Yes,

Vanessa Vakharia: 56:49

One of the things he said was, what matters most is what you do after the L. After the loss, I think is what L stands for.

David Kochberg: 56:57

Correct.

Vanessa Vakharia: 57:00

And when you say overcoming failure, I wonder what you mean. Is that what you mean is what you do after you don't get the outcome you want? Like you throw a pitch, the other team hits a home run. What matters is what you do after that, right? Like do you get back up there and keep going? Or do you like be like, I can't do this anymore and walk off the field? Do you give up? Like, it's like, don't you think that is what overcoming failure really means? It's like what do you do after you don't come get the outcome? You.

David Kochberg: 57:30

Yeah, for sure. And I think that that's why people become so invested in the drama of watching a sports team, because it would not be very compelling if these guys just all gave up every time they failed. Like if they, if a batter goes up to the plate and strikes out, and then he is like, well, no point really trying any more. I'll just sit the neck, the rest of the game out. Then it's like, oh. just gave up. That's pretty boring. So it's the fact that the batter goes back up there the next time and is, like, well, I'm gonna try again this time and I'm gonna try to shake

Vanessa Vakharia: 58:11

Why doesn't that happen in math class? Why doesn't that happen? So many of these kids play sports and they act like athletes, like

David Kochberg: 58:20

mm-hmm.

Vanessa Vakharia: 58:21

not giving up. Just when they strike out, what? Why doesn't it happen? I'm so curious. Like.

David Kochberg: 58:27

It could be part of just what we were talking about with Peter about the mindset training. And I think that is what is interesting about your collective work is just like he's saying professional athletes trained mentally in addition to training physically. What, like the kinds of strategies that you talk about for, for teachers to incorporate into their classroom, like mindfulness or other emotional strategies for students to build confidence in themselves and to like overcome their anxieties. That kind of training I think is what is what is missing often from the education system. Like, but then I, I think also there is the teamwork aspect like when you're playing sports, then you are part of a team. And if you're, I mean, there's lots of teams that are not very good and don't have good leadership, and the teams teammates are not supportive of each other. So like maybe there's lots of teams where if you fail, then the other guys yell at you. But in a good team, you've got teammates who are supportive of each other and are lifting each other up when they fail. You've got coaches helping you in an encouraging and supportive way and not, not like yelling at you or shaming you. And so I think that that's why that is a big reason why people got so excited about the Jays, especially because the way that they were talking about each other, the way they were, like, they were being so much nicer to each other and supportive of each other. Any of the guys who were involved in some play close to the end of the game, in which the Jays lost the World Series, have been like loudly criticized by ran various sports fans being like, it's that pitcher's fault, or it's that runner's fault for not taking a big enough lead. And then someone else is like, no, it's the third base coach's fault for not telling the runner how much of a lead. And then so you do have these people who are like nitpicking any particular thing. But that's

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:00:50

Wow.

David Kochberg: 1:00:51

before, is that. the course of a game, there's mistakes. And

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:00:56

Million.

David Kochberg: 1:00:57

yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:00:58

focus on something that happened in the first inning, like that could been the thing.

David Kochberg: 1:01:01

Well, exactly,

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:01:02

the end of the day, it's one point. Doesn't matter when the.

David Kochberg: 1:01:04

It's called a run, not a point. Um, but, uh, but yeah, so I think that that's why everyone was so enamored with this Jays team because they were so supportive. And even, even afterwards, like they're interviewing these guys in the, in the clubhouse after and, and like these guys are all bawling their eyes out and then they're, and they're, they'll ask like one of the other guys, like, what do you think of the pitcher Hoffman who gave up that game winning run. And, and the guys are like, I would, he, I would support him at any time. Like I would always put him in that situation. He's the right guy to put it in that situation. Like that time he didn't get it, but most times he would get it. They're like saying the

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:01:45

Oh my God, I love them.

David Kochberg: 1:01:47

so I, I think so bringing it back to math class, like, yeah, we don't have that kind of an atmosphere. Like usually you've got, I mean, hopefully you've got a good teacher who, I mean by a good teacher, I mean, like, hopefully your teacher is encouraging in some way and isn't like doing the opposite or, or like making a kid feel bad for doing something bad. Like that's obviously a major problem. But the, in the typical classroom, let's say like chances are the teacher's trying to make the kid feel better and help them, but, doesn't have the same, like we are all a team with a united goal of like, everyone in the class is all gonna get this stuff. Like on, on a sports team, like some people are superstars and some people are bench players, but the whole team is working on all getting to the end goal and winning together. And so you don't exactly have that in a classroom necessarily.

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:02:48

That's a really cool thought that. Individualistic versus collective nature, and again, like this has so much to do. Jenna was bringing up, you know, the idea of, theory of motivated classrooms and how one of the biggest things about motivation is, accountability. Being accountable to other people can be one of the most motivating things, right? It can help you when you fail, when you make a mistake to get back on your feet and to try again, right? That idea of like, community is another one. So like accountability and community, are two of the most powerful things when things aren't going our way that, that we can use to reel us back in. This even goes back to what Shelby was saying about excitement being conta contagious, right? When we're all in something together, or like being on the bandwagon, like all of it, like, yes, the team itself, but also us as fans. Like we keep coming up with the same thing, which is like the idea of the collective, the idea of being a part of something. The idea of something, meaning something. The idea of context being important, the idea. But like, you know, I, to wrap up, I really do wanna, I wanna play you the voice note that Allison sent me because she watched the last game with me. She watched the last two games with me. We were in Newport. We went to this bar called the Red Parrot, where no one else was watching. The first night we were the only people there, and the second night there were a few other people there. We got everyone to watch the game with us and these people could not give a fuck. They were like, I don't know, I guess like, sure, I'll cheer for the J's 'cause they're not the Dodgers. But by the end they stayed almost till the bitter end and they were, I could just tell they were all just there for me. They were there 'cause they were like, we just want this girl to like get off off the floor. Like we're really rooting for her. Like, do you know what I mean? After I cried when they lost I, we both walked home to our separate hotels and then she left me this voice note.

Alison Mello: 1:04:36

They have so much to be proud of. They didn't maybe get an A plus. They didn't get a hundred, but they still killed it, right? Like they took it as close as you could take it without getting a perfect score. Like if you think about it that way, just because they didn't get like the top grade in the class or they didn't get like a perfect score, their achievement was still outstanding, incredible. No one else in the class even came close to them, other than that one team,

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:05:06

I love that. Yeah. Like, I don't, it just, I don't know, just hearing her say that, and she's such like a warm person and such a, like, you just know she's the best teacher and just the way she talks, she's so sincere. That voice note like made me cry. Like when she left it, I was like, she's right. Is the disappointment of not getting the outcome you wanted. But I just think all of her words and the way she related it to math class were so beautiful and so perfect. You know? And that idea of like, just the, the fact that they didn't get an A plus doesn't take away from the, in what they achieved and how incredible it was. And seeing the fans' reactions to that, yes, there are other people being like, oh, like so and so lost the game, whatever. But I'm seeing so many fans being like. There's always next to you guys. We're proud of you. You know, like what you overcame. We will never forget this series. They, they made, they made like, didn't they make a bunch of world records?

David Kochberg: 1:05:59

They did break a number of records. Yes. Yeah. They said, I can't remember what they are at this point. This feels like a year

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:06:05

But they broke all these records. Like they, so they broke all these records? Yes. They didn't get the a plus. But look at all these amazing things along the way. And so many of the fans are proud of that. And I think, I think we're doing that as teachers. We're trying to really celebrate like all of these successes and like instead of focusing on the fact that our students, you know, don't get the outcome they want or their grade they want, we're trying to find ways to celebrate all the successes along the way and to show them their progress. Like breaking a world record is a great way to show someone their progress. We can also be doing that in math class by showing kids how they're breaking their own records, right? Or like how they've. Maybe didn't get the answer to a question, but they made a mistake or they, they thought about it in a way no one ever has that this teacher has ever seen before. Like, I think there's all this cool stuff we can be doing. I think it really, really makes a difference the way we, I always say, the way we react to failure teaches our students how to feel about success. And I think we're seeing that with the Jays, the way we are reacting to this quote unquote failure teaches the collective how to feel about success, how to redefine success, and all the things that the word success can mean. It doesn't just mean winning the World Series. Yes, that's one meaning of it, but it also means all these amazing things that have happened along the way,

David Kochberg: 1:07:17

It's interesting cause this is just more of an open ended conversation or you, you're just kind of thinking out loud about all this stuff, but it's,

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:07:26

Yeah.

David Kochberg: 1:07:26

would be interesting just like what are ways that you could actually bring some of this stuff into the classroom. So maybe that's just a good question to bring to, to put out to the audience and to fellow teachers is like, these are really interesting or o observations to take from baseball and try to apply it to education. So how could teachers actually do that? Like what, how could they make the classroom more like a clubhouse.

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:08:01

Oh, that's cool.

David Kochberg: 1:08:03

Thanks.

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:08:04

Really cool. And I just wanna add on a more personal note. Thank you so much to Alison Mello and Kim Montague and Jenna Laib and Shelby Strong for making this so special for me. Honestly, I was all my lonesome traveling in the US while my community back home was celebrating what was going on. And it was pretty amazing to be able to find and create that community out here. So thank you guys so much. And to everyone listening right now, we wanna know how can we turn our classrooms into a clubhouse vibe? How can we make our classrooms more like a clubhouse? You can text the podcast by clicking the link in your show notes. You can email me at vanessa@themathguru.ca. You can DM me on Instagram. And guys, never would I ever, did I ever have I ever thought that I would be recording an episode about sports, but here we are. Just proof anything is possible including a World Series win next year. So let's go Blue Jays. See you in the spring. Is that what they say? Why spring training?

David Kochberg: 1:09:08

Yeah. The spring training is when they start training for the, yeah, the, the next season will start in the springtime.

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:09:14

See you in the spring. See you in the spring, boys.