How a music studio is just like math class w/ Devon Lougheed

For the last month, Vanessa and Math Therapy producer David have been in the studio working on their band's next album, and Vanessa couldn't help observing many parallels between making music in the studio and learning math.  If you're reading this like "huh?!" ... then today's episode is a must listen!

After a day in the studio with our good friend & producer Devon Lougheed, Vanessa sat down with him to discuss:

• what risk-taking in the studio can teach us about learning math
• the difference between process and outcome
• imposter syndrome - we all feel it!
• the secret to progress - celebrate the wins, no matter the size

About Devon: (Instagram, Website)

Devon Lougheed is a JUNO-winning songwriter, producer, multi-instrumentalist, creative mad scientist and musical schemer, and co-founder of alt-rock band Altered By Mom.

Contact us:

• Vanessa Vakharia: Instagram, TikTok, Email
• Math Therapy: Text the Podcast

More Math Therapy:

• Get the book: Corwin, Amazon
• Audiobook: Audible, Spotify
• Merch store: Shop here

Transcript

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How is making music like learning math?

Devon Lougheed 0:03

Excitement over small wins goes the longest way. just a little bit of encouragement, celebrating the wins even when they're little, celebrating when they're big. You gotta celebrate the wins.

Vanessa Vakharia 0:16

Okay guys. Welcome to another episode of Math Therapy. It's me, Vanessa, I am with Devon Lougheed. Why am I with him? Who is he? Here's the deal. So basically I was like, oh shit, I've gotta record an episode for this week. What do I wanna talk about? And I was like, ugh, so hard to think because I have been in the studio for the past month recording an album with my band, Goodnight Sunrise. And Devon is our producer. The thing is, I started thinking to myself that the entire time I've been in the studio, you don't know this Devon, but I've been thinking to myself, oh my God. Being in the studio watching Devon at work as a producer is like watching a mathematician. It's like watching, our dream, like, don't get like, too, you know, like your ego, like check it, but it's like watching our dream scenario when we think about kids doing math. Because so much of what. I talk about, and my friends talk about in this space is like to be a mathematician, to be somebody who gets through and pushes through their anxiety about math, you have to be willing to take risks, to make mistakes, to like throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. And everything about recording an album is that. I actually watch you and I'm like, I don't know how you do it. We have all these songs, we bring them to Devon, and he puts them together. He's like, okay, let's try this guitar thing. Let's try this drum thing. Guys, we just put a microphone on a toilet and flushed it. So I figured for this week I was gonna interview Devon, not because like music is math in the traditional sense that we all talk about like, yes it is, but because music is math in the sense that, it requires perseverance and resilience and growth and curiosity and experimentation and all of these things that make math class so beautiful that we're trying to interject in math class. Okay. Hi. Have you ever been on a podcast about math education.

Devon Lougheed 2:00

I have never been on a podcast about math education, but so far I'm having a great time

Vanessa Vakharia 2:04

Okay. So far I've done all the talking. Okay, I am very curious. When I watch you, I see a person who is fearless in just trying shit. Like, you seem to not care that like something you do might not work out or we might have to rerecord it, for example. Is that, is that how you feel?

Devon Lougheed 2:24

I, I, think so. I mean, I think I'm just, this is kind of coming off the top of my head right now with you talking about math, but I, I feel like when I think about math, sometimes I feel like there's only one right answer and only one way to get there, and maybe that's how it feels with musical recording or with all this gear. It's like, you know, there's a right way to get the guitar sound that you want, and there's a way that things have always been done. But to me, part of the fun of being in the studio is that there kind of are no rules in a lot of ways. There can be best practices, there can be ways that people have done it before. But a lot of the fun is trying various things and maybe you find a new way to accomplish a tone or a new way to make a chorus, different things like that where experimentation and kind of free play with sounds and music and arrangement, uh, can really produce interesting results.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:21

So have you been in a scenario like, I feel like this has probably happened this week where you've tried something and you were like, oh, that did not turn out well.

Devon Lougheed 3:28

Yeah, I think a lot of times we have to try stuff just to see, and sometimes I'll have an idea or you know, you or David will have an idea and it's like, okay, well's try it. And then only by actually trying it we can realize that it was genius level idea or not that great of an idea. But then at least having tried it, now we know it wasn't that great of an idea. And so we've learned something. We come out ahead anyway.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:53

Okay, so let's like do a little like math regroup. You could say in solving a math problem, maybe you're like, I have an idea of how I'm gonna solve it. Yeah. So I'm gonna use this formula, or I'm gonna start drawing a diagram, or I'm gonna whatever. And along that path you discover, it's actually not working. It's not leading you closer to like the outcome you want. But in doing that, you have probably learned something.

Devon Lougheed 4:16

Yeah. I mean, you've eliminated a method, right? Or you could say this was not the right formula to use. Or maybe, oh look, I actually messed up the formula and I only discovered that by trying it.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:27

So here's something interesting you said, and this is what catches a lot of people and we're gonna, we're gonna solve everyone's problems right now.

Devon Lougheed 4:33

Can't wait.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:34

You said that the thing with you started right off the bat by being like, yeah. I think the thing with math is that there is usually only one answer and one way to get there.

Devon Lougheed 4:42

Yeah. Or that it seems like it, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:46

I guess the truth is there is usually one answer. There usually is only one answer. Yeah. Like if I was like, what's five plus three? There's like, we want you to probably,

Devon Lougheed 4:57

I do know answer.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:58

Okay.

Devon Lougheed 4:59

I don't wanna brag.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:59

Okay. Okay. There are many ways to get there, So I would imagine for a kid, like, let's put a kid in, like in the shoes of, they're approaching this with creativity. They're like five plus three, okay, I've gotta add these things together. I have no idea how to do it. How would like a producer approach that? Like what advice would you give to this kid? I am always a fan of trying to break stuff down into smaller steps. If it's sort of like. I mean, maybe five, five plus three is very simple, but it's like, oh, I don't understand how to add five to something, but I can add two and a three and a three. Or I can visualize, maybe I have marbles, so I'm like, oh, I can have, there's three marbles there, two marbles there. So that makes five. And then I have these other three. Uh, so I always think breaking stuff down into steps might make finding the solution at least a bit less overwhelming. 'Cause it's like maybe in math, just trying to figure out, okay, I know I don't know the answer. What. Kind of formula do I need here? Am I talking about a circle? Am I talking about, whatever. And like I'm being unfair. 'cause you're not a math teacher

Devon Lougheed 6:07

Oh, You noticed?

Vanessa Vakharia 6:08

But, but no, but, but the thing is, is that's why I am saying, if you approach this as the, you are a producer, you are a problem solver, right? Like we come

Devon Lougheed 6:17

Hundo P.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:18

We give you a song, and we say, we don't know what this lyric is, what can it be? And you're like, okay, I'm gonna try some stuff out.

Devon Lougheed 6:24

Totally.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:25

It's the same. We have five plus plus three, and you are not a math teacher. You have no idea how to do this, what quote unquote best practices are, but as a producer, how you would go about solving the problem by being like, okay, maybe I've got some marbles, maybe I can relate it to something I do know, yeah, maybe I can just try some stuff.

Devon Lougheed 6:43

Yeah. I'd be like, well, the last time I did addition, it wasn't these numbers, but this is how I did it and maybe I could use some of the knowledge with that and just roll the dice.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:53

Right. Okay.

Process vs Outcome

Vanessa Vakharia 6:54

So where do we, I'm trying to figure out where we go. Like you're talking about it in such this beautiful, lighthearted way. And part of I'm, I'm actually wondering how much it matters that there is an answer. How much that detracts from the creativity that you show in the studio where you're like, because like, let me ask you this. When you're suggesting something on a song, when you're like, okay, we're gonna play the guitar this way, or we are actually going to, um, I want you to go in and record some vocals, do you have an outcome in mind?

Devon Lougheed 7:22

Generally yes. I mean, there is a goal. And as fun as it would be to just like say, oh, you guys come into the studio for a couple weeks and we'll just see what happens. It's, you know, you want an album at the end of it, So I am kind of

Vanessa Vakharia 7:37

There is a result we want.

Devon Lougheed 7:38

There is a result, oh, there's definitely a result. But I think the trick is to make it so fun that you guys don't realize I'm pushing us towards a result.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:48

Huh.

Devon Lougheed 7:49

You just, you're like, well, we just went in and played. Didn't it just feel like we played around today?

Vanessa Vakharia 7:52

Well, what was interesting about today that I noted is, so Devon made me do this thing called scratch vocals, which means you go in and I record the vocals on all of the songs. Okay. But what he, but the thing is I was like, I get really stressed when I've gotta do vocals. I'm like, oh my God. Like

Devon Lougheed 8:08

It's an intense part.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:08

And I'm like, the vocals need to sound so good. My voice doesn't sound great. Like, and actually I get a lot of anxiety around it. And with our last song that just came out called Over You, the, the first 10 times I did those vocals, my voice kept cracking. I actually couldn't hit the notes 'cause I was so stressed about it. And only when I lit, I literally had to use like Math Therapy exercises to deescalate and go through this whole process to get myself comfortable enough to do vocals. But my body physically was not hitting notes I am capable of hitting, because I was in anxiety. So today what Devon did that was so interesting I thought, is you were like, oh, well we're just doing scratch vocals. What scratch vocals are, it means you record vocals, but we're not using them in the final album.

Devon Lougheed 8:47

It's a placeholder. You might scratch them out.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:50

You might, oh, is that why they're called that? Okay. So you're gonna, so basically you record the vocals so that they're placeholder and then we can record instruments around it. But Devon sly, I noticed you kind of slyly did this when you were like, you were like, yeah, we're just recording them as placeholders. I'm like, if they're good, we'll keep them. And I was like, sorry, what did you just say? And you were like, well, if they're good, we'll keep them. But but we don't, we don't to. I feel like, on a few of our songs, I was so un, I was like, okay, who cares that I performed them better than I,

Devon Lougheed 9:21

I think so. I think there's one at least if not two, that will use what you recorded today.

Vanessa Vakharia 9:25

Which crazy

Devon Lougheed 9:26

Because you weren't thinking about it

Vanessa Vakharia 9:27

Because I wasn't thinking about it. We were just having fun, like Devon said, there was no stress. So I actually am like, that is something in math that we call like kind of lowering the, the stakes, right? Like so often kids like know the math, but then they go to do the test and they can't do it. Just like with vocals, it's like I know the vocal part. I can't sing it if I know it's gonna be the final vocal on the song. So I'm like thinking a lot about that and wondering what, I mean, I am not expecting you to have the answer to this, but

Learning math like music - through play

Vanessa Vakharia 9:55

Well, what are some of the strategies you, because I noticed you're very skilled at deescalating musicians. What are some of the things you do?

Devon Lougheed 10:03

I think that it's really fun to find the playful aspects of whatever the task is. 'cause, uh, a lot of times,

Vanessa Vakharia 10:10

I mean, oh, okay, this is so in line with every, okay, you are

Devon Lougheed 10:13

so, yeah. I mean we did spend, like, we had a good time. We also spent three days where it's like we need rhythm guitar tracks on all of these. So it's like, how do we make forcing David to playing guitar for three days from start to finish the whole day fun. Well, we found some ways.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:31

So what way?

Devon Lougheed 10:31

You know, uh, I think exploring different tones is fun. Okay. Because it's just sometimes the monotony when it starts to feel like you're just checking off a list.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:41

Okay. This is like a worksheet, teachers who are listening right now. Yeah. Checking off a list of things.

Devon Lougheed 10:45

Maybe then it's not quite as fun. Or just shifting energy too, if something in that moment isn't working, but we need to get it, it's like, it's okay. We've got some time. So we could switch gears, try out another tone, or switch some amps or switch. Sometimes I would be like, okay, well I, I've just heard this tone so much for two hours. Let's try something else and try and keep, uh, the energy up a little bit that way. but then again, we also had to kind of focus up and get some things done. It's like, it's playtime, but at the end of the day, we do need to get things done.

Vanessa Vakharia 11:21

But we need to get things done. But that, I really like a couple things you say, I just highlight and make the connection.

Devon Lougheed 11:26

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 11:27

That idea of play is such a big thing. Research actually shows that kids, especially young kids, learn so much through play and we don't employ it enough in schools, right, so, because when you're playing, you're inflow, when you're creative, you're inflow. So that's when a lot the learning happens and it doesn't feel so like monotonous. But the other thing you said about switching up tones, it's really funny because I think about that as, yeah. So instead of like, we've gotta get addition done today in school, we're just gonna go with addition because I don't know what your math level is. Um,

Devon Lougheed 11:55

I can do most addition.

Vanessa Vakharia 11:56

Okay.

Devon Lougheed 11:57

Just kidding. Maybe, I don't know. I, I'm gonna say yes, I'm gonna be confident,

Vanessa Vakharia 12:01

but thinking about that. Switching up tone to me is a really nice metaphor of being like, and now we're gonna work on it with friends. Now we're gonna use manipulatives, or we're gonna write it down, or maybe you're gonna make a video of this concept. Or maybe, you know what, why don't you, we can sit on the carpet versus the whatever. The breaks thing, the idea of like, sometimes you gotta get stuff done and we need breaks. Remember like yesterday when we had a tense moment a little bit, we were kind of arguing about lyrics. And you were like, you know what? Let's go play some shuffleboard.

Devon Lougheed 12:28

Sometimes you gotta play shuffleboard.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:29

And it was a really chill way you said it, but it was like, yeah, it was literally like just taking the temperature down.

Devon Lougheed 12:33

and then it just is a little reset, you

Vanessa Vakharia 12:35

It's just a little reset. Okay. So I really love that.

Imposter syndrome

Vanessa Vakharia 12:38

Is there anything else that you find gives musicians anxiety, like performance anxiety? Because I do honestly think it's the same thing, that you skillfully sort of are able to walk back or like deescalate in order to get the best out of them.

Devon Lougheed 12:53

I know a lot of musicians and non-musicians as well struggle with imposter syndrome. And a big part of that is never admitting that you have imposter syndrome because then as soon as somebody thinks you have it, then you know they absolutely, but you know, the fact remains, y'all are in the studio, you're playing the stuff, you sound great, it sounds great. That must happen in math as well. If you're like, well, I knew how to solve these, but this one is hard. I don't actually know anything. I never knew it before. And so definitely just realizing that even, 'cause musicians will have horrible imposter syndrome, and then also kind of be forced to present themselves over confidently. And so they end up with a big gulf in terms of how they've been acting and talking. And like, you know, we're here to make an album, it's gonna be the Best Rock album that ever existed. And then in your head a musician will say like, accept that I'm the only person who actually is faking my whole way through this whole thing. And so just a little bit of honestly encouragement, celebrating the wins even when they're little, celebrating when they're big. We have a lot of fun in here. We make a lot of excellent stuff. And it's great to just say like, Hey, this thing we just tracked was awesome. That last take you did was awesome. You did it. You did the thing. This rocks.

Vanessa Vakharia 14:11

I have noticed that like you're, I also wanna say guys, Devon doesn't really know anything about I do any of the language I use, so I actually think it's crazy that you're saying verbatim shit that I say in my book, celebrating the wins. I have a whole chapter on that.

Devon Lougheed 14:25

Okay. You gotta celebrate the wins.

Vanessa Vakharia 14:26

But it's so interesting because it's the strategies. This is why I say like Math Therapy and the way work we do in math class is not just about the math, right? These are universal themes and how funny that it's showing up in a creative pursuit that so many people think are the opposite of math and is the exact same feelings. And I do notice you do that. Like you celebrate the wins. You're always encouraging. I feel like another thing I'll just say that I feel like you can do is you have a bit of a sense for when an artist, well, like I'll just say myself, when I'm getting stressed out, and you're able to like tap into that and either like, speak to me about it face on, or do something like, be like, why don't we just take a break, get a drink, whatever. Or you'll be like, you'll

Celebrate the wins, no matter how small

Vanessa Vakharia 15:06

you'll gimme some real talk.

Devon Lougheed 15:08

Yeah, totally.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:08

What kinds of like real talk things would you say to someone 'cause it is one of the biggest things matters.

Devon Lougheed 15:14

A hundred percent. I think it's always nice when I can identify, an objective skill or an objective reality. You know, if you are feeling bad, you're like, I didn't really sing that last one well. I'm like, well, David and I were jumping up and down and actually like we, that might be the bridge that we use. It's like, well, we liked it and then we, or I play it back. I play it back for you, like, oh, I actually really like that, that that was a neat thing. It's like shifting kind of your mental perspective on something that has passed by just being faced with other people's opinions. If everybody else is saying actually that rocked, then you can agree or somebody whose opinion you respect. If you're like, well, like Devon's here to tell me if I need to do it again because it didn't rock enough. And so if he stoked, I'm stoked. I just think like excitement over small wins goes the longest way. And so when I think if, if a student was feeling like this is something that I've never understood or like this kind of problem, this kind of math problem always gets me. How about for me long division? When I was a kid with two digits, couldn't do it. I could never do it, and I would actually just do multiplication on test until I got it. I would guess I love it until I got the right answer and it would take me forever. Um, so like long division still to this day stresses me out, but I feel like,

Vanessa Vakharia 16:40

shouldn't be in the curriculum.

Devon Lougheed 16:41

Oh, well that's, yeah, there you go. Uh, but I feel like you would come and you could say like. Okay, well look how good you are at multiplication. Look at, you did a, you did the multiplication speed test. Are those, take those outta the curriculum. Are they still in there? That's my thing. Those, uh,

Vanessa Vakharia 16:55

That's a whole other interview. And we are trying, Devon.

Devon Lougheed 16:58

Yes. Yes, we can, you can edit this You want, but speed tests for the reason that I got to identified as gifted as a young kid by starting to refuse to do them. And then when my grade one teacher asked me. Why are you turning in these speed test blank. I said "I find them pedantic".

Vanessa Vakharia 17:18

No you didn't.

Devon Lougheed 17:18

I did as a grade one So, I was a bit pedantic myself at the time.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:23

Oh my God. Devon, stop. Then you got labeled gifted?

Devon Lougheed 17:25

You so then I got to go to a special school

Vanessa Vakharia 17:27

Stop, Oh guys Stop it.

Devon Lougheed 17:31

Also, they were pedantic, I was like, they're not proving anything. They're not showing that I know anything. They're not, I just thought they were silly.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:39

Oh my God. Okay, sorry. just don't understand how that got you into a gifted school. And this shows the problem with labels, everyone like that. It's there. Done. Okay. Sorry, can we just go back You were talking about, celebrate, no, fuck, how did you get onto this?

Devon Lougheed 17:54

We were celebrating little, oh. We, we were finding evidence, undeniable evidence of excellence in related areas when somebody's stressed

Vanessa Vakharia 18:04

oh yeah. Okay. Okay. And you're talking about the multiplication. Okay. And then you went on your whole rant. Okay, so you were saying, so saying exactly. So I really like what, what did you just say there? Undeniable evidence of excellence in related areas

Devon Lougheed 18:15

in very similar related areas.

Vanessa Vakharia 18:16

I fucking love that. Yeah. You don't have to compliment the exact thing they're struggling with.

Devon Lougheed 18:21

No. No, because also, if they're not doing well at the time, you being like you're doing great is not gonna help.

Vanessa Vakharia 18:27

And then you're not building trust. Think that's part with you is if you're telling me you're doing a good job, you've now established trust with me, 'cause I know you're gonna tell me if I need to redo something. When you say, I've done a good job, I believe you. So establishing, see, I feel like this is funny, first half of the episode, I was going in one direction, but now I realize your real, the real expertise right, is like the, the guide, the coach, you are a math, you're like a a a music therapist. A music studio therapist. And so I will say one other thing. This again applies to math. You are very good at making me feel less alone and less as though the problem I'm experiencing is a me problem. So for example, if I'm like, oh my God, I just feel like the song isn't like hooky enough and like it's never gonna get played on the radio, you're so good at being like, listen, the reality is like the songs that get played, like 0.1% of songs will get played on the radio. So you don't need to think about that. It's not just you. Tell me a bit about that.

Devon Lougheed 19:22

Yeah, I think, any way of being a bit relatable or, acknowledging, like if somebody's singing, okay, here's a good example. So like, David today was singing something and the way that he was singing it, I'm like, oh man, I'm like, that's how I would sing it and how somebody helped me before. It's just like an opening of a vowel sound, and it's something we're all told and we're supposed to do as singers, but it's easy to forget.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:47

By the way, the tip is to turn an E into an A

Devon Lougheed 19:49

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:49

So instead of saying instead free, You'll hear it in our song Over You. Because Devon taught me, instead of going free, I go free. No, I don't. I

Devon Lougheed 19:59

free,

Vanessa Vakharia 19:59

free.

Devon Lougheed 20:01

Yeah. Think about how Katy Perry sings. She's doing it all the time. Okay. Or Tom, from Blink 182, if you're into the punk music, those, those folks sing quite a lot of val mods. But rather than me saying,

Vanessa Vakharia 20:13

Vowel modification

Devon Lougheed 20:14

rather than me just saying. David, you're singing this wrong. You need to use this vowel modification technique. I think it's just like coming at it by like, Hey, you know what really helped me out, that you're actually gonna love in this situation, and it's, it's just like that. It's just like fun. It's just like you do a lot of playtime, you figure out a lot of things and then it's exciting to share that knowledge

Vanessa Vakharia 20:35

And you depersonalize it and you made it seem like you were in it together. You like, you know what helped me out. You're in this together. Honestly, I feel like we could just make a handbook right now of all these tips. Yeah. I'll say one last thing, 'cause David is giving us the wrap up sign he does. 'Cause now he's the producer for once this month.

Devon Lougheed 20:51

Hey, he's been in a podcast when it's gone on too long as well, so he understands.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:56

Um, another thing that I think is really important. I'm thinking about, you know, we have students of all different skill levels in our classrooms at any given point in time and celebrating, you know, the fact that one of them could add five plus eight while the person next to them is adding 5 million plus 800. It, it might be easy to forget that they are both equally large wins for each individual, depending on context and depending where they're, and this is what I will notice, I know I'm not like even close to the best singer you've ever like produced in here. Like, do you know mean? Like right, not that we're supposed to be comparing, but I'm sure, like I, let's, let's just, I can't hit as high of a note as someone else, but if I hit something that is like my personal best or I know is good for me, you will make a deal of it as though like Celine Dion hit the highest note for her. Like, do you know what I mean? Like you're like comparing who I am now to who I was yesterday as opposed to who I am now to who else someone else is today.

Devon Lougheed 21:50

Yeah. Honestly, the other projects, everyone is at such different levels or such different points of their music.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:57

and we're using levels in

Devon Lougheed 21:59

you know, levels or like what, what different people need. They're just, all the projects are different and. I just know if some, well, my goal is if somebody has come in and we've worked on their song, they are leaving with the best version of that song and the best experience making it. And ideally some excitement and knowledge that will push them to make more music because it is, can be very unrewarding to, to pursue. and I just think that's worth trying.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:29

This is so nice. Devon, this has been so great.

Devon Lougheed 22:33

I've been having a great time. Their album, the album rips people aren't ready for it's actually so good

Vanessa Vakharia 22:38

And Devon, Devon wasn't lying that it's so unrewarding to put on music, 'Cause you know, you throw it into the ether, so you can go listen to our latest single Over You that Devon produced, and taught me how to do a vowel mod you'll hear on the final chorus, instead of saying free, I say fray.

Devon Lougheed 22:54

Yes. But it sounds, our minds know it's free.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:56

Yeah, our minds, okay. Yeah, check it out. Tell us what, text the podcast, you link is in the show notes and let us know what you think of the free versus fray. Okay. Final two questions I ask everyone. First of all, I actually, I think the listeners will probably wanna know, is not one of the questions, but like what

Devon's relationship with math

Vanessa Vakharia 23:09

kind of relationship do you have with math?

Devon Lougheed 23:11

I always loved math. I think I had two best friends who were slightly better at math than growing up, and I was slightly to a lot better at music than them. And so we did sort of find our paths that way. The math I loved, and would probably do now if I could just do it casually, was finite math In high school it was fun I just was like, oh, this is the fun math where it's like you've got imaginary numbers and you there kind of was less of a focus on the right answer and more focus on playing with these ideas about math, and I know that might not apply to like all mathematical scenarios where you are trying to get a right answer.

Vanessa Vakharia 23:54

No, but the funniest thing about what you said is is a hundred percent about a right answer. But I think you just literally proved everything you've said. There is a right answer in every finite slash data management question. What we call it now in But because it's so playful, it's like probabilities and trying to figure out like permutations and different combinations of things, you probably were feeling so much more creatively invested

Devon Lougheed 24:15

hundred

Vanessa Vakharia 24:16

the right answer wasn't throwing you off quest for it.

Devon Lougheed 24:18

Yeah. Yeah I think I agree

Vanessa Vakharia 24:19

That is very cool. And by the way, you said if you could just do it today casually, you could.

Devon Lougheed 24:23

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 24:23

You can.

Devon Lougheed 24:24

Just do data man, management.

Vanessa Vakharia 24:26

Or just like some math. We can find you some math to do.

Devon Lougheed 24:28

Just do some math,

Vanessa Vakharia 24:29

even though you're doing every, okay.

Q1

Vanessa Vakharia 24:30

Final two questions we ask everyone. Number one, what if someone was listening to this and they were like, no, this is cool. Like I totally get what you're saying, it's just like, I'm actually gonna switch it for you. What if they were like, I'm just not like a music person. Like I just couldn't, like, I can't really like do it. I can't just like make an album.

Devon Lougheed 24:47

You know, I do think everyone has a lot of potential to be a musician. And in a lot of ways, anybody can do it. I think there are like, the ways that systemic barriers and discrimination have made it harder for people to, uh, pick it up naturally. And maybe like sometimes people seem to glom onto it more naturally than others, but I don't know if that's like a biology driven thing. I think that has more to do with like, access and opportunity and that sort of thing. And so I guess like, maybe it's the same with math, I'm not sure.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:22

Would, would you be like, you know what, come into the studio and let me like, like let's make some music together.

Devon Lougheed 25:27

I think everybody should try at some point in their life. It's a very fun thing.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:31

I love it. Okay.

Q2

Vanessa Vakharia 25:32

And finally, if there was one thing you were gonna change about the way math is taught in school is, what would it be?

Devon Lougheed 25:37

Ooh, I feel like saying "how could they make it more fun" is a silly thing because I think that's always the goal of most teachers. But, thinking back, I probably liked finite because I had a teacher who was able to make it fun, given that it's now got a very boring sounding rebrand, uh, it's gone from being finite, which is actually infinite, to something with data and that's, I guess, people wanted jobs, which also makes sense. I can't be like, I'm a finite mathematician. It's like, great, well I we're at a grocery store, so, uh, yeah. So, but, but I do think, like, even in the studio, it's like I try, the more fun we have, the better the stuff is, and that's a simple thing. And so a lot of times I'm just trying to figure out what type of fun people like to have all while trying to get the album done secretly.

Vanessa Vakharia 26:26

What type of fun people like to have? I'm gonna leave us on that note. That is a beautiful call out to teachers of all types of, just try to figure out what type of fun your students like to have all the while, while secretly trying to teach the content you need to teach. I love it. Devon, thank you so much. Thank you for doing this.

Devon Lougheed 26:46

Should have our own new podcasts. You need more podcasts. Uh, just,

Vanessa Vakharia 26:51

Just hang in. Just, okay. That's the end.

Devon Lougheed 26:55

We're done.

Outtake - pedantic

David Kochberg 27:01

That was great. And my favorite part of it was when Devon used the word pedantic non ironically, because there's one song on her album where I've been 50 50, on including the word pedantic as a lyric, and now I'm, I've moved over to a hundred percent going in.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:16

What the song's about, the listeners wanna know what the song's about.

David Kochberg 27:18

Uh, sign up for the presale. Yes.