CryptoNews Podcast

#7: Lennix Lai on Bitcoin Futures and Perpetual Swaps

April 23, 2021 cryptonews.com Episode 7
CryptoNews Podcast
#7: Lennix Lai on Bitcoin Futures and Perpetual Swaps
Show Notes Transcript

Lennix Lai is the Director of Financial Markets for OKEx, the world's largest bitcoin futures trading platform.

In this conversation, we discuss:
- Bitcoin futures
- Perpetual swaps
- Servicing users in 100+ countries
- Yield farming, C2C loans
- Cross-chain bridge (K-tokens)
- Defi, NFTs
- The history of OKEx
- Token sale platforms (Jumpstart)

OKEx
- Twitter: @OKEx
- Website: okex.com
- Telegram: OKEx English

Lennix
- Twitter: @LennixOkex
- LinkedIn: Lennix Lai

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Matt Zahab:

Folks, if you like finance look no further. Today's guest is a financial wizard with over a decade of experience within the industry. This gentleman worked at JP Morgan and AIG, servicing global hedge funds and major exchanges around the world. He specialized in high frequency trading, asset management, risk management and compliance. Present day. He's the director of financial markets at OKEX one of the largest cryptocurrency exchanges on planet, I'm pleased to welcome to the cryptonews podcast, Lennix Lai. Lennix welcome to the show.

Lennix Lai:

Hey, Matt, thank you for having me. I appreciate that.

Matt Zahab:

We are also very grateful to have you on board. I am really excited for this one. In preparation for the show, I did the classic which is doing a nice long lurk of my guest, which involves a multitude of things including the classic Twitter lurk the YouTube lurk all of their socials, LinkedIn, you name it, you have a very impressive background and can speak with incredible knowledge in traditional and New World Finance being crypto. But before we get into that, if you could just tell our guests a little bit about your background a little bit about your past and how you got into crypto and blockchain that would be absolutely lovely. Oh,

Lennix Lai:

Yeah, sure. So I've been working in legacy financial industry for almost nine years, covering mostly on Economic Research, quantitative trading, high frequency trading, mostly on the secondary trading market and that's one of my expertise. And our expertise is compliance. So back in four years ago, so already back in venture back in that time, I think I was very fascinated about the idea of integrating blockchain into security trading because I think the legacy security settlement framework is a little bit too old school and it's been a little bit too now, not exactly efficient. It will be a lot more efficient if we can integrate blockchain tech into security settlement. So that gives us an idea that we would like to, I would like to work in a company that can integrate blockchain tech with finance, so with the vision to substantially improve the efficiency of financial industry. So I grabbed the opportunities to join OKEX like back in four years ago. We were starting with a tiny little team, like six people on Hong Kong office. And right now we got our 1300 globally covering the entire crypto space. It took us four years to there. We have a lot of story. But I would say it's a wonderful journey.

Matt Zahab:

You have 1300 employees now Did I hear that right?

Lennix Lai:

1300

Matt Zahab:

That is insane. Wow. So OKEX founded in 2014 I believe originally based in China and now based out of Hong Kong. I've never been to Hong Kong it's on the bucket list. The skyline looks absolutely incredible world class. Tell me if you don't mind me asking why the move from China to Hong Kong?

Lennix Lai:

Yeah, we were actually a pretty big platform in China back in 4 or five years ago, offering bitcoin for general Chinese public, for for them to buy or sell but own with local currency. Paying for your scale, we like to offer this service globally. And we think that Hong Kong is the best place because one, it's very close to China. So and secondly, Hong Kong is actually an international financial center. So naturally, they have a lot of financial expertise to improve a product. So we can easily hire a big team for financial expert and knowledge in Hong Kong to improve the product and so that we have a lot of experience, we have lots of talents in Hong Kong as well for speaking both language having international experience, international version, speaking English and Chinese at the same time. So I think we picked Hong Kong as the global hub for the entire global market. We start from there, and we build all our satellite office all over the place from Hong Kong.

Matt Zahab:

That makes total sense. One of my favorite stat that I find absolutely astonishing about OKEX is that you guys have millions of users in over, I believe it's 110 countries now, that just seems like a marketing nightmare dealing with a multitude of languages and having to leap through hoops with all these different countries in the regulations. How do you go about attracting users from different countries?

Lennix Lai:

Yes, we do. I think up to now is still a nightmare. Not just OKEX across all the others, companies as well as well. So imagine we are just a four years or five years old start up. So everything, the platform, we still have a lot to fix. But at the same time, you still need to service the growth, all kinds of different kind of users at the same time with same product globally, is always a challenge. But I think the challenge is not just some regulations, regulation is one thing obviously, and also obviously regulation in crypto, especially. Most of the countries right now, or most of the jurisdiction right now do not have a proper regulatory framework just on crypto. They've mostly taken a wait and see approaches on crypto related regulations. Some of them would like to learn about a lot more so we have to keep dialogue. At the same time for all kinds of regulators or for the places there's one challenge, obviously, another challenge would be technological stack. So it's relatively difficult to build a product that you can support all kinds of language, meaning that you have your UX, your UI you have to support and consider all kinds of taxes with all kinds of languages at the same time. And you have the responsive to the language. So when your Korean user having to rent IP visiting OKEX sites from Korea, your site has to be adapted to local language with converted to local Korea. That's another thing in products and we finally on the customer service right. So cryptocurrency is a 24 hour seven day markets we trade we open the business even January one, so we have no rest at all including the customer service support and tech stack. Right and we have to calculate the growth term for our sevens. So it pose a huge chance to just apply like us, so we have to employ a big group offer of customer service and KYC team member application team and across everywhere in all this support different timezone globally. Never an easy task.

Matt Zahab:

Of course, no, you're bang on there. One, crypto never sleeps and two, I guess that's why you gotta hire 1300 employees like it's so tough, especially being an exchange because there's so many of them out there right now that when a customer finally ends up choosing you and goes through that whole process, it's so easy for them to leave and so tough for you to keep them and without a world class customer support team tech team who's available for the customer at all times its again, it's fruitful for you. But it's extremely difficult to keep customers on board when there are so many different options and when you have exchanges offering so much to new customers to come on board and join their exchange. But on top of the millions of users in over 100 countries that OKEX offers you and the team also have hundreds of tokens available and hundreds of trading pairs and is easily one of the leading crypto exchanges by volume. Now one of the products that I'd love to get into later on is ok coin which is a brand targeted at sort of no more simple cryptocurrency exchanges and traders but before we jump into that, I'd love to get to the nitty gritty and your bread and butter, which is the Bitcoin futures trading. Now, when I read this stat online, I was like, come on, this is crazy. OKEX trades over $1.5 billion and daily futures volume that is absolute bananas. And apart from futures, you also offer margin options, perpetual swaps DeFi lending and mining services. It is a 360 degree exchange that offers everything from head to toe. Can you tell me a little bit more about the Bitcoin futures and how that turned out to be such a big success for you in the team?

Lennix Lai:

Yeah, I think in terms of volume recently we are even more because the cryptocurrency market is a lot better right now. I think we trade 5 billion USD national today in derivatives. So just to give a concept I think we're bigger than many traditional stock exchanges already but yeah, I think the bread and butter for OKEX is always the consumers from basically from day one we are one of the Pioneer on crypto derivatives like four years ago because naturally we our derivatives is a waste management tools. we serve minors before and you know that back four years ago we have a lot of Chinese miners, Bitcoin miners, I would say that will either hash the exposure on bitcoin with derivatives because Bitcoin is naturally a really really volatile asset. So it can crash within one week for 50% or even 80%. So for Bitcoin miners, they have particular worry back in four years ago on the volatility of Bitcoin, so, they need to manage the resilient and make sure the Bitcoin that they mined is managed to cover the cost, I mean, the price of the Bitcoin is managed to cover all the costs of running, operating a mining operations. So, in order to do that, they need derivative instruments like futures to hash the volatility of Bitcoin. They just need to lock in the profits to make sure they need to pay the electricity bills human overhead or anything to operatin a Bitcoin mining operation. So that is the beginning of OKEX Bitcoin futures. We know them, we understand that in this group of particular Bitcoin miners we provide instruments for them to hash the volatility of Bitcoin. That's the beginning, that's everything a beginner. So right now, because after several years of developments we got CMEA issue there, Bitcoin futures, we got a lot more cryptocurrency Bitcoin derivative exchanges right now. So we can see the volatility of Bitcoin is actually lower with the implementation of derivatives. So actually I think its an improvement for the industry as whole. We successfully drive down the overall in general volatility of Bitcoin because of the ETFs I think so right now, the bread and butter is having bitcoin futures is one. Bitcoin futures and Bitcoin perpetual swap is one of the largest traded instruments across cryptocurrency crypto industry

Matt Zahab:

Sorry to interrupt, Lennix. Can you please explain perpetual swaps to our listeners?

Lennix Lai:

Yeah, sure, no problem. So futures, so you probably might have heard of futures everywhere in non crypto area. So we got gold futures oil futures NSP futures everything related futures, is actually a risk management. You can think of like just a risk management tools for managing risk for different underlying. If you want to manage the risk for copper. We want to manage the risk for oil because you're an airline, you probably need futures, to lock in your property management, the risk just like Bitcoin. So that's right now, it has to be traded in CME, or all the other futures exchange right now. Perpetual swap is a crypto only innovation, it looks like futures having a lot of similarity with futures as well, but they don't have expiry day. So it's more like, more convenience to you for crypto retail trader for mostly speculating the prices of Bitcoin of all kinds of crypto. Its crypto only innovation, it's not particularly available on traditional finance as right now, perpetual swap is one of the most heavily traded instruments in crypto industry.

Matt Zahab:

Interesting. To explain to our listeners and in very simple terms, just because again, it's incredibly hard to wrap your head around perpetual swaps. The fiat equivalent of perpetual swaps is FX futures which would look something like if I own a business in the states and I'm trading USD euro as I need to either buy or sell euros. Let's say that I believe Joe Biden and his team are going to print another couple trillion USD, which in theory should devalue the dollar, I could lock in the futures at a present date for a desired price in order to save myself some money and try to keep some of those profits if that makes sense. That is similar to a perpetual swaps and again, a very unique case with crypto. Now, OKEX has incredible features like that for the big boy traders for the professionals very very complex system. For the average Joe's and the noobs and the rookies who want to get in and join the OKEX family, you released a platform called ok coin, which is more of a simple exchange. And I'd love to know how you guys went about bringing Okcoin to market. And tell me about the success of it.

Lennix Lai:

Oh, yeah, so the differences between OKEX and okcoin. OKEX is global platform with 100 pairs and different kinds of fancy derivative instruments. Okcoin on the other hand, is I would say it's a localized brand with its localized exchange servicing targeted regulatory regime for example, like US. It offers a simple solution for allowing US customers to buy or sell crypto in US dollar. So okcoin actually got all the licensing required by regulators and us so that they can legally accept fiat currency to buy or sell crypto or Bitcoin and they can... everyone did KYC in okcoin platform. You can deposit and trade crypto with US dollar euro and withdraw back to your bank accounts. So right now we got Okcoin and also we got okJapan as well. So OkJapan serve only Japanese customer according to Japanese regulations. We're going to expand this regulator brand, the brand everywhere, so wherever they have a proper exchange license, we will go there. We will operate our local okcoin brand to support and service local crypto traders.

Matt Zahab:

You're really big on security too. I know that's one of the biggest selling points on ok coin. While doing research for this episode, I never really knew about global server load balancing and distributed clusters until I read upon these on the OKEX website. Now, I could try to explain them to our listeners. But I would absolutely butcher that. So I will let you take a stab at this. If you could explain the importance of global server load balancing and distributed clusters in regards to security on crypto exchanges.

Lennix Lai:

Oh, yeah, I think. So operating an exchange is actually operating a marketplace. And an actual particular difficulty and marketplace, you need to maintain an orderly market at all time. But it's also very difficult because normally, you have a vote for such a big exchanges like okay yes who have 300, more like spot pairs different kinds of 100 pairs on derivatives, it's basically impossible to put everything into one matching engine its too big, it's just too big. We, there's no single matching engine that can handle all the three within all different kind of product line. So, we have t segregate, we have to split tha into different matching engin to say that one matching engin will be matching trades fo bitcoin, and other one will b matching tray for Ethereum, fo example, and other matchin engine would be matching trade for bitcoing futures, fo example, so we have to maintai hundreds of different kinds o matching engine and server a the same time. The key word i we have to make sure they oper te and communicate at the same time. That is called a low buyi g thing and making diff rent kinds of distributors clus er. Itss one of the inno ation on crypto exchange as well across the board. We had to find a way to operating 100 or even sometimes 1000s, of web of serv r on cloud. And at the same time we need to enable them to comm nicate basically simu taneously so that they understan each others at the same time That is in a technolog cal perspective, that's quite a innovation, because norm lly a stock exchanges would put ll this server into a phys cal center, physical data center with electricity and wire and st ff. But normally in crypto exchange, we don't run a physic l data center, we put server on Cloud. But at the same time, he differences between these wo design, there's physic l servers a lot easier to commun cate at the same time easily because their human overhe d but on cloud is relati ely more difficult. So what w 're talking about distri uted cluster and load balanc ng is, we have to take the te hnological perspective, we hav to let them to commun cate within each other simult neously, at really, really low latency and high throug put because we need to accept billions of trades every day, r ght? So we have allowed them t have really high throug puts and communicate with each o her each other's same time. think that is the innova ion. For us also benefit exchan es that have been built for I hink several years,

Matt Zahab:

Whoever came up with that idea deserves a raise. Wow, that sounds pretty complex and uite impressive. A couple more things that I'd like to touc on the OKEX platform before we et into some of the fun top cs, like competing with oth r exchanges crypto in China, Bit oin and NFTs and Bitcoin mi ing. One of my favorite parts ab ut OKEX probably my favorit part is the cross chain bridge nd K tokens. This is another one. Whoever is the creator, this deserves a raise and a alf. This is absolutely bril iant. Now, to my understandin , the cross Chain Bridge allo s you to transfer your crypto as ets across different blockc ains with zero loss using k okens. I've had the problem so many times where I would lov to transfer some Bitcoin o er to Ethereum if I think that here is a shitcoing that's goi g to move very quickly. And I mi ht not have any Ethereum locke and loaded ready to go and i 's a nightmare to make that hap en. K tokens are crypto assets n tive to different blockcha ns like Ethereum, and their val e is always a one to one for e ample, one BTCk being a K oken equals one BTC. Can you please explain what exactly s a cross Chain Bridge what our two tokens and how they inte twine.

Lennix Lai:

Oh, yeah, sure. So, OKEX believe in a world that we are going to having different kinds of blockchain. We don't believe that there's only one Ethereum that can support everything in the entire blockchain ecosystem. So, we think that in future the dollar that got to be born different kind of blockchain serving different kind of purpose or having targeted customers or targeted ecosystem. So, in that case, you have to find a way to communicate or transfer assets in a secure manner across different chain. So, that is one of the challenges of right now the blockchain industry. So we have to make sure that those kinds of assets sitting on one chain could be transferable to another chain and use it and then on the other chain as well. Right now is, I think is a common technological challenge in blockchain tech right now. So we think that we would probably build a bridge that allow you to transfer which is Bitcoin is sitting on Bitcoin on chain Bitcoin protocol Ethereum is sitting on Ethereum protocol, all the other Bitcoin, all the other crypto might be sitting on Ethereum or all the other chain as well on our protocol as well. So k token is basically an OKEX service for minting or like replicating the certain token, which is sitting on different kind of protocol, for example, like Ethereum protocol and converted or backed by at a one to one ratio, that'll allow you to transfer and trade and use on the other chain, you don't need to worry about losses, you don't need to worry about gas fee, because everything is secure and collateralize on a case platform first and then and then allow you to the user on the other chain so you don't need to worry about how to mint and other tokens and walk from chain a to chain B

Matt Zahab:

No gas fees is music to my ears. Heck, that's music to everyone's ears. That is up until my research which I started a couple weeks ago I would have loved to known this beforehand. Why don't you guys really go after the the marketing aspect of the K tokens? Like well why doesn't the whole crypto verse know about this or is that happening shortly?

Lennix Lai:

We are. we're taking more gradual steps because we're... the product we're still building is the aggregate is a big product called, we call it OKEX chain. The OKEX chain is a proprietary developed, the public chain by OKEX so I think we still have a lot of product features that we like to add on OKEX chain first. Its probably next month we will do a backup a better position marketing side on all the all the other aspect on the on chain features. Love that.

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Lennix Lai:

Sure. Jumpstart is one of the servers on OKEX. So the demand.... we're trying to solve problem for projects to raise fund in public for OKEX user directly. So we traditionelly we see that some, some of the problem is like, Hey, I'm a token, I'm a project, I like to I would like to raise funds, and would like to do public sales. So normally, it's quite difficult because you have to pitch all kind of offers, investor, institutional investor, private investor all kind of platform and user have to go through different kinds of route to participate, the public sales that particular token. Sometimes there, the information, on the website of the service provider, might not be legit. So its relatively difficult, it's not an easy route for general users to directly participate in public sales for certain tokens. So we think that OKEX can contribute on that front, by first do a really thorough due diligence on the tokens that are going to participate on jumpstart. So what it means is actually hey, I'm a token, I would like to raise funds on Bill Gates platform to OKEX users. So what actually go through is we have a really strong compliance team to go through all the details of the project's technological stack, the vision the product, the team, everyone has to be KYC and legal check whether the token would be considered as securities or not, we do all the dirty work for the users first, then they can probably put on the blockchain or put put on OKEX platform. And we will announce that to OKEX user, hey, we think that we finished the dillegence of certain token, this is, that is what they're going to do thats as the product they're going to solve as a solution and we're going to allow them, you're going to allow them, you're going to be allowed to participate a public sales using OKEX account. So you have to as a user, you have to be KYC first, as well, because some of the public sales and not allowed it to a lot open to certain jurisdictions right. We make sure that everyone participate in public sales are completely legitimate, and according to certain kind of legal regulations. So everyone need to be KYC. So with KYC, you allowed it to participate public sales of certain token in a safe and regulated due diligence manner. So what actually the good part is we consult the informations and do a proper due diligence for user first, to lower the risk for certain aspect and make sure everything's legal, everything's proper that before that they allowed it to be listed on OKEX. Another thing is, we don't have a lot of, we eliminate a lot of middle mans in between. Because before that, for retail for general property, that rely to engage, participate in different kind of product sales for certain token, you might be needed going through different kinds of different layer of measurement. So every middleman is a cost. So we don't want that we eliminate a big part middleman. So the general users can capture all kinds of profits, potential upside for the token itself.

Matt Zahab:

That is a platform that I wish I knew about when I got into crypto a couple years ago. It's it's always such a task, navigating through the various websites trying to find the next Best alt coin and going through that ICO process. And having something like jumpstart available would have been lovely. And one can only dream. I'd love to jump forward and get into some of the fun stuff. Now to people like myself in North America, we often hear stories about Bitcoin mining in China, and how there's no chance that any other country in the world can ever compete with China in regards to their prominence in the Bitcoin mining sector. From someone on the inside, and from someone who actually markets to Bitcoin miners with your BTC futures, and whatnot. Could you tell me a little bit more about how far ahead China really is with Bitcoin mining? And what America, Canada where I'm from, or any other country can do to get a leg up on the competition?

Lennix Lai:

Oh yeah, I think, I think Canada and US is ,I think in terms of mining operation, they're picking up really, really fast. So China is known to be or historically, is actually pretty good in all aspects to operating a mining operation. So imagine that if you're running a mining operation, you need a big area, big space, right? And you need a lot of mining equipment, to be assembly and relatively cheap for those kinds of components. So Chinai right now is actually one of the big exporter for electricity components for not just mobile phone, but all the mining equipment as well. So manufacturer, mining equipment, historically, actually is one of the apps in China as well. So you, on the other hand, you have to secure relatively cheap electricity, as well. So China is some of the space, some of the area and China expecially is having a relatively cheap electricity costs, because they are operating in renewable energy, for example, like wind power, hydro power. So you got all kinds of advantage for running and operation a mining operation in China, and they got the history as well. They're one of the really early adopter to operate a mining operation. And back in that time, like five or six, even six years ago, the government in China is actually quite open to encourage and operate a mining operations within different provinces. In China, the gap, they give tax incentive, or different kind of encouraged incentive for them to operate a mining operation locally. So that's one thing that's, I would say the historical reason that's why China mining power that dominated Bitcoin mining or proof of work and mining operation. And that's right, I think to throw that list. But right now we are seeing I mean recently, at least this year, starting from last year, we seeing a much more decentralized or the Chinese mining operators trying to be decentralized themselves to running operate their mining operation outside China. And at the same time, US based, or Canada based, or even Russia based mining operators trying to catch up. So we can see the hash power the hash rates, with representing how many miners is contributing or participating in Bitcoin mining right now is hitting record high. So which means that everyone globally is putting a lot more resources to compete for that mining reward to my bitcoin. So it's a lot more people a lot more miners globally. I think that there will be several reason. First, I would say the price of bitcoin. The price of bitcoin is actually really, really high comparatively compared to like five or six years like they render 20 times, even three times more. So the operating a mining operation is actually quite sponsored. We have to consider the cost of the mining equipment, the overhead of the of the people the space and also raise your electricity right now. So before it's not maybe it's not really feasible to operate in US Canada, which is relatively expensive, but right now with the bitcoin price right now is actually becoming economically feasible. So cost is not particularly concerned right now electricity costs even a little bit more expensive in China all the equipment is a lot more expensive in China compared China is okay right now we began to successfully get the bid the Bitcoin block reward because Bitcoin is really expensive at this particular moment. And and the on the other hand, China is actually cancelling the mining operating incentives forr running operation in miners right now. So Chinese operators think that there might be a risk to continuing meeting operating mining operation in China, so they tend to be more decentralized so they put in some of the mining operation outside China, maybe maybe some of the middle Asia, Kazakhstan, Russia, Indonesia, wherever i think so. So that's why there's one operation outside China right?

Matt Zahab:

And what will happen if Bitcoin hits you know, three four or 500k in a couple years is like are people going to be setting up mining rigs and you know, at their grandma's house like what's that going to look like?

Lennix Lai:

Oh you cannot. I think a mining operation right now is already heavily sophisticated. You have to having specialized equipment specialized to electricity management system or cooling system you have to employ a technical team to continuing making upgrading or synchronize the Bitcoin network operating up different kinds of software's at the same time and you have to secure the mining equipment is solve you have to think about as a cost. So that's why you have to constantly continue operating replacing maintaining those kinds of mining equipment. Normally you need to have a lot of mining equipment to running at the same time in order to be economically feasible to successfully win mined Bitcoin. So mining equipment in your computer or Bitcoin at your grandma place or on your garden might not be feasible because because right now is rational sophisticated at the moment

Matt Zahab:

Got to have a pro setup I love that. Let's do a couple hot take questions here I'm very grateful for your time and this has been a, this has been a very informative episode so far. And it's nighttime for me morning time for you I know you need to get your day started. Let's talk about Bitcoin and Ethereum what will happen first a Bitcoin hitting 100k or cerium heading 5k

Lennix Lai:

Ah, as a matter of fact I think it's just they will go to equally happened but maybe I think Bitcoin first hit 100k first then Ethereum follows in a short period of time. So Bitcoin is still the king of the crypto. Its representing the markets is representing the sentiment of the overall crypto market. Ethereum obviously has a lot of ecosystem has a really vibrant ecosystem in place. The competiton within each other is really really close. So with Bitcoin hitting 100k Ethereum with very likely to follow.

Matt Zahab:

If you were a university student as a new grad and you were looking to get into the crypto investing space you are a chess bet when it comes to trading not just with the old school legacy financial markets but also in crypto where the best places to learn and teach yourself how to become a prominent and successful or profitable for that matter. cryptocurrency trader.

Lennix Lai:

Yeah, for you. So just as all the other asset class stock futures or any commodities I fix, so you have to understand what you're trading and buying really in depth. So we haven't really Oh, saying that. You cannot make money beyond your knowledge. So in a sense you're making money or you're having profit according to your level of you knowledge. So I would recommend to start on bitcoin all the time because bitcoin is like the beginning of crypto. You have to endorse the beauty the design the Bitcoin, you're not talking about bitcoin price or wherever you have to understand the technology behind Bitcoin. Then you're starting to understand why people love it, the core rationale that everyone a lot of people is keeping to love Bitcoin and having more regulators paying attention to bitcoin right now. You have to understand the behind, the rationale behind then you're starting to understand the other design that back on the alternative design. For example, Ethereum, for example, or the other rest token they're trying to solve the other problem. So yeah, I will probably to ask the students to start with bitcoin or the related tack that attach to Bitcoin, then you naturally have interest to try understand to trade the other crypto. An additional piece of advice would be don't add leverage at the very beginning, before you understand that, because still, crypto is very well timed compared to stock or the other asset class. So don't add leverage until you understand what's going on.

Matt Zahab:

What he means by leverage, what Lennix means by leverage is when you see that bitcoins 3x or 5x, or 10x or if you're an absolute sicko 100x. Do not press that button unless you know exactly what you're getting into. Because if it goes for a little correction, that could be bad news bears and you could be in some very deep water. Yeah, whenever you see an x with a number in front of it, that is for chiseled vets only. Lennix, this has been nothing short of incredible. I've learned so much and I'm sure our listeners have as well. I'd love to get you on for round two. There are still so many topics that we didn't even get to touch on. But before we go where can we find you and OKEX on social media.

Lennix Lai:

Yeah, I think I have a Twitter LennixOKEX. So you can follow? I think we have other my personal Twitter that contain all the accounting information related to OKEX. Okay. Scott treasures, we have telegram that you can all follow can keep communicate all the time.

Matt Zahab:

Lovely. And folks, I will also include Lennox's personal social media handles as well as OKEXs website and social handles in the show notes, Lennix, this has been awesome. I really appreciate you jumping on and I look forward to round two. I hope you have a wonderful rest of the day as it is morning for you. Thanks again and we'll talk soon.

Lennix Lai:

Thank you. So it's a wonderful, thank you all the best.