#67: Oliver Gale on Privacy and Panther Protocol

Oliver Gale is a seasoned fintech entrepreneur, investor, CBDC inventor, and founder of multiple companies including Panther Protocol, Bitt, BaseTwo, and Elemental.

In this conversation, we discuss:
- Inspiration behind the style and music
- Beginning of crypto and blockchain career
- Privacy with Panther Protocol
- Why blockchain needs privacy
- Possibility of private NFTs
- PriFi a thing?
- zk-SNARK x Panther Protocol

Panther Protocol
Website: pantherprotocol.io
Twitter:  @ZkPanther

Oliver Gale
Twitter: @OriginalOlii

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Transcript

Matt Zahab: 0:06

Ladies and gentlemen, it's your host Matt Ahab and we have another incredible guests on top for today. This gentleman is a seasoned FinTech, entrepreneur, investor, a cbdc, inventor, and founder of multiple companies, including Panther protocol bit base to an elemental. For several years, our guest has been a leading global advocate, championing policymaking discussions and thought leadership at central banks, government entities and organizations. These include the UN International Telecommunications Union, the Commonwealth Secretariat, Caribbean, Development Bank, MIT, Columbia University and the IMF. Wow, what a track record. Present day he's a co founder and CEO of Panther protocol, an industry leader in transactional privacy protecting traders strategies. Without further ado, I'm very pleased to welcome to the crypto news podcast all over Gail Oliver Welcome to the show.

Oliver Gale: 1:02

Thanks very much Mike. that's a that's a long intro but I appreciate it is

Matt Zahab: 1:08

you know, there's there's two ways you can go about the intro I can just be like, Hey folks, we got all over, you know, boom, then you can enjoy yourself or I can snatch it up a little bit for you. So we go up the ladder. But one thing I want to start off is, you are a stylin cultural, you know, in the in the news kind of guy which is very rare for a blockchain slash crypto CEO. You also had some great tracks when I was doing research for the show. I was looking I was listening to a couple of your tracks. That's an EDM, you had some Reggae got some rap, you do it all, where's this inspiration come behind the style and the music?

Oliver Gale: 1:40

Well, the music comes from the source. So fundamentally, I look at the world from first principles of being energetic beings. And our place here on Earth being one of experience in learning and growing, and each one teach one so they say, a Rasta man told me that once so so I've gone through multiple different stages of my life. And I've been a sports player, I've been a an academic. And then in my professional career, I was a reggae artist. And then I got into hip hop and world music. And that was an expression of a couple of things. One is just creativity is like poetry or journaling. It's artists seeking connection and being connected with and the truer you are to yourself, then the better able you are to connect with other people because we're all tapping into that same foundation at the end of the day. And so, when I began getting into blockchain and Bitcoin, in 2013, it was coming from a place of similar values to what I was doing reggae music, and, and music for which is ultimately freedom. So I really disliked the subprime mortgage crisis, which when I was studying, economics and finance, in 2007 2009, it was a bookend in either side of that financial class. And so, you know, the newspapers were calling bankers banksters and all the people I was living with a university went into investment banking, or one of the big four accounting firms. And I was like, No, I was already doing music. But I was like, No, I'm definitely not going to do that. And when I was introduced to Bitcoin, for me, it was like a light bulb went off. It's like this is an opportunity to pursue freedom and to re architect the financial system and to do it in a way where we disintermediate the cartels and so like connecting values, Bob Marley to Bitcoin there's there's that common thread

Matt Zahab: 4:13

I love that absolutely love that was this resistant. Like you said it was a lightbulb moment for you, but what was sort of the catalyst that turned on that switch where you were like, wow, this really will be the next big thing crypto blockchain Bitcoin, to take over everything. What was that aha moment for you?

Oliver Gale: 4:30

It happened really fast. I I basically stayed up all night till about 3am in the morning research in Bitcoin because I was in a debate with my co founder a bit, who had been in Bitcoin a few years before me, and he was asking me whether he should sell he was up 800% Bitcoin had just passed $88 Wow. And I was like, of course you should sell you're up 100% And he was a No I don't think so. So I, I was like, Alright, cool, I'm gonna ask him like there were a lot of questions that came up. And for me, it was I began digging into the micro economics into the white paper, of course, into bitcoin talk forums and just seeing all of the proposals and realizing the bitcoins bigger than blockchain. And the real moment, so I started asking myself all of these questions, what was money? How does monetary policy function was the, you know, what are the weak points in Bitcoin? Why would it work, which was a whole education in itself. And one of the things that, for me was a moment was when I got into the elliptic curves that were used. And there's, there was an article, I think it was called Bitcoin silver bullet, and it was about the complex curve, which was used. And one of the arguments which I couldn't find a counter argument for was, Bitcoin has been released by the NSA or some government body, and it has a backdoor. And that's the nature of the game. That's what this one's all about. And the complex curve just has properties that make it very unlikely for it to have been engineered within a cryptographic research lab. And for me, it was a while satoshis really thought about fMRI. And, yeah, so that I started investing I was, when I saw that as a great, I don't have much capital, but all of its going into bitcoin. And just apply, you know, like applying creativity and tapping into that source. With this new toolkit of technology.

Matt Zahab: 6:49

That's very enlightening. And it seems like people usually go through the same path or the it's usually that one night or one weekend or sort of one week rabbit hole, you know, they finally, finally read the white paper, the white paper, watch a couple videos on it, go down the Satoshi rabbit hole, Reddit, YouTube, Twitter, you name it, and then boom, the rest takes care of itself. Fast forward to today, you and your team have created an incredible company in Panther protocol. There are a bunch of companies that we could talk about in regards to your resume, but we're gonna stick with Panther. I'm very curious to understand. When your whole privacy Boehner really came to fruition like when when were you like, it's, it's all about privacy. That's my shit, I'm gonna go head on and tackle this problem. There's so many problems in crypto. But when I was doing research for the show, I didn't know how much of a burden you know, the open ledger and blockchain like aetherium is when if I wanted to go follow a professional trader, I can see his or her every single move. You never really think about that. And I didn't really think about that incited research for the show. But going back to my question, what was it that kicked off your whole privacy Boehner, and my apologies for using the word borders just just make some progress, and

Oliver Gale: 8:05

it's all good. Again, like my first principles come from the leaders, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Bob Marley, these sort of Caribbean icons who have inspired me and been symbols of hope and freedom. And when looking at evaluating the technology, I was always interested in privacy. So we set up like a GPU, the biggest GPU mining farm in the Caribbean, the only one in the Caribbean. So it was the biggest but it was pretty big by any standards. In 2013 2014. We were mining Litecoin and dark coin, which is now dosh. And so that's where it started. I mean, I've always been an investor. I was a big investor into Manero. And I think it was late 2016, maybe early 2017. And I've always seen it as an important hedge against, like, authoritarian regimes, systemic collapse, fundamental freedoms. And so I would say I've always been aligned, but were actually the whole thing spiraled an order of magnitude deeper, was when I really got into Panther. So my co founder, and I was brilliant, Dr. Aneesh Mohamad began talking, we realized we shared values around the importance of privacy in the industry and the need to have multi chain privacy. And we thought it was a big enough problem that it would be worth dedicating time to, to address it property. And so as I dug into the whole paradigm of what privacy means it's like a multi dimensional object. And that's not even two sides to the coin. There's privacy there's pseudonymous There's anonymity, there's trust. And, and there's disclosure, all of these concepts are connected. And somewhere along my journey of getting to the distinguishing characteristics of those words, I actually read for the first time the cypherpunk Manifesto, which I know has always been, you know, related to David charm and the, the cypherpunk movement and the roots of Bitcoin itself. And examples work all of that stuff. So I always knew it like this is an important part. But when you actually read the document, it's got nothing to do with digital or electronic money. The whole cypherpunk manifesto is about privacy. And I blew my cool I I, I was reaching that point, mice in my own discovery and education. But the fundamental is that privacy is another word for sovereignty. When it comes to data, it's another word for ownership. If you don't have privacy over your data, you lose the properties of information asymmetry in the market. And you expose yourself to adversarial negotiations, whether it's an auction, its surveillance and front running, it's it can be anything really big data, machine learning, analytics, price gouging. There's, you know, the data economy. And what's generally can be classed as surveillance capitalism is what's driven. All of the mega organizations, which are now more powerful than many nation states. That is, where the world is today. And it's a very dangerous place. Because where the paradigm today is that we exist within the collective framework of nations for the most part, and some multinational organizations and, like religions, I see a danger that we actually end up living inside the construct of a man's mind, like Elon Musk, or Jeff Bezos. And whilst those guys have created incredible value for society, with automation, machine learning, and the network effects of these mega corporations, their their ability to influence how humanity evolves, is dangerous at this point, and so what we need to do is decentralized our data structures, restore privacy, which empowers people, so that we can get back into the correct democratic structure that being that empowered citizens can hold their governments to account creates a healthy balance. So all of these concepts are closely connected together. And privacy is actually about protection. And one thing I've observed is that it's a bad word until it's your privacy. So when we're talking with governments about zero knowledge, central bank digital currencies, is they want it. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Surveillance by national defense matters. Absolutely. We need zero knowledge. We need Zika, snarks and advanced cryptography to protect our, our economy and our nations. So but what about when it comes to the man and woman on the street? Do they need privacy? So there's it's a beautiful paradox. I could say a lot about it. Because ultimately, yeah, we could get pretty philosophical about the concept.

Matt Zahab: 14:11

I can tell that I can tell the wheels are just spinning inside your noggin. You could talk about this for years couldn't Yeah.

Oliver Gale: 14:19

I mean, yes. Depends on what level we talk about it on. From a very practical level, we're solving web threes, issues around private transactions and enabling infrastructure to allow zero knowledge proofs to create selective disclosures between any actors machine to machine machine, human human to human actors. And we see what we're building as being core infrastructure for not just blockchain technologies and token economies, but broadly speaking, the data transmission module, that cannon will be used to provide zero knowledge proofs on many different things.

Matt Zahab: 15:05

Man, I need not I excuse me, we need a 10 part episode just with you, Oliver. For the sake of of the shortness of this episode, I do want to hammer home the finance point. While doing research for the show you had some incredible points, you and your team had some incredible points about the future of Finance. And and you also have a very high level of vision on why blockchain needs privacy from the finance lens. Could you walk me through that? arena?

Oliver Gale: 15:31

Yeah. So when it comes to the financial industry, if you don't start with unstoppable privacy, it's not privacy, right. So you have to begin with, users have sovereignty over their own transaction records and can use them as individuals in the way that they wish to. Now, that's the that's what Mineiro enables. On z cash, z cash is a better example, because you have an opportunity right to conduct transactions publicly on z cash. Panther enables you to have that modular choice because you can transact in eath. Or you can rap the eath z eath. And transacted through a shielded pool. And you get privacy through that. Where Panther is looking at the intersection with government enterprise and the economy is well how do we find a solution where institutions can use z assets, and traders can use the assets for their transactions to protect their tokens of whatever type they are, whilst also fitting into the existing compliance regime, which is, you know, they have things like the travel rule, they have things like international sanctions, they have transaction, monetary framework. So these are all systems that are put in place to deter bad actors. And there's a rule that they play. So what Panther enables you to do is create a selective disclosure, which is a zero knowledge proof that proves that you met the condition or not. And so I have complied with all your rules, I haven't exceeded your limits and not from a sanction jurisdiction, my transaction is not raising any red flags, you don't need to know anything about it. Other than that, it has integrity. That's, that's phase one. And phase two is over the there is a red flag, so we need to actually access that data. So pi three enables the user to make a pre agreement with the service providers. It's an exchange that says if I raise flags on your system, I agree to let you see my transaction history. And so that's, that is what happens if the flags are raised. If you don't agree, don't use the service. If I walk into a bank with a bag of cash, and I want to deposit it, and they tell me, I need source of funds, Mr. Gill, and I say I don't want to give you a source of funds, then I have the option to walk out the bank. And they have the option to say, Well, sir, we're not going to provide you with service. That's the nature of the transaction. And that's what we're enabling. So

Matt Zahab: 18:24

it's Sorry to interrupt. So it's like a KYC. It's like a No, your client without actually knowing your client. It's more of a No, no, if you're a bad actor or a good actor. That's pretty much it. Right?

Oliver Gale: 18:35

Yeah. It's also but it can be, as I said, it's a generalized framework, know your credit score, know, your insurance premium got to know your tax, that it can be used for many different structures. And so we apply selective disclosures in the context of crypto transactions. And that's what we're launching on Main net this year.

Matt Zahab: 18:57

That's, that's crazy. I imagine with banks that were actually did this, they never will.

Oliver Gale: 19:03

It's not a question of if it's a question of when and they will using banks will do because, absolutely, they're going to do it because they're going to save hundreds of billions of dollars in the cost of storing their data in centralized silos. It costs like 200 US, per users. An organization who has a data breach where personally identifiable information is revealed, is exposed to a cost of $200 per head for that breach. And then to set the cyber security systems you have to put in place to protect that data is are huge as well. And so when you go to the compliance, the go to the business development department, go to the compliance department, you go to compliance and you say, it's going to be the same thing. But you don't have to store the data. The user stores it on their encrypted container. But don't worry, they pre authorize you to access it if you need it. And if you have a cyber security breach, it's not going to compromise all records. That's a win. Nothing changed, you go to the business development, or the finance department and you say, it costs you x million dollars a year 10s of millions of dollars a year, depending on the size of the organization, to secure all of this clustered siloed cluster data held in your centralized silos, let's decentralize it so that you are not liable for its custody, but still use cryptography to enable you to access it. They're making money, they're saving money. And as a matter of fact, in the European Union PSD to open banking already facilitates that. So this GDPR, which is global data protection, rights, so already the relationship in some parts of the world has fundamentally shifted to say, hold on, you don't actually own my data. I own it, your custody in it, if I want to see it, I can see it, if I want you to give it back to me, you give it back to me, if I want you to delete it, you delete it, if I want you to tell me how you use it. You show me how you use it. So we're not actually asking for legislative change. We're just applying these existing legal frameworks in markets. And we've got major attraction already with like government, large enterprises, like some of the biggest so because what we're what we're positioning is an improvement on the status quo that technology facilitates, how do you build a better world, replace old systems with new systems where the new systems are better than the old systems, you can't stand up and rail against the old system without a better solution,

Matt Zahab: 21:40

these multinational corporations and government that you speak with? I'm sure they love the product, but how scared are they about crypto and blockchain as a whole?

Oliver Gale: 21:50

Um, some of them are terrified i think is comes out. I don't know if it's necessarily the regulators that are scared. I think it's a case of do you look at what's happening as an opportunity to transform or do you see it as a threat to the status?

Matt Zahab: 22:07

Yes.

Oliver Gale: 22:08

That's so you know, that's the principle like there's no such thing as a bad economy. There's just the economy and then there's how you see it? Is it prices going down short it, the price is going up, go along. So you have to just look at the world through the lens of what's happening and respond to it. blockchain is a fantastic technology. And I'll tell you like 10 years ago, they were very scared about blockchain and crypto. These days. They see the use case, they also see that it's an unstoppable wave of innovation and sts have taken it to the next level. And so is they get on the train or be irrelevant for

Matt Zahab: 22:51

you an NF t guy

Oliver Gale: 22:52

recently you wish I jumped in a little earlier, but I fell down that rabbit hole.

Matt Zahab: 22:57

How much fun is it

Oliver Gale: 22:58

right? It's amazing dude is absolutely fantastic. And I get it from NF T's are a new frontier for freedom as well. So I'm looking into like new governance mechanisms we can apply using private NF T's By the way, Panther will be the first protocol that can enable private NF T's NF t games gonna change forever.

Matt Zahab: 23:23

While you can't just stop there, keep going. Don't give me some goods on that.

Oliver Gale: 23:28

So the token standard is different on aetherium. But our incredible team of cryptographers and engineers have told me that technically we can deploy private NF T's because the framework that we use at pantsir for shielding assets is not a one asset pool. Like if you think of something like tornado cash is one asset per pool and you need a certain amount of dye or a certain amount of eath. To create an anonymity set. panthere uses what we call a multi asset shielded pool, which means that you can have long tail fungible assets that have small contributions to that pool but still benefit from the overall liquidity within the pool. And so which is a massive solution in itself because the long tail of kryptos technically are not able to benefit from strong privacy, given the current implementations, but with multi asset shielded pools, you can do that and that can be extended towards NF Ts. And so you get privacy properties by essentially doing internal trades and swaps. Within Panter pools which reside on each layer one protocol and can be exchanged through the interchange private decks, which is our phase two. So I like having debates now with the team Should we do multi asset shielded pools? with NF Ts next Should we go straight for the interchange decks? There's something else is really cool. It's on the roadmap as well as bunch of stuff. So we were spoilt for choice right now. But the NFT is actually a pretty easy win for us. It's not going to be a huge technical undertaking. So it'd be really going to be interesting to have conversations with platforms like open sea and see if we create private art galleries.

Matt Zahab: 25:32

But that'd be so cool. Have you seen the the recent chart on open sea regarding users, new users, it's literally parabolic like it's, it's like a 85 degree, it's literally an 85 degree chart, that's almost a straight line going up. It's crazy. And then again, just building on the NF T's. It's like, you could buy some amazing coins, and support crypto organizations and communities. When you buy those coins. What do you get, you get your coins in your bag, you don't really get anything else besides that with NF T's the art, the culture, the community, like it is so much fun. I know you guys already have an incredible community, but a panther x NF T. Come on, that'd be nice level.

Oliver Gale: 26:14

We're actually I'm taking my time with it, we're gonna do some NFT drops in our telegram, which is growing at a rate right now. And but what I've told the team to do is they let's take our time, let's think about this because we have the opportunity to take a stand and build a community around the concept of privacy and freedom. And I want to make sure that all of the boxes are ticked, I want to talk to their artists and artists that want generative art, I want it to be open and inclusive, reward early participants have privacy built into it have the right values associated with it, make sure it's fair, probably build something into make donations to a cause that we think is relevant. And yeah, I mean, like, I kind of, I kind of get overexcited because Panther is being built by our venture studio called stellium. And I like sit down there and I tell the guys Yo, we're building the cipher verse. And I'm like cipher versus the NFT community that we're going to build and bootstrap through the Panther community, and it's all about privacy and freedom. And, you know, so yes, NFT world is amazing. It's also necessary, because when regulation comes into defy, which is again, the back that we're making with Panther is that it isn't happening, and that we're going to build a protocol that solves privacy in that context. And so when that happens, then art becomes the new frontier for store value. Play to earn games becomes a new frontier for value creation and closed economies. And it's going to be a whole other cycle before the regulatory framework figures out how to even think about multiple universes. And frankly, if I choose to live in a different world, that world should be sovereign

Matt Zahab: 28:15

100 percent.

Oliver Gale: 28:17

So here we are like this is there's nothing more again cypherpunk manifesto if you're any crypto, go read it. If you're into crypto, you're into privacy. This is not it's not just our mission is everyone's mission. I want my kids to live in a free world that's one of the lyrics I put in my one of the songs on my new album called the brave

Matt Zahab: 28:40

Well, we'll be bumping that too. Yeah, folks, we're gonna take a quick break here to shout out our friends at prime max PT and as soon as our ad is done, we are going to jump back and we're going to grill all the on the cipher verse and another coin another term that him and his team have coined called cry fi now on the prime x bt you know, I absolutely love these guys, I use it myself. prime x p t is an absolutely incredible team who offers a robust trading system for both beginners and professional traders that demand highly reliable market data and performance. Doesn't matter if you're a rookie or vet, you can easily design and customize layouts and widgets to best fit your trading style. primax Vt also is offering innovative products and professional trading conditions to all customers doesn't matter when 24 seven, they are ready for you. They're also offering exclusive promo for listeners of the crypto news pod after making your first deposit 50% five 0% of that first deposit will be credited to your account as a bonus that can be used as additional collateral to open positions. This promotion is only available for a month after activation. That is the promo code crypto news fifth, D flat five zero, all one word crypto News 50. To go take advantage of this offer and get some free alpha and coin from the team at prime x bt now back to the show with Oliver Oliver I must ask the term pri fi I love the term it's it's gonna be the new d fi for you was your team the one who coined it and I'd love if you could tell me a little bit about it.

Oliver Gale: 30:10

I want to say that we did coin it, but we did it. I'm not sure who did. But we're helping to make it a thing because it makes sense. So bryophyte private defy. It's a it's this is the thing about it is defy. crypto has always had some form of pseudonymity. In it is always had some form of censorship resistance in it. That's what started the conversation in the first instance. And pri fi is just putting a label on it and saying look. And really and truly You mean the message is a Why would you? Do you see BlackRock rebalancing their portfolio on a public ledger where they can be front run by the dark forests of aetherium? Because I go, and they don't know what I mean. So

Matt Zahab: 31:07

like even with that alpha, no chance.

Oliver Gale: 31:09

Nope. So it's an inevitability. And some of these more I mean, most of the volume in the crypto economy. All of the defy ecosystems are, again, pseudo anonymous, but there's so much alpha that I mean, it's an amazing thing, if you know where to find it, and you're a trader, but you can see top wallet holders, you've got Twitter bots, which are revealing what's happening, you've got cartels that are formed of miners form to front run your trades, you're at your NFT mense, whatever it is like there's just a huge, huge adversarial profit extracting game that's being played. And you one of the best examples of it is looking at the MTV cost of MTV in the Ethereum network, it's hundreds of millions of dollars a month. And so high profile is basically saying we're going to conduct d phi, but we're going to do it without broadcast in every transaction to everyone on a database that exists forever. And the reasons for that are in the short term, we want to protect our edge. And in the long term, we don't want to be surveyed and analyzed and fingerprinted as the world increasingly transitions to things like cbdcs and things like blockchain technologies which are like on their way to becoming ubiquitous. So this is a huge societal issue if you think it's bad with Facebook, monitoring your posts and advertising to you based on what you say

Matt Zahab: 32:57

that's nothing

Oliver Gale: 32:59

was nothing if we don't address this problem, so profile is and then Pantone is compatible with reg fi so everyone should be happy.

Matt Zahab: 33:09

You gotta love it. I want to talk about z k snark, that is a zero knowledge cryptography technology that's changing the world I know Panther uses it quite a bit. I know you and the team have a very loud and loud is the right word for this it should be loud stance in regards to ck snark and how it could help apple and its users and their plan update to prevent child abuse, which is a beyond a major privacy dilemma. Apple is going to scan every one of your pictures and do what they please with it. They're probably already doing it. Anyway, whenever I look on the phone on my own phone, they're probably looking at me through the front facing camera, but it is what it is. I love apple and I'm probably not going to change. Can you talk to me about how ck snark can actually be a huge catalyst of change in regards to that upcoming Apple update that's going to screw us all?

Oliver Gale: 33:59

Yeah. Yeah, I can assure. So zero knowledge proof is a proof that reveals a condition has been met without revealing underlying information about what's being proven. So you have some state like a good example would be say you use an access code to walk through a door. If you use a key card to access that door and you walk through it. You scan it on the reader, the reader authenticates the credentials on the card. Those credentials are tied to you, your whatever information is in the database that says, you know, Matt is authorized to walk down to this room. light goes green you walk through, there's no a record that you walk through that door. As if you applied zero knowledge proofs to that use case. The experience would be exactly the same you'd scan the key card Like go green walked through the door, the difference would be that you would prove that you have authorization to enter the room. That would be verified using z k snart. And you'd be able to enter the room, the database would not know and does not need to know what time you enter the room that it was you that entered the room, it just needs to know that the conditions have been met. And so we apply zero knowledge proofs in Panther towards deposits made into the multi asset shielded pools, proof of my claim certificate, I mean, Z eath, eath is held one to one in default, I want to redeem those, I submit my proof, it's valid, I can redeem them, I don't leak information on myself. So as it pertains to something like this apple issue, and this is we're actually having a conversation about applying zero knowledge proofs to this type of problem. I think Panther will be part of the solution. But it will probably also require other technologies to be built by the like, let's use this, like facial recognition, to aid machine learning driven technology at the core as scanning and reading and interpreting and then transmitting. So instead of actually having all of that information scan and then stored on a database where it's no longer in your custody, but it's now shared custody with someone like apple, you can have a an AI, scan, the photo library, if you will. Run it's checks, and then if the checks don't meet the condition, then a flag is thrown on that image, those images or videos, whatever can be exported. And then you know, you take appropriate steps. Now, the Apple users like I love Apple to sell product. You did like an update last night. I confess I didn't read it. I just accept. I stopped reading I stopped reading those terms and conditions. When I signed up to Facebook in 2000. And whatever year it was six. Like that was the you know, it was funny because when I first use the internet, I felt like we cared a lot more about our privacy 100% everyone used limbs if email addresses which didn't reveal who you were, it was like I don't want to I don't know what this is where this is stored. Today's basically we live in a world where it's like they know everything about me anyway. And so whatever was an extra thing 100% I know I'm on a tangent here but it's proven that people behave differently when they're under surveillance. So how you and I and our society actually behaves has changed from our true nature as a result of the knowledge that we're under constant surveillance

Matt Zahab: 38:09

even look at in so that's a great example like again you know, we're comparing different boats here but it's like no one posts them getting out of bed looking like shade in the morning on answer you get your makeup on, you know, you do your thing. Couple angles, make your bum look a little nicer and bigger, whatever the case may be right if you're a guy, pull up the shirt, get the cheese grater going, maybe pump up the chest like this the same thing when people have eyes on you. No one's their true self. Right? That's just like,

Oliver Gale: 38:35

Yeah, exactly. So it quantum particles to

Matt Zahab: 38:40

now you're banging on there. I do have all of you this has been absolutely incredible. We got to wrap up soon. couple more questions for you. You're a privacy guru, your privacy vet, what are some steps or actions that people can take very simply in today's world, to revamp and sort of bump up the privacy? You know, you have to get your classics like obviously, gas Facebook gas instead don't use Apple products. I love Apple, I'm never going to Android I'm always going to use it. I know they watch my remove, I don't care. You can do things like use proton mail, are there any other tips or pieces of advice that you have that aren't super mainstream?

Oliver Gale: 39:11

Probably I mean, the way I see it is the biggest, most important pieces strong password management. So get a password manager, make sure your passwords are sufficiently long. You know, remember your master password, make it secure, generate the rest of your passwords, secure your record store it because that's actually a cybersecurity threat, especially if you're holding crypto value. You're you're exposed there. So I mean, to me that's so is your data, but that's the biggest one. I like to use that that goal is identical to Google search engine and how it functions. It's just they don't store data. Brave browser is a great browser. It's almost identical to Firefox. It was sent out by the Firefox, one of the Firefox founders, except that, you know, again, as better protections against cookie tracking and stuff like that. Yeah, proton mail, you mentioned signal messenger, there's, you know, this is the thing is, where, when you look at when people use privacy is when the good looks very similar to the existing good, but then the service, but it has the properties of privacy built into it. And so it's not going to be something where we were talking about doing a private mobile network operator with a group the other day, and when we actually started to dig into all of the changes you would need to make to actually benefit from a private OS on your phone and an experience it's huge user behavior, I don't think it's realistic to expect people to change that way. I don't think that's the way that the revolution will happen. I think the revolution is going to happen by changing the data structures on the back end to save institutions money and change the relationship of where data is stored, who owns it, how you access it, that people get paid for sharing their data, that everybody like improve the economy, so I'm not trying to like our objective is not to rail against the system is to re architect the

Matt Zahab: 41:24

AWS of privacy the privacy backend that powers everything

Oliver Gale: 41:30

Yeah, well enable it Yeah, these are the one of the key building blocks is multifaceted but absolutely

Matt Zahab: 41:37

nice cool to have all over the spin incredible any questions for me before we wrap up?

Oliver Gale: 41:42

No man everything I mean I asked you where you were from and whatnot. I got that it's been a real pleasure getting on come on the call I like her the

Matt Zahab: 41:51

right thank you thank you had an absolute blast speaking to you today also shut up shout out bitpanda sent over the nice hat great company unicorn Gotta love them shout out Eric mu is still one of the best podcast episodes ever. All of our absolute pleasure I could talk to you for probably a week straight about this had an absolute blast smile on my face not in the whole time learned a shit ton. before we let you go Can you please tell our guests where they can find you and Panther on socials and online?

Oliver Gale: 42:16

Oh, right. Of course. I'm on. I'm on Twitter as original Ali o l i. Panthers on Twitter, as well as the keypad there. We're on telegram panty protocol. Communities going like crazy. Over there. panther.org is about to be our new website domain. This week, we're dropping that we are doing the website so patter.org and the protocol, the IO, and yeah, there's a public sale happening next month. So that's something maybe people should consider

Matt Zahab: 42:51

I will definitely be getting in on that public sale as well. And as always, I will include everything in the show notes. All absolute pleasure, really appreciate you jumping on and definitely gonna have me on for round two soon. Thanks. Appreciate it.

Oliver Gale: 43:03

Thank you, man,

Matt Zahab: 43:04

folks, this was the crypto news podcast what an incredible interview with Oliver Gale, co founder and CEO of Panther protocol. If you're a privacy fan, you would definitely love this episode. All he had some incredible takes and I learned a lot and I hope you did too. As always, we're dropping on Mondays and Thursdays to my team at crypto news love you guys couldn't do without you to all the fans, listeners and everyone really appreciate you we go to war for you love you to death. Stay safe out there. keep growing those bags and protect your privacy. You never know who's watching you. Bye for now. Talk soon.