#76: Jack O'Holleran on SKALE Networks, ETH and NFTs

Jack O'Holleran is the co-Founder and CEO of SKALE Networks, a multi-chain network composed of an unlimited number of secure, decentralized, high-performance ethereum blockchains.

In this conversation, we discuss:
- NFT.NYC Event
- dApps + NFTs
- Ethereum gas fees
- Play to earn (P2E)
- SKALE Labs
- Partnership with Ruby.Exchange
- SKALE x Wharton School of Business
- Maslow's hierarchy of needs

SKALE
Website: skale.network
Twitter: @SkaleNetwork
Facebook: @SkaleNetwork

Jack O'Holleran
Twitter: @jackoholleran
LinkedIn: Jack O'Holleran

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Transcript

Matt Zahab: 0:07

Ladies and gentlemen, it is your host Matt say hello, I'm back in Toronto after an incredible week at NFT NYC and we have a world class guest on top today. We have Jack O' Haller and co founder of scale labs, also CEO but we'll go with co founder for this. And now for the intro. Jack is a veteran Silicon Valley tech entrepreneur with a deep background in machine learning slash AI technologies and blockchain. His resume includes co founder of Katana, co founder of centerline and executive positions at good technology and Motorola. Oh, I remember the Flip Phone days. His first work with digital currencies was in 208. Wow, building a digital currency platform for enterprise resource allocation. He has been an active crypto investor and an evangelist for decentralized systems since early 2013. Without further ado, I'm very pleased to welcome to the pod Jack Haller and Jack Welcome on show.

Jack O'Holleran: 1:06

Pleasure to be here. Matt, thank you

Matt Zahab: 1:07

love having you on before the show, folks, Jack and I were chatting. We're one of the two guys who still got the curly hair rocking, you don't really see that you don't really see it anymore. We're just talking about how when you get out of the shower, you can't really use a towel, because then you look like a poodle. So you just got to sort of let it fly and hope for the best.

Jack O'Holleran: 1:23

Yeah, yeah, some days are good hair days. Some days are bad ones. But you know, you you just deal with it.

Matt Zahab: 1:28

And it works. But Jack, full disclosure, I'm incredibly excited to have you on the show. And I was really hoping I could meet you in New York City. I did meet a very good chunk of your team. And by the way, you and your team serve an incredible party. I forget the venue. But it was I believe the Thursday night party, and NYC at the NFT NYC event it was the scale labs party incredible venue, drinks did leave a little bit of a dent in the wallet. I think a double vodka soda was I want to say 35 bucks. But it was an incredible

Jack O'Holleran: 1:59

honor for somebody else was was paying the that

Matt Zahab: 2:05

that was a blast

Jack O'Holleran: 2:05

there the venue and then it was a Yeah, it was a really fun event. It was just nice to see so many people from different backgrounds in terms of media, entertainment, technology, all kind of coming together for NFT. Creation.

Matt Zahab: 2:19

Did you think that the NFC world would take over the city like that in mind you I've been to a pretty good amount of events. I don't think I've ever seen one group of people really dominate a world class city like that.

Jack O'Holleran: 2:30

Yeah, I think that kind of goes back to what's happening in the broader ecosystem around NF T's. So I've been working full time and blockchain and crypto since early 2017. And everyone's been waiting for the killer app. And if you'd asked me a year ago, if that would have happened in New York, I'd say no, no way. But what's happening is blockchain actually calls upon so many different practices and it can, it can support so many different industries. But NF T's are this culmination of so many different types of people and industries and creators and technologists and finance people. And it really did take the city over. And it was I think, a good a good snapshot of where the industry is right now.

Matt Zahab: 3:09

How much fun was it though? I had an absolute blast. And yeah,

Jack O'Holleran: 3:13

you know, it just phenomenal networking, meeting great people, we met so many new projects and teams that are going to be building on scale. So it's really productive. But also it's just fun, you know, just good people, good environment. Great time. It's nice to get out of, you know, the home office and and Zoom meeting world, right

Matt Zahab: 3:31

100%. It was also the first conference I've ever been to where I'd meet people, introduce myself, ask them what they do. They tell me what they do. And then go Sorry, what was your name again, because they wouldn't tell me their name. They go I can't tell you I'm a non and then they'd give me their Adnan name.

Jack O'Holleran: 3:47

There are a lot of non people there that are running a little weird right there. Like, I tell you who I am on Twitter, where I have 100,000 followers.

Matt Zahab: 3:57

Pretty Pretty bananas. I guess they don't want Janet Yellen in sec run after him and getting all those NFT cap gains. That is a story for another day. Maybe we can get into that a little bit later on. But I do want to talk about the bread and butter and that is scale labs, you and the team are moving at lightning pace, really just trailblazing a multitude of industries. But I guess your specialization would be in scalability solutions, and and daps. I'd like to talk about dabs. I hear a lot of different definitions of daps. But I'd love if you could kick this off by telling us exactly what they are and why you in the team are tackling them.

Jack O'Holleran: 4:31

Yeah, so I think most people are probably familiar with applications, right? And ADAPT is a decentralized application. What that means is an application that's using a blockchain or cryptocurrency as part of its framework, and at its core, what you have is a decentralized product. And that brings a lot of values in terms of like a true ownership to users, better profit sharing governance, better data tracking, like for example, Facebook is not a DAP. It is purely an app and, and, you know Mark Zuckerberg lives to track your data on the metaverse or the social networks, whatever it is. That's it's not a DAP.

Matt Zahab: 5:10

So Jack, you guys are really going after daps. But tell me, why are they so important? And why is every crypto organization going after daps? Right now?

Jack O'Holleran: 5:18

Yeah. So when you think about daps, I think it's good to think about the different categories. So one would be NF T's. And if T's are huge category, web three is another category. Another category is decentralized, finance, or Defy. And so all of these different categories, what they what they really aim to do is give ownership and power and back to users as well as bringing other features like immutability. And, you know, security and, and just like user ownership as opposed to centralized ownership, and control. So that's, that's the short of it. And it's daps live across a number of categories. And we're really seeing high growth in NF T's right now, as well as defy and web three actually is just right around the corner.

Matt Zahab: 6:03

Most apps and I could be wrong here. But there's no other network that has more daps and Aetherium. Right.

Jack O'Holleran: 6:09

Yeah, that's very true. So Aetherium, what I would say is, there's not a network in the world that has even a fraction of the developers building that are building on Aetherium. And developers end up with what do they build, they build daps. And so if 95% of the smart contract developers or blockchain developers are on Aetherium pool, it's really clear then, where the applications will be in and scale I say, is incredibly proud and happy to support a theorem and be part of the Etherium ecosystem, while also being able to run in hybrid adjacent network where Aetherium and scale work together, to to support each other,

Matt Zahab: 6:46

the big buzz around Aetherium is always we'll also how about that ens drop. That was, that was pretty bananas. We'll get into that later on. But going back to Aetherium as a whole, the gas fees third killer, anytime I want to buy or sell an NF t do anything within Web three, I just shut it here, because I'm spending 150 US Dollars most of the time, just to perform simple action that should cost literally one 100 of that, if not less, what can we look forward to moving forward to you know, to not have to pay 150 bucks a pop when transacting on the Ethereum network.

Jack O'Holleran: 7:18

Yeah, and so I'll give I'll kind of let people understand the flow of how a conversation works. So I'll be talking to a developer who says, you know, I'm looking at going and leaving Aetherium, I just can't deal with gas fees, I want to go to maybe salona, maybe polka dot and, you know, but I have to rewrite my smart contracts and, and we say, hey, well, you can build on scale. So when you build on Aetherium, two, you connect a scale chain to your Aetherium application. And then your end users have zero fees for transactions. And the transactions are lightning fast, it's second transaction with for second full finality. And so all that pain that you had from dealing with Aetherium for your end users goes away. But the stake of the scale network lives on Aetherium. So Aetherium, is actually protecting your scale chain by holding the proof of stake of the scale network on it. So the network's work together. And you get the best of both worlds of having the big powerful security of the Ethereum network supporting scale, and the speed of the scale network, and low cost elements supporting your end users.

Matt Zahab: 8:23

So just I can understand this a little bit clearer. And my apologies, if I'm not too clear with this question, but who ends up absorbing that traditional, you know, $100 plus transaction fee? Is it scale? Who absorbs it? Is it just non existent? Because of your technology? Like how does that work? Walk me through that.

Jack O'Holleran: 8:39

Yeah. So you could think of blockchains as just, you know, let's pretend they're rideshare platforms, let's pretend it's Uber, or Lyft. And there's only a certain amount of cars, these cars can drive people in the real world, but in the blockchain world they do, what they do is perform transactions or execute smart contracts. Now, if there's 1000, people that want to ride or in this case, you know, do a transaction, and there's only 500 drivers will there surge pricing to get things done quickly. Or if you don't want to have surge pricing, you'd be waiting forever, potentially never get a ride. And so what scale does is scale just has a lot more cars on the road than Aetherium. Because it's a the structure of how the blockchain is built. And so instead of having just 100 cars to scale network could have 1000 cars, or 10,000 cars or 100,000 cars. And there's actually a pricing component that incentivizes more people to set up servers, and it just creates more and more space in the network. And so it's really a supply demand issue. And so on scale, if there were double the demand that there were servers, well, it would be incredibly expensive to run things on scale too, because you have to pay for the you know, the chains have to be paid for and scale tokens, but because of the economic model, it makes it financially feasible, because they're all Be more the right amount of cars to writers or in this case computers, to people that want to run transactions or smart contracts.

Matt Zahab: 10:08

Pardon my French, but I fucking love that. That is that's just good shit right there. That's what we need. We need more analogies where you can sort of you know, dumb it down maybe dumb to wrong word but just simplified is the right word. You know cuz I understand that I take numbers all the time. Thank you for that. Do you have any other Gemini other world class analogies for the folks at home?

Jack O'Holleran: 10:25

Yeah, what else is blockchains really are it's just a matter of physics and I love being able to equate these these analogies into real world dynamics that really are actually technically accurate. Now, they're, they're different, they're entire structurally different. But when you look at the, you know, the components that cause the friction and the supply demand issues will, that is a you know, you know, that's these things are accurate. Another one would be if you look at a theorem, it's one big traffic lane. And all these cars want to get on the lane. Scale gives each application its own, you know, H O, V, or speed lane. And so let's say I have a defy application, well, I literally have my own lane, and all my cars go 100 miles an hour in it. And then there's an NFT application, they get their own lane, and they go 100 miles an hour, you know, and let's say you want to those users want to go back to the Etherium main net, well, they've got to go on the off ramp, and it takes some time, they've got to pay a toll fee. That's another analogy of how scale works in concert with Aetherium. that I think makes a lot of sense for people. And that's accessible to people who aren't, you know, digging into ones and zeros all day.

Matt Zahab: 11:29

Love that. Well said, I'd love to shift the Convo a bit over to NF T's. And we sort of started with that. And we're definitely not going to finish with it. But it is a sexy topic. And it would it would be ill advised for us to not cover it. Nf T's is a whole Mineski very broad question. Why are they taking over the world? Why is everyone getting into them? And where do you sort of see the future then going?

Jack O'Holleran: 11:50

Yeah, so NF T's today have captured a lot of attention the same way. Tokens capture the attention of people in 2018 2017. There's a lot of speculative drive that's driving people there. But just like in 2017, or 2018. With tokens, there's a ton of demand and potential. So what we're seeing I think, is the early days where there's probably a little over buying, but it's still at its core very real. And where NF T's will add value will be less about let me buy this thing and flip it in a week and make a bunch of money or Hottel it make a bunch of money. It's how can I how can this NFT actually do something for me. And it's the culmination of art and utility that excites me about NF T's. So I can have a digital collectible. That also gets me a backstage pass at a concert. Okay, I can have a digital collectible that lets me be a part of an exclusive group of people, and a discord channel that gives me access to inside information that lets me actually be part of a Dao or community that's governed with tokens. So NF T's are valuable for all types of businesses. They're also valuable for artists, they're valuable for gaming, they're valuable for enterprises. It's really just getting started. But there will be some friction as you know, as long the growth path just like we saw tokens.

Matt Zahab: 13:07

Very true. What one thing that I'm always curious of and I have a lot of my non crypto friends always asked me this question. I have a couple hot takes, but I'd much rather hear yours. What traditional industry do you think and if teats will disrupt the hardest for me, I think it's the music industry. But I'd love to hear what you think it'll be I think gaming is where NFT is going to have the biggest initial impact. I actually think disruption will not happen in gaming for a while, because games are recognizing the value of dropping down there are walled gardens and borders, because they can actually monetize outside of their walled gardens before, if I have a video game I couldn't I didn't want people to build a trade outside of my my, you know, my zone that I protect is known. But when you can build royalties into NF T's and whether they're sold in open C or somewhere else, you still get money as a game developer or you know, triple a gaming company, then you're going to embrace that, right? You actually grow your ability to sell will not decrease, not opening yourself up to disintermediation. The music industry, however, opens yourself up entirely to artists being able to completely circumvent studios. Why do you need a studio when you can build stuff, push it out on platforms like audience have, you know digital images and digital collectibles affiliated that have music but also rights to you know, going to concerts? Right? So the things that the artists make money artists make money off concerts, not the labels. So the labels your to your point, I think that will be the first biggest point of disruption. Yeah, it's that was again, good point on your into talking about disruption versus sort of mass adoption. And going back to gaming though, do you think and full disclosure, my team is is working on an incredible project right now. I'll plug that later on. But we are building a massive nfcu ecosystem and the economy of the Metaverse and played around gaming is the bread and butter of that, but what sort of catalysts to growth are what dominoes need to fall for play to earn to become as popular as the free to play model?

Jack O'Holleran: 15:10

Yeah, play to earn is phenomenal because it's it's plays directly connected to liquidity. And, and that is where we will see disruption in gaming is if I can go play a blockchain game that, frankly, might not be anywhere near as fun for me. But I'm a grinder that's, you know, that's just putting hours in making money. And there's actually, like, a huge investment vehicle I was just brought to my attention this week, where there's a company that is employing, like, 1000 people in Southeast Asia, to literally play games for them. And and, you know, it's again, I think that kind of takes away that centralizes the decentralization I think the one cool thing is just people in those communities playing and actually paying their rent directly through the money they earn. So So hey, play to earn, I think it's awesome you're working on that is one of the biggest categories I see in the future for scale. Because play to earn, when you can play and not have horrible gas fees, and you can have instant finality and smooth seamless trading with zero cost minting zero cost transactions. There's just so much more yield to be gained. For people who are doing play to earn

Matt Zahab: 16:29

again, want to touch on gas fees one more time. Is there anything that can happen? Everyone talks about all the new eath updates? Like Will we ever see feasible gas prices again? Are we just hooked forever?

Jack O'Holleran: 16:38

No, we we won't. But Aetherium if you look at the strategy, the strategy has changed for me to to be a foundational layer and open itself up to scaling platforms like scale and, you know, roll up solutions layer two world. Okay. So if you look at what scale does is, and that was we kind of we saw that happening from a long time ago, the vision to completely transform Aetherium into something new. That would be the world's fastest single chain, I think is just not realistic. Because Because no matter how fast is it's still one monolithic database. Yeah, it's one there's only still a fixed amount of riders. And you know, what if Uber just had 100 cars, and they tried to serve the world with that, well, there's so much demand for Aetherium that we need other blockchains supporting Aetherium that are that are value accretive to Aetherium. That's the other thing about scale, it's incentive aligned with Aetherium. When you use scale, if you stake scale, you have to pay a theorem. If you claim staking rewards, you have to pay Aetherium gas fees. If you want to run a scale chain, you have to pay scale tokens on the Etherium main net. And so there's actually an aligned incentive model a revenue share that adds value to a theorem and sort of sucks it away. Which is another unique advantage of the scale network over you know other blockchain scaling platforms that are built trying to connect to Aetherium

Matt Zahab: 17:59

Jack we're gonna jump back into scale after a quick break to give a massive shout out to the sponsor the show prime x PT, folks I've been using prime x BT for a while now and I absolutely love it as they offer a robust trading system for both beginners and professional traders doesn't matter if you're a rookie or vet. Primary PT is the spot for you. You can easily design and customize layouts and widgets to best fit your trading style and products beauty is always offering innovative products and professional trading conditions to all their customers. If you do love the show, we have a treat for you prime x vt is running an exclusive promotion for listeners of the pod after making your first deposit 50% That is five 0% of that first deposit will be credited to your account as a bonus that can be used as additional collateral to open positions. This promotion is available for a month after activation and will be the boost you need to get the hang of trading quickly and efficiently. Again, that is promo code crypto news five zero all one word crypto news five zero to take advantage of this offer as cryptic as five zero to receive five zero 50% of your deposit credit to your trading account. Now back to the show with Chuck. I always asked my guests this and it is a bit of a you know, I don't really know how to explain this question. Maybe pain in the ass is the best word but I do love the elevator pitch question. 30 seconds you and I are an elevator we got going up to 400 Maybe not 104 60 Hit me 30 seconds. What exactly does scaled

Jack O'Holleran: 19:24

scale enables blockchain applications to run in a fast cost efficient manner? What the goal of blockchain is to deliver is to reach billions of users scale to my knowledge is the only blockchain scalability platform that can help Aetherium reach a billion daily active users

Matt Zahab: 19:44

I think that's 14 seconds well done that that'll get you paid a plus right there. I love it.

Jack O'Holleran: 19:48

Okay, man, I've got I've got multiple levels left. I would say though, just one thing to add is the missing ingredient for blockchain has been user access perience we need to have a good user experience. And I could tell you all the bells and whistles about scale tech. But what it all comes down to is scale enables a phenomenal user experience. And that comes down to speed. And cost effectiveness,

Matt Zahab: 20:14

it is one of the most daunting, I don't think I've ever been in an industry where the UX is more daunting. Like imagine, imagine being a, you know, again, I'll use my parents as an example. I'm not shitting on them on the show, they're the best people on the planet, but my parents trying to you know, buy an NF T and onboard funds to Metamask like, it's just it's so difficult, and it's so scary, like having to go into ether scan, make sure everything's okay, up in your gas, if there's too much like, Man, oh, man, it's real.

Jack O'Holleran: 20:43

Well, I'll be laughing about this in five years saying, like, you remember all that stuff, we had to do like connect ledger to meta mask, and I had to, you know, like, speed up my like my transaction because it was stuck. And, you know, there's just so many, these problems will go away, that right now they end up being a nice kind of barrier to entry. We're early adopters, and people who figure these things out, can actually, you know, have some some market arbitrage. So it ends up, you know, ends up creating some interesting dynamics to for people who, who want to go, you know, solve solve problems.

Matt Zahab: 21:15

Yes. Market arbitrage. That's a great word there. And that is very true. I often wonder if, if those in charge, I know, it's a very broad topic, or at least buckets of put people in, but I wonder if those in charge, have not really put too much effort into into really making the UX a lot easier and sexier? Because, you know, it really does keep that fence up? Right?

Jack O'Holleran: 21:36

Yeah, you know, I'll say there's definitely people who, who is, in a far, you know, there are people who care far more just about making security higher, and not lowering the barrier to entry, because I think they do enjoy being the early adopters. And the only people that know how to use these things, and they get access first, and, but I will tell you, from the builders in the space, people like myself, and there's a lot of people like me, we are absolutely dedicated to bringing blockchain to more people. And it just brings so much more value to people's lives. What you're doing is you're going and you're giving power to people, and you're letting them and and application builders to build products that better support users and their rights, and also shares profit. So it's just it will have a phenomenal impact on society. But we do need to make sure that more than 50,000 people are able to use these systems.

Matt Zahab: 22:30

Yes, very true. I'd love to move forward and talk about some of the incredible partnerships that scale has formed. Really, you guys have been making some crazy moves over the last couple of months to Ruby dot exchange, the NFT powered automated market maker now that was that was quite the deal there. Why did you why did you partner with them?

Jack O'Holleran: 22:49

Yeah, good. Get ready for this is going to be absolutely massive. This is one of the most phenomenal teams I've met in blockchain. They've got incredible venture backing behind them. And they're what they're doing is they're actually taking the best of the automated market maker or decentralized exchange platform. And they're combining it with new features that integrate NF T's and downvoting structures. And so what you're seeing is actually, let's say you took you know, you took 10 of the smartest people in the world and defy and you know, these this, I'm not saying they're the absolute top 10 smartest but there have a group of the top echelon you take 10 smart people of the top, you know 150 People that work in defy and you say hey, you have an opportunity today to reinvent take what take what worked before and fix a broken problems and do it on a platform that's fast and cost effective. And what you get out of that as you get Ruby exchange so just you know get ready it's launching soon. I'm pumped and it's going to be you know, this incredible launch of the best of define NFT together

Matt Zahab: 23:58

that's quite the praise How can someone like me get in early are they going to release a token or something other like

Jack O'Holleran: 24:02

you know, it's it's a fully decentralized anonymous project and they're so please join their their social channels. And there will be like, like many of these it's a fair launch and if you get in the discard you get in the group early, you'll have first access to go and and you will beat the people who aren't paying attention. I'll tell you that

Matt Zahab: 24:22

got it. Love it. Another incredible partnership, Wharton School of Business, world class, criminal cram school, first flagship online program and economics of blockchain and digital assets. That is very special. But now I got to ask because I know a lot of VCs do this, especially in Silicon Valley, where where they will partner with Stanford and other you know, top tier schools, and then just funnel all the 99 Plus world class talent into them. Are you guys getting any any talent from this?

Jack O'Holleran: 24:51

Yeah, so what I will say is we we were there's I think seven partners or but only three of those are blockchain projects and skill was incredible. Pleased to be, you know, just honored. It was a huge honor. I mean, Wharton is always number one, two or three in terms of business school, right? It's our Wharton, Stanford and Harvard global rankings. And it, I'm just, you know, we're every year 1000s of top tier students will be educated on scale, and the dynamics of blockchain scaling. So what I think it's going to bring a huge flood of talent into the scale network, but also educate real businesses on how scale functions and but again, it's just an honor really thankful to the people at Wharton for selecting scale to be part of that.

Matt Zahab: 25:35

That is, that is really, truly an honor. We are starting a segment on the show called the hot take factory. I also I pardon me, ru wants to rename the show to the hot take factory. But nonetheless,

Jack O'Holleran: 25:48

that's cool.

Matt Zahab: 25:49

We need we need a hot take that is going to be on the front page of crypto news.com, one of the leading crypto news outlets in the world. What do you got for me something that Jack believes in that no one else does, or the very few people do

Jack O'Holleran: 26:03

90% of the company's major global companies today will be using NF T's in one way shape or form within 18 months from now,

Matt Zahab: 26:15

that quick

Jack O'Holleran: 26:15

that quick? Not 12 months, 18 months. That's my that's my hot take

Matt Zahab: 26:19

why that extra six? You think that that'll

Jack O'Holleran: 26:21

I just think that it's you know, I think to get to that level, if I said 50, you know, and the other thing is these things go and then they then they hit parallel. Okay. And so what, you know, I think if the number were 30%, it's still kind of in that number. It's going to hockey stick. So what what we're saying what we're seeing right now is this huge growth, that's going to keep growing and growing steady and like spot and up for the next year. And then I think, then in a year, then then in six months, it's gonna go from like, 5% of the companies to 90% in like six months. That's just how you see technology adoption, adoption curves work.

Matt Zahab: 26:58

Now it's true.

Jack O'Holleran: 26:59

I was gonna say 12 months, but I felt like a little too aggressive. To be honest.

Matt Zahab: 27:05

I still love the heartache. I also love when people bring up the hockey stick reference because born and raised in Toronto played hockey my whole life. So my favorite sport, you gotta love it. For those at home, world class, underrated sport, the only reason why it really hasn't hit mass adoption is one because you can't play ice hockey anywhere in the world. There's more hot countries and cold countries into it's bloody expensive. But yeah, that's a story. That's a story for another day.

Jack O'Holleran: 27:29

And you know, people if you didn't play it as a kid, it's harder to identify with it. Right?

Matt Zahab: 27:34

Yes.

Jack O'Holleran: 27:35

And you know, a lot of you will play basketball. A lot of people played American football in the US a lot of people have soccer globally and then, you know, you've never put skates on and played hockey like me, it's just I watch it. I I don't have the same appreciation because I haven't been out there. But it is a beautiful sport. And I love the physicality. And you know, it's it's it, you know, toughness and bravery and skill are all rewarded.

Matt Zahab: 27:58

It's it's a sport of, of nail guns, who also have that, you know, the soft hands and have the touch. It's incredible. And it's one of the few sports where the referees and the people in charge let the athletes govern themselves, right? If you if you do something dirty to a star player, you drop the gloves, go for a little dance and spend five minutes in the penalty box. Like what more can you ask for? Right? There's a thing of beauty about that. It's a it's like crypto, it's very self governing. But, Jack, this has been incredible. I've had a blast. A couple more questions before we wrap up here. On the basis of creativity and creatives. For the last we'll call it two decades, if you were a creative, you are really getting the short end of the stick, it was very difficult. Whether you were an artist, musician, you name it to get your stuff out there, there were a lot of barriers to entry in walls you had to climb over. It seems like crypto are taking down all of those walls, more specifically NF T's and giving the power back to the creatives. And then you just talked about these massive fortune 500 companies hot take from Jack 80% of them are going to be jumped in NF T's in the next 18 months, they're going to need creatives to make their art right? You can't really just sure you can throw an NF T out on the platform but it's got to be sexy, right? Maybe not sexy, cute, whatever, it's got to create some emotion and that's where the artists come in. Is that an accurate statement by me or my

Jack O'Holleran: 29:15

it's incredibly accurate and the cool thing is so hundreds of years ago well art patronage has been around for a long time people realize they have to support artists but most artists over history only made money after they're dead right there aren't accrued a lot of value anymore. Um, you know and so and then like you know, we just lived in a world like this Maslow's hierarchy of needs people were more worried about putting food on the table and roofs above their head and we now live in this world where hey, we have all these you know, robot computers guiding us and what food we should order and people deliver them in an automated fashion and and so as part of this like broader macro theme, we also are people able to do jobs that are more like you know, Soul gratifying for them and bring sold gratification to other people and and the top level of this Maslow Pyramid is being monetized now where before it was just left to people who had the luxury of those you know the lifestyle they lead. That's That's my my take on it.

Matt Zahab: 30:15

I'm just taking notes that's I love that I haven't I've thought about that but monetizing the top level of Maslow's pyramid is is absolutely brilliant jack this has been an absolute treat and a half. Before we let you go, can you please let our guests and listeners know where they can find you and scale apps on social and on Web?

Jack O'Holleran: 30:31

Yeah, so so find us on Twitter at scale network SK le network and you can find me at at Jack o hollerin. ls M O H O ll e ra n and also you can just go to the school website and find all those links at scale dot network again scelta K. And please please join the telegram please join discord and there's a big community of awesome people and we welcome all of you to join

Matt Zahab: 30:57

Jack thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate you and looking forward to round two and hopefully I can meet in person one day and we'll go play some shinny which shinies the slang for pickup hockey that'd be cool all the best folks this was Jack from scale labs wouldn't incredible show great company great guy. Very very bullish on them and I would not not keep them under the radar. You do want to check them out. As always I will include everything in the show notes really had a good episode had a blast and hope you did too. As always, we're dropping on Mondays and Thursdays if you're going to be in Dubai for the blockchain Expo please do come say hi the crypto news team will be there as well love you all appreciate you. Keep stacking those bags. Stay safe keeping healthy, wealthy and happy and we will see you all shortly. Bye for now.