#77: Emma-Jane MacKinnon-Lee on Building the Web3 Fashion Economy

Emma-Jane MacKinnon-Lee is the Founder of DIGITALAX, the first NFT live market that brings your unique personality and style into native digital realms –– with layers of verifiable utility. 

In this conversation, we discuss:
- Digital Fashion Operating Systems
- Fashion in the metaverse
- Wear-to-earn
- Virtual land
- Buy-copy-kill
- FB & Meta in Web3
- ENS domains
- $MONA token

DIGITALAX
Website: digitalax.xyz
Twitter: @DIGITALAX_
Youtube: DIGITALAX
Instagram: @_digitalax

Emma-Jane
Twitter: @emmajane1313
LinkedIn: Emma-Jane MacKinnon-Lee

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Transcript

Matt Zahab: 0:10

Emma How are you?

Emma-Jane: 0:11

Good. How are you?

Matt Zahab: 0:12

I'm doing well. Great to meet you. Over I guess this is stream yard slash hop in. And folks really appreciate you all tuning in for our incredible shots with with Emma and myself. I'd like to apologize in advance for the bags under my eyes. I'm going to Dubai tonight and had quite the week at NFT. NYC. I think that's a great topic to start. Emma, were you there?

Emma-Jane: 0:33

No, I didn't make it. I was too busy with digital acts and all the building stuff. But I am going to Miami at the end of this month. So yeah, that would be interesting.

Matt Zahab: 0:43

I love that. That's incredible. Well, really, really excited to get the opportunity to speak with you today. I see we have some comments popping in already. They're loving the hair as well. I love the hair to for the folks just listening and not watching Emma is rockin some incredible pink hair. Love to see it. But your company, digital X is absolutely incredible. You and the team are taking a massive opportunity at hand and that is creating the web three fashion economy. Now, I'd like to start with something a little different than that. And that is ens domains. I was looking you on Twitter. I know you have the emogene dot eath domain. I have a domain myself. And what a little present. That was I'd love if we could if you could kick us off by telling the guests about what happened last night.

Emma-Jane: 1:32

Yes. So pretty much ens which is like like a decentralized Aetherium based DNS provider. And they airdropped all of the ens holders and amount of their like liquid liquid governance token that they've just released. And it was kind of just like a free money AirDrop, but also not in some ways. But yeah, it was it was crazy. I actually haven't even claimed mine yet. Because I've been so busy. But um, it's going to be a really good surprise. I know that. So yeah, I didn't know did you go and claim yours yet?

Matt Zahab: 2:04

I did. And it was a it was a multi $1,000 presence that I was on Twitter last night. And I'm like, This can't be true. I looked online saw it and I was like, Wow, is that? So for those at home? If you did register an ens domain before October first 2021. You will have a multi $1,000 present in your account what a treat that is. But I'd love to talk about the metaverse. Now it seems that it's the hottest word of the year Oxford Dictionary without a doubt will make it the 2021 word of the year. I don't know what else they could use maybe interoperability, but it seems like Metaverse is the front runner. And I bet the house on that your team is like we spoke about creating the web three fashion economy. What is your definition of the metaphors? And why is it the hottest word on the planet right now?

Emma-Jane: 2:54

Good question. Yeah, I mean, I guess kind of the typical definition of it is that it's like this immersive, persistent multi dimensional environment, which is also highly connected. So it was like the next iteration of the internet. We think about web two, and like the interfaces that we're using now. They're really flat and static. But imagine if those were completely immersive and multi dimensional around us. And then it allows us to connect form relationships communicate much better and in high fidelity. So that's really what it is. And it's also this crossover between the digital moreso enhancing the physical as well, and also digital native becoming much more popular. And why is it the most popular term? Well, I really think it is just kind of this next iteration. And COVID, as a lot of people say, like accelerated a lot of our digital online lives. And then when we had this, like massive bull run in the NFT market this year, people are starting to see the value of digital property, digital assets. And understanding that with web three and the blockchain for the first time, you can actually use this transparent ledger, to be able to own property, without kind of like the threat and fear of violence, which is really when we think about in web two, none of us really own property. Instead, it's kind of just conforming to someone else's rules and framework. And we're just like kind of having this centralized ledger that is saying that we own this and maybe that but it can be taken away from us at any time. And the blockchain completely revolutionizes that. So yeah, I think it's kind of those two things combined. And it's like this Cambrian explosion, and people are starting to really get it.

Matt Zahab: 4:29

The name itself Metaverse, it does make a lot of sense, but it's also a little wishy washy. It's such a broad term that can have a multitude of explanations. We also saw Facebook jump in last week or two weeks ago, I believe it was and changed their company name to meta absolute power moved by Zuckerberg expect nothing less from him. Do you think that the crypto economy and web three should be threatened or feel threatened by by Zaki baby and Facebook and meta coming after us?

Emma-Jane: 4:59

Good Question. Yeah. So what I would say is what we're seeing right now is really a complete collapse of third party databases. And so all of these companies like Facebook, Instagram, Google, you name it, you know, kind of like the types even these like centralized gaming companies triple A gaming companies epic blizzard. It is a massive tectonic shift and transformation, where web three is providing an undeniably better alternative. And they are collapsing, but it's just that time moves geographically. And we can see even with Zuckerberg move to like name Facebook. The Metaverse is such that thing of like trying to posture and own at something like that. It just shows that they're scrambling and they're panicked, because they really also understand that in this new world, the current way in the current assessed incentive system that they set up and it really benefited only the top few. It doesn't work in web three. And so yeah, I know, I don't think it's about feeling threatened. And you know, there's like the talks on crypto Twitter with people saying, Oh, we shouldn't call it Metaverse anymore, we should call it like hypervisor. So like, this is like why? Why given just because some person that has been like completely destructive and being it's gonna get tyranny and dystopia. I mean, Facebook itself. It's like why given and just like change everything, when we know that web three is the future, we know that that is the path that is actually going to allow us to have an open metaclass, which is really important. Otherwise, we're just going to be like perpetuating the same centralized systems that that lead us into all of these traps that we're seeing today.

Matt Zahab: 6:38

What do you think meta versus land play? Or sorry? Meta excuse me, Facebook? What we'll refer to them as meta? What do you think meta is land play looks like right now you sort of have the big two going head to head in the sandbox and decentraland really owning I'd say 90 plus percent of the metaverse, you know, virtual land share, what does metas land play look like in your mind?

Emma-Jane: 6:58

Yeah, well, I think that it isn't really even land, because it's just going to be on like Facebook server. And Zuckerberg will go in and like edit all of the stuff. And he will use it to, you know, buy and sell, like ads or whatever, to Putin and so on. So by them, it's gonna be completely Sofia. But I really think that it's all going to be about locking content into silos, and then making sure that none of that really has any value outside of like this maze, Facebook meta ecosystem, because really his play, it's all about a case by copying kill, get people into the platform. And then if there's any kind of other things that form either buys them out and integrates them, or he goes and kills them off. And that's going to be the exact same approach. And we think about the metaverse and even just web three, what brings so much value to it. It's all about composability. It's all about how you have these sub realms, and then interoperability channels between them where people can kind of hop between the different realms, they can get access to different utility experiences, events. And yeah, I mean that again, it's the whole kind of point of decentralization. It's why, for example, defy has so much value to it because the composable modules of all of the different parts of the ecosystem, and the metaverse is just going to have that but adds so much more of like an a massive and massive scale. So I know that Zuckerberg really isn't thinking like that I even saw a tweet he was like two days ago and it was like the Payton list of Facebook trying to copyright like even like battery cases. Like just crazy stuff like a huge huge list and it just shows Yeah, like the way he's going about it, which is it's very NGMA

Matt Zahab: 8:33

What was your term again, copy conquered by copy, kill. I love that. That's great. I'm gonna I'm gonna add that to my to my rolodex. So thank you for that. And Emma's M his company is called Digital X absolutely incredible. Myself I own a couple NF T's my favorite NF T is my cool cat. It is my profile picture Hacking Team, my LinkedIn profile pic, and I've taken some heat from that. Randall was DMing me being like, what are you a clown having a NFT is a profile picture. I'm like, Come on, ladies and gentlemen. This is 2021 not take yourself so seriously. I want to make a cool count my LinkedIn pic, you can feel it. You know, let's just let's just all have fun. And Ellie, everybody loves everybody. But that being said, when my Coolcat goes into the metaverse, as of right now, he just has his one outfit. However, digital x is changing that. And as allowing my cool cat and everyone else's profile pic, NFT or NFT, for that matter, to have some swag and have some fashion add level we can kick this off by you telling our audience how digital X is creating the web three fashion economy.

Emma-Jane: 9:33

Sure, yeah. So really what we have is a protocol stack. And it's built on Aetherium and polygon. And it's all of these key components that any web three fashion designer or Metaverse, Pioneer needs to then be able to kind of launch their realm into the market. And so that's made up of a lot of sub components. So for example, it includes NFT digital and physical web three fashion marketplaces. It includes Metaverse boutique custom made Order storefronts includes like Tao and governance mechanisms. For example, we have a global designer network down, which is filled with hundreds of digital and physical, indie web three fashion designers that are also kind of spinning up their own realms with our architecture protocol stack. It also includes a lot of defy eSports gaming mechanisms where we have like derivatives of play to on, which is like in blockchain gaming, and we call it where to. So it's where you can take your fashion and FTS into these different games and environments. And then you kind of engage in battles and quests rank up on a leaderboard, and you get paid out in native cryptocurrency, but it's your fashion NFT. And like the rarity of that, that is actually kind of giving you the meta utility within the game and the different access and unlocks and experiences. So yeah, it's like this whole Minimum Viable ecosystem that we're building. And really, it's about making the market because one year ago, we've only been launched for one year. But web three fashion wasn't even a term it didn't exist. And so since then, it's really been about putting in the hard work to kind of like put in all of these limit orders around what could possibly encompass or being competent in web three fashion, and then start bringing in like the merchant activity from the designers side, and then the buyer activity to which we're actually just starting to see pickup in probably like the past month or so.

Matt Zahab: 11:20

Am I you and the team are way ahead of the game. You started building this a year ago, you said,

Emma-Jane: 11:24

yeah, so it's around. It was really like kind of a week, a year ago that we launched, like the idea was first formulated around September last year, but we didn't really go live to market officially until, yeah, early November.

Matt Zahab: 11:38

What was the aha moment? What like what sort of ticked off in your head, that light switch where you were like, wow, it's just gonna be a massive, you know, economy to take over?

Emma-Jane: 11:47

Yeah. So my background is kind of interesting. I studied space engineering and from Australia study space engineering at the University of Sydney. But I dropped out, like kind of halfway through. I always loved math and physics. But halfway through, I fell really into the web three rabbit hole. And I became like, completely obsessed with like blockchain and FTS, all the different parts of it. Because they really just realized, like, wow, this is so incredible. This is like fundamental, like, generational transformative technology, like different ones like this is kind of like triple entry bookkeeping, in a sense. So we had like, page rank we had, like the printing press, like blockchain. Decentralization is like one of these other, like just yet life changing technologies. So I became so excited by that. And then I fell into web three. And when I fell into it, it was still kind of in the early stages. And so it was really like defined finance that were dominating the market. And I did a lot on that side of things as even part of a hedge fund and CO piloting that trading variant swaps, which are like options contracts on Bitcoin and Aetherium. But then I also realized that like finance is great. And defy is really interesting, that solves a lot of problems. But if you really want to scale this market, then like going up to someone on the street and talking to them about yield farming, or some like crazy finance thing that goes over their head. So I started looking at like other parts of the economy that could be really kind of unlockable to web three itself and onboarding people into web three. And this is where I went more into a deep dive of gaming, I came across like gaming skins, and I went into fashion, I looked more at fashion tech. And the only part of fashion tech that really made sense to me was digital fashion. Because I saw so much of the value of that when we think about like the metaverse digital environments becoming more immersive. But digital fashion never really took off, because there was no way to attach the value layer. And that's what web three is all about. It's about being able to directly program the value layer into previously frozen assets. And so yeah, just kind of seeing that, and then being so excited by it. And it's really just like deciding, hey, I'm going to just like go all in on this and start experimenting the hell out of it and see where it goes.

Matt Zahab: 13:58

So fortnight must have been a massive influence on this right? Because fortnight to my knowledge is one of the first games to really make millions and millions off of skins.

Emma-Jane: 14:06

Yeah, I mean, definitely, that that's kind of a lot of their economy. It's the novelty of the skins themselves. And it really kind of feeds back into like, even when you're saying with your profile picture on LinkedIn, that's like identity itself expression, you're also showing that you're part of a guild squad, like kind of connecting to that. And then when you have these on chain components that are enhancing that, then the property itself or the identity itself becomes even more real. And that's really what the blockchain is doing for fashion NF T's as well. It's making them real, it's enhancing your identity, your self expression across these virtual worlds because when we think about it, it's like even when you have like your Twitter profile photo, or what you're expressing there on your Facebook for furlough, it's all about self expression and fashion is so fundamental to that. So yeah, it's like the same thing with fortnight. They really tapped into that digital economy. In Roblox, you have like the entire skins marketplace there. And people like creating skins, selling them wearing them modding them. It's yeah, it's incredibly fundamental. And that's just like exponentially growing in adoption.

Matt Zahab: 15:12

When I picture my cool cat. And again, I'm being selfish here and using mine for an example just because I can put my feet in my own shoes here. But when I picture my cool cat, you know, doing something crazy playing a virtual game in decentraland, or the sandbox, or any of the web three worlds, I almost feel like he need I would need to have a pair of Oculus glasses on or some type of virtual reality headset to really get the 360 true real life picture of my NFT rocking some type of swag or fashion or whatever the case may be. Would you say that's an accurate statement?

Emma-Jane: 15:48

Sure. So whether it will be Oculus, or I mean, I would vote more for like open hardware systems. And I think that that is a really critical component that's missing right now we think about the metaverse and then web three being able to scale that is having open hardware to go along with the software itself, because like you said, Oculus is like the go to that is definitely the leader in the market. But unfortunately, it's under like the same suck of us control. And so I really think that that's a really important part. It's about how do we also put resources into open hardware for building out the metaverse because yeah, to in order to create these immersive environments that are like completely for Dean and interdimensional. And I think that I mean, I don't know exactly, but I am sure that there will be that progression where we will have to like have the eyewear and that and that kind of eye mask itself will be like similar to an Oculus quest. But eventually, then yeah, I mean, the medium itself could take like a completely different form, like what if it was like a pill that we took, and that like, then created like, some kind of psychedelic trip, but that was like our entry into the metaverse. Yeah, like we really don't know, I guess,

Matt Zahab: 16:57

so many cool things to come into very excited for this. Want to take a couple questions from the audience. Daniel R has been buzzing for the last 20 minutes appreciate you chiming in Daniel, and you have a great question. Regarding digital locks, does this work like customizing your existing NF T's?

Emma-Jane: 17:14

So yeah, and we actually just launched as well, which you mentioned, like the kind of dressing of profile photos. So how it works is you kind of like bring your your avatar into our global design network down. And then we can like dress it in different ways, but at a different wardrobe for it. But because a lot of the unchained NFT metadata is immutable. What it does mean is is that you can't kind of just go in that like say, original cool cats NFT that you have, unless they change the code itself. So like the cool cats doubt just the code to be generative, or be like upgradable, which there are like upgradeable and dynamic NFT smart contracts available now. But it couldn't just be where it's like you change that specific one. Instead, it would be like another NFT. minted so that would be kind of cool. You like have this whole variety of wardrobe or changing room for your NFT. Or it could be something where you're just getting the outfit and then it's like a more of an off chain editing component, or through like the interface of the application itself that enables that

Matt Zahab: 18:15

love that any crazy hot takes where we can go front page of, of maybe of crypto news.com, where Emma Jane just said the most bananas thing in the world. Do you have any crazy hot takes or things that you believe that no one else does regarding crypto blockchain? What three?

Emma-Jane: 18:33

Really good question. I mean, that's a hard one. Because I mean, I don't know if this is a crazy taken and think it is. But one thing that I always kind of really go back to is about advancing decentralization web three, because I think a lot of this space, it's very easy to kind of like use web three tech for web two purposes, but then just like reinforce centralization. And we do see that a lot when there's like these bull markets, and then a whole flood kind of comes in. And then people like fork it and do it in different ways, which really isn't about enhancing decentralization at its core, because it's also looking at, well, we're minting all of this property, how do we actually reinforce and feed into growing? What gave us the power to do that in the first place? And that's being able to have this permissionless open source blockchain that anyone can interact with, and then start kind of forking and making and building out different realms. So yeah, I mean, it's a really cool thing, because when we think about, like, fashion itself and fashion MFTs just minting a fashion NFT on a blockchain and taking it into a game. I mean, that's easy. Anyone can do that. It's really about how do you actually embed core advancing web three principles within that, which is what digital X like we, we pride ourselves on and we really make sure it's embedded with like, within every element of the fabric that we do. So no, that's not like a front page job. But it is like a really important point to always take into No,

Matt Zahab: 20:00

that's a great point. We do have nine minutes left. And I do want one crazy heartache out of you, Ms. So get those get those wheels spinning in your head. And hopefully you can have one for me within the next nine minutes. So when you started that little spiel, you brought up a great point in regards to centralization, one sort of underrated point that I don't hear enough about his crypto and blockchains dependence on AWS. Like, to my knowledge, I again, I'm pulling numbers out of my you know what here, but I saw the numbers like 66% Plus, of all servers are hosted on AWS, which is a massive problem. Do you see a solution to this moving forward? Are we always going to have to depend on the AWS is in the Oracles and the Microsoft and all the above other big cloud computing companies to host their servers?

Emma-Jane: 20:45

Yeah, no, really good question. Um, no, definitely solution. I mean, there's already decentralized database solutions that exist, even when we think about like the hosting of NFT metadata. Sure, a lot of protocols still do use AWS, which kind of defeats the purpose of it being decentralized and on chain. But there's also like, for example, digital x, we use Pinjarra, which is like an interplanetary file, system, and application. And what that means is the metadata itself is actually decentralized. It's part of kind of like the entire, like web three space. So I think that's just part of this, like hybrid transition, which is what we're seeing right now. There's a lot of protocols where they're in that hybrid state where they're coming to web three, but we still have to rely on some web to tech. But then we're seeing all of these different, like now, native web UI solutions pop up. And decentralized commerce is a really important part of that. And it hasn't been like, completely attended to unsolved but and that's why I love like what's happened in the past 12 months in the space with or even less than eight months in space with everyone flooding in, because it just means now there is so many more builders, creators pioneers, looking at these problems, and then figuring out solutions to them that the rest of us can leverage to continue to grow the market to

Matt Zahab: 21:59

well said very well said, we have a very funny question from I'm gonna do my best here, Olivier, let's say UK, and Olivier asked MIT you aspire to become the Coco Chanel of the metaverse.

Emma-Jane: 22:16

headliner for you. Um, I mean, like Coco Chanel, and and all of these bigger brands, I would say that they're all NGMA in terms of the way that they operate. Now, they're, it's incompatible with web three. And it's not to say that they can't move into web three and create immense value. But the way that they set up is all about centralized top down control. It's all about ensuring that only the top few benefit, and web three is rather about kind of decentralizing that base and the value and moving it completely from edge to edge and it being generative and lucrative. So just Lex is really more about how we actually set up kind of the base protocol, architecture and the economy itself to then launch millions and millions of Fashion Designers digital and physical interweb three, which is really what we're doing right now is kind of giving them the tools and assets, the minimum viable armory set to then go out there and start creating value in the market.

Matt Zahab: 23:14

How big is the learning curve for a traditional fashion designer who's creating clothing, or anything else fashion related, moving to the metaverse and making it all digital? Is that like just in an unfeasible transition? How long is the timeline there? I'd love any tidbits of advice you have for anyone trying to jump from traditional fashion to Metaverse fashion.

Emma-Jane: 23:35

Sure, yeah. So I would say I mean, it's definitely like anything, it requires a different perspective and looking at things because even many of the designers that come from traditional space, they also have like a very siloed fear kind of approach around fashion because they used to like the absolute abuse within traditional fashion. So when they come into web three fashion, they kind of expect it to be the same. And then they start hearing these different things like open source, and then like collaboration, they're like, What the hell that must be a trap. And that's why we started the Global Center Network down which is filled with hundreds of digital and physical indie web three fashion designers. And it's an amazing community, if anyone is out there and they literally they don't know anything about fashion, or they don't even know how to do 3d Or that but they want to they want to start just transitioning in, you can literally come into our Discord. And we onboard you and you start kind of being part of this community and Estelle, and we host like weekly calls every week where we go through like, what is web three? What is d phi NF Ts, and there's all like amazing, like collaborative projects going on. But it really is this community empowering anyone to be a web three fashion designer,

Matt Zahab: 24:44

Emma, you are on point right now and the audience is loving it too. I'm reading the comments. People are like, just beyond loving all of your terms here. Just Just to review a couple of the blue chip ama terms that we've heard and you do need your own dictionary by the way but by copy kill from the soccer verse that is an absolute goldmine you have where to earn never heard that before another gold mine Minimum Viable armory set another gold mine, give me some more terms. What else do you have in the repertoire?

Emma-Jane: 25:15

Oh, my gosh, she putting me on the spot. Um,

Matt Zahab: 25:18

that's my job.

Emma-Jane: 25:19

There's a lot right so the I mean, that's kind of what we also do in the designer network and just flexes like we come up with different types of he will be able to like literally eat the understanding of what fashion economy more because it's like anything you're you're like, bringing in these new ideas. And we have one it's called fractional garment ownership. So this is my absolute favorite. And we had this one Digital IQ started. And what it allows you to do is modularize, a master garment into its different like axiomatic parts. So if you're a designer, you can mint 1155 NF T's as patterns, materials and textures that go on chain, then other designers can come and take those NF T's, they can incorporate these patterns, materials, textures into their master garment. And then what it means is that the final sale point, there is a fractional royalty split between all the different contributors and collaborators to the garment. So it's like this completely transparent on chain supply chain structure. But it's absolutely amazing. And it's like bringing composability modularity to fashion. And we have these libraries launched their life. And they're powered by the global standard network. So it's even like if you are new to the space, you can meet a pattern and then literally start generating value from that even before you started your journey into like full on 3d Metaverse fashion. So yeah, it's like breaking everything down into these smaller components.

Matt Zahab: 26:38

Again, very well said and I'm just reading the comments again, you put a couple people's minds in the blender there. That was a that was world class. A couple of questions just to conclude here and thanks them and this has been an absolute treat. Let's talk about traditional fashion brands when or the you know, the big dogs, the Pradas the Gucci's what are they going to get into the metaverse, the Louis Vuitton's, and what does their onboard ramp look like in your mind?

Emma-Jane: 27:03

Yeah, so I mean, a lot of them actually already have been doing like kind of fashion NFT drops, and they've been doing like different game partnerships and that, but I am betting completely on the indie designer market, because that is decentralization. Decentralization is all about it being permissionless where without permission, go out there and have creative power to be this more like bottom up approach and design what you want not be dictated by like a top down tastemaker. And this is really still how these traditional brands are, they had that same mindset they coming in, and they're not really understanding what web three is or the power of it. And they're rather thinking this is a hype train, I can go in that can mean the fashion NFT and some kind of, you know, person in the market is going to pay hundreds of 1000s to millions of dollars. And then I'm going to be able to take that value. They're not actually really seeing it as this is the future. And they're not seeing it as a tectonic shift where web three now means you have the power as an individual in your own hands. Which means you can spin up your own realm you can start going directly to the market. You don't have to rely on these gatekeepers and these massive arbitrary friction points. That yeah, like block everything in your path which which is really what how these top brands operate.

Matt Zahab: 28:15

Mr. You are a rock star incredible job folks. I really hope you enjoyed listening to this. We have to the classic plug before we leave you all, Emma Jean where can our audience find you on socials and online

Emma-Jane: 28:26

shop? Yes, so I would say the best kind of way is to definitely come into the digital X Discord server. And you can find that from our site. So that's digital x dot XYZ, and then also Twitter. So Twitter is digital X underscore and then my own personal Twitter is Emma Jane 1313.

Matt Zahab: 28:45

Absolutely incredible. Emma, thank you so much. And I guess I have to plug myself as well. If you'd like to find me online. at maths they have pretty much everywhere me TT Zed ah a B, and I work for crypto news and 99 stars crypto news is the eighth largest crypto news outlet in the world. Incredible team and nine stars. We are building the gig economy of the metaverse in a massive NFTL ecosystem. Love you all appreciate you listening and enjoy the next show. All the best