{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1.23,"endTime":2.31,"body":"Hello, and welcome to fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2.34,"endTime":4.29,"body":"science show session 37."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4.29,"endTime":5.46,"body":"Great to have you here again."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":5.938,"endTime":8.736,"body":"today's guest is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":5.938,"endTime":8.736,"body":"professor Enrico Ronchi"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":8.736,"endTime":10.256,"body":"from Lund University."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":10.286,"endTime":14.53,"body":"And you may remember him from"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":10.286,"endTime":14.53,"body":"episode 16, where I've tapped"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":14.53,"endTime":16.45,"body":"into his mind and professors."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":16.45,"endTime":20.439,"body":"Ruggiero Lovreglio's  mind"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":16.45,"endTime":20.439,"body":"to understand what the future"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":20.439,"endTime":22.03,"body":"has for evacuation modeling."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":22.599,"endTime":26.069,"body":"I've invited Enrico after"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":22.599,"endTime":26.069,"body":"a passionate, discussion on"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":26.069,"endTime":30.2,"body":"Twitter about, protecting"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":26.069,"endTime":30.2,"body":"evacuation modeling field"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":30.25,"endTime":33.82,"body":"from bad science and how"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":30.25,"endTime":33.82,"body":"badly some models are use."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":33.85,"endTime":34.0,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":34.84,"endTime":38.21,"body":"How it creates a parallel"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":34.84,"endTime":38.21,"body":"literature scheme."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":38.69,"endTime":42.973,"body":"And it's quite funny that, just"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":38.69,"endTime":42.973,"body":"today in the morning, There"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":42.973,"endTime":47.693,"body":"was a really nice, Webinar by"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":42.973,"endTime":47.693,"body":"human behavior group of IFSS"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":48.083,"endTime":51.293,"body":"Where the terminology"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":48.083,"endTime":51.293,"body":"used in evacuation"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":51.323,"endTime":53.153,"body":"science was discussed."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":53.873,"endTime":57.683,"body":"And a lot of this is so"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":53.873,"endTime":57.683,"body":"relatable to my today's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":57.683,"endTime":60.173,"body":"discussion to say, In a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":57.683,"endTime":60.173,"body":"way, the webinar in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":60.173,"endTime":62.393,"body":"morning has shaped the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":60.173,"endTime":62.393,"body":"discussion in the afternoon."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":62.753,"endTime":66.593,"body":"And that makes me very happy"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":62.753,"endTime":66.593,"body":"because I think it gave"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":66.623,"endTime":68.033,"body":"the talk another dimension."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":68.316,"endTime":71.826,"body":"And I hope you like how we've"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":68.316,"endTime":71.826,"body":"ventured with Enrico, through"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":71.87,"endTime":73.873,"body":"some concepts that are common"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":74.263,"endTime":76.633,"body":"in evacuation modeling"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":74.263,"endTime":76.633,"body":"and maybe they should not."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":76.753,"endTime":79.903,"body":"And some concepts that are"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":76.753,"endTime":79.903,"body":"not common and maybe they"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":79.903,"endTime":82.089,"body":"should be a little more so."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":82.1,"endTime":82.429,"body":", yeah."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":82.476,"endTime":86.789,"body":"whether if you are engineer"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":82.476,"endTime":86.789,"body":"or researcher, I think there's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":86.82,"endTime":89.639,"body":"a lot of useful things to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":86.82,"endTime":89.639,"body":"take away from this episode."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":90.059,"endTime":91.169,"body":"I hope you enjoy."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":91.38,"endTime":93.419,"body":"So let's not prolong this."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":93.44,"endTime":95.179,"body":"And let's jump into the episode."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":118.251,"endTime":121.291,"body":"Hello today I'm here with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":118.251,"endTime":121.291,"body":"professor Enrico Ronchi"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":121.291,"endTime":122.511,"body":"from Lund university."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":122.541,"endTime":123.171,"body":"Hello, Enrico."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":123.171,"endTime":123.861,"body":"Great to have you."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":123.891,"endTime":124.691,"body":"back in the show,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":124.981,"endTime":125.441,"body":"Hi."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":125.471,"endTime":126.151,"body":"Hi Wojciech."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":126.151,"endTime":127.251,"body":"Very nice to be back,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":127.691,"endTime":128.648,"body":"Please, don't panic."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":132.578,"endTime":133.285,"body":"Uh, yes, it's,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":133.295,"endTime":136.495,"body":"just 15 seconds into the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":133.295,"endTime":136.495,"body":"episode and we've already used"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":136.505,"endTime":140.23,"body":"a forbidden word and It's an"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":136.505,"endTime":140.23,"body":"important part of this episode."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":140.328,"endTime":141.978,"body":"Just earlier this morning."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":142.0,"endTime":146.585,"body":"I, saw a great webinar,  in,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":142.0,"endTime":146.585,"body":"um, human behavior in fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":146.585,"endTime":149.825,"body":"work group of IFSS with,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":146.585,"endTime":149.825,"body":", Anne Templeton and  Milad"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":149.922,"endTime":154.076,"body":"Haghani who did, discuss"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":149.922,"endTime":154.076,"body":"the P word in depth and."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":154.396,"endTime":156.046,"body":"You were moderator of that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":156.049,"endTime":156.709,"body":"It was great."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":156.919,"endTime":158.089,"body":"Will it be available?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":158.089,"endTime":158.839,"body":"online by the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":158.839,"endTime":159.019,"body":"way?"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":159.299,"endTime":160.919,"body":"we have"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":159.299,"endTime":160.919,"body":"actually YouTube channels."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":160.919,"endTime":166.102,"body":"So we record all our webinars"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":160.919,"endTime":166.102,"body":"and, yeah, so I will share"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":166.102,"endTime":168.562,"body":"around the LinkedIn subscribe"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":166.102,"endTime":168.562,"body":"to our YouTube channel."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":169.162,"endTime":171.136,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":169.162,"endTime":171.136,"body":"so cool so two for a price"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":171.136,"endTime":173.476,"body":"of one, that you ended up"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":171.136,"endTime":173.476,"body":"listening to these episodes,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":173.498,"endTime":177.362,"body":"go and immediately learn"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":173.498,"endTime":177.362,"body":"something about, how bad."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":177.452,"endTime":180.542,"body":"we Use terminology in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":177.452,"endTime":180.542,"body":"evacuation, modeling,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":180.842,"endTime":184.732,"body":"but it has, consequences"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":180.842,"endTime":184.732,"body":"far beyond the, Hm."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":185.462,"endTime":189.576,"body":"Cleanliness of the language,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":185.462,"endTime":189.576,"body":"it's not just using the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":189.576,"endTime":191.566,"body":"terminology, because"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":189.576,"endTime":191.566,"body":"the vocabulary, says so"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":191.586,"endTime":195.786,"body":"so it has a deeper meaning"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":191.586,"endTime":195.786,"body":"that leads to misconceptions"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":195.786,"endTime":197.226,"body":", and issues with that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":197.841,"endTime":199.112,"body":"do you think it's really."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":199.382,"endTime":202.652,"body":"such an important thing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":199.382,"endTime":202.652,"body":"to have workshops on"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":202.652,"endTime":204.276,"body":"that and, really battle."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":204.842,"endTime":209.232,"body":"I think in"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":204.842,"endTime":209.232,"body":"our subfield of evacuation"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":209.252,"endTime":213.002,"body":"modeling and human behavior"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":209.252,"endTime":213.002,"body":"fire, really flagged this"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":213.122,"endTime":216.646,"body":"as a very big problem"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":213.122,"endTime":216.646,"body":"because noticed that there"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":216.646,"endTime":221.379,"body":"is, uh, an even increasing,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":216.646,"endTime":221.379,"body":"literature modeling papers."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":221.679,"endTime":224.769,"body":"They try to model something"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":221.679,"endTime":224.769,"body":"that has very little"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":224.799,"endTime":226.209,"body":"link to the real world."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":226.239,"endTime":229.706,"body":"And, If we look at the studies"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":226.239,"endTime":229.706,"body":"for instance, that both Anne"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":231.236,"endTime":235.466,"body":"have been doing into the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":231.236,"endTime":235.466,"body":"use of a terminology, this"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":235.466,"endTime":239.369,"body":"seems to have spread more"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":235.466,"endTime":239.369,"body":"and more following up, these"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":239.369,"endTime":243.144,"body":"seminal papers, which make an"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":239.369,"endTime":243.144,"body":"incorrect use Of those words."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":243.144,"endTime":245.961,"body":"So for instance, there is a,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":243.144,"endTime":245.961,"body":"let's say one of the key papers"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":245.961,"endTime":249.951,"body":"in our field is the paper"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":245.961,"endTime":249.951,"body":"from, Helbing and some of his"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":249.951,"endTime":252.621,"body":"colleagues published in Nature"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":249.951,"endTime":252.621,"body":"in the middle nineties, which"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":252.621,"endTime":254.001,"body":"presents the social force model."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":254.031,"endTime":257.701,"body":"Probably that's one of the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":254.031,"endTime":257.701,"body":"most common modeling approaches"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":257.751,"endTime":258.951,"body":"in a evacuation simulations."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":259.491,"endTime":262.533,"body":"it talks about modeling panic"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":259.491,"endTime":262.533,"body":"And the fingers that actually"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":262.533,"endTime":265.323,"body":"the model is a beautiful"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":262.533,"endTime":265.323,"body":"model mathematically, because"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":265.323,"endTime":268.803,"body":"it's very simple and it's"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":265.323,"endTime":268.803,"body":"very flexible in representing"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":268.833,"endTime":272.163,"body":"people movement, it is"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":268.833,"endTime":272.163,"body":"actually not modeling panic."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":272.793,"endTime":277.053,"body":"And what happened is that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":272.793,"endTime":277.053,"body":"people literally the words"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":277.083,"endTime":279.563,"body":"as they are in the, paper."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":279.593,"endTime":283.583,"body":"And they start making modeling"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":279.593,"endTime":283.583,"body":"efforts, which let's say derail"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":283.583,"endTime":286.999,"body":"from theoriginal purpose of that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":283.583,"endTime":286.999,"body":"paper, which was actually about"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":286.999,"endTime":288.799,"body":"the modeling people movement."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":289.519,"endTime":293.359,"body":"And we see a lot of modeling"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":289.519,"endTime":293.359,"body":"efforts, which, , don't make"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":293.359,"endTime":294.739,"body":"too much physical sense."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":294.769,"endTime":298.126,"body":"And, and it's a really a pity"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":294.769,"endTime":298.126,"body":"because, as community, we"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":298.126,"endTime":300.676,"body":"should try to intervene to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":298.126,"endTime":300.676,"body":"do something into stopping"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":300.676,"endTime":302.056,"body":"this waste of energies."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":302.505,"endTime":303.786,"body":"I will argue the property."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":303.806,"endTime":304.956,"body":"This is not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":305.581,"endTime":305.881,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":306.306,"endTime":307.056,"body":"as we think."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":307.416,"endTime":312.006,"body":"Did we have that may become"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":307.416,"endTime":312.006,"body":"from slightly different domains"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":312.006,"endTime":315.413,"body":"from ours, that approach our"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":312.006,"endTime":315.413,"body":"domain of, fire and evacuation"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":315.433,"endTime":319.493,"body":"modeling and basically,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":315.433,"endTime":319.493,"body":"they are very good at maths."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":319.493,"endTime":320.123,"body":"Probably."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":320.123,"endTime":323.283,"body":"They're very good into,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":320.123,"endTime":323.283,"body":"coding and implementing"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":323.283,"endTime":326.373,"body":"models, but they probably"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":323.283,"endTime":326.373,"body":"did not spend enough time"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":326.373,"endTime":327.723,"body":"reading the literature."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":328.338,"endTime":332.598,"body":"Of the what they're meant to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":328.338,"endTime":332.598,"body":"model, but they just look at the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":332.598,"endTime":337.321,"body":"modeling literature and these"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":332.598,"endTime":337.321,"body":"created this very, huge bulk"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":337.321,"endTime":339.481,"body":"of modeling literature with."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":339.781,"endTime":340.094,"body":"Jeez."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":340.119,"endTime":343.729,"body":"Unfortunately"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":340.119,"endTime":343.729,"body":"a very poor, for the fire"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":343.729,"endTime":346.129,"body":"engineers or for any users"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":343.729,"endTime":346.129,"body":"of evacuation models,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":346.129,"endTime":349.639,"body":"because they mostly attempt"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":346.129,"endTime":349.639,"body":"to model something that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":349.639,"endTime":353.029,"body":"doesn't happen in real life"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":349.639,"endTime":353.029,"body":"or hyper very rarely, or that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":353.059,"endTime":355.879,"body":"it is not the assumptions"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":353.059,"endTime":355.879,"body":"that we use in design."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":355.879,"endTime":359.089,"body":"So this disconnection"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":355.879,"endTime":359.089,"body":"between the real world"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":360.049,"endTime":360.799,"body":"and the real world."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":361.494,"endTime":365.604,"body":"And the modeling world"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":361.494,"endTime":365.604,"body":"unfortunately creates a lot of"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":365.604,"endTime":367.584,"body":"waste in the research community."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":367.584,"endTime":371.964,"body":"So there needs to be effort"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":367.584,"endTime":371.964,"body":"to try to avoid this somehow."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":371.994,"endTime":374.664,"body":"And I mean, that was the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":371.994,"endTime":374.664,"body":"motivation for one of the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":374.664,"endTime":378.034,"body":"motivation for our groups,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":374.664,"endTime":378.034,"body":"on human behaviour and fires"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":378.094,"endTime":383.816,"body":"of the IFSS was indeed put"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":378.094,"endTime":383.816,"body":"ourselves together, hit some"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":383.846,"endTime":386.066,"body":"hot topics that we thought"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":383.846,"endTime":386.066,"body":"could be interesting both"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":386.096,"endTime":388.766,"body":"within the community, but also"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":386.096,"endTime":388.766,"body":"outside the community so that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":389.156,"endTime":391.646,"body":"if someone is approaching our"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":389.156,"endTime":391.646,"body":"field, at least can have a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":391.646,"endTime":395.636,"body":"general overview let's say, on"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":391.646,"endTime":395.636,"body":"the common mistakes the common"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":395.636,"endTime":399.683,"body":"problems that we see when a new"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":395.636,"endTime":399.683,"body":"people, approach, this field."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":399.87,"endTime":400.26,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":400.416,"endTime":403.616,"body":"Let's try and figure out"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":400.416,"endTime":403.616,"body":"what's really the issue is."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":404.186,"endTime":410.462,"body":"So in my understanding, you can"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":404.186,"endTime":410.462,"body":"use term panic or whatever other"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":410.582,"endTime":411.962,"body":"way you would like to name it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":412.442,"endTime":415.419,"body":"But you can use this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":412.442,"endTime":415.419,"body":"term as a proxy of a very"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":415.419,"endTime":416.529,"body":"complex human behavior."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":416.649,"endTime":419.949,"body":"Like you say, okay, this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":416.649,"endTime":419.949,"body":"group of people or this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":419.949,"endTime":423.489,"body":"person has panicked which"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":419.949,"endTime":423.489,"body":"means there is a new"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":423.489,"endTime":425.079,"body":"rationale for their behavior."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":425.439,"endTime":426.969,"body":"They will act like this."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":426.969,"endTime":428.199,"body":"They will do this."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":428.199,"endTime":430.656,"body":"And you also used the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":428.199,"endTime":430.656,"body":"term That it's contagious."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":430.656,"endTime":431.936,"body":"And I think that it was how we."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":432.431,"endTime":435.191,"body":"Previously described it can"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":432.431,"endTime":435.191,"body":"spread from person to person."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":435.671,"endTime":440.151,"body":"So Suddenly you have a fairly"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":435.671,"endTime":440.151,"body":"easy way to model behavior"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":440.151,"endTime":441.501,"body":"of large groups of people."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":441.501,"endTime":441.891,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":441.921,"endTime":445.917,"body":"And in reality, you have"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":441.921,"endTime":445.917,"body":"evacuation scientists"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":446.007,"endTime":446.607,"body":"looking through"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":446.652,"endTime":447.005,"body":"through"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":447.005,"endTime":450.296,"body":"real cases of fires,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":447.005,"endTime":450.296,"body":"looking through data,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":450.326,"endTime":451.766,"body":"carrying your experiments."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":452.096,"endTime":455.229,"body":"You do not see this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":452.096,"endTime":455.229,"body":"simple negative behavior."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":455.599,"endTime":458.269,"body":"I had the Erica in the podcast"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":455.599,"endTime":458.269,"body":"and she was mentioning the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":458.269,"endTime":463.506,"body":"complexity of modeling behavior"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":458.269,"endTime":463.506,"body":"So in one way, putting this in,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":463.506,"endTime":468.036,"body":"in this panic route or, or this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":463.506,"endTime":468.036,"body":"simplistic behavior route gives"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":468.036,"endTime":469.806,"body":"you the benefit of modeling."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":470.544,"endTime":473.064,"body":"And, you can claim that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":470.544,"endTime":473.064,"body":"you've modeled behavior,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":473.094,"endTime":474.114,"body":"but in world you did not."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":474.114,"endTime":476.904,"body":"You just shown the proxy,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":474.114,"endTime":476.904,"body":"which actually is incorrect."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":477.265,"endTime":478.674,"body":"it's like,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":477.265,"endTime":478.674,"body":"you're building a video"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":478.674,"endTime":481.234,"body":"game, but that's nothing"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":478.674,"endTime":481.234,"body":"to do with with reality"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":481.234,"endTime":482.577,"body":"because it's much easier."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":482.972,"endTime":487.899,"body":"Let's say model social influence"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":482.972,"endTime":487.899,"body":"as a contagion, this spreads"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":487.899,"endTime":491.289,"body":"with contact with physical"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":487.899,"endTime":491.289,"body":"contact like, okay, like I"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":491.289,"endTime":495.459,"body":"touch you, you become a red dot,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":491.289,"endTime":495.459,"body":"you wear black dot and so on,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":495.459,"endTime":497.379,"body":"but this is not how it works."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":497.979,"endTime":500.019,"body":"And that's the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":497.979,"endTime":500.019,"body":"problem that we face."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":500.019,"endTime":503.049,"body":"We face the situation"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":500.019,"endTime":503.049,"body":"in which the leadership."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":503.569,"endTime":507.459,"body":"Unfortunately, it's kind"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":503.569,"endTime":507.459,"body":"of split, into a part of,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":507.459,"endTime":511.149,"body":"of scientists that to model"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":507.459,"endTime":511.149,"body":"the real world phenomenon."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":511.179,"endTime":513.339,"body":"And this, as you said,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":511.179,"endTime":513.339,"body":"and as several other"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":513.339,"endTime":515.949,"body":"colleagues say, like Erika"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":513.339,"endTime":515.949,"body":"Kuligowski many others."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":516.349,"endTime":517.789,"body":", it is not easy."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":518.512,"endTime":521.542,"body":"You can either approach"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":518.512,"endTime":521.542,"body":"this with, let's say more"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":521.782,"endTime":524.212,"body":"macroscopic approach or"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":521.782,"endTime":524.212,"body":"microscopic approach."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":524.242,"endTime":526.942,"body":"Try to look at each"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":524.242,"endTime":526.942,"body":"individual person."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":526.942,"endTime":528.982,"body":"But in any case, it's not"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":526.942,"endTime":528.982,"body":"simple because you will have"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":528.982,"endTime":530.632,"body":"to factor in many variables."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":530.662,"endTime":534.832,"body":"One of we know is social"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":530.662,"endTime":534.832,"body":"influence, which not based"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":534.832,"endTime":538.26,"body":"in relying on who we have,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":534.832,"endTime":538.26,"body":"around us, but also in who"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":538.26,"endTime":542.01,"body":"we are in the simulation,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":538.26,"endTime":542.01,"body":"so that the actual profiling"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":542.58,"endTime":543.95,"body":"each individual person."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":544.695,"endTime":547.505,"body":"It's also important all"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":544.695,"endTime":547.505,"body":"these models, they are"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":547.895,"endTime":550.985,"body":"already, there are a few"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":547.895,"endTime":550.985,"body":"very good models technically"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":550.985,"endTime":552.065,"body":"for modeling these things."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":552.065,"endTime":555.275,"body":"But the problem is how to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":552.065,"endTime":555.275,"body":"calibrate them real world"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":556.055,"endTime":558.395,"body":"scenarios real world data."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":558.425,"endTime":561.755,"body":"Knowing that even to get hold"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":558.425,"endTime":561.755,"body":"of these data is very difficult."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":562.085,"endTime":563.135,"body":"And even if we have dates."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":563.955,"endTime":567.159,"body":"Of this kind, sometimes the,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":563.955,"endTime":567.159,"body":"either come from observational"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":567.159,"endTime":572.079,"body":"studies in which you don't"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":567.159,"endTime":572.079,"body":"have level of detail let's"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":572.079,"endTime":574.749,"body":"say, what is the inner"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":572.079,"endTime":574.749,"body":"decision-making process that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":574.749,"endTime":577.329,"body":"people do all the other side?"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":577.359,"endTime":579.069,"body":"The problem is when"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":577.359,"endTime":579.069,"body":"you have like a."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":579.574,"endTime":583.664,"body":"Uh, instead a stated preference"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":579.574,"endTime":583.664,"body":"studies in which actually people"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":583.664,"endTime":586.754,"body":"claim what they will do, they"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":583.664,"endTime":586.754,"body":"have problems with validity"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":586.754,"endTime":589.994,"body":"because then you may have people"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":586.754,"endTime":589.994,"body":"claiming they will do something."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":590.024,"endTime":593.624,"body":"But, , we do not know how"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":590.024,"endTime":593.624,"body":"often, how well this relate"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":593.634,"endTime":595.684,"body":"would actually what will"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":593.634,"endTime":595.684,"body":"happen in the real world."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":595.684,"endTime":599.344,"body":"So of these type of data"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":595.684,"endTime":599.344,"body":"carry their own uncertainties"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":599.344,"endTime":600.864,"body":"and their own limitations."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":600.864,"endTime":601.024,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":601.524,"endTime":605.634,"body":"The solution is not just to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":601.524,"endTime":605.634,"body":"make everything simple, overly"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":605.634,"endTime":610.734,"body":"simple, and just say, okay, we"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":605.634,"endTime":610.734,"body":"do a spread of contagion model"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":610.734,"endTime":611.964,"body":"and we have solved the problem."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":612.404,"endTime":614.64,"body":"and we can use this for"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":612.404,"endTime":614.64,"body":"design that the solution"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":614.64,"endTime":618.004,"body":"is to try to, first of all,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":614.64,"endTime":618.004,"body":"as scientists to understand"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":618.004,"endTime":619.924,"body":"what are these fundamental"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":618.004,"endTime":619.924,"body":"variables that affect"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":619.924,"endTime":622.144,"body":"decision-making, as modeler."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":622.854,"endTime":625.974,"body":"Just let's stick to what we"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":622.854,"endTime":625.974,"body":"know from the real world."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":625.974,"endTime":628.94,"body":"So go ahead with, the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":625.974,"endTime":628.94,"body":"knowledge that we have."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":628.94,"endTime":633.56,"body":"Let's not try to go one step"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":628.94,"endTime":633.56,"body":"forward into try to model things"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":633.56,"endTime":634.85,"body":"that we don't know because."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":635.565,"endTime":636.885,"body":"That's not gonna work."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":636.915,"endTime":637.845,"body":"That's not gonna work."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":637.875,"endTime":641.625,"body":"Any model will not be"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":637.875,"endTime":641.625,"body":"meaningful for fire engineers"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":642.135,"endTime":645.555,"body":"it's not validated and if"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":642.135,"endTime":645.555,"body":"it's not properly calibrated."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":645.555,"endTime":647.235,"body":"And that's what I'm saying."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":647.295,"endTime":648.585,"body":"There are, there is"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":647.295,"endTime":648.585,"body":"for instance, very"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":648.585,"endTime":649.695,"body":"interesting work that will."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":650.452,"endTime":653.169,"body":"A couple of years ago, also"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":650.452,"endTime":653.169,"body":"by Erica, Steve Gwynne Michael"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":653.169,"endTime":656.249,"body":"Kinsey a couple of colleagues"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":653.169,"endTime":656.249,"body":"there, Max Kinateder, they"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":656.249,"endTime":658.499,"body":"were looking at so-called"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":656.249,"endTime":658.499,"body":"behavioral statements."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":658.589,"endTime":661.019,"body":"So they were saying,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":658.589,"endTime":661.019,"body":"okay, we have a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":661.059,"endTime":661.419,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":661.499,"endTime":663.989,"body":"statements"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":661.499,"endTime":663.989,"body":"we can produce, which in"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":663.989,"endTime":668.069,"body":"very short sentences, they"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":663.989,"endTime":668.069,"body":"tell us what we know about"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":668.069,"endTime":669.329,"body":"human behavior and fire."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":669.329,"endTime":673.049,"body":"So what we actually can say with"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":669.329,"endTime":673.049,"body":"a certain degree of certainty"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":673.139,"endTime":674.249,"body":"that is going to happen."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":674.249,"endTime":676.319,"body":"So one classic example is."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":676.809,"endTime":680.319,"body":"Humans tend to satisfy"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":676.809,"endTime":680.319,"body":"rather than optimize."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":680.349,"endTime":684.415,"body":"So, humans will not necessarily"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":680.349,"endTime":684.415,"body":"pick the exit that will"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":684.415,"endTime":688.045,"body":"give us the short this time,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":684.415,"endTime":688.045,"body":"but they will pick the exit"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":688.045,"endTime":690.025,"body":"in the building that will"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":688.045,"endTime":690.025,"body":"make them arrive safely."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":690.025,"endTime":691.075,"body":"They don't care"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":690.025,"endTime":691.075,"body":"if they're riding."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":691.565,"endTime":694.385,"body":"10 seconds before"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":691.565,"endTime":694.385,"body":"or 10 seconds later."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":694.775,"endTime":698.225,"body":"But you seen instead this"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":694.775,"endTime":698.225,"body":"kind of flawed of optimization"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":698.225,"endTime":701.195,"body":"models, which in one sense,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":698.225,"endTime":701.195,"body":"I understand why they"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":701.195,"endTime":702.305,"body":"are there because okay."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":702.305,"endTime":704.435,"body":"You want to first know"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":702.305,"endTime":704.435,"body":"what is the condition,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":704.465,"endTime":706.955,"body":"the optimal condition in"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":704.465,"endTime":706.955,"body":"order to strive for that."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":707.375,"endTime":710.075,"body":"But they see much more problems,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":707.375,"endTime":710.075,"body":"for instance, understanding"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":710.165,"endTime":713.345,"body":"in understanding how people"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":710.165,"endTime":713.345,"body":"comply to what they're"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":713.355,"endTime":717.235,"body":"told to do rather than,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":713.355,"endTime":717.235,"body":"knowing what is the optimal."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":717.475,"endTime":718.675,"body":"So much more."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":719.63,"endTime":722.57,"body":"At least my view and I'm, and"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":719.63,"endTime":722.57,"body":"I'm very opinionated about"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":722.641,"endTime":722.821,"body":"Um,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":723.05,"endTime":724.79,"body":"much more"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":723.05,"endTime":724.79,"body":"important to put efforts"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":724.791,"endTime":728.814,"body":"into understanding what"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":724.791,"endTime":728.814,"body":"bring to comply, to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":728.844,"endTime":732.28,"body":"information that are given"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":728.844,"endTime":732.28,"body":"either, the building itself."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":732.31,"endTime":732.58,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":733.026,"endTime":736.859,"body":"Environmental features by"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":733.026,"endTime":736.859,"body":"intervention of the, of"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":736.859,"endTime":740.249,"body":"building managers, than putting"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":736.859,"endTime":740.249,"body":"a huge effort in studying"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":740.279,"endTime":744.479,"body":"the exact optimum evacuation"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":740.279,"endTime":744.479,"body":"strategy a building, we"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":744.509,"endTime":745.769,"body":"need something that works."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":746.025,"endTime":749.535,"body":"again, if it takes 10"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":746.025,"endTime":749.535,"body":"seconds, less or 10 seconds"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":749.535,"endTime":752.415,"body":"more to an individual person"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":749.535,"endTime":752.415,"body":"will not make a difference."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":752.495,"endTime":753.635,"body":", so I think there is a."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":754.225,"endTime":757.765,"body":"Wrong allocation of resources"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":754.225,"endTime":757.765,"body":"in researching these terms."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":757.825,"endTime":760.375,"body":"And that probably comes from"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":757.825,"endTime":760.375,"body":"the fact that it's much easier"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":760.645,"endTime":763.285,"body":"to build an optimization model"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":760.645,"endTime":763.285,"body":"rather than doing an experiment."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":763.691,"endTime":765.318,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":763.691,"endTime":765.318,"body":"think in the contrast to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":765.318,"endTime":769.608,"body":"what you say about this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":765.318,"endTime":769.608,"body":"complex modeling of behavior"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":769.608,"endTime":771.558,"body":"and even the route choice."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":772.403,"endTime":775.673,"body":"In contrast to that most of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":772.403,"endTime":775.673,"body":"the currently used models"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":776.063,"endTime":780.143,"body":"would just have some shortest"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":776.063,"endTime":780.143,"body":"path algorithm to decide"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":780.503,"endTime":781.733,"body":"which path you would take."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":781.973,"endTime":785.723,"body":"Maybe some social force"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":781.973,"endTime":785.723,"body":"model to, um, push the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":785.723,"endTime":790.473,"body":"agents from each other,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":785.723,"endTime":790.473,"body":"maybe, maybe some model of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":790.503,"endTime":793.573,"body":"attractiveness of exits,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":790.503,"endTime":793.573,"body":"where you could physically"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":793.673,"endTime":797.443,"body":"alter the, how attractive"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":793.673,"endTime":797.443,"body":"one exit is from another."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":797.833,"endTime":800.949,"body":"But from my experience in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":797.833,"endTime":800.949,"body":"this practical modeling, I"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":800.949,"endTime":805.013,"body":"would say I use it mostly for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":800.949,"endTime":805.013,"body":"engineering not for science,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":805.043,"endTime":808.343,"body":"so I have never ventured into"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":805.043,"endTime":808.343,"body":"writing my own models or."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":808.853,"endTime":811.943,"body":"I've never really went"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":808.853,"endTime":811.943,"body":"too deep beyond what"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":811.943,"endTime":813.053,"body":"my contract required."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":813.053,"endTime":813.563,"body":"me to do."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":813.873,"endTime":815.763,"body":"So ma You know, I'm an engineer."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":815.793,"endTime":819.243,"body":"I, it's not my job to figure"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":815.793,"endTime":819.243,"body":"out the best way when the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":819.243,"endTime":820.508,"body":"tools are on the market."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":820.508,"endTime":823.178,"body":"And they are advertised"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":820.508,"endTime":823.178,"body":"are the industry standard."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":823.178,"endTime":823.448,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":824.138,"endTime":827.654,"body":"So you have this contrast of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":824.138,"endTime":827.654,"body":"what it can be with modeling"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":827.654,"endTime":830.474,"body":"behavior and what it is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":830.973,"endTime":833.836,"body":"mostly, which is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":830.973,"endTime":833.836,"body":"route optimization or."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":833.836,"endTime":837.226,"body":"path optimization And"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":833.836,"endTime":837.226,"body":"just movement calculations"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":837.466,"endTime":839.116,"body":"and there's nothing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":837.466,"endTime":839.116,"body":"wrong with movement."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":839.116,"endTime":839.956,"body":"calculations."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":840.406,"endTime":843.496,"body":"It's just, it's not modeling"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":840.406,"endTime":843.496,"body":"of complex behavior of people."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":844.096,"endTime":848.393,"body":"And Do you think this, creates"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":844.096,"endTime":848.393,"body":"this, let's say dualism in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":848.393,"endTime":850.793,"body":"world of evacuation science?"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":851.073,"endTime":854.02,"body":"I think"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":851.073,"endTime":854.02,"body":"in general terms, the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":854.02,"endTime":855.94,"body":"key is flexibility."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":855.94,"endTime":856.93,"body":"This is the key word."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":857.35,"endTime":860.2,"body":"So when you use evacuation"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":857.35,"endTime":860.2,"body":"models, and I will say many"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":860.2,"endTime":863.14,"body":"commercial model developers"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":860.2,"endTime":863.14,"body":"have understood that it's"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":863.14,"endTime":865.66,"body":"much more important for a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":863.14,"endTime":865.66,"body":"user to be able to control."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":866.155,"endTime":868.855,"body":"the behavior of agents in"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":866.155,"endTime":868.855,"body":"order to be able to represent"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":868.855,"endTime":871.885,"body":"different \"what if\" scenarios"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":868.855,"endTime":871.885,"body":"then to have the most"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":872.095,"endTime":877.105,"body":"optimized algorithm for route"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":872.095,"endTime":877.105,"body":"choice, let's say, or for a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":877.135,"endTime":878.965,"body":"people movement and so on."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":878.965,"endTime":880.575,"body":"So I think that's"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":878.965,"endTime":880.575,"body":"something that."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":881.13,"endTime":883.9,"body":"Many people in the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":881.13,"endTime":883.9,"body":"commercial, uh, evacuation"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":883.9,"endTime":886.566,"body":"model world, have well,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":883.9,"endTime":886.566,"body":"implemented and understood."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":886.926,"endTime":889.566,"body":"The problem is actually"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":886.926,"endTime":889.566,"body":"with researchers."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":889.566,"endTime":892.416,"body":"And I say this with a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":889.566,"endTime":892.416,"body":"lot of pain in my heart,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":893.106,"endTime":899.096,"body":"but there is a full, uh,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":893.106,"endTime":899.096,"body":"body of literature, digs"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":899.266,"endTime":904.816,"body":"a lot into modeling things"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":899.266,"endTime":904.816,"body":"that are not really needed"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":904.816,"endTime":909.226,"body":"for engineers, they are"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":904.816,"endTime":909.226,"body":"actually starting from wrong"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":909.226,"endTime":910.756,"body":"assumptions and that's the real"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":911.072,"endTime":911.402,"body":"that's why"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":911.416,"endTime":915.306,"body":"why a lot, the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":911.416,"endTime":915.306,"body":"efforts for instance, that a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":915.306,"endTime":918.946,"body":"modelers do they start with the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":915.306,"endTime":918.946,"body":"model and then they jump into."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":919.451,"endTime":922.181,"body":"Data and try to validate it"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":919.451,"endTime":922.181,"body":"with data all the way around."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":922.721,"endTime":924.461,"body":"data driven models in"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":922.721,"endTime":924.461,"body":"which they start with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":924.477,"endTime":924.627,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":924.941,"endTime":926.321,"body":"and then"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":924.941,"endTime":926.321,"body":"they try to build them all."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":926.351,"endTime":931.178,"body":"That's a very good starting"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":926.351,"endTime":931.178,"body":"point for an evacuation model."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":931.178,"endTime":932.798,"body":"But don't see these."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":932.828,"endTime":935.828,"body":"I mean, I see these, but I don't"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":932.828,"endTime":935.828,"body":"see as often as I would like it"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":935.828,"endTime":939.278,"body":"to see, because there is still"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":935.828,"endTime":939.278,"body":"of the literature of people"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":939.428,"endTime":941.078,"body":"that have basically never done."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":941.128,"endTime":944.948,"body":"an evacuation experiments"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":941.128,"endTime":944.948,"body":"in their life and they build"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":944.948,"endTime":947.558,"body":"models or they, and even worse"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":944.948,"endTime":947.558,"body":"because that's in principle"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":947.558,"endTime":950.558,"body":"is okay that you are a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":947.558,"endTime":950.558,"body":"specialized modeler and not into"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":950.948,"endTime":957.098,"body":"experiments, but it also, and"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":950.948,"endTime":957.098,"body":"never probably read behavior And"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":957.098,"endTime":959.155,"body":"the actual, experimental data."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":959.155,"endTime":960.175,"body":"And that's the problem."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":960.175,"endTime":963.265,"body":"And that's where you see this"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":960.175,"endTime":963.265,"body":"mismatch, where that's, where"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":963.265,"endTime":966.978,"body":"you see, these publications that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":963.265,"endTime":966.978,"body":"unfortunately even get published"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":966.978,"endTime":972.365,"body":"in scientific journals are"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":966.978,"endTime":972.365,"body":"very little link, to the real"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":972.365,"endTime":976.29,"body":"ward and unfortunately, very"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":972.365,"endTime":976.29,"body":"little use,  to fire engineers"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":976.35,"endTime":979.26,"body":"or in general, to any users"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":976.35,"endTime":979.26,"body":"of evacuation models, because"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":979.68,"endTime":984.66,"body":"seem like, uh, exercises done"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":979.68,"endTime":984.66,"body":"often, I don't know, a graduate"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":984.66,"endTime":987.78,"body":"students or thesis students"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":984.66,"endTime":987.78,"body":"that have to publish something."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":988.31,"endTime":988.58,"body":"PA"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":988.796,"endTime":988.916,"body":"Um,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":988.97,"endTime":989.57,"body":"to publish."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":990.56,"endTime":992.15,"body":"it's mathematically beautiful."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":992.177,"endTime":993.017,"body":"I don't question this."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":993.017,"endTime":996.107,"body":"Maybe some people a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":993.017,"endTime":996.107,"body":"really good at that."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":996.137,"endTime":1000.367,"body":"Maybe better than many of"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":996.137,"endTime":1000.367,"body":"us, but it's very little use"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1000.847,"endTime":1004.087,"body":"dilutes the literature in the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1000.847,"endTime":1004.087,"body":"field and he also has very"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1004.087,"endTime":1006.127,"body":"little use for engineers."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1006.127,"endTime":1008.692,"body":"And again, I'm not arguing"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1006.127,"endTime":1008.692,"body":"that all literature should"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1008.692,"endTime":1012.352,"body":"be a linked to the practical"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1008.692,"endTime":1012.352,"body":"ward, but you should not"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1012.352,"endTime":1014.662,"body":"mislead at least engineers."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1014.662,"endTime":1017.792,"body":"You should not lead them"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1014.662,"endTime":1017.792,"body":"into doing, design mistakes."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1017.892,"endTime":1020.412,"body":"And this is unfortunately what"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1017.892,"endTime":1020.412,"body":"I see because this literature"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1020.412,"endTime":1023.685,"body":"is so big of those kinds of"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1020.412,"endTime":1023.685,"body":"papers, trying to modeling panic"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1023.685,"endTime":1026.065,"body":"or contagion or, , whatever."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1027.1,"endTime":1031.207,"body":"Let's say behavior that has"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1027.1,"endTime":1031.207,"body":"been, uh, deconstructed and,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1031.207,"endTime":1034.927,"body":"dismounted in the literature, in"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1031.207,"endTime":1034.927,"body":"the field of social psychology"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1034.927,"endTime":1038.393,"body":"or similar fields it is actually"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1034.927,"endTime":1038.393,"body":"warring at this point because"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1038.393,"endTime":1041.293,"body":"we, we are not able to stop"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1038.393,"endTime":1041.293,"body":"this, , and they cite each other"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1041.293,"endTime":1042.474,"body":"and, they continue doing this."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1042.474,"endTime":1043.404,"body":"I can make an example."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1043.464,"endTime":1043.854,"body":"example."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1044.497,"endTime":1047.077,"body":"A nice chat at some point"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1044.497,"endTime":1047.077,"body":"with an applied mathematician."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1047.137,"endTime":1049.357,"body":"And he told me something"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1047.137,"endTime":1049.357,"body":"that I always suspect"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1049.357,"endTime":1050.587,"body":"is a crowd modeler."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1051.037,"endTime":1053.527,"body":"And the Emiliano"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1051.037,"endTime":1053.527,"body":"Christiana is from Rome."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1053.587,"endTime":1056.887,"body":"And anytime, you know, there are"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1053.587,"endTime":1056.887,"body":"some people that really fall in"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1056.887,"endTime":1059.334,"body":"love, with certain mathematical"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1056.887,"endTime":1059.334,"body":"equations and they will"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1059.604,"endTime":1059.694,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1060.02,"endTime":1062.624,"body":"in our field"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1060.02,"endTime":1062.624,"body":"to squeeze those everywhere."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1062.864,"endTime":1065.744,"body":"So they say, oh, I can use this"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1062.864,"endTime":1065.744,"body":"also for crowd dynamics and."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1066.224,"endTime":1069.314,"body":"And, for those that instead, try"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1066.224,"endTime":1069.314,"body":"to link this to the real world"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1069.314,"endTime":1071.414,"body":"and, and have a use of this."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1071.414,"endTime":1072.554,"body":"This is painful."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1073.064,"endTime":1075.614,"body":"is painful because you see"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1073.064,"endTime":1075.614,"body":"such a waste of resources."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1075.614,"endTime":1076.454,"body":"So these people could be"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1076.479,"endTime":1076.689,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1076.694,"endTime":1079.424,"body":"brilliant"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1076.694,"endTime":1079.424,"body":"solving, certain problems"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1079.424,"endTime":1082.034,"body":"with evacuation modeling,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1079.424,"endTime":1082.034,"body":"but they putting said so"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1082.034,"endTime":1084.584,"body":"much emphasis on something"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1082.034,"endTime":1084.584,"body":"else that is not needed."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1084.584,"endTime":1086.534,"body":"So that's what we"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1084.584,"endTime":1086.534,"body":"both were saying."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1086.534,"endTime":1086.924,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1086.924,"endTime":1090.467,"body":"We wished that we will"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1086.924,"endTime":1090.467,"body":"have, the right effort."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1090.957,"endTime":1093.697,"body":"Putting the right"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1090.957,"endTime":1093.697,"body":"problems, in our community."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1093.988,"endTime":1096.71,"body":"I think"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1093.988,"endTime":1096.71,"body":"this dilution is not only,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1096.71,"endTime":1098.469,"body":"typical for evacuation science."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1098.699,"endTime":1102.399,"body":"I see that a lot in tunneling"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1098.699,"endTime":1102.399,"body":"example, there's a group of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1102.399,"endTime":1106.029,"body":"researchers who will, determine"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1102.399,"endTime":1106.029,"body":"that back layering distance"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1106.029,"endTime":1109.109,"body":"or critical velocity, The,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1106.029,"endTime":1109.109,"body":"the fourth, , significant"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1109.109,"endTime":1111.229,"body":"digit when, as an engineer"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1111.229,"endTime":1113.399,"body":"is just double it And"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1111.229,"endTime":1113.399,"body":"then make it safe."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1113.639,"endTime":1115.244,"body":"You don't really care that much."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1115.506,"endTime":1120.096,"body":"and as as you mentioned, this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1115.506,"endTime":1120.096,"body":"creates this powerful ecosystem."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1120.696,"endTime":1124.236,"body":"I mean, when it's just one"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1120.696,"endTime":1124.236,"body":"paper that does that or one"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1124.236,"endTime":1127.656,"body":"researcher who does it it can be"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1124.236,"endTime":1127.656,"body":"an error It can be in mistake."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1128.306,"endTime":1132.042,"body":"It can be just a honest"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1128.306,"endTime":1132.042,"body":"misjudgment of a scientist,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1132.492,"endTime":1136.302,"body":"but when it forms an ecosystem"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1132.492,"endTime":1136.302,"body":"where this is continuously"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1136.302,"endTime":1140.179,"body":"repeated, repeated, repeated,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1136.302,"endTime":1140.179,"body":"you Start building on"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1140.179,"endTime":1141.169,"body":"the parallel paradigm."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1141.219,"endTime":1143.642,"body":"You need to build science"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1141.219,"endTime":1143.642,"body":"you need to have paradigms."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1144.062,"endTime":1148.781,"body":"And if, in your case modeling,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1144.062,"endTime":1148.781,"body":"assuming some certain"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1148.781,"endTime":1152.141,"body":"behaviors some certain extreme"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1148.781,"endTime":1152.141,"body":"behaviors that do not have,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1152.193,"endTime":1155.823,"body":"Proof in really evacuation"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1152.193,"endTime":1155.823,"body":"studies, a real fires."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1156.213,"endTime":1158.163,"body":"if that suddenly"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1156.213,"endTime":1158.163,"body":"becomes a paradigm for."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1158.163,"endTime":1160.063,"body":"a part of your field,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1158.163,"endTime":1160.063,"body":"it, this despite the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1160.063,"endTime":1161.523,"body":"field is genuinely lost."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1161.763,"endTime":1165.699,"body":"And as you mentioned, that is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1161.763,"endTime":1165.699,"body":"waste of resources that is waste"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1165.699,"endTime":1170.499,"body":"of human time that this waste"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1165.699,"endTime":1170.499,"body":"of work sometimes, brilliant"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1170.499,"endTime":1173.353,"body":"scientists who are really"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1170.499,"endTime":1173.353,"body":"good at what they're doing."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1173.353,"endTime":1175.599,"body":"For example, applying"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1173.353,"endTime":1175.599,"body":"this mathematical problems"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1175.869,"endTime":1176.859,"body":"to solve something."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1177.279,"endTime":1179.789,"body":"And we are not a big field."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1179.789,"endTime":1181.229,"body":"We don't have people to lose."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1181.229,"endTime":1183.239,"body":"We we need all hands on deck."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1183.239,"endTime":1186.239,"body":"solving important problems,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1183.239,"endTime":1186.239,"body":"of our discipline."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1186.989,"endTime":1190.919,"body":"Do you think may be sometimes"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1186.989,"endTime":1190.919,"body":"entering the spiral can be"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1190.919,"endTime":1194.639,"body":"just a conscious choice because"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1190.919,"endTime":1194.639,"body":"it may be somewhat easier or"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1194.979,"endTime":1197.309,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1194.979,"endTime":1197.309,"body":"honestly don't think so."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1197.309,"endTime":1201.929,"body":"I think it's generally a genuine"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1197.309,"endTime":1201.929,"body":"lack of understanding of the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1201.929,"endTime":1206.722,"body":"literature, which leads to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1201.929,"endTime":1206.722,"body":"basically sticking to a certain"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1206.722,"endTime":1209.842,"body":"type of terminology and a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1206.722,"endTime":1209.842,"body":"certain type of assumptions that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1210.262,"endTime":1214.432,"body":"let's say if we are split and we"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1210.262,"endTime":1214.432,"body":"are, , let's say a percentage of"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1214.432,"endTime":1217.282,"body":"people that claim that we should"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1214.432,"endTime":1217.282,"body":"modeling panic, a contagion"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1217.282,"endTime":1219.412,"body":"and so on, and let's say."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1220.025,"endTime":1224.375,"body":"Part of the community is trying"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1220.025,"endTime":1224.375,"body":"to explain over and over and"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1224.375,"endTime":1226.205,"body":"over in the last 30, 40 years."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1226.205,"endTime":1228.779,"body":"I mean, this morning we"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1226.205,"endTime":1228.779,"body":"were discussing it that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1228.799,"endTime":1231.729,"body":"the first papers discussing"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1228.799,"endTime":1231.729,"body":"panic misconceptions, all"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1231.739,"endTime":1233.739,"body":"the come from the seventies"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1231.739,"endTime":1233.739,"body":"or things like this."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1233.739,"endTime":1235.869,"body":"So it's still that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1233.739,"endTime":1235.869,"body":"we're battling."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1236.464,"endTime":1240.154,"body":"I think there is a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1236.464,"endTime":1240.154,"body":"genuinely honest problem"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1240.154,"endTime":1243.874,"body":"with the community is"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1240.154,"endTime":1243.874,"body":"not able to intervene to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1243.904,"endTime":1245.764,"body":"spread this misconception."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1245.764,"endTime":1248.464,"body":"And in the, in our case,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1245.764,"endTime":1248.464,"body":"this is also very much fed by"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1248.464,"endTime":1252.404,"body":"media he's fed, by, you know,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1248.464,"endTime":1252.404,"body":"everything that you watch"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1252.494,"endTime":1255.074,"body":"outside the scientific world"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1252.494,"endTime":1255.074,"body":"because that's the problem that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1255.074,"endTime":1259.104,"body":"we have as well, maybe other"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1255.074,"endTime":1259.104,"body":"domain, , modeling of fires."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1259.814,"endTime":1263.614,"body":"It is not such a big problem,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1259.814,"endTime":1263.614,"body":"in our domain, the thing is"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1263.614,"endTime":1268.564,"body":"that when you turn on the TV"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1263.614,"endTime":1268.564,"body":"or open a newspaper online,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1269.104,"endTime":1272.614,"body":"always this tendency to have a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1269.104,"endTime":1272.614,"body":"sensational titles and so on."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1272.614,"endTime":1275.464,"body":"So they want to use"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1272.614,"endTime":1275.464,"body":"kind of extreme."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1275.964,"endTime":1279.749,"body":"wording and depict this extreme"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1275.964,"endTime":1279.749,"body":"behavior, even if they didn't"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1279.749,"endTime":1282.089,"body":"happen because their goal"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1279.749,"endTime":1282.089,"body":"is often to sell newspapers"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1282.569,"endTime":1285.702,"body":"rather than, actually,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1282.569,"endTime":1285.702,"body":"telling what, what happened."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1285.702,"endTime":1289.152,"body":"But I said, I don't think"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1285.702,"endTime":1289.152,"body":"there is a need an agenda in"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1289.152,"endTime":1293.802,"body":"a way it's more like a genuine"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1289.152,"endTime":1293.802,"body":"mistake made by a portion"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1293.802,"endTime":1294.762,"body":"of the community that is."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1295.215,"endTime":1297.889,"body":"comes another world I"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1295.215,"endTime":1297.889,"body":"mentioned the world of applied"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1297.889,"endTime":1301.819,"body":"mathematics, but it can be"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1297.889,"endTime":1301.819,"body":"applied physics or anything"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1301.849,"endTime":1306.289,"body":"that is not to the core"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1301.849,"endTime":1306.289,"body":"literature or in the field of"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1306.289,"endTime":1307.579,"body":"psychology, social psychology."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1307.579,"endTime":1311.025,"body":"And so on that explained"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1307.579,"endTime":1311.025,"body":"us this mechanism, of human"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1311.025,"endTime":1312.182,"body":"behavior and fire, work."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1312.599,"endTime":1315.869,"body":"so this is what I think is"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1312.599,"endTime":1315.869,"body":"the, is the problem nowadays."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1315.899,"endTime":1319.359,"body":"And to be honest with you,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1315.899,"endTime":1319.359,"body":"I'm even more worried now"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1319.389,"endTime":1324.879,"body":"with the new trends of"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1319.389,"endTime":1324.879,"body":"science and machine learning"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1324.879,"endTime":1329.229,"body":"and so on, because these are"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1324.879,"endTime":1329.229,"body":"fantastic tools, but they,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1329.515,"endTime":1331.925,"body":"often start from another"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1329.515,"endTime":1331.925,"body":"premise that we don't want"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1331.925,"endTime":1335.495,"body":"to understand the fundamental"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1331.925,"endTime":1335.495,"body":"mechanisms, we want to identify"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1335.495,"endTime":1336.995,"body":"patterns in what happens."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1337.895,"endTime":1341.375,"body":"And often this leads to the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1337.895,"endTime":1341.375,"body":"blind trusting the data,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1341.465,"endTime":1344.285,"body":"which is the biggest problem"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1341.465,"endTime":1344.285,"body":"that we have in this case."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1344.675,"endTime":1348.695,"body":"And which I think we should"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1344.675,"endTime":1348.695,"body":"be very careful about because"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1348.695,"endTime":1352.865,"body":"there is a huge risk that we"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1348.695,"endTime":1352.865,"body":"will end up now with a whole"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1352.865,"endTime":1357.36,"body":"bunch of new literature, , in"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1352.865,"endTime":1357.36,"body":"the domain of evacuation using"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1357.36,"endTime":1359.82,"body":"these kind of data science"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1357.36,"endTime":1359.82,"body":"approaches with machine learning"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1359.82,"endTime":1363.81,"body":"and so on, may really start"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1359.82,"endTime":1363.81,"body":"from data that have problems."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1363.81,"endTime":1367.62,"body":"And instead they take them"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1363.81,"endTime":1367.62,"body":"as good by default and come"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1367.62,"endTime":1368.73,"body":"up with wrong conclusions."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1368.76,"endTime":1371.19,"body":"And as I say, don't"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1368.76,"endTime":1371.19,"body":"get me wrong because."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1371.775,"endTime":1375.795,"body":"Big, a big enthusiast, myself"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1371.775,"endTime":1375.795,"body":"of this kind of data science"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1375.795,"endTime":1377.895,"body":"approach and machine learning."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1377.895,"endTime":1382.755,"body":"But I just have to put down"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1377.895,"endTime":1382.755,"body":"a warning there for our field"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1382.755,"endTime":1387.429,"body":"specifically because there is"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1382.755,"endTime":1387.429,"body":"this risk, to data, and get,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1387.429,"endTime":1388.679,"body":"start getting models that."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1389.141,"endTime":1391.955,"body":"Down conclusions that do"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1389.141,"endTime":1391.955,"body":"not make too much sense just"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1391.955,"endTime":1394.175,"body":"because we are not putting"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1391.955,"endTime":1394.175,"body":"efforts in understanding the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1394.175,"endTime":1397.415,"body":"fundamentals what is happening,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1394.175,"endTime":1397.415,"body":"but just trying to identify"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1397.445,"endTime":1398.015,"body":"patterns"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1398.045,"endTime":1398.975,"body":"into what happens"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1399.248,"endTime":1402.418,"body":"so in my"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1399.248,"endTime":1402.418,"body":"field using machine learning"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1402.418,"endTime":1405.604,"body":"or artificial and any type"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1402.418,"endTime":1405.604,"body":"of big data tool actually"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1405.818,"endTime":1409.138,"body":"is, let's say straightforward"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1405.818,"endTime":1409.138,"body":"because I'm working with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1409.138,"endTime":1410.158,"body":"fundamental physics,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1410.158,"endTime":1412.284,"body":"the conservation of energy"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1410.158,"endTime":1412.284,"body":"in the mass is always"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1412.284,"endTime":1414.144,"body":"the same the way how,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1414.656,"endTime":1416.666,"body":"I don't know, pressure"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1414.656,"endTime":1416.666,"body":"or density changes"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1416.666,"endTime":1417.476,"body":"with temperature."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1417.776,"endTime":1420.626,"body":"I can describe this with an"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1417.776,"endTime":1420.626,"body":"equation, even if I have very,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1420.626,"endTime":1425.769,"body":"very complex relation between"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1420.626,"endTime":1425.769,"body":"the group of variables and my"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1425.799,"endTime":1426.429,"body":"outcome."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1426.438,"endTime":1430.829,"body":"It is in the physical low"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1426.438,"endTime":1430.829,"body":"and here by data, I assume"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1430.959,"endTime":1434.939,"body":"you mean the common tools"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1430.959,"endTime":1434.939,"body":"for evacuation modelings,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1434.969,"endTime":1438.719,"body":"which would be surveys, which"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1434.969,"endTime":1438.719,"body":"would be data collected from,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1439.044,"endTime":1441.174,"body":"evacuation drills"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1439.044,"endTime":1441.174,"body":"and real incidents."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1441.564,"endTime":1444.85,"body":"It would be a mathematical"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1441.564,"endTime":1444.85,"body":"data describing the movement"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1444.85,"endTime":1448.09,"body":"of people, but mathematical"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1444.85,"endTime":1448.09,"body":"data cannot describe the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1448.09,"endTime":1451.66,"body":"behavior of people or their"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1448.09,"endTime":1451.66,"body":"choices, or at least not in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1451.66,"endTime":1454.99,"body":"such a straightforward way as"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1451.66,"endTime":1454.99,"body":"I can describe the motion of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1454.99,"endTime":1458.31,"body":"smoke or heat transfer through"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1454.99,"endTime":1458.31,"body":"a partition in the building."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1458.97,"endTime":1464.16,"body":"And so you are really like Your"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1458.97,"endTime":1464.16,"body":"data by assumption has this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1464.16,"endTime":1469.544,"body":"level of There is that you first"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1464.16,"endTime":1469.544,"body":"need to understand that the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1469.544,"endTime":1472.604,"body":"variability in your data set"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1469.544,"endTime":1472.604,"body":"and you first need to understand"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1472.904,"endTime":1477.134,"body":"what your data represents before"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1472.904,"endTime":1477.134,"body":"you drop it into a black book"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1477.144,"endTime":1479.294,"body":"seeking for hidden relations."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1479.324,"endTime":1480.464,"body":"Is that what you meant?"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1480.618,"endTime":1482.328,"body":"I think this"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1480.618,"endTime":1482.328,"body":"is exactly what I mean."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1482.358,"endTime":1485.561,"body":"And sometime I make"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1482.358,"endTime":1485.561,"body":"decent example."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1485.561,"endTime":1488.021,"body":"When I talk about this, I don't"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1485.561,"endTime":1488.021,"body":"know how many of you are chess"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1488.021,"endTime":1491.351,"body":"players, but you've probably"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1488.021,"endTime":1491.351,"body":"heard the story of alpha"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1491.351,"endTime":1494.381,"body":"zero, this super software that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1491.351,"endTime":1494.381,"body":"has been built learning from"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1494.381,"endTime":1498.701,"body":"millions of chess games and the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1494.381,"endTime":1498.701,"body":"game and actually having one"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1498.701,"endTime":1501.281,"body":"of the main grand master number"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1498.701,"endTime":1501.281,"body":"one in one ofMagnus Carlssen"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1501.401,"endTime":1505.089,"body":"and learning the software that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1501.401,"endTime":1505.089,"body":"use this kind of, algorithm"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1505.089,"endTime":1508.273,"body":"carying just about the final"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1505.089,"endTime":1508.273,"body":"outcome, not about the chest"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1508.273,"endTime":1511.123,"body":"theories on everything that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1508.273,"endTime":1511.123,"body":"we w we know from the theory."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1511.723,"endTime":1515.563,"body":"in that context, this works"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1511.723,"endTime":1515.563,"body":"really well because assumptions"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1515.563,"endTime":1519.643,"body":"to start with, so the movement"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1515.563,"endTime":1519.643,"body":"of the pieces are what they are."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1519.643,"endTime":1523.513,"body":"So there is no, let's say a M B"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1523.719,"endTime":1524.439,"body":"We showed them"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1524.893,"endTime":1525.673,"body":"a straight line."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1525.703,"endTime":1526.633,"body":"They move diagonally."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1526.663,"endTime":1527.143,"body":"That's it."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1527.563,"endTime":1528.853,"body":"So instead."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1528.916,"endTime":1533.086,"body":"What we see in our field is"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1528.916,"endTime":1533.086,"body":"that there are also aspects and"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1533.086,"endTime":1537.106,"body":"assumptions that are really,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1533.086,"endTime":1537.106,"body":"questionable sometimes, and"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1537.106,"endTime":1542.046,"body":"are they're really object"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1537.106,"endTime":1542.046,"body":"of, debates how and why"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1542.046,"endTime":1544.34,"body":"certain behavior, occur."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1544.36,"endTime":1547.07,"body":"and also they are depending"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1544.36,"endTime":1547.07,"body":"on the local conditions"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1547.07,"endTime":1549.83,"body":"that you have, because if"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1547.07,"endTime":1549.83,"body":"you have a very large data"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1549.83,"endTime":1552.38,"body":"set, I mean, I spoke with a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1549.83,"endTime":1552.38,"body":"very brilliant researchers."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1552.82,"endTime":1556.063,"body":"With the massive data sets"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1552.82,"endTime":1556.063,"body":"of, pedestrian movement."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1556.063,"endTime":1559.183,"body":"Like for instance, I think"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1556.063,"endTime":1559.183,"body":"that the group that has the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1559.183,"endTime":1561.973,"body":"largest collection of data"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1559.183,"endTime":1561.973,"body":"sets on this, it's a university"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1561.973,"endTime":1565.123,"body":"of Eindhoven with Alessandra"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1561.973,"endTime":1565.123,"body":"Corvette and Federico Tasco."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1565.153,"endTime":1568.513,"body":"These guys, they put sensors"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1565.153,"endTime":1568.513,"body":"in train station, they collect"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1568.543,"endTime":1569.773,"body":"millions of trajectories."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1569.773,"endTime":1572.353,"body":"So it's really"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1569.773,"endTime":1572.353,"body":"fascinating what they do."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1572.963,"endTime":1574.993,"body":"But imagine even with"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1572.963,"endTime":1574.993,"body":"this kind of huge."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1575.593,"endTime":1579.643,"body":"This will still be a very"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1575.593,"endTime":1579.643,"body":"specific population in a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1579.643,"endTime":1583.903,"body":"very specific context, in a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1579.643,"endTime":1583.903,"body":"very specific environment."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1583.903,"endTime":1588.613,"body":"So to generalize findings, eh,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1583.903,"endTime":1588.613,"body":"he needs another step he needs."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1588.913,"endTime":1591.403,"body":"Like I, I see those two"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1588.913,"endTime":1591.403,"body":"things as complimentary."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1591.433,"endTime":1594.923,"body":"I'm really happy that these"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1591.433,"endTime":1594.923,"body":"heifers are hip are happening"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1595.373,"endTime":1597.893,"body":"I think they're really good,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1595.373,"endTime":1597.893,"body":"but we cannot just rely on"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1597.893,"endTime":1602.183,"body":"those models try to identify"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1597.893,"endTime":1602.183,"body":"patterns in these big data."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1602.483,"endTime":1603.893,"body":"We also need to try to dig up."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1604.698,"endTime":1607.338,"body":"Into understanding what are"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1604.698,"endTime":1607.338,"body":"the fundamental processes?"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1607.905,"endTime":1610.485,"body":"And theories that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1607.905,"endTime":1610.485,"body":"can explain we see."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1610.485,"endTime":1613.465,"body":"That's why  hope that many"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1610.485,"endTime":1613.465,"body":"of the people that work"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1613.465,"endTime":1614.935,"body":"with these methods probably"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1613.465,"endTime":1614.935,"body":"wouldn't agree with me."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1615.325,"endTime":1617.785,"body":"don't think that those"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1615.325,"endTime":1617.785,"body":"data science methods"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1617.785,"endTime":1620.125,"body":"should substitute what we"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1617.785,"endTime":1620.125,"body":"have been doing so far."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1620.125,"endTime":1623.018,"body":"They should compliment it, but"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1620.125,"endTime":1623.018,"body":"we cannot have this a subsidy."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1623.435,"endTime":1627.341,"body":"our current, theoretical"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1623.435,"endTime":1627.341,"body":"methods, when it comes to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1627.491,"endTime":1629.621,"body":"those types of data, for"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1627.491,"endTime":1629.621,"body":"which we have a lot of"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1629.621,"endTime":1630.881,"body":"uncertainty to begin with."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1630.911,"endTime":1634.031,"body":"And as I say, we may"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1630.911,"endTime":1634.031,"body":"argue for hours, what"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1634.061,"endTime":1635.471,"body":"domains of fire science."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1635.471,"endTime":1637.421,"body":"They have those kinds"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1635.471,"endTime":1637.421,"body":"of uncertainties, which"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1637.421,"endTime":1638.171,"body":"ones they have not."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1638.621,"endTime":1641.321,"body":"heard a lot of discussion"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1638.621,"endTime":1641.321,"body":"for instance, and I'm not"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1641.861,"endTime":1643.541,"body":"expert in that, but I've"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1643.652,"endTime":1644.732,"body":"I've"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1643.652,"endTime":1644.732,"body":"heard a little discussion."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1644.732,"endTime":1645.962,"body":"on Why"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1646.061,"endTime":1648.041,"body":"use"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1646.061,"endTime":1648.041,"body":"deterministic models a lot"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1648.041,"endTime":1648.941,"body":"infire modelling than, much"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1648.992,"endTime":1649.412,"body":"watch more"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1649.931,"endTime":1650.351,"body":"models."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1650.381,"endTime":1651.141,"body":"And there,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1651.192,"endTime":1651.972,"body":"there, you have a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1653.331,"endTime":1654.711,"body":"model,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1653.331,"endTime":1654.711,"body":"mostly because you have"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1654.711,"endTime":1656.751,"body":"a physical phenomenon,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1654.711,"endTime":1656.751,"body":"but even in that physical"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1656.751,"endTime":1659.421,"body":"phenomenon, there are so many"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1656.751,"endTime":1659.421,"body":"things that can impact it."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1659.421,"endTime":1663.751,"body":"So many boundary conditions and,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1659.421,"endTime":1663.751,"body":"and all sorts of other variables"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1663.751,"endTime":1664.891,"body":"that we cannot fully control."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1665.38,"endTime":1668.5,"body":"In our subfield of evacuation"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1665.38,"endTime":1668.5,"body":"this is evident to me that we"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1668.5,"endTime":1672.7,"body":"are not yet at the stage of"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1668.5,"endTime":1672.7,"body":"science understanding of which"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1672.7,"endTime":1676.46,"body":"we can completely control,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1672.7,"endTime":1676.46,"body":", and fully understand what"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1676.46,"endTime":1677.84,"body":"leads to certain behavior."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1678.08,"endTime":1681.396,"body":"So we need to be really cautious"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1678.08,"endTime":1681.396,"body":"when we use, data science"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1681.396,"endTime":1683.28,"body":"approaches, because they often."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1684.105,"endTime":1685.305,"body":"Take the data as they are."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1685.305,"endTime":1686.295,"body":"They don't question them."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1686.295,"endTime":1686.595,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1687.085,"endTime":1687.655,"body":"the next day."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1687.705,"endTime":1688.845,"body":"and I think"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1687.705,"endTime":1688.845,"body":"there are groups that are"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1688.845,"endTime":1692.625,"body":"trying to do this in also"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1688.845,"endTime":1692.625,"body":"to try to understand how"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1692.645,"endTime":1692.765,"body":"Oh,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1692.775,"endTime":1694.575,"body":"treat these"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1692.775,"endTime":1694.575,"body":"kinds of data in order to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1694.575,"endTime":1697.711,"body":"understand, because sensor,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1694.575,"endTime":1697.711,"body":"any device, anything can have"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1697.991,"endTime":1701.351,"body":"fault or can, there can be a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1697.991,"endTime":1701.351,"body":"inner problem with the data  so"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1701.351,"endTime":1704.231,"body":"that's why I think we should"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1701.351,"endTime":1704.231,"body":"be very cautious with this."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1704.231,"endTime":1706.271,"body":"And, and maybe I don't want"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1704.231,"endTime":1706.271,"body":"to sound over negative, but"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1706.511,"endTime":1708.431,"body":"I think these are very good"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1706.511,"endTime":1708.431,"body":"tools, but they should be"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1708.431,"endTime":1711.761,"body":"seen as complimentary, not as"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1708.431,"endTime":1711.761,"body":"a substitution to everything"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1711.761,"endTime":1714.881,"body":"that we've been doing so far"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1711.761,"endTime":1714.881,"body":"regarding fundamental theories."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1715.206,"endTime":1716.756,"body":"I have a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1715.206,"endTime":1716.756,"body":"challenging thought for you."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1717.162,"endTime":1720.847,"body":"if I look Well, in the years"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1717.162,"endTime":1720.847,"body":"of development of the tools"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1720.847,"endTime":1723.967,"body":"we use to predict, evacuation"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1720.847,"endTime":1723.967,"body":"processes and buildings."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1724.597,"endTime":1726.967,"body":"whether you go back to like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1724.597,"endTime":1726.967,"body":"seventies, eighties, you use"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1726.967,"endTime":1730.897,"body":"graphs to solve it on a piece"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1726.967,"endTime":1730.897,"body":"of paper, or you use the first"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1730.897,"endTime":1734.167,"body":"spreadsheets to calculate it"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1730.897,"endTime":1734.167,"body":"in computer, or you start going"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1734.167,"endTime":1737.647,"body":"into computer models which were"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1734.167,"endTime":1737.647,"body":"it's a glorified spreadsheets,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1738.067,"endTime":1741.374,"body":"or you go into models that model"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1738.067,"endTime":1741.374,"body":"that go with, you know, movement"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1741.374,"endTime":1744.664,"body":"trajectories and calculate"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1741.374,"endTime":1744.664,"body":"parts, social forces, and so on."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1744.934,"endTime":1746.074,"body":"Or even you jump into."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1746.524,"endTime":1747.004,"body":"machine"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1747.004,"endTime":1751.067,"body":"learning, You still have"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1747.004,"endTime":1751.067,"body":"the exact same constraint"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1751.157,"endTime":1754.134,"body":"related to your boundary"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1751.157,"endTime":1754.134,"body":"of the human decision."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1754.134,"endTime":1754.554,"body":"process."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1754.584,"endTime":1758.094,"body":"like in every single of these"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1754.584,"endTime":1758.094,"body":"tools, you are constrained by"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1758.094,"endTime":1761.984,"body":"the exact same limitation of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1758.094,"endTime":1761.984,"body":"not knowing the, principles"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1762.014,"endTime":1764.117,"body":"behind human behaviors."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1764.117,"endTime":1767.794,"body":"So maybe if that's the case for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1764.117,"endTime":1767.794,"body":"all from the simplest, tool to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1767.794,"endTime":1773.509,"body":"the advance or a modern tool you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1767.794,"endTime":1773.509,"body":"have, maybe that's a Place where"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1773.509,"endTime":1777.889,"body":"you should push your heard of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1773.509,"endTime":1777.889,"body":"evacuation scientists to solve."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1777.889,"endTime":1779.569,"body":"maybe we need a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1777.889,"endTime":1779.569,"body":"standardized model."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1779.569,"endTime":1782.989,"body":"of a human behavior that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1779.569,"endTime":1782.989,"body":"could be just applied in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1783.049,"endTime":1786.319,"body":"research instead of, trying to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1783.049,"endTime":1786.319,"body":"figure it out, from scratch."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1787.046,"endTime":1790.416,"body":"what would be this, if you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1787.046,"endTime":1790.416,"body":"had the power to just solve"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1790.416,"endTime":1792.629,"body":"it, instantly which path"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1790.416,"endTime":1792.629,"body":"would you, would you go"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1792.629,"endTime":1795.086,"body":"and, what would you take to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1792.629,"endTime":1795.086,"body":"deliver that to the community?"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1795.6,"endTime":1797.31,"body":"I mean,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1795.6,"endTime":1797.31,"body":"there have been efforts in"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1797.31,"endTime":1801.54,"body":"this direction, at least to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1797.31,"endTime":1801.54,"body":"understand some of the key"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1801.75,"endTime":1803.91,"body":"variables and a key mechanism."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1803.91,"endTime":1805.05,"body":"So you wouldn't be able to fire."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1805.12,"endTime":1810.04,"body":"And as I said, I think"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1805.12,"endTime":1810.04,"body":"exercise that all models."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1810.56,"endTime":1815.06,"body":"Do is to take indeed what I"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1810.56,"endTime":1815.06,"body":"mentioned before this behavioral"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1815.06,"endTime":1819.734,"body":"statements, are a list of"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1815.06,"endTime":1819.734,"body":"statements that describe what"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1819.734,"endTime":1822.427,"body":"happens with humans, during a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1819.734,"endTime":1822.427,"body":"fire emergency what do they do?"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1822.967,"endTime":1825.007,"body":"And try to violate"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1822.967,"endTime":1825.007,"body":"their assumptions"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1825.007,"endTime":1826.177,"body":"again, against those."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1826.177,"endTime":1829.267,"body":"So to see there are"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1826.177,"endTime":1829.267,"body":"assumptions, hold against this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1829.353,"endTime":1829.863,"body":"That's good."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1830.197,"endTime":1832.677,"body":"now as a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1830.197,"endTime":1832.677,"body":"researcher and also fortunately,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1832.677,"endTime":1834.657,"body":"as mentors of researchers,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1832.677,"endTime":1834.657,"body":"what they tell them."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1835.372,"endTime":1837.922,"body":", every time that you write a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1835.372,"endTime":1837.922,"body":"research paper in which you"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1837.922,"endTime":1841.574,"body":"are investigating a specific"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1837.922,"endTime":1841.574,"body":"population or a specific,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1841.574,"endTime":1845.049,"body":"scenario and so on, to create"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1841.574,"endTime":1845.049,"body":"these behavioral statements."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1845.049,"endTime":1848.979,"body":"So try to create simple"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1845.049,"endTime":1848.979,"body":"statement that concisely."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1849.599,"endTime":1853.889,"body":"Describe, what actually happened"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1849.599,"endTime":1853.889,"body":"in that given situation so"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1853.889,"endTime":1857.159,"body":"that a modeler can take this"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1853.889,"endTime":1857.159,"body":"statement and use it as a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1857.159,"endTime":1860.699,"body":"benchmark the assumptions"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1857.159,"endTime":1860.699,"body":"that are used in the model."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1860.699,"endTime":1863.669,"body":"Because as I said, we do"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1860.699,"endTime":1863.669,"body":"this exercise, if we take"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1863.669,"endTime":1867.579,"body":"this knowledge that we have"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1863.669,"endTime":1867.579,"body":"nowadays, and we compare it,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1867.579,"endTime":1871.469,"body":"with models, we will definitely"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1867.579,"endTime":1871.469,"body":"find some models that violate"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1871.499,"endTime":1873.389,"body":"through their assumptions,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1871.499,"endTime":1873.389,"body":"some of these statements."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1874.619,"endTime":1876.749,"body":"as I say, the trends that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1874.619,"endTime":1876.749,"body":"I see, especially in the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1876.749,"endTime":1879.719,"body":"commercial world, and that's"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1876.749,"endTime":1879.719,"body":"a, a bit strange because"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1879.719,"endTime":1883.109,"body":"I would have expected more"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1879.719,"endTime":1883.109,"body":"researchers to keep up with."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1883.859,"endTime":1885.609,"body":"Actually see it much more"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1883.859,"endTime":1885.609,"body":"in the commercial world."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1886.419,"endTime":1888.819,"body":"model developers in the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1886.419,"endTime":1888.819,"body":"evacuation world are trying to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1888.819,"endTime":1892.059,"body":"actually give flexibility to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1888.819,"endTime":1892.059,"body":"their model so that they, at"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1892.059,"endTime":1895.416,"body":"least you can make sure that you"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1892.059,"endTime":1895.416,"body":"can, calibrate the model in a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1895.416,"endTime":1898.206,"body":"way that doesn't violate certain"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1895.416,"endTime":1898.206,"body":"assumptions, that you have."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1898.236,"endTime":1901.574,"body":"But as I said, in, in the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1898.236,"endTime":1901.574,"body":"research world unfortunately,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1901.657,"endTime":1905.087,"body":"it happens often that want"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1901.657,"endTime":1905.087,"body":"to reinvent the wheel from"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1905.087,"endTime":1908.302,"body":"scratch and that's not"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1905.087,"endTime":1908.302,"body":"probably the right approach."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1908.332,"endTime":1912.915,"body":"I mean, if I will never"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1908.332,"endTime":1912.915,"body":"imagistic and decide what to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1912.915,"endTime":1915.495,"body":"do with the research funding"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1912.915,"endTime":1915.495,"body":"in the vacation world, in"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1915.495,"endTime":1918.855,"body":"the world, I would basically"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1915.495,"endTime":1918.855,"body":"put 90% of my money on data"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1918.855,"endTime":1920.625,"body":"collection and theory and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1920.671,"endTime":1920.925,"body":"The,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1920.925,"endTime":1922.625,"body":"the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1920.925,"endTime":1922.625,"body":"modeling be done by the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1923.001,"endTime":1923.151,"body":"um,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1923.415,"endTime":1925.355,"body":"model"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1923.415,"endTime":1925.355,"body":"developers in companies."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1925.355,"endTime":1928.745,"body":"They probably are much better"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1925.355,"endTime":1928.745,"body":"writing codes than all of us."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1929.055,"endTime":1931.515,"body":"is at least how I"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1929.055,"endTime":1931.515,"body":"will, how we'll do it,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1931.565,"endTime":1933.545,"body":"so"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1931.565,"endTime":1933.545,"body":"these rules could be, Or"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1933.545,"endTime":1936.725,"body":"can be applied as some sort"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1933.545,"endTime":1936.725,"body":"of sanity check if you're"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1936.725,"endTime":1937.625,"body":"modeling makes sense."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1937.625,"endTime":1937.895,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1938.446,"endTime":1939.406,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1938.446,"endTime":1939.406,"body":"that's the idea."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1939.406,"endTime":1943.253,"body":"So I mean to, try to benchmark"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1939.406,"endTime":1943.253,"body":"the assumptions that you use"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1943.703,"endTime":1946.813,"body":"against athose simple rules"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1943.703,"endTime":1946.813,"body":"and, you know, there have"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1946.813,"endTime":1949.753,"body":"been simple rules defined"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1946.813,"endTime":1949.753,"body":"in different domains of the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1949.753,"endTime":1951.913,"body":"evacuation world that have been"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1949.753,"endTime":1951.913,"body":"these, be able to statements"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1951.913,"endTime":1954.232,"body":"that come from our own community"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1951.913,"endTime":1954.232,"body":"for fire safety science."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1954.822,"endTime":1957.181,"body":"for instance, there are"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1954.822,"endTime":1957.181,"body":"a lot of, efforts done in"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1957.181,"endTime":1959.551,"body":"the pedestrian, evacuation"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1957.181,"endTime":1959.551,"body":"dynamics community,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1960.121,"endTime":1963.326,"body":"instance, in identifying,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1960.121,"endTime":1963.326,"body":"rules of, interactions"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1963.326,"endTime":1964.796,"body":"between people in a crowd."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1965.156,"endTime":1968.996,"body":"So at a more microscopic"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1965.156,"endTime":1968.996,"body":"level, see, how does a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1969.266,"endTime":1970.946,"body":"lane of people get formed?"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1971.501,"endTime":1976.511,"body":"Brilliant researching this or"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1971.501,"endTime":1976.511,"body":"how actually queuing happens."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1976.551,"endTime":1979.981,"body":"So, trying to extract those"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1976.551,"endTime":1979.981,"body":"rules from the individual"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1979.981,"endTime":1983.551,"body":"papers, boil them down in"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1979.981,"endTime":1983.551,"body":"simple statements and then"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1983.551,"endTime":1987.091,"body":"benchmark the models that we"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1983.551,"endTime":1987.091,"body":"have out there against those."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1987.511,"endTime":1988.981,"body":"see, does this get violated?"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1989.521,"endTime":1993.121,"body":"To begin with, is this inbuilt"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1989.521,"endTime":1993.121,"body":"in the defaults of the models?"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1993.721,"endTime":1996.871,"body":"we modify the default so that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1993.721,"endTime":1996.871,"body":"at least we can tune the model"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1996.871,"endTime":1999.181,"body":"in a way that these assumptions"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1996.871,"endTime":1999.181,"body":"are not violated any more?"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1999.181,"endTime":2003.261,"body":"So this is the kind of"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":1999.181,"endTime":2003.261,"body":"benchmarking work that I would"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2003.261,"endTime":2004.851,"body":"like to see more and more."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2004.851,"endTime":2006.981,"body":"And I mean, it's all linked"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2004.851,"endTime":2006.981,"body":"to the efforts that have been"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2006.981,"endTime":2010.591,"body":"done over the years in and"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2006.981,"endTime":2010.591,"body":"validating, evacuation models."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2010.591,"endTime":2011.131,"body":"You know, this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2011.187,"endTime":2011.457,"body":"Y,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2011.491,"endTime":2011.911,"body":"of my."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2012.012,"endTime":2014.74,"body":"main, life mission as"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2012.012,"endTime":2014.74,"body":"a researcher to develop"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2014.74,"endTime":2018.4,"body":"standardized testing for"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2014.74,"endTime":2018.4,"body":"over evacuation models."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2018.85,"endTime":2019.45,"body":"But as I said,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2019.48,"endTime":2022.21,"body":"as I said, we"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2019.48,"endTime":2022.21,"body":"need to have another step the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2022.21,"endTime":2028.12,"body":"community trying to make their"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2022.21,"endTime":2028.12,"body":"simple enough to be directly"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2028.12,"endTime":2030.28,"body":"implemented into models."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2030.51,"endTime":2032.64,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2030.51,"endTime":2032.64,"body":"have one more challenging."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2032.64,"endTime":2033.75,"body":"One asset."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2033.78,"endTime":2037.61,"body":"so I think in most of these"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2033.78,"endTime":2037.61,"body":"approaches, we focus very much"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2037.61,"endTime":2042.02,"body":"on the behavior of a single"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2037.61,"endTime":2042.02,"body":"agent or a single person,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2042.02,"endTime":2046.442,"body":"that evacuate, but Do we"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2042.02,"endTime":2046.442,"body":"truly need this microscopic"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2046.442,"endTime":2050.619,"body":"approach to simulate the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2046.442,"endTime":2050.619,"body":"population, you know, to see"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2050.619,"endTime":2055.102,"body":"large crowd patterns to see"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2050.619,"endTime":2055.102,"body":"queuing, is, this the only"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2055.102,"endTime":2058.774,"body":"way, because we started this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2055.102,"endTime":2058.774,"body":"with the issues with papers"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2058.774,"endTime":2062.927,"body":"and his part of the science"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2058.774,"endTime":2062.927,"body":"that goes in a slightly wrong"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2062.927,"endTime":2066.552,"body":"way, because they misunderstand"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2062.927,"endTime":2066.552,"body":"some of the assumptions and,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2066.604,"endTime":2069.244,"body":"to do things that are"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2066.604,"endTime":2069.244,"body":"putting a lot of effort"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2069.244,"endTime":2070.114,"body":"in researching things."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2070.114,"endTime":2071.344,"body":"that makes no make no sense."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2071.464,"endTime":2072.244,"body":"basically."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2072.664,"endTime":2076.714,"body":"so maybe if we could break"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2072.664,"endTime":2076.714,"body":"the product that you modeled"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2076.714,"endTime":2079.83,"body":"an agent, maybe there are"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2076.714,"endTime":2079.83,"body":"waste, to skip that individual"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2079.83,"endTime":2083.79,"body":"behavior and just focus on like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2079.83,"endTime":2083.79,"body":"group behavior or something."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2083.79,"endTime":2084.24,"body":"bigger."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2084.72,"endTime":2087.06,"body":"And how do you do wild"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2084.72,"endTime":2087.06,"body":"land interface, fire?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2087.06,"endTime":2087.31,"body":"Do you,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2087.31,"endTime":2089.55,"body":"do still stick to agent or."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2089.926,"endTime":2092.283,"body":"I think"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2089.926,"endTime":2092.283,"body":"this is a, another very"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2092.283,"endTime":2093.543,"body":"good point of discussion."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2093.543,"endTime":2096.303,"body":"I had several discussions about"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2093.543,"endTime":2096.303,"body":"this with different researchers"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2096.303,"endTime":2099.733,"body":"that work in different domain,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2096.303,"endTime":2099.733,"body":"both in the WUI fire world"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2099.753,"endTime":2102.963,"body":"and in the crowd, evacuation"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2099.753,"endTime":2102.963,"body":"world, I think there is not"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2103.323,"endTime":2106.353,"body":"a type of modeling approach"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2103.323,"endTime":2106.353,"body":"that works for everything."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2106.523,"endTime":2107.643,"body":"I think it really depends."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2108.528,"endTime":2111.378,"body":"Problem that you need to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2108.528,"endTime":2111.378,"body":"solve because some cases it"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2111.378,"endTime":2115.295,"body":"is true to, you could actually"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2111.378,"endTime":2115.295,"body":"use a very simple, say flow"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2115.295,"endTime":2119.135,"body":"calculation or a very simple"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2115.295,"endTime":2119.135,"body":"microscopic model and get a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2119.135,"endTime":2122.285,"body":"fairly decent approximation"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2119.135,"endTime":2122.285,"body":"of the result that you need."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2122.827,"endTime":2125.421,"body":"in some other contexts is"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2122.827,"endTime":2125.421,"body":"actually probably not enough,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2125.451,"endTime":2129.081,"body":"especially when you, the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2125.451,"endTime":2129.081,"body":"impact of an individual, a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2129.111,"endTime":2132.351,"body":"behavior or a small group of"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2129.111,"endTime":2132.351,"body":"individuals can, uh, can be huge"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2132.441,"endTime":2134.001,"body":"on your total evacuation time."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2134.391,"endTime":2135.201,"body":"Then you can adjust."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2135.686,"endTime":2140.526,"body":"The big picture you may get"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2135.686,"endTime":2140.526,"body":"these diluted and maybe let's"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2140.526,"endTime":2142.426,"body":"say overlook certain aspects."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2142.426,"endTime":2145.876,"body":"So discussion came up a lot,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2142.426,"endTime":2145.876,"body":"for instance, when it comes to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2145.876,"endTime":2148.996,"body":"WUI fires because there, there"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2145.876,"endTime":2148.996,"body":"is even a lot of people arguing"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2149.326,"endTime":2150.706,"body":"that we don't even have to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2150.942,"endTime":2151.212,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2151.486,"endTime":2155.126,"body":"pedestrian"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2151.486,"endTime":2155.126,"body":"execution modeling within"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2155.126,"endTime":2157.496,"body":"with our modeling because"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2155.126,"endTime":2157.496,"body":"of the scale of the traffic."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2157.496,"endTime":2159.716,"body":"When you have scenarios,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2157.496,"endTime":2159.716,"body":"we, traffic evacuation"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2159.716,"endTime":2160.586,"body":"is much bigger."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2160.926,"endTime":2163.883,"body":"but again, I will not"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2160.926,"endTime":2163.883,"body":"the answer like yes we"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2163.883,"endTime":2164.993,"body":"need or no, we don't."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2165.353,"endTime":2168.023,"body":"The answer is, it really"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2165.353,"endTime":2168.023,"body":"depends on which scenario"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2168.023,"endTime":2170.903,"body":"you're looking at and what"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2168.023,"endTime":2170.903,"body":"conditions you're looking at."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2170.903,"endTime":2172.553,"body":"Both for buildings"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2170.903,"endTime":2172.553,"body":"and WUI fires."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2172.936,"endTime":2176.386,"body":"we should be able to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2172.936,"endTime":2176.386,"body":"have in the available."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2176.386,"endTime":2180.191,"body":"a pool of tools then"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2176.386,"endTime":2180.191,"body":"select the most appropriate"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2180.191,"endTime":2182.588,"body":"one, given problems that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2180.191,"endTime":2182.588,"body":"we need to solve in the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2182.588,"endTime":2183.968,"body":"design issues that we have."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2183.968,"endTime":2187.448,"body":"So will not argue, I will"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2183.968,"endTime":2187.448,"body":"not recommend to just abandon"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2187.538,"endTime":2189.518,"body":"a microscopic modeling."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2189.548,"endTime":2191.198,"body":"That's definitely"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2189.548,"endTime":2191.198,"body":"not a good idea."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2191.228,"endTime":2194.418,"body":"Uh, personally, I think, nor"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2191.228,"endTime":2194.418,"body":"abandoned macroscopic modeling,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2194.418,"endTime":2196.068,"body":"because that is also useful"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2196.079,"endTime":2196.169,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2196.218,"endTime":2198.858,"body":"many instances,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2196.218,"endTime":2198.858,"body":"but more like choosing."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2199.413,"endTime":2201.993,"body":"What is the right path that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2199.413,"endTime":2201.993,"body":"we need to take, depending"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2201.993,"endTime":2204.863,"body":"on what applications we have"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2201.993,"endTime":2204.863,"body":"and have those two tracks"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2204.863,"endTime":2205.883,"body":"developing in parallel."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2205.883,"endTime":2208.883,"body":"So maybe microscopic models"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2205.883,"endTime":2208.883,"body":"can learn something from"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2208.883,"endTime":2211.773,"body":"microscopic models and vice"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2208.883,"endTime":2211.773,"body":"versa, , because you know,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2211.773,"endTime":2214.263,"body":"there've been also efforts"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2211.773,"endTime":2214.263,"body":"trying to combine those and the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2214.263,"endTime":2216.47,"body":"using,, hybrid, approaches and"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2216.47,"endTime":2218.868,"body":"so on, but that's not a trivial,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2219.39,"endTime":2220.5,"body":"would"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2219.39,"endTime":2220.5,"body":"have to decide when a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2220.5,"endTime":2222.98,"body":"person changes from, , a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2220.5,"endTime":2222.98,"body":"person into a population."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2223.15,"endTime":2227.046,"body":"It's this, this sharp edge when"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2223.15,"endTime":2227.046,"body":"If you would agree that that's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2227.046,"endTime":2229.926,"body":"some point that the population"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2227.046,"endTime":2229.926,"body":"scale, these individual"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2229.926,"endTime":2232.836,"body":"decisions have less and less"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2229.926,"endTime":2232.836,"body":"impact because essentially"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2232.836,"endTime":2233.946,"body":"they become statistics."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2234.433,"endTime":2236.89,"body":"if you care about the movement"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2234.433,"endTime":2236.89,"body":"of a 1 million people."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2237.37,"endTime":2239.83,"body":"the decision of of a single"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2237.37,"endTime":2239.83,"body":"person ends up being a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2239.84,"endTime":2240.87,"body":"statistics that's it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2241.2,"endTime":2242.4,"body":"So, finding , this."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2242.436,"endTime":2245.486,"body":"Edge between them and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2242.436,"endTime":2245.486,"body":"applying correct approaches."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2245.486,"endTime":2248.686,"body":"to each, maybe an important,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2245.486,"endTime":2248.686,"body":"aspect of modeling overall"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2249.166,"endTime":2252.873,"body":"And, I think in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2249.166,"endTime":2252.873,"body":"same way, it's when you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2253.251,"endTime":2256.787,"body":"go from modeling agent movement"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2253.251,"endTime":2256.787,"body":"into agent behavior, it's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2256.787,"endTime":2261.257,"body":"also a, a, shop interface"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2256.787,"endTime":2261.257,"body":"where you literally stopped"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2261.257,"endTime":2264.827,"body":"doing something very simple"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2261.257,"endTime":2264.827,"body":"and jumped into a field"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2264.827,"endTime":2269.517,"body":"where more complicated"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2264.827,"endTime":2269.517,"body":"things, dictate the outcome."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2269.757,"endTime":2273.807,"body":"and like, honestly, from"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2269.757,"endTime":2273.807,"body":"your experience, do you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2273.807,"endTime":2277.69,"body":"think in I don't know, next"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2273.807,"endTime":2277.69,"body":"five 10 years we will have"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2277.692,"endTime":2281.682,"body":"reliable behavioral models"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2277.692,"endTime":2281.682,"body":"to use in our modeling,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2282.042,"endTime":2284.629,"body":"like I go today, I start"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2282.042,"endTime":2284.629,"body":"up computer software"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2284.629,"endTime":2285.709,"body":"of my choice to model."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2285.709,"endTime":2288.665,"body":"my, building, I pop in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2285.709,"endTime":2288.665,"body":"pre evacuation distribution"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2288.665,"endTime":2289.845,"body":"times and, I run the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2289.845,"endTime":2290.655,"body":"simulations."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2290.888,"endTime":2293.915,"body":"Will I be able in like five"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2290.888,"endTime":2293.915,"body":"to 10 years, be able to just"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2293.975,"endTime":2297.845,"body":"put default human behavior,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2293.975,"endTime":2297.845,"body":"model and then just run the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2297.845,"endTime":2299.315,"body":"same simulations without this."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2300.083,"endTime":2302.483,"body":"I think in five"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2300.083,"endTime":2302.483,"body":"years, no, probably I don't"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2302.483,"endTime":2305.536,"body":"want to be over optimistic"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2302.483,"endTime":2305.536,"body":"because that is something that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2305.536,"endTime":2309.466,"body":"we have been looking around"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2305.536,"endTime":2309.466,"body":"already for quite some time."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2309.496,"endTime":2312.526,"body":"And, and we are digging into"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2309.496,"endTime":2312.526,"body":"this, but I will argue the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2312.526,"endTime":2315.586,"body":"tools that we have today and"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2312.526,"endTime":2315.586,"body":"as mentioned several of them,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2315.586,"endTime":2319.696,"body":"they are becoming more and more"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2315.586,"endTime":2319.696,"body":"flexible in a way that have as"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2319.696,"endTime":2321.856,"body":"users, as solid understanding."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2322.521,"endTime":2325.701,"body":"Of what are the scenarios"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2322.521,"endTime":2325.701,"body":"and the behaviors that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2325.701,"endTime":2327.171,"body":"we want to represent."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2327.741,"endTime":2331.221,"body":"can, we actually have the design"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2327.741,"endTime":2331.221,"body":"tools to do our design nowadays."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2331.221,"endTime":2338.561,"body":"So is missing here is a more"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2331.221,"endTime":2338.561,"body":"research towards of everything"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2338.561,"endTime":2341.621,"body":"that has to do with those"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2338.561,"endTime":2341.621,"body":"outliers scenarios that we have."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2342.786,"endTime":2346.356,"body":"Understanding and control on"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2342.786,"endTime":2346.356,"body":"because we know that in certain"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2346.356,"endTime":2351.936,"body":"situations they may be a small"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2346.356,"endTime":2351.936,"body":"group or of people doing a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2351.936,"endTime":2354.936,"body":"certain behavior that might"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2351.936,"endTime":2354.936,"body":"dramatically affect our results."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2354.966,"endTime":2358.083,"body":"And, you know, when we"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2354.966,"endTime":2358.083,"body":"design a performance based"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2358.083,"endTime":2360.353,"body":"deisgn fire engineering,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2358.083,"endTime":2360.353,"body":"we actually look at RSET."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2360.373,"endTime":2365.036,"body":"So we look at the actual, , tail"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2360.373,"endTime":2365.036,"body":"of, our evacuation time curves."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2365.256,"endTime":2367.006,"body":"And that's where"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2365.256,"endTime":2367.006,"body":"I would like to."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2367.367,"endTime":2370.028,"body":"more research too, because"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2367.367,"endTime":2370.028,"body":"now we can do it, but"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2370.028,"endTime":2372.848,"body":"we have a, quite a large"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2370.028,"endTime":2372.848,"body":"uncertainty in this."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2372.848,"endTime":2376.568,"body":"So I hope, and I really think"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2372.848,"endTime":2376.568,"body":"that we will doing 10 years"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2376.568,"endTime":2381.051,"body":"from now is to basically"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2376.568,"endTime":2381.051,"body":"work more on, making a small."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2381.43,"endTime":2385.01,"body":"gap what is the result"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2381.43,"endTime":2385.01,"body":"that we expect and the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2385.01,"endTime":2385.94,"body":"uncertainty that we"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2386.165,"endTime":2386.885,"body":"Amazingly."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2387.08,"endTime":2389.66,"body":"to basically,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2387.08,"endTime":2389.66,"body":"uh, have anRSET because, you"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2389.66,"endTime":2392.93,"body":"know, when we work with RSET"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2389.66,"endTime":2392.93,"body":"ASET, sometimes actually"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2393.83,"endTime":2395.96,"body":"we recommend to have these"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2393.83,"endTime":2395.96,"body":"probabilistic approaches to."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2396.475,"endTime":2399.115,"body":"To make sure that in"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2396.475,"endTime":2399.115,"body":"10 years from now, this"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2399.115,"endTime":2400.945,"body":"uncertainty is reduced."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2400.975,"endTime":2404.845,"body":"So span of possible results"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2400.975,"endTime":2404.845,"body":"become smaller, which means"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2404.845,"endTime":2408.665,"body":"that we have more confidence in"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2404.845,"endTime":2408.665,"body":"our, RSET when we do our design."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2408.675,"endTime":2411.695,"body":"So this is what I see"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2408.675,"endTime":2411.695,"body":"happening 10 years from now."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2411.725,"endTime":2414.978,"body":"I don't think we're going to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2411.725,"endTime":2414.978,"body":"be able to pin down to one"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2415.138,"endTime":2418.213,"body":"RSET for each very specific"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2415.138,"endTime":2418.213,"body":"scenario because also."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2418.213,"endTime":2422.735,"body":"That's not really how"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2418.213,"endTime":2422.735,"body":"we work and how are."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2422.765,"endTime":2425.645,"body":"It's very, there's so many"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2422.765,"endTime":2425.645,"body":"variables that can play a role"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2425.675,"endTime":2428.825,"body":"that it's very hard to isolate"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2425.675,"endTime":2428.825,"body":"them all, especially in the"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2428.825,"endTime":2432.635,"body":"timeframe of five or 10 years"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2428.825,"endTime":2432.635,"body":"from now, but we can improve"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2432.635,"endTime":2435.515,"body":"our understanding of this"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2432.635,"endTime":2435.515,"body":"uncertainty and decrease that"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2435.515,"endTime":2439.055,"body":"uncertainty that we actually"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2435.515,"endTime":2439.055,"body":"have a better understanding"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2439.055,"endTime":2439.935,"body":"of what these rset."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2439.955,"endTime":2442.055,"body":"This requires safety"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2439.955,"endTime":2442.055,"body":"egress time is."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2442.211,"endTime":2444.461,"body":"I just"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2442.211,"endTime":2444.461,"body":"can't stop myself from asking"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2444.461,"endTime":2447.101,"body":"you for predictions for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2444.461,"endTime":2447.101,"body":"the future and for the new"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2447.181,"endTime":2449.634,"body":"listeners of the podcast,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2447.181,"endTime":2449.634,"body":"there's like a whole episode"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2449.634,"endTime":2452.664,"body":"with two Italians rambling on"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2449.634,"endTime":2452.664,"body":"how the future of evacuation."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2452.664,"endTime":2453.594,"body":"modeling will look like."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2453.594,"endTime":2456.894,"body":"And I I highly recommend"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2453.594,"endTime":2456.894,"body":"that, , the out it was"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2456.894,"endTime":2460.524,"body":"a great discussion and I"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2456.894,"endTime":2460.524,"body":"would also love to recommend"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2460.524,"endTime":2461.514,"body":"your episode with Erica"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2462.084,"endTime":2462.324,"body":"who."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2462.949,"endTime":2467.056,"body":"Explains how she's modeling"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2462.949,"endTime":2467.056,"body":"behavior in wild land fires."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2467.056,"endTime":2467.896,"body":"And that is,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2468.616,"endTime":2469.696,"body":"that is truly beautiful."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2469.706,"endTime":2473.206,"body":"on the, how this aspects of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2469.706,"endTime":2473.206,"body":"human behavior, are being"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2473.206,"endTime":2475.636,"body":"modeled and what it takes"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2473.206,"endTime":2475.636,"body":"to actually model them."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2475.876,"endTime":2477.736,"body":"Maybe not the buildings"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2475.876,"endTime":2477.736,"body":"outside of buildings, but"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2477.736,"endTime":2479.178,"body":"still it's, Similar problem."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2479.178,"endTime":2481.578,"body":"And I absolutely love"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2479.178,"endTime":2481.578,"body":"how she presented it"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2481.578,"endTime":2484.088,"body":"and it really, shows the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2481.578,"endTime":2484.088,"body":"complexity of the problem."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2484.168,"endTime":2487.978,"body":"And I think through a resources"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2484.168,"endTime":2487.978,"body":"like this, true research"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2488.008,"endTime":2489.875,"body":"like that we, truly bring."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2489.905,"endTime":2493.145,"body":"more people closer"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2489.905,"endTime":2493.145,"body":"to understanding."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2493.88,"endTime":2496.13,"body":"What is the big problem in here?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2496.13,"endTime":2497.96,"body":"what is the big picture in here?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2498.41,"endTime":2500.064,"body":"And if to understand that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2498.41,"endTime":2500.064,"body":"they have to move back to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2500.064,"endTime":2503.124,"body":"fundamentals and by moving"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2500.064,"endTime":2503.124,"body":"back, to fundamentals, they"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2503.574,"endTime":2506.698,"body":"move away from doing this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2503.574,"endTime":2506.698,"body":"misjudge conceptions that,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2506.704,"endTime":2510.846,"body":"you can simplify a human"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2506.704,"endTime":2510.846,"body":"behavior into, , a phenomenon"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2510.846,"endTime":2512.466,"body":"of panic Or whatever else."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2512.466,"endTime":2515.076,"body":"And, uh, I guess th that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2512.466,"endTime":2515.076,"body":"could be like a good."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2515.076,"endTime":2518.373,"body":"Summary on where should"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2515.076,"endTime":2518.373,"body":"we go educate people"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2518.373,"endTime":2519.333,"body":"on the complexity?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2519.333,"endTime":2520.113,"body":"And what"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2520.113,"endTime":2525.024,"body":"it really means, to, to model"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2520.113,"endTime":2525.024,"body":"behavior, to stop this overflow"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2525.068,"endTime":2528.638,"body":"of bad science that in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2525.068,"endTime":2528.638,"body":"end influences our discipline."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2529.152,"endTime":2529.534,"body":"Correct."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2529.564,"endTime":2531.784,"body":"And I think this is a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2529.564,"endTime":2531.784,"body":"good take home message."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2531.784,"endTime":2537.077,"body":"So, , if you are, a user"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2531.784,"endTime":2537.077,"body":"of models even if you are a"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2537.077,"endTime":2541.197,"body":"researcher, back and start"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2537.077,"endTime":2541.197,"body":"questioning, the assumptions,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2541.227,"endTime":2542.457,"body":"both that the model use."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2543.047,"endTime":2546.947,"body":"And that you are using because"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2543.047,"endTime":2546.947,"body":"this is one of the key aspects"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2546.947,"endTime":2550.89,"body":"that can lead, to mistakes and"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2546.947,"endTime":2550.89,"body":"problems in your simulation"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2550.89,"endTime":2555.37,"body":"world So I think, these should"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2550.89,"endTime":2555.37,"body":"be the take home message, when"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2555.37,"endTime":2558.404,"body":"it comes to, representation"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2555.37,"endTime":2558.404,"body":"of such a complex problem,"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2558.404,"endTime":2559.874,"body":"like human behavior and fire."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2559.995,"endTime":2560.498,"body":"Fantastic."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2560.498,"endTime":2561.901,"body":"that's a great, summary."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2561.901,"endTime":2565.321,"body":"I I link all the resources"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2561.901,"endTime":2565.321,"body":"into show notes,  and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2566.191,"endTime":2570.271,"body":"I hope we've helped some"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2566.191,"endTime":2570.271,"body":"scientists to get on the correct"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2570.271,"endTime":2572.979,"body":"path and others to, to help us."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2573.059,"endTime":2575.589,"body":", fight or battle of, bad science,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2576.228,"endTime":2579.403,"body":"thank you very much Enrico"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2576.228,"endTime":2579.403,"body":"for coming to the show for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2579.403,"endTime":2583.453,"body":"the second time, it was a huge"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2579.403,"endTime":2583.453,"body":"pleasure to have you here."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2583.453,"endTime":2586.243,"body":"And, uh, I have a feeling"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2583.453,"endTime":2586.243,"body":"we will see each other,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2586.603,"endTime":2588.223,"body":"not so far from now."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2588.223,"endTime":2590.893,"body":"Again, maybe touching"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2588.223,"endTime":2590.893,"body":"on the RSET concert."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2590.923,"endTime":2591.193,"body":"Oh man."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2591.193,"endTime":2593.233,"body":"That would be,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2591.193,"endTime":2593.233,"body":"that would be fun."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2593.628,"endTime":2593.997,"body":"thanks."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2593.997,"endTime":2596.547,"body":"Wojciech was very nice to"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2593.997,"endTime":2596.547,"body":"be back and, thanks a lot"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2596.547,"endTime":2599.277,"body":"for all the efforts and time"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2596.547,"endTime":2599.277,"body":"you put into this podcast"},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2599.277,"endTime":2600.547,"body":"because it's really fantastic."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2600.567,"endTime":2601.647,"body":"We really needed it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2601.83,"endTime":2602.4,"body":"Oh, thank you."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2602.65,"endTime":2603.0,"body":"I'm"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2603.0,"endTime":2603.42,"body":"so happy."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2603.42,"endTime":2604.74,"body":"I didn't know what,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2603.42,"endTime":2604.74,"body":"I didn't know."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2604.74,"endTime":2605.31,"body":"we needed it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2605.34,"endTime":2607.47,"body":"until I started it and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2605.34,"endTime":2607.47,"body":"now I just can't stop."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2607.89,"endTime":2609.18,"body":"It's really cool experience."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2609.21,"endTime":2609.73,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2610.627,"endTime":2610.987,"body":"Thanks."},{"speaker":"Enrico Ronchi","startTime":2610.987,"endTime":2611.485,"body":"Bye-bye."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2612.166,"endTime":2614.747,"body":"I hope"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2612.166,"endTime":2614.747,"body":"you've enjoyed this episode."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2615.317,"endTime":2618.917,"body":"And if there's one takeaway that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2615.317,"endTime":2618.917,"body":"you can take from it, I guess"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2618.947,"endTime":2623.657,"body":"a sanity check approach for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2618.947,"endTime":2623.657,"body":"testing your evacuation model"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2623.657,"endTime":2625.067,"body":"would be the thing to take."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2625.577,"endTime":2630.377,"body":"Enrico mentioned the paper"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2625.577,"endTime":2630.377,"body":"and I found it, the paper is"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2630.377,"endTime":2633.497,"body":"Guidance for the model"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2630.377,"endTime":2633.497,"body":"developer on representing"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2633.527,"endTime":2636.686,"body":"human behavior in egress"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2633.527,"endTime":2636.686,"body":"models and it was published in"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2636.686,"endTime":2637.796,"body":"Fire and Technology journal."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2638.506,"endTime":2642.256,"body":"It's authored by a"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2638.506,"endTime":2642.256,"body":"Gwynne, Hulse and Kinsey."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2642.736,"endTime":2644.026,"body":"And I link."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2644.446,"endTime":2646.726,"body":"It in the episode"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2644.446,"endTime":2646.726,"body":"description, obviously."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2647.436,"endTime":2650.716,"body":"Enrico mentioned the"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2647.436,"endTime":2650.716,"body":"paper contains statements."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2650.746,"endTime":2651.976,"body":"And in fact it does."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2652.26,"endTime":2655.623,"body":"Statements that, are, let's"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2652.26,"endTime":2655.623,"body":"say the things that we"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2655.623,"endTime":2658.356,"body":"know about the behavior of"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2655.623,"endTime":2658.356,"body":"people when they evacuate."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2658.926,"endTime":2663.156,"body":"And this can be used to cross"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2658.926,"endTime":2663.156,"body":"check your analysis, whether you"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2663.156,"endTime":2664.626,"body":"break this statements or not."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2664.76,"endTime":2667.94,"body":"And if you do well, then most"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2664.76,"endTime":2667.94,"body":"likely there is some error"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2667.94,"endTime":2671.42,"body":"or misconception or the model"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2667.94,"endTime":2671.42,"body":"is used in an incorrect way."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2671.96,"endTime":2672.38,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2672.381,"endTime":2676.09,"body":"As we don't have yet the"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2672.381,"endTime":2676.09,"body":"perfect models as we don't."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2676.09,"endTime":2679.498,"body":"Have you had the ability"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2676.09,"endTime":2679.498,"body":"to just easily model the."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2679.748,"endTime":2681.458,"body":"Evacuation behavior of people."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2681.481,"endTime":2684.725,"body":"Actually cross-checking"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2681.481,"endTime":2684.725,"body":"our simulations with such"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2684.725,"endTime":2687.485,"body":"a sanity check is, sounds"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2684.725,"endTime":2687.485,"body":"like a pretty powerful."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2687.491,"endTime":2689.771,"body":"Tool that can be used"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2687.491,"endTime":2689.771,"body":"to make sure that."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2689.791,"endTime":2693.781,"body":"And modeling is of high quality,"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2689.791,"endTime":2693.781,"body":"and I would recommend it to"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2693.811,"endTime":2697.291,"body":"engineers and I would highly"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2693.811,"endTime":2697.291,"body":"recommend it to scientists"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2697.306,"endTime":2698.658,"body":"who research in this field."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2699.138,"endTime":2702.498,"body":"And as mentioned in the start of"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2699.138,"endTime":2702.498,"body":"the episode, I would also highly"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2702.498,"endTime":2703.848,"body":"recommend listening to that."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2704.428,"endTime":2706.058,"body":"IAFSS webinar."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2706.228,"endTime":2709.308,"body":"There was a channel on YouTube,"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2706.228,"endTime":2709.308,"body":"uh, with, these webinars did"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2709.308,"endTime":2710.718,"body":"this one was the third one."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2711.258,"endTime":2712.128,"body":"And they're all great."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2712.128,"endTime":2713.833,"body":"So I hope this is another."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2713.833,"endTime":2716.1,"body":"resource that is"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2713.833,"endTime":2716.1,"body":"interesting to you."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2716.115,"endTime":2718.368,"body":"And, I hope you'll"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2716.115,"endTime":2718.368,"body":"reach out for, for that."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2718.998,"endTime":2720.918,"body":"Thank you for"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2718.998,"endTime":2720.918,"body":"being here with me."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2721.338,"endTime":2724.188,"body":"Thank you for another"},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2721.338,"endTime":2724.188,"body":"week of podcasting."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2724.698,"endTime":2727.698,"body":"I look forward to the next week."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2727.728,"endTime":2729.815,"body":"So see you again next Wednesday."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2729.845,"endTime":2730.175,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"titled","startTime":2730.175,"endTime":2730.565,"body":"Bye."}]}