{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":0.72,"endTime":1.35,"body":"Hello, everybody."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1.35,"endTime":3.9,"body":"Welcome to the fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1.35,"endTime":3.9,"body":"science show episode 40."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4.59,"endTime":8.25,"body":"It's kind of difficult"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4.59,"endTime":8.25,"body":"to record this in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":8.25,"endTime":9.15,"body":"cheerful manner when."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":9.2,"endTime":12.645,"body":"There is a war next doors,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":9.2,"endTime":12.645,"body":"like literally in the country."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":12.65,"endTime":14.109,"body":"Next to mine and."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":14.516,"endTime":15.926,"body":"we've been called paranoid."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":15.969,"endTime":16.869,"body":"About Russia."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":16.93,"endTime":17.893,"body":"We Polish people."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":18.263,"endTime":20.406,"body":"now you see what"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":18.263,"endTime":20.406,"body":"we were afraid of."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":20.756,"endTime":21.236,"body":"Anyway."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":21.596,"endTime":22.946,"body":"Let's hope for the best."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":23.276,"endTime":26.006,"body":"I can only tell you that the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":23.276,"endTime":26.006,"body":"Polish nation is extremely"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":26.006,"endTime":27.949,"body":"supportive to the Ukrainians."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":28.003,"endTime":31.303,"body":"both in terms of supporting"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":28.003,"endTime":31.303,"body":"their military efforts."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":31.33,"endTime":34.41,"body":"And at the same time,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":31.33,"endTime":34.41,"body":"supporting those who escape."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":34.41,"endTime":35.689,"body":"From Ukraine and the."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":35.929,"endTime":37.909,"body":"And this mainly women"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":35.929,"endTime":37.909,"body":"and children and."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":38.599,"endTime":39.379,"body":"I must tell you."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":39.433,"endTime":40.423,"body":"observation."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":41.083,"endTime":42.373,"body":"It's really surprised me."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":42.403,"endTime":45.359,"body":"There is hundreds of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":42.403,"endTime":45.359,"body":"thousands of young ukrainian"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":45.379,"endTime":48.259,"body":"males who are working in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":45.379,"endTime":48.259,"body":"Poland, who are on their"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":48.259,"endTime":49.939,"body":"way to the Ukraine to fight."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":50.403,"endTime":53.343,"body":"If that's not being a hero,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":50.403,"endTime":53.343,"body":"then I don't know what is."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":54.153,"endTime":54.513,"body":"Anyway."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":54.903,"endTime":56.913,"body":"Let's not make the spotless"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":54.903,"endTime":56.913,"body":"political, let's go back to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":56.943,"endTime":58.613,"body":"fire science and, I hope."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":58.644,"endTime":61.389,"body":"to some of you hardest to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":58.644,"endTime":61.389,"body":"this will at least let you."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":61.839,"endTime":66.803,"body":"Escape the Realty for some"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":61.839,"endTime":66.803,"body":"brief time, Today I have a guest"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":66.803,"endTime":69.623,"body":"today when we wanted to invite"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":66.803,"endTime":69.623,"body":"to the podcast for a long time."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":70.013,"endTime":71.203,"body":"Dr Ingo Riess."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":71.483,"endTime":74.686,"body":"Ingo is an engineer working"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":71.483,"endTime":74.686,"body":"with our roads tunnels."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":75.016,"endTime":76.186,"body":"And tunnels in general."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":76.312,"endTime":78.952,"body":"And to me, he's one of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":76.312,"endTime":78.952,"body":"the biggest authorities in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":78.982,"endTime":82.912,"body":"terms of engineering tunnels"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":78.982,"endTime":82.912,"body":"he's not a researcher, but"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":82.912,"endTime":84.682,"body":"he surely acts like one."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":85.582,"endTime":86.392,"body":"I love that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":86.782,"endTime":89.492,"body":"He's experienced with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":86.782,"endTime":89.492,"body":"designing tunnels"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":89.512,"endTime":91.222,"body":"performing risk analysis."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":91.662,"endTime":95.831,"body":"One dimensional, um, ventilation"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":91.662,"endTime":95.831,"body":"analysis and just being a part"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":95.831,"endTime":98.858,"body":"Often efforts to design some of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":95.831,"endTime":98.858,"body":"the Europe's biggest tunnels."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":98.878,"endTime":101.878,"body":"He's experienced this immense"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":98.878,"endTime":101.878,"body":"and I was looking forward to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":101.878,"endTime":105.448,"body":"the talk because I'm myself,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":101.878,"endTime":105.448,"body":"I'm a total engineer lately and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":105.778,"endTime":108.808,"body":"we've been involved in many,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":105.778,"endTime":108.808,"body":"many road tunnels in Poland."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":108.985,"endTime":111.368,"body":"So this episode was"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":108.985,"endTime":111.368,"body":"as much for me as for."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":111.548,"endTime":112.148,"body":"For you."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":112.448,"endTime":114.338,"body":"And I've truly learned"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":112.448,"endTime":114.338,"body":"a lot from that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":114.725,"endTime":115.775,"body":"it's a good one."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":115.775,"endTime":117.455,"body":"You want to listen"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":115.775,"endTime":117.455,"body":"to, to the end?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":117.825,"endTime":120.195,"body":"So that's not prolong this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":117.825,"endTime":120.195,"body":"anymore that's been the intro"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":120.195,"endTime":121.365,"body":"and jump into the episode"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":145.215,"endTime":145.935,"body":"Hello everybody."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":146.145,"endTime":150.165,"body":"I'm here today with Dr Ingo"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":146.145,"endTime":150.165,"body":"Riess from Riess Engineur GmbH.."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":150.645,"endTime":152.055,"body":"Hello, Ingo and great"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":150.645,"endTime":152.055,"body":"to have you here."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":152.205,"endTime":152.565,"body":"Hello."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":152.838,"endTime":153.708,"body":"Thank you for having me."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":154.042,"endTime":155.542,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":154.042,"endTime":155.542,"body":"wanted this for a long time."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":155.572,"endTime":159.568,"body":"I mean, you're a fellow tunnel"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":155.572,"endTime":159.568,"body":"engineer, which is probably the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":159.568,"endTime":163.888,"body":"closest part to my heart now"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":159.568,"endTime":163.888,"body":"in the fire engineering world."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":163.918,"endTime":164.308,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":164.688,"endTime":168.463,"body":"I must say the resources"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":164.688,"endTime":168.463,"body":"you provide in your papers"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":168.463,"endTime":171.613,"body":"and the repos that you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":168.463,"endTime":171.613,"body":"participate are priceless to me."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":171.613,"endTime":176.927,"body":"So I loved the opportunity to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":171.613,"endTime":176.927,"body":"talk to you, like face to face."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":176.957,"endTime":178.187,"body":"Thanks for coming."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":178.592,"endTime":179.012,"body":"thank you."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":179.083,"endTime":179.583,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":179.644,"endTime":184.708,"body":"Recently I, uh, came a report"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":179.644,"endTime":184.708,"body":"that you've participated on the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":184.708,"endTime":189.293,"body":"resiliency of tunnels that was"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":184.708,"endTime":189.293,"body":"done for PIARC And, I saw you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":189.293,"endTime":193.613,"body":"doing a lot of work around the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":189.293,"endTime":193.613,"body":"topic of resiliency of tunnels."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":193.673,"endTime":197.366,"body":"And actually I would love to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":193.673,"endTime":197.366,"body":"start with that because that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":197.366,"endTime":202.47,"body":"gives us a better impression of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":197.366,"endTime":202.47,"body":"why we should design safety in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":202.47,"endTime":204.66,"body":"tunnels and how to design it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":204.93,"endTime":206.31,"body":"So maybe let's start with."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":206.985,"endTime":210.665,"body":"Defining what's resiliency"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":206.985,"endTime":210.665,"body":"in the world of tunnels"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":211.065,"endTime":212.625,"body":"that's a"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":211.065,"endTime":212.625,"body":"rather difficult question."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":212.655,"endTime":213.255,"body":"We"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":213.64,"endTime":214.06,"body":"know."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":214.905,"endTime":218.068,"body":"I'm in a broken"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":214.905,"endTime":218.068,"body":"group of PIARC In the initial"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":218.068,"endTime":221.938,"body":"meetings, uh, we try to find a"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":218.068,"endTime":221.938,"body":"definition, a common definition"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":221.938,"endTime":226.228,"body":"of resilience, and this was"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":221.938,"endTime":226.228,"body":"really difficult and it had"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":226.228,"endTime":227.758,"body":"to be revised several times."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":228.308,"endTime":230.858,"body":"For a for tunnels of"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":228.308,"endTime":230.858,"body":"for the traffic network"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":230.858,"endTime":232.598,"body":"it's about keeping"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":230.858,"endTime":232.598,"body":"traffic moving."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":233.108,"endTime":237.328,"body":"And if there is a disturbance"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":233.108,"endTime":237.328,"body":"to the system to get back"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":237.328,"endTime":239.008,"body":"online as quickly as possible."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":239.683,"endTime":244.016,"body":"So the resilience is the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":239.683,"endTime":244.016,"body":"measure of, the possibility"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":244.016,"endTime":246.836,"body":"of keep the network or the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":244.016,"endTime":246.836,"body":"connect traffic connection"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":246.836,"endTime":249.086,"body":"open from any adverse impact."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":249.326,"endTime":251.746,"body":"And if there's, the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":249.326,"endTime":251.746,"body":"connection is broken to get"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":251.746,"endTime":253.876,"body":"it open as fast as possible."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":254.153,"endTime":257.803,"body":"Like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":254.153,"endTime":257.803,"body":"the ability to restart,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":257.869,"endTime":259.309,"body":"doing normal operation."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":259.838,"endTime":262.958,"body":"As quickly and as"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":259.838,"endTime":262.958,"body":"little cost as possible."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":262.958,"endTime":263.288,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":263.483,"endTime":265.973,"body":"and there's"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":263.483,"endTime":265.973,"body":"always the aspect of safety."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":266.153,"endTime":269.693,"body":"If the tunnel is broken,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":266.153,"endTime":269.693,"body":"you can always open it."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":269.723,"endTime":272.693,"body":"If you accept any level"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":269.723,"endTime":272.693,"body":"of safety or unsafety."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":273.679,"endTime":274.939,"body":"I like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":273.679,"endTime":274.939,"body":"the goal of the tunnels"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":274.939,"endTime":276.229,"body":"to get the traffic moving."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":276.649,"endTime":279.969,"body":"And, yeah, we, we build"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":276.649,"endTime":279.969,"body":"them now in Poland."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":279.969,"endTime":284.199,"body":"For example, Poland is not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":279.969,"endTime":284.199,"body":"a very mountainous country."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":284.199,"endTime":286.749,"body":"We have mountains in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":284.199,"endTime":286.749,"body":"the south of Poland, but"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":286.779,"endTime":290.943,"body":"it's not a part of huge,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":286.779,"endTime":290.943,"body":"conurbations or something."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":290.945,"endTime":294.896,"body":"We have their connections with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":290.945,"endTime":294.896,"body":"our neighbors, but now I'm"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":294.896,"endTime":299.346,"body":"mostly involved or are highly"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":294.896,"endTime":299.346,"body":"involved in tunnels being built"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":299.346,"endTime":304.266,"body":"in cities, in large cities"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":299.346,"endTime":304.266,"body":"as a part of like giving the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":304.266,"endTime":305.773,"body":"city back to the citizens."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":305.803,"endTime":308.593,"body":"And that's a trend that's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":305.803,"endTime":308.593,"body":"been here for ages."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":308.593,"endTime":308.923,"body":"If I."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":309.044,"endTime":311.931,"body":"remember correctly, there"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":309.044,"endTime":311.931,"body":"was this huge, fire safety"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":311.931,"endTime":315.201,"body":"program, Memorial tunnel,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":311.931,"endTime":315.201,"body":"and that was connected to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":315.761,"endTime":317.001,"body":"a large project like that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":317.001,"endTime":319.041,"body":"I think it was in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":317.001,"endTime":319.041,"body":"Boston, the USA, where"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":319.041,"endTime":320.171,"body":"they tried to move, uh,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":320.796,"endTime":321.276,"body":"Central."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":323.011,"endTime":323.461,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":323.511,"endTime":325.524,"body":"And, that was like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":323.511,"endTime":325.524,"body":"30 or 40 years ago."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":325.524,"endTime":327.534,"body":"And the trend is now in here."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":327.534,"endTime":329.694,"body":"And we start digging"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":327.534,"endTime":329.694,"body":"under the cities."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":330.054,"endTime":332.904,"body":"We start building this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":330.054,"endTime":332.904,"body":"huge tunnels for large"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":332.934,"endTime":334.404,"body":"volumes of vehicles."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":334.404,"endTime":338.454,"body":"And this approach is not going"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":334.404,"endTime":338.454,"body":"anywhere because it seems to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":338.454,"endTime":342.498,"body":"be, a successful and w with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":338.454,"endTime":342.498,"body":"this growing demand for tunnels"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":343.008,"endTime":348.684,"body":"growing, Traffic volumes in this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":343.008,"endTime":348.684,"body":"tunnels and the modern view on,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":348.732,"endTime":352.978,"body":"safety, which is unfortunately"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":348.732,"endTime":352.978,"body":"triggered by huge tunnel"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":352.998,"endTime":354.498,"body":"fires we've had in the past."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":355.188,"endTime":358.128,"body":"This project seemed to be"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":355.188,"endTime":358.128,"body":"increasingly challenging,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":358.128,"endTime":361.788,"body":"at least for us in here,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":358.128,"endTime":361.788,"body":"like the expectations"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":361.834,"endTime":363.094,"body":"are higher and higher."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":363.934,"endTime":366.844,"body":"Not necessarily saying that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":363.934,"endTime":366.844,"body":"the targets are higher because"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":366.844,"endTime":370.024,"body":"the target was always for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":366.844,"endTime":370.024,"body":"the tunnel to be safe, but"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":370.084,"endTime":374.734,"body":"the solutions to provide"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":370.084,"endTime":374.734,"body":"that safety are increasing."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":374.764,"endTime":378.874,"body":"Is that something you observe as"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":374.764,"endTime":378.874,"body":"well in you're designing tunnels"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":378.874,"endTime":381.184,"body":"for quite a while, I guess."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":381.669,"endTime":385.456,"body":"and my impression is"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":381.669,"endTime":385.456,"body":"that there's, it's a pendulum."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":385.696,"endTime":388.216,"body":"So after the, the large"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":385.696,"endTime":388.216,"body":"tunnel fires we had."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":389.261,"endTime":390.671,"body":"Demand for safety."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":390.958,"endTime":393.701,"body":"And, the government put"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":390.958,"endTime":393.701,"body":"up a lot of money to"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":393.701,"endTime":395.181,"body":"increase, tunnel safety."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":396.028,"endTime":399.748,"body":"And right now it's"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":396.028,"endTime":399.748,"body":"swinging back a little bit."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":400.229,"endTime":403.079,"body":"in, in central Europe, we've"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":400.229,"endTime":403.079,"body":"got these design codes, so"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":403.079,"endTime":405.943,"body":"everything is pretty much"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":403.079,"endTime":405.943,"body":"defined and it wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":406.093,"endTime":407.713,"body":"decrease much above that."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":408.486,"endTime":410.796,"body":"On the other hand,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":408.486,"endTime":410.796,"body":"there are tendencies to."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":411.095,"endTime":413.965,"body":"Except the higher level"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":411.095,"endTime":413.965,"body":"of risk, for reduced cost."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":414.487,"endTime":417.871,"body":"So at the moment, it's more"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":414.487,"endTime":417.871,"body":"like, possibly going away"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":417.871,"endTime":421.291,"body":"from these prescriptive"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":417.871,"endTime":421.291,"body":"codes to risk analysis."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":421.381,"endTime":425.521,"body":"And in that way to accept"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":421.381,"endTime":425.521,"body":"more risk for particular"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":425.521,"endTime":427.201,"body":"tunnels or infrastructure or."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":427.743,"endTime":429.273,"body":"But"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":427.743,"endTime":429.273,"body":"the thing you can really"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":429.903,"endTime":431.67,"body":"compensate that in the risk."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":432.0,"endTime":435.526,"body":"The bottom line is that if"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":432.0,"endTime":435.526,"body":"you allow for heavy vehicle"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":435.556,"endTime":440.703,"body":"traffic in the tunnel, any"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":435.556,"endTime":440.703,"body":"heavy vehicle traffic, you will"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":440.703,"endTime":441.963,"body":"eventually have a scenario."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":442.808,"endTime":445.628,"body":"There is a large fire in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":442.808,"endTime":445.628,"body":"tunnel, like very large fire."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":445.802,"endTime":449.642,"body":"Even like for me, cutting"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":445.802,"endTime":449.642,"body":"probability by half or"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":449.672,"endTime":452.552,"body":"one-third, it doesn't"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":449.672,"endTime":452.552,"body":"really make such a big"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":452.582,"endTime":454.652,"body":"difference because still"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":452.582,"endTime":454.652,"body":"you have this scenario."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":454.652,"endTime":459.032,"body":"I know it may go from like a 10"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":454.652,"endTime":459.032,"body":"to the minus five to the 10 to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":459.032,"endTime":463.495,"body":"the minus of six, but, is this a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":459.032,"endTime":463.495,"body":"big enough change in probability"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":463.495,"endTime":466.847,"body":"or risk that to, to allow"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":463.495,"endTime":466.847,"body":"significant cost reductions"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":467.872,"endTime":470.56,"body":"the argument"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":467.872,"endTime":470.56,"body":"in Switzerland is that, you"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":470.59,"endTime":473.86,"body":"could save money in your"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":470.59,"endTime":473.86,"body":"tunnel and you could spend"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":473.86,"endTime":475.93,"body":"it elsewhere for road safety."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":476.242,"endTime":476.602,"body":"uh,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":476.627,"endTime":479.357,"body":"So the tunnels"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":476.627,"endTime":479.357,"body":"are inherently more safe than"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":479.357,"endTime":480.977,"body":"the open road in average."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":481.393,"endTime":484.663,"body":"So accepting more risk"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":481.393,"endTime":484.663,"body":"in a tunnel,  set,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":484.679,"endTime":485.757,"body":"gives you additional."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":486.525,"endTime":491.152,"body":"to solve accident points risky"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":486.525,"endTime":491.152,"body":"points on the open road network."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":492.165,"endTime":495.162,"body":"That's the argument and the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":492.165,"endTime":495.162,"body":"truck fire or the dangerous"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":495.162,"endTime":496.482,"body":"goods fire in a tunnel."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":497.772,"endTime":501.222,"body":"You have to weigh it"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":497.772,"endTime":501.222,"body":"against a dangerous goods"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":501.252,"endTime":502.542,"body":"event on the open road."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":503.044,"endTime":505.965,"body":"So we have this discussion"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":503.044,"endTime":505.965,"body":"again in another country,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":506.145,"endTime":509.535,"body":"another project where we"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":506.145,"endTime":509.535,"body":"discuss dangerous goods in the."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":510.435,"endTime":514.048,"body":"And then the argument was what"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":510.435,"endTime":514.048,"body":"happens if the accident is"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":514.048,"endTime":517.368,"body":"not in the tunnel, but in the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":514.048,"endTime":517.368,"body":"residential area above ground."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":518.012,"endTime":523.098,"body":"So in the end, it always should"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":518.012,"endTime":523.098,"body":"be about risk, but the problem"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":523.098,"endTime":525.978,"body":"with risk is then you are"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":523.098,"endTime":525.978,"body":"in performance-based design."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":526.038,"endTime":527.448,"body":"And then it's a question."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":527.448,"endTime":530.298,"body":"How do you prove that you meet"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":527.448,"endTime":530.298,"body":"the requirements and how do you"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":530.298,"endTime":531.972,"body":"prove that you are on the safe."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":532.858,"endTime":534.218,"body":"I like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":532.858,"endTime":534.218,"body":"the two cases that you've made."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":534.218,"endTime":537.938,"body":"One is that the whole road"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":534.218,"endTime":537.938,"body":"system is a, is one body."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":537.938,"endTime":542.315,"body":"And the, you can holistically"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":537.938,"endTime":542.315,"body":"approach it, especially that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":542.645,"endTime":543.875,"body":"in most countries, I would say."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":544.315,"endTime":546.258,"body":"there is some"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":544.315,"endTime":546.258,"body":"governmental authority"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":546.258,"endTime":547.728,"body":"that manages all of it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":547.728,"endTime":549.918,"body":"It's not like a bunch"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":547.728,"endTime":549.918,"body":"of private tunnels of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":549.918,"endTime":551.838,"body":"combating gas companies."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":551.838,"endTime":554.358,"body":"It's, it's mostly, uh, uh,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":551.838,"endTime":554.358,"body":"one network in the country."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":554.358,"endTime":559.572,"body":"And if in fact, you do, free"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":554.358,"endTime":559.572,"body":"funds in one project to improve"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":559.572,"endTime":560.742,"body":"safety in another project."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":560.742,"endTime":561.522,"body":"That's fantastic."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":562.002,"endTime":564.762,"body":"And the second thing you've"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":562.002,"endTime":564.762,"body":"mentioned about the, fire or the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":565.152,"endTime":566.442,"body":"catastrophic event happening."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":567.232,"endTime":569.722,"body":"If there was just the road, not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":567.232,"endTime":569.722,"body":"the tunnel and you're right."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":569.722,"endTime":572.902,"body":"It's a, from my experience"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":569.722,"endTime":572.902,"body":"also is it's usually would"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":572.902,"endTime":575.692,"body":"be worse than in a tunnel,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":572.902,"endTime":575.692,"body":"at least for the people"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":575.872,"endTime":577.195,"body":"around that, location."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":577.195,"endTime":579.802,"body":"And this is a very difficult"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":577.195,"endTime":579.802,"body":"thing to convey to the,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":579.808,"endTime":582.538,"body":"communities that needed tunnels."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":582.668,"endTime":582.878,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":582.878,"endTime":586.298,"body":"It's well, it's the European"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":582.878,"endTime":586.298,"body":"approach that the whole network"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":586.298,"endTime":589.448,"body":"is operated by the government,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":586.298,"endTime":589.448,"body":"but there are numerous countries"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":589.448,"endTime":592.898,"body":"where especially tunnels are"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":589.448,"endTime":592.898,"body":"built and operated by private."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":593.853,"endTime":596.373,"body":"We'd have contracts with"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":593.853,"endTime":596.373,"body":"the road network operator."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":596.973,"endTime":602.017,"body":"And this makes the concept of"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":596.973,"endTime":602.017,"body":"resilience rather complicated"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":602.227,"endTime":606.98,"body":"because the operator looks"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":602.227,"endTime":606.98,"body":"at his object is a piece of"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":606.98,"endTime":609.38,"body":"infrastructure he's tunnel"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":606.98,"endTime":609.38,"body":"or bridge or whatever."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":609.5,"endTime":612.53,"body":"And he wants his, piece of"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":609.5,"endTime":612.53,"body":"road of the road network"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":612.56,"endTime":613.88,"body":"as resilient as possible."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":614.66,"endTime":616.7,"body":"While the network"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":614.66,"endTime":616.7,"body":"operator may not be in."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":617.735,"endTime":620.998,"body":"In that resilience,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":617.735,"endTime":620.998,"body":"especially for an urban town."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":621.208,"endTime":623.858,"body":"When you, you mentioned the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":621.208,"endTime":623.858,"body":"urban tunnels in Poland,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":624.608,"endTime":628.148,"body":"when you have the urban"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":624.608,"endTime":628.148,"body":"road network around that,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":628.388,"endTime":631.898,"body":"if the tunnel has closed,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":628.388,"endTime":631.898,"body":"the traffic capacity will be"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":631.928,"endTime":635.038,"body":"drastically reduced, but the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":631.928,"endTime":635.038,"body":"connection will not be closed."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":635.068,"endTime":639.675,"body":"So it's not such a big issue as"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":635.068,"endTime":639.675,"body":"for a tunnel like Mount Blanc,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":639.955,"endTime":641.545,"body":"or that's really connecting."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":642.302,"endTime":645.843,"body":"and would require a detour"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":642.302,"endTime":645.843,"body":"of hundred kilometers."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":646.623,"endTime":648.378,"body":"it's a different perspective."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":648.408,"endTime":651.198,"body":"Are your network operator,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":648.408,"endTime":651.198,"body":"are you a tunnel operator"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":651.214,"endTime":653.808,"body":"or are you the driver"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":651.214,"endTime":653.808,"body":"just wanting to get from."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":654.608,"endTime":654.986,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":654.998,"endTime":658.375,"body":"From your experience for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":654.998,"endTime":658.375,"body":"this, private projects is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":658.455,"endTime":662.422,"body":"this, capacity to, to restart"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":658.455,"endTime":662.422,"body":"the tunnel, this resiliency."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":662.706,"endTime":666.066,"body":"Reflected in the design,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":662.706,"endTime":666.066,"body":"because, for us, as you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":666.066,"endTime":669.216,"body":"mentioned in European, we"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":666.066,"endTime":669.216,"body":"have standardization and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":669.766,"endTime":672.186,"body":"codes and the good practices"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":669.766,"endTime":672.186,"body":"that we usually follow."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":672.186,"endTime":674.526,"body":"And we're usually"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":672.186,"endTime":674.526,"body":"limited to that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":674.766,"endTime":677.406,"body":"So is this resiliency,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":674.766,"endTime":677.406,"body":"a design factor that you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":677.406,"endTime":678.396,"body":"would design for you?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":678.426,"endTime":680.286,"body":"Would you spend more"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":678.426,"endTime":680.286,"body":"money on the tunnel"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":680.526,"endTime":681.816,"body":"systems, to improve that?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":681.816,"endTime":684.006,"body":"Which like install, uh,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":681.816,"endTime":684.006,"body":"I know sprinklers in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":684.006,"endTime":685.086,"body":"tunnel just for this."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":685.726,"endTime":688.306,"body":"Resilience is a"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":685.726,"endTime":688.306,"body":"rather new concept when it comes"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":688.306,"endTime":690.421,"body":"to tunnels or Road networks."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":690.511,"endTime":693.811,"body":"Let's, let's stick to road"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":690.511,"endTime":693.811,"body":"networks, it's a new concept."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":693.811,"endTime":696.834,"body":"And so far, I think there"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":693.811,"endTime":696.834,"body":"aren't too many examples"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":696.834,"endTime":699.594,"body":"where really improvements"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":696.834,"endTime":699.594,"body":"have been made for resilience."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":700.021,"endTime":705.951,"body":"but, the effects are already"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":700.021,"endTime":705.951,"body":"noticed in, 2016 and 2017, there"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":705.951,"endTime":709.251,"body":"were rather similar fires in"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":705.951,"endTime":709.251,"body":"a road tunnel in Germany and"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":709.251,"endTime":710.931,"body":"in the road tunnel in Austria."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":711.331,"endTime":714.571,"body":"And the German tunnel"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":711.331,"endTime":714.571,"body":"was equipped with a foam"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":714.613,"endTime":716.004,"body":"fire suppression system."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":716.074,"endTime":717.394,"body":"The Austrian tunnel was not."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":717.544,"endTime":721.444,"body":"So the Austrian tunnel had"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":717.544,"endTime":721.444,"body":"a fully developed fire and"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":721.444,"endTime":724.938,"body":"the tunnel was closed for, I"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":721.444,"endTime":724.938,"body":"think just about two months."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":725.304,"endTime":728.694,"body":"And the German tunnel was closed"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":725.304,"endTime":728.694,"body":"for about seven or eight hours."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":729.619,"endTime":734.023,"body":"So that's resilience, but"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":729.619,"endTime":734.023,"body":"then you have to consider"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":734.386,"endTime":737.686,"body":"how much money is the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":734.386,"endTime":737.686,"body":"other two months worth."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":738.319,"endTime":741.529,"body":"is it reasonable to install"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":738.319,"endTime":741.529,"body":"such a system to maintain it"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":741.529,"endTime":743.239,"body":"and test it and operate it?"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":743.359,"endTime":748.249,"body":"Just to get these two months"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":743.359,"endTime":748.249,"body":"of operation every 20 years"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":748.736,"endTime":750.093,"body":"and lots of discussion."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":750.603,"endTime":751.773,"body":"Only starting right now."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":752.073,"endTime":754.553,"body":"I think that's, in most"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":752.073,"endTime":754.553,"body":"existing tunnels, this"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":754.553,"endTime":756.253,"body":"has not been investigated."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":756.558,"endTime":759.258,"body":"for us,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":756.558,"endTime":759.258,"body":"this is in a way problematic"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":759.277,"endTime":763.771,"body":"because in our law system,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":759.277,"endTime":763.771,"body":"which is very prescriptive,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":764.311,"endTime":765.661,"body":"like it gives you this."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":765.669,"endTime":766.869,"body":"Certain requirements."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":766.869,"endTime":770.829,"body":"You'd your total must pass"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":766.869,"endTime":770.829,"body":"to be allowed to be built."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":771.196,"endTime":776.006,"body":"There is almost no ways"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":771.196,"endTime":776.006,"body":"to include, benefits from"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":776.006,"endTime":777.536,"body":"like extinguishing systems."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":777.946,"endTime":778.996,"body":"You, you cannot."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":779.238,"endTime":782.928,"body":"Install a system and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":779.238,"endTime":782.928,"body":"decrease the fire resistance."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":782.958,"endTime":786.848,"body":"If your walls or don't do a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":782.958,"endTime":786.848,"body":"spalling protection on your"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":786.848,"endTime":790.658,"body":"walls, you cannot lower the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":786.848,"endTime":790.658,"body":"capacity of your exhaust system."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":790.658,"endTime":793.408,"body":"You cannot change the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":790.658,"endTime":793.408,"body":"design fire scenario."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":793.408,"endTime":796.318,"body":"Maybe you can, but it takes"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":793.408,"endTime":796.318,"body":"a lot of efforts to do that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":796.768,"endTime":800.181,"body":"So you are not required"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":796.768,"endTime":800.181,"body":"to install it and you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":800.181,"endTime":801.321,"body":"want to install it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":801.784,"endTime":805.204,"body":"You know, the benefits are"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":801.784,"endTime":805.204,"body":"there, but it's difficult for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":805.204,"endTime":809.484,"body":"you to benefit your design"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":805.204,"endTime":809.484,"body":"that would allow you to,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":809.561,"endTime":811.361,"body":"loosen some other requirements."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":811.663,"endTime":813.853,"body":"I don't"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":811.663,"endTime":813.853,"body":"necessarily agree with that."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":814.17,"endTime":817.5,"body":"As an example in Switzerland,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":814.17,"endTime":817.5,"body":"we currently design."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":817.955,"endTime":820.625,"body":"Started to construct"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":817.955,"endTime":820.625,"body":"the second tube of the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":820.625,"endTime":821.555,"body":"Gotthard road tunnel."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":822.725,"endTime":827.345,"body":"And this is in principle, a"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":822.725,"endTime":827.345,"body":"resilience measure because"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":827.765,"endTime":830.075,"body":"it increases the safety"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":827.765,"endTime":830.075,"body":"because we've got uni"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":830.075,"endTime":832.955,"body":"director and the traffic"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":830.075,"endTime":832.955,"body":"in both tunnels in the end."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":833.138,"endTime":837.428,"body":"But first we have to close"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":833.138,"endTime":837.428,"body":"the existing road tunnel for"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":837.938,"endTime":840.158,"body":"a couple of years, month."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":841.071,"endTime":844.75,"body":"And there has been a study"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":841.071,"endTime":844.75,"body":"made on  what to do, uh, while"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":844.75,"endTime":845.95,"body":"the tunnel is refurbished."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":847.09,"endTime":849.617,"body":"And, there were several"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":847.09,"endTime":849.617,"body":"options investigated, like,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":849.663,"endTime":853.263,"body":"temporarily using the old"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":849.663,"endTime":853.263,"body":"rail tunnel, like using the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":853.263,"endTime":856.833,"body":"detour across some Bernardino,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":853.263,"endTime":856.833,"body":"which would mean several"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":856.833,"endTime":858.273,"body":"hundred kilometers of detour."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":858.51,"endTime":861.21,"body":"and the study"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":858.51,"endTime":861.21,"body":"calculated the societal."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":862.275,"endTime":866.535,"body":"So it was not investment against"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":862.275,"endTime":866.535,"body":"investment, but costs societal"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":866.535,"endTime":870.412,"body":"costs, including environmental"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":866.535,"endTime":870.412,"body":"impact, including, increasing"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":870.412,"endTime":872.152,"body":"accidents on the open roads."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":872.695,"endTime":875.602,"body":"so all of this was investigated"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":872.695,"endTime":875.602,"body":"and in the end, the government"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":875.602,"endTime":878.532,"body":"decided, well it's well"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":875.602,"endTime":878.532,"body":"worth building a second"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":878.532,"endTime":882.432,"body":"cube to increase safety"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":878.532,"endTime":882.432,"body":"and, to reduce the impact"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":882.462,"endTime":883.732,"body":"of the tunnel closure."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":884.069,"endTime":889.295,"body":"So this was a cost benefit"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":884.069,"endTime":889.295,"body":"analysis covering the 30 years,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":889.295,"endTime":891.035,"body":"50 years of tunnel operation."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":891.542,"endTime":894.882,"body":"And the government decided,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":891.542,"endTime":894.882,"body":"that it's worth including"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":894.882,"endTime":897.195,"body":"these societal costs,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":894.882,"endTime":897.195,"body":"that's public money."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":897.225,"endTime":898.095,"body":"That's private money."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":898.475,"endTime":899.385,"body":"It's not money."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":899.385,"endTime":901.185,"body":"The government saves directly."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":901.779,"endTime":906.249,"body":"So if, if you have a more global"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":901.779,"endTime":906.249,"body":"view on your infrastructure,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":906.275,"endTime":910.339,"body":"it may be well-worth for the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":906.275,"endTime":910.339,"body":"government as a road network"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":910.369,"endTime":912.289,"body":"operator to increase resilience."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":912.712,"endTime":913.792,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":912.712,"endTime":913.792,"body":"think it's a discussion"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":913.792,"endTime":916.792,"body":"we need to open in Poland"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":913.792,"endTime":916.792,"body":"with our road operator."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":916.832,"endTime":920.602,"body":"They seem to be open for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":916.832,"endTime":920.602,"body":"discussions in fields like that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":920.602,"endTime":923.732,"body":"And I think the points"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":920.602,"endTime":923.732,"body":"are very strong that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":924.262,"endTime":925.402,"body":"you have to look beyond."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":926.047,"endTime":929.6,"body":"Just a, the most basic"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":926.047,"endTime":929.6,"body":"costs of your system."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":929.6,"endTime":930.38,"body":"And that is it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":930.68,"endTime":933.95,"body":"We wouldn't have not even"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":930.68,"endTime":933.95,"body":"mentioned life safety yet in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":933.95,"endTime":937.37,"body":"this discussion because it's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":933.95,"endTime":937.37,"body":"self-evident that if you install"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":937.82,"endTime":942.2,"body":"sprinkler system or some other"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":937.82,"endTime":942.2,"body":"technical means you will also"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":942.2,"endTime":945.83,"body":"improve the life safety and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":942.2,"endTime":945.83,"body":"operational capacities of the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":945.83,"endTime":947.528,"body":"fire brigade, at the same time."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":947.528,"endTime":950.078,"body":"But this is something"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":947.528,"endTime":950.078,"body":"that is, is fundamental."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":950.103,"endTime":951.423,"body":"it's,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":950.103,"endTime":951.423,"body":"it's a standardized"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":952.263,"endTime":953.643,"body":"approach in Switzerland."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":953.673,"endTime":957.303,"body":"You have to do this type of"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":953.673,"endTime":957.303,"body":"it's a defined procedure,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":957.423,"endTime":960.093,"body":"this cost benefit analysis,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":957.423,"endTime":960.093,"body":"and you have to do it for"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":960.093,"endTime":963.243,"body":"every project, every new"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":960.093,"endTime":963.243,"body":"tunnel, every refurbishment"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":963.243,"endTime":966.837,"body":"project, and the Gotthard"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":963.243,"endTime":966.837,"body":"is not the only example."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":966.837,"endTime":969.357,"body":"There's the Belchen"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":966.837,"endTime":969.357,"body":"tunnel, which is."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":970.407,"endTime":973.697,"body":"Along on one of the main"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":970.407,"endTime":973.697,"body":"traffic arteries in Switzerland,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":973.877,"endTime":977.46,"body":"which is now getting a third"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":973.877,"endTime":977.46,"body":"tube for the refurbishment"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":977.46,"endTime":978.87,"body":"of the existing two ones."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":979.14,"endTime":982.02,"body":"And there will never be all"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":979.14,"endTime":982.02,"body":"three cubes open to traffic."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":982.29,"endTime":984.96,"body":"It's just a temporary measure"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":982.29,"endTime":984.96,"body":"for the refurbishment to"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":984.97,"endTime":986.25,"body":"have another tunnel tube."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":986.907,"endTime":990.31,"body":"And it's, the cost"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":986.907,"endTime":990.31,"body":"benefit analysis shows"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":990.31,"endTime":991.84,"body":"it's worth to do that."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":991.84,"endTime":993.88,"body":"It's better than closing"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":991.84,"endTime":993.88,"body":"the tunnel for a couple of."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":994.978,"endTime":996.332,"body":"That is astonishing."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":996.747,"endTime":998.337,"body":"it's"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":996.747,"endTime":998.337,"body":"really the question."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":998.443,"endTime":1001.723,"body":"how do you value the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":998.443,"endTime":1001.723,"body":"time spent for the, the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1001.723,"endTime":1003.433,"body":"driver needs on a detour?"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1004.153,"endTime":1005.473,"body":"How do you deviate the traffic?"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1005.473,"endTime":1006.643,"body":"What's the impact there?"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1007.003,"endTime":1008.773,"body":"And in the end, the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1007.003,"endTime":1008.773,"body":"cost benefit is."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1009.398,"endTime":1010.288,"body":"that is astonishing."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1010.348,"endTime":1013.618,"body":"I wanted to drive the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1010.348,"endTime":1013.618,"body":"discussion towards refurbishment"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1013.618,"endTime":1017.905,"body":"because, I also know that in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1013.618,"endTime":1017.905,"body":"the Western Europe, like in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1017.905,"endTime":1020.905,"body":"Germany, or I assume in Austria"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1017.905,"endTime":1020.905,"body":"and Switzerland as well."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1021.045,"endTime":1023.485,"body":"The tunnel network is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1021.045,"endTime":1023.485,"body":"actually quite old."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1023.815,"endTime":1026.935,"body":"You guys have been"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1023.815,"endTime":1026.935,"body":"digging these things for,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1026.988,"endTime":1028.758,"body":"hundreds of years almost."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1028.938,"endTime":1032.468,"body":"I think the, the median"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1028.938,"endTime":1032.468,"body":"age of a railway tunnel in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1032.468,"endTime":1033.698,"body":"Germany is above hundred."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1034.088,"endTime":1035.577,"body":"So that's quite a challenge."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1036.027,"endTime":1036.807,"body":"I wonder."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1036.882,"endTime":1040.082,"body":"How you approach, like you've"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1036.882,"endTime":1040.082,"body":"mentioned now that the third"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1040.082,"endTime":1044.092,"body":"tube, which is for me exotic"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1040.082,"endTime":1044.092,"body":"and amazing concept to, to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1044.092,"endTime":1048.262,"body":"build for resiliency, but how"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1044.092,"endTime":1048.262,"body":"you approach like developing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1048.262,"endTime":1050.992,"body":"safety and resiliency."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1050.992,"endTime":1053.662,"body":"When you get into a tunnel"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1050.992,"endTime":1053.662,"body":"that's a hundred years"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1053.662,"endTime":1056.372,"body":"old and you have to work"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1053.662,"endTime":1056.372,"body":"with what you have there."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1056.593,"endTime":1058.58,"body":"There's"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1056.593,"endTime":1058.58,"body":"no general approach at"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1058.58,"endTime":1059.84,"body":"first, you have to that's."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1060.08,"endTime":1062.42,"body":"These are the most interesting"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1060.08,"endTime":1062.42,"body":"projects for the design."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1062.42,"endTime":1066.29,"body":"Of course, first you have"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1062.42,"endTime":1066.29,"body":"to see what is what's there"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1066.44,"endTime":1068.21,"body":"and what can you do with it?"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1068.21,"endTime":1071.4,"body":"And is it possible to upgrade"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1068.21,"endTime":1071.4,"body":"it to current standards or do"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1071.4,"endTime":1074.68,"body":"you have to deviate from that"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1071.4,"endTime":1074.68,"body":"because of the stuff you have."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1075.952,"endTime":1079.928,"body":"we have ventilation systems"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1075.952,"endTime":1079.928,"body":"conversion from transverse"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1079.928,"endTime":1082.868,"body":"fully transfers concept"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1079.928,"endTime":1082.868,"body":"to longitudinal concept"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1083.228,"endTime":1085.508,"body":"or longetudinally with"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1083.228,"endTime":1085.508,"body":"local smoke extraction."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1086.348,"endTime":1089.318,"body":"Then you get different pressure"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1086.348,"endTime":1089.318,"body":"forces on the false ceilings."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1089.318,"endTime":1093.785,"body":"So do you have to strengthen"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1089.318,"endTime":1093.785,"body":"the false ceiling or do you have"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1093.785,"endTime":1097.385,"body":"to reduce the flow rates or do"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1093.785,"endTime":1097.385,"body":"you have to change the concept?"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1098.277,"endTime":1101.997,"body":"Change your fans from fixed"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1098.277,"endTime":1101.997,"body":"blade to variable pitch."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1103.197,"endTime":1105.297,"body":"There are so many options"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1103.197,"endTime":1105.297,"body":"what you can do, but you"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1105.297,"endTime":1107.037,"body":"have to analyze each project."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1107.441,"endTime":1109.04,"body":"this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1107.441,"endTime":1109.04,"body":"intriguing guy you've said"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1109.1,"endTime":1110.8,"body":"transversal into longitudinal"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1111.166,"endTime":1113.17,"body":"there are a couple"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1111.166,"endTime":1113.17,"body":"of tunnels where we remove"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1113.18,"endTime":1115.78,"body":"the false ceiling and use"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1113.18,"endTime":1115.78,"body":"the full cross-section for"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1115.78,"endTime":1116.95,"body":"longitudinal ventilation."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1117.58,"endTime":1118.6,"body":"When it's unidirectional."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1119.317,"endTime":1122.617,"body":"there are projects where"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1119.317,"endTime":1122.617,"body":"part of the full ceiling"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1122.647,"endTime":1126.967,"body":"has been removed to make"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1122.647,"endTime":1126.967,"body":"room for jet fans and other"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1126.967,"endTime":1131.287,"body":"parts are sturdy used as a"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1126.967,"endTime":1131.287,"body":"cable tunnel or cable duct."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1131.93,"endTime":1135.26,"body":"it's the kind of work where you"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1131.93,"endTime":1135.26,"body":"as a designer can become really."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1135.98,"endTime":1138.88,"body":"I'm asking"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1135.98,"endTime":1138.88,"body":"that because in here we have."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1138.937,"endTime":1142.387,"body":"this assumption, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1138.937,"endTime":1142.387,"body":"not sure where it came from"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1142.387,"endTime":1145.037,"body":"that transversal system"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1142.387,"endTime":1145.037,"body":"is, universally better"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1145.037,"endTime":1146.687,"body":"than longitudinal system."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1147.257,"endTime":1149.963,"body":"And, I have worked with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1147.257,"endTime":1149.963,"body":"transpersonal systems"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1149.963,"endTime":1151.41,"body":"and, I'm not necessarily."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1152.045,"endTime":1155.195,"body":"Convinced that is the case"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1152.045,"endTime":1155.195,"body":"probably when you have by"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1155.195,"endTime":1157.025,"body":"direction, a little tunnel,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1155.195,"endTime":1157.025,"body":"that's the only way you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1157.025,"endTime":1160.395,"body":"can go,  to have, safe"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1157.025,"endTime":1160.395,"body":"conditions, both sides."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1160.845,"endTime":1164.305,"body":"But if the traffic"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1160.845,"endTime":1164.305,"body":"is unidirectional, it"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1164.305,"endTime":1165.865,"body":"really don't feel that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1166.225,"endTime":1166.975,"body":"improvement."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1167.235,"endTime":1167.825,"body":"transversal."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1168.165,"endTime":1171.495,"body":"I mean, distributed, fresh air"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1168.165,"endTime":1171.495,"body":"and distributed exhaust there."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1171.825,"endTime":1175.065,"body":"I mean, we've got the, we've got"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1171.825,"endTime":1175.065,"body":"the local smoke extraction with"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1175.065,"endTime":1178.695,"body":"the dampers and this is still,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1175.065,"endTime":1178.695,"body":"this is used in new tunnels"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1178.755,"endTime":1180.105,"body":"in new bi-directional towns."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1180.105,"endTime":1180.465,"body":"Have a certain."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1181.384,"endTime":1185.498,"body":"but, uh, we found after the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1181.384,"endTime":1185.498,"body":"large fires in Europe, that"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1185.498,"endTime":1188.352,"body":"the distributed exhausts"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1185.498,"endTime":1188.352,"body":"doesn't really work."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1188.66,"endTime":1190.488,"body":"you have to have local"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1188.66,"endTime":1190.488,"body":"extraction in half."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1190.638,"endTime":1194.125,"body":"You have to have airflow control"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1190.638,"endTime":1194.125,"body":"in the tunnel using jet fans"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1194.145,"endTime":1195.818,"body":"to control the flow velocity."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1196.223,"endTime":1196.583,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1196.845,"endTime":1198.675,"body":"and this"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1196.845,"endTime":1198.675,"body":"control algorithms"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1198.735,"endTime":1200.235,"body":"are still challenging."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1200.45,"endTime":1200.96,"body":"I know"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1202.285,"endTime":1204.589,"body":"They asked that"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1202.285,"endTime":1204.589,"body":"used in Switzerland, in"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1204.589,"endTime":1206.149,"body":"Austria for a long time now."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1206.179,"endTime":1209.585,"body":"And they work pretty well,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1206.179,"endTime":1209.585,"body":"but still the requirements, in"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1209.585,"endTime":1212.692,"body":"my opinion, the requirements"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1209.585,"endTime":1212.692,"body":"are not Very well-defined."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1213.345,"endTime":1214.755,"body":"We know where we want to go."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1214.995,"endTime":1217.572,"body":"We want to have symmetric"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1214.995,"endTime":1217.572,"body":"flow or we want to have"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1217.572,"endTime":1218.862,"body":"a reduced flow velocity."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1218.862,"endTime":1221.412,"body":"If there's no smoke"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1218.862,"endTime":1221.412,"body":"extraction, we don't go"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1221.412,"endTime":1222.192,"body":"for critical analysis."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1223.107,"endTime":1223.557,"body":"I love you."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1224.732,"endTime":1227.282,"body":"But it's, currently"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1224.732,"endTime":1227.282,"body":"these control algorithms"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1227.312,"endTime":1229.052,"body":"are defined as you have."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1229.262,"endTime":1232.575,"body":"You have to get to that target"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1229.262,"endTime":1232.575,"body":"and you have to get there within"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1232.665,"endTime":1237.13,"body":"say five minutes after fire"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1232.665,"endTime":1237.13,"body":"detecion But I think that that's"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1237.13,"endTime":1240.94,"body":"not enough because sometimes"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1237.13,"endTime":1240.94,"body":"it's better to approach to"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1240.94,"endTime":1244.3,"body":"do it slowly and not use all"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1240.94,"endTime":1244.3,"body":"the jet fans in the tunnel."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1244.48,"endTime":1247.21,"body":"And today there are jet"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1244.48,"endTime":1247.21,"body":"fans of their tunnels where"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1247.45,"endTime":1249.88,"body":"when the tires detected"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1247.45,"endTime":1249.88,"body":"all the jet fans thought,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1250.164,"endTime":1252.994,"body":"and these designers,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1250.164,"endTime":1252.994,"body":"I think, forgot that."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1253.461,"endTime":1257.61,"body":"The reason why you want to"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1253.461,"endTime":1257.61,"body":"achieve that target of maybe 1.5"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1257.61,"endTime":1260.67,"body":"meter per second, you want to"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1257.61,"endTime":1260.67,"body":"maintain smoke stratification."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1261.66,"endTime":1264.9,"body":"And if you spin on all the jet"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1261.66,"endTime":1264.9,"body":"fans in the tunnel, you don't"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1264.9,"endTime":1266.49,"body":"have any smoke stratification."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1267.353,"endTime":1269.634,"body":"So the measure"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1267.353,"endTime":1269.634,"body":"defeats the objective"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1270.304,"endTime":1270.86,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1271.25,"endTime":1274.4,"body":"I love how you segwayed"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1271.25,"endTime":1274.4,"body":"me into the next question"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1274.4,"endTime":1275.57,"body":"I wanted to ask you."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1275.96,"endTime":1279.834,"body":"You you've mentioned symmetric,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1275.96,"endTime":1279.834,"body":"conditions at ends of the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1279.834,"endTime":1284.127,"body":"smoke controls, zone and,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1279.834,"endTime":1284.127,"body":"some assumptions behind"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1284.277,"endTime":1286.597,"body":"the flow management, like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1284.277,"endTime":1286.597,"body":"starting all the jet-fans at"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1286.597,"endTime":1289.927,"body":"the same, or, or controlling"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1286.597,"endTime":1289.927,"body":"that in a better way."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1290.95,"endTime":1296.08,"body":"A lot of that comes to this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1290.95,"endTime":1296.08,"body":"unrealistic assumptions"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1296.08,"endTime":1300.324,"body":"or ideas that we go"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1296.08,"endTime":1300.324,"body":"when we modeled tunnels."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1300.957,"endTime":1303.892,"body":"if you, Go into, um,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1300.957,"endTime":1303.892,"body":"project with the download"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1303.892,"endTime":1307.182,"body":"and you simulate it or you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1303.892,"endTime":1307.182,"body":"check out the simulations."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1307.649,"endTime":1310.245,"body":"the there's usually no"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1307.649,"endTime":1310.245,"body":"traffic because it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1310.245,"endTime":1313.515,"body":"a hell of a problem to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1310.245,"endTime":1313.515,"body":"model traffic along CFD."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1313.815,"endTime":1317.432,"body":"Or even if you did, it's,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1313.815,"endTime":1317.432,"body":"not really reliable because."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1317.835,"endTime":1320.59,"body":"Small change in traffic will"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1317.835,"endTime":1320.59,"body":"result in large change in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1320.59,"endTime":1322.05,"body":"the simulation outcomes."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1322.05,"endTime":1325.24,"body":"So you would have to run a,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1322.05,"endTime":1325.24,"body":"some Monte Carlo probably"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1325.24,"endTime":1327.13,"body":"to get it right, and that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1325.24,"endTime":1327.13,"body":"you cannot afford that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1327.87,"endTime":1330.477,"body":"you usually start with the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1327.87,"endTime":1330.477,"body":"initial conditions like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1330.477,"endTime":1335.867,"body":"zero, uh, zero velocity and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1330.477,"endTime":1335.867,"body":"no movement static field."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1336.177,"endTime":1339.828,"body":"Then you start your fire,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1336.177,"endTime":1339.828,"body":"which is a beautiful, buoynt"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1339.898,"endTime":1343.03,"body":"plume that touches your"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1339.898,"endTime":1343.03,"body":"ceiling flows both directions."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1343.58,"endTime":1346.81,"body":"Then you start your fans"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1343.58,"endTime":1346.81,"body":"and they disturb it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1347.44,"endTime":1351.527,"body":"You don't usually consider"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1347.44,"endTime":1351.527,"body":"metrology like the weather"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1351.527,"endTime":1354.86,"body":"conditions outside and not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1351.527,"endTime":1354.86,"body":"even touch the mistakes"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1354.86,"endTime":1357.2,"body":"people doing the simulations"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1354.86,"endTime":1357.2,"body":"with the grid size or."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1357.78,"endTime":1360.77,"body":"Or a bunch of conditions"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1357.78,"endTime":1360.77,"body":"but this initial image is so"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1360.8,"endTime":1364.28,"body":"different than what you would"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1360.8,"endTime":1364.28,"body":"see in a tunnel where you're"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1364.28,"endTime":1368.727,"body":"in one  we have a tunnel"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1364.28,"endTime":1368.727,"body":"with it, with a bus stop in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1368.727,"endTime":1369.887,"body":"the middle of it in Warsaw."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1369.887,"endTime":1373.847,"body":"So if you go there, there is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1369.887,"endTime":1373.847,"body":"definitely a movement in there."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1374.237,"endTime":1377.057,"body":"Uh, not to mention that noise"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1374.237,"endTime":1377.057,"body":"is unbearable but the air"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1377.057,"endTime":1378.347,"body":"movement is always there."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1378.347,"endTime":1382.25,"body":"And, it doesn't like magically"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1378.347,"endTime":1382.25,"body":"disappear when you have a fire."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1382.64,"endTime":1386.365,"body":"So your initial field yes,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1382.64,"endTime":1386.365,"body":"it's already, you need"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1386.365,"endTime":1387.775,"body":"directional air movement."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1387.775,"endTime":1390.745,"body":"That will make a lot of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1387.775,"endTime":1390.745,"body":"funny things to the smoke."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1391.015,"endTime":1394.592,"body":"And I'm doing this simulations"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1391.015,"endTime":1394.592,"body":"and I'm doing it like everyone"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1394.592,"endTime":1398.522,"body":"is doing because otherwise I"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1394.592,"endTime":1398.522,"body":"would not be able to explain to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1398.522,"endTime":1401.522,"body":"the stakeholders why I'd done it"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1398.522,"endTime":1401.522,"body":"differently in why it's better."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1402.162,"endTime":1403.512,"body":"Maybe I should try one day."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1403.572,"endTime":1404.052,"body":"We'll see."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1404.387,"endTime":1408.167,"body":"I think it did go well, but"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1404.387,"endTime":1408.167,"body":"you know, there is something"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1408.317,"endTime":1411.377,"body":"with this that we, we put so"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1408.317,"endTime":1411.377,"body":"much focus into super detailed"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1411.377,"endTime":1414.317,"body":"analysis where the initial"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1411.377,"endTime":1414.317,"body":"conditions are just plain wrong"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1414.707,"endTime":1417.497,"body":"and I feel I'm doing it wrong."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1417.857,"endTime":1418.967,"body":"Are you doing it wrong as well?"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1419.727,"endTime":1423.087,"body":"I think I never had"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1419.727,"endTime":1423.087,"body":"to do a CFD design safety of a"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1423.087,"endTime":1424.587,"body":"simulations for a tunnel design."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1425.097,"endTime":1425.547,"body":"Really?"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1426.251,"endTime":1429.101,"body":"I think for a few"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1426.251,"endTime":1429.101,"body":"projects, we had to deliver"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1429.101,"endTime":1433.271,"body":"it, but this was more about"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1429.101,"endTime":1433.271,"body":"jet fan debt, impingement on"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1433.271,"endTime":1434.741,"body":"traffic and things like that."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1434.801,"endTime":1437.111,"body":"But I didn't never"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1434.801,"endTime":1437.111,"body":"did a fire simulation."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1437.171,"endTime":1438.581,"body":"I always avoided that."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1439.181,"endTime":1442.507,"body":"And today when I'm"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1439.181,"endTime":1442.507,"body":"working on a project, I"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1442.507,"endTime":1443.587,"body":"have someone else do it."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1443.887,"endTime":1445.327,"body":"I'm not really"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1443.887,"endTime":1445.327,"body":"interested in this."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1446.017,"endTime":1448.897,"body":"When I see the fire life"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1446.017,"endTime":1448.897,"body":"safety report for these"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1448.981,"endTime":1450.031,"body":"performance based design."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1450.71,"endTime":1455.886,"body":"Project, they do it, as you"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1450.71,"endTime":1455.886,"body":"say, they use FDS and they use"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1455.886,"endTime":1459.006,"body":"standard boundary conditions,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1455.886,"endTime":1459.006,"body":"still air as an initial"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1459.006,"endTime":1460.806,"body":"condition, no traffic movement."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1462.126,"endTime":1466.116,"body":"And they have an egress model"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1462.126,"endTime":1466.116,"body":"showing that everyone gets"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1466.116,"endTime":1469.529,"body":"to the nearest door And well,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1466.116,"endTime":1469.529,"body":"you have the two scenarios."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1469.529,"endTime":1472.079,"body":"You have the unidirectional"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1469.529,"endTime":1472.079,"body":"traffic, which is boring"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1472.109,"endTime":1473.339,"body":"because the result is always."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1474.131,"endTime":1476.051,"body":"And you have the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1474.131,"endTime":1476.051,"body":"bi-directional tunnel where"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1476.141,"endTime":1477.371,"body":"things get really messy."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1479.426,"endTime":1480.506,"body":"and reasonably is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1480.506,"endTime":1482.366,"body":"always complicated."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1482.561,"endTime":1485.801,"body":"what I would like"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1482.561,"endTime":1485.801,"body":"to do at least in the initial,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1485.951,"endTime":1489.904,"body":"I mean, it's, it's really,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1485.951,"endTime":1489.904,"body":"a scientific level of CFD."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1489.904,"endTime":1493.624,"body":"If you start with moving"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1489.904,"endTime":1493.624,"body":"vehicles and moving boundary"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1493.624,"endTime":1497.147,"body":"conditions and dynamic"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1493.624,"endTime":1497.147,"body":"flow conditions, that's"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1497.147,"endTime":1499.531,"body":"not standard stuff you"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1497.147,"endTime":1499.531,"body":"would expect in a design."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1500.244,"endTime":1504.036,"body":"But what you can do is you"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1500.244,"endTime":1504.036,"body":"can combine the findings"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1504.101,"endTime":1508.399,"body":"from this kind of steady"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1504.101,"endTime":1508.399,"body":"state CFT, 3d modeling"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1508.819,"endTime":1510.259,"body":"with a dynamic 1-D model."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1510.872,"endTime":1514.442,"body":"So you combine how realistic"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1510.872,"endTime":1514.442,"body":"you can prove show how"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1514.442,"endTime":1517.682,"body":"realistic or unreal realistic"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1514.442,"endTime":1517.682,"body":"are the boundary conditions."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1517.726,"endTime":1521.379,"body":"And then you have to make"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1517.726,"endTime":1521.379,"body":"an interpretation, which is."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1521.709,"endTime":1524.227,"body":"Difficult for the client"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1521.709,"endTime":1524.227,"body":"because he wants to see the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1524.227,"endTime":1525.727,"body":"numbers and the pictures."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1525.757,"endTime":1526.987,"body":"What does the smoke do?"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1527.567,"endTime":1529.491,"body":"But I think that would"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1527.567,"endTime":1529.491,"body":"be the right way to."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1530.321,"endTime":1532.541,"body":"You"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1530.321,"endTime":1532.541,"body":"think that in this field?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1533.113,"endTime":1536.816,"body":"1-D modeling or"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1533.113,"endTime":1536.816,"body":"the traffic, sorry."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1536.856,"endTime":1541.436,"body":"The network, a modeling of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1536.856,"endTime":1541.436,"body":"tunnels would be a superior to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1541.436,"endTime":1545.726,"body":"CFD because of this capacity"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1541.436,"endTime":1545.726,"body":"to model multiple scenarios"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1546.086,"endTime":1549.026,"body":"versus a nice three dimensional"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1546.086,"endTime":1549.026,"body":"flow field in a, in a"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1549.651,"endTime":1552.441,"body":"the thing about"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1549.651,"endTime":1552.441,"body":"1D is when I do a tunnel model"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1552.441,"endTime":1557.561,"body":"and simulate a fire, I have"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1552.441,"endTime":1557.561,"body":"about seven seconds simulation."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1558.05,"endTime":1558.961,"body":"For a scenario."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1559.976,"endTime":1560.216,"body":"that's"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1560.251,"endTime":1562.891,"body":"So there are quite"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1560.251,"endTime":1562.891,"body":"a lot of scenarios I can look at"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1563.261,"endTime":1566.441,"body":"and find the critical ones and"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1563.261,"endTime":1566.441,"body":"understand how the system works."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1566.441,"endTime":1569.524,"body":"If it's a steep gradient"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1566.441,"endTime":1569.524,"body":"tunnel that the behavior"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1569.524,"endTime":1571.293,"body":"will show me a pattern."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1571.714,"endTime":1575.824,"body":"And if I interpret this"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1571.714,"endTime":1575.824,"body":"pattern, right, I can develop"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1575.854,"endTime":1581.007,"body":"the optimized ventilation"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1575.854,"endTime":1581.007,"body":"solution A single CFD simulation"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1581.037,"endTime":1584.007,"body":"3d will not help me to see."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1585.168,"endTime":1586.492,"body":"that's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1585.168,"endTime":1586.492,"body":"really that's powerful."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1586.492,"endTime":1589.692,"body":"I, our experience is, opposite."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1589.722,"endTime":1594.046,"body":"We would, do CFD"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1589.722,"endTime":1594.046,"body":"for this projects."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1594.624,"endTime":1597.954,"body":"Mainly, well, we're"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1594.624,"endTime":1597.954,"body":"usually having jet fans"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1597.954,"endTime":1599.064,"body":"and stuff like that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1599.064,"endTime":1603.41,"body":"And you would like to see is the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1599.064,"endTime":1603.41,"body":"placement of jet fence, correct?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1603.487,"endTime":1605.287,"body":"did they interfere"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1603.487,"endTime":1605.287,"body":"with each other?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1605.737,"endTime":1608.807,"body":"But frankly, the reality"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1605.737,"endTime":1608.807,"body":"is the main goal is, is to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1608.837,"endTime":1612.501,"body":"present the authorities with,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1608.837,"endTime":1612.501,"body":"proof of compliance that,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1612.654,"endTime":1614.904,"body":"the conditions are maintained"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1612.654,"endTime":1614.904,"body":"for like seven minutes."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1614.914,"endTime":1615.954,"body":"And they're good."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1616.554,"endTime":1617.154,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1617.164,"endTime":1620.307,"body":"From this perspective,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1617.164,"endTime":1620.307,"body":"the CFDs is necessary as."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1620.977,"endTime":1627.167,"body":"We as engineers, we benefit from"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1620.977,"endTime":1627.167,"body":"it partially by investigating"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1627.167,"endTime":1627.977,"body":"some of the aspects."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1627.977,"endTime":1631.827,"body":"But as you said, it's not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1627.977,"endTime":1631.827,"body":"possible to, it's not realistic."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1631.827,"endTime":1632.817,"body":"I mean, it is possible."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1632.817,"endTime":1635.247,"body":"It's just not realistic"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1632.817,"endTime":1635.247,"body":"or economically viable"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1635.247,"endTime":1639.687,"body":"to do, to run into this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1635.247,"endTime":1639.687,"body":"complex simulations."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1639.687,"endTime":1643.831,"body":"So with, multiple variables"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1639.687,"endTime":1643.831,"body":"in, in included in them and."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1644.112,"endTime":1648.102,"body":"In that case, this is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1644.112,"endTime":1648.102,"body":"1-D modeling or network"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1648.102,"endTime":1650.682,"body":"modeling seems like an"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1648.102,"endTime":1650.682,"body":"interesting approach."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1651.012,"endTime":1655.362,"body":"We also deal with some"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1651.012,"endTime":1655.362,"body":"very complex tunnel system."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1656.207,"endTime":1661.037,"body":"That have junctions connections,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1656.207,"endTime":1661.037,"body":"multiple levels, not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1661.037,"endTime":1662.517,"body":"necessarily in road tunnels."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1662.687,"endTime":1663.437,"body":"In road tunnels."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1663.507,"endTime":1666.287,"body":"The world is a little simpler,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1663.507,"endTime":1666.287,"body":"but in railway tunnels, when"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1666.287,"endTime":1669.947,"body":"you have a rail network with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1666.287,"endTime":1669.947,"body":"stations and stations have"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1669.947,"endTime":1675.447,"body":"multiple levels, we felt that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1669.947,"endTime":1675.447,"body":"CFD was the only way we could"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1675.447,"endTime":1679.017,"body":"truly track where the air will"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1675.447,"endTime":1679.017,"body":"go once it enters the station."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1679.047,"endTime":1681.147,"body":"If it has seven"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1679.047,"endTime":1681.147,"body":"possible outlets."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1681.312,"endTime":1684.072,"body":"I mean the state"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1681.312,"endTime":1684.072,"body":"railway station, an underground"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1684.072,"endTime":1687.542,"body":"railway station is a classic"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1684.072,"endTime":1687.542,"body":"example where you need CFD"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1688.482,"endTime":1689.652,"body":"that's not one dimensional."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1689.832,"endTime":1691.182,"body":"That's highly three-dimensional."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1691.651,"endTime":1692.191,"body":"exactly."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1692.617,"endTime":1695.227,"body":"so you would also have these"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1692.617,"endTime":1695.227,"body":"experiences switching from"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1695.227,"endTime":1696.855,"body":"tool to tool in this manner."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1697.153,"endTime":1698.52,"body":"well, I,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1697.153,"endTime":1698.52,"body":"I've done very little"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1698.52,"endTime":1700.563,"body":"CFD in my, Past work."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1701.678,"endTime":1701.978,"body":"Uh,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1702.183,"endTime":1704.643,"body":"it's usually, uh,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1702.183,"endTime":1704.643,"body":"we have specialists for that."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1704.836,"endTime":1707.543,"body":"I don't do it myself, but"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1704.836,"endTime":1707.543,"body":"I can, set the, define"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1707.543,"endTime":1708.623,"body":"the boundary conditions."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1708.623,"endTime":1710.153,"body":"I can discuss the results."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1710.243,"endTime":1713.55,"body":"I can understand the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1710.243,"endTime":1713.55,"body":"flow, the mechanics of the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1713.55,"endTime":1714.9,"body":"software, I leave that to."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1715.735,"endTime":1718.555,"body":"I actually"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1715.735,"endTime":1718.555,"body":"highly respect that because I"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1718.555,"endTime":1722.605,"body":"think this approach should be"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1718.555,"endTime":1722.605,"body":"more widespread in the world and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1722.605,"endTime":1727.405,"body":"we would have much less issues"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1722.605,"endTime":1727.405,"body":"with the systems as we do today."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1727.945,"endTime":1730.945,"body":"I wanted to ask for another,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1727.945,"endTime":1730.945,"body":"interesting feedback loop"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1730.975,"endTime":1733.665,"body":"that it's obvious, but"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1730.975,"endTime":1733.665,"body":"it's in the way missing."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1734.315,"endTime":1738.305,"body":"Impact of the airflow velocity"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1734.315,"endTime":1738.305,"body":"and the growth of a fire or"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1738.305,"endTime":1741.965,"body":"in general, our design fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1738.305,"endTime":1741.965,"body":"assumptions for tunnels."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1742.46,"endTime":1745.73,"body":"we've as a humanity, we've"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1742.46,"endTime":1745.73,"body":"been lucky enough to have"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1745.76,"endTime":1749.78,"body":"some full-scale controlled"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1745.76,"endTime":1749.78,"body":"tunnel fire experiments."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1749.78,"endTime":1754.22,"body":"Like the Memorial tunnel that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1749.78,"endTime":1754.22,"body":"has been mentioned, the Eureka"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1754.22,"endTime":1758.21,"body":"Upton, there was Runehammar"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1754.22,"endTime":1758.21,"body":"a fire tests that, or that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1758.21,"endTime":1759.23,"body":"was the part of Eureka."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1759.32,"endTime":1761.0,"body":"I always confuse them."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1761.07,"endTime":1762.41,"body":"I think"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1761.07,"endTime":1762.41,"body":"that was part of Eureka"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1762.676,"endTime":1764.227,"body":"there,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1762.676,"endTime":1764.227,"body":"there was the Metro project"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1764.227,"endTime":1767.676,"body":"in Sweden, probably many more,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1764.227,"endTime":1767.676,"body":"fire experiments in the tunnels."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1767.916,"endTime":1770.866,"body":"There's a tunnel testing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1767.916,"endTime":1770.866,"body":"facility in, in Spain,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1771.42,"endTime":1773.73,"body":"in Applus I think it's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1771.42,"endTime":1773.73,"body":"called the laboratory."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1774.13,"endTime":1778.063,"body":"so we, we have this data points,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1774.13,"endTime":1778.063,"body":"and they show you the causes"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1778.063,"endTime":1782.633,"body":"of, large vehicle fires and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1778.063,"endTime":1782.633,"body":"we just go and employ them in."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1783.113,"endTime":1786.713,"body":"Design, but now when you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1783.113,"endTime":1786.713,"body":"think about fires in tunnels,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1786.773,"endTime":1791.066,"body":"there are factors that will"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1786.773,"endTime":1791.066,"body":"for sure change the way, how"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1791.066,"endTime":1794.396,"body":"the fire goes first, being"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1791.066,"endTime":1794.396,"body":"the velocity of the air."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1794.816,"endTime":1796.346,"body":"So you may have."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1796.564,"endTime":1800.408,"body":"Something near the critical"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1796.564,"endTime":1800.408,"body":"velocity where you just push the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1800.408,"endTime":1803.528,"body":"smoke, but not necessarily grow"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1800.408,"endTime":1803.528,"body":"the fire, but if you blow 10"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1803.528,"endTime":1807.038,"body":"meters per second on the fire,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1803.528,"endTime":1807.038,"body":"I mean, you don't have to be"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1807.038,"endTime":1809.438,"body":"a fire engineer to understand"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1807.038,"endTime":1809.438,"body":"that increases the severity"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1809.438,"endTime":1811.208,"body":"of the fire and the same with."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1811.688,"endTime":1814.848,"body":"cross section of the tunnel,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1811.688,"endTime":1814.848,"body":"the, the hammer was like 47"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1814.848,"endTime":1816.318,"body":"square meters in cross section."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1816.318,"endTime":1818.808,"body":"There was a tiny tunnel"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1816.318,"endTime":1818.808,"body":"and the huge fire in it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1818.808,"endTime":1822.048,"body":"So the radiation from the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1818.808,"endTime":1822.048,"body":"walls is completely different"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1822.048,"endTime":1824.145,"body":"than you would have, in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1822.048,"endTime":1824.145,"body":"tunnel that was drilled with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1824.145,"endTime":1826.335,"body":"12 meter diameter TBM machine."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1826.828,"endTime":1829.985,"body":"so I wonder to what extent."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1830.685,"endTime":1834.075,"body":"It makes sense to use"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1830.685,"endTime":1834.075,"body":"these design fires as the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1834.075,"endTime":1837.888,"body":"ultimate basis for our design"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1834.075,"endTime":1837.888,"body":"and other in other way."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1837.888,"endTime":1840.108,"body":"I don't think we have"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1837.888,"endTime":1840.108,"body":"another choice though."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1840.879,"endTime":1842.619,"body":"I didn't look"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1840.879,"endTime":1842.619,"body":"too much into that because"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1842.619,"endTime":1845.919,"body":"the fire dynamics, that's not"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1842.619,"endTime":1845.919,"body":"really my field of expertise."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1846.149,"endTime":1849.449,"body":"an interesting, interesting"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1846.149,"endTime":1849.449,"body":"aspect was brought up in the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1849.449,"endTime":1852.569,"body":"paper in Gratz in 2020, the."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1853.086,"endTime":1856.623,"body":"Geometry of the fire, is it"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1853.086,"endTime":1856.623,"body":"usually we assume it's a point,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1856.773,"endTime":1860.846,"body":"a mathematical point in the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1856.773,"endTime":1860.846,"body":"tunnel but if it's a rail wagon"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1860.846,"endTime":1864.236,"body":"on fire or a rail train, which"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1860.846,"endTime":1864.236,"body":"really, if you have the large"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1864.266,"endTime":1866.036,"body":"fires, it can't be a point."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1866.036,"endTime":1868.706,"body":"It must have some"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1866.036,"endTime":1868.706,"body":"longitudinal extension"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1869.606,"endTime":1871.526,"body":"and the physics change."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1871.556,"endTime":1875.126,"body":"If your fire is five meter"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1871.556,"endTime":1875.126,"body":"long, or if it's 50 meters"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1875.126,"endTime":1877.313,"body":"long and the critical"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1875.126,"endTime":1877.313,"body":"velocity will change."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1878.113,"endTime":1881.013,"body":"the smoke spreading will"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1878.113,"endTime":1881.013,"body":"change the oxygen supply"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1881.013,"endTime":1882.603,"body":"towards the fire will change."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1883.15,"endTime":1886.27,"body":"I don't think this has been"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1883.15,"endTime":1886.27,"body":"investigated in any depth."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1887.074,"endTime":1887.955,"body":"the, the fire is also."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1888.578,"endTime":1889.508,"body":"It pumps air."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1889.537,"endTime":1892.265,"body":"If you take cold air you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1889.537,"endTime":1892.265,"body":"heat it up, you pump it"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1892.301,"endTime":1894.161,"body":"upward and it goes away."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1894.581,"endTime":1899.271,"body":"So it needs a lot of air for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1894.581,"endTime":1899.271,"body":"a hundred megawatts fire."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1899.631,"endTime":1902.841,"body":"And if you do a CFD, you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1899.631,"endTime":1902.841,"body":"can see a local velocities"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1902.841,"endTime":1906.021,"body":"of like five, 10 meters per"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1902.841,"endTime":1906.021,"body":"second near the fire, just"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1906.021,"endTime":1907.071,"body":"because the fire exists."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1907.071,"endTime":1908.811,"body":"And it's so, so"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1907.071,"endTime":1908.811,"body":"powerful in there."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1909.261,"endTime":1912.836,"body":"And,  I don't think we take"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1909.261,"endTime":1912.836,"body":"this into account, you know,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1912.836,"endTime":1915.506,"body":"that that's such things w we'll"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1912.836,"endTime":1915.506,"body":"we'll have around the fire."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1915.626,"endTime":1918.206,"body":"You've also investigated"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1915.626,"endTime":1918.206,"body":"a lot about the throttling"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1918.246,"endTime":1923.225,"body":"effect of fires and how this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1918.246,"endTime":1923.225,"body":"influences the, the ventilation"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1923.225,"endTime":1924.155,"body":"system in the tunnel."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1924.631,"endTime":1926.938,"body":"well, that's a,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1924.631,"endTime":1926.938,"body":"that was an interesting project."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1926.968,"endTime":1929.818,"body":"There was a lot of discussion"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1926.968,"endTime":1929.818,"body":"about the fire trotting effect"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1929.998,"endTime":1934.055,"body":"in since well, I learned"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1929.998,"endTime":1934.055,"body":"about it in 2006, from a"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1934.055,"endTime":1935.735,"body":"paper from conference paper."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1936.253,"endTime":1942.44,"body":"And, in 20 17, 18, 19, I had"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1936.253,"endTime":1942.44,"body":"a research project funded by"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1942.44,"endTime":1947.51,"body":"the Swiss, road administration"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1942.44,"endTime":1947.51,"body":"to do a CFD analysis on this."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1947.646,"endTime":1951.686,"body":"and I had some very interesting"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1947.646,"endTime":1951.686,"body":"findings, which contradicted"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1951.926,"endTime":1954.236,"body":"a lot of the papers that"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1951.926,"endTime":1954.236,"body":"were published before."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1954.9,"endTime":1956.37,"body":"the report was well received."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1957.296,"endTime":1962.16,"body":"and, but still, to me, this is"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1957.296,"endTime":1962.16,"body":"a CFD study and I did the CFD,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1962.73,"endTime":1967.423,"body":"myself, so I'd like to mistrust"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1962.73,"endTime":1967.423,"body":"my own results and I would"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1967.423,"endTime":1971.22,"body":"really love, any confirmation"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1967.423,"endTime":1971.22,"body":"or any opposition against"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1971.22,"endTime":1972.75,"body":"those results provided by."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1973.525,"endTime":1977.911,"body":"Or if possible, even large-scale"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1973.525,"endTime":1977.911,"body":"fire test to validate the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1977.911,"endTime":1980.671,"body":"results because without,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1977.911,"endTime":1980.671,"body":"without large-scale fire"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1980.671,"endTime":1984.328,"body":"tests, the value of these"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1980.671,"endTime":1984.328,"body":"results is a bit limited."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1984.691,"endTime":1989.495,"body":"The current status is that"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1984.691,"endTime":1989.495,"body":"a PhD student has confirmed"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1989.915,"endTime":1992.975,"body":"via the fire throttling"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1989.915,"endTime":1992.975,"body":"effect as found in, in my"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1992.975,"endTime":1995.848,"body":"study in an independent"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1992.975,"endTime":1995.848,"body":"analysis, using different."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1996.531,"endTime":1998.511,"body":"But still, that's"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1996.531,"endTime":1998.511,"body":"just a verification."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":1998.511,"endTime":1999.591,"body":"That's not a validation."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2000.601,"endTime":2000.961,"body":"Mm."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2001.448,"endTime":2005.011,"body":"And, currently I'm"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2001.448,"endTime":2005.011,"body":"hoping for funds for a research"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2005.041,"endTime":2009.031,"body":"project where we can actually"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2005.041,"endTime":2009.031,"body":"measure the throttling effect"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2009.091,"endTime":2011.301,"body":"in this Spanish, test facility."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2011.805,"endTime":2015.738,"body":"But that's rather expensive"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2011.805,"endTime":2015.738,"body":"doing full, size fire tests."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2016.29,"endTime":2016.648,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2017.906,"endTime":2020.686,"body":"Uh, so this effect"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2017.906,"endTime":2020.686,"body":"how does it work?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2020.716,"endTime":2024.556,"body":"Like the fire is a resistance"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2020.716,"endTime":2024.556,"body":"to the flow, and you try to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2024.556,"endTime":2025.876,"body":"measure how big this resistance"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2026.186,"endTime":2027.746,"body":"there are"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2026.186,"endTime":2027.746,"body":"several effects going on."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2027.776,"endTime":2032.823,"body":"One effect is that the expansion"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2027.776,"endTime":2032.823,"body":"of the heated air in the fire,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2032.883,"endTime":2037.183,"body":"which causes a local press of"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2032.883,"endTime":2037.183,"body":"drop because of the acceleration"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2037.183,"endTime":2040.387,"body":"that's been newly more or"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2037.183,"endTime":2040.387,"body":"less or momentum balance."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2040.898,"endTime":2044.138,"body":"And then you have increased"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2040.898,"endTime":2044.138,"body":"friction downstream because"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2044.138,"endTime":2047.228,"body":"of the higher volume you"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2044.138,"endTime":2047.228,"body":"push through the tunnel."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2047.446,"endTime":2049.808,"body":"And there's another effect"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2047.446,"endTime":2049.808,"body":"downstream from the fire"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2049.808,"endTime":2052.371,"body":"when you have temperature"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2049.808,"endTime":2052.371,"body":"stratification and the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2052.371,"endTime":2055.191,"body":"flow profile resembles"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2052.371,"endTime":2055.191,"body":"the temperature profile."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2055.681,"endTime":2058.361,"body":"So it's not the fully"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2055.681,"endTime":2058.361,"body":"developed tube flow."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2058.361,"endTime":2059.855,"body":"You, you know, from the cold."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2059.865,"endTime":2059.955,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2060.615,"endTime":2063.675,"body":"And the, the resistance"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2060.615,"endTime":2063.675,"body":"along the tunnel of this,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2063.768,"endTime":2066.918,"body":"oddly shaped flow profile"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2063.768,"endTime":2066.918,"body":"is apparently higher than"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2066.918,"endTime":2068.155,"body":"the normal tunnel flow."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2068.669,"endTime":2070.075,"body":"And this is significant."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2070.328,"endTime":2071.881,"body":"this fire throttling effect."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2071.881,"endTime":2074.421,"body":"If this temperature"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2071.881,"endTime":2074.421,"body":"stratification remains"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2074.421,"endTime":2077.285,"body":"stable, that would be"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2074.421,"endTime":2077.285,"body":"relevant for ventilation."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2078.255,"endTime":2079.215,"body":"I've read your report."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2079.245,"endTime":2080.175,"body":"And I loved it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2080.205,"endTime":2086.658,"body":"And I immediately struck me"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2080.205,"endTime":2086.658,"body":"that again, in the   like when"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2086.658,"endTime":2089.645,"body":"we commissioned the tunnel"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2086.658,"endTime":2089.645,"body":"when we do hot smoke testing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2089.645,"endTime":2095.178,"body":"in it with, 2, 3, 5 megawatts"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2089.645,"endTime":2095.178,"body":"source in it, and we base our"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2095.178,"endTime":2098.448,"body":"opinion on the observations"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2095.178,"endTime":2098.448,"body":"in that moment of time."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2099.078,"endTime":2104.021,"body":"And you have, Investigated this,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2099.078,"endTime":2104.021,"body":"I assume, with the relation to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2104.021,"endTime":2110.561,"body":"the ventilation systems and how"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2104.021,"endTime":2110.561,"body":"it could impact the ventilation"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2110.561,"endTime":2111.701,"body":"system in a negative way."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2111.701,"endTime":2113.831,"body":"Like it's a high resistance"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2111.701,"endTime":2113.831,"body":"that you would have to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2114.041,"endTime":2115.668,"body":"push against for us."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2115.908,"endTime":2117.588,"body":"It was interesting opposite way."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2117.738,"endTime":2120.018,"body":"Like the wind effects"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2117.738,"endTime":2120.018,"body":"on, on the tunnel fire."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2120.23,"endTime":2125.186,"body":"If the wind is acting on the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2120.23,"endTime":2125.186,"body":"tunnel, let's say against us."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2125.606,"endTime":2129.136,"body":"And there is this increased"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2125.606,"endTime":2129.136,"body":"resistance that comes from"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2129.176,"endTime":2132.836,"body":"large fire being there, mainly"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2129.176,"endTime":2132.836,"body":"the thermal expansion and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2132.836,"endTime":2134.276,"body":"this heat pump that I talked."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2134.568,"endTime":2138.018,"body":"Briefly before then maybe"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2134.568,"endTime":2138.018,"body":"the wind effort would have"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2138.018,"endTime":2140.598,"body":"less severity because it"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2138.018,"endTime":2140.598,"body":"will also act against this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2140.898,"endTime":2144.648,"body":"local and throttle making the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2140.898,"endTime":2144.648,"body":"whole equation so complex,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2144.68,"endTime":2147.595,"body":"probably unsolvable because"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2144.68,"endTime":2147.595,"body":"suddenly you have so many"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2147.595,"endTime":2151.405,"body":"forces that act on each other"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2147.595,"endTime":2151.405,"body":"and influence each other."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2151.585,"endTime":2157.975,"body":"But the main point is we pace"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2151.585,"endTime":2157.975,"body":"our opinion on thing that is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2157.975,"endTime":2159.775,"body":"happening in this brief moment."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2159.775,"endTime":2162.105,"body":"When we do the hotsmoke test."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2162.41,"endTime":2165.13,"body":"Unfortunately not possible"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2162.41,"endTime":2165.13,"body":"with a hundred megawatts or"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2165.46,"endTime":2169.06,"body":"not really welcomed owners"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2165.46,"endTime":2169.06,"body":"have the talent to do that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2169.06,"endTime":2170.11,"body":"with a hundred megawatts."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2170.68,"endTime":2173.453,"body":"And, in a way, you know,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2170.68,"endTime":2173.453,"body":"understanding that in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2173.453,"endTime":2176.063,"body":"reality, it's going to be"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2173.453,"endTime":2176.063,"body":"different because there's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2176.273,"endTime":2178.433,"body":"going to be different forces"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2176.273,"endTime":2178.433,"body":"acting than we have now."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2179.508,"endTime":2180.498,"body":"the smoke test."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2180.528,"endTime":2182.247,"body":"They convey a level of safety."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2182.247,"endTime":2183.387,"body":"That's not really there."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2183.573,"endTime":2184.327,"body":"it's very good."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2184.327,"endTime":2185.317,"body":"For public opinion."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2185.317,"endTime":2186.727,"body":"You can have a nice movie."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2186.727,"endTime":2187.867,"body":"You ask you get the smoke."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2187.867,"endTime":2192.712,"body":"Stratification is also an"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2187.867,"endTime":2192.712,"body":"effect I don't think there"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2192.712,"endTime":2196.669,"body":"was too many real fires where"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2192.712,"endTime":2196.669,"body":"we had a stable smokes layer"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2197.376,"endTime":2199.896,"body":"because usually vehicles"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2197.376,"endTime":2199.896,"body":"are moving in the smoke."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2200.153,"endTime":2203.812,"body":"there's the fire brigades"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2200.153,"endTime":2203.812,"body":"are, is run rushing in and"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2203.962,"endTime":2206.572,"body":"every movement, like that"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2203.962,"endTime":2206.572,"body":"will disturb the smoke layer."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2206.932,"endTime":2209.422,"body":"It might not stop the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2206.932,"endTime":2209.422,"body":"temperature stratification,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2209.452,"endTime":2210.442,"body":"but the visibility."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2210.514,"endTime":2210.784,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2210.829,"endTime":2213.166,"body":"And, all these"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2210.829,"endTime":2213.166,"body":"fire tests show very stable"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2213.166,"endTime":2216.726,"body":"smoke stratification So it's,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2213.166,"endTime":2216.726,"body":"it's again, it's the test"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2216.786,"endTime":2220.339,"body":"and what you see there is"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2216.786,"endTime":2220.339,"body":"it conveys a level of safety"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2220.339,"endTime":2221.554,"body":"that might not be there."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2221.877,"endTime":2223.407,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2221.877,"endTime":2223.407,"body":"my experience is that the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2223.407,"endTime":2225.867,"body":"bigger the fire, the better"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2223.407,"endTime":2225.867,"body":"the stratification though."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2226.197,"endTime":2226.677,"body":"And,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2226.707,"endTime":2226.797,"body":"uh,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2227.722,"endTime":2228.292,"body":"Froude number."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2228.292,"endTime":2231.922,"body":"Yeah, the stronger, the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2228.292,"endTime":2231.922,"body":"temperature stratification, the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2231.922,"endTime":2234.546,"body":"strong number, the better the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2231.922,"endTime":2234.546,"body":"stability of the smoke layers."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2235.391,"endTime":2237.641,"body":"but in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2235.391,"endTime":2237.641,"body":"reality, I also think that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2237.693,"endTime":2240.631,"body":"in the hot smoke test, when"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2237.693,"endTime":2240.631,"body":"you immediately set on fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2240.631,"endTime":2244.794,"body":"five megawatts pans of diesel"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2240.631,"endTime":2244.794,"body":"and, gasoline, like people"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2244.794,"endTime":2245.964,"body":"did that Austrian style."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2246.024,"endTime":2246.894,"body":"I love that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2247.331,"endTime":2249.926,"body":"I there's also an unrealistic"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2247.331,"endTime":2249.926,"body":"representation of the growth"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2249.926,"endTime":2252.236,"body":"of the fire, which, which"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2249.926,"endTime":2252.236,"body":"will be growing, which will"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2252.236,"endTime":2257.336,"body":"be, uh, hopefully slower in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2252.236,"endTime":2257.336,"body":"a way, and may not have this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2257.346,"endTime":2260.366,"body":"buoyancy or will be spread"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2257.346,"endTime":2260.366,"body":"out, at the larger fire source."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2260.786,"endTime":2263.576,"body":"Not necessarily a point"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2260.786,"endTime":2263.576,"body":"source, like, like a panel"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2263.576,"endTime":2264.716,"body":"would be a point source."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2264.964,"endTime":2266.794,"body":"and there's"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2264.964,"endTime":2266.794,"body":"also the traffic behavior."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2267.117,"endTime":2269.937,"body":"there, there were so many,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2267.117,"endTime":2269.937,"body":"especially in tunnels that"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2269.937,"endTime":2271.257,"body":"got an emergency breakdown."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2271.922,"endTime":2273.272,"body":"We don't have that"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2271.922,"endTime":2273.272,"body":"in Switzerland."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2273.512,"endTime":2276.212,"body":"Most tunnels don't have"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2273.512,"endTime":2276.212,"body":"that, but if you have that,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2276.245,"endTime":2279.932,"body":"the likelihood that a fire"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2276.245,"endTime":2279.932,"body":"occurs on that breakdown lane"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2280.382,"endTime":2283.282,"body":"is probably the highest in"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2280.382,"endTime":2283.282,"body":"the tunnel cross section,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2283.312,"endTime":2287.752,"body":"which leaves two lanes of"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2283.312,"endTime":2287.752,"body":"traffic free for the vehicles."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2287.812,"endTime":2291.352,"body":"So maybe the vehicles will not"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2287.812,"endTime":2291.352,"body":"stop in front of the fire as we"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2291.352,"endTime":2295.402,"body":"assume in our safety analysis,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2291.352,"endTime":2295.402,"body":"but they will continue to go"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2295.402,"endTime":2298.192,"body":"through, they will see close"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2295.402,"endTime":2298.192,"body":"to nothing, but still what"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2298.192,"endTime":2299.282,"body":"they will continue to put."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2300.209,"endTime":2302.599,"body":"That's how people act."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2303.192,"endTime":2305.412,"body":"and, at"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2303.192,"endTime":2305.412,"body":"the phone for the end we've"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2305.412,"endTime":2309.072,"body":"discussed so many interesting"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2305.412,"endTime":2309.072,"body":"aspects of the tunnel, fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2309.072,"endTime":2310.722,"body":"safety and ventilation, and."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2311.176,"endTime":2315.316,"body":"How much research you see"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2311.176,"endTime":2315.316,"body":"about this particular aspects?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2315.346,"endTime":2318.316,"body":"Because, and I mean, in, in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2315.346,"endTime":2318.316,"body":"like peer reviewed papers,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2318.316,"endTime":2321.546,"body":"because I see very little,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2318.316,"endTime":2321.546,"body":"the only places where I really"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2321.546,"endTime":2325.919,"body":"see this research, as a great"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2321.546,"endTime":2325.919,"body":"source of knowledge is you've"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2325.919,"endTime":2328.919,"body":"mentioned Graz conference"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2325.919,"endTime":2328.919,"body":"and that's a place where."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2329.924,"endTime":2330.884,"body":"You can learn a lot."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2331.334,"endTime":2334.934,"body":"There's a PIARC conferences,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2331.334,"endTime":2334.934,"body":"but in peer reviewed research,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2334.964,"endTime":2336.374,"body":"I have this odd feeling."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2336.374,"endTime":2339.774,"body":"It's all about critical"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2336.374,"endTime":2339.774,"body":"velocities and backlayering,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2339.794,"endTime":2344.694,"body":"scale models of tunnels I'm"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2339.794,"endTime":2344.694,"body":"really let down by, by the fact"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2344.694,"endTime":2349.704,"body":"how disconnected or disjoint"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2344.694,"endTime":2349.704,"body":"from the engineering that is."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2350.111,"endTime":2350.501,"body":"yes."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2350.561,"endTime":2353.351,"body":"I mean the, the engineers don't"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2350.561,"endTime":2353.351,"body":"read peer reviewed papers."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2354.28,"endTime":2355.53,"body":"They are too expensive."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2355.56,"endTime":2357.72,"body":"And usually you don't"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2355.56,"endTime":2357.72,"body":"come across them."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2358.118,"endTime":2361.803,"body":"Most engineers are not directly"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2358.118,"endTime":2361.803,"body":"connected to a university, so"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2361.803,"endTime":2364.593,"body":"they don't, they simply don't"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2361.803,"endTime":2364.593,"body":"have access to these papers."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2365.056,"endTime":2367.756,"body":"The only thing they have"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2365.056,"endTime":2367.756,"body":"access to is conferences where"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2367.756,"endTime":2372.373,"body":"the community meets and, the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2367.756,"endTime":2372.373,"body":"same, the research for these"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2372.373,"endTime":2375.616,"body":"project is done by engineering"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2372.373,"endTime":2375.616,"body":"companies and not at universal."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2376.501,"endTime":2378.595,"body":"So there's research"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2376.501,"endTime":2378.595,"body":"done in Germany."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2378.595,"endTime":2381.145,"body":"It's funded by BAST"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2378.595,"endTime":2381.145,"body":"in Switzerland."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2381.145,"endTime":2383.671,"body":"It's funded by"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2381.145,"endTime":2383.671,"body":"ASTRA, in Austria."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2383.671,"endTime":2385.981,"body":"And they've got their"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2383.671,"endTime":2385.981,"body":"research program."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2386.131,"endTime":2388.141,"body":"It's done by"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2386.131,"endTime":2388.141,"body":"engineering companies."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2388.411,"endTime":2390.515,"body":"And in the past couple of"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2388.411,"endTime":2390.515,"body":"years, there has been some"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2390.515,"endTime":2394.471,"body":"work done on human behavior"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2390.515,"endTime":2394.471,"body":"with a sprinkler systems."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2394.501,"endTime":2395.828,"body":"And what do people actually do?"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2396.76,"endTime":2400.0,"body":"And we've got due to"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2396.76,"endTime":2400.0,"body":"the European directive"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2400.03,"endTime":2405.04,"body":"we've got by now consider"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2400.03,"endTime":2405.04,"body":"data from real events."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2405.47,"endTime":2407.84,"body":"This was another change"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2405.47,"endTime":2407.84,"body":"in the last 20 years."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2407.996,"endTime":2410.306,"body":"Now we really know"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2407.996,"endTime":2410.306,"body":"we get the report."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2410.336,"endTime":2412.906,"body":"We see what happened,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2410.336,"endTime":2412.906,"body":"how people behaved,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2413.276,"endTime":2414.656,"body":"We also"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2413.276,"endTime":2414.656,"body":"get the measurements and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2414.656,"endTime":2415.586,"body":"that's, that's something"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2415.716,"endTime":2417.276,"body":"and we've got"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2415.716,"endTime":2417.276,"body":"more equipment in the tunnel"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2417.276,"endTime":2418.236,"body":"that gives us more date day."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2418.817,"endTime":2421.183,"body":"But"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2418.817,"endTime":2421.183,"body":"I still, I would put the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2421.183,"endTime":2422.323,"body":"case in the reverse order."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2422.353,"endTime":2424.917,"body":"The scientists are also"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2422.353,"endTime":2424.917,"body":"the engineers and they are."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2424.95,"endTime":2428.13,"body":"Rarely have practical"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2424.95,"endTime":2428.13,"body":"experience designing or solving"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2428.16,"endTime":2431.373,"body":"technical issues in tunnels"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2428.16,"endTime":2431.373,"body":"and, there's a level of."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2431.401,"endTime":2434.418,"body":"Problems that you only"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2431.401,"endTime":2434.418,"body":"learn when you face them."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2434.418,"endTime":2438.551,"body":"And when you match them on, on"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2434.418,"endTime":2438.551,"body":"a real project and that are not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2438.551,"endTime":2442.701,"body":"evident in a small-scale tunnel"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2438.551,"endTime":2442.701,"body":"in your laboratory, and you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2442.701,"endTime":2446.901,"body":"can run into this loophole off"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2442.701,"endTime":2446.901,"body":"of critical velocity or back"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2446.901,"endTime":2450.261,"body":"layer in distance, which is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2446.901,"endTime":2450.261,"body":"very interesting to research."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2450.308,"endTime":2453.021,"body":"I would say it's, fairly"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2450.308,"endTime":2453.021,"body":"easy to research in, your"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2453.021,"endTime":2455.631,"body":"scale models because they"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2453.021,"endTime":2455.631,"body":"are very convenient for that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2455.661,"endTime":2455.841,"body":"But."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2456.215,"endTime":2458.885,"body":"You've already said you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2456.215,"endTime":2458.885,"body":"don't use critical velocity."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2458.885,"endTime":2460.115,"body":"And that does not either."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2460.505,"endTime":2463.775,"body":"I do not really care that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2460.505,"endTime":2463.775,"body":"much about that concept."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2464.015,"endTime":2465.895,"body":"well, I think"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2464.015,"endTime":2465.895,"body":"the critical velocity"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2465.945,"endTime":2467.535,"body":"is a design requirement."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2467.855,"endTime":2470.755,"body":"It defines the capacity"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2467.855,"endTime":2470.755,"body":"of the system and."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2471.138,"endTime":2473.028,"body":"I like the Swiss"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2471.138,"endTime":2473.028,"body":"approach to this."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2473.028,"endTime":2476.418,"body":"They, the Swiss design code for"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2473.028,"endTime":2476.418,"body":"old tunnel ventilation just says"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2476.418,"endTime":2478.098,"body":"we want three meter per second."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2478.355,"endTime":2481.325,"body":"They don't, they don't talk"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2478.355,"endTime":2481.325,"body":"about critical velocity at all."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2481.485,"endTime":2483.475,"body":"We want three meters per"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2481.485,"endTime":2483.475,"body":"second, and I think that's"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2483.475,"endTime":2485.065,"body":"a very sound approach."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2485.191,"endTime":2486.865,"body":"and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2485.191,"endTime":2486.865,"body":"so much easier then the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2486.865,"endTime":2489.77,"body":"page long equation to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2486.865,"endTime":2489.77,"body":"solve for the fourth,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2489.785,"endTime":2490.998,"body":"significant digits in the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2491.333,"endTime":2494.633,"body":"And with every new"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2491.333,"endTime":2494.633,"body":"edition of NFPA it changes."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2495.788,"endTime":2496.028,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2496.028,"endTime":2498.968,"body":"So there we've seen the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2496.028,"endTime":2498.968,"body":"papers that, that actually,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2499.208,"endTime":2500.228,"body":"and I'm happy with that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2500.328,"endTime":2503.728,"body":"They started questioning the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2500.328,"endTime":2503.728,"body":"new values that there are the,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2503.728,"endTime":2508.268,"body":"they started to be unreasonably"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2503.728,"endTime":2508.268,"body":"high, like unrealistically"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2508.268,"endTime":2512.421,"body":"high end, without really"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2508.268,"endTime":2512.421,"body":"sound proof of why we need"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2512.451,"endTime":2514.731,"body":"as high numbers, because"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2512.451,"endTime":2514.731,"body":"they translate into costs."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2515.486,"endTime":2520.013,"body":"Operational costs, construction"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2515.486,"endTime":2520.013,"body":"costs and, and, they just"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2520.013,"endTime":2523.163,"body":"make it more difficult to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2520.013,"endTime":2523.163,"body":"design the system, which"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2523.163,"endTime":2525.293,"body":"probably has worked even"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2523.163,"endTime":2525.293,"body":"with the previous versions."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2525.348,"endTime":2526.968,"body":"and this may"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2525.348,"endTime":2526.968,"body":"be an another program."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2526.968,"endTime":2530.628,"body":"Why we, we don't research"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2526.968,"endTime":2530.628,"body":"these things enough."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2530.771,"endTime":2533.591,"body":"there are two, we've got"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2530.771,"endTime":2533.591,"body":"these design codes in Europe."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2534.556,"endTime":2535.936,"body":"Which are pretty well fixed."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2536.536,"endTime":2539.713,"body":"And, there are too many"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2536.536,"endTime":2539.713,"body":"energy engineering companies,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2539.755,"endTime":2542.753,"body":"where people think we"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2539.755,"endTime":2542.753,"body":"already know everything."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2543.313,"endTime":2545.083,"body":"So they don't do"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2543.313,"endTime":2545.083,"body":"research anymore."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2545.69,"endTime":2548.0,"body":"if you get, go to the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2545.69,"endTime":2548.0,"body":"conferences and you see"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2548.0,"endTime":2550.64,"body":"the work that's presented,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2548.0,"endTime":2550.64,"body":"there it's so much today."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2550.91,"endTime":2553.853,"body":"There's so much more"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2550.91,"endTime":2553.853,"body":"about projects we did and"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2553.853,"endTime":2555.643,"body":"then no longer questions."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2556.516,"endTime":2560.313,"body":"And, it goes more into marketing"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2556.516,"endTime":2560.313,"body":"and less into research, which is"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2560.313,"endTime":2563.343,"body":"a pity, because I think there's"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2560.313,"endTime":2563.343,"body":"still a lot of work to do."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2563.943,"endTime":2564.453,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2564.483,"endTime":2565.357,"body":"Thank you for that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2565.366,"endTime":2567.37,"body":"I'm happy to finally"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2565.366,"endTime":2567.37,"body":"have an engineer in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2567.37,"endTime":2570.46,"body":"podcast and well, you're,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2567.37,"endTime":2570.46,"body":"you're a scientist to me."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2571.57,"endTime":2574.303,"body":"And, was a great pleasure"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2571.57,"endTime":2574.303,"body":"to discuss with you the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2574.303,"endTime":2577.263,"body":"challenges of resiliency"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2574.303,"endTime":2577.263,"body":"of safety in tunnels, and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2577.263,"endTime":2578.663,"body":"then eventually ventilation."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2579.433,"endTime":2582.63,"body":"I think a beneficial thing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2579.433,"endTime":2582.63,"body":"would be to advertise a bit."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2582.63,"endTime":2586.15,"body":"this conferences are the places"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2582.63,"endTime":2586.15,"body":"where the engineering mixes"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2586.15,"endTime":2590.953,"body":"with research and for me,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2586.15,"endTime":2590.953,"body":"such places is Tunnel Safety"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2590.953,"endTime":2592.373,"body":"Ventilation Conference in Graz."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2592.393,"endTime":2594.41,"body":"And I hope to be"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2592.393,"endTime":2594.41,"body":"there this, this year."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2594.41,"endTime":2598.683,"body":"It's, um, it's in may my ninth"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2594.41,"endTime":2598.683,"body":"to 10th, in GRAZ in Austria."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2598.773,"endTime":2601.266,"body":"And, I'll link to that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2598.773,"endTime":2601.266,"body":"conference in the bottom."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2601.266,"endTime":2603.066,"body":"You have your favorite"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2601.266,"endTime":2603.066,"body":"conference outside of."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2603.546,"endTime":2605.885,"body":"well, actually"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2603.546,"endTime":2605.885,"body":"in the, in the past couple of"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2605.885,"endTime":2610.1,"body":"years, I only went to Graz there"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2605.885,"endTime":2610.1,"body":"is The HR conferences, British"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2610.1,"endTime":2614.15,"body":"hydraulic research Institute,"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2610.1,"endTime":2614.15,"body":"which I left 20 years ago."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2614.463,"endTime":2616.383,"body":"but I didn't have the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2614.463,"endTime":2616.383,"body":"opportunity to go."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2616.413,"endTime":2620.656,"body":"They were very innovative and"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2616.413,"endTime":2620.656,"body":"very technical, the ones on"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2620.776,"endTime":2622.246,"body":"ton of fire and ventilation."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2622.74,"endTime":2626.02,"body":"but I don't know how they"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2622.74,"endTime":2626.02,"body":"develop the past 10 to 15 years."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2626.169,"endTime":2627.891,"body":"there's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2626.169,"endTime":2627.891,"body":"also PIARC conference in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2627.891,"endTime":2630.141,"body":"Granada that's happening"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2627.891,"endTime":2630.141,"body":"in October, I think."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2630.141,"endTime":2631.961,"body":"And I hope to be there"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2632.031,"endTime":2633.861,"body":"Yeah, the"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2632.031,"endTime":2633.861,"body":"PIARC conferences, they"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2633.861,"endTime":2637.961,"body":"are more strategic and"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2633.861,"endTime":2637.961,"body":"a state of the art."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2637.991,"endTime":2639.161,"body":"They are less scientific."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2639.321,"endTime":2641.208,"body":"it's a different they're"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2639.321,"endTime":2641.208,"body":"different topics."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2641.208,"endTime":2641.298,"body":"This."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2641.64,"endTime":2642.96,"body":"And I"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2641.64,"endTime":2642.96,"body":"would also like to highlight"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2642.96,"endTime":2646.383,"body":"that, the materials from the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2642.96,"endTime":2646.383,"body":"technical conferences in Graz"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2646.403,"endTime":2648.773,"body":"are available online usually."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2648.773,"endTime":2651.353,"body":"And you, you can find"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2648.773,"endTime":2651.353,"body":"them, I just see your"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2651.353,"endTime":2653.003,"body":"paper on trotting ethics."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2653.003,"endTime":2653.933,"body":"So it's there."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2654.453,"endTime":2657.713,"body":"That's great that this is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2654.453,"endTime":2657.713,"body":"being shared outside of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2657.713,"endTime":2659.543,"body":"the conference to be used."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2659.993,"endTime":2664.523,"body":"So I'll link to this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2659.993,"endTime":2664.523,"body":"resources and also rulings."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2665.021,"endTime":2666.521,"body":"Research that, that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2665.021,"endTime":2666.521,"body":"you have been doing."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2666.966,"endTime":2670.065,"body":"Ingo thank you very much for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2666.966,"endTime":2670.065,"body":"coming here and being a part"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2670.065,"endTime":2674.051,"body":"of the podcast was a, it was"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2670.065,"endTime":2674.051,"body":"a huge pleasure to have you in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2674.051,"endTime":2677.691,"body":"here and, see you soon on some"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2674.051,"endTime":2677.691,"body":"tunneling project in Europe."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2678.04,"endTime":2679.21,"body":"thank"},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2678.04,"endTime":2679.21,"body":"you for having me."},{"speaker":"Ingo Riess","startTime":2679.3,"endTime":2680.65,"body":"I hope to meet you in God's."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2681.243,"endTime":2682.281,"body":"Looking forward to that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2682.311,"endTime":2682.881,"body":"See you soon."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2683.892,"endTime":2684.582,"body":"And that's it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2684.665,"endTime":2686.159,"body":"What a great talk with Ingo."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2686.159,"endTime":2687.689,"body":"I'm really happy to."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2687.705,"endTime":2690.335,"body":"Having discussed with him,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2687.705,"endTime":2690.335,"body":"especially the risk aspects"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2690.379,"endTime":2694.579,"body":"And he know this whole concept"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2690.379,"endTime":2694.579,"body":"of resiliency and how we could"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2694.579,"endTime":2695.989,"body":"actually build the third."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2696.619,"endTime":2700.849,"body":"Tunnel nodes just to have the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2696.619,"endTime":2700.849,"body":"tunnel operational for, for the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2700.879,"endTime":2703.605,"body":"time of refurbishment that's,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2700.879,"endTime":2703.605,"body":"that's is something very new"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2703.605,"endTime":2705.615,"body":"for me and very intriguing."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2705.615,"endTime":2707.475,"body":"And it makes a lot of sense."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2707.475,"endTime":2709.725,"body":"When you think about"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2707.475,"endTime":2709.725,"body":"the economical impact"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2709.725,"endTime":2710.955,"body":"that tunnels have in."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2712.89,"endTime":2715.35,"body":"here that he doesn't"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2712.89,"endTime":2715.35,"body":"like to do CFD."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2715.817,"endTime":2717.702,"body":"it doesn't feel secure about it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2717.732,"endTime":2718.872,"body":"Please don't trust him."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2719.082,"endTime":2723.502,"body":"He literally writes his own one"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2719.082,"endTime":2723.502,"body":"dimensional coats for tunnel"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2723.522,"endTime":2724.782,"body":"ventilation and everything."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2724.782,"endTime":2725.592,"body":"So I am."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2725.982,"endTime":2728.952,"body":"Way more confident in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2725.982,"endTime":2728.952,"body":"his capabilities then."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2729.012,"endTime":2729.732,"body":"He is."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2730.092,"endTime":2732.972,"body":"And I've read his report"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2730.092,"endTime":2732.972,"body":"on throttling ethics, which"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2732.972,"endTime":2736.362,"body":"is linked in the show notes"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2732.972,"endTime":2736.362,"body":"and it is purely excellent."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2736.386,"endTime":2738.028,"body":"One of the best"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2736.386,"endTime":2738.028,"body":"pieces I've read."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2738.028,"endTime":2738.742,"body":"In a long time."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2739.342,"endTime":2743.049,"body":"Uh, so for the end, I think"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2739.342,"endTime":2743.049,"body":"the resources are there."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2743.049,"endTime":2744.799,"body":"You should follow"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2743.049,"endTime":2744.799,"body":"Ingo and researchgate."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2744.819,"endTime":2746.139,"body":"He posts all his reports."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2746.139,"endTime":2748.929,"body":"That's actually the best"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2746.139,"endTime":2748.929,"body":"place to go, I assume."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2749.419,"endTime":2752.659,"body":"we also advertise hard"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2749.419,"endTime":2752.659,"body":"the Graz conference,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2752.839,"endTime":2754.099,"body":"because it is really good."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2754.489,"endTime":2756.139,"body":"It's a really great"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2754.489,"endTime":2756.139,"body":"conference for everyone."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2756.309,"endTime":2757.599,"body":"Dealing with tunnels."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2758.179,"endTime":2759.559,"body":"it's full of great"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2758.179,"endTime":2759.559,"body":"people, full of grades."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2759.559,"endTime":2762.019,"body":"Research is a great place"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2759.559,"endTime":2762.019,"body":"to be if you're engineering"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2762.019,"endTime":2763.819,"body":"funnels and I hope to be there."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2763.999,"endTime":2765.019,"body":"And I hope to see you there."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2765.859,"endTime":2767.719,"body":"And that's it for the episode."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2767.839,"endTime":2769.069,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2769.129,"endTime":2772.298,"body":"And cross fingers for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2769.129,"endTime":2772.298,"body":"Ukraine and the safety of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2772.298,"endTime":2773.678,"body":"Ukrainian people, please."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2774.308,"endTime":2777.098,"body":"And let's stop the madmen"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2774.308,"endTime":2777.098,"body":"from blowing up the world."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2777.818,"endTime":2780.368,"body":"Thank you and, uh, see"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2777.818,"endTime":2780.368,"body":"you here next week."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2780.428,"endTime":2780.878,"body":"Cheers."}]}