{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.758,"endTime":1.418,"body":"Hello, everybody."},{"startTime":1.418,"endTime":3.788,"body":"Welcome to the Fire"},{"startTime":1.418,"endTime":3.788,"body":"Science Show session 44."},{"startTime":4.238,"endTime":5.528,"body":"The legend after legend."},{"startTime":5.558,"endTime":8.948,"body":"I'm pretty blessed with the"},{"startTime":5.558,"endTime":8.948,"body":"guests in lineup, in the"},{"startTime":8.948,"endTime":10.598,"body":"podcast in the last weeks."},{"startTime":11.108,"endTime":13.431,"body":"And it's not a other today."},{"startTime":13.578,"endTime":16.718,"body":"Enough to say that my today's"},{"startTime":13.578,"endTime":16.718,"body":"guests along with, , Professor"},{"startTime":16.718,"endTime":20.747,"body":"Babrauskas  and Professor Horn"},{"startTime":16.718,"endTime":20.747,"body":"alltogether they've published"},{"startTime":20.768,"endTime":21.998,"body":"."},{"startTime":20.768,"endTime":21.998,"body":"almost 500."},{"startTime":22.161,"endTime":23.061,"body":"Academic papers."},{"startTime":23.091,"endTime":25.581,"body":"And I find that"},{"startTime":23.091,"endTime":25.581,"body":"insane as an academic."},{"startTime":26.192,"endTime":29.102,"body":"Anyway, let's go with"},{"startTime":26.192,"endTime":29.102,"body":"the big reveal quickly."},{"startTime":29.346,"endTime":33.826,"body":"My today's guest is professor"},{"startTime":29.346,"endTime":33.826,"body":"Ofodike Ezekoye From the"},{"startTime":34.126,"endTime":35.986,"body":"University of Texas at Austin."},{"startTime":36.406,"endTime":40.516,"body":"And DK is an expert in"},{"startTime":36.406,"endTime":40.516,"body":"battery fire safety."},{"startTime":40.996,"endTime":44.026,"body":"And I cannot imagine a better"},{"startTime":40.996,"endTime":44.026,"body":"place working on the fire safety"},{"startTime":44.026,"endTime":45.496,"body":"of lithium-ion batteries than."},{"startTime":45.716,"endTime":49.246,"body":"And university of Texas Austin"},{"startTime":45.716,"endTime":49.246,"body":"where the thing actually"},{"startTime":49.646,"endTime":53.236,"body":"got kind of invented where"},{"startTime":49.646,"endTime":53.236,"body":"professor John Goodenough"},{"startTime":53.906,"endTime":57.169,"body":"Is lecturing and, yeah, he"},{"startTime":53.906,"endTime":57.169,"body":"actually got the Nobel prize for"},{"startTime":57.259,"endTime":60.109,"body":"inventing this type of battery."},{"startTime":60.649,"endTime":61.069,"body":"So."},{"startTime":61.372,"endTime":64.732,"body":"Great place to study battery,"},{"startTime":61.372,"endTime":64.732,"body":"fire safety and the great"},{"startTime":64.732,"endTime":66.432,"body":"research and going in there."},{"startTime":66.877,"endTime":71.107,"body":"I went into this interview with"},{"startTime":66.877,"endTime":71.107,"body":"some tough questions about the"},{"startTime":71.107,"endTime":74.587,"body":"safety of battery, his thermal"},{"startTime":71.107,"endTime":74.587,"body":"runaways and things like that."},{"startTime":75.127,"endTime":78.062,"body":"But in fact, it ended"},{"startTime":75.127,"endTime":78.062,"body":"up as quite reassuring"},{"startTime":78.122,"endTime":79.622,"body":"talk with a good friend."},{"startTime":80.162,"endTime":85.902,"body":"About what's there to find out"},{"startTime":80.162,"endTime":85.902,"body":"how complexity strikes at this."},{"startTime":85.932,"endTime":86.382,"body":"Again."},{"startTime":86.712,"endTime":89.202,"body":"And how smart people"},{"startTime":86.712,"endTime":89.202,"body":"are battling for the"},{"startTime":89.232,"endTime":90.432,"body":"safety of batteries."},{"startTime":90.982,"endTime":92.272,"body":"I think we've ended up with."},{"startTime":92.498,"endTime":93.539,"body":"Quite well-rounded."},{"startTime":93.779,"endTime":95.549,"body":"Discussion covering."},{"startTime":95.939,"endTime":98.519,"body":"Many many aspects of"},{"startTime":95.939,"endTime":98.519,"body":"the battery fire safety."},{"startTime":98.519,"endTime":101.939,"body":"And I can tell you I'm"},{"startTime":98.519,"endTime":101.939,"body":"I'm reassured I am a"},{"startTime":101.939,"endTime":103.559,"body":"little less scared now."},{"startTime":104.009,"endTime":106.139,"body":"And more optimists."},{"startTime":106.649,"endTime":109.832,"body":"Towards a new solutions"},{"startTime":106.649,"endTime":109.832,"body":"that will come for the"},{"startTime":109.832,"endTime":110.912,"body":"safety of this technology."},{"startTime":111.149,"endTime":111.989,"body":"And yeah,"},{"startTime":112.229,"endTime":115.289,"body":"knowing that the batteries are"},{"startTime":112.229,"endTime":115.289,"body":"as a hot topic for the podcast"},{"startTime":115.289,"endTime":118.589,"body":"as the wood in fire . I'm"},{"startTime":115.289,"endTime":118.589,"body":"absolutely certain, I don't"},{"startTime":118.589,"endTime":122.012,"body":"need to hype this anymore"},{"startTime":118.589,"endTime":122.012,"body":"and that I already go to"},{"startTime":122.012,"endTime":123.512,"body":"your attention and trust me."},{"startTime":124.142,"endTime":128.192,"body":"If you enjoy listening"},{"startTime":124.142,"endTime":128.192,"body":"scientists who are absolutely"},{"startTime":128.312,"endTime":131.479,"body":"passionate about what"},{"startTime":128.312,"endTime":131.479,"body":"they're doing they're happy"},{"startTime":131.569,"endTime":135.409,"body":"and enthusiastic about the"},{"startTime":131.569,"endTime":135.409,"body":"research and about sharing"},{"startTime":135.409,"endTime":136.489,"body":"it with everyone else."},{"startTime":136.999,"endTime":138.709,"body":"This is an episode for you."},{"startTime":138.769,"endTime":140.299,"body":"So I really hope you enjoy."},{"startTime":140.929,"endTime":142.429,"body":"So let's not prolong"},{"startTime":140.929,"endTime":142.429,"body":"this anymore."},{"startTime":142.489,"endTime":144.709,"body":"Let's spend in show and"},{"startTime":142.489,"endTime":144.709,"body":"jump into the episode."},{"startTime":168.639,"endTime":169.389,"body":"Hello everybody."},{"startTime":169.399,"endTime":172.389,"body":"I'm here today with"},{"startTime":169.399,"endTime":172.389,"body":"Professor DK Ezekoye."},{"startTime":172.389,"endTime":173.169,"body":"Hello, DK."},{"startTime":173.229,"endTime":174.819,"body":"Great to have you in the show."},{"startTime":175.066,"endTime":175.541,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":176.309,"endTime":176.949,"body":"Welcome."},{"startTime":176.999,"endTime":177.989,"body":"Looking forward to it."},{"startTime":178.341,"endTime":181.886,"body":"I'm even more before the show,"},{"startTime":178.341,"endTime":181.886,"body":"you told me that, for the cold"},{"startTime":181.904,"endTime":185.881,"body":"chilly Texas, winters, you were"},{"startTime":181.904,"endTime":185.881,"body":"thinking about building up some"},{"startTime":185.911,"endTime":187.801,"body":"PV installation and batteries."},{"startTime":187.861,"endTime":189.121,"body":"Aren't you scared of that?"},{"startTime":191.201,"endTime":192.371,"body":"Absolutely not."},{"startTime":192.627,"endTime":196.764,"body":"I am an advocate of this type of"},{"startTime":192.627,"endTime":196.764,"body":"technology of, electrification"},{"startTime":196.764,"endTime":200.201,"body":"generally, and certainly in"},{"startTime":196.764,"endTime":200.201,"body":"terms of, battery systems."},{"startTime":200.561,"endTime":205.564,"body":"And so, last year, February,"},{"startTime":200.561,"endTime":205.564,"body":"uh, we had a winter event here"},{"startTime":205.564,"endTime":209.877,"body":"in Austin, which took out our"},{"startTime":205.564,"endTime":209.877,"body":"electricity and, took out quite"},{"startTime":209.877,"endTime":213.301,"body":"a bit of, infrastructure issues"},{"startTime":209.877,"endTime":213.301,"body":"in, in terms of utilities."},{"startTime":213.651,"endTime":217.821,"body":"Even before then, I was very"},{"startTime":213.651,"endTime":217.821,"body":"much planning on getting a"},{"startTime":217.821,"endTime":221.374,"body":"photo-voltaic, panels and"},{"startTime":217.821,"endTime":221.374,"body":"also battery energy storage."},{"startTime":221.674,"endTime":225.304,"body":"And so that obviously just"},{"startTime":221.674,"endTime":225.304,"body":"in my mind, it's solidified"},{"startTime":225.304,"endTime":226.654,"body":"the need to do this."},{"startTime":226.654,"endTime":230.744,"body":"And for all of us to, in"},{"startTime":226.654,"endTime":230.744,"body":"some sense,  capability on"},{"startTime":230.744,"endTime":234.464,"body":"hand for a renewable energy"},{"startTime":230.744,"endTime":234.464,"body":"generation and storage."},{"startTime":234.644,"endTime":236.684,"body":"So I'm very much"},{"startTime":234.644,"endTime":236.684,"body":"looking forward to it."},{"startTime":236.931,"endTime":241.871,"body":"And as I said earlier, , my"},{"startTime":236.931,"endTime":241.871,"body":"reasons to do what I do are"},{"startTime":241.871,"endTime":244.511,"body":"to improve the overall safety"},{"startTime":241.871,"endTime":244.511,"body":"of these types of systems."},{"startTime":244.511,"endTime":247.031,"body":"So it's not, , an"},{"startTime":244.511,"endTime":247.031,"body":"indictment of the systems."},{"startTime":247.031,"endTime":249.271,"body":"It's not say that the"},{"startTime":247.031,"endTime":249.271,"body":"systems themselves are,"},{"startTime":249.322,"endTime":251.481,"body":"somehow intrinsically unsafe."},{"startTime":251.761,"endTime":254.141,"body":"It's just that, we need"},{"startTime":251.761,"endTime":254.141,"body":"to improve the overall"},{"startTime":254.141,"endTime":255.131,"body":"safety of these systems."},{"startTime":255.131,"endTime":257.051,"body":"So more of us can"},{"startTime":255.131,"endTime":257.051,"body":"comfortably use them."},{"startTime":257.416,"endTime":260.303,"body":"that sounds like not a bad"},{"startTime":257.416,"endTime":260.303,"body":"task you've set for yourself."},{"startTime":260.942,"endTime":264.482,"body":"I find the word safety quite"},{"startTime":260.942,"endTime":264.482,"body":"a difficult in this matter,"},{"startTime":264.482,"endTime":268.216,"body":"you know, because, I look into"},{"startTime":264.482,"endTime":268.216,"body":"Internet, the net people are"},{"startTime":268.456,"endTime":270.076,"body":"terrified of the technology."},{"startTime":270.076,"endTime":274.666,"body":"Like literally terrified to the"},{"startTime":270.076,"endTime":274.666,"body":"level, uh, where we're banning"},{"startTime":274.666,"endTime":278.656,"body":"in many countries, electrical"},{"startTime":274.666,"endTime":278.656,"body":"vehicles in the car parks,"},{"startTime":279.099,"endTime":283.109,"body":"and, in Poland we had a nice"},{"startTime":279.099,"endTime":283.109,"body":"movement where they formated."},{"startTime":283.857,"endTime":289.432,"body":"Mandatory to provide, sufficient"},{"startTime":283.857,"endTime":289.432,"body":"electrical power to power, at"},{"startTime":289.432,"endTime":293.461,"body":"least a plug-in hybrid,  every"},{"startTime":289.432,"endTime":293.461,"body":"parking spot in your car park,"},{"startTime":293.822,"endTime":295.699,"body":"and this law was put in place."},{"startTime":295.699,"endTime":297.859,"body":"So the buildings are now"},{"startTime":295.699,"endTime":297.859,"body":"built with these types of"},{"startTime":297.859,"endTime":303.289,"body":"installations, but now the"},{"startTime":297.859,"endTime":303.289,"body":"fear has came here now, as"},{"startTime":303.289,"endTime":305.329,"body":"we have these installations,"},{"startTime":303.289,"endTime":305.329,"body":"we are thinking maybe we"},{"startTime":305.329,"endTime":307.429,"body":"should ban the electric"},{"startTime":305.329,"endTime":307.429,"body":"vehicles in the car parks."},{"startTime":307.789,"endTime":311.059,"body":"So it's kind of crazy"},{"startTime":307.789,"endTime":311.059,"body":"that we've went all the"},{"startTime":311.059,"endTime":312.739,"body":"way to invest in this."},{"startTime":312.739,"endTime":316.749,"body":"And now, because of fear,"},{"startTime":312.739,"endTime":316.749,"body":"not facts, not science,"},{"startTime":316.779,"endTime":318.309,"body":"not proof because of fear."},{"startTime":318.309,"endTime":321.909,"body":"We are rethinking that will"},{"startTime":318.309,"endTime":321.909,"body":"not me and the government."},{"startTime":321.909,"endTime":326.542,"body":"Then not I'm in no way"},{"startTime":321.909,"endTime":326.542,"body":"connected to them, but, uh, I"},{"startTime":326.542,"endTime":327.622,"body":"would despise this connection."},{"startTime":327.852,"endTime":332.802,"body":"Anyway, uh, this safety, you"},{"startTime":327.852,"endTime":332.802,"body":"what makes this battery system"},{"startTime":332.802,"endTime":338.082,"body":"feel unsafe to people people"},{"startTime":332.802,"endTime":338.082,"body":"are not scared of gasoline"},{"startTime":338.082,"endTime":341.592,"body":"with heat of combustion of"},{"startTime":338.082,"endTime":341.592,"body":"46 megajoules per kilogram,"},{"startTime":342.402,"endTime":346.492,"body":"which you contain like 50"},{"startTime":342.402,"endTime":346.492,"body":"liters on American, it would"},{"startTime":346.492,"endTime":348.662,"body":"be like 20 gallons your car."},{"startTime":348.662,"endTime":351.595,"body":"Why we are not scared of"},{"startTime":348.662,"endTime":351.595,"body":"riding on this bomb and"},{"startTime":351.595,"endTime":352.675,"body":"we're scared of battery."},{"startTime":352.675,"endTime":353.965,"body":"What made us do that?"},{"startTime":354.157,"endTime":355.933,"body":"oh, you know, that's"},{"startTime":354.157,"endTime":355.933,"body":"a, great question."},{"startTime":356.143,"endTime":356.503,"body":"And."},{"startTime":357.613,"endTime":359.893,"body":"The issue in general,"},{"startTime":357.613,"endTime":359.893,"body":"it's the risk perception"},{"startTime":359.893,"endTime":361.093,"body":"versus actual risk."},{"startTime":361.303,"endTime":365.503,"body":"And we, in general, as"},{"startTime":361.303,"endTime":365.503,"body":"humans are horrible with"},{"startTime":365.743,"endTime":369.06,"body":"really understanding risk"},{"startTime":365.743,"endTime":369.06,"body":"but risk perception is easy."},{"startTime":369.45,"endTime":373.5,"body":"And so with probably any new"},{"startTime":369.45,"endTime":373.5,"body":"technology and especially"},{"startTime":373.5,"endTime":377.509,"body":"with the way that we get"},{"startTime":373.5,"endTime":377.509,"body":"information these days, that"},{"startTime":377.757,"endTime":381.847,"body":"it's very easy to trigger,"},{"startTime":377.757,"endTime":381.847,"body":"very irrational fears."},{"startTime":381.997,"endTime":386.114,"body":"And it's in some sense, and"},{"startTime":381.997,"endTime":386.114,"body":"maybe I'm guilty of it too,"},{"startTime":386.114,"endTime":389.264,"body":"because of just, the fact"},{"startTime":386.114,"endTime":389.264,"body":"that we research it might"},{"startTime":389.534,"endTime":392.894,"body":"make people think, oh my gosh,"},{"startTime":389.534,"endTime":392.894,"body":"these systems are unsafe."},{"startTime":393.164,"endTime":395.141,"body":"Well, everything"},{"startTime":393.164,"endTime":395.141,"body":"is unsafe, right?"},{"startTime":395.147,"endTime":396.107,"body":"this is part of the issue."},{"startTime":396.137,"endTime":398.957,"body":"There's nothing that"},{"startTime":396.137,"endTime":398.957,"body":"is absolutely safe."},{"startTime":399.405,"endTime":400.83,"body":"Well, that's entropy man."},{"startTime":401.697,"endTime":402.267,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":402.327,"endTime":402.687,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":402.687,"endTime":405.837,"body":"So the way, the only way"},{"startTime":402.687,"endTime":405.837,"body":"that we can solve some of"},{"startTime":405.837,"endTime":409.107,"body":"the really unsafe things,"},{"startTime":405.837,"endTime":409.107,"body":"climate change global warming"},{"startTime":409.377,"endTime":414.507,"body":"is to use renewable energy"},{"startTime":409.377,"endTime":414.507,"body":"and to use energy storage."},{"startTime":414.537,"endTime":417.177,"body":"That is the way that we're"},{"startTime":414.537,"endTime":417.177,"body":"going to deal with some of"},{"startTime":417.177,"endTime":422.124,"body":"these, incredibly unsafe"},{"startTime":417.177,"endTime":422.124,"body":"situations that we should"},{"startTime":422.154,"endTime":424.074,"body":"be afraid of and fearful of."},{"startTime":424.404,"endTime":428.024,"body":"And from that perspective,"},{"startTime":424.404,"endTime":428.024,"body":"I think that there's a"},{"startTime":428.024,"endTime":432.104,"body":"responsibility for technologists"},{"startTime":428.024,"endTime":432.104,"body":"who are working in the safety"},{"startTime":432.104,"endTime":438.894,"body":"area to be very clear about why"},{"startTime":432.104,"endTime":438.894,"body":"the circumstances and issues"},{"startTime":438.894,"endTime":441.714,"body":"in which we're looking at"},{"startTime":438.894,"endTime":441.714,"body":"safety of particular systems."},{"startTime":441.894,"endTime":444.534,"body":"And again, it's not that"},{"startTime":441.894,"endTime":444.534,"body":"these things are, it's not,"},{"startTime":444.534,"endTime":446.754,"body":"fear-mongering, it's not"},{"startTime":444.534,"endTime":446.754,"body":"that these things are always"},{"startTime":446.754,"endTime":450.684,"body":"unsafe and that we should,"},{"startTime":446.754,"endTime":450.684,"body":"as a society, stay away from"},{"startTime":450.684,"endTime":451.824,"body":"these types of technologies."},{"startTime":451.824,"endTime":454.164,"body":"But in fact, it's"},{"startTime":451.824,"endTime":454.164,"body":"that, how do we."},{"startTime":454.629,"endTime":458.409,"body":"incentivize or move forward in"},{"startTime":454.629,"endTime":458.409,"body":"terms of these technologies?"},{"startTime":458.859,"endTime":461.649,"body":"Because we're improving the"},{"startTime":458.859,"endTime":461.649,"body":"overall safety of these systems."},{"startTime":461.649,"endTime":464.169,"body":"And so I'd like to think"},{"startTime":461.649,"endTime":464.169,"body":"about the work that I do"},{"startTime":464.169,"endTime":466.299,"body":"in the battery area as."},{"startTime":467.574,"endTime":471.204,"body":"Create safer systems, trying"},{"startTime":467.574,"endTime":471.204,"body":"to understand these systems"},{"startTime":471.204,"endTime":473.844,"body":"better so that we can design"},{"startTime":471.204,"endTime":473.844,"body":"against failures because"},{"startTime":473.844,"endTime":475.044,"body":"failures to just happen."},{"startTime":475.314,"endTime":479.237,"body":"And we've seen the improvements"},{"startTime":475.314,"endTime":479.237,"body":"in safety of, internal"},{"startTime":479.237,"endTime":482.117,"body":"combustion engines over"},{"startTime":479.237,"endTime":482.117,"body":"the last hundred years."},{"startTime":482.357,"endTime":485.027,"body":"Uh, we could argue that when"},{"startTime":482.357,"endTime":485.027,"body":"they were first introduced,"},{"startTime":485.267,"endTime":487.487,"body":"I mean, a lot of the safety"},{"startTime":485.267,"endTime":487.487,"body":"systems that we take for"},{"startTime":487.487,"endTime":489.707,"body":"granted now certainly were"},{"startTime":487.487,"endTime":489.707,"body":"not implemented there."},{"startTime":489.837,"endTime":492.747,"body":"So why wouldn't we expect that"},{"startTime":489.837,"endTime":492.747,"body":"there would be improvements in"},{"startTime":492.747,"endTime":497.631,"body":"safety for whether it's electric"},{"startTime":492.747,"endTime":497.631,"body":"vehicles or electric, storage"},{"startTime":497.631,"endTime":501.411,"body":"systems within homes, within"},{"startTime":497.631,"endTime":501.411,"body":"businesses at utility sites?"},{"startTime":501.411,"endTime":504.831,"body":"So the goal of course, is"},{"startTime":501.411,"endTime":504.831,"body":"to overall improve safety."},{"startTime":504.891,"endTime":508.041,"body":"And there's just so little"},{"startTime":504.891,"endTime":508.041,"body":"data that currently exists."},{"startTime":508.071,"endTime":512.571,"body":"But I think that between the"},{"startTime":508.071,"endTime":512.571,"body":"research and unfortunately"},{"startTime":512.571,"endTime":514.851,"body":"incidents that occur,"},{"startTime":512.571,"endTime":514.851,"body":"we're going to improve the"},{"startTime":514.851,"endTime":515.691,"body":"overall safety of these."},{"startTime":516.252,"endTime":519.712,"body":"In fact, if you would"},{"startTime":516.252,"endTime":519.712,"body":"look at it at the societal"},{"startTime":519.712,"endTime":522.892,"body":"level, I'm obviously not"},{"startTime":519.712,"endTime":522.892,"body":"a, not such a researcher."},{"startTime":522.892,"endTime":525.592,"body":"I think you're not either,"},{"startTime":522.892,"endTime":525.592,"body":"but you've experienced"},{"startTime":525.592,"endTime":526.732,"body":"blackouts last winter."},{"startTime":526.732,"endTime":527.032,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":527.092,"endTime":527.752,"body":"Uh, and,"},{"startTime":527.907,"endTime":528.087,"body":"No."},{"startTime":528.087,"endTime":528.387,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":528.922,"endTime":532.406,"body":"this type of grid where"},{"startTime":528.922,"endTime":532.406,"body":"everyone has a battery, for"},{"startTime":532.466,"endTime":535.076,"body":"themselves, that would be"},{"startTime":532.466,"endTime":535.076,"body":"probably a life changing"},{"startTime":535.736,"endTime":536.906,"body":"experience at that moment."},{"startTime":536.906,"endTime":538.397,"body":"There, the,"},{"startTime":538.512,"endTime":539.232,"body":"absolutely."},{"startTime":539.597,"endTime":543.164,"body":"uh, how big the benefit of"},{"startTime":539.597,"endTime":543.164,"body":"this technology can be, it"},{"startTime":543.189,"endTime":543.669,"body":"Oh yeah,"},{"startTime":543.824,"endTime":546.01,"body":"And you, you've mentioned"},{"startTime":543.824,"endTime":546.01,"body":"the energy generation and"},{"startTime":546.01,"endTime":549.07,"body":"storage, like of the new,"},{"startTime":546.01,"endTime":549.07,"body":"new types of fuels we're"},{"startTime":549.07,"endTime":552.737,"body":"using, uh, wind solar,"},{"startTime":549.07,"endTime":552.737,"body":"they're periodic at best and"},{"startTime":553.002,"endTime":553.707,"body":"exactly."},{"startTime":553.707,"endTime":554.817,"body":"if you're nasty to them,"},{"startTime":555.061,"endTime":555.379,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":556.269,"endTime":556.509,"body":"you yeah."},{"startTime":556.564,"endTime":559.444,"body":"need, you need to way to store"},{"startTime":556.564,"endTime":559.444,"body":"that we need to solve that."},{"startTime":560.195,"endTime":563.139,"body":"I also observed this movement"},{"startTime":560.195,"endTime":563.139,"body":"that the buildings should"},{"startTime":563.139,"endTime":566.919,"body":"be like net zero or possibly"},{"startTime":563.139,"endTime":566.919,"body":"positive energy generation."},{"startTime":566.919,"endTime":569.859,"body":"Like would be great if you're"},{"startTime":566.919,"endTime":569.859,"body":"building the create more"},{"startTime":569.859,"endTime":572.109,"body":"energy than it consumes, that"},{"startTime":569.859,"endTime":572.109,"body":"would be the best building"},{"startTime":572.109,"endTime":574.479,"body":"and like that exists today."},{"startTime":575.169,"endTime":577.829,"body":"And so it's something"},{"startTime":575.169,"endTime":577.829,"body":"we would like."},{"startTime":578.129,"endTime":580.679,"body":"And again, it's something"},{"startTime":578.129,"endTime":580.679,"body":"we're afraid of, you know,"},{"startTime":580.679,"endTime":583.484,"body":"it's it's, you cannot"},{"startTime":580.679,"endTime":583.484,"body":"have both, have to decide."},{"startTime":583.852,"endTime":587.282,"body":"and the more I learn"},{"startTime":583.852,"endTime":587.282,"body":"about the systems, the"},{"startTime":587.282,"endTime":589.502,"body":"less I am afraid of them."},{"startTime":589.502,"endTime":592.502,"body":"And I think that's probably"},{"startTime":589.502,"endTime":592.502,"body":"the correct direction."},{"startTime":592.712,"endTime":593.402,"body":"Well, I guess"},{"startTime":594.06,"endTime":595.71,"body":"oh, no, I completely agree."},{"startTime":595.77,"endTime":600.31,"body":"And so, part of it is"},{"startTime":595.77,"endTime":600.31,"body":"how do we take industry?"},{"startTime":600.31,"endTime":605.14,"body":"How do we take manufacturers"},{"startTime":600.31,"endTime":605.14,"body":"from a position of being afraid"},{"startTime":605.23,"endTime":607.81,"body":"of even acknowledging that"},{"startTime":605.23,"endTime":607.81,"body":"there are safety concerns?"},{"startTime":608.855,"endTime":613.205,"body":"To a point of acknowledgement"},{"startTime":608.855,"endTime":613.205,"body":"of those safety concerns and"},{"startTime":613.445,"endTime":615.125,"body":"with a goal of improvement."},{"startTime":615.425,"endTime":619.235,"body":"And so it's a delicate balance"},{"startTime":615.425,"endTime":619.235,"body":"that they have to walk because"},{"startTime":619.805,"endTime":623.045,"body":"if on the one hand they talk"},{"startTime":619.805,"endTime":623.045,"body":"about safety concerns in"},{"startTime":623.045,"endTime":626.345,"body":"their systems, and then it"},{"startTime":623.045,"endTime":626.345,"body":"feeds into this perceived"},{"startTime":626.405,"endTime":630.275,"body":"risk and perceived safety"},{"startTime":626.405,"endTime":630.275,"body":"fears of the general public."},{"startTime":630.575,"endTime":631.385,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":631.385,"endTime":634.985,"body":"So that's, so from their"},{"startTime":631.385,"endTime":634.985,"body":"perspective, and we've talked"},{"startTime":634.985,"endTime":639.699,"body":"to, you know, lots of industrial"},{"startTime":634.985,"endTime":639.699,"body":"concerns, about, well, we'd"},{"startTime":639.699,"endTime":643.179,"body":"like to help you understand"},{"startTime":639.699,"endTime":643.179,"body":"the safety of your battery"},{"startTime":643.179,"endTime":645.099,"body":"systems and why battery systems."},{"startTime":645.099,"endTime":647.769,"body":"I mean, from again, the"},{"startTime":645.099,"endTime":647.769,"body":"system level, whether to"},{"startTime":647.769,"endTime":652.599,"body":"containerize battery system,"},{"startTime":647.769,"endTime":652.599,"body":"to whether it's a particular"},{"startTime":652.599,"endTime":654.699,"body":"type of appliance and the."},{"startTime":655.33,"endTime":659.017,"body":"Response you typically get is"},{"startTime":655.33,"endTime":659.017,"body":"our systems are safe and there"},{"startTime":659.017,"endTime":660.397,"body":"are no problems with our system."},{"startTime":660.757,"endTime":663.427,"body":"And as a researcher,"},{"startTime":660.757,"endTime":663.427,"body":"who's looking at some"},{"startTime":663.427,"endTime":664.417,"body":"of these safety issues."},{"startTime":664.537,"endTime":667.657,"body":"We know that's not true, that"},{"startTime":664.537,"endTime":667.657,"body":"they can't possibly always"},{"startTime":667.657,"endTime":671.677,"body":"be safe there considerations"},{"startTime":667.657,"endTime":671.677,"body":"for I, the one I always"},{"startTime":671.827,"endTime":674.587,"body":"think about is listen,"},{"startTime":671.827,"endTime":674.587,"body":"fires have happened forever."},{"startTime":674.587,"endTime":676.327,"body":"Fire is always going to happen."},{"startTime":676.327,"endTime":678.787,"body":"Whether we go to space,"},{"startTime":676.327,"endTime":678.787,"body":"whether we're on the"},{"startTime":678.787,"endTime":680.8,"body":"sea, fire follows us."},{"startTime":680.88,"endTime":683.21,"body":"and so fires will happen."},{"startTime":683.48,"endTime":687.29,"body":"And the issue is that energy"},{"startTime":683.48,"endTime":687.29,"body":"storage systems will be"},{"startTime":687.32,"endTime":689.21,"body":"somewhere where a fire occurs."},{"startTime":689.21,"endTime":692.18,"body":"It may not be the cause of the"},{"startTime":689.21,"endTime":692.18,"body":"fire, but it will be somewhere"},{"startTime":692.33,"endTime":696.914,"body":"where a fire occurs, given that"},{"startTime":692.33,"endTime":696.914,"body":"what can we do to make sure"},{"startTime":696.914,"endTime":700.754,"body":"that your system doesn't add to"},{"startTime":696.914,"endTime":700.754,"body":"the consequences of that fire"},{"startTime":700.784,"endTime":702.584,"body":"that we know is going to occur?"},{"startTime":702.764,"endTime":704.894,"body":"So, and so that's sometimes."},{"startTime":705.719,"endTime":708.672,"body":"Makes them feel a little bit"},{"startTime":705.719,"endTime":708.672,"body":"better because it's an awareness"},{"startTime":708.672,"endTime":711.702,"body":"that we're not saying that"},{"startTime":708.672,"endTime":711.702,"body":"it's their system necessarily,"},{"startTime":711.702,"endTime":716.262,"body":"that's the cause of the problem,"},{"startTime":711.702,"endTime":716.262,"body":"but that we as researchers"},{"startTime":716.262,"endTime":718.722,"body":"and safety science, and in"},{"startTime":716.262,"endTime":718.722,"body":"particular on fire issues,"},{"startTime":719.112,"endTime":723.192,"body":"we have a wearness about"},{"startTime":719.112,"endTime":723.192,"body":"the frequency and intensity"},{"startTime":723.222,"endTime":725.172,"body":"consequences of fire generally."},{"startTime":725.442,"endTime":728.832,"body":"And we understand how other"},{"startTime":725.442,"endTime":728.832,"body":"fuel packages can get involved"},{"startTime":728.832,"endTime":733.092,"body":"in, can exacerbate the fire"},{"startTime":728.832,"endTime":733.092,"body":"consequences and fire impacts."},{"startTime":733.302,"endTime":736.842,"body":"So we're trying to help them"},{"startTime":733.302,"endTime":736.842,"body":"in some sense, alleviate some"},{"startTime":736.842,"endTime":739.432,"body":"of these consequences, some of"},{"startTime":736.842,"endTime":739.432,"body":"these negative consequences."},{"startTime":739.552,"endTime":744.075,"body":"So it's a delicate balance"},{"startTime":739.552,"endTime":744.075,"body":"then of taking manufacturers"},{"startTime":744.105,"endTime":747.915,"body":"and having them acknowledge"},{"startTime":744.105,"endTime":747.915,"body":"issues and try and improve"},{"startTime":747.915,"endTime":748.995,"body":"the safety of their systems."},{"startTime":749.315,"endTime":752.075,"body":"making sure that the general"},{"startTime":749.315,"endTime":752.075,"body":"public understands that"},{"startTime":752.075,"endTime":754.115,"body":"the systems are generally"},{"startTime":752.075,"endTime":754.115,"body":"safe and this is in fact,"},{"startTime":754.115,"endTime":758.615,"body":"the future and providing"},{"startTime":754.115,"endTime":758.615,"body":"guidance to regulators and."},{"startTime":759.365,"endTime":763.189,"body":"Permit authorities having"},{"startTime":759.365,"endTime":763.189,"body":"jurisdiction, who are decision"},{"startTime":763.189,"endTime":767.749,"body":"makers about how to sort of"},{"startTime":763.189,"endTime":767.749,"body":"balance this and in their sense"},{"startTime":767.749,"endTime":772.212,"body":"of, how do we PR you know, your"},{"startTime":767.749,"endTime":772.212,"body":"example, how do we allow EVs"},{"startTime":772.242,"endTime":777.732,"body":"in parking garages with the"},{"startTime":772.242,"endTime":777.732,"body":"best available safety systems"},{"startTime":777.822,"endTime":781.122,"body":"today and what are going to"},{"startTime":777.822,"endTime":781.122,"body":"be improvements in safety"},{"startTime":781.122,"endTime":786.342,"body":"systems tomorrow, and how do we"},{"startTime":781.122,"endTime":786.342,"body":"retrofit or move those forward?"},{"startTime":786.982,"endTime":789.102,"body":"That, that sort of, that's"},{"startTime":786.982,"endTime":789.102,"body":"a, it's a lot of, it's"},{"startTime":789.102,"endTime":791.362,"body":"a lot of work that we"},{"startTime":789.102,"endTime":791.362,"body":"have to do for that, huh?"},{"startTime":791.849,"endTime":796.499,"body":"Yeah, it seems so it seems like"},{"startTime":791.849,"endTime":796.499,"body":"a roadmap to safety is needed"},{"startTime":796.499,"endTime":797.729,"body":"or maybe even not to safety."},{"startTime":797.729,"endTime":801.962,"body":"Like it's a roadmap to improve"},{"startTime":797.729,"endTime":801.962,"body":"from position A to position B"},{"startTime":801.962,"endTime":805.352,"body":"to  position C, doesn't mean"},{"startTime":801.962,"endTime":805.352,"body":"that  position A  is unsafe."},{"startTime":805.372,"endTime":807.502,"body":"It's just position B"},{"startTime":805.372,"endTime":807.502,"body":"can be safer, right?"},{"startTime":807.762,"endTime":808.122,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":808.192,"endTime":812.032,"body":"be calling it a road to safety"},{"startTime":808.192,"endTime":812.032,"body":"that we are unsafe in some"},{"startTime":812.032,"endTime":814.762,"body":"way at this point, which"},{"startTime":812.032,"endTime":814.762,"body":"may not necessarily be true."},{"startTime":815.256,"endTime":816.693,"body":"For me, a very way."},{"startTime":817.273,"endTime":821.608,"body":"As someone looking around, at"},{"startTime":817.273,"endTime":821.608,"body":"this field, which is very alien"},{"startTime":821.608,"endTime":825.878,"body":"to me, I'm like, I did a lot of"},{"startTime":821.608,"endTime":825.878,"body":"things in, in compartment fires."},{"startTime":825.888,"endTime":827.228,"body":"I've burned buildings."},{"startTime":827.318,"endTime":828.548,"body":"I've did a lot of smoke."},{"startTime":828.561,"endTime":830.541,"body":"but men batteries"},{"startTime":828.561,"endTime":830.541,"body":"are alien to me."},{"startTime":830.601,"endTime":831.411,"body":"They are alien."},{"startTime":831.561,"endTime":832.851,"body":"I don't understand them."},{"startTime":834.591,"endTime":837.231,"body":"I know they have power"},{"startTime":834.591,"endTime":837.231,"body":"and they serve my laptop."},{"startTime":837.891,"endTime":840.054,"body":"but, I'm not an expert on that."},{"startTime":840.054,"endTime":844.978,"body":"So I wondered We probably"},{"startTime":840.054,"endTime":844.978,"body":"need solutions on all levels,"},{"startTime":844.978,"endTime":847.941,"body":"but the level of complexity"},{"startTime":844.978,"endTime":847.941,"body":"of this thing is really huge."},{"startTime":848.381,"endTime":851.941,"body":"you have the level of chemistry"},{"startTime":848.381,"endTime":851.941,"body":"your kathode, anode and I"},{"startTime":851.941,"endTime":855.154,"body":"know that the fluid inside,"},{"startTime":851.941,"endTime":855.154,"body":"the chemical compounds and"},{"startTime":855.184,"endTime":858.378,"body":"reactions that happen inside"},{"startTime":855.184,"endTime":858.378,"body":"the battery, have the battery"},{"startTime":858.378,"endTime":862.008,"body":"itself as a single cell,"},{"startTime":858.378,"endTime":862.008,"body":"element, a single pouch."},{"startTime":862.668,"endTime":866.538,"body":"is an ecosystem on its own"},{"startTime":862.668,"endTime":866.538,"body":"with its heat transfer with"},{"startTime":866.568,"endTime":869.328,"body":"its with its capacity, right?"},{"startTime":869.658,"endTime":872.148,"body":"Then you start merging"},{"startTime":869.658,"endTime":872.148,"body":"them together, creating"},{"startTime":872.148,"endTime":875.568,"body":"an environment when you've"},{"startTime":872.148,"endTime":875.568,"body":"connected multiple of the."},{"startTime":876.228,"endTime":878.478,"body":"Not necessarily, well,"},{"startTime":876.228,"endTime":878.478,"body":"you changed the risk."},{"startTime":878.538,"endTime":881.778,"body":"The question is how much do you,"},{"startTime":878.538,"endTime":881.778,"body":"did you just add all the risk"},{"startTime":881.778,"endTime":884.751,"body":"of them or have you created a"},{"startTime":881.778,"endTime":884.751,"body":"system with exponentially higher"},{"startTime":884.751,"endTime":886.281,"body":"risk than the cell individually?"},{"startTime":886.761,"endTime":890.504,"body":"then again, I've also learned"},{"startTime":886.761,"endTime":890.504,"body":"that, don't just put a"},{"startTime":890.504,"endTime":891.824,"body":"bunch of them into a car."},{"startTime":891.824,"endTime":893.654,"body":"You need a system"},{"startTime":891.824,"endTime":893.654,"body":"that manages them."},{"startTime":893.654,"endTime":898.754,"body":"So need to build a compartment"},{"startTime":893.654,"endTime":898.754,"body":"for them or, or some, some case"},{"startTime":898.754,"endTime":901.664,"body":"in which they're stalled, which"},{"startTime":898.754,"endTime":901.664,"body":"is the technology need the"},{"startTime":901.664,"endTime":904.744,"body":"battery management system that"},{"startTime":901.664,"endTime":904.744,"body":"makes sure they're operating"},{"startTime":904.744,"endTime":907.294,"body":"at the correct parameters"},{"startTime":904.744,"endTime":907.294,"body":"that manages the charging"},{"startTime":907.294,"endTime":908.734,"body":"and discharging and so on."},{"startTime":909.274,"endTime":911.848,"body":"then you, you have the whole"},{"startTime":909.274,"endTime":911.848,"body":"system which would be a car,"},{"startTime":911.848,"endTime":915.508,"body":"a building, or the benefactor"},{"startTime":911.848,"endTime":915.508,"body":"of the energy of this system."},{"startTime":916.018,"endTime":918.898,"body":"you have this many level"},{"startTime":916.018,"endTime":918.898,"body":"of complexities and I see"},{"startTime":919.231,"endTime":923.584,"body":"Potential challenges and, also,"},{"startTime":919.231,"endTime":923.584,"body":"but then will, opportunities"},{"startTime":923.824,"endTime":926.584,"body":"for improving the safety"},{"startTime":923.824,"endTime":926.584,"body":"at each of these levels."},{"startTime":926.584,"endTime":930.204,"body":"So please tell me at"},{"startTime":926.584,"endTime":930.204,"body":"what level you act and"},{"startTime":930.704,"endTime":933.418,"body":"do you think, biggest"},{"startTime":930.704,"endTime":933.418,"body":"improvements can come from?"},{"startTime":934.108,"endTime":935.306,"body":"Which someone can"},{"startTime":934.108,"endTime":935.306,"body":"see, the one you act"},{"startTime":936.851,"endTime":940.164,"body":"oh, so, I love what you just"},{"startTime":936.851,"endTime":940.164,"body":"said for a lot of reasons."},{"startTime":940.164,"endTime":942.924,"body":"And it goes back to a little bit"},{"startTime":940.164,"endTime":942.924,"body":"of what we were saying before."},{"startTime":943.917,"endTime":946.757,"body":"Technology in general"},{"startTime":943.917,"endTime":946.757,"body":"and technological systems"},{"startTime":946.767,"endTime":947.877,"body":"are getting more complex."},{"startTime":947.937,"endTime":950.367,"body":"So that's something that's"},{"startTime":947.937,"endTime":950.367,"body":"absolutely occurring."},{"startTime":950.817,"endTime":953.037,"body":"The pace at which these"},{"startTime":950.817,"endTime":953.037,"body":"things are changing and"},{"startTime":953.037,"endTime":955.137,"body":"evolving is increasing."},{"startTime":955.197,"endTime":956.277,"body":"The rate is increasing."},{"startTime":956.277,"endTime":959.127,"body":"So we're getting"},{"startTime":956.277,"endTime":959.127,"body":"increasing complexity."},{"startTime":959.157,"endTime":963.177,"body":"We're getting increasing"},{"startTime":959.157,"endTime":963.177,"body":"complexity faster, and we"},{"startTime":963.177,"endTime":964.587,"body":"are on the safety side."},{"startTime":964.587,"endTime":968.744,"body":"We're in some sense, the,"},{"startTime":964.587,"endTime":968.744,"body":"boundaries, the, reigns to try"},{"startTime":968.744,"endTime":971.474,"body":"to make sure that we manage"},{"startTime":968.744,"endTime":971.474,"body":"the overall safety of these"},{"startTime":971.534,"endTime":973.244,"body":"incredibly complex systems."},{"startTime":973.724,"endTime":977.264,"body":"And so these battery systems"},{"startTime":973.724,"endTime":977.264,"body":"are one of the first, I'm not"},{"startTime":977.264,"endTime":980.354,"body":"saying to say that the only, but"},{"startTime":977.264,"endTime":980.354,"body":"they're one of the early sort"},{"startTime":980.354,"endTime":985.504,"body":"of testing systems for us as"},{"startTime":980.354,"endTime":985.504,"body":"safety, technologists, safety,"},{"startTime":985.504,"endTime":990.431,"body":"engineers, safety profession,"},{"startTime":985.504,"endTime":990.431,"body":"to try to really figure out how"},{"startTime":990.431,"endTime":995.327,"body":"do we, allow this transition to"},{"startTime":990.431,"endTime":995.327,"body":"occur in a way that makes sense."},{"startTime":995.777,"endTime":996.164,"body":"So."},{"startTime":996.189,"endTime":1000.849,"body":"I see myself as really trying"},{"startTime":996.189,"endTime":1000.849,"body":"to impact the life safety and"},{"startTime":1000.849,"endTime":1004.299,"body":"property protection issues"},{"startTime":1000.849,"endTime":1004.299,"body":"associated with batteries."},{"startTime":1004.719,"endTime":1008.769,"body":"And the issue though becomes"},{"startTime":1004.719,"endTime":1008.769,"body":"that I feel to do that"},{"startTime":1009.039,"endTime":1010.749,"body":"appropriately inadequately."},{"startTime":1010.839,"endTime":1013.419,"body":"I need to understand this system"},{"startTime":1010.839,"endTime":1013.419,"body":"because of the complexity that"},{"startTime":1013.419,"endTime":1017.509,"body":"you mentioned, as an academic,"},{"startTime":1013.419,"endTime":1017.509,"body":"I benefit from working with"},{"startTime":1017.539,"endTime":1021.139,"body":"really smart people who can"},{"startTime":1017.539,"endTime":1021.139,"body":"teach me about these systems."},{"startTime":1021.139,"endTime":1025.659,"body":"So my, sort of goal is to learn"},{"startTime":1021.139,"endTime":1025.659,"body":"about this and to communicate"},{"startTime":1025.659,"endTime":1028.089,"body":"this and to improve the overall"},{"startTime":1025.659,"endTime":1028.089,"body":"safety of these systems."},{"startTime":1028.814,"endTime":1030.884,"body":"I, we can't do"},{"startTime":1028.814,"endTime":1030.884,"body":"these things alone."},{"startTime":1030.884,"endTime":1033.901,"body":"We, as we discussed,"},{"startTime":1030.884,"endTime":1033.901,"body":"we work in communities."},{"startTime":1034.321,"endTime":1035.821,"body":"we tell stories, we talk."},{"startTime":1036.091,"endTime":1040.871,"body":"And so from that perspective"},{"startTime":1036.091,"endTime":1040.871,"body":"I've asked my students and"},{"startTime":1040.871,"endTime":1044.441,"body":"my collaborators, how to"},{"startTime":1040.871,"endTime":1044.441,"body":"bring me up to speed in"},{"startTime":1044.441,"endTime":1048.341,"body":"terms of our research, by"},{"startTime":1044.441,"endTime":1048.341,"body":"looking at things as sort of."},{"startTime":1049.016,"endTime":1052.519,"body":"Far from what I do as"},{"startTime":1049.016,"endTime":1052.519,"body":"for example, electrical"},{"startTime":1052.519,"endTime":1054.169,"body":"circuit modeling of cells."},{"startTime":1054.259,"endTime":1057.649,"body":"So I want to understand"},{"startTime":1054.259,"endTime":1057.649,"body":"fundamentally how"},{"startTime":1057.649,"endTime":1059.599,"body":"does a battery work?"},{"startTime":1059.659,"endTime":1065.059,"body":"And so, uh, I've had students"},{"startTime":1059.659,"endTime":1065.059,"body":"working on, uh, pseudo two D"},{"startTime":1065.059,"endTime":1070.369,"body":"models of cells, of circuit"},{"startTime":1065.059,"endTime":1070.369,"body":"models of cells, of all sorts"},{"startTime":1070.369,"endTime":1073.399,"body":"of different models of cells,"},{"startTime":1070.369,"endTime":1073.399,"body":"so that I can understand the"},{"startTime":1073.399,"endTime":1077.509,"body":"electrical performance of cells"},{"startTime":1073.399,"endTime":1077.509,"body":"and what issues cell researchers"},{"startTime":1077.509,"endTime":1082.189,"body":"are interested in for that, that"},{"startTime":1077.509,"endTime":1082.189,"body":"gives me some insight into what"},{"startTime":1082.189,"endTime":1085.909,"body":"the challenges are at that scale"},{"startTime":1082.189,"endTime":1085.909,"body":"and from a modeling perspective,"},{"startTime":1085.939,"endTime":1089.389,"body":"because that's going to be"},{"startTime":1085.939,"endTime":1089.389,"body":"important as we start to think"},{"startTime":1089.389,"endTime":1092.899,"body":"about multiple cells or as"},{"startTime":1089.389,"endTime":1092.899,"body":"we start to think about even"},{"startTime":1092.899,"endTime":1097.733,"body":"layers of the sort of, uh,"},{"startTime":1092.899,"endTime":1097.733,"body":"single layer cell systems, then"},{"startTime":1097.823,"endTime":1102.233,"body":"at like increasing complexity,"},{"startTime":1097.823,"endTime":1102.233,"body":"then we ask questions about what"},{"startTime":1102.233,"endTime":1104.093,"body":"happens if we have cell failure?"},{"startTime":1104.123,"endTime":1105.083,"body":"How do we think of."},{"startTime":1105.613,"endTime":1109.453,"body":"Electrical performance as"},{"startTime":1105.613,"endTime":1109.453,"body":"for example, initiating"},{"startTime":1109.903,"endTime":1111.343,"body":"thermal considerations."},{"startTime":1111.343,"endTime":1116.593,"body":"And so just even in the normal"},{"startTime":1111.343,"endTime":1116.593,"body":"cycling of a cell there's heat"},{"startTime":1116.593,"endTime":1119.863,"body":"generation, and we appreciate"},{"startTime":1116.593,"endTime":1119.863,"body":"that, we know that now the"},{"startTime":1119.863,"endTime":1123.283,"body":"question is can this heat"},{"startTime":1119.863,"endTime":1123.283,"body":"generation itself iManage or"},{"startTime":1123.283,"endTime":1126.973,"body":"is there some possibility of"},{"startTime":1123.283,"endTime":1126.973,"body":"it cascading into a thermal"},{"startTime":1127.213,"endTime":1130.633,"body":"and thermal chemical reaction"},{"startTime":1127.213,"endTime":1130.633,"body":"rate that would occur."},{"startTime":1130.933,"endTime":1133.003,"body":"And so understanding"},{"startTime":1130.933,"endTime":1133.003,"body":"that is important."},{"startTime":1133.063,"endTime":1137.053,"body":"And again, I'm not a chemist,"},{"startTime":1133.063,"endTime":1137.053,"body":"but how do we think about"},{"startTime":1137.053,"endTime":1140.053,"body":"parameterizing low order"},{"startTime":1137.053,"endTime":1140.053,"body":"models that can allow us"},{"startTime":1140.053,"endTime":1143.983,"body":"to understand how this"},{"startTime":1140.053,"endTime":1143.983,"body":"reaction process occurs?"},{"startTime":1144.283,"endTime":1147.133,"body":"Again, with an eye at"},{"startTime":1144.283,"endTime":1147.133,"body":"consequence scale at"},{"startTime":1147.133,"endTime":1149.953,"body":"largest largest scales"},{"startTime":1147.133,"endTime":1149.953,"body":"for us, which might be"},{"startTime":1149.953,"endTime":1152.803,"body":"the building or container"},{"startTime":1149.953,"endTime":1152.803,"body":"or the electric vehicle."},{"startTime":1153.853,"endTime":1157.018,"body":"And so now again,"},{"startTime":1153.853,"endTime":1157.018,"body":"Understanding, for example,"},{"startTime":1157.018,"endTime":1158.728,"body":"cell to cell propagation."},{"startTime":1158.728,"endTime":1161.698,"body":"Now it's a little bit looking"},{"startTime":1158.728,"endTime":1161.698,"body":"more like what we normally do"},{"startTime":1161.698,"endTime":1164.968,"body":"in terms of heat, transfer,"},{"startTime":1161.698,"endTime":1164.968,"body":"physics, mass transfer issues,"},{"startTime":1165.583,"endTime":1166.903,"body":"solid fire"},{"startTime":1167.269,"endTime":1168.199,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1168.469,"endTime":1169.129,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1169.129,"endTime":1171.259,"body":"So it's looking more like"},{"startTime":1169.129,"endTime":1171.259,"body":"what we do, but it's a"},{"startTime":1171.259,"endTime":1175.069,"body":"parameterization of the"},{"startTime":1171.259,"endTime":1175.069,"body":"kinetics associated with that."},{"startTime":1175.489,"endTime":1176.209,"body":"I would argue."},{"startTime":1176.209,"endTime":1179.209,"body":"That's not that different from"},{"startTime":1176.209,"endTime":1179.209,"body":"what we, as fire scientists,"},{"startTime":1179.209,"endTime":1182.749,"body":"researchers have done for"},{"startTime":1179.209,"endTime":1182.749,"body":"decades in terms of looking"},{"startTime":1182.749,"endTime":1184.159,"body":"at condensed phase systems."},{"startTime":1184.429,"endTime":1186.709,"body":"My gosh, condensed phase,"},{"startTime":1184.429,"endTime":1186.709,"body":"any condensed systems,"},{"startTime":1186.709,"endTime":1187.609,"body":"incredibly complex."},{"startTime":1187.609,"endTime":1191.719,"body":"I say, Hey, talk about wood"},{"startTime":1187.609,"endTime":1191.719,"body":"or polyurethane or anything."},{"startTime":1191.839,"endTime":1193.309,"body":"And you tell me"},{"startTime":1191.839,"endTime":1193.309,"body":"that that's simple."},{"startTime":1193.339,"endTime":1195.989,"body":"That's there's nothing"},{"startTime":1193.339,"endTime":1195.989,"body":"simple about understanding"},{"startTime":1195.989,"endTime":1199.049,"body":"the degradation of these"},{"startTime":1195.989,"endTime":1199.049,"body":"condensed phase systems."},{"startTime":1199.425,"endTime":1203.799,"body":"now with all the decades"},{"startTime":1199.425,"endTime":1203.799,"body":"and number of researchers,"},{"startTime":1203.799,"endTime":1207.279,"body":"who've put so much energy and"},{"startTime":1203.799,"endTime":1207.279,"body":"intellectual effort into that."},{"startTime":1207.519,"endTime":1209.589,"body":"We have a better"},{"startTime":1207.519,"endTime":1209.589,"body":"understanding of how"},{"startTime":1209.589,"endTime":1211.019,"body":"these systems degrade and."},{"startTime":1211.824,"endTime":1215.214,"body":"Both in terms of the toxicity"},{"startTime":1211.824,"endTime":1215.214,"body":"in terms of the energy release"},{"startTime":1215.214,"endTime":1218.034,"body":"rates, in terms of all these"},{"startTime":1215.214,"endTime":1218.034,"body":"factors, what happens with"},{"startTime":1218.034,"endTime":1221.014,"body":"these complex engineered"},{"startTime":1218.034,"endTime":1221.014,"body":"systems, like Polyurethane"},{"startTime":1221.484,"endTime":1224.334,"body":"now, and we've devised tools."},{"startTime":1224.364,"endTime":1226.554,"body":"You had Vyto"},{"startTime":1224.364,"endTime":1226.554,"body":"Babrauskas on earlier."},{"startTime":1226.794,"endTime":1229.974,"body":"We've devised tools to"},{"startTime":1226.794,"endTime":1229.974,"body":"characterize and measure"},{"startTime":1230.394,"endTime":1232.674,"body":"the energy release"},{"startTime":1230.394,"endTime":1232.674,"body":"rate of the systems."},{"startTime":1232.764,"endTime":1235.314,"body":"The, again, the toxicity"},{"startTime":1232.764,"endTime":1235.314,"body":"chemicals, et cetera."},{"startTime":1236.094,"endTime":1238.824,"body":"We haven't developed"},{"startTime":1236.094,"endTime":1238.824,"body":"that to the same extent"},{"startTime":1239.124,"endTime":1241.158,"body":"for a new technology."},{"startTime":1241.428,"endTime":1241.824,"body":"Like."},{"startTime":1242.096,"endTime":1246.366,"body":"a lithium-ion cell, there are"},{"startTime":1242.096,"endTime":1246.366,"body":"tools out there, but maybe we"},{"startTime":1246.366,"endTime":1247.626,"body":"don't understand them or wavy."},{"startTime":1247.626,"endTime":1249.786,"body":"We haven't fashioned"},{"startTime":1247.626,"endTime":1249.786,"body":"them into a way to really"},{"startTime":1249.786,"endTime":1252.726,"body":"understand some of the issues"},{"startTime":1249.786,"endTime":1252.726,"body":"in terms of propagation."},{"startTime":1252.726,"endTime":1255.366,"body":"And we're in the early"},{"startTime":1252.726,"endTime":1255.366,"body":"days of characterizing"},{"startTime":1255.366,"endTime":1257.706,"body":"and really understanding"},{"startTime":1255.366,"endTime":1257.706,"body":"those types of details."},{"startTime":1258.096,"endTime":1261.096,"body":"But arguably once we do"},{"startTime":1258.096,"endTime":1261.096,"body":"understand that and we're"},{"startTime":1261.096,"endTime":1263.946,"body":"able to parameterize these"},{"startTime":1261.096,"endTime":1263.946,"body":"lower order models, then"},{"startTime":1263.946,"endTime":1266.136,"body":"we can think about what"},{"startTime":1263.946,"endTime":1266.136,"body":"propagation looks like."},{"startTime":1266.136,"endTime":1268.296,"body":"What rate of gas"},{"startTime":1266.136,"endTime":1268.296,"body":"release looks like?"},{"startTime":1268.596,"endTime":1270.906,"body":"What rate of energy"},{"startTime":1268.596,"endTime":1270.906,"body":"release looks like for"},{"startTime":1270.906,"endTime":1272.466,"body":"these types of components."},{"startTime":1272.826,"endTime":1275.646,"body":"And then we stitch it"},{"startTime":1272.826,"endTime":1275.646,"body":"together at the higher level."},{"startTime":1275.946,"endTime":1279.306,"body":"Now you said also that"},{"startTime":1275.946,"endTime":1279.306,"body":"the complexity is not just"},{"startTime":1279.306,"endTime":1281.976,"body":"associated with the cells"},{"startTime":1279.306,"endTime":1281.976,"body":"and that's absolutely true."},{"startTime":1282.246,"endTime":1285.093,"body":"The complexity is that"},{"startTime":1282.246,"endTime":1285.093,"body":"it's a system and it's"},{"startTime":1285.103,"endTime":1289.003,"body":"a software based system,"},{"startTime":1285.103,"endTime":1289.003,"body":"which is increasingly true."},{"startTime":1289.363,"endTime":1291.373,"body":"So there's a battery"},{"startTime":1289.363,"endTime":1291.373,"body":"management system."},{"startTime":1291.373,"endTime":1295.693,"body":"There are all sorts of other"},{"startTime":1291.373,"endTime":1295.693,"body":"protection systems often."},{"startTime":1296.559,"endTime":1299.866,"body":"Some chip or in some sort"},{"startTime":1296.559,"endTime":1299.866,"body":"of logic sequence that's"},{"startTime":1299.956,"endTime":1301.066,"body":"associated with that."},{"startTime":1301.426,"endTime":1303.466,"body":"And unfortunately"},{"startTime":1301.426,"endTime":1303.466,"body":"bugs can occur."},{"startTime":1303.575,"endTime":1307.933,"body":"You can buy a BMS for"},{"startTime":1303.575,"endTime":1307.933,"body":"as cheap as $15, and you"},{"startTime":1308.353,"endTime":1309.553,"body":"get what you pay for."},{"startTime":1309.763,"endTime":1314.563,"body":"So there are really strong"},{"startTime":1309.763,"endTime":1314.563,"body":"battery management systems"},{"startTime":1314.593,"endTime":1318.676,"body":"that no matter how, flawed"},{"startTime":1314.593,"endTime":1318.676,"body":"a particular cell might be,"},{"startTime":1319.126,"endTime":1321.016,"body":"that can overcome the flaws"},{"startTime":1321.076,"endTime":1321.646,"body":"of cell."},{"startTime":1322.126,"endTime":1322.676,"body":"it and"},{"startTime":1323.911,"endTime":1324.301,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1324.331,"endTime":1325.291,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":1325.291,"endTime":1328.181,"body":"They can balance out some"},{"startTime":1325.291,"endTime":1328.181,"body":"of the issues between"},{"startTime":1328.251,"endTime":1331.761,"body":"poorly performing cells"},{"startTime":1328.251,"endTime":1331.761,"body":"and better performing cells"},{"startTime":1331.761,"endTime":1334.311,"body":"because natural variability"},{"startTime":1331.761,"endTime":1334.311,"body":"exists in terms of sort of"},{"startTime":1334.311,"endTime":1337.071,"body":"cells from a manufacturing"},{"startTime":1334.311,"endTime":1337.071,"body":"perspective or otherwise."},{"startTime":1337.581,"endTime":1341.361,"body":"And then on top of it, we may"},{"startTime":1337.581,"endTime":1341.361,"body":"have other components in the"},{"startTime":1341.361,"endTime":1346.071,"body":"system, whether it's an inverter"},{"startTime":1341.361,"endTime":1346.071,"body":"or other sort of traditional"},{"startTime":1346.161,"endTime":1350.331,"body":"electrical mechanical systems,"},{"startTime":1346.161,"endTime":1350.331,"body":"any of these can possibly"},{"startTime":1350.331,"endTime":1355.611,"body":"fail on top of it because of"},{"startTime":1350.331,"endTime":1355.611,"body":"failures, we have sensors."},{"startTime":1355.641,"endTime":1359.661,"body":"And so the sensors could"},{"startTime":1355.641,"endTime":1359.661,"body":"initiate some sort of activity."},{"startTime":1360.288,"endTime":1363.228,"body":"one would say that, oh,"},{"startTime":1360.288,"endTime":1363.228,"body":"that would be crazy for a"},{"startTime":1363.228,"endTime":1364.758,"body":"sensor system to initiate."},{"startTime":1365.184,"endTime":1368.634,"body":"an intervention that might"},{"startTime":1365.184,"endTime":1368.634,"body":"cause additional failures, but"},{"startTime":1368.634,"endTime":1372.564,"body":"I think we've seen that even"},{"startTime":1368.634,"endTime":1372.564,"body":"in the battery space where, oh,"},{"startTime":1372.864,"endTime":1377.544,"body":"misdiagnosis of say smoke, the"},{"startTime":1372.864,"endTime":1377.544,"body":"smoke could have been outside"},{"startTime":1377.544,"endTime":1379.104,"body":"of the battery container."},{"startTime":1379.194,"endTime":1383.874,"body":"So a smoke detector could"},{"startTime":1379.194,"endTime":1383.874,"body":"trigger intervention, for"},{"startTime":1383.874,"endTime":1388.941,"body":"example, a water spray that"},{"startTime":1383.874,"endTime":1388.941,"body":"could damage the cells and then"},{"startTime":1388.941,"endTime":1390.921,"body":"lead to a cascading propagation."},{"startTime":1391.281,"endTime":1393.771,"body":"And so without again,"},{"startTime":1391.281,"endTime":1393.771,"body":"naming names, things"},{"startTime":1393.771,"endTime":1395.181,"body":"like this have occurred."},{"startTime":1395.451,"endTime":1400.144,"body":"So, as we think about these"},{"startTime":1395.451,"endTime":1400.144,"body":"very complex systems, maybe B"},{"startTime":1400.144,"endTime":1404.451,"body":"issue really is that we have"},{"startTime":1400.144,"endTime":1404.451,"body":"to rethink how we, analyze"},{"startTime":1404.451,"endTime":1407.241,"body":"safety for very complex systems."},{"startTime":1407.241,"endTime":1412.281,"body":"And maybe we're really learning"},{"startTime":1407.241,"endTime":1412.281,"body":"with these battery systems."},{"startTime":1412.311,"endTime":1416.211,"body":"And this is the template by"},{"startTime":1412.311,"endTime":1416.211,"body":"which our profession evolves in"},{"startTime":1416.211,"endTime":1417.907,"body":"terms of understanding safety."},{"startTime":1418.241,"endTime":1421.951,"body":"I'm not even sort of, I"},{"startTime":1418.241,"endTime":1421.951,"body":"know nothing about fusion,"},{"startTime":1422.071,"endTime":1425.341,"body":"but every week there's"},{"startTime":1422.071,"endTime":1425.341,"body":"another article that,"},{"startTime":1425.741,"endTime":1425.891,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":1426.643,"endTime":1429.834,"body":"that there are improvements"},{"startTime":1426.643,"endTime":1429.834,"body":"and pathways towards"},{"startTime":1429.954,"endTime":1431.784,"body":"workable fusion reactors."},{"startTime":1432.864,"endTime":1434.274,"body":"Somebody's got to protect."},{"startTime":1434.454,"endTime":1438.474,"body":"So we already protect nuclear"},{"startTime":1434.454,"endTime":1438.474,"body":"reactors as a community."},{"startTime":1438.504,"endTime":1444.954,"body":"So the new, the nuclear"},{"startTime":1438.504,"endTime":1444.954,"body":"industry uses fire and safety"},{"startTime":1444.954,"endTime":1448.674,"body":"professionals to ensure that"},{"startTime":1444.954,"endTime":1448.674,"body":"these incredibly complex"},{"startTime":1448.674,"endTime":1450.924,"body":"systems don't catastrophic fail."},{"startTime":1451.534,"endTime":1454.998,"body":"we're going to have increasingly"},{"startTime":1451.534,"endTime":1454.998,"body":"spaceports and we're going"},{"startTime":1454.998,"endTime":1458.808,"body":"to have rocket systems and"},{"startTime":1454.998,"endTime":1458.808,"body":"all the complexity associated"},{"startTime":1458.808,"endTime":1459.828,"body":"with the fuels there."},{"startTime":1460.533,"endTime":1463.083,"body":"And we're going to be the"},{"startTime":1460.533,"endTime":1463.083,"body":"ones asked to manage them."},{"startTime":1463.373,"endTime":1466.469,"body":"we think about the, there was"},{"startTime":1463.373,"endTime":1466.469,"body":"a recently a large warehouse"},{"startTime":1466.469,"endTime":1470.519,"body":"fire in the U S warehouses"},{"startTime":1466.469,"endTime":1470.519,"body":"aren't supposed to burn, right."},{"startTime":1470.519,"endTime":1472.889,"body":"We, you know, we have all sorts"},{"startTime":1470.519,"endTime":1472.889,"body":"of fire protection systems"},{"startTime":1472.889,"endTime":1476.039,"body":"in place that should protect"},{"startTime":1472.889,"endTime":1476.039,"body":"against them, but it's with the"},{"startTime":1476.039,"endTime":1479.963,"body":"increasing complexity of all"},{"startTime":1476.039,"endTime":1479.963,"body":"these systems that, you know,"},{"startTime":1479.963,"endTime":1485.549,"body":"maybe we sort of, the piecemeal"},{"startTime":1479.963,"endTime":1485.549,"body":"approaches to protection and"},{"startTime":1485.549,"endTime":1488.189,"body":"the research associated with"},{"startTime":1485.549,"endTime":1488.189,"body":"thinking about protection"},{"startTime":1488.189,"endTime":1491.999,"body":"for these complex systems"},{"startTime":1488.189,"endTime":1491.999,"body":"that it has to evolve also."},{"startTime":1492.179,"endTime":1494.189,"body":"And I know that you're"},{"startTime":1492.179,"endTime":1494.189,"body":"doing a lot of work in"},{"startTime":1494.189,"endTime":1496.379,"body":"terms of characterization"},{"startTime":1494.189,"endTime":1496.379,"body":"of complex systems."},{"startTime":1496.379,"endTime":1497.939,"body":"And you know, whether"},{"startTime":1496.379,"endTime":1497.939,"body":"it's, again, did, you said"},{"startTime":1497.939,"endTime":1500.819,"body":"building scales buildings are"},{"startTime":1497.939,"endTime":1500.819,"body":"increasingly complex systems"},{"startTime":1500.819,"endTime":1504.599,"body":"with software controls,"},{"startTime":1500.819,"endTime":1504.599,"body":"HVAC system sensor systems."},{"startTime":1504.819,"endTime":1505.539,"body":"It's insane."},{"startTime":1505.569,"endTime":1505.749,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1506.429,"endTime":1507.059,"body":"It's incredible."},{"startTime":1507.059,"endTime":1507.359,"body":"Isn't it?"},{"startTime":1507.826,"endTime":1508.196,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1508.266,"endTime":1512.706,"body":"It's, I'm very safe about"},{"startTime":1508.266,"endTime":1512.706,"body":"my war job with this"},{"startTime":1512.706,"endTime":1514.206,"body":"complexity increase."},{"startTime":1515.296,"endTime":1518.767,"body":"I wanted also, going back"},{"startTime":1515.296,"endTime":1518.767,"body":"to this, issue of fear and,"},{"startTime":1518.967,"endTime":1521.224,"body":"safety, A failure is a failure."},{"startTime":1521.254,"endTime":1523.444,"body":"Not every failure"},{"startTime":1521.254,"endTime":1523.444,"body":"is a catastrophe."},{"startTime":1524.284,"endTime":1530.674,"body":"I wondered if maybe we could try"},{"startTime":1524.284,"endTime":1530.674,"body":"characterize what distinguishes"},{"startTime":1531.214,"endTime":1534.624,"body":"a failure that could be"},{"startTime":1531.214,"endTime":1534.624,"body":"acceptable or, negligent."},{"startTime":1535.334,"endTime":1539.654,"body":"From a failure that, turns"},{"startTime":1535.334,"endTime":1539.654,"body":"into, first page of a newspaper,"},{"startTime":1540.504,"endTime":1541.794,"body":"we've seen these videos."},{"startTime":1541.794,"endTime":1544.914,"body":"Uh, there was a video in the"},{"startTime":1541.794,"endTime":1544.914,"body":"Shanghai with a huge fire."},{"startTime":1545.424,"endTime":1548.484,"body":"was a video of Chinese"},{"startTime":1545.424,"endTime":1548.484,"body":"buses catching fire."},{"startTime":1548.99,"endTime":1553.61,"body":"there was a, this ship"},{"startTime":1548.99,"endTime":1553.61,"body":"that burned down plenty of"},{"startTime":1553.61,"endTime":1556.01,"body":"fancy cars for Americans,"},{"startTime":1553.61,"endTime":1556.01,"body":"which you will not get."},{"startTime":1556.67,"endTime":1557.36,"body":"It's a shame when"},{"startTime":1557.495,"endTime":1558.035,"body":"that's right."},{"startTime":1559.7,"endTime":1560.33,"body":"you, are going to ride"},{"startTime":1560.585,"endTime":1561.275,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1562.28,"endTime":1562.49,"body":"now,"},{"startTime":1564.605,"endTime":1565.775,"body":"Those aren't safe either."},{"startTime":1565.775,"endTime":1567.215,"body":"You know, you can get"},{"startTime":1565.775,"endTime":1567.215,"body":"kicked by a horse."},{"startTime":1569.23,"endTime":1573.786,"body":"I would claim it's also rich"},{"startTime":1569.23,"endTime":1573.786,"body":"people vehicle and that's, but"},{"startTime":1573.816,"endTime":1578.231,"body":"yeah, What's the scenario when"},{"startTime":1573.816,"endTime":1578.231,"body":"this fire of a battery system"},{"startTime":1578.261,"endTime":1581.171,"body":"becomes catastrophical, what"},{"startTime":1578.261,"endTime":1581.171,"body":"is the cause of such a fire?"},{"startTime":1581.621,"endTime":1585.161,"body":"I know a phrase thermal"},{"startTime":1581.621,"endTime":1585.161,"body":"runaway, and, it sounds scary."},{"startTime":1585.161,"endTime":1588.731,"body":"And, uh, I guess the videos"},{"startTime":1585.161,"endTime":1588.731,"body":"have shown that, but how"},{"startTime":1588.731,"endTime":1591.821,"body":"does, uh, a failure of a"},{"startTime":1588.731,"endTime":1591.821,"body":"cell become a catastrophe"},{"startTime":1592.601,"endTime":1592.991,"body":"good."},{"startTime":1593.141,"endTime":1593.411,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1593.441,"endTime":1596.741,"body":"So maybe first of all,"},{"startTime":1593.441,"endTime":1596.741,"body":"we talk about possible"},{"startTime":1596.741,"endTime":1597.761,"body":"failures of cells."},{"startTime":1597.881,"endTime":1601.421,"body":"And so, um, a cell itself"},{"startTime":1597.881,"endTime":1601.421,"body":"could fail because of"},{"startTime":1601.601,"endTime":1603.221,"body":"challenges in manufacturing."},{"startTime":1603.522,"endTime":1606.461,"body":"what's interesting is that,"},{"startTime":1603.522,"endTime":1606.461,"body":"my university, university"},{"startTime":1606.461,"endTime":1610.311,"body":"of Texas, uh, A long history"},{"startTime":1606.461,"endTime":1610.311,"body":"of sort of excellence"},{"startTime":1610.341,"endTime":1612.388,"body":"in, battery materials."},{"startTime":1612.418,"endTime":1615.358,"body":"And so we have distinguished,"},{"startTime":1612.418,"endTime":1615.358,"body":"we have a Nobel Laureate with"},{"startTime":1615.398,"endTime":1617.698,"body":"distinguished researchers"},{"startTime":1615.398,"endTime":1617.698,"body":"who were working on the"},{"startTime":1617.698,"endTime":1619.138,"body":"battery materials issues."},{"startTime":1619.621,"endTime":1622.801,"body":"there's a big step up"},{"startTime":1619.621,"endTime":1622.801,"body":"between sort of designing"},{"startTime":1622.861,"endTime":1625.531,"body":"and envisioning what the"},{"startTime":1622.861,"endTime":1625.531,"body":"right battery materials"},{"startTime":1625.531,"endTime":1628.651,"body":"are and the actual"},{"startTime":1625.531,"endTime":1628.651,"body":"manufacturing of batteries."},{"startTime":1628.981,"endTime":1632.161,"body":"And so a couple of years"},{"startTime":1628.981,"endTime":1632.161,"body":"ago, few years ago, we"},{"startTime":1632.161,"endTime":1635.271,"body":"decided that we were going"},{"startTime":1632.161,"endTime":1635.271,"body":"to embark on, an exercise to"},{"startTime":1635.331,"endTime":1639.021,"body":"develop a battery fabrication"},{"startTime":1635.331,"endTime":1639.021,"body":"of prototyping facility."},{"startTime":1639.441,"endTime":1642.415,"body":"And, I was fortunate enough"},{"startTime":1639.441,"endTime":1642.415,"body":"be involved and I'm still"},{"startTime":1642.415,"endTime":1643.855,"body":"involved in that process."},{"startTime":1644.185,"endTime":1647.018,"body":"And so, what I've learned"},{"startTime":1644.185,"endTime":1647.018,"body":"about that is, is that"},{"startTime":1647.408,"endTime":1651.098,"body":"battery manufacturing is"},{"startTime":1647.408,"endTime":1651.098,"body":"A) really hard, there is"},{"startTime":1651.818,"endTime":1656.408,"body":"limited metrology and in some"},{"startTime":1651.818,"endTime":1656.408,"body":"sense, quality control there."},{"startTime":1657.473,"endTime":1661.763,"body":"The us government has"},{"startTime":1657.473,"endTime":1661.763,"body":"finally realized that battery"},{"startTime":1661.763,"endTime":1665.983,"body":"manufacturing is a strategically"},{"startTime":1661.763,"endTime":1665.983,"body":"important national interest."},{"startTime":1665.983,"endTime":1668.453,"body":"So it's something that"},{"startTime":1665.983,"endTime":1668.453,"body":"absolutely needs to"},{"startTime":1668.453,"endTime":1671.813,"body":"be done because we're"},{"startTime":1668.453,"endTime":1671.813,"body":"increasingly relying on"},{"startTime":1671.813,"endTime":1673.193,"body":"these types of technologies."},{"startTime":1673.673,"endTime":1678.233,"body":"So learning about that has"},{"startTime":1673.673,"endTime":1678.233,"body":"pointed out to me that very"},{"startTime":1678.233,"endTime":1682.726,"body":"small mistakes can occur in"},{"startTime":1678.233,"endTime":1682.726,"body":"terms of the manufacturing that"},{"startTime":1683.086,"endTime":1687.286,"body":"would perhaps not immediately"},{"startTime":1683.086,"endTime":1687.286,"body":"recognize in any kind of cell"},{"startTime":1687.286,"endTime":1691.636,"body":"testing, but could have long"},{"startTime":1687.286,"endTime":1691.636,"body":"term consequences when a cell"},{"startTime":1691.636,"endTime":1695.476,"body":"is supposed to last years,"},{"startTime":1691.636,"endTime":1695.476,"body":"for example, so thousands of"},{"startTime":1695.476,"endTime":1696.076,"body":"cycles."},{"startTime":1696.451,"endTime":1699.431,"body":"well, I think when we're, when"},{"startTime":1696.451,"endTime":1699.431,"body":"we were talking about battery"},{"startTime":1699.431,"endTime":1703.481,"body":"manufacturing, I don't know if"},{"startTime":1699.431,"endTime":1703.481,"body":"everyone realizes it, but we"},{"startTime":1703.481,"endTime":1709.121,"body":"were talking about quantities"},{"startTime":1703.481,"endTime":1709.121,"body":"manufactured at the same time,"},{"startTime":1709.756,"endTime":1710.056,"body":"all."},{"startTime":1710.211,"endTime":1714.011,"body":"a line of battery"},{"startTime":1710.211,"endTime":1714.011,"body":"produces like hundreds"},{"startTime":1714.021,"endTime":1714.351,"body":"Oh,"},{"startTime":1714.461,"endTime":1715.391,"body":"the few seconds"},{"startTime":1716.101,"endTime":1717.141,"body":"oh, absolutely."},{"startTime":1717.281,"endTime":1720.521,"body":"quicker than, uh,"},{"startTime":1717.281,"endTime":1720.521,"body":"machine gun in terms of"},{"startTime":1720.681,"endTime":1721.281,"body":"Oh, it's"},{"startTime":1721.521,"endTime":1724.278,"body":"So, here it's not a quality"},{"startTime":1721.521,"endTime":1724.278,"body":"control where you would take"},{"startTime":1724.278,"endTime":1725.538,"body":"every cell and put it into a"},{"startTime":1725.878,"endTime":1726.208,"body":"on,"},{"startTime":1726.498,"endTime":1727.698,"body":"say, oh, this cell is okay."},{"startTime":1727.698,"endTime":1730.738,"body":"No, we're talking about"},{"startTime":1727.698,"endTime":1730.738,"body":"it's a printing press."},{"startTime":1730.738,"endTime":1731.368,"body":"Literally it"},{"startTime":1731.488,"endTime":1731.788,"body":"it's a,"},{"startTime":1731.878,"endTime":1732.898,"body":"it is a printing."},{"startTime":1732.958,"endTime":1734.788,"body":"It looks like a printing press."},{"startTime":1735.058,"endTime":1737.038,"body":"There's roll to roll technology."},{"startTime":1737.038,"endTime":1738.298,"body":"You're absolutely right."},{"startTime":1738.298,"endTime":1741.788,"body":"Everybody should watch, go to"},{"startTime":1738.298,"endTime":1741.788,"body":"YouTube and take a look at a"},{"startTime":1741.788,"endTime":1745.598,"body":"battery manufacturing facility"},{"startTime":1741.788,"endTime":1745.598,"body":"in terms of how it's operating."},{"startTime":1745.618,"endTime":1745.928,"body":"So"},{"startTime":1746.018,"endTime":1746.588,"body":"And so"},{"startTime":1747.088,"endTime":1750.238,"body":"with manufacturing them,"},{"startTime":1747.088,"endTime":1750.238,"body":"I can imagine even a"},{"startTime":1750.238,"endTime":1752.008,"body":"small issues at random."},{"startTime":1752.008,"endTime":1753.028,"body":"Like every"},{"startTime":1753.248,"endTime":1753.878,"body":"yes,"},{"startTime":1754.108,"endTime":1756.328,"body":"you get the one"},{"startTime":1754.108,"endTime":1756.328,"body":"that goes wrong, but"},{"startTime":1756.338,"endTime":1757.058,"body":"yes,"},{"startTime":1757.364,"endTime":1757.951,"body":"five minutes."},{"startTime":1757.951,"endTime":1758.281,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1758.851,"endTime":1759.901,"body":"yes, no, no."},{"startTime":1759.901,"endTime":1762.301,"body":"You're you're so you're, you're"},{"startTime":1759.901,"endTime":1762.301,"body":"hitting the exact points."},{"startTime":1762.301,"endTime":1762.601,"body":"Is that."},{"startTime":1763.578,"endTime":1766.488,"body":"Defects can happen when you're"},{"startTime":1763.578,"endTime":1766.488,"body":"producing these types of"},{"startTime":1766.488,"endTime":1770.418,"body":"large numbers and even with"},{"startTime":1766.488,"endTime":1770.418,"body":"really good quality control,"},{"startTime":1770.418,"endTime":1773.028,"body":"some things will slip by"},{"startTime":1770.418,"endTime":1773.028,"body":"that may have a problem."},{"startTime":1773.058,"endTime":1773.478,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1773.718,"endTime":1777.201,"body":"Now, a particular cell might"},{"startTime":1773.718,"endTime":1777.201,"body":"have that type of defect in it."},{"startTime":1777.495,"endTime":1781.305,"body":"otherwise a cell, could go"},{"startTime":1777.495,"endTime":1781.305,"body":"into failure because of what"},{"startTime":1781.305,"endTime":1783.645,"body":"we talked about before the"},{"startTime":1781.305,"endTime":1783.645,"body":"battery management system."},{"startTime":1783.645,"endTime":1785.445,"body":"So one of the things that"},{"startTime":1783.645,"endTime":1785.445,"body":"the battery management"},{"startTime":1785.445,"endTime":1787.665,"body":"system is trying to do is"},{"startTime":1785.445,"endTime":1787.665,"body":"it's trying to balance, for"},{"startTime":1787.665,"endTime":1792.235,"body":"example, between all the"},{"startTime":1787.665,"endTime":1792.235,"body":"different cells, in a battery."},{"startTime":1792.235,"endTime":1795.595,"body":"So again, when we talk about"},{"startTime":1792.235,"endTime":1795.595,"body":"a battery, a battery is"},{"startTime":1795.685,"endTime":1798.415,"body":"comprised of cells and these"},{"startTime":1795.685,"endTime":1798.415,"body":"are individual cells and these"},{"startTime":1798.415,"endTime":1804.684,"body":"cells can be as small as, a"},{"startTime":1798.415,"endTime":1804.684,"body":"milli amp hour or so a hundred"},{"startTime":1804.684,"endTime":1808.927,"body":"million amp hour or so, or as"},{"startTime":1804.684,"endTime":1808.927,"body":"large as a hundred amp power."},{"startTime":1808.927,"endTime":1811.567,"body":"So, which, you know, we"},{"startTime":1808.927,"endTime":1811.567,"body":"we've looked at and tested."},{"startTime":1811.987,"endTime":1814.837,"body":". From that perspective,"},{"startTime":1811.987,"endTime":1814.837,"body":"there's a scale range in"},{"startTime":1814.837,"endTime":1817.837,"body":"terms of the energy storage"},{"startTime":1814.837,"endTime":1817.837,"body":"associated with a given cell."},{"startTime":1818.497,"endTime":1821.377,"body":"a large cell failing has"},{"startTime":1818.497,"endTime":1821.377,"body":"very different consequences"},{"startTime":1821.377,"endTime":1823.297,"body":"from a small cell failing."},{"startTime":1823.567,"endTime":1826.177,"body":"And now the battery management"},{"startTime":1823.567,"endTime":1826.177,"body":"system is trying to balance"},{"startTime":1826.177,"endTime":1829.657,"body":"between the different cells"},{"startTime":1826.177,"endTime":1829.657,"body":"and whether it's in parallel"},{"startTime":1829.657,"endTime":1831.187,"body":"or series configurations."},{"startTime":1831.517,"endTime":1835.197,"body":"And, there is the possibility"},{"startTime":1831.517,"endTime":1835.197,"body":"for example, that because the"},{"startTime":1835.197,"endTime":1839.187,"body":"cells are not identical, that"},{"startTime":1835.197,"endTime":1839.187,"body":"you might over time overcharge"},{"startTime":1839.217,"endTime":1843.987,"body":"over discharge, any particular"},{"startTime":1839.217,"endTime":1843.987,"body":"cell in the string of cells"},{"startTime":1843.987,"endTime":1847.617,"body":"that comprise the battery and"},{"startTime":1843.987,"endTime":1847.617,"body":"that could lead to failures."},{"startTime":1847.617,"endTime":1849.717,"body":"And those failures could be,"},{"startTime":1847.617,"endTime":1849.717,"body":"for example, something like an"},{"startTime":1849.717,"endTime":1850.947,"body":"overcharge that might occur."},{"startTime":1851.337,"endTime":1853.317,"body":"And so in terms of the"},{"startTime":1851.337,"endTime":1853.317,"body":"overcharge that might be"},{"startTime":1853.317,"endTime":1857.054,"body":"occurring, for lithium ion"},{"startTime":1853.317,"endTime":1857.054,"body":"cells, you can get plating of"},{"startTime":1857.054,"endTime":1859.994,"body":"the lithium metal because it's"},{"startTime":1857.054,"endTime":1859.994,"body":"a transport issue, such a tray."},{"startTime":1860.024,"endTime":1864.674,"body":"So transport limitations of"},{"startTime":1860.024,"endTime":1864.674,"body":"the ability of intercalated."},{"startTime":1865.424,"endTime":1869.444,"body":"Lithium ions into these active"},{"startTime":1865.424,"endTime":1869.444,"body":"materials could cause something"},{"startTime":1869.444,"endTime":1872.984,"body":"like a plating process to"},{"startTime":1869.444,"endTime":1872.984,"body":"occur as this lithium played in"},{"startTime":1872.984,"endTime":1874.694,"body":"this lithium metal occurring."},{"startTime":1874.694,"endTime":1878.084,"body":"For example, on the"},{"startTime":1874.694,"endTime":1878.084,"body":"anode side, then you"},{"startTime":1878.084,"endTime":1881.634,"body":"would get the possibility"},{"startTime":1878.084,"endTime":1881.634,"body":"of dendrites forming."},{"startTime":1881.684,"endTime":1883.994,"body":"And these are again,"},{"startTime":1881.684,"endTime":1883.994,"body":"just whiskers."},{"startTime":1883.994,"endTime":1886.964,"body":"If you think about them like"},{"startTime":1883.994,"endTime":1886.964,"body":"that metal whiskers that"},{"startTime":1886.964,"endTime":1891.074,"body":"could penetrate across the"},{"startTime":1886.964,"endTime":1891.074,"body":"separator, which is trying"},{"startTime":1891.074,"endTime":1895.417,"body":"to keep the, the electrical"},{"startTime":1891.074,"endTime":1895.417,"body":"charges away from each other,"},{"startTime":1895.417,"endTime":1897.697,"body":"if you will, from certain"},{"startTime":1895.417,"endTime":1897.697,"body":"having sort of spontaneous"},{"startTime":1897.697,"endTime":1901.237,"body":"discharge and then that could"},{"startTime":1897.697,"endTime":1901.237,"body":"lead to a short circuit."},{"startTime":1901.75,"endTime":1906.02,"body":"so operationally one could"},{"startTime":1901.75,"endTime":1906.02,"body":"get a failure to occur in"},{"startTime":1906.02,"endTime":1907.34,"body":"terms of manufacturing."},{"startTime":1907.43,"endTime":1910.52,"body":"One could imagine that there's"},{"startTime":1907.43,"endTime":1910.52,"body":"a failure that occurs and"},{"startTime":1910.52,"endTime":1914.36,"body":"certainly in terms of mechanical"},{"startTime":1910.52,"endTime":1914.36,"body":"damage, whether it's a belt"},{"startTime":1914.39,"endTime":1920.227,"body":"bending process, Crash of a"},{"startTime":1914.39,"endTime":1920.227,"body":"vehicle that causes a mechanical"},{"startTime":1920.227,"endTime":1924.337,"body":"failure and, that bending,"},{"startTime":1920.227,"endTime":1924.337,"body":"for example, puts elements the"},{"startTime":1924.337,"endTime":1928.327,"body":"anode closer to the cathode"},{"startTime":1924.337,"endTime":1928.327,"body":"or tears, the separator, or"},{"startTime":1928.567,"endTime":1929.917,"body":"punctures, the separator."},{"startTime":1930.217,"endTime":1934.894,"body":"And then you can have a short"},{"startTime":1930.217,"endTime":1934.894,"body":"that's formed because of this"},{"startTime":1934.894,"endTime":1936.514,"body":"mechanical failure process."},{"startTime":1936.93,"endTime":1938.76,"body":"and then of course there's"},{"startTime":1936.93,"endTime":1938.76,"body":"environmental failure."},{"startTime":1938.76,"endTime":1941.67,"body":"So we, again talk about"},{"startTime":1938.76,"endTime":1941.67,"body":"the fact that fires occur."},{"startTime":1941.7,"endTime":1944.86,"body":"We know the fires occur, so,"},{"startTime":1941.7,"endTime":1944.86,"body":"a high temperature environment"},{"startTime":1945.25,"endTime":1949.96,"body":"could lead to the degradation"},{"startTime":1945.25,"endTime":1949.96,"body":"of whether it's the separator,"},{"startTime":1949.962,"endTime":1954.997,"body":"within the particular cell or"},{"startTime":1949.962,"endTime":1954.997,"body":"two, reactions occurring, with."},{"startTime":1955.499,"endTime":1959.455,"body":"The, cell itself, and those"},{"startTime":1955.499,"endTime":1959.455,"body":"could lead to this sort of"},{"startTime":1959.455,"endTime":1963.175,"body":"cascading failure of all"},{"startTime":1959.455,"endTime":1963.175,"body":"these different reactions."},{"startTime":1963.175,"endTime":1965.515,"body":"And that's the process"},{"startTime":1963.175,"endTime":1965.515,"body":"that we talk about in"},{"startTime":1965.515,"endTime":1966.745,"body":"terms of thermal runaway."},{"startTime":1966.955,"endTime":1970.735,"body":"So a single cell"},{"startTime":1966.955,"endTime":1970.735,"body":"failure will occur."},{"startTime":1971.695,"endTime":1974.665,"body":"Single cells will fail"},{"startTime":1971.695,"endTime":1974.665,"body":"from any number of reasons."},{"startTime":1974.995,"endTime":1978.1,"body":"And as you say, The issue"},{"startTime":1974.995,"endTime":1978.1,"body":"becomes what is management of"},{"startTime":1978.1,"endTime":1979.93,"body":"single cell failure look like?"},{"startTime":1980.22,"endTime":1982.95,"body":", and there are design"},{"startTime":1980.22,"endTime":1982.95,"body":"professionals who are"},{"startTime":1982.95,"endTime":1987.54,"body":"increasingly tasked to"},{"startTime":1982.95,"endTime":1987.54,"body":"understand how to manage single"},{"startTime":1987.54,"endTime":1991.47,"body":"cell failures, either through"},{"startTime":1987.54,"endTime":1991.47,"body":"a heat transfer mechanisms."},{"startTime":1991.937,"endTime":1996.284,"body":"so, what kind of flows would we"},{"startTime":1991.937,"endTime":1996.284,"body":"direct around a single cell or"},{"startTime":1996.284,"endTime":1997.494,"body":"around the arrangement of cells?"},{"startTime":1997.494,"endTime":1999.154,"body":"So that if a  single"},{"startTime":1997.494,"endTime":1999.154,"body":"cell failure occurred,"},{"startTime":1999.154,"endTime":2000.174,"body":"it doesn't cascade."},{"startTime":2000.584,"endTime":2002.204,"body":", in terms of"},{"startTime":2000.584,"endTime":2002.204,"body":"compartmentalization,"},{"startTime":2002.204,"endTime":2002.894,"body":"as you mentioned."},{"startTime":2002.894,"endTime":2006.314,"body":"So are there whether it's"},{"startTime":2002.894,"endTime":2006.314,"body":"facing materials or other"},{"startTime":2006.314,"endTime":2010.244,"body":"types of materials that one"},{"startTime":2006.314,"endTime":2010.244,"body":"could layer into the systems"},{"startTime":2010.244,"endTime":2011.954,"body":"to manage the heat transfer?"},{"startTime":2012.704,"endTime":2014.894,"body":"Now that management heat"},{"startTime":2012.704,"endTime":2014.894,"body":"transfer is complex because"},{"startTime":2014.894,"endTime":2017.654,"body":"as we said before, just"},{"startTime":2014.894,"endTime":2017.654,"body":"normal cycling of a cell"},{"startTime":2017.654,"endTime":2019.094,"body":"causes the cell to heat up."},{"startTime":2019.274,"endTime":2022.674,"body":"So there is you think of"},{"startTime":2019.274,"endTime":2022.674,"body":"it as a diode on under"},{"startTime":2022.674,"endTime":2025.434,"body":"certain conditions, under"},{"startTime":2022.674,"endTime":2025.434,"body":"normal operating conditions."},{"startTime":2025.434,"endTime":2026.784,"body":"I'm going to get"},{"startTime":2025.434,"endTime":2026.784,"body":"heat out of the cell."},{"startTime":2027.425,"endTime":2030.935,"body":"and manage the overall system"},{"startTime":2027.425,"endTime":2030.935,"body":"in terms of that heat transfer"},{"startTime":2031.235,"endTime":2034.145,"body":"under abnormal operation"},{"startTime":2031.235,"endTime":2034.145,"body":"conditions for a single cell,"},{"startTime":2034.175,"endTime":2037.385,"body":"I may want to isolate that"},{"startTime":2034.175,"endTime":2037.385,"body":"cell, so I will let that cell"},{"startTime":2037.385,"endTime":2040.205,"body":"burn away, but I don't want it"},{"startTime":2037.385,"endTime":2040.205,"body":"to cascade to the other cells."},{"startTime":2040.385,"endTime":2044.185,"body":"So,  people and organizations"},{"startTime":2040.385,"endTime":2044.185,"body":"are designing, developing,"},{"startTime":2044.185,"endTime":2047.695,"body":"I should say design tools"},{"startTime":2044.185,"endTime":2047.695,"body":"and it's not just CFD."},{"startTime":2047.695,"endTime":2049.315,"body":"It could be resistance network."},{"startTime":2049.345,"endTime":2053.305,"body":"It could be other types of tools"},{"startTime":2049.345,"endTime":2053.305,"body":"that would now be increasingly"},{"startTime":2053.305,"endTime":2058.149,"body":"used to design the safety"},{"startTime":2053.305,"endTime":2058.149,"body":"systems and protection systems."},{"startTime":2058.299,"endTime":2060.489,"body":"Oftentimes we think about it"},{"startTime":2058.299,"endTime":2060.489,"body":"really as a thermal protection"},{"startTime":2060.489,"endTime":2062.559,"body":"systems for batteries."},{"startTime":2062.889,"endTime":2063.249,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2063.369,"endTime":2066.279,"body":"So batteries, single"},{"startTime":2063.369,"endTime":2066.279,"body":"cells can fail."},{"startTime":2066.819,"endTime":2069.909,"body":"There are design professionals,"},{"startTime":2066.819,"endTime":2069.909,"body":"whether it's an electric"},{"startTime":2069.909,"endTime":2074.649,"body":"vehicle company or at a,"},{"startTime":2069.909,"endTime":2074.649,"body":"an integrator developing"},{"startTime":2074.799,"endTime":2080.789,"body":"for, onsite protection at a"},{"startTime":2074.799,"endTime":2080.789,"body":"utility or at a big box, Uh,"},{"startTime":2080.819,"endTime":2082.529,"body":"retail outlet, et cetera."},{"startTime":2082.758,"endTime":2084.192,"body":"these protection systems."},{"startTime":2084.522,"endTime":2089.415,"body":"Now having said that hopefully"},{"startTime":2084.522,"endTime":2089.415,"body":"those protection systems are"},{"startTime":2089.415,"endTime":2094.335,"body":"still able to manage single"},{"startTime":2089.415,"endTime":2094.335,"body":"or two or three cell failures."},{"startTime":2094.762,"endTime":2097.135,"body":"I would say that there's"},{"startTime":2094.762,"endTime":2097.135,"body":"a push there had been a"},{"startTime":2097.135,"endTime":2101.035,"body":"push to going to larger"},{"startTime":2097.135,"endTime":2101.035,"body":"cell capacities because of"},{"startTime":2101.035,"endTime":2104.815,"body":"economies of scale and for"},{"startTime":2101.035,"endTime":2104.815,"body":"all sorts of good reasons,"},{"startTime":2104.865,"endTime":2105.825,"body":", for electric vehicles."},{"startTime":2105.825,"endTime":2108.949,"body":"So people were saying, okay,"},{"startTime":2105.825,"endTime":2108.949,"body":"well, let's go with, 94 amp hour"},{"startTime":2108.969,"endTime":2111.369,"body":"cells or larger capacity cells."},{"startTime":2111.879,"endTime":2115.419,"body":"Those are harder to manage"},{"startTime":2111.879,"endTime":2115.419,"body":"both thermally and otherwise"},{"startTime":2115.419,"endTime":2116.499,"body":"in terms of failure."},{"startTime":2116.769,"endTime":2120.359,"body":"So in some sense, we know there"},{"startTime":2116.769,"endTime":2120.359,"body":"are vehicle companies, a lot of"},{"startTime":2120.359,"endTime":2123.869,"body":"them came out of Silicon valley"},{"startTime":2120.359,"endTime":2123.869,"body":"that leverage what happened."},{"startTime":2124.604,"endTime":2127.364,"body":"Laptops and portable"},{"startTime":2124.604,"endTime":2127.364,"body":"electronics that have much"},{"startTime":2127.514,"endTime":2129.644,"body":"smaller capacity cells."},{"startTime":2130.027,"endTime":2133.337,"body":"and so these are whether"},{"startTime":2130.027,"endTime":2133.337,"body":"it's 18650, 2170."},{"startTime":2133.477,"endTime":2136.897,"body":"So there are the smaller"},{"startTime":2133.477,"endTime":2136.897,"body":"cell capacities and different"},{"startTime":2136.897,"endTime":2140.767,"body":"formats that other companies"},{"startTime":2136.897,"endTime":2140.767,"body":"have said, well, you know what?"},{"startTime":2140.797,"endTime":2142.957,"body":"We can manage and"},{"startTime":2140.797,"endTime":2142.957,"body":"control these better."},{"startTime":2143.257,"endTime":2145.827,"body":"Now there challenges in"},{"startTime":2143.257,"endTime":2145.827,"body":"terms of, you know, having"},{"startTime":2145.827,"endTime":2147.137,"body":"so many small cells."},{"startTime":2147.137,"endTime":2150.258,"body":"So there's probably some"},{"startTime":2147.137,"endTime":2150.258,"body":"happy medium that, EV."},{"startTime":2150.258,"endTime":2152.777,"body":".companies and others are"},{"startTime":2150.258,"endTime":2152.777,"body":"going to think about in terms"},{"startTime":2152.777,"endTime":2156.837,"body":"of, dense enough and high"},{"startTime":2152.777,"endTime":2156.837,"body":"enough energy density and"},{"startTime":2157.017,"endTime":2159.897,"body":"large enough cells, but not"},{"startTime":2157.017,"endTime":2159.897,"body":"too large, that it becomes"},{"startTime":2159.897,"endTime":2161.367,"body":"a control issue later on."},{"startTime":2161.727,"endTime":2162.027,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2162.117,"endTime":2167.104,"body":"So landscape wise, there has to"},{"startTime":2162.117,"endTime":2167.104,"body":"be this idea then that there is"},{"startTime":2167.104,"endTime":2172.744,"body":"some sweet spot in terms of size"},{"startTime":2167.104,"endTime":2172.744,"body":"of cells that can be controlled"},{"startTime":2172.744,"endTime":2175.774,"body":"so that if and when a failure"},{"startTime":2172.744,"endTime":2175.774,"body":"occurs, it can be managed."},{"startTime":2175.774,"endTime":2177.454,"body":"So it doesn't cascade"},{"startTime":2175.774,"endTime":2177.454,"body":"and propagate."},{"startTime":2178.624,"endTime":2183.587,"body":"Now I'm interested in that,"},{"startTime":2178.624,"endTime":2183.587,"body":"but again, I say, well, if they"},{"startTime":2183.587,"endTime":2188.477,"body":"don't do their job perfectly in"},{"startTime":2183.587,"endTime":2188.477,"body":"quotes, um, we're still going"},{"startTime":2188.477,"endTime":2190.277,"body":"to get larger scale propagation."},{"startTime":2190.307,"endTime":2193.757,"body":"And when we get larger scale"},{"startTime":2190.307,"endTime":2193.757,"body":"propagation, we can get a"},{"startTime":2193.757,"endTime":2195.167,"body":"whole module that fails."},{"startTime":2195.827,"endTime":2197.327,"body":"What are the impacts of that?"},{"startTime":2197.657,"endTime":2199.457,"body":"Now it's kind of interesting."},{"startTime":2199.457,"endTime":2201.397,"body":"So, , probably you"},{"startTime":2199.457,"endTime":2201.397,"body":"say the same thing."},{"startTime":2201.424,"endTime":2204.064,"body":"When I teach my fire science"},{"startTime":2201.424,"endTime":2204.064,"body":"class, one of the first"},{"startTime":2204.064,"endTime":2206.754,"body":"things we talk about is"},{"startTime":2204.064,"endTime":2206.754,"body":"that the thing that sort of"},{"startTime":2206.934,"endTime":2211.014,"body":"kills people most in fires"},{"startTime":2206.934,"endTime":2211.014,"body":"is not the heat and fire."},{"startTime":2211.014,"endTime":2211.704,"body":"It's a smoke."},{"startTime":2212.454,"endTime":2217.186,"body":"So, I think that in some"},{"startTime":2212.454,"endTime":2217.186,"body":"sense, we overthink the thermal"},{"startTime":2217.186,"endTime":2220.966,"body":"issues associated with battery"},{"startTime":2217.186,"endTime":2220.966,"body":"failures and under think."},{"startTime":2221.658,"endTime":2227.268,"body":"Toxicological impacts of it"},{"startTime":2221.658,"endTime":2227.268,"body":"or the cascade of battery"},{"startTime":2227.268,"endTime":2229.788,"body":"failures to other fuel packets."},{"startTime":2229.908,"endTime":2233.148,"body":"And then to really the thing"},{"startTime":2229.908,"endTime":2233.148,"body":"that we're afraid of, or I'm"},{"startTime":2233.148,"endTime":2234.348,"body":"afraid of, which is the smoke."},{"startTime":2234.678,"endTime":2237.888,"body":"So I think that connecting"},{"startTime":2234.678,"endTime":2237.888,"body":"the dots between, okay,"},{"startTime":2238.188,"endTime":2241.908,"body":"cell failure, what gases"},{"startTime":2238.188,"endTime":2241.908,"body":"are released, what are the"},{"startTime":2242.028,"endTime":2243.888,"body":"issues in terms of toxicity?"},{"startTime":2244.458,"endTime":2247.728,"body":"How would this impede people in"},{"startTime":2244.458,"endTime":2247.728,"body":"terms of egress or otherwise,"},{"startTime":2248.298,"endTime":2250.878,"body":"what are the secondary"},{"startTime":2248.298,"endTime":2250.878,"body":"fuel packages that could be"},{"startTime":2250.878,"endTime":2252.708,"body":"involved in this failure?"},{"startTime":2253.158,"endTime":2255.168,"body":"How do we understand"},{"startTime":2253.158,"endTime":2255.168,"body":"that cascade?"},{"startTime":2255.228,"endTime":2258.108,"body":"What are the ignition"},{"startTime":2255.228,"endTime":2258.108,"body":"issues and how do we think"},{"startTime":2258.108,"endTime":2261.048,"body":"about what the life safety"},{"startTime":2258.108,"endTime":2261.048,"body":"implications of that might be?"},{"startTime":2261.348,"endTime":2265.865,"body":"That's I think that's where"},{"startTime":2261.348,"endTime":2265.865,"body":"I want to be clear and really"},{"startTime":2265.865,"endTime":2267.515,"body":"sort of hammer on it and, and."},{"startTime":2268.101,"endTime":2269.327,"body":"that's that's a strong one, man."},{"startTime":2269.357,"endTime":2270.257,"body":"That's that's a good one."},{"startTime":2270.657,"endTime":2271.529,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":2272.309,"endTime":2274.84,"body":"that's probably the biggest"},{"startTime":2272.309,"endTime":2274.84,"body":"challenge I had when I"},{"startTime":2274.84,"endTime":2278.92,"body":"started playing with, electric"},{"startTime":2274.84,"endTime":2278.92,"body":"vehicle fires and trying to"},{"startTime":2278.92,"endTime":2282.55,"body":"answer the doubts of people"},{"startTime":2278.92,"endTime":2282.55,"body":"related about the car parks"},{"startTime":2282.55,"endTime":2284.86,"body":"and electric fires goes."},{"startTime":2284.89,"endTime":2287.467,"body":"I, when I'm talking"},{"startTime":2284.89,"endTime":2287.467,"body":"about, traditional"},{"startTime":2287.467,"endTime":2288.937,"body":"fires, if you can call"},{"startTime":2289.007,"endTime":2289.247,"body":"um,"},{"startTime":2289.267,"endTime":2292.067,"body":"that you have this,"},{"startTime":2289.267,"endTime":2292.067,"body":"let's say rule of thumb,"},{"startTime":2292.172,"endTime":2294.897,"body":"tenability criteria,    uh,"},{"startTime":2292.172,"endTime":2294.897,"body":"visibility of 10 meters"},{"startTime":2294.897,"endTime":2296.427,"body":"is let's say acceptable."},{"startTime":2296.427,"endTime":2300.3,"body":"You know, what amount of"},{"startTime":2296.427,"endTime":2300.3,"body":"suit that, is, you know, the"},{"startTime":2300.3,"endTime":2301.74,"body":"soot yield of your source."},{"startTime":2302.22,"endTime":2303.21,"body":"can figure that out."},{"startTime":2303.21,"endTime":2306.9,"body":"You can find the plausible"},{"startTime":2303.21,"endTime":2306.9,"body":"answer, if I want to do,"},{"startTime":2306.924,"endTime":2312.519,"body":"electrical fire,  One thing"},{"startTime":2306.924,"endTime":2312.519,"body":"that I noticed is they will"},{"startTime":2312.519,"endTime":2317.889,"body":"have a completely different,"},{"startTime":2312.519,"endTime":2317.889,"body":"uh, heat release rate curve"},{"startTime":2317.889,"endTime":2320.889,"body":"and correct me if I wrong,"},{"startTime":2317.889,"endTime":2320.889,"body":"but it looks like not,"},{"startTime":2320.932,"endTime":2325.445,"body":"exponential is like logarithmic"},{"startTime":2320.932,"endTime":2325.445,"body":"is like very, very sharp."},{"startTime":2325.475,"endTime":2328.885,"body":"It's not a huge release"},{"startTime":2325.475,"endTime":2328.885,"body":"and suddenly dresses by,"},{"startTime":2328.885,"endTime":2330.215,"body":"by a factor of 10 or 20."},{"startTime":2330.215,"endTime":2332.205,"body":"That, that's what I saw,"},{"startTime":2330.215,"endTime":2332.205,"body":"from the measurements."},{"startTime":2332.205,"endTime":2333.975,"body":"And that's what you see"},{"startTime":2332.205,"endTime":2333.975,"body":"in videos when there's"},{"startTime":2333.975,"endTime":2335.775,"body":"like nothing, nothing,"},{"startTime":2333.975,"endTime":2335.775,"body":"nothing, and the huge flame."},{"startTime":2336.189,"endTime":2337.525,"body":"Uh, so we figured that out."},{"startTime":2337.945,"endTime":2341.539,"body":"And we can in a way account"},{"startTime":2337.945,"endTime":2341.539,"body":"for that by, making a very"},{"startTime":2341.539,"endTime":2344.649,"body":"quick, uh, heat release rate,"},{"startTime":2341.539,"endTime":2344.649,"body":"in our simulations, if we"},{"startTime":2344.649,"endTime":2348.159,"body":"traditionally gave four minutes"},{"startTime":2344.649,"endTime":2348.159,"body":"of fire growth to reach a one"},{"startTime":2348.159,"endTime":2352.539,"body":"and a half megawatts of a car"},{"startTime":2348.159,"endTime":2352.539,"body":"simulate a car fire in the car"},{"startTime":2352.539,"endTime":2356.679,"body":"park, traditionally, as we did"},{"startTime":2352.539,"endTime":2356.679,"body":"in past on TNO experimental"},{"startTime":2356.679,"endTime":2359.972,"body":"results from many years ago,"},{"startTime":2356.679,"endTime":2359.972,"body":"for electric vehicle, okay,"},{"startTime":2359.972,"endTime":2362.192,"body":"let's start the simulation"},{"startTime":2359.972,"endTime":2362.192,"body":"with one megawatt initially."},{"startTime":2362.222,"endTime":2365.612,"body":"Like goes from zero to"},{"startTime":2362.222,"endTime":2365.612,"body":"one megawatt immediately."},{"startTime":2366.502,"endTime":2367.702,"body":"course I'm making an error."},{"startTime":2367.732,"endTime":2371.332,"body":"Of course I'm far away"},{"startTime":2367.732,"endTime":2371.332,"body":"a reality, but who in"},{"startTime":2371.332,"endTime":2372.315,"body":"fire science is not."},{"startTime":2372.505,"endTime":2376.289,"body":"so, but yeah, but then"},{"startTime":2372.505,"endTime":2376.289,"body":"that's a way to solve it."},{"startTime":2376.289,"endTime":2376.559,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2376.769,"endTime":2380.319,"body":"But then again, emissions,"},{"startTime":2376.769,"endTime":2380.319,"body":"like do I account what's my."},{"startTime":2381.12,"endTime":2384.929,"body":"What's my, I didn't, I can't"},{"startTime":2381.12,"endTime":2384.929,"body":"even call it a soot yiel"},{"startTime":2385.009,"endTime":2386.539,"body":"what's my smoke yield."},{"startTime":2387.129,"endTime":2387.489,"body":"yeah,"},{"startTime":2387.519,"endTime":2388.779,"body":"I think that's important."},{"startTime":2389.389,"endTime":2390.949,"body":"And, and, how bad is that?"},{"startTime":2391.189,"endTime":2391.669,"body":"Am I still"},{"startTime":2391.779,"endTime":2392.169,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2392.219,"endTime":2395.912,"body":"10 meters visibility or, will"},{"startTime":2392.219,"endTime":2395.912,"body":"I be very dead seeing for"},{"startTime":2395.912,"endTime":2397.682,"body":"these 10 meters at this point?"},{"startTime":2398.119,"endTime":2403.252,"body":"that so frightening because"},{"startTime":2398.119,"endTime":2403.252,"body":"I, I don't even have a good"},{"startTime":2403.312,"endTime":2405.472,"body":"idea how to make it up."},{"startTime":2405.712,"endTime":2407.992,"body":"Like it did with the you know,"},{"startTime":2408.152,"endTime":2409.222,"body":"I love that."},{"startTime":2409.655,"endTime":2410.075,"body":"Work."},{"startTime":2410.075,"endTime":2413.559,"body":"That's been, the RISE folks have"},{"startTime":2410.075,"endTime":2413.559,"body":"done in terms of the battery"},{"startTime":2413.559,"endTime":2415.899,"body":"space and vehicle fire space."},{"startTime":2416.169,"endTime":2419.469,"body":"So when the shipboard fire"},{"startTime":2416.169,"endTime":2419.469,"body":"just a curve, one of the things"},{"startTime":2419.469,"endTime":2423.045,"body":"I wanted to talk to about"},{"startTime":2419.469,"endTime":2423.045,"body":"to my class about was, um,"},{"startTime":2423.105,"endTime":2427.605,"body":"well, let's look at the heat"},{"startTime":2423.105,"endTime":2427.605,"body":"release rate from an ICE versus"},{"startTime":2427.695,"endTime":2429.675,"body":"a, , battery electric vehicle."},{"startTime":2430.155,"endTime":2432.789,"body":"And when we looked at"},{"startTime":2430.155,"endTime":2432.789,"body":"the data sets and I"},{"startTime":2432.789,"endTime":2433.869,"body":"said, okay, let's here."},{"startTime":2434.119,"endTime":2436.089,"body":"I'm showing you the"},{"startTime":2434.119,"endTime":2436.089,"body":"heat release rates."},{"startTime":2436.43,"endTime":2440.239,"body":"they were all between say"},{"startTime":2436.43,"endTime":2440.239,"body":"five and seven megawatt peaks."},{"startTime":2440.629,"endTime":2444.468,"body":"And I said, okay, tell me which"},{"startTime":2440.629,"endTime":2444.468,"body":"one you're more concerned about."},{"startTime":2444.828,"endTime":2447.138,"body":"And we looked at it and we"},{"startTime":2444.828,"endTime":2447.138,"body":"looked at it and we looked at"},{"startTime":2447.138,"endTime":2450.281,"body":"it and we thought, yeah, they"},{"startTime":2447.138,"endTime":2450.281,"body":"look a hell of a lot of like,"},{"startTime":2450.311,"endTime":2453.641,"body":"you know, it's very difficult"},{"startTime":2450.311,"endTime":2453.641,"body":"to discern sort of the one"},{"startTime":2453.641,"endTime":2455.051,"body":"that I'd be more afraid of."},{"startTime":2455.441,"endTime":2460.625,"body":"And so when you think about all"},{"startTime":2455.441,"endTime":2460.625,"body":"the fuel involved in a vehicle,"},{"startTime":2461.196,"endTime":2461.706,"body":"um,"},{"startTime":2462.111,"endTime":2462.651,"body":"lot of stuff."},{"startTime":2462.681,"endTime":2462.891,"body":"That's"},{"startTime":2462.891,"endTime":2466.971,"body":"not necessarily battery and"},{"startTime":2462.891,"endTime":2466.971,"body":"there's lot of stuff to be"},{"startTime":2466.971,"endTime":2469.641,"body":"afraid of that has nothing"},{"startTime":2466.971,"endTime":2469.641,"body":"to do with the battery."},{"startTime":2469.821,"endTime":2473.091,"body":"So now the question in my"},{"startTime":2469.821,"endTime":2473.091,"body":"mind then becomes, okay."},{"startTime":2473.181,"endTime":2474.951,"body":"And I like to think"},{"startTime":2473.181,"endTime":2474.951,"body":"about it this way."},{"startTime":2475.301,"endTime":2477.191,"body":", we all know that smoke is bad."},{"startTime":2477.251,"endTime":2480.431,"body":"Smoke is bad when fires"},{"startTime":2477.251,"endTime":2480.431,"body":"occur, but are some"},{"startTime":2480.431,"endTime":2482.081,"body":"smoke situation worse."},{"startTime":2482.291,"endTime":2485.381,"body":"So are there things that"},{"startTime":2482.291,"endTime":2485.381,"body":"are being produced toxicity"},{"startTime":2485.381,"endTime":2488.711,"body":"wise than might be worse"},{"startTime":2485.381,"endTime":2488.711,"body":"because there is a battery"},{"startTime":2488.711,"endTime":2490.931,"body":"involved and here's the thing."},{"startTime":2491.081,"endTime":2493.241,"body":"I don't know what the"},{"startTime":2491.081,"endTime":2493.241,"body":"answer to that question"},{"startTime":2493.241,"endTime":2494.381,"body":"is, but I'd like to know."},{"startTime":2494.411,"endTime":2498.508,"body":"And that's what I'd like to put"},{"startTime":2494.411,"endTime":2498.508,"body":"effort into and it's, it impacts"},{"startTime":2498.568,"endTime":2503.138,"body":"obviously, occupants, but it"},{"startTime":2498.568,"endTime":2503.138,"body":"really dramatically also impacts"},{"startTime":2503.528,"endTime":2507.698,"body":"the fire service because when"},{"startTime":2503.528,"endTime":2507.698,"body":"they're fighting these fires,"},{"startTime":2508.538,"endTime":2510.328,"body":"they are intimately involved."},{"startTime":2510.388,"endTime":2512.828,"body":"So while yes, but"},{"startTime":2510.388,"endTime":2512.828,"body":"they're on S CBAs."},{"startTime":2512.858,"endTime":2513.578,"body":"They're on air."},{"startTime":2514.058,"endTime":2515.198,"body":"Yes they are."},{"startTime":2515.348,"endTime":2516.295,"body":"But when you go."},{"startTime":2516.736,"endTime":2520.096,"body":"less than a hundred meters"},{"startTime":2516.736,"endTime":2520.096,"body":"away, you see all sorts of"},{"startTime":2520.096,"endTime":2523.696,"body":"firefighters congregating"},{"startTime":2520.096,"endTime":2523.696,"body":"around equipment and"},{"startTime":2523.696,"endTime":2527.956,"body":"otherwise without air packs"},{"startTime":2523.696,"endTime":2527.956,"body":"on what's happening to them."},{"startTime":2528.226,"endTime":2531.946,"body":", are there issues in terms of"},{"startTime":2528.226,"endTime":2531.946,"body":"the, over the, is there change?"},{"startTime":2531.976,"endTime":2533.836,"body":"I don't, I'm not saying"},{"startTime":2531.976,"endTime":2533.836,"body":"there is, is there a change"},{"startTime":2533.836,"endTime":2537.076,"body":"in the overall toxicity of"},{"startTime":2533.836,"endTime":2537.076,"body":"the smoke because of the"},{"startTime":2537.076,"endTime":2539.086,"body":"amount of batteries that"},{"startTime":2537.076,"endTime":2539.086,"body":"have been involved in it?"},{"startTime":2539.406,"endTime":2542.436,"body":"In the U S we just saw an"},{"startTime":2539.406,"endTime":2542.436,"body":"incident, we've seen a few"},{"startTime":2542.436,"endTime":2544.926,"body":"incidents now, and we've seen"},{"startTime":2542.436,"endTime":2544.926,"body":"it around the world where,"},{"startTime":2544.938,"endTime":2547.84,"body":"there have been, evacuation"},{"startTime":2544.938,"endTime":2547.84,"body":"orders that have been placed"},{"startTime":2547.84,"endTime":2552.113,"body":"when fires that included"},{"startTime":2547.84,"endTime":2552.113,"body":"large amounts of lithium-ion"},{"startTime":2552.143,"endTime":2553.57,"body":"batteries were occurred."},{"startTime":2553.87,"endTime":2556.41,"body":"And all those required"},{"startTime":2553.87,"endTime":2556.41,"body":"is it really just, is it"},{"startTime":2556.47,"endTime":2557.52,"body":"essentially a regular."},{"startTime":2558.615,"endTime":2563.118,"body":"Or is there something much worse"},{"startTime":2558.615,"endTime":2563.118,"body":"or different about those, plumes"},{"startTime":2563.148,"endTime":2564.378,"body":"that we need to think about?"},{"startTime":2564.378,"endTime":2567.318,"body":"So, there's so many different"},{"startTime":2564.378,"endTime":2567.318,"body":"aspects of this, and again,"},{"startTime":2567.318,"endTime":2571.932,"body":"we're not trying to say that"},{"startTime":2567.318,"endTime":2571.932,"body":"no batteries intrinsically"},{"startTime":2571.932,"endTime":2574.842,"body":"and just are such a bad"},{"startTime":2571.932,"endTime":2574.842,"body":"technology and we should not"},{"startTime":2574.842,"endTime":2578.382,"body":"be going in this direction,"},{"startTime":2574.842,"endTime":2578.382,"body":"but it's a clarification."},{"startTime":2578.382,"endTime":2582.462,"body":"So we understand better when"},{"startTime":2578.382,"endTime":2582.462,"body":"they can be used, how they can"},{"startTime":2582.462,"endTime":2585.162,"body":"be used and how to improve it."},{"startTime":2585.402,"endTime":2587.522,"body":"And just talk about, just,"},{"startTime":2585.402,"endTime":2587.522,"body":"you know, I'm rambling."},{"startTime":2587.522,"endTime":2588.842,"body":"I'm sorry, it's this"},{"startTime":2589.067,"endTime":2590.237,"body":"that's the point of a podcast."},{"startTime":2590.802,"endTime":2591.042,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2591.042,"endTime":2594.745,"body":"We're, we're at a pub and, um,"},{"startTime":2591.042,"endTime":2594.745,"body":"I'm drinking my coffee and just"},{"startTime":2595.195,"endTime":2597.588,"body":"given an opportunity, ramble."},{"startTime":2597.648,"endTime":2601.308,"body":"Um, but you, you think about"},{"startTime":2597.648,"endTime":2601.308,"body":"something you think about"},{"startTime":2601.338,"endTime":2604.115,"body":"something else that I, I"},{"startTime":2601.338,"endTime":2604.115,"body":"think that, there has been a"},{"startTime":2604.115,"endTime":2608.495,"body":"lot of fear about which is a"},{"startTime":2604.115,"endTime":2608.495,"body":"flame retardant chemistries."},{"startTime":2608.885,"endTime":2609.305,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2609.665,"endTime":2611.195,"body":"So flame retardant."},{"startTime":2611.46,"endTime":2615.79,"body":"have been, you know, in quotes,"},{"startTime":2611.46,"endTime":2615.79,"body":"thrown under the bus as, and"},{"startTime":2615.79,"endTime":2620.38,"body":"some of your guests on this"},{"startTime":2615.79,"endTime":2620.38,"body":"podcast hate flame retards."},{"startTime":2620.39,"endTime":2621.67,"body":"I'm not going to name any names."},{"startTime":2622.28,"endTime":2624.83,"body":"but they say that they"},{"startTime":2622.28,"endTime":2624.83,"body":"don't really do anything."},{"startTime":2624.83,"endTime":2629.59,"body":"And for the, the harm that they"},{"startTime":2624.83,"endTime":2629.59,"body":"potentially have, that it's not"},{"startTime":2629.59,"endTime":2630.73,"body":"worth putting them in place."},{"startTime":2631.267,"endTime":2634.85,"body":"Now, if you look at a airplane,"},{"startTime":2631.267,"endTime":2634.85,"body":"I don't think anybody in"},{"startTime":2634.85,"endTime":2638.4,"body":"terms of safety systems for"},{"startTime":2634.85,"endTime":2638.4,"body":"planes in terms of, you know,"},{"startTime":2638.43,"endTime":2640.38,"body":"the seats and et cetera,"},{"startTime":2638.43,"endTime":2640.38,"body":"we'll say, oh, let's take"},{"startTime":2640.44,"endTime":2643.17,"body":"out the flame retardant"},{"startTime":2640.44,"endTime":2643.17,"body":"because we know that time is"},{"startTime":2643.17,"endTime":2645.09,"body":"critical in those situations."},{"startTime":2645.09,"endTime":2646.44,"body":"And it's incredibly important."},{"startTime":2646.95,"endTime":2649.5,"body":"And then arguably, because"},{"startTime":2646.95,"endTime":2649.5,"body":"of the complexity of flame"},{"startTime":2649.56,"endTime":2653.25,"body":"tardy chemistries, they have"},{"startTime":2649.56,"endTime":2653.25,"body":"gotten much, much better"},{"startTime":2653.28,"endTime":2655.26,"body":"over the last 30, 40 years."},{"startTime":2655.26,"endTime":2659.01,"body":"It's enormous improvements in"},{"startTime":2655.26,"endTime":2659.01,"body":"terms of their overall safety."},{"startTime":2659.143,"endTime":2659.413,"body":"So."},{"startTime":2659.905,"endTime":2663.175,"body":"Has research been important"},{"startTime":2659.905,"endTime":2663.175,"body":"here in terms of identifying"},{"startTime":2663.175,"endTime":2665.485,"body":"the potential issues"},{"startTime":2663.175,"endTime":2665.485,"body":"and problems with it?"},{"startTime":2665.635,"endTime":2666.565,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2666.565,"endTime":2670.315,"body":"I say, has the industry"},{"startTime":2666.565,"endTime":2670.315,"body":"responded by making"},{"startTime":2670.315,"endTime":2671.575,"body":"safer flame retardants?"},{"startTime":2671.845,"endTime":2672.895,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2673.045,"endTime":2676.585,"body":"So I think that the same"},{"startTime":2673.045,"endTime":2676.585,"body":"issue has to happen in terms"},{"startTime":2676.585,"endTime":2680.695,"body":"of why we look at batteries"},{"startTime":2676.585,"endTime":2680.695,"body":"that maybe the first few"},{"startTime":2680.785,"endTime":2683.305,"body":"sort of ways that people put"},{"startTime":2680.785,"endTime":2683.305,"body":"together, battery protection"},{"startTime":2683.305,"endTime":2687.295,"body":"systems really inadequate,"},{"startTime":2683.305,"endTime":2687.295,"body":"but something had to be done."},{"startTime":2687.895,"endTime":2691.945,"body":"And it's incumbent on"},{"startTime":2687.895,"endTime":2691.945,"body":"researchers to understand"},{"startTime":2691.945,"endTime":2694.195,"body":"what the limitations and"},{"startTime":2691.945,"endTime":2694.195,"body":"issues associated with."},{"startTime":2694.195,"endTime":2698.635,"body":"The safety of these systems"},{"startTime":2694.195,"endTime":2698.635,"body":"are point them out and"},{"startTime":2698.755,"endTime":2703.868,"body":"allow industry and other"},{"startTime":2698.755,"endTime":2703.868,"body":"organizations to respond, to"},{"startTime":2704.168,"endTime":2707.378,"body":"require and improve the overall"},{"startTime":2704.168,"endTime":2707.378,"body":"safety of these systems."},{"startTime":2707.618,"endTime":2710.078,"body":"So I think, I think that"},{"startTime":2707.618,"endTime":2710.078,"body":"there were analogies and"},{"startTime":2710.078,"endTime":2712.898,"body":"there are ways that we're"},{"startTime":2710.078,"endTime":2712.898,"body":"going to move along this."},{"startTime":2713.533,"endTime":2714.603,"body":"Yeah, on them."},{"startTime":2714.603,"endTime":2716.953,"body":"What you said, that's the"},{"startTime":2714.603,"endTime":2716.953,"body":"one thing that scares me, the"},{"startTime":2716.953,"endTime":2720.187,"body":"longevity of this technology"},{"startTime":2716.953,"endTime":2720.187,"body":"that, even if we figure out, if"},{"startTime":2720.237,"endTime":2723.847,"body":"you go tomorrow and figure out"},{"startTime":2720.237,"endTime":2723.847,"body":"your noble price, awards the"},{"startTime":2723.847,"endTime":2726.907,"body":"technology to make batteries"},{"startTime":2723.847,"endTime":2726.907,"body":"fireproof or something,"},{"startTime":2727.362,"endTime":2727.598,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2727.633,"endTime":2730.303,"body":"just going to be the new"},{"startTime":2727.633,"endTime":2730.303,"body":"batteries while we have already"},{"startTime":2730.303,"endTime":2734.203,"body":"millions of electric vehicles"},{"startTime":2730.303,"endTime":2734.203,"body":"on the roads old batteries, you"},{"startTime":2734.203,"endTime":2738.658,"body":"know, and from my perspective,"},{"startTime":2734.203,"endTime":2738.658,"body":"people come to me and ask,"},{"startTime":2739.004,"endTime":2742.454,"body":"we design a car parks for"},{"startTime":2739.004,"endTime":2742.454,"body":"electric vehicles from now?"},{"startTime":2742.454,"endTime":2744.974,"body":"And I tell them years"},{"startTime":2742.454,"endTime":2744.974,"body":"ago, when you designed"},{"startTime":2744.974,"endTime":2746.834,"body":"the car park, you designed"},{"startTime":2744.974,"endTime":2746.834,"body":"it for electric vehicles."},{"startTime":2746.834,"endTime":2747.614,"body":"He just didn't know."},{"startTime":2747.94,"endTime":2749.5,"body":"and that's not the"},{"startTime":2747.94,"endTime":2749.5,"body":"choice we make."},{"startTime":2749.954,"endTime":2754.825,"body":"so, have to deal  uh, with this"},{"startTime":2749.954,"endTime":2754.825,"body":"in a smart way, not only with"},{"startTime":2754.825,"endTime":2758.268,"body":"the newly produced,  well maybe"},{"startTime":2754.825,"endTime":2758.268,"body":"if you're a manufacturer, you"},{"startTime":2758.298,"endTime":2760.428,"body":"probably are responsible for"},{"startTime":2758.298,"endTime":2760.428,"body":"what you're on the fracture,"},{"startTime":2760.438,"endTime":2766.008,"body":"but us as a safety engineers,"},{"startTime":2760.438,"endTime":2766.008,"body":"delivering safety to the we're"},{"startTime":2766.008,"endTime":2770.568,"body":"also responsible about what's"},{"startTime":2766.008,"endTime":2770.568,"body":"around and how to manage that."},{"startTime":2770.568,"endTime":2775.078,"body":"And I really wonder if there"},{"startTime":2770.568,"endTime":2775.078,"body":"are ways we, manage that or"},{"startTime":2775.088,"endTime":2778.111,"body":"do we just have to hope this,"},{"startTime":2775.088,"endTime":2778.111,"body":"things replaced themselves."},{"startTime":2778.351,"endTime":2782.154,"body":"However, I also read somewhere"},{"startTime":2778.351,"endTime":2782.154,"body":"lately that, the rates of"},{"startTime":2782.154,"endTime":2785.304,"body":"fires in electric vehicles"},{"startTime":2782.154,"endTime":2785.304,"body":"were remarkably low, uh, that"},{"startTime":2785.304,"endTime":2787.164,"body":"there was some insurers claim."},{"startTime":2787.614,"endTime":2790.434,"body":"don't know if how much"},{"startTime":2787.614,"endTime":2790.434,"body":"truth is in that, but it was"},{"startTime":2790.434,"endTime":2794.11,"body":"very, if that is true, that"},{"startTime":2790.434,"endTime":2794.11,"body":"would be very, very nice."},{"startTime":2794.11,"endTime":2797.965,"body":"Maybe you have some knowledge"},{"startTime":2794.11,"endTime":2797.965,"body":"about the statistics of, vehicle"},{"startTime":2797.98,"endTime":2799.6,"body":"battery fires in general."},{"startTime":2800.64,"endTime":2802.02,"body":"oh gosh, I wish I did."},{"startTime":2802.17,"endTime":2805.49,"body":", uh, you know, every paper we"},{"startTime":2802.17,"endTime":2805.49,"body":"write about that we, point"},{"startTime":2805.49,"endTime":2809.487,"body":"to, other people's papers"},{"startTime":2805.49,"endTime":2809.487,"body":"and it all sort of leads to"},{"startTime":2809.487,"endTime":2812.517,"body":"one paper essentially about"},{"startTime":2809.487,"endTime":2812.517,"body":"what failure rates look like."},{"startTime":2812.637,"endTime":2815.277,"body":"Uh, but like you said, I think"},{"startTime":2812.637,"endTime":2815.277,"body":"insurers are increasingly"},{"startTime":2815.277,"endTime":2816.207,"body":"getting information."},{"startTime":2816.207,"endTime":2818.367,"body":"I mean, we're just as the"},{"startTime":2816.207,"endTime":2818.367,"body":"population and number of"},{"startTime":2818.367,"endTime":2819.837,"body":"electric vehicles has come up."},{"startTime":2820.167,"endTime":2823.767,"body":"They seem to be much safer"},{"startTime":2820.167,"endTime":2823.767,"body":"than, internal combustion engine"},{"startTime":2823.767,"endTime":2824.967,"body":"vehicles in terms of fires."},{"startTime":2824.967,"endTime":2829.067,"body":"I mean, I think that's becoming"},{"startTime":2824.967,"endTime":2829.067,"body":"quite clear that they are less"},{"startTime":2829.067,"endTime":2832.027,"body":"prone to fires than, internal"},{"startTime":2829.067,"endTime":2832.027,"body":"combustion engine vehicles."},{"startTime":2832.357,"endTime":2835.834,"body":"And so now it's like, okay,"},{"startTime":2832.357,"endTime":2835.834,"body":"we're on the right path."},{"startTime":2835.834,"endTime":2836.914,"body":"And that's a good thing."},{"startTime":2837.304,"endTime":2839.314,"body":"There's something else that you"},{"startTime":2837.304,"endTime":2839.314,"body":"said there was really, I thought"},{"startTime":2839.314,"endTime":2840.034,"body":"it was really interesting."},{"startTime":2840.034,"endTime":2842.19,"body":"It's just, you everybody"},{"startTime":2840.034,"endTime":2842.19,"body":"and their grandmother is"},{"startTime":2842.19,"endTime":2844.704,"body":"looking at, what's the"},{"startTime":2842.19,"endTime":2844.704,"body":"next battery technology."},{"startTime":2844.704,"endTime":2848.304,"body":"And so whenever I talked to,"},{"startTime":2844.704,"endTime":2848.304,"body":"protection type companies,"},{"startTime":2848.304,"endTime":2850.674,"body":"I said, well, what about"},{"startTime":2848.304,"endTime":2850.674,"body":"solid state batteries?"},{"startTime":2850.674,"endTime":2852.984,"body":"Aren't those supposed to"},{"startTime":2850.674,"endTime":2852.984,"body":"get rid of sort of the"},{"startTime":2852.984,"endTime":2854.694,"body":"safety problems associated?"},{"startTime":2855.114,"endTime":2857.697,"body":"And I said, listen, we're"},{"startTime":2855.114,"endTime":2857.697,"body":"increasingly getting"},{"startTime":2857.697,"endTime":2860.307,"body":"higher energy density and"},{"startTime":2857.697,"endTime":2860.307,"body":"higher power density in"},{"startTime":2860.337,"endTime":2862.197,"body":"all these battery systems."},{"startTime":2863.322,"endTime":2866.172,"body":"When failure occurs and the"},{"startTime":2863.322,"endTime":2866.172,"body":"failure does not have to be"},{"startTime":2866.172,"endTime":2869.082,"body":"associated with the cell itself"},{"startTime":2866.172,"endTime":2869.082,"body":"because of all the reasons that"},{"startTime":2869.112,"endTime":2870.402,"body":"you and I've just talked about."},{"startTime":2870.702,"endTime":2874.602,"body":"If there's a fire and your"},{"startTime":2870.702,"endTime":2874.602,"body":"battery is involved with it,"},{"startTime":2874.662,"endTime":2877.632,"body":"how does it contribute or"},{"startTime":2874.662,"endTime":2877.632,"body":"impact that fire evolution?"},{"startTime":2877.632,"endTime":2878.832,"body":"So that's question number one."},{"startTime":2879.342,"endTime":2879.702,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2880.152,"endTime":2885.062,"body":"Even with solid state batteries,"},{"startTime":2880.152,"endTime":2885.062,"body":"there are so many problems"},{"startTime":2885.062,"endTime":2886.142,"body":"right now with all safety."},{"startTime":2886.142,"endTime":2888.129,"body":"I just read something"},{"startTime":2886.142,"endTime":2888.129,"body":"recently about, there's an"},{"startTime":2888.129,"endTime":2889.059,"body":"electric vehicle company."},{"startTime":2889.059,"endTime":2891.999,"body":"They said we have solid state"},{"startTime":2889.059,"endTime":2891.999,"body":"batteries in our vehicle."},{"startTime":2892.569,"endTime":2893.739,"body":"The range is no different."},{"startTime":2893.739,"endTime":2898.035,"body":"In fact, it's less range than,"},{"startTime":2893.739,"endTime":2898.035,"body":"uh, liquid solvent-based,"},{"startTime":2898.048,"endTime":2899.382,"body":"electrolyte, batteries."},{"startTime":2900.192,"endTime":2903.999,"body":"And it still has the sort"},{"startTime":2900.192,"endTime":2903.999,"body":"of standard electrolyte"},{"startTime":2903.999,"endTime":2907.119,"body":"materials in it because"},{"startTime":2903.999,"endTime":2907.119,"body":"the solid state electric."},{"startTime":2907.839,"endTime":2909.309,"body":"It's brittle it cracks."},{"startTime":2909.339,"endTime":2910.629,"body":"There are all sorts"},{"startTime":2909.339,"endTime":2910.629,"body":"of problems with it."},{"startTime":2910.629,"endTime":2914.139,"body":"So it's really a mixture"},{"startTime":2910.629,"endTime":2914.139,"body":"of the sort of conventional"},{"startTime":2914.139,"endTime":2917.499,"body":"electrolytes and the solid"},{"startTime":2914.139,"endTime":2917.499,"body":"state electrolyte, if you will."},{"startTime":2917.769,"endTime":2923.559,"body":"And so, there's probably a"},{"startTime":2917.769,"endTime":2923.559,"body":"decade before really this just"},{"startTime":2924.009,"endTime":2925.959,"body":"real implementation in this."},{"startTime":2925.959,"endTime":2929.422,"body":"When I talked to, the battery"},{"startTime":2925.959,"endTime":2929.422,"body":"manufacturing people, and"},{"startTime":2929.422,"endTime":2932.712,"body":"even then, as you said, the"},{"startTime":2929.422,"endTime":2932.712,"body":"conventional batteries are"},{"startTime":2932.712,"endTime":2936.792,"body":"commodity and are relatively"},{"startTime":2932.712,"endTime":2936.792,"body":"inexpensive, and those will"},{"startTime":2936.792,"endTime":2941.592,"body":"dominate in a lot of markets"},{"startTime":2936.792,"endTime":2941.592,"body":"and in a lot of applications."},{"startTime":2941.832,"endTime":2944.862,"body":"So in some sense, we're going"},{"startTime":2941.832,"endTime":2944.862,"body":"to be challenged with managing"},{"startTime":2944.862,"endTime":2949.092,"body":"safety systems for new and"},{"startTime":2944.862,"endTime":2949.092,"body":"evolving battery systems, as"},{"startTime":2949.092,"endTime":2953.249,"body":"well as the old systems where,"},{"startTime":2949.092,"endTime":2953.249,"body":"these large companies have"},{"startTime":2953.249,"endTime":2956.819,"body":"dumped billions of dollars into"},{"startTime":2953.249,"endTime":2956.819,"body":"manufacturing capability for"},{"startTime":2956.819,"endTime":2957.989,"body":"these conventional systems."},{"startTime":2957.989,"endTime":2958.289,"body":"So"},{"startTime":2958.842,"endTime":2960.012,"body":"we just have to keep working."},{"startTime":2960.012,"endTime":2960.102,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2960.882,"endTime":2963.342,"body":"but after this talk, I'm"},{"startTime":2960.882,"endTime":2963.342,"body":"fascinated because now I see"},{"startTime":2963.342,"endTime":2968.242,"body":"that, though the cell may be"},{"startTime":2963.342,"endTime":2968.242,"body":"an old technology, it a new"},{"startTime":2968.272,"endTime":2971.692,"body":"compartment, giving it a new"},{"startTime":2968.272,"endTime":2971.692,"body":"battery management system,"},{"startTime":2971.692,"endTime":2975.924,"body":"giving it, access to some"},{"startTime":2971.692,"endTime":2975.924,"body":"new, uh, safety features,"},{"startTime":2975.952,"endTime":2979.442,"body":"like active systems that,"},{"startTime":2975.952,"endTime":2979.442,"body":"that could, uh, react it, it"},{"startTime":2979.632,"endTime":2979.812,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":2980.002,"endTime":2983.619,"body":"improve their safety,"},{"startTime":2980.002,"endTime":2983.619,"body":"despite it being, another"},{"startTime":2983.619,"endTime":2986.829,"body":"technology from, uh, from"},{"startTime":2983.619,"endTime":2986.829,"body":"ancient times, like 2013."},{"startTime":2986.829,"endTime":2987.069,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2988.239,"endTime":2988.599,"body":"So."},{"startTime":2989.899,"endTime":2990.369,"body":"that's right."},{"startTime":2990.799,"endTime":2991.449,"body":"That's it?"},{"startTime":2991.629,"endTime":2993.669,"body":"That is your spot"},{"startTime":2991.629,"endTime":2993.669,"body":"on ancient times."},{"startTime":2993.669,"endTime":2994.119,"body":"Indeed."},{"startTime":2995.139,"endTime":2995.519,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2995.649,"endTime":2997.018,"body":"And, and w one more thing."},{"startTime":2997.595,"endTime":2999.795,"body":"also mentioned this"},{"startTime":2997.595,"endTime":2999.795,"body":"smoke, as a problem."},{"startTime":2999.795,"endTime":3003.525,"body":"And I often run into"},{"startTime":2999.795,"endTime":3003.525,"body":"this issue discussing"},{"startTime":3003.525,"endTime":3004.785,"body":"the problem with people."},{"startTime":3005.325,"endTime":3008.295,"body":"like, man, these fires are huge."},{"startTime":3008.669,"endTime":3010.289,"body":"their temperature is insane."},{"startTime":3010.289,"endTime":3011.909,"body":"Like, okay, that's,"},{"startTime":3010.289,"endTime":3011.909,"body":"that's always nice."},{"startTime":3012.389,"endTime":3012.929,"body":"That's great."},{"startTime":3013.629,"endTime":3016.769,"body":"they, they will like destroy"},{"startTime":3013.629,"endTime":3016.769,"body":"the concrete building."},{"startTime":3016.769,"endTime":3019.859,"body":"They burn so ferocious and"},{"startTime":3016.769,"endTime":3019.859,"body":"they can burn for two days"},{"startTime":3019.859,"endTime":3020.789,"body":"and I'm like, holy shit."},{"startTime":3020.789,"endTime":3023.909,"body":"That's like a, that's a"},{"startTime":3020.789,"endTime":3023.909,"body":"noble price because you broke"},{"startTime":3023.909,"endTime":3028.932,"body":"conservation of energy and"},{"startTime":3023.909,"endTime":3028.932,"body":"mass, like, uh, so it's, either."},{"startTime":3029.112,"endTime":3032.142,"body":"And my experience with people"},{"startTime":3029.112,"endTime":3032.142,"body":"who test the batteries is"},{"startTime":3032.142,"endTime":3035.772,"body":"like, if it burns quickly"},{"startTime":3032.142,"endTime":3035.772,"body":"and fiercefully, that's"},{"startTime":3035.772,"endTime":3036.942,"body":"actually okay, because"},{"startTime":3037.312,"endTime":3037.672,"body":"That's a"},{"startTime":3037.672,"endTime":3038.422,"body":"good thing."},{"startTime":3038.742,"endTime":3040.992,"body":"that's, that's the best thing"},{"startTime":3038.742,"endTime":3040.992,"body":"that's going to happen in the"},{"startTime":3041.242,"endTime":3041.672,"body":"Oh,"},{"startTime":3041.922,"endTime":3042.052,"body":"did"},{"startTime":3042.612,"endTime":3044.532,"body":"gosh, you're saying"},{"startTime":3042.612,"endTime":3044.532,"body":"you're so hot."},{"startTime":3044.682,"endTime":3045.192,"body":"It's funny."},{"startTime":3045.192,"endTime":3047.982,"body":"We just had a conversation"},{"startTime":3045.192,"endTime":3047.982,"body":"with our local fire department."},{"startTime":3047.982,"endTime":3051.012,"body":"They were talking about electric"},{"startTime":3047.982,"endTime":3051.012,"body":"vehicle fire and say, Hey, what"},{"startTime":3051.342,"endTime":3052.599,"body":"you know is this really true?"},{"startTime":3052.599,"endTime":3055.689,"body":"We need to apply in quotes,"},{"startTime":3052.599,"endTime":3055.689,"body":"copious amounts of water."},{"startTime":3055.719,"endTime":3056.979,"body":"I said, Hey, you know what?"},{"startTime":3057.099,"endTime":3060.349,"body":"I think, again, vehicle"},{"startTime":3057.099,"endTime":3060.349,"body":"company X said this, and"},{"startTime":3060.349,"endTime":3061.609,"body":"I really agree with it."},{"startTime":3061.909,"endTime":3063.979,"body":"if there's not an exposure"},{"startTime":3061.909,"endTime":3063.979,"body":"that you're worrying about."},{"startTime":3064.492,"endTime":3068.042,"body":"Let the damn thing burn and let"},{"startTime":3064.492,"endTime":3068.042,"body":"it burn quickly, let it burn"},{"startTime":3068.072,"endTime":3072.062,"body":"quickly so that you don't have"},{"startTime":3068.072,"endTime":3072.062,"body":"to babysit it forever so that"},{"startTime":3072.062,"endTime":3073.802,"body":"you do get rid of all the"},{"startTime":3073.802,"endTime":3074.102,"body":"stuff."},{"startTime":3074.197,"endTime":3074.767,"body":"stay in it."},{"startTime":3074.812,"endTime":3075.662,"body":"Yeah, that's true."},{"startTime":3075.692,"endTime":3076.022,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":3076.022,"endTime":3076.382,"body":"You got it."},{"startTime":3076.412,"endTime":3078.992,"body":"You got it's exposures and"},{"startTime":3076.412,"endTime":3078.992,"body":"those exposures, not just"},{"startTime":3078.992,"endTime":3082.922,"body":"thermal exposures, it's thermal"},{"startTime":3078.992,"endTime":3082.922,"body":"and emissions exposures, but"},{"startTime":3083.012,"endTime":3086.509,"body":"it's really, it's managing"},{"startTime":3083.012,"endTime":3086.509,"body":"exposures, but the way we might"},{"startTime":3086.509,"endTime":3089.359,"body":"think about it as the safest"},{"startTime":3086.509,"endTime":3089.359,"body":"batteries, a burnt battery."},{"startTime":3089.509,"endTime":3094.369,"body":"So if we can burn"},{"startTime":3089.509,"endTime":3094.369,"body":"it, we're good."},{"startTime":3095.209,"endTime":3098.729,"body":"We no longer have a problem,"},{"startTime":3095.209,"endTime":3098.729,"body":"you know, Hey, which I'm not"},{"startTime":3098.729,"endTime":3100.932,"body":"even gonna speak to the fact"},{"startTime":3098.729,"endTime":3100.932,"body":"that is one of the challenges."},{"startTime":3100.932,"endTime":3103.062,"body":"Is that when an electric"},{"startTime":3100.932,"endTime":3103.062,"body":"vehicle or one of these"},{"startTime":3103.062,"endTime":3105.938,"body":"appliances burn, there are a"},{"startTime":3103.062,"endTime":3105.938,"body":"lot of cells in there dead."},{"startTime":3106.414,"endTime":3107.183,"body":"Go off."},{"startTime":3107.473,"endTime":3108.443,"body":"It's your point too?"},{"startTime":3108.443,"endTime":3110.963,"body":"You said that she said,"},{"startTime":3108.443,"endTime":3110.963,"body":"okay, if five cells go"},{"startTime":3110.963,"endTime":3112.553,"body":"off, isn't that safe?"},{"startTime":3112.613,"endTime":3115.133,"body":"Well, it's safe for somebody,"},{"startTime":3112.613,"endTime":3115.133,"body":"but it might be safe, unsafe"},{"startTime":3115.133,"endTime":3117.203,"body":"for somebody else who has"},{"startTime":3115.133,"endTime":3117.203,"body":"to get those five cells"},{"startTime":3117.203,"endTime":3120.083,"body":"out or manage that battery."},{"startTime":3120.083,"endTime":3122.783,"body":"Now that several cells"},{"startTime":3120.083,"endTime":3122.783,"body":"have failed in it and"},{"startTime":3122.813,"endTime":3124.013,"body":"others are compromised."},{"startTime":3124.013,"endTime":3128.183,"body":"So we don't know how"},{"startTime":3124.013,"endTime":3128.183,"body":"compromised the other cells are."},{"startTime":3128.183,"endTime":3130.583,"body":"And that becomes a"},{"startTime":3128.183,"endTime":3130.583,"body":"longer-term issue."},{"startTime":3130.583,"endTime":3132.397,"body":"But that's, there's going"},{"startTime":3130.583,"endTime":3132.397,"body":"to be a whole industry"},{"startTime":3132.397,"endTime":3133.657,"body":"that comes up to deal and"},{"startTime":3133.657,"endTime":3134.827,"body":"manage with those issues."},{"startTime":3135.467,"endTime":3138.167,"body":"burns batteries"},{"startTime":3135.467,"endTime":3138.167,"body":"is very difficult."},{"startTime":3138.197,"endTime":3138.437,"body":"Uh,"},{"startTime":3138.787,"endTime":3139.147,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3139.547,"endTime":3143.197,"body":"tell you how we do it, but"},{"startTime":3139.547,"endTime":3143.197,"body":"I can just say that I would"},{"startTime":3143.197,"endTime":3146.537,"body":"just, I can just say that,"},{"startTime":3143.197,"endTime":3146.537,"body":"that having, having, uh, you"},{"startTime":3146.537,"endTime":3151.637,"body":"know, fire resistance furnaces"},{"startTime":3146.537,"endTime":3151.637,"body":"a lot in some things like,"},{"startTime":3151.907,"endTime":3152.357,"body":"I like"},{"startTime":3152.357,"endTime":3152.537,"body":"it."},{"startTime":3152.597,"endTime":3152.987,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":3152.987,"endTime":3153.407,"body":"like it."},{"startTime":3153.407,"endTime":3153.467,"body":"I"},{"startTime":3153.467,"endTime":3154.067,"body":"agree with you."},{"startTime":3154.157,"endTime":3154.817,"body":"I agree with you."},{"startTime":3154.954,"endTime":3157.298,"body":"when we, when you do this"},{"startTime":3154.954,"endTime":3157.298,"body":"battery tests, like the rule is"},{"startTime":3157.493,"endTime":3157.733,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3157.748,"endTime":3159.008,"body":"leave them there for a week."},{"startTime":3159.008,"endTime":3162.545,"body":"And, uh, after a week there's,"},{"startTime":3159.008,"endTime":3162.545,"body":"they're more or less, it"},{"startTime":3162.585,"endTime":3163.785,"body":"would be very awkward if"},{"startTime":3163.795,"endTime":3164.155,"body":"Uh,"},{"startTime":3164.175,"endTime":3167.445,"body":"happened the week after and on"},{"startTime":3164.175,"endTime":3167.445,"body":"the exact day, when you chose to"},{"startTime":3167.445,"endTime":3171.255,"body":"pick it up, I would act, I would"},{"startTime":3167.445,"endTime":3171.255,"body":"then consider it an act of God"},{"startTime":3171.255,"endTime":3172.275,"body":"and I would just live with it."},{"startTime":3174.015,"endTime":3178.658,"body":"So that's, that's, the point"},{"startTime":3174.015,"endTime":3178.658,"body":"of view, but, it should that,"},{"startTime":3178.7,"endTime":3180.488,"body":"burns batteries, safer battery"},{"startTime":3180.668,"endTime":3181.028,"body":"yeah,"},{"startTime":3181.158,"endTime":3182.818,"body":"the unburned one."},{"startTime":3183.628,"endTime":3184.148,"body":"absolutely."},{"startTime":3184.258,"endTime":3186.102,"body":"discussed this with respondent,"},{"startTime":3186.572,"endTime":3186.872,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3186.992,"endTime":3188.372,"body":"They need to know."},{"startTime":3188.402,"endTime":3190.292,"body":"There are two kinds of threads."},{"startTime":3190.292,"endTime":3194.462,"body":"They will be exposed to"},{"startTime":3190.292,"endTime":3194.462,"body":"one being a huge fire to"},{"startTime":3194.462,"endTime":3197.042,"body":"which they are used to word."},{"startTime":3197.042,"endTime":3197.642,"body":"The challenge"},{"startTime":3197.832,"endTime":3198.042,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3198.062,"endTime":3201.212,"body":"toxicology because the fire"},{"startTime":3198.062,"endTime":3201.212,"body":"will be there as they know it."},{"startTime":3201.572,"endTime":3205.772,"body":"It's just gonna to be a little"},{"startTime":3201.572,"endTime":3205.772,"body":"different chemical composition"},{"startTime":3205.772,"endTime":3206.702,"body":"of the smoke in which"},{"startTime":3206.742,"endTime":3207.642,"body":"Yes, yes,"},{"startTime":3207.902,"endTime":3208.442,"body":"anyway."},{"startTime":3208.842,"endTime":3209.862,"body":"yes, exactly."},{"startTime":3210.108,"endTime":3214.068,"body":"that's option a and option B if"},{"startTime":3210.108,"endTime":3214.068,"body":"something weird is happening,"},{"startTime":3214.068,"endTime":3215.365,"body":"it's, it's puffing, it's,"},{"startTime":3215.665,"endTime":3215.995,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3216.265,"endTime":3220.692,"body":"smoking his gun that that's a"},{"startTime":3216.265,"endTime":3220.692,"body":"completely different scenario."},{"startTime":3221.112,"endTime":3224.442,"body":"And then maybe I can imagine"},{"startTime":3221.112,"endTime":3224.442,"body":"where you would have to"},{"startTime":3224.502,"endTime":3228.492,"body":"isolate this vehicle or this"},{"startTime":3224.502,"endTime":3228.492,"body":"battery, even four days."},{"startTime":3229.052,"endTime":3229.322,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":3229.382,"endTime":3231.002,"body":"And let's say option C."},{"startTime":3231.002,"endTime":3233.882,"body":"And so, whether it's confined"},{"startTime":3231.002,"endTime":3233.882,"body":"or unconfined becomes the issue."},{"startTime":3233.882,"endTime":3236.43,"body":"And so, we go to the"},{"startTime":3233.882,"endTime":3236.43,"body":"surprise arson incident"},{"startTime":3236.43,"endTime":3237.18,"body":"and other incidents."},{"startTime":3237.18,"endTime":3240.06,"body":"It's just that, I"},{"startTime":3237.18,"endTime":3240.06,"body":"conventionally have dealt"},{"startTime":3240.06,"endTime":3241.5,"body":"with non pre-mixed flames."},{"startTime":3241.53,"endTime":3244.147,"body":"I deal with, you know,"},{"startTime":3241.53,"endTime":3244.147,"body":"natural burning systems."},{"startTime":3244.33,"endTime":3247.27,"body":"but in another life I did"},{"startTime":3244.33,"endTime":3247.27,"body":"work on premixed lengths."},{"startTime":3247.27,"endTime":3249.58,"body":"And so the, the"},{"startTime":3247.27,"endTime":3249.58,"body":"challenges becomes that"},{"startTime":3249.85,"endTime":3251.2,"body":"explosions can occur."},{"startTime":3251.2,"endTime":3254.11,"body":"I mean, so we're not just,"},{"startTime":3251.2,"endTime":3254.11,"body":"we're not just, so when does"},{"startTime":3254.11,"endTime":3256.42,"body":"this thing becomes under"},{"startTime":3254.11,"endTime":3256.42,"body":"ventilated, if it's confined,"},{"startTime":3256.42,"endTime":3257.65,"body":"it's becomes under ventilated."},{"startTime":3258.465,"endTime":3262.795,"body":"The products are not just"},{"startTime":3258.465,"endTime":3262.795,"body":"CEO that we might see in"},{"startTime":3262.795,"endTime":3264.925,"body":"normal, under ventilated"},{"startTime":3262.795,"endTime":3264.925,"body":"combustion systems."},{"startTime":3265.105,"endTime":3267.745,"body":"We had hydrogen and we"},{"startTime":3265.105,"endTime":3267.745,"body":"have hydrocarbons in there."},{"startTime":3268.135,"endTime":3271.045,"body":"And so the explosion"},{"startTime":3268.135,"endTime":3271.045,"body":"hazard is real."},{"startTime":3271.045,"endTime":3273.055,"body":"And so we have to start"},{"startTime":3271.045,"endTime":3273.055,"body":"thinking about explosion"},{"startTime":3273.055,"endTime":3277.585,"body":"protection in a serious way"},{"startTime":3273.055,"endTime":3277.585,"body":"for our confined or partially"},{"startTime":3277.585,"endTime":3279.295,"body":"confined battery systems."},{"startTime":3280.024,"endTime":3282.52,"body":"I know the last"},{"startTime":3280.024,"endTime":3282.52,"body":"one we did blew up."},{"startTime":3282.875,"endTime":3284.495,"body":"Yes, yes, yes."},{"startTime":3284.57,"endTime":3286.677,"body":"Nah, but  wow man."},{"startTime":3286.72,"endTime":3288.01,"body":"it's an hour already."},{"startTime":3288.1,"endTime":3288.88,"body":"I told you like"},{"startTime":3288.945,"endTime":3289.345,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3289.39,"endTime":3291.46,"body":"presentations are boring"},{"startTime":3289.39,"endTime":3291.46,"body":"and long, but when"},{"startTime":3291.645,"endTime":3292.715,"body":"I write, oh,"},{"startTime":3292.725,"endTime":3293.025,"body":"this is"},{"startTime":3293.025,"endTime":3293.385,"body":"great."},{"startTime":3293.47,"endTime":3294.417,"body":"like, it's good."},{"startTime":3294.417,"endTime":3295.197,"body":"So quickly."},{"startTime":3295.682,"endTime":3296.492,"body":"This is great."},{"startTime":3296.907,"endTime":3297.977,"body":"Any famous last words?"},{"startTime":3299.732,"endTime":3300.062,"body":"This was"},{"startTime":3300.062,"endTime":3300.722,"body":"a lot of fun."},{"startTime":3300.917,"endTime":3303.597,"body":"uh, no, but seriously,"},{"startTime":3300.917,"endTime":3303.597,"body":"let's, let's close it"},{"startTime":3303.597,"endTime":3304.854,"body":"up  with some statements."},{"startTime":3304.854,"endTime":3307.854,"body":"So I think I share"},{"startTime":3304.854,"endTime":3307.854,"body":"your mindsets."},{"startTime":3307.944,"endTime":3310.464,"body":"I'm not scared of"},{"startTime":3307.944,"endTime":3310.464,"body":"this technology."},{"startTime":3311.364,"endTime":3314.42,"body":"It's a new technology,"},{"startTime":3311.364,"endTime":3314.42,"body":"relatively new, we're on the"},{"startTime":3314.42,"endTime":3318.26,"body":"front of making it safer,"},{"startTime":3314.42,"endTime":3318.26,"body":"which does not mean it's unsafe"},{"startTime":3318.92,"endTime":3323.223,"body":"and there's lots of smart"},{"startTime":3318.92,"endTime":3323.223,"body":"people working on it and,"},{"startTime":3323.497,"endTime":3325.57,"body":"trying to, make it better."},{"startTime":3325.63,"endTime":3326.08,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3326.304,"endTime":3326.754,"body":"hopeful."},{"startTime":3326.814,"endTime":3327.414,"body":"I am."},{"startTime":3327.414,"endTime":3328.314,"body":"I'm very hopeful."},{"startTime":3328.314,"endTime":3331.324,"body":"I think that you, you"},{"startTime":3328.314,"endTime":3331.324,"body":"summed it up perfectly."},{"startTime":3331.777,"endTime":3335.527,"body":"we're moving into, there's"},{"startTime":3331.777,"endTime":3335.527,"body":"nothing we can do to"},{"startTime":3335.587,"endTime":3336.967,"body":"change this trajectory."},{"startTime":3336.967,"endTime":3340.644,"body":"I don't think because it's"},{"startTime":3336.967,"endTime":3340.644,"body":"incredibly required and, we're"},{"startTime":3340.644,"endTime":3341.604,"body":"just trying to improve it."},{"startTime":3341.634,"endTime":3342.084,"body":"That's all."},{"startTime":3342.084,"endTime":3347.364,"body":"So I'm, I'm very hopeful that"},{"startTime":3342.084,"endTime":3347.364,"body":"all of the effort that you and"},{"startTime":3347.424,"endTime":3351.45,"body":"others and, we're all trying to"},{"startTime":3347.424,"endTime":3351.45,"body":"collectively do in this space."},{"startTime":3351.47,"endTime":3353.33,"body":"we'll create safer systems."},{"startTime":3353.68,"endTime":3354.37,"body":"Yeah, man."},{"startTime":3354.37,"endTime":3354.79,"body":"Thanks."},{"startTime":3354.86,"endTime":3356.47,"body":"This was, this was excellent."},{"startTime":3356.5,"endTime":3357.52,"body":"I thought she was"},{"startTime":3356.5,"endTime":3357.52,"body":"going to be excellent."},{"startTime":3358.07,"endTime":3358.81,"body":"He didn't believe that"},{"startTime":3359.0,"endTime":3359.24,"body":"Ah,"},{"startTime":3360.31,"endTime":3362.894,"body":"this is I really enjoyed it."},{"startTime":3362.894,"endTime":3365.654,"body":"It was a great pleasure having"},{"startTime":3362.894,"endTime":3365.654,"body":"you in the fire sane show"},{"startTime":3365.684,"endTime":3369.884,"body":"and I'm sure I'm going to"},{"startTime":3365.684,"endTime":3369.884,"body":"see you here again, I hope to"},{"startTime":3369.964,"endTime":3370.624,"body":"I hope so"},{"startTime":3370.814,"endTime":3372.044,"body":"you in Austin as well."},{"startTime":3372.464,"endTime":3372.674,"body":"Uh,"},{"startTime":3372.874,"endTime":3373.144,"body":"that would"},{"startTime":3373.144,"endTime":3373.264,"body":"be"},{"startTime":3373.264,"endTime":3373.984,"body":"wonderful."},{"startTime":3374.014,"endTime":3375.034,"body":"That would be wonderful."},{"startTime":3375.073,"endTime":3378.935,"body":"th there's supposedly some"},{"startTime":3375.073,"endTime":3378.935,"body":"pickle challenge, posed"},{"startTime":3379.395,"endTime":3382.515,"body":"was the better way to eat a"},{"startTime":3379.395,"endTime":3382.515,"body":"pickle like Polish way, super"},{"startTime":3382.515,"endTime":3384.945,"body":"sour or Texas way fried."},{"startTime":3385.185,"endTime":3388.245,"body":"So we were going to"},{"startTime":3385.185,"endTime":3388.245,"body":"settle that in the battle."},{"startTime":3389.41,"endTime":3391.24,"body":"And it should be, it"},{"startTime":3389.41,"endTime":3391.24,"body":"should be an Austin."},{"startTime":3391.24,"endTime":3392.68,"body":"We'll we'll do it in Austin."},{"startTime":3392.68,"endTime":3393.82,"body":"We'll do in Warsaw."},{"startTime":3394.06,"endTime":3394.85,"body":"We'll do it all over."},{"startTime":3396.135,"endTime":3396.975,"body":"Thank you so much."},{"startTime":3397.545,"endTime":3397.845,"body":"thanks."},{"startTime":3397.96,"endTime":3398.41,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":3398.41,"endTime":3399.04,"body":"Thank you for doing"},{"startTime":3399.04,"endTime":3399.28,"body":"this."},{"startTime":3399.77,"endTime":3400.42,"body":"See you around"},{"startTime":3400.48,"endTime":3400.96,"body":"Take care."},{"startTime":3401.2,"endTime":3401.53,"body":"Goodbye."},{"startTime":3402.423,"endTime":3403.113,"body":"And that's it."},{"startTime":3403.413,"endTime":3404.373,"body":"Hope you've liked this."},{"startTime":3404.823,"endTime":3408.963,"body":"I've spent one hour talking to"},{"startTime":3404.823,"endTime":3408.963,"body":"DK and he's my best friend now."},{"startTime":3409.503,"endTime":3410.823,"body":"It was an amazing episode."},{"startTime":3410.883,"endTime":3412.893,"body":"So enthusiastic, so happy about."},{"startTime":3412.968,"endTime":3416.864,"body":"The research he's doing and so"},{"startTime":3412.968,"endTime":3416.864,"body":"optimistic towards the future."},{"startTime":3416.954,"endTime":3419.294,"body":"And I think that's"},{"startTime":3416.954,"endTime":3419.294,"body":"what I really needed."},{"startTime":3419.804,"endTime":3422.744,"body":"And optimistic view"},{"startTime":3419.804,"endTime":3422.744,"body":"towards the fire."},{"startTime":3422.744,"endTime":3425.564,"body":"See future of lithium-ion"},{"startTime":3422.744,"endTime":3425.564,"body":"battery technology."},{"startTime":3425.914,"endTime":3428.884,"body":"Because it is a"},{"startTime":3425.914,"endTime":3428.884,"body":"part of our future."},{"startTime":3429.394,"endTime":3430.774,"body":"Whether we like it or not."},{"startTime":3430.894,"endTime":3434.194,"body":"And, and it's great that"},{"startTime":3430.894,"endTime":3434.194,"body":"smart people are working."},{"startTime":3434.225,"endTime":3437.088,"body":"To make this technology"},{"startTime":3434.225,"endTime":3437.088,"body":"as safe as possible."},{"startTime":3437.688,"endTime":3440.628,"body":"And as we mentioned in"},{"startTime":3437.688,"endTime":3440.628,"body":"the episode, It does"},{"startTime":3440.628,"endTime":3441.798,"body":"not mean it's not safe."},{"startTime":3442.458,"endTime":3445.578,"body":"It means we are still seeking"},{"startTime":3442.458,"endTime":3445.578,"body":"solutions, how to tackle"},{"startTime":3445.578,"endTime":3448.728,"body":"problems better, how to"},{"startTime":3445.578,"endTime":3448.728,"body":"identify problems better."},{"startTime":3449.058,"endTime":3451.788,"body":"How to apply solutions"},{"startTime":3449.058,"endTime":3451.788,"body":"at many layers of the"},{"startTime":3451.788,"endTime":3453.318,"body":"protection within the battery."},{"startTime":3454.158,"endTime":3455.448,"body":"And with all this."},{"startTime":3455.868,"endTime":3456.828,"body":"Just make it."},{"startTime":3457.128,"endTime":3458.508,"body":"Better more accessible."},{"startTime":3458.958,"endTime":3461.782,"body":"."},{"startTime":3458.958,"endTime":3461.782,"body":"Easier to replace, easier"},{"startTime":3461.782,"endTime":3462.952,"body":"fire risk perspective."},{"startTime":3463.432,"endTime":3468.102,"body":"So I hope you've enjoyed this"},{"startTime":3463.432,"endTime":3468.102,"body":"optimistic view on batteries."},{"startTime":3468.132,"endTime":3471.402,"body":"And you can share this with"},{"startTime":3468.132,"endTime":3471.402,"body":"all of your friends who are."},{"startTime":3471.578,"endTime":3474.128,"body":"A little scared"},{"startTime":3471.578,"endTime":3474.128,"body":"of the technology."},{"startTime":3474.848,"endTime":3477.068,"body":"And maybe they will"},{"startTime":3474.848,"endTime":3477.068,"body":"give a little more"},{"startTime":3477.068,"endTime":3478.178,"body":"enthusiastic about it."},{"startTime":3478.688,"endTime":3480.728,"body":"And with this optimistic."},{"startTime":3480.998,"endTime":3483.299,"body":"accent I would love"},{"startTime":3480.998,"endTime":3483.299,"body":"to close this episode."},{"startTime":3483.809,"endTime":3486.059,"body":"Thank you so much for"},{"startTime":3483.809,"endTime":3486.059,"body":"being here and listening."},{"startTime":3486.629,"endTime":3488.849,"body":"And I hope to see you next week."},{"startTime":3488.909,"endTime":3491.489,"body":"Another great interview coming"},{"startTime":3488.909,"endTime":3491.489,"body":"your way next Wednesday."},{"startTime":3491.969,"endTime":3492.419,"body":"Cheers."},{"startTime":3492.479,"endTime":3492.749,"body":"Bye."}]}