{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":0.18,"endTime":1.62,"body":"Hello,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":0.18,"endTime":1.62,"body":"and welcome to session 20"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1.62,"endTime":2.61,"body":"of the fire science show."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2.7,"endTime":5.4,"body":"Great to have you here,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2.7,"endTime":5.4,"body":"another nice round number"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":5.4,"endTime":8.76,"body":"for the podcast, and as"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":5.4,"endTime":8.76,"body":"usual, I'm having a really"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":8.76,"endTime":10.11,"body":"nice special guest for you."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":10.2,"endTime":13.71,"body":"Um, my today's guest is also"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":10.2,"endTime":13.71,"body":"very special to me because he's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":13.71,"endTime":16.5,"body":"research on the performance"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":13.71,"endTime":16.5,"body":"based engineering as being"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":16.5,"endTime":19.35,"body":"a starting point for many,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":16.5,"endTime":19.35,"body":"many of my own endeavors."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":19.68,"endTime":23.76,"body":"So I truly, truly admire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":19.68,"endTime":23.76,"body":"him for his science, besides"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":23.88,"endTime":25.65,"body":"scientists as great that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":26.19,"endTime":29.1,"body":"During his years at Worchester"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":26.19,"endTime":29.1,"body":"Polytechnic Institute, he's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":29.19,"endTime":32.82,"body":"shaped a whole generation of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":29.19,"endTime":32.82,"body":"young fire safety engineers"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":32.82,"endTime":34.83,"body":"in the U S and not only."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":35.13,"endTime":38.71,"body":"And, uh, his service to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":35.13,"endTime":38.71,"body":"community is also astounding."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":38.82,"endTime":41.64,"body":"He's served as the President"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":38.82,"endTime":41.64,"body":"of the Society of Fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":41.64,"endTime":44.879,"body":"Protection Engineers and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":41.64,"endTime":44.879,"body":"currently is the Chairman of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":44.879,"endTime":47.73,"body":"the International Association"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":44.879,"endTime":47.73,"body":"for the Fire Safety Science."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":48.0,"endTime":50.73,"body":"This is an amazing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":48.0,"endTime":50.73,"body":"record, but after all."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":51.265,"endTime":52.315,"body":"Just a really nice guy."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":52.315,"endTime":55.525,"body":"And if you ever meet him on"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":52.315,"endTime":55.525,"body":"the conference, make sure to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":55.554,"endTime":58.254,"body":"talk with him because this,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":55.554,"endTime":58.254,"body":"these discussions are the best."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":58.614,"endTime":61.855,"body":"So please help me welcoming"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":58.614,"endTime":61.855,"body":"professor Bram Mitcham of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":61.885,"endTime":65.004,"body":"Meacham associates and with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":61.885,"endTime":65.004,"body":"Brian, what else can we"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":65.004,"endTime":67.494,"body":"talk about is going to be a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":65.004,"endTime":67.494,"body":"discussion about the future"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":67.494,"endTime":71.005,"body":"of performance-based fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":67.494,"endTime":71.005,"body":"safety engineering, or maybe"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":71.005,"endTime":74.065,"body":"even the future of the fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":71.005,"endTime":74.065,"body":"safety engineering as a whole,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":74.155,"endTime":75.925,"body":"that's not belong this anymore."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":75.975,"endTime":78.344,"body":"Let's spin the intro and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":75.975,"endTime":78.344,"body":"jump into the episode."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":102.515,"endTime":103.115,"body":"Hello everybody."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":103.295,"endTime":105.155,"body":"Welcome to Fire Science Show."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":105.215,"endTime":109.205,"body":"I am today with Professor Brian"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":105.215,"endTime":109.205,"body":"Meacham managing principal"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":109.205,"endTime":110.195,"body":"of Meacham associates."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":110.615,"endTime":111.075,"body":"Hi Brian."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":111.075,"endTime":112.73,"body":"Hi"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":111.075,"endTime":112.73,"body":"Wojciech, how are you?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":113.335,"endTime":113.935,"body":"I'm great."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":113.935,"endTime":114.625,"body":"I'm really happy."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":114.625,"endTime":117.475,"body":"We got to this point"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":114.625,"endTime":117.475,"body":"to do this interview."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":117.93,"endTime":121.02,"body":"I'm honored that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":117.93,"endTime":121.02,"body":"I've been invited to join this a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":121.02,"endTime":123.0,"body":"wonderful and important podcast."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":123.0,"endTime":123.54,"body":"So thank you."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":124.025,"endTime":124.595,"body":"well, thanks."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":124.625,"endTime":125.495,"body":"Thanks for your opinion."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":125.495,"endTime":126.555,"body":"That's much appreciated."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":126.615,"endTime":129.795,"body":"I'm really happy to hear"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":126.615,"endTime":129.795,"body":"that from you, especially."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":130.225,"endTime":131.862,"body":"So Brian, I know your research."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":131.862,"endTime":132.702,"body":"I know your studies."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":132.702,"endTime":134.865,"body":"I followed them for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":132.702,"endTime":134.865,"body":"years they've been the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":134.865,"endTime":138.465,"body":"starting point for many"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":134.865,"endTime":138.465,"body":"of my own research items."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":138.915,"endTime":143.235,"body":"And I really wish I could"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":138.915,"endTime":143.235,"body":"start this podcast by saying"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":143.925,"endTime":147.975,"body":"15 or 20 years ago when"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":143.925,"endTime":147.975,"body":"I started my interest in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":147.975,"endTime":150.705,"body":"this discipline, it was a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":147.975,"endTime":150.705,"body":"completely different world."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":150.705,"endTime":155.075,"body":"And now everything is different,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":150.705,"endTime":155.075,"body":"but it's not I'm here just"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":155.075,"endTime":156.672,"body":"for less than two decades."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":157.302,"endTime":160.992,"body":"And I don't see this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":157.302,"endTime":160.992,"body":"paradigm shift around me."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":161.352,"endTime":164.862,"body":"I go to my office, I do the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":161.352,"endTime":164.862,"body":"same work I did 10 years ago."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":165.282,"endTime":168.102,"body":"Did we slow down or stop?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":168.132,"endTime":170.412,"body":"What, how do you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":168.132,"endTime":170.412,"body":"feel about that?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":170.912,"endTime":173.912,"body":"Yeah, I share"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":170.912,"endTime":173.912,"body":"a bit your same concerns."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":173.912,"endTime":176.432,"body":"And for me it's been"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":173.912,"endTime":176.432,"body":"more than 30 years."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":176.432,"endTime":181.712,"body":"So, when I started looking"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":176.432,"endTime":181.712,"body":"into, you know, the whole area"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":181.712,"endTime":185.572,"body":"of performance-based design"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":181.712,"endTime":185.572,"body":"for fire and performance based"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":185.652,"endTime":189.792,"body":"building regulations it was"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":185.652,"endTime":189.792,"body":"in a time when I think there"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":189.792,"endTime":193.812,"body":"was a lot of interest of, how"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":189.792,"endTime":193.812,"body":"we can do better and how we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":193.812,"endTime":198.572,"body":"as fire safety engineers can"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":193.812,"endTime":198.572,"body":"add value and not just follow"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":198.572,"endTime":202.722,"body":"the regulations, but, break"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":198.572,"endTime":202.722,"body":"out and become designers."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":203.222,"endTime":207.882,"body":"And unfortunately, at the time I"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":203.222,"endTime":207.882,"body":"talked about a paradigm that was"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":207.882,"endTime":212.172,"body":"presented by a great structural"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":207.882,"endTime":212.172,"body":"engineer, Alan Cornell from"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":212.172,"endTime":215.422,"body":"Stanford, who talked about"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":212.172,"endTime":215.422,"body":"the three phases of maturity,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":215.422,"endTime":216.772,"body":"of an engineering discipline."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":217.402,"endTime":221.062,"body":"And I always characterize"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":217.402,"endTime":221.062,"body":"fire safety engineering as"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":221.062,"endTime":224.572,"body":"being in the adolescent stage"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":221.062,"endTime":224.572,"body":"and kept projecting that we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":224.572,"endTime":228.322,"body":"get out to the mature stage"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":224.572,"endTime":228.322,"body":"within the next 10 years."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":228.652,"endTime":231.742,"body":"And then 10 years later, I"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":228.652,"endTime":231.742,"body":"said the same thing, 10 years"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":231.742,"endTime":233.272,"body":"later, I said the same thing."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":233.842,"endTime":237.682,"body":"And now I'm not so sure that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":233.842,"endTime":237.682,"body":"without a big shift where we're"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":237.682,"endTime":238.942,"body":"actually going to get there."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":238.988,"endTime":241.978,"body":"And I think part of that is"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":238.988,"endTime":241.978,"body":"because we haven't, really"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":242.398,"endTime":246.598,"body":"absorbed and taken to heart well"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":242.398,"endTime":246.598,"body":"enough that we're just a small"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":247.313,"endTime":252.833,"body":"cog and the wheel of building"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":247.313,"endTime":252.833,"body":"design and building regulation"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":252.833,"endTime":257.243,"body":"and the built environment,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":252.833,"endTime":257.243,"body":"and we should be reacting to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":257.243,"endTime":261.263,"body":"the bigger system and we were"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":257.243,"endTime":261.263,"body":"trying to drive the system."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":261.263,"endTime":264.063,"body":"And I think we need to maybe"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":261.263,"endTime":264.063,"body":"think a little bit more"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":264.063,"endTime":267.213,"body":"of how we can do a better"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":264.063,"endTime":267.213,"body":"job to advance ourselves"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":267.243,"endTime":269.403,"body":"and advance the system."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":270.116,"endTime":271.496,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":270.116,"endTime":271.496,"body":"I, if I remember your"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":271.496,"endTime":275.196,"body":"paper,  it was like 1999,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":271.496,"endTime":275.196,"body":"like the future of PBD."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":275.196,"endTime":277.056,"body":"And I loved it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":277.086,"endTime":279.666,"body":"Then 10 years later,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":277.086,"endTime":279.666,"body":"you've said pretty much the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":279.666,"endTime":281.106,"body":"same after another paper."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":281.106,"endTime":284.366,"body":"And then they see it  years"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":281.106,"endTime":284.366,"body":"later, it's again, it reminds"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":284.366,"endTime":286.976,"body":"me of Shawshank Redemption"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":284.366,"endTime":286.976,"body":"when Red was filing for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":287.186,"endTime":288.266,"body":"release from the prison."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":288.266,"endTime":292.436,"body":"Everything is, and, and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":288.266,"endTime":292.436,"body":"you finalize that now."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":292.436,"endTime":293.216,"body":"You're not so sure."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":293.216,"endTime":295.816,"body":"So it's a similar maybe"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":293.216,"endTime":295.816,"body":"that's a sign of a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":295.816,"endTime":297.376,"body":"maturity of the discussion."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":297.876,"endTime":303.906,"body":"For myself, I think the PBD"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":297.876,"endTime":303.906,"body":"approach in a way is a unicorn."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":304.416,"endTime":307.526,"body":"And my daughters would"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":304.416,"endTime":307.526,"body":"really love and unicorn,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":307.556,"endTime":308.966,"body":"but no one has seen one yet."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":309.326,"endTime":313.786,"body":"And, in a way I feel chasing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":309.326,"endTime":313.786,"body":"the same thing in this formula,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":313.816,"endTime":319.476,"body":"this freedom of engineers, this,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":313.816,"endTime":319.476,"body":"ability to craft shape design."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":320.046,"endTime":323.976,"body":"And I'm not sure if PBD is that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":320.046,"endTime":323.976,"body":"thing that, that we're chasing."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":324.226,"endTime":329.886,"body":"I found this quote in 1925,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":324.226,"endTime":329.886,"body":"us building code that wherever"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":329.886,"endTime":332.496,"body":"possible the requirements"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":329.886,"endTime":332.496,"body":"should be formulated in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":332.496,"endTime":335.196,"body":"terms of performance,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":332.496,"endTime":335.196,"body":"based on research results."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":335.796,"endTime":339.566,"body":"And, that's pretty much PBD"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":335.796,"endTime":339.566,"body":"there a hundred years ago."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":339.866,"endTime":342.866,"body":"So, I think this approach"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":339.866,"endTime":342.866,"body":"is as old as the engineering"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":342.866,"endTime":344.966,"body":"itself, maybe it is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":342.866,"endTime":344.966,"body":"the engineering itself."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":345.546,"endTime":347.156,"body":"So what for you is PBD."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":347.156,"endTime":348.396,"body":"How do you see this unicorn?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":348.896,"endTime":350.066,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":348.896,"endTime":350.066,"body":"well, it's interesting."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":350.066,"endTime":353.576,"body":"I mean, I agree that,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":350.066,"endTime":353.576,"body":"performance-based design"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":354.296,"endTime":358.596,"body":"at least how we use it in"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":354.296,"endTime":358.596,"body":"fire, really is design."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":358.626,"endTime":359.916,"body":"It's engineering design."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":359.916,"endTime":361.296,"body":"It's what we all"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":359.916,"endTime":361.296,"body":"should be doing."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":361.346,"endTime":362.546,"body":"As engineers."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":363.026,"endTime":367.076,"body":"I think the challenging part"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":363.026,"endTime":367.076,"body":"in particular for fire is that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":367.576,"endTime":373.846,"body":"we've grown up as a discipline"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":367.576,"endTime":373.846,"body":"in the shadow of disaster and."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":374.716,"endTime":379.306,"body":"Regulation was putting the place"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":374.716,"endTime":379.306,"body":"to mitigate disaster, which put"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":379.306,"endTime":383.956,"body":"boundary conditions around how"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":379.306,"endTime":383.956,"body":"fire safety engineering would"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":383.956,"endTime":388.226,"body":"actually be accomplished and the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":383.956,"endTime":388.226,"body":"flexibility that you would have."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":388.886,"endTime":392.086,"body":"And so you can look at the,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":388.886,"endTime":392.086,"body":"all the way back to the great"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":392.086,"endTime":395.746,"body":"fire of London, if you want"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":392.086,"endTime":395.746,"body":"to go back that far, but even"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":395.746,"endTime":399.556,"body":"in the 19th century and in the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":395.746,"endTime":399.556,"body":"U S for example, the Chicago"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":399.556,"endTime":403.126,"body":"Fire or the Boston Fire and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":399.556,"endTime":403.126,"body":"the Baltimore Conflagration,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":403.646,"endTime":408.296,"body":"even the San Francisco"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":403.646,"endTime":408.296,"body":"Earthquake and Fire in 1906."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":408.656,"endTime":411.146,"body":"And then we kept"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":408.656,"endTime":411.146,"body":"burning cities down."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":411.416,"endTime":415.696,"body":"And so that was actually the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":411.416,"endTime":415.696,"body":"establishment of insurance,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":415.746,"endTime":420.036,"body":"requirements around fire safety"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":415.746,"endTime":420.036,"body":"design, which ultimately went"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":420.036,"endTime":421.536,"body":"into building regulation."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":422.131,"endTime":426.941,"body":"That at least in north America"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":422.131,"endTime":426.941,"body":"became, pretty much specified"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":426.941,"endTime":430.841,"body":"what you do rather than"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":426.941,"endTime":430.841,"body":"engineering solutions around it."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":431.261,"endTime":434.281,"body":"And then we have the added"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":431.261,"endTime":434.281,"body":"complication that other"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":434.281,"endTime":435.661,"body":"disciplines don't have."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":435.661,"endTime":438.341,"body":"Like, you could argue"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":435.661,"endTime":438.341,"body":"structural engineering has"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":438.341,"endTime":441.251,"body":"the same challenges to deal"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":438.341,"endTime":441.251,"body":"with earthquake loads, wind"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":441.251,"endTime":446.711,"body":"load, and other, cyclical,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":441.251,"endTime":446.711,"body":"but not a consistent design"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":446.711,"endTime":451.571,"body":"events, but we have an no"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":446.711,"endTime":451.571,"body":"offense, a Fire Service."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":451.991,"endTime":454.541,"body":"There's no Structural Police."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":455.141,"endTime":457.931,"body":"Right, there's no Energy"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":455.141,"endTime":457.931,"body":"Police, there's no"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":457.931,"endTime":460.201,"body":"Structural Design Police."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":460.201,"endTime":466.001,"body":"We've created this culture and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":460.201,"endTime":466.001,"body":"this society where, we expect"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":466.001,"endTime":469.751,"body":"that there will be fires and the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":466.001,"endTime":469.751,"body":"fire service or the heroes that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":469.751,"endTime":471.911,"body":"will come in and save lives."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":472.541,"endTime":476.931,"body":"And so the fire service, is"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":472.541,"endTime":476.931,"body":"a little bit I was going to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":476.931,"endTime":480.501,"body":"say risk averse, but maybe"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":476.931,"endTime":480.501,"body":"practical in saying that,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":480.931,"endTime":484.361,"body":"we don't adopt some of these"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":480.931,"endTime":484.361,"body":"thinking of the structural"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":484.361,"endTime":487.721,"body":"engineers of risk-based"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":484.361,"endTime":487.721,"body":"design we think you should"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":487.721,"endTime":489.431,"body":"be designing for zero risk."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":489.761,"endTime":493.001,"body":"And even though they understand"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":489.761,"endTime":493.001,"body":"that there's no such thing"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":493.001,"endTime":496.661,"body":"as zero risk, there's kind"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":493.001,"endTime":496.661,"body":"of a public persona that you"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":496.661,"endTime":500.021,"body":"publicly can't say that there"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":496.661,"endTime":500.021,"body":"is a possibility that our"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":500.021,"endTime":503.981,"body":"building will burn down or"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":500.021,"endTime":503.981,"body":"a life will be lost because"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":504.191,"endTime":507.551,"body":"that's what the fire services"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":504.191,"endTime":507.551,"body":"therefore is to prevent that."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":508.061,"endTime":511.031,"body":"So we have these challenges"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":508.061,"endTime":511.031,"body":"that you don't see in other"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":511.031,"endTime":515.531,"body":"engineering disciplines, which"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":511.031,"endTime":515.531,"body":"are our social constructs"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":515.531,"endTime":521.181,"body":"and cultural norms that, that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":515.531,"endTime":521.181,"body":"change the way we operate the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":521.181,"endTime":524.781,"body":"way we're regulated and how"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":521.181,"endTime":524.781,"body":"the discipline actually works."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":526.444,"endTime":530.084,"body":"With"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":526.444,"endTime":530.084,"body":"this, concept of firefighters"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":530.414,"endTime":533.869,"body":"beint there to mitigate in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":530.414,"endTime":533.869,"body":"a way, the consequences  of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":533.869,"endTime":537.279,"body":"the building fires , that's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":533.869,"endTime":537.279,"body":"additional layer of complexity"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":537.279,"endTime":540.789,"body":"to where the acceptance boundary"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":537.279,"endTime":540.789,"body":"can be, you know, because"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":540.789,"endTime":543.289,"body":"instructional engineering,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":540.789,"endTime":543.289,"body":"you lose your load-bearing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":543.309,"endTime":544.599,"body":"capacity the building collapses."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":544.629,"endTime":545.919,"body":"That's very sharp, right?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":546.459,"endTime":550.599,"body":"If you earthquake engineering,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":546.459,"endTime":550.599,"body":"if you design a building for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":550.599,"endTime":553.089,"body":"this magnitude of earthquake"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":550.599,"endTime":553.089,"body":"and you have a bigger one,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":553.089,"endTime":554.619,"body":"it's gonna mostly fail."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":554.639,"endTime":554.919,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":555.309,"endTime":559.029,"body":"But here it's blended"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":555.309,"endTime":559.029,"body":"because you're talking about"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":559.529,"endTime":560.549,"body":"the consequences of fire."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":560.549,"endTime":563.849,"body":"First, the fire scenario"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":560.549,"endTime":563.849,"body":"itself is a complex thing."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":563.849,"endTime":566.729,"body":"And, there is a design scenario,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":563.849,"endTime":566.729,"body":"but it's not necessarily"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":566.729,"endTime":569.519,"body":"the fire that will be in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":566.729,"endTime":569.519,"body":"building or there, that is not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":569.519,"endTime":571.649,"body":"the fire that will be in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":569.519,"endTime":571.649,"body":"building the fire response,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":571.679,"endTime":572.639,"body":"how well they will go."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":572.729,"endTime":575.069,"body":"It there's so many"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":572.729,"endTime":575.069,"body":"things to account for."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":575.199,"endTime":577.629,"body":"so you're like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":575.199,"endTime":577.629,"body":"interfaces blended there."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":577.629,"endTime":580.749,"body":"It's not the single point"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":577.629,"endTime":580.749,"body":"goal that you go through."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":581.19,"endTime":581.58,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":581.63,"endTime":585.08,"body":"And it's even more complex"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":581.63,"endTime":585.08,"body":"because we have the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":585.08,"endTime":587.63,"body":"challenge of people, right?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":587.67,"endTime":590.82,"body":"So you're not worried about"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":587.67,"endTime":590.82,"body":"people causing a seismic event."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":591.1,"endTime":593.32,"body":"maybe if you get enough"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":591.1,"endTime":593.32,"body":"people jumping up and down"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":593.32,"endTime":596.68,"body":"that you'll have a little"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":593.32,"endTime":596.68,"body":"bit of a concern, but I mean,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":596.74,"endTime":599.98,"body":"people and human behavior,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":596.74,"endTime":599.98,"body":"people can start fires."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":600.01,"endTime":602.86,"body":"People contribute to the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":600.01,"endTime":602.86,"body":"severity of fires by the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":603.22,"endTime":606.98,"body":"contents that they put in"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":603.22,"endTime":606.98,"body":"buildings, how they treat"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":606.98,"endTime":611.22,"body":"things such as, do they block"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":606.98,"endTime":611.22,"body":"open smoke or fire doors?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":611.85,"endTime":615.21,"body":"And so you have this human"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":611.85,"endTime":615.21,"body":"component that adds a complexity"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":615.21,"endTime":619.845,"body":"to what the fire scenario"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":615.21,"endTime":619.845,"body":"and the fire significance"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":619.845,"endTime":623.685,"body":"is going to be in any given"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":619.845,"endTime":623.685,"body":"building, which increases"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":623.685,"endTime":627.355,"body":"the uncertainty in prediction"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":623.685,"endTime":627.355,"body":"because you have this huge"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":627.355,"endTime":629.785,"body":"variability in the population."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":630.305,"endTime":635.085,"body":"and so people are an always"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":630.305,"endTime":635.085,"body":"have been kind of a focus of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":635.085,"endTime":637.295,"body":"protection  in fire safety."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":637.895,"endTime":641.565,"body":"And again,  the fire service"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":637.895,"endTime":641.565,"body":"plays a role in, in keeping"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":641.565,"endTime":643.075,"body":"the emphasis on people."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":643.315,"endTime":646.525,"body":"And if you look to earthquake"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":643.315,"endTime":646.525,"body":"engineering or wind engineering,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":647.065,"endTime":649.015,"body":"it's not that they ignore"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":647.065,"endTime":649.015,"body":"people, but they're."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":649.505,"endTime":652.985,"body":"Very much in the paradigm of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":649.505,"endTime":652.985,"body":"the probability of failure of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":652.985,"endTime":657.245,"body":"the system or a significant"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":652.985,"endTime":657.245,"body":"part of the building."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":657.245,"endTime":660.455,"body":"so the focus is the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":657.245,"endTime":660.455,"body":"building and not the people."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":660.455,"endTime":664.865,"body":"And what's the reliability of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":660.455,"endTime":664.865,"body":"the structural system, given"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":665.105,"endTime":667.055,"body":"different load combinations."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":667.105,"endTime":669.925,"body":"And so you never see a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":667.105,"endTime":669.925,"body":"building regulation or a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":669.925,"endTime":675.025,"body":"standard talk about, explicitly"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":669.925,"endTime":675.025,"body":"the life loss side of it."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":675.265,"endTime":679.235,"body":"Whereas in fire, it's always"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":675.265,"endTime":679.235,"body":"talking about, what's the, how"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":679.235,"endTime":682.655,"body":"many people are going to die,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":679.235,"endTime":682.655,"body":"what's the probability of, 10"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":682.655,"endTime":686.885,"body":"or more people dying, which is"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":682.655,"endTime":686.885,"body":"by NFPA kind of a large event."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":687.455,"endTime":693.075,"body":"And so this also dis"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":687.455,"endTime":693.075,"body":"dichotomy between people as"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":693.285,"endTime":696.615,"body":"a metric versus the building"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":693.285,"endTime":696.615,"body":"performance as a metric."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":697.215,"endTime":701.205,"body":"And if we were in the building"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":697.215,"endTime":701.205,"body":"performance realm,  I think it"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":701.205,"endTime":704.445,"body":"would be a little bit different,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":701.205,"endTime":704.445,"body":"but I don't know that society"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":704.445,"endTime":709.525,"body":"necessarily will allow us to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":704.445,"endTime":709.525,"body":"go in that direction, because"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":709.525,"endTime":713.935,"body":"they have this social conception"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":709.525,"endTime":713.935,"body":"of the firefighters saved"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":714.205,"endTime":716.335,"body":"people from burning buildings."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":716.385,"endTime":720.175,"body":"And this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":716.385,"endTime":720.175,"body":"abstract concept of safety, the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":720.445,"endTime":722.575,"body":"people would like to be safe."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":723.115,"endTime":727.275,"body":"Now, the definition of safety"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":723.115,"endTime":727.275,"body":"in itself is a complex thing."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":727.565,"endTime":732.935,"body":"I would like to take it closer"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":727.565,"endTime":732.935,"body":"to the PBD because, um, for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":732.935,"endTime":737.76,"body":"performance  based design,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":732.935,"endTime":737.76,"body":"you don't mention some aspects"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":737.76,"endTime":741.66,"body":"like probabilities risks, the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":737.76,"endTime":741.66,"body":"consequences of the fires,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":742.02,"endTime":743.34,"body":"but the PBD is a big animal."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":743.34,"endTime":744.42,"body":"It comes in flavors."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":744.48,"endTime":748.28,"body":"It comes in different forms and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":744.48,"endTime":748.28,"body":"you've mentioned it's, it can"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":748.28,"endTime":752.36,"body":"take different forms from even"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":748.28,"endTime":752.36,"body":"simple expert judgment, up to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":752.36,"endTime":754.67,"body":"extremely complex risk analysis."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":755.24,"endTime":760.18,"body":"So if you want the PBD to come"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":755.24,"endTime":760.18,"body":"as a tool for fire engineers,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":760.27,"endTime":764.57,"body":"so designers can design, what"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":760.27,"endTime":764.57,"body":"flavor of that should it be?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":764.63,"endTime":765.2,"body":"Should we."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":765.935,"endTime":770.525,"body":"Let the expert judgment in,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":765.935,"endTime":770.525,"body":"should we go into the risk-based"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":770.525,"endTime":773.315,"body":"concepts or maybe what's we're"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":770.525,"endTime":773.315,"body":"doing now in the middle, like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":773.345,"endTime":777.405,"body":"taking a design fire, popping"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":773.345,"endTime":777.405,"body":"a CFD now, under there and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":777.435,"endTime":778.665,"body":"seeing what's the outcomes."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":778.975,"endTime":781.925,"body":"Where do you think, is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":778.975,"endTime":781.925,"body":"there a simple answer to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":781.925,"endTime":783.125,"body":"what the PBD should be?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":783.195,"endTime":786.155,"body":"Or how can we push it"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":783.195,"endTime":786.155,"body":"to, to become a useful"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":786.455,"endTime":788.465,"body":"element of our environment?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":788.478,"endTime":791.018,"body":"I think it"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":788.478,"endTime":791.018,"body":"already is a useful element."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":791.018,"endTime":795.228,"body":"I think what it can"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":791.018,"endTime":795.228,"body":"become is more useful and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":795.248,"endTime":797.678,"body":"more widely applicable."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":797.728,"endTime":800.938,"body":"I would take it back maybe"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":797.728,"endTime":800.938,"body":"to a more fundamental"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":800.938,"endTime":804.388,"body":"question of what performance"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":800.938,"endTime":804.388,"body":"are we trying to achieve."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":804.458,"endTime":807.748,"body":"One of the things that was"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":804.458,"endTime":807.748,"body":"always a concern for me."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":807.748,"endTime":811.408,"body":"And one thing that I tried"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":807.748,"endTime":811.408,"body":"to incorporate when I was"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":811.408,"endTime":814.048,"body":"teaching about performance-based"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":811.408,"endTime":814.048,"body":"design is getting the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":814.048,"endTime":816.238,"body":"problem definition, correct."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":816.568,"endTime":819.058,"body":"Because over my career,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":816.568,"endTime":819.058,"body":"I've seen a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":819.058,"endTime":821.698,"body":"invest a lot of time in"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":819.058,"endTime":821.698,"body":"solving the wrong problem."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":822.148,"endTime":824.978,"body":"And then at the end of the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":822.148,"endTime":824.978,"body":"day you have all this nice"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":824.978,"endTime":829.088,"body":"analysis that says all kinds of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":824.978,"endTime":829.088,"body":"wonderful things, but,  somehow"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":829.148,"endTime":830.618,"body":"the point has been missed."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":831.338,"endTime":835.358,"body":"And I think that's the root of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":831.338,"endTime":835.358,"body":"the challenge here is that I"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":835.358,"endTime":839.828,"body":"don't think we've well enough"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":835.358,"endTime":839.828,"body":"to define what performance"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":839.858,"endTime":841.448,"body":"we're trying to achieve."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":841.988,"endTime":842.828,"body":"And you can look at this."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":843.308,"endTime":844.298,"body":"In different ways."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":844.298,"endTime":847.688,"body":"If we go back maybe a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":844.298,"endTime":847.688,"body":"little bit to the structural"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":847.688,"endTime":851.808,"body":"engineering analogy, it's"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":847.688,"endTime":851.808,"body":"trying to prevent unacceptable"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":851.808,"endTime":855.078,"body":"failure of the building"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":851.808,"endTime":855.078,"body":"given, load combinations"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":855.078,"endTime":856.308,"body":"that are imposed on it."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":856.968,"endTime":860.028,"body":"In fire safety, we have"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":856.968,"endTime":860.028,"body":"a lot of objectives."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":860.058,"endTime":863.538,"body":"We have basically the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":860.058,"endTime":863.538,"body":"five fire safety goals of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":863.538,"endTime":867.318,"body":"protecting people, property,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":863.538,"endTime":867.318,"body":"business, operation,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":867.708,"endTime":869.988,"body":"environment, and heritage."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":870.378,"endTime":873.828,"body":"And each one of those has a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":870.378,"endTime":873.828,"body":"different aspect, but this"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":873.888,"endTime":878.988,"body":"focus on people gets us into"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":873.888,"endTime":878.988,"body":"writing design objectives."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":878.988,"endTime":883.388,"body":"Like, provide adequate time for"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":878.988,"endTime":883.388,"body":"everybody in the building to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":883.388,"endTime":888.138,"body":"escape without being subjected"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":883.388,"endTime":888.138,"body":"to, untenable conditions."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":888.468,"endTime":891.488,"body":"So now we've taken the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":888.468,"endTime":891.488,"body":"design objective away"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":891.488,"endTime":893.918,"body":"from designing a building."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":893.918,"endTime":897.398,"body":"That's going to perform at a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":893.918,"endTime":897.398,"body":"certain level when subjected"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":897.398,"endTime":901.298,"body":"to a fire to trying to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":897.398,"endTime":901.298,"body":"protect people who are highly"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":901.298,"endTime":907.058,"body":"variable in their physiology"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":901.298,"endTime":907.058,"body":"and behavioral responses."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":907.793,"endTime":911.063,"body":"And we're expected to be able"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":907.793,"endTime":911.063,"body":"to say that people will be"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":911.063,"endTime":915.323,"body":"able to get out without walking"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":911.063,"endTime":915.323,"body":"through a smoke-filled corridor."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":915.373,"endTime":918.013,"body":"We can't control people."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":918.433,"endTime":921.473,"body":"You know, we take certain"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":918.433,"endTime":921.473,"body":"steps to try to control"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":921.473,"endTime":923.093,"body":"conditions, but maybe it's a."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":923.713,"endTime":926.563,"body":"Yeah, we have to rethink,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":923.713,"endTime":926.563,"body":"should we be really focusing"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":926.563,"endTime":930.613,"body":"more on what we can do with"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":926.563,"endTime":930.613,"body":"the building and its systems,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":930.823,"endTime":935.703,"body":"given our understanding of human"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":930.823,"endTime":935.703,"body":"interactions, social constructs,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":935.753,"endTime":939.943,"body":"and the regulatory environment"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":935.753,"endTime":939.943,"body":"and shift the objective, then."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":940.478,"endTime":942.908,"body":"You can figure out the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":940.478,"endTime":942.908,"body":"performance that you're actually"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":942.908,"endTime":946.538,"body":"trying to achieve and pick"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":942.908,"endTime":946.538,"body":"an appropriate method, which"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":946.538,"endTime":950.858,"body":"can still range from expert"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":946.538,"endTime":950.858,"body":"judgment to complex analysis."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":950.858,"endTime":953.588,"body":"But you know, when you"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":950.858,"endTime":953.588,"body":"do it in the context of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":953.588,"endTime":958.428,"body":"the institutions that are"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":953.588,"endTime":958.428,"body":"involved in the regulation and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":958.428,"endTime":962.598,"body":"operation and occupancy of the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":958.428,"endTime":962.598,"body":"building, then you're sitting"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":962.648,"endTime":964.198,"body":"in a little better position."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":964.198,"endTime":967.888,"body":"So this taking better account"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":964.198,"endTime":967.888,"body":"of this social technical"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":968.038,"endTime":971.358,"body":"systems interaction, where"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":968.038,"endTime":971.358,"body":"you're really looking at the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":971.358,"endTime":975.348,"body":"actors, the institutions and the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":971.358,"endTime":975.348,"body":"technology together, and you're"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":975.348,"endTime":980.178,"body":"looking at how you can design"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":975.348,"endTime":980.178,"body":"the building to enable the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":980.178,"endTime":984.028,"body":"objective, which may be, don't"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":980.178,"endTime":984.028,"body":"collapse, the building, same"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":984.028,"endTime":986.638,"body":"as you would do in earthquake"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":984.028,"endTime":986.638,"body":"engineering, which has the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":986.638,"endTime":989.348,"body":"benefit of keeping people safe."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":989.438,"endTime":993.273,"body":"And maybe that's a way to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":989.438,"endTime":993.273,"body":"start moving beyond some of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":993.273,"endTime":997.923,"body":"the roadblocks that we've"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":993.273,"endTime":997.923,"body":"seen with acceptibility with"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":997.923,"endTime":1000.983,"body":"people who don't necessarily"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":997.923,"endTime":1000.983,"body":"have confidence in our"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1001.313,"endTime":1003.863,"body":"engineering analyses and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1001.313,"endTime":1003.863,"body":"the assumptions we make,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1004.078,"endTime":1005.698,"body":"To make"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1004.078,"endTime":1005.698,"body":"sure I understood correctly."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1005.698,"endTime":1009.258,"body":"So you would say that the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1005.698,"endTime":1009.258,"body":"objective should be, for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1009.258,"endTime":1013.878,"body":"example, less focused on"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1009.258,"endTime":1013.878,"body":"individual tenability, for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1013.878,"endTime":1017.748,"body":"example, but more focused on"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1013.878,"endTime":1017.748,"body":"the overall goal that we want"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1017.748,"endTime":1022.128,"body":"to achieve by designing a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1017.748,"endTime":1022.128,"body":"building, taking into account"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1022.128,"endTime":1025.608,"body":"this, actors, institutions"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1022.128,"endTime":1025.608,"body":"and technology, which is what"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1025.608,"endTime":1027.108,"body":"is possible with every level."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1027.658,"endTime":1027.898,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1027.898,"endTime":1029.668,"body":"That's it that's a good summary."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1029.718,"endTime":1032.898,"body":"Another way to think about"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1029.718,"endTime":1032.898,"body":"it is I view building as"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1032.898,"endTime":1034.788,"body":"complex systems of systems."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1035.448,"endTime":1037.608,"body":"A building, the work,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1035.448,"endTime":1037.608,"body":"the interactions between"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1037.608,"endTime":1040.998,"body":"all of the systems have"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1037.608,"endTime":1040.998,"body":"to work appropriately."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1041.328,"endTime":1045.868,"body":"And the building fire safety"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1041.328,"endTime":1045.868,"body":"system, as a holistic type"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1045.868,"endTime":1049.578,"body":"of, construct means that your"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1045.868,"endTime":1049.578,"body":"detection and your suppression,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1049.578,"endTime":1052.998,"body":"your compartmentation"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1049.578,"endTime":1052.998,"body":"and resilience all has"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1052.998,"endTime":1056.448,"body":"to work together, but the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1052.998,"endTime":1056.448,"body":"question then becomes work"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1056.448,"endTime":1058.188,"body":"together to achieve what."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1059.028,"endTime":1064.008,"body":"And I think it's really thinking"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1059.028,"endTime":1064.008,"body":"about this core issue of, is"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1064.008,"endTime":1068.778,"body":"it really, to ensure that every"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1064.008,"endTime":1068.778,"body":"person can get out safely or is"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1068.778,"endTime":1072.768,"body":"it to ensure the integrity of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1068.778,"endTime":1072.768,"body":"the building and minimize the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1072.768,"endTime":1077.458,"body":"potential for,  unacceptable"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1072.768,"endTime":1077.458,"body":"loss associated with people,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1077.458,"endTime":1081.728,"body":"property operations, that could"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1077.458,"endTime":1081.728,"body":"occur because there's always"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1081.728,"endTime":1083.288,"body":"a probability of it occurring."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1083.688,"endTime":1085.743,"body":"Fire is astochastic  event."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1086.113,"endTime":1090.293,"body":"And I do have concerns and we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1086.113,"endTime":1090.293,"body":"sometimes try to do everything"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1090.293,"endTime":1095.363,"body":"deterministically and ignore"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1090.293,"endTime":1095.363,"body":"the probabilistic aspects."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1095.733,"endTime":1098.193,"body":"And I think we have to mature"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1095.733,"endTime":1098.193,"body":"in that way, but I think we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1098.193,"endTime":1099.693,"body":"can only mature in that way."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1099.693,"endTime":1104.313,"body":"If we mature our thinking about,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1099.693,"endTime":1104.313,"body":"what it is, we're really hoping"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1104.313,"endTime":1105.513,"body":"to achieve in the building."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1105.513,"endTime":1107.643,"body":"And actually how"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1105.513,"endTime":1107.643,"body":"we communicate that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1108.179,"endTime":1110.027,"body":"When"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1108.179,"endTime":1110.027,"body":"I'm doing analysis for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1110.027,"endTime":1111.887,"body":"buildings, I'm doing my CFD."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1111.887,"endTime":1114.167,"body":"I'm calculating the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1111.887,"endTime":1114.167,"body":"ASET / RSET times."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1114.527,"endTime":1115.187,"body":"And so on."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1115.517,"endTime":1117.707,"body":"I sometimes have this feeling."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1117.707,"endTime":1119.687,"body":"I cannot get rid of that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1119.717,"endTime":1122.087,"body":"I'm building a proxy of safety."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1122.087,"endTime":1125.897,"body":"Like I am absolutely sure"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1122.087,"endTime":1125.897,"body":"that this scenario I am"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1125.897,"endTime":1128.987,"body":"doing is not a representation"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1125.897,"endTime":1128.987,"body":"of a threat that will"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1128.987,"endTime":1130.007,"body":"happen in the building."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1130.427,"endTime":1136.277,"body":"What I'm doing is I'm going"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1130.427,"endTime":1136.277,"body":"through a social concepts that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1136.727,"endTime":1141.477,"body":"if for my design fire, taking"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1136.727,"endTime":1141.477,"body":"this boundary conditions for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1141.477,"endTime":1145.527,"body":"my analysis, I prove that the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1141.477,"endTime":1145.527,"body":"building has passed the test."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1145.947,"endTime":1148.077,"body":"And one value is bigger"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1145.947,"endTime":1148.077,"body":"than the other value."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1148.407,"endTime":1151.647,"body":"Then if something happens in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1148.407,"endTime":1151.647,"body":"the building, it will be okay"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1152.037,"endTime":1153.357,"body":"because it passed my test."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1153.407,"endTime":1157.787,"body":"But I'm not seeking, the true"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1153.407,"endTime":1157.787,"body":"safety or I don't even know"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1157.983,"endTime":1160.82,"body":"what objective is there like,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1157.983,"endTime":1160.82,"body":"it's very hard to define it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1161.06,"endTime":1163.64,"body":"My goal is to get one value"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1161.06,"endTime":1163.64,"body":"above the other one, right."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1164.06,"endTime":1166.7,"body":"And I have to fit the building"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1164.06,"endTime":1166.7,"body":"with solutions so long that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1167.13,"endTime":1170.63,"body":"it passes the test, but it's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1167.13,"endTime":1170.63,"body":"essentially, it's a test."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1170.63,"endTime":1172.94,"body":"It's not a measure of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1170.63,"endTime":1172.94,"body":"safety of that building."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1173.423,"endTime":1173.873,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1173.913,"endTime":1175.613,"body":"And that's part"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1173.913,"endTime":1175.613,"body":"of the challenge."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1175.613,"endTime":1179.973,"body":"If you look to the system"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1175.613,"endTime":1179.973,"body":"safety literature, and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1180.283,"endTime":1184.823,"body":"some of the constructs that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1180.283,"endTime":1184.823,"body":"are used in other areas."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1185.133,"endTime":1189.388,"body":"Let's, take road safety just"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1185.133,"endTime":1189.388,"body":"as an example, and in the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1189.388,"endTime":1192.928,"body":"Nordic countries and elsewhere,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1189.388,"endTime":1192.928,"body":"they have a vision zero"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1193.318,"endTime":1198.018,"body":"objective to,  try to reduce"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1193.318,"endTime":1198.018,"body":"the number of accidents that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1198.108,"endTime":1202.748,"body":"you know, would lead to a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1198.108,"endTime":1202.748,"body":"death due to traffic accident."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1203.108,"endTime":1206.258,"body":"And so the aim is to put"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1203.108,"endTime":1206.258,"body":"in designs within the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1206.258,"endTime":1211.648,"body":"system to control for,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1206.258,"endTime":1211.648,"body":"the type of accident or"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1211.648,"endTime":1213.508,"body":"incident that could occur."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1213.868,"endTime":1219.673,"body":"That would be a an indicator or"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1213.868,"endTime":1219.673,"body":"a predicator of that fatality."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1219.673,"endTime":1223.793,"body":"So the focus is on,  putting"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1219.673,"endTime":1223.793,"body":"in safety systems, safety"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1223.793,"endTime":1228.213,"body":"boundaries, minimizing the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1223.793,"endTime":1228.213,"body":"potential for the unacceptable"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1228.213,"endTime":1231.993,"body":"event to occur rather than"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1228.213,"endTime":1231.993,"body":"calculating or estimating"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1231.993,"endTime":1236.033,"body":"all the scenarios that would"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1231.993,"endTime":1236.033,"body":"necessarily lead to the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1236.163,"endTime":1238.893,"body":"unaccepted or unacceptable loss."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1239.253,"endTime":1243.913,"body":"So if we change that over  to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1239.253,"endTime":1243.913,"body":"fire, maybe we spend far too"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1243.913,"endTime":1249.343,"body":"much time, trying to create"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1243.913,"endTime":1249.343,"body":"scenarios that, address"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1249.343,"endTime":1253.023,"body":"situations that yes, would"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1249.343,"endTime":1253.023,"body":"result in a fire, but may"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1253.263,"endTime":1257.073,"body":"not be the fire that we're"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1253.263,"endTime":1257.073,"body":"going to see or as suitably"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1257.073,"endTime":1258.483,"body":"representative enough."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1258.993,"endTime":1263.883,"body":"So what if we kind of take"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1258.993,"endTime":1263.883,"body":"a step  backwards to the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1263.883,"endTime":1267.833,"body":"idea of the most, worst"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1263.883,"endTime":1267.833,"body":"credible case, fire event"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1267.863,"endTime":1271.943,"body":"or the maximum foreseeable"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1267.863,"endTime":1271.943,"body":"loss scenario type that the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1271.943,"endTime":1273.653,"body":"insurance industry uses."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1274.043,"endTime":1278.633,"body":"And the design is focused on"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1274.043,"endTime":1278.633,"body":"putting in safety barriers"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1278.663,"endTime":1284.213,"body":"that are intended to keep"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1278.663,"endTime":1284.213,"body":"the loss within the limits."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1284.553,"endTime":1288.343,"body":"Maybe we're modeling"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1284.553,"endTime":1288.343,"body":"situations that, we're trying"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1288.343,"endTime":1291.733,"body":"to understand, but we don't"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1288.343,"endTime":1291.733,"body":"actually need to understand"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1291.973,"endTime":1296.243,"body":"to end up with the level of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1291.973,"endTime":1296.243,"body":"safety or the implementation"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1296.243,"endTime":1300.713,"body":"of safety measures that would"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1296.243,"endTime":1300.713,"body":"increase the safety to a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1300.833,"endTime":1302.753,"body":"socially acceptable level."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1303.563,"endTime":1306.133,"body":"But that's a much different"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1303.563,"endTime":1306.133,"body":"way of thinking then"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1306.163,"endTime":1311.203,"body":"performance-based design is"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1306.163,"endTime":1311.203,"body":"currently being practiced."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1311.274,"endTime":1312.84,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1311.274,"endTime":1312.84,"body":"you've mentioned this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1312.87,"endTime":1315.78,"body":"socio-technical systems as"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1312.87,"endTime":1315.78,"body":"well connected to the building"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1315.78,"endTime":1318.09,"body":"engineering, but there's also"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1315.78,"endTime":1318.09,"body":"technology it's legislators."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1318.36,"endTime":1321.51,"body":"So without changing this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1318.36,"endTime":1321.51,"body":"other elements, you cannot"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1321.81,"endTime":1323.47,"body":"solve the building problem."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1323.47,"endTime":1326.3,"body":"And I had also this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1323.47,"endTime":1326.3,"body":"thought that, vision zero."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1326.3,"endTime":1329.9,"body":"When you said that vision"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1326.3,"endTime":1329.9,"body":"zero is a goal and is vision"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1329.9,"endTime":1331.91,"body":"is real possible in fire."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1331.91,"endTime":1337.17,"body":"The challenge is that even if"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1331.91,"endTime":1337.17,"body":"we do improve our regulations,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1337.2,"endTime":1341.31,"body":"even if we do improve the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1337.2,"endTime":1341.31,"body":"technology, if we go through"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1341.34,"endTime":1346.51,"body":"some courageous moves to improve"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1341.34,"endTime":1346.51,"body":"the safety, we are usually"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1346.51,"endTime":1350.02,"body":"talking about the safety of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1346.51,"endTime":1350.02,"body":"the newly built structures."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1350.05,"endTime":1354.16,"body":"And, from my experience is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1350.05,"endTime":1354.16,"body":"that the issues, the fatal"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1354.18,"endTime":1357.18,"body":"fires, the problems are with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1354.18,"endTime":1357.18,"body":"the existing structures,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1357.51,"endTime":1358.71,"body":"not the, with the new ones."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1359.19,"endTime":1363.097,"body":"If you would like to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1359.19,"endTime":1363.097,"body":"push a vision, that's,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1363.13,"endTime":1363.94,"body":"it's the simplest idea."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1363.94,"endTime":1367.03,"body":"Let's sprinkler, every building"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1363.94,"endTime":1367.03,"body":"in Poland would not be possible"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1367.03,"endTime":1370.59,"body":"because, that the cost of this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1367.03,"endTime":1370.59,"body":"operation is unbelievable."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1370.86,"endTime":1375.75,"body":"So without an objective"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1370.86,"endTime":1375.75,"body":"measure, of when it's worth to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1375.75,"endTime":1378.12,"body":"go to that, like we're blind."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1378.15,"endTime":1380.52,"body":"We, I don't know if"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1378.15,"endTime":1380.52,"body":"it's worth it or not."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1381.0,"endTime":1383.46,"body":"Well, again"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1381.0,"endTime":1383.46,"body":"that's part of the challenge"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1383.46,"endTime":1386.55,"body":"with, the social technical"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1383.46,"endTime":1386.55,"body":"systems thinking when you're"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1386.55,"endTime":1390.167,"body":"dealing with the institutions"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1386.55,"endTime":1390.167,"body":"and, regulations and again,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1390.167,"endTime":1394.157,"body":"for me, a part of that is"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1390.167,"endTime":1394.157,"body":"the role of the fire service"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1394.637,"endTime":1398.217,"body":"in, in looking at, this idea"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1394.637,"endTime":1398.217,"body":"of, is there an acceptable"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1398.217,"endTime":1402.087,"body":"level of risk or is there a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1398.217,"endTime":1402.087,"body":"tolerable level of risk or"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1402.087,"endTime":1407.187,"body":"do you have to aim for being"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1402.087,"endTime":1407.187,"body":"safe and at all accounts."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1407.187,"endTime":1412.557,"body":"And, you know, structural"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1407.187,"endTime":1412.557,"body":"engineering, again using that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1412.557,"endTime":1416.547,"body":"analogy, is in the, is governed"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1412.557,"endTime":1416.547,"body":"by the building regulations."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1416.787,"endTime":1420.867,"body":"Building fire safety design is"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1416.787,"endTime":1420.867,"body":"often governed by both building"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1420.867,"endTime":1426.047,"body":"regulations and some type of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1420.867,"endTime":1426.047,"body":"fire service regulation,  in"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1426.067,"endTime":1430.747,"body":"some countries, Asian countries"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1426.067,"endTime":1430.747,"body":"in particular, it goes so far"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1430.747,"endTime":1433.637,"body":"as said, passive protection"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1430.747,"endTime":1433.637,"body":"and structural is in the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1433.637,"endTime":1436.397,"body":"building code, but active"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1433.637,"endTime":1436.397,"body":"systems like detection and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1436.397,"endTime":1439.217,"body":"suppression is in the fire code."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1439.395,"endTime":1440.205,"body":"It's the same in here."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1440.465,"endTime":1442.037,"body":"It's"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1440.465,"endTime":1442.037,"body":"hugely complex."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1442.137,"endTime":1447.017,"body":"Why does fire design"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1442.137,"endTime":1447.017,"body":"have to be that complex?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1447.017,"endTime":1451.187,"body":"And I think from the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1447.017,"endTime":1451.187,"body":"institutional perspective,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1451.397,"endTime":1455.627,"body":"as long as the fire service"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1451.397,"endTime":1455.627,"body":"is engaged in the regulatory"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1455.627,"endTime":1458.957,"body":"side of things and in the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1455.627,"endTime":1458.957,"body":"enforcement, it's always going"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1458.957,"endTime":1462.347,"body":"to be an order of magnitude"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1458.957,"endTime":1462.347,"body":"higher than designing for"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1462.347,"endTime":1466.727,"body":"any other hazard, because"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1462.347,"endTime":1466.727,"body":"you have a dual set of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1466.727,"endTime":1468.707,"body":"regulatory structures."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1468.707,"endTime":1471.927,"body":"You have a dual set of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1468.707,"endTime":1471.927,"body":"enforcement structures."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1472.377,"endTime":1475.947,"body":"You have one side that I would"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1472.377,"endTime":1475.947,"body":"argue on the building side"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1476.397,"endTime":1481.887,"body":"accepts the concept of risk and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1476.397,"endTime":1481.887,"body":"reliability based design because"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1481.887,"endTime":1486.597,"body":"they do so for structures and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1481.887,"endTime":1486.597,"body":"for earthquake and wind hazards."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1486.927,"endTime":1491.462,"body":"But the fire service doesn't,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1486.927,"endTime":1491.462,"body":"they don't want to say what an"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1491.462,"endTime":1493.412,"body":"acceptable level of risk is."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1493.622,"endTime":1497.132,"body":"So this gets into this challenge"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1493.622,"endTime":1497.132,"body":"of how do you set an objective"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1497.132,"endTime":1500.942,"body":"for building, if you have"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1497.132,"endTime":1500.942,"body":"an institutional actor who's"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1500.942,"endTime":1504.932,"body":"focused on life safety, because"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1500.942,"endTime":1504.932,"body":"that's their primary job who"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1504.932,"endTime":1509.222,"body":"will never agree to a level"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1504.932,"endTime":1509.222,"body":"of acceptable risk or safety"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1509.222,"endTime":1513.242,"body":"for the population, then"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1509.222,"endTime":1513.242,"body":"you're stuck in this limbo"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1513.242,"endTime":1517.632,"body":"where, you're negotiating all"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1513.242,"endTime":1517.632,"body":"the time to try to determine"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1517.632,"endTime":1519.372,"body":"what that target level is."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1519.582,"endTime":1521.472,"body":"And then it'll change"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1519.582,"endTime":1521.472,"body":"from jurisdiction to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1521.472,"endTime":1524.802,"body":"jurisdiction within a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1521.472,"endTime":1524.802,"body":"country in between countries."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1524.802,"endTime":1528.842,"body":"And you can't say we've"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1524.802,"endTime":1528.842,"body":"matured to a system that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1528.952,"endTime":1531.102,"body":"is  universally acceptable."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1531.102,"endTime":1535.452,"body":"Maybe if we start thinking and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1531.102,"endTime":1535.452,"body":"trying to shift the paradigm"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1535.452,"endTime":1540.222,"body":"a little bit more to focus on,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1535.452,"endTime":1540.222,"body":"system design and buildings"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1540.222,"endTime":1544.842,"body":"as safety barriers to prevent"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1540.222,"endTime":1544.842,"body":"a fire of a certain size from"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1544.842,"endTime":1549.432,"body":"occurring, that fits more"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1544.842,"endTime":1549.432,"body":"under the paradigm of say the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1549.432,"endTime":1552.982,"body":"earthquake engineering, there's"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1549.432,"endTime":1552.982,"body":"going to be a risk that you'll"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1552.982,"endTime":1557.302,"body":"have an event that is bigger"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1552.982,"endTime":1557.302,"body":"than what the design of the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1557.302,"endTime":1559.702,"body":"building is intended to achieve."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1560.032,"endTime":1562.822,"body":"But then you're at least"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1560.032,"endTime":1562.822,"body":"in this realm of being able"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1562.822,"endTime":1564.592,"body":"to quantify those risks."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1564.592,"endTime":1568.012,"body":"Because now you're looking at"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1564.592,"endTime":1568.012,"body":"the probability of failure of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1568.012,"endTime":1572.272,"body":"a system that you can control"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1568.012,"endTime":1572.272,"body":"for versus the probability of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1572.272,"endTime":1576.772,"body":"death of an individual for whom"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1572.272,"endTime":1576.772,"body":"you have no hope of ever being"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1576.772,"endTime":1579.672,"body":"able to, individually control."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1580.122,"endTime":1584.367,"body":"And so as a, from a system"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1580.122,"endTime":1584.367,"body":"design perspective, you're"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1584.367,"endTime":1588.417,"body":"still going to achieve the same"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1584.367,"endTime":1588.417,"body":"outcome of limiting the size"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1588.417,"endTime":1591.717,"body":"of the fire, limiting damage"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1588.417,"endTime":1591.717,"body":"to the building, increasing the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1592.047,"endTime":1597.297,"body":"probability of people reaching,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1592.047,"endTime":1597.297,"body":"a safe place and saving lives."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1597.327,"endTime":1601.427,"body":"But, the narrative that you"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1597.327,"endTime":1601.427,"body":"have with the development of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1601.427,"endTime":1604.307,"body":"the regulation, a discussion"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1601.427,"endTime":1604.307,"body":"with the enforcement"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1604.307,"endTime":1608.657,"body":"officials and everyone else"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1604.307,"endTime":1608.657,"body":"changes, and maybe that,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1608.707,"endTime":1613.447,"body":"facilitates better, ability"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1608.707,"endTime":1613.447,"body":"to engineer better solutions."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1614.125,"endTime":1616.975,"body":"I think we"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1614.125,"endTime":1616.975,"body":"are somewhere there in tunnel"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1616.975,"endTime":1621.505,"body":"engineering, because, and the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1616.975,"endTime":1621.505,"body":"reason for that is that it, it's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1621.505,"endTime":1625.045,"body":"very obvious that at some point"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1621.505,"endTime":1625.045,"body":"you reach a design scenario,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1625.045,"endTime":1628.045,"body":"which is impossible to manage."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1628.195,"endTime":1631.998,"body":"Like if you have a collision"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1628.195,"endTime":1631.998,"body":"oil tanker with a bus inside"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1631.998,"endTime":1634.938,"body":"the tunnel, the outcome"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1631.998,"endTime":1634.938,"body":"will be multiple fatalities."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1635.208,"endTime":1637.788,"body":"And the only way to prevent"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1635.208,"endTime":1637.788,"body":"this scenario would be to ban"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1637.848,"endTime":1641.328,"body":"traffic in a tunnel, which is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1637.848,"endTime":1641.328,"body":"kind of not the thing you would"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1641.328,"endTime":1642.138,"body":"like to do with the tunnel."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1642.618,"endTime":1645.428,"body":"And, we actually do that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1642.618,"endTime":1645.428,"body":"sometimes to do ban the heavy"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1645.428,"endTime":1649.398,"body":"goods vehicle traffic, and in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1645.428,"endTime":1649.398,"body":"this field, because this outcome"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1649.398,"endTime":1653.778,"body":"is so obvious that there will"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1649.398,"endTime":1653.778,"body":"be some events that have high"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1653.778,"endTime":1657.528,"body":"consequences in terms of loss of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1653.778,"endTime":1657.528,"body":"life and they're impossible to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1657.528,"endTime":1661.028,"body":"prevent, if you want to keep the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1657.528,"endTime":1661.028,"body":"function of your tunnel, this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1661.028,"endTime":1665.858,"body":"concept of risk and managing the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1661.028,"endTime":1665.858,"body":"probability and consequences has"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1665.858,"endTime":1670.568,"body":"led to the definition of, let's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1665.858,"endTime":1670.568,"body":"say, acceptable level of safety"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1670.568,"endTime":1672.068,"body":"in a tunnel for which we design."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1672.068,"endTime":1675.248,"body":"And if we do that we are"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1672.068,"endTime":1675.248,"body":"okay'ish with the fact that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1675.248,"endTime":1678.608,"body":"if a bigger fire happens,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1675.248,"endTime":1678.608,"body":"we are not able to control"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1678.608,"endTime":1680.768,"body":"it because it's too big."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1681.338,"endTime":1683.968,"body":"Is this something that, could"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1681.338,"endTime":1683.968,"body":"be also done for a buildings"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1683.968,"endTime":1687.716,"body":"or buildings are a little more"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1683.968,"endTime":1687.716,"body":"complicated than that, they"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1687.836,"endTime":1689.306,"body":"have multiple functions, right?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1690.053,"endTime":1692.453,"body":"Yeah, but I think"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1690.053,"endTime":1692.453,"body":"we can move in that direction."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1692.483,"endTime":1695.333,"body":"This is where I think bringing"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1692.483,"endTime":1695.333,"body":"in systems thinking and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1695.333,"endTime":1698.963,"body":"social technical systems"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1695.333,"endTime":1698.963,"body":"thinking is really important."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1699.513,"endTime":1702.293,"body":"It's interesting that you"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1699.513,"endTime":1702.293,"body":"mentioned tunnels because I"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1702.293,"endTime":1706.083,"body":"think,  of the I can say this"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1702.293,"endTime":1706.083,"body":"cause they are younger than"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1706.083,"endTime":1710.253,"body":"me, younger researchers who are"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1706.083,"endTime":1710.253,"body":"actually thinking in this way."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1711.083,"endTime":1715.613,"body":"Jonathan Tandler and Henrik"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1711.083,"endTime":1715.613,"body":"Yellen are involved in the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1715.613,"endTime":1719.193,"body":"Nordic project, looking at,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1715.613,"endTime":1719.193,"body":"fire safety and tunnels and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1719.193,"endTime":1722.173,"body":"trying to implement, more"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1719.193,"endTime":1722.173,"body":"systems sinking into the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1722.173,"endTime":1725.163,"body":"fire scenario development"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1722.173,"endTime":1725.163,"body":"and the fire thinking."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1725.163,"endTime":1728.223,"body":"And we've been having"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1725.163,"endTime":1728.223,"body":"some discussions with that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1728.223,"endTime":1731.553,"body":"group and Haukur Ingasson"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1728.223,"endTime":1731.553,"body":"has been involved in Jose"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1731.553,"endTime":1733.773,"body":"Terrero and Ricky Carvel."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1733.773,"endTime":1738.933,"body":"And, just trying to say"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1733.773,"endTime":1738.933,"body":"tunnels are designed as"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1738.993,"endTime":1740.613,"body":"socio-technical systems."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1740.973,"endTime":1744.943,"body":"How can we apply a little"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1740.973,"endTime":1744.943,"body":"bit better fire scenario"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1744.943,"endTime":1748.093,"body":"thinking and fire design"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1744.943,"endTime":1748.093,"body":"thinking within tunnels as"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1748.093,"endTime":1749.713,"body":"socio-technical systems."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1749.743,"endTime":1753.043,"body":"And then for me, the logical"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1749.743,"endTime":1753.043,"body":"extension is how do we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1753.043,"endTime":1755.353,"body":"bring that into buildings?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1755.663,"endTime":1758.243,"body":"And you mentioned buildings"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1755.663,"endTime":1758.243,"body":"being more complex"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1758.243,"endTime":1759.473,"body":"from different uses."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1759.783,"endTime":1764.493,"body":"I think we inherently understand"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1759.783,"endTime":1764.493,"body":"that because we often classify"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1764.493,"endTime":1768.273,"body":"buildings by their use"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1764.493,"endTime":1768.273,"body":"assembly, building industrial"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1768.603,"endTime":1769.323,"body":"warehouse."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1769.863,"endTime":1773.803,"body":"We know that, and we've in a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1769.863,"endTime":1773.803,"body":"way been doing this, but we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1773.883,"endTime":1777.693,"body":"get stuck in how the regulation"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1773.883,"endTime":1777.693,"body":"operates rather than thinking"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1777.693,"endTime":1780.933,"body":"about what the use of that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1777.693,"endTime":1780.933,"body":"building means and how we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1780.933,"endTime":1782.343,"body":"should be designing for it."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1782.683,"endTime":1785.653,"body":"So in a way we've taken the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1782.683,"endTime":1785.653,"body":"easy way out of allowing"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1785.653,"endTime":1790.193,"body":"the institutions to define,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1785.653,"endTime":1790.193,"body":"everything about the design"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1790.253,"endTime":1793.573,"body":"and the level of safety and F"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1790.253,"endTime":1793.573,"body":"taking the engineers out of it."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1794.143,"endTime":1797.113,"body":"But that doesn't mean we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1794.143,"endTime":1797.113,"body":"can't get back more involved"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1797.113,"endTime":1800.273,"body":"and look at these issues"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1797.113,"endTime":1800.273,"body":"on these different complex"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1801.083,"endTime":1805.283,"body":"systems interactions under the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1801.083,"endTime":1805.283,"body":"different building uses and be"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1805.283,"endTime":1808.883,"body":"able to do a better job than"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1805.283,"endTime":1808.883,"body":"we currently are, which I have"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1808.883,"endTime":1810.353,"body":"to say is not a bad job or."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1811.133,"endTime":1814.493,"body":"We're generally doing a good"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1811.133,"endTime":1814.493,"body":"job with new buildings and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1814.493,"endTime":1817.773,"body":"structures, as you say, part"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1814.493,"endTime":1817.773,"body":"of the challenge is how do"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1817.773,"endTime":1820.593,"body":"we take some of this thinking"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1817.773,"endTime":1820.593,"body":"into existing buildings and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1820.593,"endTime":1823.833,"body":"work with the institutions to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1820.593,"endTime":1823.833,"body":"make changes in those areas?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1824.152,"endTime":1825.352,"body":"For"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1824.152,"endTime":1825.352,"body":"us the fire engineers."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1825.352,"endTime":1828.712,"body":"what we do is sometimes we"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1825.352,"endTime":1828.712,"body":"push for unnecessary solutions"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1828.952,"endTime":1831.852,"body":"that do not improve safety"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1828.952,"endTime":1831.852,"body":"at all, but we push for them."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1832.452,"endTime":1836.852,"body":"We put constraints on objectives"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1832.452,"endTime":1836.852,"body":"of other branches, which"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1836.882,"endTime":1841.195,"body":"sometimes, a building is a multi"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1836.882,"endTime":1841.195,"body":"objective system is not just"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1841.225,"endTime":1842.785,"body":"to not kill people in fire."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1843.145,"endTime":1847.345,"body":"It has thermal objectives,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1843.145,"endTime":1847.345,"body":"it has acoustic objectives,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1847.705,"endTime":1849.715,"body":"it has health objectives."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1849.805,"endTime":1852.595,"body":"It must provide comfort"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1849.805,"endTime":1852.595,"body":"to the occupants."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1852.925,"endTime":1856.375,"body":"It's a multi objective system"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1852.925,"endTime":1856.375,"body":"and sometimes pushing for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1856.375,"endTime":1859.555,"body":"some solutions of fire safety,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1856.375,"endTime":1859.555,"body":"put extreme constraints on"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1859.555,"endTime":1862.555,"body":"the other branches where a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1859.555,"endTime":1862.555,"body":"problem could be solved in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1862.555,"endTime":1865.915,"body":"a different way, maybe not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1862.555,"endTime":1865.915,"body":"putting these constraints."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1865.995,"endTime":1869.565,"body":"That's a thing that when I"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1865.995,"endTime":1869.565,"body":"think about how we can improve."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1870.36,"endTime":1873.72,"body":"Like we are already designing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1870.36,"endTime":1873.72,"body":"pretty safe buildings."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1873.91,"endTime":1877.06,"body":"Sometimes we fail and you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1873.91,"endTime":1877.06,"body":"can see that on television"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1877.06,"endTime":1878.41,"body":"when the building burns down."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1878.68,"endTime":1881.05,"body":"Especially facades come"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1878.68,"endTime":1881.05,"body":"to my mind as the first"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1881.05,"endTime":1882.1,"body":"example of where we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1882.688,"endTime":1885.628,"body":"recently,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1882.688,"endTime":1885.628,"body":"for example, every"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1886.2,"endTime":1887.75,"body":"it's so often  that this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1887.75,"endTime":1888.83,"body":"major events happen."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1889.26,"endTime":1891.62,"body":"And this obviously are"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1889.26,"endTime":1891.62,"body":"indication that there"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1891.66,"endTime":1892.69,"body":"are places where we fail."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1892.7,"endTime":1895.03,"body":"But generally as a professional,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1892.7,"endTime":1895.03,"body":"we're doing quite a good"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1895.69,"endTime":1900.28,"body":"job of providing a safety,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1895.69,"endTime":1900.28,"body":"especially that most decisions"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1900.28,"endTime":1904.39,"body":"related to fire safety are"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1900.28,"endTime":1904.39,"body":"taken by non-fire stakeholders."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1904.39,"endTime":1904.66,"body":"Like."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1905.05,"endTime":1906.85,"body":"it's not the fire safety"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1905.05,"endTime":1906.85,"body":"engineer who takes the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1906.85,"endTime":1911.38,"body":"majority of the decisions"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1906.85,"endTime":1911.38,"body":"and how you fit this."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1911.462,"endTime":1914.492,"body":"other people in this process,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1911.462,"endTime":1914.492,"body":"because I think it's naive"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1914.492,"endTime":1918.092,"body":"to think that a fire safety"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1914.492,"endTime":1918.092,"body":"engineers can solve that by"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1918.362,"endTime":1921.052,"body":"having a better fire safety"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1918.362,"endTime":1921.052,"body":"engineering,  framework."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1921.082,"endTime":1923.682,"body":"It will solve some of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1921.082,"endTime":1923.682,"body":"the problems, but without"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1924.072,"endTime":1926.555,"body":"thinking about the other"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1924.072,"endTime":1926.555,"body":"branches, it's not happening."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1927.023,"endTime":1927.353,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1927.403,"endTime":1932.623,"body":"Again, it's an attribute of this"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1927.403,"endTime":1932.623,"body":"complex socio-technical system."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1933.233,"endTime":1937.193,"body":"When we think about for"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1933.233,"endTime":1937.193,"body":"building design and how the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1937.193,"endTime":1941.093,"body":"building design is done in its"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1937.193,"endTime":1941.093,"body":"technologies, the institutions"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1941.523,"endTime":1945.273,"body":"that control for that and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1941.523,"endTime":1945.273,"body":"the actors, and I would say."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1945.958,"endTime":1950.438,"body":"It works both ways because"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1945.958,"endTime":1950.438,"body":"we've seen, fires in buildings"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1950.618,"endTime":1955.248,"body":"that are attributes of pressure"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1950.618,"endTime":1955.248,"body":"being put on other objectives,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1955.248,"endTime":1958.428,"body":"like energy performance,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1955.248,"endTime":1958.428,"body":"over fire performance."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1958.788,"endTime":1963.558,"body":"And then the decisions being"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1958.788,"endTime":1963.558,"body":"made by either owners or"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1963.558,"endTime":1968.018,"body":"regulatory officials who are"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1963.558,"endTime":1968.018,"body":"unsure of the impacts and the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1968.018,"endTime":1972.188,"body":"fire safety engineer actually"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1968.018,"endTime":1972.188,"body":"has no role in, in trying to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1972.188,"endTime":1974.588,"body":"help identify the challenge."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1974.948,"endTime":1980.218,"body":"So this whole a core part of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1974.948,"endTime":1980.218,"body":"the problem there is that we as"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1981.433,"endTime":1985.303,"body":"I guess an industry failed to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1981.433,"endTime":1985.303,"body":"look at holistically buildings"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1985.303,"endTime":1990.133,"body":"as complex systems of systems"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1985.303,"endTime":1990.133,"body":"and we do design in silos."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1990.643,"endTime":1994.783,"body":"So there is the energy engineers"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1990.643,"endTime":1994.783,"body":"and in one silo, the structural"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1994.783,"endTime":1998.503,"body":"engineers and another silo,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1994.783,"endTime":1998.503,"body":"the fire engineers and another,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1999.073,"endTime":2001.923,"body":"they don't talk to each"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":1999.073,"endTime":2001.923,"body":"other as much as they should."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2002.403,"endTime":2005.553,"body":"You know, the architect is"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2002.403,"endTime":2005.553,"body":"trying to develop a design,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2005.993,"endTime":2009.383,"body":"it's become so complex and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2005.993,"endTime":2009.383,"body":"multi-disciplinary that,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2009.433,"endTime":2011.803,"body":"a single responsibility"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2009.433,"endTime":2011.803,"body":"for integrating the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2011.803,"endTime":2013.783,"body":"design is difficult."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2014.703,"endTime":2017.583,"body":"And the regulations get"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2014.703,"endTime":2017.583,"body":"built in that same way."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2017.913,"endTime":2020.073,"body":"So you have the energy"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2017.913,"endTime":2020.073,"body":"performance of buildings,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2020.073,"endTime":2023.643,"body":"regulation telling you to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2020.073,"endTime":2023.643,"body":"put more insulation in,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2023.943,"endTime":2027.363,"body":"who's checking that you're"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2023.943,"endTime":2027.363,"body":"looking at the combustibility"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2027.363,"endTime":2029.793,"body":"of that insulation or"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2027.363,"endTime":2029.793,"body":"the protection needed."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2030.093,"endTime":2034.293,"body":"If you use a combustible"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2030.093,"endTime":2034.293,"body":"material to achieve"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2034.293,"endTime":2035.343,"body":"the level of safety."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2035.763,"endTime":2038.783,"body":"So you keep asking for"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2035.763,"endTime":2038.783,"body":"more to be done through"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2038.783,"endTime":2043.323,"body":"regulation and legislation,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2038.783,"endTime":2043.323,"body":"less to be done by design"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2043.323,"endTime":2045.873,"body":"teams because you're trying"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2043.323,"endTime":2045.873,"body":"to control the costs there."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2046.173,"endTime":2049.993,"body":"And you miss this whole, systems"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2046.173,"endTime":2049.993,"body":"thinking and optimization"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2049.993,"endTime":2052.493,"body":"that can be done when"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2049.993,"endTime":2052.493,"body":"everybody's working together."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2053.033,"endTime":2056.693,"body":"And of course,  the financial"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2053.033,"endTime":2056.693,"body":"constraints on that are often"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2056.693,"endTime":2061.283,"body":"what dryers these issues anyway,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2056.693,"endTime":2061.283,"body":"because nobody wants to spend"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2061.283,"endTime":2065.478,"body":"the money to do a better job"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2061.283,"endTime":2065.478,"body":"because they're always looking"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2065.478,"endTime":2070.318,"body":"at the short-term gains rather"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2065.478,"endTime":2070.318,"body":"than the,  long-term benefits"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2070.378,"endTime":2073.288,"body":"of overall building performance."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2073.828,"endTime":2077.788,"body":"And so it's in addition to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2073.828,"endTime":2077.788,"body":"the social technical systems"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2077.788,"endTime":2082.858,"body":"thinking it's this real need"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2077.788,"endTime":2082.858,"body":"for holistic view on things."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2082.858,"endTime":2086.288,"body":"And you know, some of the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2082.858,"endTime":2086.288,"body":"work that I was able to do"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2086.288,"endTime":2090.278,"body":"with Patrick van Hees in"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2086.288,"endTime":2090.278,"body":"Lund University on trying"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2090.278,"endTime":2093.158,"body":"to look more holistically"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2090.278,"endTime":2093.158,"body":"at facade designs is just"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2093.158,"endTime":2095.218,"body":"a microcosm of the problem."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2095.518,"endTime":2097.018,"body":"If you have pressures to."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2097.518,"endTime":2101.628,"body":"Do energy performance and over"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2097.518,"endTime":2101.628,"body":"override the pressures for"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2101.628,"endTime":2104.568,"body":"fire performance or guests,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2101.628,"endTime":2104.568,"body":"what the fire performance"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2104.568,"endTime":2105.798,"body":"will fall to the bottom."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2106.218,"endTime":2108.678,"body":"And then that's when"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2106.218,"endTime":2108.678,"body":"you start to see the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2108.678,"endTime":2110.598,"body":"challenges in the system."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2111.198,"endTime":2113.808,"body":"And then I think an added"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2111.198,"endTime":2113.808,"body":"complexity goes back to your"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2113.808,"endTime":2118.188,"body":"comment of a few minutes ago"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2113.808,"endTime":2118.188,"body":"about existing buildings."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2118.518,"endTime":2121.158,"body":"There's more to be done"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2118.518,"endTime":2121.158,"body":"on energy retrofits of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2121.158,"endTime":2124.128,"body":"buildings, which can"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2121.158,"endTime":2124.128,"body":"often be extra regulatory."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2124.518,"endTime":2130.278,"body":"And so if the fire engineer is"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2124.518,"endTime":2130.278,"body":"not involved in the fire service"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2130.278,"endTime":2134.478,"body":"or regulatory enforcement,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2130.278,"endTime":2134.478,"body":"people are not involved looking"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2134.478,"endTime":2138.558,"body":"at fire aspects when an energy"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2134.478,"endTime":2138.558,"body":"retrofit is done, there's no way"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2138.558,"endTime":2145.188,"body":"to even catch the possibility of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2138.558,"endTime":2145.188,"body":"an unsafe system configuration"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2145.188,"endTime":2146.508,"body":"being put in the place."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2146.928,"endTime":2150.258,"body":"So this goes back to this,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2146.928,"endTime":2150.258,"body":"how does the whole system have"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2150.258,"endTime":2154.648,"body":"to operate better performance"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2150.258,"endTime":2154.648,"body":"and existing buildings."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2154.978,"endTime":2157.138,"body":"I think there are some"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2154.978,"endTime":2157.138,"body":"mechanisms that could be"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2157.138,"endTime":2161.608,"body":"explored, but if you're"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2157.138,"endTime":2161.608,"body":"requiring people to do,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2161.698,"endTime":2164.218,"body":"I don't know, a seismic"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2161.698,"endTime":2164.218,"body":"retrofit in New Zealand or"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2164.218,"endTime":2166.948,"body":"an energy retrofit in Poland."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2166.948,"endTime":2170.008,"body":"And you're not asking to have"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2166.948,"endTime":2170.008,"body":"the fire system looked at the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2170.008,"endTime":2174.118,"body":"same time, you're creating"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2170.008,"endTime":2174.118,"body":"the potential for problems"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2174.118,"endTime":2178.118,"body":"where none existed or maybe"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2174.118,"endTime":2178.118,"body":"amplifying a problem that is"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2178.118,"endTime":2181.598,"body":"put into place by the change"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2178.118,"endTime":2181.598,"body":"you're making to the building."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2181.958,"endTime":2186.158,"body":"So it's not an easy"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2181.958,"endTime":2186.158,"body":"challenge by any stretch."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2187.075,"endTime":2188.935,"body":"An"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2187.075,"endTime":2188.935,"body":"interesting thing in what"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2188.935,"endTime":2193.235,"body":"you've said is where to place"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2188.935,"endTime":2193.235,"body":"the boundary between the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2193.265,"endTime":2197.975,"body":"design of this particular"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2193.265,"endTime":2197.975,"body":"building and a whole system,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2198.005,"endTime":2201.245,"body":"like the whole legal system"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2198.005,"endTime":2201.245,"body":"of how buildings are built"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2201.245,"endTime":2202.805,"body":"in this place of the world."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2203.315,"endTime":2206.165,"body":"Because as you mentioned that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2203.315,"endTime":2206.165,"body":"some things shouldn't be like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2206.165,"endTime":2209.859,"body":"brought up, maybe put in into"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2206.165,"endTime":2209.859,"body":"jurisdiction legally enforced."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2210.129,"endTime":2212.769,"body":"But that's also the things"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2210.129,"endTime":2212.769,"body":"that we often try to escape"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2212.769,"endTime":2215.989,"body":"with, with PBD approach, to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2212.769,"endTime":2215.989,"body":"show that there are other ways"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2215.989,"endTime":2217.549,"body":"to secure the same objectives."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2217.579,"endTime":2219.679,"body":"If we eventually"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2217.579,"endTime":2219.679,"body":"have an objective."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2219.959,"endTime":2225.013,"body":"So is there a good way when"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2219.959,"endTime":2225.013,"body":"let's say them individuality"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2225.013,"endTime":2229.233,"body":"of building ends, that it must"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2225.013,"endTime":2229.233,"body":"be, taken to an upper layer or"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2229.233,"endTime":2233.303,"body":"maybe we should not think  in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2229.233,"endTime":2233.303,"body":"this way and just generalize"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2233.303,"endTime":2235.613,"body":"the objectives, like what"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2233.303,"endTime":2235.613,"body":"we really want the buildings"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2235.613,"endTime":2238.733,"body":"to be in and give the full"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2235.613,"endTime":2238.733,"body":"freedom at the building level."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2239.233,"endTime":2240.673,"body":"It's"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2239.233,"endTime":2240.673,"body":"a good question."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2240.673,"endTime":2244.133,"body":"And I've been happened to,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2240.673,"endTime":2244.133,"body":"I've been doing some work  the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2244.133,"endTime":2248.873,"body":"last a year or two with Sweden,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2244.133,"endTime":2248.873,"body":"thinking about how to redo their"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2248.873,"endTime":2252.813,"body":"building regulations and, having"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2248.873,"endTime":2252.813,"body":"discussions with different"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2252.813,"endTime":2254.403,"body":"stakeholder groups there."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2254.403,"endTime":2260.603,"body":"And, one thing that really for"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2254.403,"endTime":2260.603,"body":"me is become more apparent  in"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2260.603,"endTime":2264.983,"body":"recent years is that, we really"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2260.603,"endTime":2264.983,"body":"should be changing the whole"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2264.983,"endTime":2270.413,"body":"regulatory system to what I"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2264.983,"endTime":2270.413,"body":"call a user-focused system,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2271.163,"endTime":2275.933,"body":"as opposed to a building"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2271.163,"endTime":2275.933,"body":"focused system or really a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2275.933,"endTime":2278.513,"body":"compliance focused approach."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2279.023,"endTime":2283.283,"body":"And so if you can envision"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2279.023,"endTime":2283.283,"body":"a little bit how the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2283.958,"endTime":2285.728,"body":"building process works."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2286.208,"endTime":2291.758,"body":"The whole design environment"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2286.208,"endTime":2291.758,"body":"is aimed at, trying to,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2292.098,"endTime":2295.488,"body":"design a building that will"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2292.098,"endTime":2295.488,"body":"achieve regulatory compliance."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2295.548,"endTime":2298.218,"body":"And then we don't care so much"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2295.548,"endTime":2298.218,"body":"what happens for the building"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2298.218,"endTime":2302.988,"body":"in use, but the building owners"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2298.218,"endTime":2302.988,"body":"and the tenants of buildings"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2303.408,"endTime":2307.078,"body":"are all focused on, how the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2303.408,"endTime":2307.078,"body":"building will work for them."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2307.558,"endTime":2312.448,"body":"And we're not really taking this"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2307.558,"endTime":2312.448,"body":"user center life cycle focus"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2312.448,"endTime":2314.668,"body":"of the building into account."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2315.028,"endTime":2317.578,"body":"So if you go back to the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2315.028,"endTime":2317.578,"body":"regulations at the highest"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2317.578,"endTime":2322.388,"body":"level and say the objectives"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2317.578,"endTime":2322.388,"body":"should be at targeted for."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2323.378,"endTime":2326.138,"body":"How the users use the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2323.378,"endTime":2326.138,"body":"building, how the building"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2326.138,"endTime":2329.498,"body":"should be maintained, what"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2326.138,"endTime":2329.498,"body":"their lifespan should be."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2329.898,"endTime":2334.368,"body":"How you are going to deal with"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2329.898,"endTime":2334.368,"body":"the end of life of building and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2334.368,"endTime":2338.298,"body":"have that as your objective,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2334.368,"endTime":2338.298,"body":"that makes a complete different"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2338.418,"endTime":2340.728,"body":"approach to building design."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2341.088,"endTime":2344.388,"body":"Then if you're looking for"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2341.088,"endTime":2344.388,"body":"regulatory compliance at"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2344.388,"endTime":2346.908,"body":"the time, you hand over"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2344.388,"endTime":2346.908,"body":"the building to the user."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2347.508,"endTime":2352.068,"body":"So we focus on 1% of the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2347.508,"endTime":2352.068,"body":"life of the building, getting"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2352.068,"endTime":2355.248,"body":"somebody in the door and then"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2352.068,"endTime":2355.248,"body":"everybody else has to deal"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2355.248,"endTime":2357.738,"body":"with the problems  of the next"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2355.248,"endTime":2357.738,"body":"hundred years of how they're"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2357.738,"endTime":2358.728,"body":"going to use the building."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2358.728,"endTime":2359.868,"body":"It's crazy."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2360.448,"endTime":2361.818,"body":"Do"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2360.448,"endTime":2361.818,"body":"you think we have a good"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2361.818,"endTime":2366.908,"body":"idea how to upgrade this,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2361.818,"endTime":2366.908,"body":"design fire approach we have"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2367.328,"endTime":2369.428,"body":"to better work with this."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2369.508,"endTime":2372.778,"body":"Let's say objective based"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2369.508,"endTime":2372.778,"body":"design, because for now"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2373.038,"endTime":2375.708,"body":"when I'm designing a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2373.038,"endTime":2375.708,"body":"fire, I take a standard."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2376.308,"endTime":2376.578,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2376.578,"endTime":2377.298,"body":"Five megawatts."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2377.298,"endTime":2377.688,"body":"Nice."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2378.048,"endTime":2379.338,"body":"And, and I place it in there."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2379.578,"endTime":2382.158,"body":"And in, in one of your"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2379.578,"endTime":2382.158,"body":"communications, you wrote"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2382.188,"endTime":2387.638,"body":"it this, it's not great that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2382.188,"endTime":2387.638,"body":"in many cases that there is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2387.718,"endTime":2391.678,"body":"this linked between the fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2387.718,"endTime":2391.678,"body":"scenarios and design fires,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2392.038,"endTime":2396.222,"body":"where they are inextricably"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2392.038,"endTime":2396.222,"body":"linked, and that's a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2396.462,"endTime":2399.185,"body":"reformed concept that you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2396.462,"endTime":2399.185,"body":"have to link them together."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2399.485,"endTime":2402.645,"body":"So I see that there needs to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2399.485,"endTime":2402.645,"body":"be shift also in this, to move"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2402.645,"endTime":2404.175,"body":"forward that the whole thing,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2404.255,"endTime":2404.645,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2404.645,"endTime":2408.635,"body":"Getting, specifically to that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2404.645,"endTime":2408.635,"body":"issue and then, kind of the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2409.295,"endTime":2412.895,"body":"back to the vision zero  or"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2409.295,"endTime":2412.895,"body":"the safety barrier concept."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2413.705,"endTime":2418.835,"body":"If the aim is to put a building"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2413.705,"endTime":2418.835,"body":"performance and building fire"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2418.835,"endTime":2422.405,"body":"safety systems into place to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2418.835,"endTime":2422.405,"body":"achieve a certain objective"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2423.058,"endTime":2425.797,"body":"care so much that you have"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2423.058,"endTime":2425.797,"body":"to model the probability"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2425.797,"endTime":2430.147,"body":"of each ignition source or"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2425.797,"endTime":2430.147,"body":"the evolution of a fire,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2430.527,"endTime":2432.867,"body":"to a very specific degree."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2433.137,"endTime":2436.017,"body":"What you need to know is what"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2433.137,"endTime":2436.017,"body":"is the fire insult that is"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2436.017,"endTime":2439.227,"body":"going to cause unaccepted"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2436.017,"endTime":2439.227,"body":"performance of the system,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2439.707,"endTime":2444.047,"body":"or what fire characteristics"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2439.707,"endTime":2444.047,"body":"are needed to assess the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2444.467,"endTime":2446.117,"body":"performance of those systems?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2446.537,"endTime":2449.237,"body":"So again, why are we going"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2446.537,"endTime":2449.237,"body":"through this complicated,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2449.637,"endTime":2454.657,"body":"analysis to, to develop a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2449.637,"endTime":2454.657,"body":"fire that, we can say, history"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2454.657,"endTime":2459.957,"body":"has shown us that if we have"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2454.657,"endTime":2459.957,"body":"a 10 Megawatt fire and this"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2459.957,"endTime":2465.757,"body":"system, no, we have a 20"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2459.957,"endTime":2465.757,"body":"minute rated door it's likely"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2465.757,"endTime":2467.897,"body":"to fail, at a certain point."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2468.047,"endTime":2470.927,"body":"So we need to make that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2468.047,"endTime":2470.927,"body":"system more robust."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2471.497,"endTime":2475.187,"body":"Or if we're producing X"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2471.497,"endTime":2475.187,"body":"amount of fire effluent, we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2475.187,"endTime":2479.257,"body":"need,  smoke exhaust or other"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2475.187,"endTime":2479.257,"body":"system of a certain size."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2479.647,"endTime":2484.407,"body":"So at a point that becomes less"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2479.647,"endTime":2484.407,"body":"of an emphasis on doing, too"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2484.407,"endTime":2489.007,"body":"much detailed scenario analysis"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2484.407,"endTime":2489.007,"body":"and more on thinking of, what"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2489.007,"endTime":2493.387,"body":"is the load against which the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2489.007,"endTime":2493.387,"body":"building has to resist and the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2493.387,"endTime":2497.367,"body":"individual fire safety systems,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2493.387,"endTime":2497.367,"body":"I don't think, earthquake"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2497.367,"endTime":2501.757,"body":"engineering is running, a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2497.367,"endTime":2501.757,"body":"whole range of scenarios."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2501.757,"endTime":2504.217,"body":"Like we are, they're looking"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2501.757,"endTime":2504.217,"body":"at the maximum considered"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2504.217,"endTime":2507.547,"body":"earthquake and maybe one or"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2504.217,"endTime":2507.547,"body":"two other earthquakes, why"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2507.547,"endTime":2510.907,"body":"are we not looking at the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2507.547,"endTime":2510.907,"body":"maximum considered fire and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2510.907,"endTime":2512.617,"body":"how the systems will perform?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2513.047,"endTime":2516.157,"body":"We're maybe not optimizing"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2513.047,"endTime":2516.157,"body":"in the right location."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2517.174,"endTime":2519.534,"body":"And do"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2517.174,"endTime":2519.534,"body":"you think that, generic fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2519.534,"endTime":2524.574,"body":"safety engineer is fit to,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2519.534,"endTime":2524.574,"body":"to do this kind of thinking."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2524.874,"endTime":2528.364,"body":"Maybe educated fire safety"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2524.874,"endTime":2528.364,"body":"engineer would be, but many"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2528.364,"endTime":2531.404,"body":"times the shoes of fire engineer"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2528.364,"endTime":2531.404,"body":"are taken by someone who's not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2531.464,"endTime":2534.134,"body":"a trained fire engineer, but"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2531.464,"endTime":2534.134,"body":"they have to do take decisions."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2534.284,"endTime":2534.614,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2535.094,"endTime":2537.804,"body":", if that person takes a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2535.094,"endTime":2537.804,"body":"bad decision, then, the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2537.804,"endTime":2539.694,"body":"whole concept is in ruin."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2539.934,"endTime":2545.624,"body":"So to what extent should this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2539.934,"endTime":2545.624,"body":"go up to the legislation or be"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2545.624,"endTime":2547.704,"body":"remained free, for the designer."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2547.704,"endTime":2549.854,"body":"And it's something that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2547.704,"endTime":2549.854,"body":"comes to my mind is the New"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2549.854,"endTime":2551.924,"body":"Zealand approach with, the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2549.854,"endTime":2551.924,"body":"method they have with the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2551.954,"endTime":2553.544,"body":"scenarios to, to be considered."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2553.574,"endTime":2556.404,"body":"And I think some concepts"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2553.574,"endTime":2556.404,"body":"like that were also in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2556.454,"endTime":2558.767,"body":"Sweden, for smoke control,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2556.454,"endTime":2558.767,"body":"to define this scenarios."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2559.547,"endTime":2559.877,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2559.877,"endTime":2562.667,"body":"It's in the Swedish"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2559.877,"endTime":2562.667,"body":"building code currently."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2562.667,"endTime":2567.297,"body":"It's also in the Japanese"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2562.667,"endTime":2567.297,"body":"system, there's a variety"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2567.297,"endTime":2571.263,"body":"of systems around the world"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2567.297,"endTime":2571.263,"body":"that have, the scenario"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2571.263,"endTime":2574.353,"body":"considerations built in"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2571.263,"endTime":2574.353,"body":"fires and sometimes even"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2574.353,"endTime":2577.863,"body":"the calculation methods"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2574.353,"endTime":2577.863,"body":"that you should use,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2578.353,"endTime":2579.523,"body":"when addressing them."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2580.273,"endTime":2583.663,"body":"And again, this is, part of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2580.273,"endTime":2583.663,"body":"the bigger picture thinking."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2583.67,"endTime":2587.75,"body":"Some of it I think should"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2583.67,"endTime":2587.75,"body":"be legislated, but the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2587.75,"endTime":2592.7,"body":"legislation has to consider"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2587.75,"endTime":2592.7,"body":"the objectives of the building."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2593.18,"endTime":2596.58,"body":"And if it doesn't, then, you"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2593.18,"endTime":2596.58,"body":"can't expect a legislator"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2596.58,"endTime":2600.27,"body":"to make a decision on what's"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2596.58,"endTime":2600.27,"body":"inappropriate fire size or a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2600.27,"endTime":2603.98,"body":"fire scenario should be, so you"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2600.27,"endTime":2603.98,"body":"still have to work together."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2604.01,"endTime":2608.56,"body":"The fire engineers and the,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2604.01,"endTime":2608.56,"body":"the policy makers and the other"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2608.56,"endTime":2610.72,"body":"actors in sorting that out."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2611.79,"endTime":2616.15,"body":"But if we go to more of  a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2611.79,"endTime":2616.15,"body":"system safety approach, we can"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2616.18,"endTime":2618.64,"body":"jointly develop what those."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2619.14,"endTime":2621.21,"body":"Threats need to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2619.14,"endTime":2621.21,"body":"be to a building."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2621.81,"endTime":2625.27,"body":"And I think we have to do a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2621.81,"endTime":2625.27,"body":"better job of educating,  fire"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2625.27,"endTime":2628.42,"body":"safety engineers on how to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2625.27,"endTime":2628.42,"body":"work with that way of thinking."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2628.93,"endTime":2631.92,"body":"And for me, I really,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2628.93,"endTime":2631.92,"body":"another big part of the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2631.92,"endTime":2637.03,"body":"problem is too many,  ill"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2631.92,"endTime":2637.03,"body":"equipped, improperly educated"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2637.03,"endTime":2641.08,"body":"or trained people, making"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2637.03,"endTime":2641.08,"body":"fire engineering decisions."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2641.08,"endTime":2643.45,"body":"It's not just legislators"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2641.08,"endTime":2643.45,"body":"and others who don't"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2643.45,"endTime":2644.38,"body":"have the background."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2645.01,"endTime":2650.14,"body":"It's people on the ground doing"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2645.01,"endTime":2650.14,"body":"the analysis or purporting to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2650.14,"endTime":2654.09,"body":"be able to do the analysis who"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2650.14,"endTime":2654.09,"body":"don't have the capabilities."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2654.09,"endTime":2658.64,"body":"And I think that's a bigger"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2654.09,"endTime":2658.64,"body":"problem today that  it's"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2658.66,"endTime":2661.09,"body":"not the people who really"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2658.66,"endTime":2661.09,"body":"can do good modeling and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2661.09,"endTime":2664.21,"body":"good fire safety engineering"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2661.09,"endTime":2664.21,"body":"or creating bad buildings."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2664.57,"endTime":2667.51,"body":"It's the bad actors who really"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2664.57,"endTime":2667.51,"body":"don't know what they're doing"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2667.51,"endTime":2672.57,"body":"are creating unsafe, buildings"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2667.51,"endTime":2672.57,"body":"that when fail are making fire"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2672.57,"endTime":2674.34,"body":"safety engineering look bad."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2674.94,"endTime":2677.55,"body":"But that's also another part"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2674.94,"endTime":2677.55,"body":"of the system because a lot"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2677.55,"endTime":2681.05,"body":"of countries don't require,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2677.55,"endTime":2681.05,"body":"engineers to be licensed"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2681.05,"endTime":2683.3,"body":"or registered or chartered."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2683.3,"endTime":2686.03,"body":"And you can be a fire"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2683.3,"endTime":2686.03,"body":"engineer if you want to call"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2686.03,"endTime":2687.38,"body":"yourself a fire engineer."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2687.74,"endTime":2692.78,"body":"So again, holistically, the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2687.74,"endTime":2692.78,"body":"system has a lot of challenges"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2692.78,"endTime":2696.24,"body":"that, that, currently work"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2692.78,"endTime":2696.24,"body":"against people who are trying to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2696.24,"endTime":2699.03,"body":"do the design in the right way."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2699.978,"endTime":2701.508,"body":"I think"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2699.978,"endTime":2701.508,"body":"you have to also take into"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2701.508,"endTime":2704.328,"body":"account economical pressure"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2701.508,"endTime":2704.328,"body":"in the building process"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2704.718,"endTime":2707.998,"body":"that, you have this, let's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2704.718,"endTime":2707.998,"body":"say primary objectives of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2708.028,"endTime":2710.518,"body":"building, not collapsing,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2708.028,"endTime":2710.518,"body":"providing fire safety and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2710.518,"endTime":2712.948,"body":"meeting  the fundamental roles"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2710.518,"endTime":2712.948,"body":"of the building should have,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2713.368,"endTime":2716.548,"body":"but then again, the building"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2713.368,"endTime":2716.548,"body":"is built by a stakeholder."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2717.028,"endTime":2721.258,"body":"And that stakeholder has their"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2717.028,"endTime":2721.258,"body":"objective is to finish the build"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2722.098,"endTime":2726.168,"body":"on time and earn money while"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2722.098,"endTime":2726.168,"body":"building that and hopefully"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2726.168,"endTime":2728.748,"body":"not, go into bankruptcy"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2726.168,"endTime":2728.748,"body":"because of the building."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2729.108,"endTime":2733.668,"body":"So often, uh, many decisions"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2729.108,"endTime":2733.668,"body":"will be driven by non-safety"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2733.668,"endTime":2735.048,"body":"factors, but economical factor."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2735.898,"endTime":2739.888,"body":"And,  replacing technologies,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2735.898,"endTime":2739.888,"body":"replacing materials, choosing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2739.888,"endTime":2742.318,"body":"different ways, maybe some"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2739.888,"endTime":2742.318,"body":"changes to the way how"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2742.318,"endTime":2743.428,"body":"the building will be used."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2743.478,"endTime":2745.578,"body":"We've seen that multiple times"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2743.478,"endTime":2745.578,"body":"when officers were turned"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2745.578,"endTime":2749.188,"body":"into apartments or otherwise,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2745.578,"endTime":2749.188,"body":"for example,  and this, uh,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2750.028,"endTime":2752.768,"body":"here it's this competing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2750.028,"endTime":2752.768,"body":"objectives like, well, maybe"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2752.768,"endTime":2755.318,"body":"not competing because I assumed"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2752.768,"endTime":2755.318,"body":"the contractors would also like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2755.318,"endTime":2756.578,"body":"to build the building safe."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2756.608,"endTime":2756.908,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2757.268,"endTime":2760.858,"body":"But, when you have, we're giving"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2757.268,"endTime":2760.858,"body":"this talk in Rotterdam about"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2760.858,"endTime":2765.508,"body":"where we are and someone in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2760.858,"endTime":2765.508,"body":"audience said that the paradigm"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2765.628,"endTime":2769.028,"body":"is CATNIP- Cheapest  Available"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2765.628,"endTime":2769.028,"body":"Technology Not Involving"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2769.048,"endTime":2773.171,"body":"Persecution and that's, that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2769.048,"endTime":2773.171,"body":"was like really nailed, When you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2773.171,"endTime":2776.031,"body":"were, you close yourself in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2773.171,"endTime":2776.031,"body":"fire safety engineering offices,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2776.031,"endTime":2779.661,"body":"it's often this, atmosphere of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2776.031,"endTime":2779.661,"body":"trying to build a safe building."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2780.171,"endTime":2783.051,"body":"But when you go to the field"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2780.171,"endTime":2783.051,"body":"and go to the construction"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2783.051,"endTime":2786.531,"body":"work, it's often it's becomes"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2783.051,"endTime":2786.531,"body":"purely economical battle."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2786.831,"endTime":2789.771,"body":"So this also is a part of this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2786.831,"endTime":2789.771,"body":"social technical system that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2789.801,"endTime":2790.911,"body":"you're talking about, right?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2790.941,"endTime":2791.301,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2791.301,"endTime":2794.029,"body":"And that, unfortunately"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2791.301,"endTime":2794.029,"body":"that situation exists"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2794.029,"endTime":2795.199,"body":"in a lot of countries."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2795.249,"endTime":2799.159,"body":"I've been involved with New"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2795.249,"endTime":2799.159,"body":"Zealand a bit and Scotland."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2799.849,"endTime":2804.912,"body":"And Scotland over the last"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2799.849,"endTime":2804.912,"body":"few years wanted to try to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2804.912,"endTime":2808.152,"body":"find a way to facilitate more"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2804.912,"endTime":2808.152,"body":"fire safety engineering and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2808.152,"endTime":2809.652,"body":"performance-based design."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2810.192,"endTime":2813.082,"body":"And they recognized"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2810.192,"endTime":2813.082,"body":"that,  there were certain"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2813.082,"endTime":2816.752,"body":"actors that had a race to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2813.082,"endTime":2816.752,"body":"the bottom,  perspective."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2817.082,"endTime":2820.052,"body":"And so the government actually"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2817.082,"endTime":2820.052,"body":"was looking at what kind of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2820.052,"endTime":2824.992,"body":"mechanisms could be,  available"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2820.052,"endTime":2824.992,"body":"to help either raise the, the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2824.992,"endTime":2829.152,"body":"level of knowledge and ability"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2824.992,"endTime":2829.152,"body":"within what they call the  local"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2829.152,"endTime":2832.552,"body":"authority verifier,  who are the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2829.152,"endTime":2832.552,"body":"ones that approve the buildings,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2832.972,"endTime":2837.782,"body":"or even consider a way to put in"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2832.972,"endTime":2837.782,"body":"a national peer review system."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2838.262,"endTime":2844.982,"body":"And so that you put mechanisms"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2838.262,"endTime":2844.982,"body":"in that, help to filter out the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2844.982,"endTime":2850.052,"body":"bad actors by requiring more,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2844.982,"endTime":2850.052,"body":"to be done, putting a higher"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2850.052,"endTime":2854.042,"body":"level of capacity in those"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2850.052,"endTime":2854.042,"body":"people reviewing the design."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2854.052,"endTime":2858.002,"body":"So they're not just,  allowing,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2854.052,"endTime":2858.002,"body":"inappropriate designs to be"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2858.002,"endTime":2862.642,"body":"put through, but then you"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2858.002,"endTime":2862.642,"body":"also have to have,  ethics"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2863.722,"endTime":2867.142,"body":"considerations within the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2863.722,"endTime":2867.142,"body":"design community as well."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2867.922,"endTime":2871.792,"body":"I mean, if it's true that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2867.922,"endTime":2871.792,"body":"every building has a budget"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2871.822,"endTime":2875.302,"body":"and every project has a budget"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2871.822,"endTime":2875.302,"body":"and as an engineer, you have"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2875.302,"endTime":2877.192,"body":"responsibility to your client."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2877.582,"endTime":2880.382,"body":"But, for example, in the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2877.582,"endTime":2880.382,"body":"SFPE Code of Ethics, your"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2880.382,"endTime":2883.592,"body":"responsibility first and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2880.382,"endTime":2883.592,"body":"foremost is to public safety."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2884.432,"endTime":2887.962,"body":"And, sometimes you just have"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2884.432,"endTime":2887.962,"body":"to be willing to say no,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2888.442,"endTime":2894.012,"body":"and that's a tough thing for"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2888.442,"endTime":2894.012,"body":"especially small businesses."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2894.552,"endTime":2897.882,"body":"I'm fortunate that in my point,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2894.552,"endTime":2897.882,"body":"my career, I can just turn"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2897.882,"endTime":2901.372,"body":"down jobs and, it's also one"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2897.882,"endTime":2901.372,"body":"reason I don't do a lot of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2901.372,"endTime":2903.982,"body":"legal work because usually the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2901.372,"endTime":2903.982,"body":"first thing the lawyer asked"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2903.982,"endTime":2907.432,"body":"for is we want to hire you"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2903.982,"endTime":2907.432,"body":"to, to demonstrate our case."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2907.462,"endTime":2909.852,"body":"It's that's not my role."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2909.852,"endTime":2914.502,"body":"The role is to determine whether"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2909.852,"endTime":2914.502,"body":"or not the building is safe or"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2914.502,"endTime":2917.952,"body":"the product is safe or whatever,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2914.502,"endTime":2917.952,"body":"and how to make it better."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2918.432,"endTime":2921.522,"body":"There's this big challenge"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2918.432,"endTime":2921.522,"body":"that if you don't have, again,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2921.522,"endTime":2926.212,"body":"the institutional systems to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2921.522,"endTime":2926.212,"body":"either raise the bar in terms"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2926.212,"endTime":2931.092,"body":"of ethics of the practitioners"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2926.212,"endTime":2931.092,"body":"or put controls on, financier's"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2931.092,"endTime":2935.322,"body":"who are trying to put too much"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2931.092,"endTime":2935.322,"body":"emphasis on cost savings, over"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2935.322,"endTime":2939.432,"body":"safety, all of that has to be"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2935.322,"endTime":2939.432,"body":"taken into account as well."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2939.932,"endTime":2941.732,"body":"And no system will be perfect."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2941.732,"endTime":2945.152,"body":"We know we're going to grapple"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2941.732,"endTime":2945.152,"body":"with these issues, but I think"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2945.182,"endTime":2949.382,"body":"fire safety engineers can do a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2945.182,"endTime":2949.382,"body":"lot just in terms of deciding"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2949.562,"endTime":2953.732,"body":"which projects to take and what"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2949.562,"endTime":2953.732,"body":"they're willing to agree to."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2954.242,"endTime":2956.882,"body":"And, when they are willing"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2954.242,"endTime":2956.882,"body":"to be able to say enough"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2956.882,"endTime":2961.262,"body":"is enough relative to some"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2956.882,"endTime":2961.262,"body":"of the requests that are"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":2961.262,"endTime":2962.702,"body":"put to them by the market."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2963.68,"endTime":2965.21,"body":"If you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2963.68,"endTime":2965.21,"body":"look from a perspective of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2965.21,"endTime":2968.03,"body":"being a fire engineer on"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2965.21,"endTime":2968.03,"body":"your own scrutiny, that's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2968.03,"endTime":2969.14,"body":"probably correct approach."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2969.17,"endTime":2971.75,"body":"But if you look at the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2969.17,"endTime":2971.75,"body":"global ecosystem of building"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2971.8,"endTime":2974.89,"body":"environment, you would like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2971.8,"endTime":2974.89,"body":"every built building be"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2974.89,"endTime":2977.37,"body":"built the same, let's say"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2974.89,"endTime":2977.37,"body":"level of ethical, course."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2977.37,"endTime":2981.4,"body":"So the system should actually"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2977.37,"endTime":2981.4,"body":"not, it should exclude from"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2981.4,"endTime":2984.4,"body":"itself, the ones that do"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2981.4,"endTime":2984.4,"body":"not meet this constraint."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2984.7,"endTime":2985.48,"body":"And okay."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2985.51,"endTime":2988.62,"body":"Previously we've mentioned"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2985.51,"endTime":2988.62,"body":"the, new Zealand's approach"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2988.62,"endTime":2991.23,"body":"with, defining scenarios"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2988.62,"endTime":2991.23,"body":"in, in, in the PBD."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2991.71,"endTime":2994.98,"body":"Now we've mentioned a national"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2991.71,"endTime":2994.98,"body":"peer review systems, and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2995.28,"endTime":2998.76,"body":"let's say authorities being"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2995.28,"endTime":2998.76,"body":"more involved in verifying"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2998.76,"endTime":3000.01,"body":"the scrutiny of the design."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3000.395,"endTime":3004.525,"body":"So if this boundary between the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3000.395,"endTime":3004.525,"body":"competing economical ends and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3004.525,"endTime":3008.455,"body":"safety objectives was crossed"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3004.525,"endTime":3008.455,"body":"in, in, in wrong direction, at"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3008.455,"endTime":3011.905,"body":"what moment it stops being a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3008.455,"endTime":3011.905,"body":"PBD at what moment we are back"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3011.905,"endTime":3013.085,"body":"to the prescriptive system?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3013.185,"endTime":3016.615,"body":"Where's the boundary, because"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3013.185,"endTime":3016.615,"body":"I've heard, some people not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3016.615,"endTime":3019.225,"body":"happy with the New Zealand"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3016.615,"endTime":3019.225,"body":"system of defining the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3019.225,"endTime":3022.245,"body":"scenarios because it takes"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3019.225,"endTime":3022.245,"body":"the possibility of them"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3022.245,"endTime":3026.515,"body":"designing, let's say a perfect"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3022.245,"endTime":3026.515,"body":"scenario for the building."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3026.615,"endTime":3028.595,"body":"I think a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3026.615,"endTime":3028.595,"body":"little bit, this takes us"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3028.835,"endTime":3032.645,"body":"almost full circle back to the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3028.835,"endTime":3032.645,"body":"beginning of the discussion,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3033.095,"endTime":3038.66,"body":"but you know, Regulators are"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3033.095,"endTime":3038.66,"body":"imposing more constraints on"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3038.66,"endTime":3041.99,"body":"the system because they don't"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3038.66,"endTime":3041.99,"body":"have confidence in the fire"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3041.99,"endTime":3045.89,"body":"safety engineers to be able"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3041.99,"endTime":3045.89,"body":"to deliver robust designs,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3045.89,"endTime":3049.64,"body":"because we haven't advanced far"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3045.89,"endTime":3049.64,"body":"enough as a profession to have"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3049.64,"endTime":3053.3,"body":"the robust performance-based"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3049.64,"endTime":3053.3,"body":"engineering methods."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3053.66,"endTime":3057.77,"body":"And we lacked the, in some"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3053.66,"endTime":3057.77,"body":"areas, the ethical constraints"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3057.77,"endTime":3059.93,"body":"to apply appropriately."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3059.93,"endTime":3062.91,"body":"What we do know is"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3059.93,"endTime":3062.91,"body":"right, within the system."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3063.36,"endTime":3065.22,"body":"And so you can think of."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3066.005,"endTime":3068.615,"body":"The regulatory system"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3066.005,"endTime":3068.615,"body":"as a pendulum you'll"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3068.615,"endTime":3070.025,"body":"swing back and forth."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3070.025,"endTime":3073.745,"body":"And in the 1980s and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3070.025,"endTime":3073.745,"body":"nineties, a lot of countries"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3073.745,"endTime":3078.425,"body":"moved to performance-based"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3073.745,"endTime":3078.425,"body":"regulation because of ideas"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3078.435,"endTime":3082.545,"body":"of deregulating by some"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3078.435,"endTime":3082.545,"body":"governments, giving more to the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3082.545,"endTime":3086.745,"body":"market to take responsibility"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3082.545,"endTime":3086.745,"body":"for allowing more innovation."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3087.345,"endTime":3090.045,"body":"And what happens anytime"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3087.345,"endTime":3090.045,"body":"you see a market failure,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3090.175,"endTime":3091.255,"body":"more regulations."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3091.285,"endTime":3094.375,"body":"New Zealand is an example"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3091.285,"endTime":3094.375,"body":"of, they went performance"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3094.405,"endTime":3098.135,"body":"because they thought, the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3094.405,"endTime":3098.135,"body":"maturity was there to, to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3098.135,"endTime":3099.575,"body":"design better buildings."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3099.575,"endTime":3103.475,"body":"And ultimately, they've"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3099.575,"endTime":3103.475,"body":"decided, in not just in fire,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3103.475,"endTime":3106.205,"body":"but they had their moisture"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3103.475,"endTime":3106.205,"body":"issue with the leaky buildings."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3106.205,"endTime":3109.995,"body":"They had found some challenges"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3106.205,"endTime":3109.995,"body":"with, earthquake engineering"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3109.995,"endTime":3114.975,"body":"and they had the, canterbury"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3109.995,"endTime":3114.975,"body":"earthquakes in 2010 and 2011."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3115.305,"endTime":3118.065,"body":"And so there's always a bit of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3115.305,"endTime":3118.065,"body":"system correction where you're"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3118.065,"endTime":3120.835,"body":"trying to, find a way to go."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3120.835,"endTime":3123.655,"body":"And then I think that's"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3120.835,"endTime":3123.655,"body":"what happened for fire."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3124.075,"endTime":3126.175,"body":"Is it because they didn't"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3124.075,"endTime":3126.175,"body":"have a way to really"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3126.175,"endTime":3128.095,"body":"regulate for fire engineers."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3128.395,"endTime":3132.295,"body":"Anyone could call themselves a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3128.395,"endTime":3132.295,"body":"fire engineer, lesser qualified"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3132.295,"endTime":3135.715,"body":"people were taking projects at a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3132.295,"endTime":3135.715,"body":"lower fee and doing, not such a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3135.715,"endTime":3140.005,"body":"good job so that the enforcement"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3135.715,"endTime":3140.005,"body":"officials lacked confidence."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3140.335,"endTime":3144.085,"body":"They said, okay, we'll put in"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3140.335,"endTime":3144.085,"body":"a more prescriptive performance"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3144.085,"endTime":3147.945,"body":"approach as a dampening measure"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3144.085,"endTime":3147.945,"body":"on some of that behavior."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3148.605,"endTime":3153.195,"body":"And so we're going to see more"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3148.605,"endTime":3153.195,"body":"of that until we get our act"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3153.195,"endTime":3157.635,"body":"together in actually developing"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3153.195,"endTime":3157.635,"body":"a more robust approach that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3157.665,"endTime":3160.365,"body":"raises confidence in the market."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3160.395,"endTime":3163.175,"body":"And then this is where,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3160.395,"endTime":3163.175,"body":"I'm trying to think of."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3163.68,"endTime":3167.01,"body":"If we change the focus a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3163.68,"endTime":3167.01,"body":"little bit about what we can"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3167.01,"endTime":3171.59,"body":"actually predict control for"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3167.01,"endTime":3171.59,"body":"and gain confidence in relative"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3171.59,"endTime":3175.88,"body":"to building performance and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3171.59,"endTime":3175.88,"body":"system performance more so"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3175.88,"endTime":3180.6,"body":"than,  how likely we're actually"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3175.88,"endTime":3180.6,"body":"able to predict individual"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3180.6,"endTime":3185.01,"body":"safety or population safety"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3180.6,"endTime":3185.01,"body":"and having that be a subset"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3185.06,"endTime":3187.77,"body":"of building performance,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3185.06,"endTime":3187.77,"body":"maybe that's a mechanism"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3187.77,"endTime":3190.14,"body":"to, to build confidence."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3190.14,"endTime":3193.59,"body":"And, but we have to find what"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3190.14,"endTime":3193.59,"body":"that measure is, are we're going"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3193.59,"endTime":3198.43,"body":"to continue this cycling back"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3193.59,"endTime":3198.43,"body":"and forth as the pendulum swings"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3198.43,"endTime":3201.94,"body":"that, you know, they gave us"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3198.43,"endTime":3201.94,"body":"enough rope to hang ourselves."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3201.99,"endTime":3204.36,"body":"We hung ourselves and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3201.99,"endTime":3204.36,"body":"now they're tightening"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3204.66,"endTime":3205.86,"body":"up things again."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3205.86,"endTime":3209.1,"body":"And what do we have to do"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3205.86,"endTime":3209.1,"body":"to be given more freedom?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3209.13,"endTime":3211.92,"body":"And we don't get more freedom"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3209.13,"endTime":3211.92,"body":"by doing the same things."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3212.483,"endTime":3214.463,"body":"It's not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3212.483,"endTime":3214.463,"body":"the fundamental, issue with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3214.523,"endTime":3217.253,"body":"the designs we're creating"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3214.523,"endTime":3217.253,"body":"or the methods we're using."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3217.253,"endTime":3221.573,"body":"It's also an issue with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3217.253,"endTime":3221.573,"body":"communication trust, maybe"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3221.603,"endTime":3224.123,"body":"clarifying the competencies"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3221.603,"endTime":3224.123,"body":"of actors, right?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3224.173,"endTime":3228.983,"body":"it's not that we will invent a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3224.173,"endTime":3228.983,"body":"new, better model for fire or"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3229.043,"endTime":3232.253,"body":"invent a new tool that everyone"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3229.043,"endTime":3232.253,"body":"will shift to because that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3232.253,"endTime":3235.523,"body":"happened in the past, there was"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3232.253,"endTime":3235.523,"body":"an invention of a zone model."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3235.523,"endTime":3238.453,"body":"In seventies, there was the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3235.523,"endTime":3238.453,"body":"invention of CFD and creation"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3238.453,"endTime":3242.143,"body":"of the FDS, which democratized"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3238.453,"endTime":3242.143,"body":"the powerful abilities of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3242.143,"endTime":3243.403,"body":"numerical calculations."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3244.123,"endTime":3247.333,"body":"And yet the issues with swinging"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3244.123,"endTime":3247.333,"body":"the pendulum has not stopped."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3247.333,"endTime":3250.093,"body":"So it's not the single shift in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3247.333,"endTime":3250.093,"body":"technology that can enable us."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3250.093,"endTime":3252.763,"body":"It's the building,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3250.093,"endTime":3252.763,"body":"the confidence of the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3252.763,"endTime":3253.783,"body":"authorities that we can do."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3253.833,"endTime":3254.913,"body":"Right,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3253.833,"endTime":3254.913,"body":"but that's why it's a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3254.913,"endTime":3256.743,"body":"socio-technical system."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3257.433,"endTime":3260.703,"body":"So, you know, partly I"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3257.433,"endTime":3260.703,"body":"would argue that we've"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3260.703,"endTime":3263.583,"body":"missed the social and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3260.703,"endTime":3263.583,"body":"institutional components"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3263.583,"endTime":3264.993,"body":"for the last 20 years."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3264.993,"endTime":3268.743,"body":"We focused on the technical"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3264.993,"endTime":3268.743,"body":"parts and the advancements in"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3268.743,"endTime":3272.843,"body":"the technology and  again, no"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3268.743,"endTime":3272.843,"body":"offense because I know you're"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3273.273,"endTime":3276.813,"body":"excellent modeler and your"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3273.273,"endTime":3276.813,"body":"knowledge of fire fundamentals"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3276.813,"endTime":3281.943,"body":"is phenomenal, but modeling is"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3276.813,"endTime":3281.943,"body":"not engineering and there's too"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3281.943,"endTime":3288.463,"body":"much today of the model being"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3281.943,"endTime":3288.463,"body":"the tool to design a building."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3288.763,"endTime":3289.663,"body":"An Oracle."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3289.72,"endTime":3291.05,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3289.72,"endTime":3291.05,"body":"that's not the case."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3291.05,"endTime":3296.54,"body":"The model is a tool and if"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3291.05,"endTime":3296.54,"body":"every problem, if the only tool"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3296.54,"endTime":3298.91,"body":"you have is a hammer, every"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3296.54,"endTime":3298.91,"body":"problem looks like a nail."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3299.36,"endTime":3300.42,"body":"And so you."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3301.505,"endTime":3303.935,"body":"Hammering away at, I"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3301.505,"endTime":3303.935,"body":"can model this better"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3303.935,"endTime":3304.895,"body":"and better and better."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3305.075,"endTime":3307.445,"body":"When are we going to get back"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3305.075,"endTime":3307.445,"body":"to talking about engineering?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3309.718,"endTime":3310.588,"body":"Uh, you're right."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3310.588,"endTime":3312.858,"body":"We can add these improvements"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3310.588,"endTime":3312.858,"body":"and this is what they've seen"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3312.858,"endTime":3314.268,"body":"over the course of my career."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3314.568,"endTime":3315.978,"body":"The models are"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3314.568,"endTime":3315.978,"body":"more sophisticated."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3315.978,"endTime":3317.268,"body":"I have more meshes to play."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3317.268,"endTime":3318.948,"body":"I have better turbulence models."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3319.308,"endTime":3322.398,"body":"I've learned a lot on heat"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3319.308,"endTime":3322.398,"body":"transfer, but in essentially"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3322.398,"endTime":3325.248,"body":"the fundamental questions"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3322.398,"endTime":3325.248,"body":"are still the same."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3325.248,"endTime":3329.058,"body":"And I still sometimes fail"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3325.248,"endTime":3329.058,"body":"to answered them because the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3329.058,"endTime":3332.048,"body":"new capabilities of my model"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3329.058,"endTime":3332.048,"body":"didn't resolve the issues."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3332.528,"endTime":3336.318,"body":"And the last thing, which I"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3332.528,"endTime":3336.318,"body":"think it was very interesting"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3336.318,"endTime":3340.458,"body":"in our pre discussion to this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3336.318,"endTime":3340.458,"body":"episode is the pace in which"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3340.458,"endTime":3344.148,"body":"the technology develops,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3340.458,"endTime":3344.148,"body":"because it's also like you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3344.148,"endTime":3347.928,"body":"have to also put all of this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3344.148,"endTime":3347.928,"body":"in the timeframe that's moving."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3348.378,"endTime":3351.968,"body":"You've said a hundred years"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3348.378,"endTime":3351.968,"body":"ahead wonder what we will have"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3351.968,"endTime":3353.258,"body":"and what problems we'll face."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3353.288,"endTime":3357.468,"body":"But even today, if you put a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3353.288,"endTime":3357.468,"body":"new technology on the market,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3358.218,"endTime":3361.098,"body":"you would expect that it will"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3358.218,"endTime":3361.098,"body":"create this positive disruption"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3361.098,"endTime":3364.128,"body":"that, okay, we stopped doing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3361.098,"endTime":3364.128,"body":"what we were doing and we're"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3364.128,"endTime":3366.708,"body":"using this new technology and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3364.128,"endTime":3366.708,"body":"everyone says, it's great."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3367.008,"endTime":3371.178,"body":"Sometimes it's not clicking"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3367.008,"endTime":3371.178,"body":"because of low, let's say"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3371.238,"endTime":3373.398,"body":"economical benefit from"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3371.238,"endTime":3373.398,"body":"putting this new technology."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3373.428,"endTime":3376.658,"body":"So if we cannot earn more money"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3373.428,"endTime":3376.658,"body":"on using this technology, why"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3376.688,"endTime":3379.558,"body":"shift our ways when the old ones"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3376.688,"endTime":3379.558,"body":"are working and are cheaper."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3380.468,"endTime":3383.168,"body":"Or maybe the Authorities will"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3380.468,"endTime":3383.168,"body":"not believe that technology"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3383.168,"endTime":3386.108,"body":"solves an issue and we're"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3383.168,"endTime":3386.108,"body":"failing to communicate like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3386.138,"endTime":3388.928,"body":"what will create this shift,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3386.138,"endTime":3388.928,"body":"or maybe you're putting"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3388.958,"endTime":3391.178,"body":"technology and tools of people"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3388.958,"endTime":3391.178,"body":"who are not ready to use it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3391.598,"endTime":3395.468,"body":"So it's also creating a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3391.598,"endTime":3395.468,"body":"interesting, the social"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3395.468,"endTime":3397.268,"body":"dynamics between the actors."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3398.17,"endTime":3398.53,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3398.53,"endTime":3400.75,"body":"And I think it's"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3398.53,"endTime":3400.75,"body":"all of the above."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3400.99,"endTime":3403.27,"body":"We're putting"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3400.99,"endTime":3403.27,"body":"tools in the hands."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3403.3,"endTime":3406.15,"body":"We're putting sophisticated"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3403.3,"endTime":3406.15,"body":"tools in the hands of people"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3406.63,"endTime":3410.32,"body":"who maybe know how to use a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3406.63,"endTime":3410.32,"body":"tool, but not in the context"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3410.32,"endTime":3414.4,"body":"of the design environment to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3410.32,"endTime":3414.4,"body":"try to achieve an objective,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3414.4,"endTime":3417.55,"body":"that's not well agreed"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3414.4,"endTime":3417.55,"body":"enough between all the actors"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3418.0,"endTime":3419.62,"body":"and you have a problem."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3419.89,"endTime":3424.24,"body":"And when you think about"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3419.89,"endTime":3424.24,"body":"technology introduction,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3424.49,"endTime":3425.93,"body":"there's always a time lag."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3425.96,"endTime":3428.93,"body":"Whoever develops the technology,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3425.96,"endTime":3428.93,"body":"you start promoting it,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3428.93,"endTime":3430.58,"body":"everybody gets excited about it."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3430.94,"endTime":3433.55,"body":"You think it's going to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3430.94,"endTime":3433.55,"body":"solve the world's problems,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3433.55,"endTime":3436.16,"body":"you know, computational"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3433.55,"endTime":3436.16,"body":"modeling for fire effects."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3436.4,"endTime":3437.75,"body":"We can do everything now."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3438.14,"endTime":3438.5,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3438.56,"endTime":3443.18,"body":"Well, We may be think we can"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3438.56,"endTime":3443.18,"body":"do that, but the institutions,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3443.18,"endTime":3447.26,"body":"the approvers, the legislators,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3443.18,"endTime":3447.26,"body":"aren't so sure yet."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3447.71,"endTime":3451.46,"body":"And so you hammer away at"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3447.71,"endTime":3451.46,"body":"it, but the confidence is"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3451.46,"endTime":3455.18,"body":"going down because you're not"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3451.46,"endTime":3455.18,"body":"actually necessarily showing"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3455.18,"endTime":3456.56,"body":"any better performance."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3456.95,"endTime":3459.77,"body":"You're showing that you can"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3456.95,"endTime":3459.77,"body":"do more modeling, but in"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3459.77,"endTime":3462.35,"body":"the end of the day, how much"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3459.77,"endTime":3462.35,"body":"have you actually changed"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3462.35,"endTime":3465.74,"body":"the building design or showed"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3462.35,"endTime":3465.74,"body":"that you're able to create"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3465.74,"endTime":3469.25,"body":"safer buildings and have a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3465.74,"endTime":3469.25,"body":"bigger impact on society?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3469.82,"endTime":3473.3,"body":"Maybe we take our tools and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3469.82,"endTime":3473.3,"body":"instead of doing all the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3473.3,"endTime":3478.03,"body":"modeling you're doing for"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3473.3,"endTime":3478.03,"body":"individual projects, create , a"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3478.05,"endTime":3482.89,"body":"set of what are the what's"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3478.05,"endTime":3482.89,"body":"the design basis, fire what's"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3482.9,"endTime":3486.83,"body":"probability distribution,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3482.9,"endTime":3486.83,"body":"representation of the fires"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3486.83,"endTime":3491.03,"body":"that would impact buildings of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3486.83,"endTime":3491.03,"body":"different types and uses that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3491.03,"endTime":3496.16,"body":"would become a legislative basis"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3491.03,"endTime":3496.16,"body":"for a performance-based design."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3496.19,"endTime":3497.06,"body":"There's still a lot."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3497.06,"endTime":3500.81,"body":"You would have to engineer"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3497.06,"endTime":3500.81,"body":"for the building to get it"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3500.81,"endTime":3505.97,"body":"right, but then it gets away"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3500.81,"endTime":3505.97,"body":"from modeling as being the act"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3505.97,"endTime":3509.81,"body":"of engineering, to modeling,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3505.97,"endTime":3509.81,"body":"being a tool, to understand the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3509.81,"endTime":3514.75,"body":"building performance, to enable"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3509.81,"endTime":3514.75,"body":"better engineering designs."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3515.2,"endTime":3518.89,"body":"And so even within the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3515.2,"endTime":3518.89,"body":"discipline, changing how we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3518.89,"endTime":3523.15,"body":"think about how we approached"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3518.89,"endTime":3523.15,"body":"the problem and giving data"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3523.57,"endTime":3528.97,"body":"to the institutions who don't"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3523.57,"endTime":3528.97,"body":"necessarily have confidence"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3528.97,"endTime":3532.75,"body":"in us to raise the confidence,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3528.97,"endTime":3532.75,"body":"will help us, shift the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3532.75,"endTime":3536.32,"body":"pendulum back to having"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3532.75,"endTime":3536.32,"body":"more engineering freedom"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3536.61,"endTime":3538.44,"body":"particularly when warranted."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3539.01,"endTime":3542.4,"body":"And, I'll go back again"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3539.01,"endTime":3542.4,"body":"to the structural analogy."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3542.85,"endTime":3545.31,"body":"There's a whole lot of buildings"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3542.85,"endTime":3545.31,"body":"that don't require a lot of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3545.34,"endTime":3547.35,"body":"complex structural analysis."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3547.95,"endTime":3552.37,"body":"And, the loads and resistances"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3547.95,"endTime":3552.37,"body":"have been codafide and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3552.79,"endTime":3554.02,"body":"distributions exist."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3554.02,"endTime":3557.92,"body":"We know the load factors"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3554.02,"endTime":3557.92,"body":"and combinations, but."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3558.745,"endTime":3561.205,"body":"And it's, if it's a complex"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3558.745,"endTime":3561.205,"body":"building or a unique"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3561.205,"endTime":3564.895,"body":"building, it does require"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3561.205,"endTime":3564.895,"body":"that engineering analysis."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3565.075,"endTime":3566.935,"body":"So why should fire"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3565.075,"endTime":3566.935,"body":"be any different?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3567.235,"endTime":3571.585,"body":"We haven't gone back to the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3567.235,"endTime":3571.585,"body":"basic buildings with the data"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3571.585,"endTime":3575.395,"body":"to show how you can do it"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3571.585,"endTime":3575.395,"body":"better based on our knowledge."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3575.845,"endTime":3578.845,"body":"And so therefore you haven't"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3575.845,"endTime":3578.845,"body":"built up the confidence that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3579.175,"endTime":3582.445,"body":"when it comes to the complex"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3579.175,"endTime":3582.445,"body":"building, the methodologies"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3582.475,"endTime":3585.745,"body":"are equally applicable"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3582.475,"endTime":3585.745,"body":"to solving the unique and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3585.745,"endTime":3587.155,"body":"innovative challenges."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3587.278,"endTime":3588.908,"body":"In my"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3587.278,"endTime":3588.908,"body":"case, like looking at the case"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3588.908,"endTime":3592.248,"body":"of Poland, I think the issue"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3588.908,"endTime":3592.248,"body":"is that, it's difficult to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3592.248,"endTime":3594.818,"body":"define the middle ground between"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3592.248,"endTime":3594.818,"body":"the two approaches, because a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3594.818,"endTime":3598.058,"body":"it's either a one push two to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3594.818,"endTime":3598.058,"body":"go fully prescriptive and the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3598.058,"endTime":3602.358,"body":"issue of blocking innovation,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3598.058,"endTime":3602.358,"body":"or you would like to go full"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3602.358,"endTime":3605.808,"body":"freedom, which creates all these"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3602.358,"endTime":3605.808,"body":"issues we've discussed before."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3606.228,"endTime":3609.628,"body":"So, the best, like the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3606.228,"endTime":3609.628,"body":"most efficient way, I think"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3609.658,"endTime":3612.528,"body":"from looking at the build"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3609.658,"endTime":3612.528,"body":"environment as a whole system"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3612.828,"endTime":3616.448,"body":"would be a codification of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3612.828,"endTime":3616.448,"body":"standard solutions and a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3616.448,"endTime":3619.898,"body":"clear and easy path to obtain"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3616.448,"endTime":3619.898,"body":"an non-standard solution"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3619.898,"endTime":3621.488,"body":"for a non-standard problem."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3622.348,"endTime":3626.218,"body":"And both of these connected"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3622.348,"endTime":3626.218,"body":"to the same objectives and the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3626.218,"endTime":3630.548,"body":"same, let's say objective level"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3626.218,"endTime":3630.548,"body":"of safety that, is the ultimate"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3630.548,"endTime":3631.808,"body":"goal of the whole system."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3631.808,"endTime":3634.308,"body":"That, that would probably"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3631.808,"endTime":3634.308,"body":"be something of,  good"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3634.308,"endTime":3635.568,"body":"world live in, right."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3637.415,"endTime":3639.305,"body":"But we're"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3637.415,"endTime":3639.305,"body":"lacking in all the areas, right?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3639.305,"endTime":3641.645,"body":"We don't know what that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3639.305,"endTime":3641.645,"body":"objective level of safety"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3641.645,"endTime":3643.115,"body":"is that we're aiming for."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3643.415,"endTime":3646.955,"body":"We haven't taken our engineering"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3643.415,"endTime":3646.955,"body":"knowledge and produced back"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3646.955,"endTime":3650.385,"body":"into the prescriptive, the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3646.955,"endTime":3650.385,"body":"simplified, engineering"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3650.385,"endTime":3653.905,"body":"approach, like, a load and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3650.385,"endTime":3653.905,"body":"resistance factor design for"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3654.145,"endTime":3657.955,"body":"structure that builds that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3654.145,"endTime":3657.955,"body":"baseline confidence that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3657.955,"endTime":3661.005,"body":"you can then go and do the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3657.955,"endTime":3661.005,"body":"unique components with the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3661.005,"endTime":3662.325,"body":"right level of oversight."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3662.715,"endTime":3665.355,"body":"We tried to do everything"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3662.715,"endTime":3665.355,"body":"in the performance realm"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3665.355,"endTime":3669.355,"body":"without feeding back into"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3665.355,"endTime":3669.355,"body":"the prescriptive with, enough"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3669.355,"endTime":3672.235,"body":"engineering, methodologies"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3669.355,"endTime":3672.235,"body":"and approaches, so that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3672.235,"endTime":3673.865,"body":"it's common, right?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3673.895,"endTime":3675.935,"body":"It's still unusual for a lot of."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3676.405,"endTime":3679.765,"body":"Regulators to see the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3676.405,"endTime":3679.765,"body":"engineering analysis we're"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3679.765,"endTime":3683.065,"body":"doing, right whereas in"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3679.765,"endTime":3683.065,"body":"structure it's built in to the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3683.065,"endTime":3684.835,"body":"regulation for simple buildings."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3684.835,"endTime":3689.535,"body":"If we build that, if we do the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3684.835,"endTime":3689.535,"body":"simple analysis, following the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3689.535,"endTime":3693.615,"body":"same process and embedded in"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3689.535,"endTime":3693.615,"body":"the prescriptive approach, then"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3693.615,"endTime":3697.665,"body":"it becomes much easier to show"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3693.615,"endTime":3697.665,"body":"how you're expanding that same"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3698.085,"endTime":3702.735,"body":"principle in that same system to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3698.085,"endTime":3702.735,"body":"a more complex design and taking"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3702.735,"endTime":3707.005,"body":"into account the uncertainties"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3702.735,"endTime":3707.005,"body":"associated with the unknowns"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3707.025,"endTime":3709.935,"body":"and in the innovative design."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3710.445,"endTime":3713.715,"body":"But if we don't give the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3710.445,"endTime":3713.715,"body":"regulators and the enforcers,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3713.715,"endTime":3717.435,"body":"the benchmark understanding"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3713.715,"endTime":3717.435,"body":"of where we're at, why do we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3717.435,"endTime":3720.685,"body":"expect them to,  automatically"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3717.435,"endTime":3720.685,"body":"assume we can do the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3720.685,"endTime":3722.395,"body":"more complex buildings?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3723.033,"endTime":3725.043,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3723.033,"endTime":3725.043,"body":"they also have no clue what"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3725.043,"endTime":3726.443,"body":"is the safety they expect."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3726.453,"endTime":3729.823,"body":"Because there is no, probably"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3726.453,"endTime":3729.823,"body":"there are there exists measures."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3729.853,"endTime":3733.633,"body":"Maybe risk would be one"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3729.853,"endTime":3733.633,"body":"way to quantify  safe"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3733.633,"endTime":3734.793,"body":"let's say of a building."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3735.093,"endTime":3738.173,"body":"But  that's a complicated,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3735.093,"endTime":3738.173,"body":"approach for legislator"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3738.193,"endTime":3739.043,"body":"to go through."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3739.343,"endTime":3742.583,"body":"It's impossible for them to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3739.343,"endTime":3742.583,"body":"do this sort of analysis."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3743.003,"endTime":3744.683,"body":"And then you face issues."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3744.683,"endTime":3747.893,"body":"Like you've mentioned multiple"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3744.683,"endTime":3747.893,"body":"times in there that it's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3747.893,"endTime":3749.773,"body":"difficult to say that the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3747.893,"endTime":3749.773,"body":"person candie in a fire."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3750.088,"endTime":3752.518,"body":"Because there will be a hero"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3750.088,"endTime":3752.518,"body":"that will save her and it's not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3752.548,"endTime":3757.028,"body":"possible to,  we need to prevent"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3752.548,"endTime":3757.028,"body":"that when there are scenarios"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3757.028,"endTime":3758.888,"body":"in which it could happen."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3758.968,"endTime":3762.465,"body":"I also, once naively said that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3758.968,"endTime":3762.465,"body":"today's best, performance based"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3762.465,"endTime":3766.085,"body":"solutions, are the prescriptions"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3762.465,"endTime":3766.085,"body":"for future, but it's not this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3766.085,"endTime":3768.635,"body":"feedback loop is not working"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3766.085,"endTime":3768.635,"body":"like I thought 10 years ago,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3768.882,"endTime":3770.932,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3768.882,"endTime":3770.932,"body":"that's a big problem."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3771.142,"endTime":3774.762,"body":"We don't have, good"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3771.142,"endTime":3774.762,"body":"enough feedback loops."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3774.792,"endTime":3777.222,"body":"That's back to one of your"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3774.792,"endTime":3777.222,"body":"first questions about,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3777.272,"endTime":3778.742,"body":"have we stagnated a bit?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3778.752,"endTime":3779.982,"body":"We've learned a lot."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3780.012,"endTime":3784.392,"body":"I'm not sure we've incorporated"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3780.012,"endTime":3784.392,"body":"what we've learned into"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3784.452,"endTime":3788.472,"body":"the processes we use the,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3784.452,"endTime":3788.472,"body":"our engagement with the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3788.472,"endTime":3792.542,"body":"stakeholders, both the building"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3788.472,"endTime":3792.542,"body":"owners and the developers,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3792.572,"endTime":3795.222,"body":"as well as the, authorities."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3795.612,"endTime":3799.452,"body":"We're still working in"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3795.612,"endTime":3799.452,"body":"silos and not on this kind"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3799.452,"endTime":3802.242,"body":"of continuous learning"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3799.452,"endTime":3802.242,"body":"and an advancement loop."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3802.992,"endTime":3805.562,"body":"So I think, that's part"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3802.992,"endTime":3805.562,"body":"of the system that we, we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3805.562,"endTime":3809.492,"body":"need to go forward with an"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3805.562,"endTime":3809.492,"body":"end to your other comment"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3809.492,"endTime":3812.732,"body":"about, the legislators"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3809.492,"endTime":3812.732,"body":"having difficulty with risk."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3812.732,"endTime":3816.872,"body":"And we talked about that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3812.732,"endTime":3816.872,"body":"before, but they do seem"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3816.872,"endTime":3821.027,"body":"to accept risk when we're"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3816.872,"endTime":3821.027,"body":"talking about probability"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3821.027,"endTime":3824.357,"body":"of failure of a structure"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3821.027,"endTime":3824.357,"body":"to events a certain size."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3824.785,"endTime":3826.565,"body":"They"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3824.785,"endTime":3826.565,"body":"understand it in tunnels."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3826.865,"endTime":3828.425,"body":"They underst it's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3826.865,"endTime":3828.425,"body":"the same authorities."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3828.425,"endTime":3831.545,"body":"They understand it very"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3828.425,"endTime":3831.545,"body":"well that this risk means"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3831.545,"endTime":3833.495,"body":"there is a fire that can"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3831.545,"endTime":3833.495,"body":"kill this many people."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3833.495,"endTime":3836.915,"body":"And we have no way to ensuring"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3833.495,"endTime":3836.915,"body":"it will not happen unless"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3836.915,"endTime":3839.505,"body":"we close this tunnel and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3836.915,"endTime":3839.505,"body":"they understand that there."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3840.027,"endTime":3842.997,"body":"So now we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3840.027,"endTime":3842.997,"body":"have to say, what, how did we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3842.997,"endTime":3846.867,"body":"get to that point in tunnels"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3842.997,"endTime":3846.867,"body":"with fire and how do we have"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3846.867,"endTime":3850.827,"body":"those same dialogues with the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3846.867,"endTime":3850.827,"body":"authorities for buildings?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3851.097,"endTime":3854.877,"body":"And again, as you said,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3851.097,"endTime":3854.877,"body":"communication plays a huge role."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3855.327,"endTime":3860.007,"body":"And it often seems that there's"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3855.327,"endTime":3860.007,"body":"an adversarial arrangement"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3860.007,"endTime":3864.057,"body":"between the fire safety"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3860.007,"endTime":3864.057,"body":"engineer and the enforcement"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3864.057,"endTime":3867.867,"body":"official because enforcers"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3864.057,"endTime":3867.867,"body":"are the authority sink."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3867.867,"endTime":3870.537,"body":"You're trying to reduce"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3867.867,"endTime":3870.537,"body":"something in the building rather"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3870.537,"endTime":3875.817,"body":"than actually assess the safety"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3870.537,"endTime":3875.817,"body":"and provide appropriate safety."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3876.207,"endTime":3877.707,"body":"So it's how we communicate."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3877.707,"endTime":3881.627,"body":"It's how the developer or the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3877.707,"endTime":3881.627,"body":"building owner communicates."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3881.627,"endTime":3884.427,"body":"And it really is a confidence."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3885.192,"endTime":3887.142,"body":"I think we can do"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3885.192,"endTime":3887.142,"body":"what we need to do."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3887.202,"endTime":3891.252,"body":"We haven't been very good"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3887.202,"endTime":3891.252,"body":"at being able to tell people"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3891.732,"endTime":3895.362,"body":"and bring them along and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3891.732,"endTime":3895.362,"body":"show them how good we are"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3895.362,"endTime":3896.652,"body":"at what we're able to do."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3896.866,"endTime":3899.996,"body":"So imagine"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3896.866,"endTime":3899.996,"body":"a situation  in which you chair"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3899.996,"endTime":3903.196,"body":"the most powerful organization"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3899.996,"endTime":3903.196,"body":"in the world of fire scientists,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3903.556,"endTime":3908.116,"body":"which you are, uh, where, where"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3903.556,"endTime":3908.116,"body":"should the fire science go?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3908.196,"endTime":3912.316,"body":"What are the pain"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3908.196,"endTime":3912.316,"body":"points  on the map."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3912.796,"endTime":3915.976,"body":"And the map is in your head"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3912.796,"endTime":3915.976,"body":"is built on your experience"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3915.976,"endTime":3918.736,"body":"of this 30 years, battling"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3915.976,"endTime":3918.736,"body":"with the system and now"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3918.736,"endTime":3920.706,"body":"realizing how it interconnects."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3921.036,"endTime":3923.636,"body":"So where should we"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3921.036,"endTime":3923.636,"body":"like press research?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3923.816,"endTime":3925.566,"body":"Where it is most urgent?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3925.596,"endTime":3927.576,"body":"Is it in quantifying"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3925.596,"endTime":3927.576,"body":"the objectives?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3927.966,"endTime":3932.076,"body":"Is it an objectifying the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3927.966,"endTime":3932.076,"body":"safety is it's developing new."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3932.736,"endTime":3935.376,"body":"I don't know, measures"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3932.736,"endTime":3935.376,"body":"to, to measure safety."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3935.406,"endTime":3936.196,"body":"What's your take?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3936.949,"endTime":3937.189,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3937.189,"endTime":3940.999,"body":"So it's a complex"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3937.189,"endTime":3940.999,"body":"issue obviously."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3941.599,"endTime":3945.149,"body":"And, from the fire safety"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3941.599,"endTime":3945.149,"body":"science perspective,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3945.579,"endTime":3946.209,"body":"we always do."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3947.049,"endTime":3951.829,"body":"Fundamental research to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3947.049,"endTime":3951.829,"body":"better understand, phenomena,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3952.089,"endTime":3955.149,"body":"performance and materials"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3952.089,"endTime":3955.149,"body":"under fire condition,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3955.639,"endTime":3957.649,"body":"understanding human behavior."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3958.069,"endTime":3961.369,"body":"Of course, there are big"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3958.069,"endTime":3961.369,"body":"issues and in the wild land"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3961.369,"endTime":3965.569,"body":"fire arena now, and this"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3961.369,"endTime":3965.569,"body":"intersection of , wild land,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3965.569,"endTime":3969.999,"body":"urban interface, fire, where the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3965.569,"endTime":3969.999,"body":"natural fire event is impacting"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3969.999,"endTime":3971.559,"body":"on the built environment."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3972.249,"endTime":3976.379,"body":"But I think when you get to the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3972.249,"endTime":3976.379,"body":"applied side or the engineering"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3976.379,"endTime":3980.529,"body":"side,  engineers should be"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3976.379,"endTime":3980.529,"body":"about solving problems using"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3980.529,"endTime":3984.759,"body":"the, benefits that science has"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3980.529,"endTime":3984.759,"body":"given us in terms of knowledge,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3984.759,"endTime":3986.469,"body":"information, and data."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3987.069,"endTime":3990.729,"body":"And we should be thinking"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3987.069,"endTime":3990.729,"body":"more about tackling"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3990.789,"endTime":3992.139,"body":"the social problems."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3992.289,"endTime":3996.769,"body":"So it is, what do we need"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3992.289,"endTime":3996.769,"body":"to know to solve or help"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3996.769,"endTime":4001.269,"body":"wildland-urban interface fire"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":3996.769,"endTime":4001.269,"body":"resiliency of communities."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4001.699,"endTime":4004.189,"body":"How do we take the fire"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4001.699,"endTime":4004.189,"body":"safety science knowledge we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4004.189,"endTime":4009.869,"body":"know, and build more robust,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4004.189,"endTime":4009.869,"body":"settlements in developing low"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4009.869,"endTime":4013.889,"body":"and middle income countries"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4009.869,"endTime":4013.889,"body":"where the informal settlements"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4013.889,"endTime":4019.409,"body":"can displace 10,000 people and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4013.889,"endTime":4019.409,"body":"create a whole environment or"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4019.739,"endTime":4021.329,"body":"destroy a whole environment."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4021.899,"endTime":4024.819,"body":"And when we get to buildings"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4021.899,"endTime":4024.819,"body":"and in more developed"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4024.819,"endTime":4030.685,"body":"countries, why are we, trying"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4024.819,"endTime":4030.685,"body":"to apply complex models to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4030.865,"endTime":4033.115,"body":"relatively easy problems."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4033.385,"endTime":4037.195,"body":"Let's work more on getting"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4033.385,"endTime":4037.195,"body":"the system objectives."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4037.645,"endTime":4041.625,"body":"The system design the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4037.645,"endTime":4041.625,"body":"confidence in the stakeholders"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4041.625,"endTime":4043.785,"body":"of we know what we're doing."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4043.935,"endTime":4046.155,"body":"We can apply"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4043.935,"endTime":4046.155,"body":"engineering analysis to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4046.155,"endTime":4047.985,"body":"simplify the problem."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4047.985,"endTime":4051.165,"body":"We can agree objectives and"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4047.985,"endTime":4051.165,"body":"figure out how to go forward."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4052.38,"endTime":4056.73,"body":"Not keep focusing on this"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4052.38,"endTime":4056.73,"body":"narrow part of increasing the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4057.18,"endTime":4062.46,"body":"computational capacity that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4057.18,"endTime":4062.46,"body":"we can do and refocus on how"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4062.46,"endTime":4063.84,"body":"we do better engineering."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4064.38,"endTime":4069.28,"body":"And so, again, it's a spectrum,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4064.38,"endTime":4069.28,"body":"but I think, the science has"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4069.28,"endTime":4072.79,"body":"got a lot to do with dealing"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4069.28,"endTime":4072.79,"body":"with the wild land fire issue."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4073.21,"endTime":4076.54,"body":"I think sociologically, we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4073.21,"endTime":4076.54,"body":"have a lot to do with how we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4076.54,"endTime":4080.12,"body":"handle, low and middle income"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4076.54,"endTime":4080.12,"body":"countries where resources"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4080.12,"endTime":4084.04,"body":"aren't available, but in"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4080.12,"endTime":4084.04,"body":"high-income countries,  let's"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4084.04,"endTime":4089.53,"body":"stop, over-analyzing buildings"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4084.04,"endTime":4089.53,"body":"and let's work on the building"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4089.53,"endTime":4093.31,"body":"regulatory system and the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4089.53,"endTime":4093.31,"body":"infrastructure and the system"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4093.31,"endTime":4096.88,"body":"parameters  and the safety"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4093.31,"endTime":4096.88,"body":"objectives, so that we're"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4096.88,"endTime":4099.04,"body":"able to do better engineering"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4098.931,"endTime":4100.781,"body":"As the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4098.931,"endTime":4100.781,"body":"last thoughts, if we could"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4100.781,"endTime":4102.461,"body":"come up with really good."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4103.256,"endTime":4106.766,"body":"Safety objectives, goals of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4103.256,"endTime":4106.766,"body":"the fire safety approach."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4107.306,"endTime":4111.116,"body":"That would be easy to explain"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4107.306,"endTime":4111.116,"body":"to other stakeholders."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4111.686,"endTime":4114.566,"body":"It was significantly improve"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4111.686,"endTime":4114.566,"body":"their chances of succeeding"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4114.566,"endTime":4117.806,"body":"and not creating another"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4114.566,"endTime":4117.806,"body":"fire issue where the fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4117.806,"endTime":4121.736,"body":"engineer was currently"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4117.806,"endTime":4121.736,"body":"unavailable to do help and aid."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4122.036,"endTime":4124.036,"body":"Because if you look"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4122.036,"endTime":4124.036,"body":"at  structural engineers,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4124.066,"endTime":4126.976,"body":"architects, or other"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4124.066,"endTime":4126.976,"body":"stakeholders you need to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4126.976,"endTime":4131.206,"body":"give them fairly simple"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4126.976,"endTime":4131.206,"body":"tools to quantify if the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4131.206,"endTime":4134.746,"body":"decisions are going on the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4131.206,"endTime":4134.746,"body":"good side or on the bad side,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4134.985,"endTime":4135.345,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4135.425,"endTime":4138.575,"body":"I think when we look at overall"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4135.425,"endTime":4138.575,"body":"objectives for buildings,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4138.655,"endTime":4142.175,"body":"you can modify a lot of them"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4138.655,"endTime":4142.175,"body":"by saying things like we"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4142.175,"endTime":4143.645,"body":"need to increase the energy."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4144.875,"endTime":4148.415,"body":"Performance capacity of the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4144.875,"endTime":4148.415,"body":"building and decrease the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4148.865,"endTime":4153.285,"body":"energy needs without creating"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4148.865,"endTime":4153.285,"body":"unintended consequence"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4153.285,"endTime":4158.675,"body":"associated with fire indoor,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4153.285,"endTime":4158.675,"body":"environment or other health"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4158.675,"endTime":4160.685,"body":"or safety effects, right?"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4160.685,"endTime":4163.895,"body":"So it's somehow building"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4160.685,"endTime":4163.895,"body":"into the objectives."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4163.895,"endTime":4167.195,"body":"The fact that it's not"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4163.895,"endTime":4167.195,"body":"a singular objective."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4167.295,"endTime":4170.155,"body":"You're working on energy"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4167.295,"endTime":4170.155,"body":"performance, but not to the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4170.155,"endTime":4172.855,"body":"exclusion of, of safety."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4172.855,"endTime":4175.585,"body":"You're looking at thermal"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4172.855,"endTime":4175.585,"body":"insulation of buildings,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4175.585,"endTime":4179.725,"body":"but not to the exclusion of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4175.585,"endTime":4179.725,"body":"healthy indoor environment that"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4179.725,"endTime":4183.715,"body":"requires a certain amount of"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4179.725,"endTime":4183.715,"body":"air movement and filtration."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4184.195,"endTime":4186.745,"body":"You're working on the seismic"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4184.195,"endTime":4186.745,"body":"performance of buildings,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4186.745,"endTime":4189.655,"body":"but not to the exclusion"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4186.745,"endTime":4189.655,"body":"of post-earthquake fire"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4189.655,"endTime":4191.065,"body":"performance or others."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4191.785,"endTime":4195.995,"body":"And if we keep thinking"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4191.785,"endTime":4195.995,"body":"objectives early, as each"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4195.995,"endTime":4199.675,"body":"discipline in its silo,"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4195.995,"endTime":4199.675,"body":"you're never going to even"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4199.675,"endTime":4202.165,"body":"give indicators to the"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4199.675,"endTime":4202.165,"body":"other disciplines of what to"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4202.165,"endTime":4205.915,"body":"consider, let alone getting them"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4202.165,"endTime":4205.915,"body":"actually talking to each other."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4206.415,"endTime":4208.485,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4206.415,"endTime":4208.485,"body":"a great summary, Brian."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4208.725,"endTime":4209.715,"body":"Thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4209.715,"endTime":4212.045,"body":"It was a huge pleasure"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4209.715,"endTime":4212.045,"body":"discussing socio-technical"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4212.045,"endTime":4213.605,"body":"systems with you."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4213.605,"endTime":4218.435,"body":"And like I'm taking this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4213.605,"endTime":4218.435,"body":"bird's eye view on the which"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4218.465,"endTime":4221.945,"body":"puzzle we are in this big"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4218.465,"endTime":4221.945,"body":"puzzle of built environment."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4222.922,"endTime":4224.542,"body":"Well, thank"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4222.922,"endTime":4224.542,"body":"you very much for having me."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4224.542,"endTime":4228.122,"body":"It's, it's interesting to see"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4224.542,"endTime":4228.122,"body":"how one's own perspectives"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4228.122,"endTime":4230.852,"body":"change over 30 years or so."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4230.852,"endTime":4234.742,"body":"And you know, I, I think"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4230.852,"endTime":4234.742,"body":"being able to constantly"},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4234.742,"endTime":4236.002,"body":"evolve is a good thing."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4236.002,"endTime":4238.072,"body":"So we all should try to do that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4239.21,"endTime":4241.07,"body":"I see"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4239.21,"endTime":4241.07,"body":"this year, 30 years ahead of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4241.07,"endTime":4243.95,"body":"us in this process, the process"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4241.07,"endTime":4243.95,"body":"of rethinking fire safety."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4244.28,"endTime":4246.33,"body":"So that's a great thing."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4246.33,"endTime":4247.29,"body":"Thanks so much, Brian."},{"speaker":"Brian Meacham","startTime":4247.452,"endTime":4248.152,"body":"Thanks Wojciech."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4249.291,"endTime":4249.621,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4249.621,"endTime":4252.871,"body":"What a episode, I hope"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4249.621,"endTime":4252.871,"body":"you felt this power of the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4252.871,"endTime":4256.261,"body":"thought that the fire safety"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4252.871,"endTime":4256.261,"body":"engineering is not just models,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4256.291,"endTime":4258.374,"body":"tools, law or regulations."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4258.404,"endTime":4263.594,"body":"It's a whole socio-technical"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4258.404,"endTime":4263.594,"body":"system within a larger system"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4263.594,"endTime":4264.824,"body":"of a building environment."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4264.884,"endTime":4268.514,"body":"And if we don't start treating"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4264.884,"endTime":4268.514,"body":"it as a system, it's doubtful"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4268.514,"endTime":4269.984,"body":"that it's going to work well."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4270.314,"endTime":4273.464,"body":"So I think it's not only a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4270.314,"endTime":4273.464,"body":"summary of this episode, but."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4274.164,"endTime":4276.144,"body":"Of the 20 episodes"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4274.164,"endTime":4276.144,"body":"of the podcast."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4276.234,"endTime":4279.444,"body":"And what I've learned in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4276.234,"endTime":4279.444,"body":"the last three months is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4279.444,"endTime":4283.134,"body":"that, , fire safety is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4279.444,"endTime":4283.134,"body":"much wider than I felt."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4283.374,"endTime":4284.424,"body":"I knew it was going to be huge."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4284.424,"endTime":4286.974,"body":"It's going to be interesting"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4284.424,"endTime":4286.974,"body":"varying in topics, jumping"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4286.974,"endTime":4290.394,"body":"from evacuation, human"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4286.974,"endTime":4290.394,"body":"behavior, combustion science,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4290.394,"endTime":4293.124,"body":"to fire safety engineering, to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4290.394,"endTime":4293.124,"body":"modeling and stuff like that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4293.454,"endTime":4295.854,"body":"I knew it's going to be fun,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4293.454,"endTime":4295.854,"body":"but I never thought it's going"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4295.854,"endTime":4297.864,"body":"to be that much varsity in it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4298.379,"endTime":4301.349,"body":"And when you really listen"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4298.379,"endTime":4301.349,"body":"to what people have to say,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4301.379,"endTime":4304.829,"body":"when they come to the podcast,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4301.379,"endTime":4304.829,"body":"you'll notice that they all"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4304.829,"endTime":4305.969,"body":"speak the same language."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4306.089,"endTime":4309.059,"body":"They often see the issues"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4306.089,"endTime":4309.059,"body":"outside of the modeling,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4309.089,"endTime":4310.229,"body":"outside of the tools."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4310.229,"endTime":4314.669,"body":"They see issues with education,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4310.229,"endTime":4314.669,"body":"with the system as whole, with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4314.969,"endTime":4318.119,"body":"the way how we approach modeling"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4314.969,"endTime":4318.119,"body":"with our assumptions with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4318.149,"endTime":4322.289,"body":"blindly following the results"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4318.149,"endTime":4322.289,"body":"without questioning the scope"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4322.319,"endTime":4323.729,"body":"without finding objective."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4324.624,"endTime":4327.464,"body":"And,  this is something"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4324.624,"endTime":4327.464,"body":"really fascinating to me."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4327.464,"endTime":4330.284,"body":"And for the next episodes,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4327.464,"endTime":4330.284,"body":"I'm going to dig into that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4330.314,"endTime":4333.134,"body":"even more because this is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4330.314,"endTime":4333.134,"body":"something I have never learned"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4333.134,"endTime":4334.514,"body":"in my professional education."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4334.994,"endTime":4336.344,"body":"You know, I was taught models."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4336.374,"endTime":4337.754,"body":"I was taught the law."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4337.934,"endTime":4340.544,"body":"I was taught the code speak,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4337.934,"endTime":4340.544,"body":"but I was never taught"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4340.544,"endTime":4343.364,"body":"the socio-technical system"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4340.544,"endTime":4343.364,"body":"I'm living in and I am"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4343.364,"endTime":4346.904,"body":"a part of, so I'm really"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4343.364,"endTime":4346.904,"body":"happy to be discovering"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4346.904,"endTime":4348.404,"body":"this on air with you."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4348.494,"endTime":4350.594,"body":"And I really hope you are"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4348.494,"endTime":4350.594,"body":"enjoying this journey."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4351.519,"endTime":4354.849,"body":"So, yeah, I, I can only promise"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4351.519,"endTime":4354.849,"body":"you, we're going to keep doing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4354.849,"endTime":4358.329,"body":"this and there's going to be"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4354.849,"endTime":4358.329,"body":"a lot more coming your way."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4358.599,"endTime":4361.359,"body":"So if you're interested, share"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4358.599,"endTime":4361.359,"body":"the knowledge with someone,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4361.359,"endTime":4364.499,"body":"you know, and, yeah, come"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4361.359,"endTime":4364.499,"body":"back here the next Wednesday"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4364.499,"endTime":4365.729,"body":"for the next episode."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4366.239,"endTime":4367.109,"body":"Thank you very much."}]}