{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":0.44,"endTime":1.179,"body":"Hello, everybody."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1.19,"endTime":4.22,"body":"Welcome to Fire Science"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1.19,"endTime":4.22,"body":"Show session 23."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4.67,"endTime":6.77,"body":"Another week, another"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":4.67,"endTime":6.77,"body":"great interview."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":7.399,"endTime":11.19,"body":"As you may remember in session"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":7.399,"endTime":11.19,"body":"20, we've hosted professor Brian"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":11.21,"endTime":14.3,"body":"Meacham, and we've talked about"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":11.21,"endTime":14.3,"body":"lots of concepts related to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":14.3,"endTime":17.45,"body":"performance based engineering"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":14.3,"endTime":17.45,"body":"in fire safety engineering."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":18.08,"endTime":23.771,"body":"And in one of the questions,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":18.08,"endTime":23.771,"body":"Brian said that maybe, in FSE"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":23.981,"endTime":28.031,"body":"we should move towards other"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":23.981,"endTime":28.031,"body":"methods of calculating risks."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":28.061,"endTime":33.148,"body":"Like something he called"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":28.061,"endTime":33.148,"body":"maximum tolerable loss and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":33.153,"endTime":36.224,"body":"quite funny, because not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":33.153,"endTime":36.224,"body":"knowing that one or two weeks"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":36.254,"endTime":39.684,"body":"earlier, I've booked my todays"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":36.254,"endTime":39.684,"body":"guests, and they're going to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":39.684,"endTime":44.324,"body":"cover exactly that a method to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":39.684,"endTime":44.324,"body":"calculate this maximum loss."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":44.554,"endTime":48.674,"body":"They've coined it as the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":44.554,"endTime":48.674,"body":"Maximum Allowable Damage, but"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":48.824,"endTime":50.204,"body":"the concept is very similar."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":50.354,"endTime":53.594,"body":"What is the inherent"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":50.354,"endTime":53.594,"body":"risks related to the fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":53.594,"endTime":55.311,"body":"and The fire can cause."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":55.431,"endTime":58.131,"body":"The method is really intriguing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":55.431,"endTime":58.131,"body":"because I've learned that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":58.671,"endTime":63.891,"body":"it's not just about the volume"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":58.671,"endTime":63.891,"body":"or  or a limit or a goal"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":64.251,"endTime":65.811,"body":"in where the damage can be."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":66.231,"endTime":72.561,"body":"It's about A) finding, what"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":66.231,"endTime":72.561,"body":"is the baseline inherent risk"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":72.561,"endTime":76.541,"body":"related to your building,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":72.561,"endTime":76.541,"body":"and then starting from"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":76.541,"endTime":77.761,"body":"that, with your engineering."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":78.351,"endTime":81.256,"body":"And  B) not focusing on"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":78.351,"endTime":81.256,"body":"the value, but then the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":81.256,"endTime":85.389,"body":"process itself and trying"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":81.256,"endTime":85.389,"body":"to learn your building while"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":85.389,"endTime":86.469,"body":"doing the risk analysis."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":86.499,"endTime":89.889,"body":"It's really fascinating to look"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":86.499,"endTime":89.889,"body":"from this perspective and I"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":89.889,"endTime":91.029,"body":"think it could actually work."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":91.014,"endTime":93.626,"body":"So, yeah, this may be"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":91.014,"endTime":93.626,"body":"quite quite useful."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":94.016,"endTime":98.006,"body":"So for this episode, for this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":94.016,"endTime":98.006,"body":"topic, I have two guests."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":98.486,"endTime":102.236,"body":"First is University of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":98.486,"endTime":102.236,"body":"Queensland alumni,Dr Jaime"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":102.236,"endTime":107.396,"body":"Cadena Gomez, who has finished"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":102.236,"endTime":107.396,"body":"his PhD on this very subject,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":107.426,"endTime":110.03,"body":"Maximum Allowable Damage"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":107.426,"endTime":110.03,"body":"risk analysis methodology."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":110.72,"endTime":113.0,"body":"And I also have"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":110.72,"endTime":113.0,"body":"his supervisor, Dr."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":113.0,"endTime":115.61,"body":"David Lange, also from"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":113.0,"endTime":115.61,"body":"University of Queensland,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":116.06,"endTime":120.32,"body":"who was also a great fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":116.06,"endTime":120.32,"body":"scientist, very fit to talk"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":120.32,"endTime":124.91,"body":"about the risk because  in his"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":120.32,"endTime":124.91,"body":"scientific career, he also has"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":125.0,"endTime":128.78,"body":"touch to the risk concepts, in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":125.0,"endTime":128.78,"body":"structural fire engineering."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":129.2,"endTime":131.42,"body":"So a great topic, great guests."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":131.78,"endTime":132.95,"body":"Let's not prolong this."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":133.37,"endTime":134.39,"body":"Without further ado."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":134.63,"endTime":136.85,"body":"Let's spin the intro and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":134.63,"endTime":136.85,"body":"jump into the episode."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":160.01,"endTime":162.38,"body":"Hello, welcome to Fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":160.01,"endTime":162.38,"body":"Science show today."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":162.44,"endTime":164.27,"body":"I'm with two great guests."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":164.593,"endTime":168.31,"body":"first I have a university"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":164.593,"endTime":168.31,"body":"Queensland alumni, and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":168.58,"endTime":171.88,"body":"now network fire engineer"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":168.58,"endTime":171.88,"body":"in Transurban Mr."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":171.88,"endTime":173.38,"body":"Heimer, or sorry, Dr."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":173.38,"endTime":174.73,"body":"Jaime Cadena-Gomez Hello."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":174.73,"endTime":176.05,"body":"Jaime,good to see you here."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":176.88,"endTime":177.09,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":177.14,"endTime":177.92,"body":"Nice to hear you."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":178.54,"endTime":179.62,"body":"Great to have you here."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":179.98,"endTime":185.05,"body":"And I ha and I have, UQ"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":179.98,"endTime":185.05,"body":"professor David Lange."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":185.21,"endTime":187.43,"body":"Hi David,  great to see you."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":187.71,"endTime":188.718,"body":"Hi,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":187.71,"endTime":188.718,"body":"Wojciech good to see you."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":188.738,"endTime":189.338,"body":"Great to be here."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":189.368,"endTime":190.478,"body":"I'll just correct"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":189.368,"endTime":190.478,"body":"you very quickly."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":190.478,"endTime":192.218,"body":"I'm only Doctor, I'm"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":190.478,"endTime":192.218,"body":"a senior lecturer"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":192.218,"endTime":192.368,"body":"here."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":192.368,"endTime":193.679,"body":"Not a full professor, sadly."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":193.735,"endTime":195.04,"body":"Before"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":193.735,"endTime":195.04,"body":"the podcast goes live."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":195.07,"endTime":197.273,"body":"It's  now we joking."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":197.323,"endTime":198.123,"body":"Ill work on it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":198.686,"endTime":199.406,"body":"Let's work on this."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":200.036,"endTime":200.336,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":200.396,"endTime":203.486,"body":"Great to have you, David, how"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":200.396,"endTime":203.486,"body":"is it living downstairs in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":204.146,"endTime":205.196,"body":"the other part of the world?"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":205.203,"endTime":205.673,"body":"it's okay."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":205.673,"endTime":206.903,"body":"It's a little bit hot sometimes."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":206.973,"endTime":209.09,"body":"I'm Scottish and, I'm"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":206.973,"endTime":209.09,"body":"used to much colder"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":209.09,"endTime":210.36,"body":"climate than I get here."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":210.56,"endTime":212.57,"body":"We're used to the weather"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":210.56,"endTime":212.57,"body":"after three and a half years."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":212.64,"endTime":213.93,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":212.64,"endTime":213.93,"body":"guess these are the things"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":213.93,"endTime":215.183,"body":"that can gets used to"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":215.713,"endTime":216.103,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":216.193,"endTime":219.236,"body":"So today"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":216.193,"endTime":219.236,"body":"we got together here to discuss"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":219.236,"endTime":224.146,"body":"some risk concepts and risk as a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":219.236,"endTime":224.146,"body":"tool for fire safety engineers."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":224.716,"endTime":227.956,"body":"A tool that is already"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":224.716,"endTime":227.956,"body":"being used in some cases,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":228.076,"endTime":231.696,"body":"sometimes used wrongly,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":228.076,"endTime":231.696,"body":"sometimes used well."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":232.036,"endTime":235.396,"body":"But, as many things in fire,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":232.036,"endTime":235.396,"body":"it comes in flavors and there"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":235.396,"endTime":237.956,"body":"are so many ways to approach"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":235.396,"endTime":237.956,"body":"that, I've touched it with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":237.956,"endTime":240.806,"body":"Brian Meacham when we discussed"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":237.956,"endTime":240.806,"body":"Performance Based Engineering"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":240.806,"endTime":244.216,"body":"and this risk concepts are so"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":240.806,"endTime":244.216,"body":"inherently connected to the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":244.216,"endTime":245.416,"body":"performance based engineering."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":245.466,"endTime":247.956,"body":"At some point it seems"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":245.466,"endTime":247.956,"body":"to be the same thing."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":248.376,"endTime":251.406,"body":"So,  Jaime first question"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":248.376,"endTime":251.406,"body":"to you because you pursued"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":251.406,"endTime":252.696,"body":"your PhD in this topic."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":253.086,"endTime":254.886,"body":"I wondered how did it start it?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":254.916,"endTime":258.76,"body":"How did the things aligned"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":254.916,"endTime":258.76,"body":"for you seek a PhD in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":258.76,"endTime":262.75,"body":"risk assessment and where"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":258.76,"endTime":262.75,"body":"did you identify the gap?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":263.185,"endTime":267.265,"body":"In the current methodology that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":263.185,"endTime":267.265,"body":"made you pursue this subject."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":267.86,"endTime":269.69,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":267.86,"endTime":269.69,"body":"thanks for the question."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":269.79,"endTime":273.48,"body":"It's very interesting because,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":269.79,"endTime":273.48,"body":"I guess I started exploring the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":273.48,"endTime":278.0,"body":"concept of risk, way before I"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":273.48,"endTime":278.0,"body":"even realized I was doing that."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":278.1,"endTime":281.33,"body":"Back when I was back when I"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":278.1,"endTime":281.33,"body":"was in university finishing"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":281.33,"endTime":284.35,"body":"my bachelor degree in chemical"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":281.33,"endTime":284.35,"body":"engineering,  I started"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":284.35,"endTime":287.88,"body":"getting involved in fire"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":284.35,"endTime":287.88,"body":"simulations and the focus"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":287.88,"endTime":289.38,"body":"of that was process safety."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":289.41,"endTime":293.34,"body":"So it all started with"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":289.41,"endTime":293.34,"body":"a small laboratory of"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":293.34,"endTime":294.39,"body":"chemical engineering."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":294.42,"endTime":298.34,"body":"There have been a few"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":294.42,"endTime":298.34,"body":"small flash fires in there."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":298.73,"endTime":302.54,"body":"And, my supervisor at the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":298.73,"endTime":302.54,"body":"time, my, who is my mentor"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":302.54,"endTime":305.48,"body":"and it's someone I'm,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":302.54,"endTime":305.48,"body":"I've learned so much from"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":305.52,"endTime":308.17,"body":"he suggested, do you want"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":305.52,"endTime":308.17,"body":"to research these as your,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":308.23,"endTime":309.7,"body":"as your graduation project?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":309.73,"endTime":313.27,"body":"And I thought it was very"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":309.73,"endTime":313.27,"body":"interesting and I did it"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":313.27,"endTime":316.33,"body":"from a purely chemical"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":313.27,"endTime":316.33,"body":"process safety perspective."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":316.33,"endTime":319.99,"body":"So we had a few scenarios that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":316.33,"endTime":319.99,"body":"were very well-characterized"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":319.99,"endTime":323.31,"body":"because it process . We analyze"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":319.99,"endTime":323.31,"body":"the consequences, not the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":323.31,"endTime":325.99,"body":"likelihoods, because we knew"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":323.31,"endTime":325.99,"body":"it could happen to anytime it"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":326.01,"endTime":329.58,"body":"had already almost happened a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":326.01,"endTime":329.58,"body":"few times, so we didn't care"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":329.58,"endTime":332.52,"body":"about the likelihood and I will"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":329.58,"endTime":332.52,"body":"return to that at some point."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":332.86,"endTime":336.04,"body":"But we really cared about how"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":332.86,"endTime":336.04,"body":"bad things could get, because"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":336.04,"endTime":338.8,"body":"there were several million"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":336.04,"endTime":338.8,"body":"dollars equipment in that room."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":339.22,"endTime":339.76,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":339.84,"endTime":341.94,"body":"that was the first"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":339.84,"endTime":341.94,"body":"contact I had."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":341.94,"endTime":347.34,"body":"But then, once I went into,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":341.94,"endTime":347.34,"body":"my professional career and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":347.34,"endTime":351.57,"body":"I started working, I kept"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":347.34,"endTime":351.57,"body":"doing research and for, I"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":351.57,"endTime":354.78,"body":"don't know some reasons,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":351.57,"endTime":354.78,"body":"I'm not exactly sure."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":355.42,"endTime":358.51,"body":"I was still attracted to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":355.42,"endTime":358.51,"body":"fire because I understood"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":358.51,"endTime":361.87,"body":"that fire was different"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":358.51,"endTime":361.87,"body":"in that first exercise."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":361.93,"endTime":363.94,"body":"I saw that fire"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":361.93,"endTime":363.94,"body":"safety engineering"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":363.94,"endTime":365.14,"body":"was actually a thing."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":365.17,"endTime":367.03,"body":"That's something that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":365.17,"endTime":367.03,"body":"most chemical engineers."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":367.48,"endTime":368.44,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":368.44,"endTime":370.75,"body":"And most process safety"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":368.44,"endTime":370.75,"body":"engineers don't know."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":371.2,"endTime":376.03,"body":"So I started connecting dots and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":371.2,"endTime":376.03,"body":"throughout my master's research,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":376.54,"endTime":378.19,"body":"I started getting involved with"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":378.29,"endTime":381.11,"body":"professor Jose Torrero"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":378.29,"endTime":381.11,"body":"when he was back in the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":381.11,"endTime":382.31,"body":"university of Edinburgh."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":383.27,"endTime":388.52,"body":"And we started collaborating, I"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":383.27,"endTime":388.52,"body":"started using FDS simulations,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":388.55,"endTime":392.33,"body":"but from the uncertainty"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":388.55,"endTime":392.33,"body":"analysis point of view, and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":392.33,"endTime":395.66,"body":"I was still flirting with"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":392.33,"endTime":395.66,"body":"the idea of risk, but I"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":395.66,"endTime":397.16,"body":"wasn't consciously doing it."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":397.19,"endTime":398.81,"body":"It was kind of in"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":397.19,"endTime":398.81,"body":"the background."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":399.47,"endTime":402.8,"body":"When I finished my masters"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":399.47,"endTime":402.8,"body":"and I started working in"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":402.8,"endTime":406.25,"body":"consultancy and,  things"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":402.8,"endTime":406.25,"body":"became less academic."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":406.68,"endTime":410.7,"body":"I started realizing that a lot"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":406.68,"endTime":410.7,"body":"of the things that I saw in from"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":410.7,"endTime":415.11,"body":"fire, from where I was standing"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":410.7,"endTime":415.11,"body":"and the things that I saw in"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":415.11,"endTime":418.26,"body":"chemical process safety, they"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":415.11,"endTime":418.26,"body":"all had something in common."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":418.26,"endTime":420.24,"body":"And I couldn't really"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":418.26,"endTime":420.24,"body":"put my finger on it."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":421.225,"endTime":421.975,"body":"At the end of it."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":421.975,"endTime":425.775,"body":"And as you introduce  very"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":421.975,"endTime":425.775,"body":"well, it's risk and it's a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":425.805,"endTime":429.045,"body":"common element just because"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":425.805,"endTime":429.045,"body":"risk is all around us."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":429.045,"endTime":431.995,"body":"And it's a concept that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":429.045,"endTime":431.995,"body":"should be very, organic"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":431.995,"endTime":433.615,"body":"to all the human beings."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":433.615,"endTime":433.975,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":434.005,"endTime":439.555,"body":"We all kind of understand if"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":434.005,"endTime":439.555,"body":"you say that's risky, everyone"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":439.555,"endTime":442.285,"body":"kind of understands what"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":439.555,"endTime":442.285,"body":"you're saying, even though the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":442.285,"endTime":444.145,"body":"definition is completely vague."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":444.175,"endTime":447.505,"body":"Nobody can agree on the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":444.175,"endTime":447.505,"body":"definition, but we all know"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":447.505,"endTime":448.585,"body":"what we're talking about."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":448.585,"endTime":451.165,"body":"And we all do some sort"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":448.585,"endTime":451.165,"body":"of risk analysis in"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":451.165,"endTime":452.815,"body":"our heads all the time."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":453.145,"endTime":454.855,"body":"So I was very curious about it."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":454.885,"endTime":456.225,"body":"And just to finish."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":457.47,"endTime":461.1,"body":"At some point, I realized,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":457.47,"endTime":461.1,"body":"look, I really want to do"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":461.1,"endTime":464.04,"body":"more research and fire safety."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":464.35,"endTime":465.61,"body":"with process safety."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":465.9,"endTime":469.84,"body":"There's something there about"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":465.9,"endTime":469.84,"body":"risk assessments,  this whole"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":469.84,"endTime":472.3,"body":"approach of quantifying risk."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":472.33,"endTime":474.79,"body":"There's something that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":472.33,"endTime":474.79,"body":"doesn't sit right with me."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":475.09,"endTime":479.47,"body":"And I approach Jose initially,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":475.09,"endTime":479.47,"body":"with that, and we discuss"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":479.48,"endTime":481.81,"body":"that and he said, actually,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":479.48,"endTime":481.81,"body":"that's something that I'm"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":481.87,"endTime":483.49,"body":"concerned about as well."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":483.52,"endTime":484.84,"body":"Let's do our research."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":485.2,"endTime":487.33,"body":"And eventually I ended"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":485.2,"endTime":487.33,"body":"up working with David who"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":487.33,"endTime":488.96,"body":"became my main supervisor."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":489.77,"endTime":493.6,"body":"And that's how I ended up doing"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":489.77,"endTime":493.6,"body":"my PhD in fire risk assessments."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":495.275,"endTime":497.495,"body":"So you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":495.275,"endTime":497.495,"body":"became fire safety engineer by"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":497.495,"endTime":498.815,"body":"almost burning down your lab."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":499.265,"endTime":500.905,"body":"That's an interesting way to."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":502.11,"endTime":504.05,"body":"Well, I wasn't"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":502.11,"endTime":504.05,"body":"the one who almost burned it"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":504.05,"endTime":507.53,"body":"down, was the one who tried to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":504.05,"endTime":507.53,"body":"figure out how bad it would be."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":507.53,"endTime":510.29,"body":"If it did burn down, it"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":507.53,"endTime":510.29,"body":"was real bad, actually."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":511.61,"endTime":512.85,"body":"That's a great pathway."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":512.85,"endTime":514.01,"body":"And actually, in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":514.01,"endTime":517.9,"body":"a classic theory of science,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":514.01,"endTime":517.9,"body":"Kuhn style,  it's very"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":517.9,"endTime":520.15,"body":"difficult for someone from"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":517.9,"endTime":520.15,"body":"inside of a discipline to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":520.15,"endTime":521.57,"body":"change the discipline at whole."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":521.92,"endTime":522.37,"body":"So,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":522.38,"endTime":524.9,"body":"for fire safety engineers,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":522.38,"endTime":524.9,"body":"it's touching is risk."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":525.2,"endTime":528.47,"body":"It's like inherently connected"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":525.2,"endTime":528.47,"body":"to them and they learned"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":528.47,"endTime":529.46,"body":"that the classical way"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":529.7,"endTime":531.47,"body":"you have to come from"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":529.7,"endTime":531.47,"body":"outside from a different"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":531.47,"endTime":534.8,"body":"discipline and you came from"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":531.47,"endTime":534.8,"body":"chemical engineering with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":534.8,"endTime":538.34,"body":"the process safety in your"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":534.8,"endTime":538.34,"body":"mind and apply that to fire."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":538.39,"endTime":538.6,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":538.6,"endTime":540.82,"body":"that's the proper combination,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":538.6,"endTime":540.82,"body":"how to change the approach."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":541.24,"endTime":543.29,"body":"And David what's in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":541.24,"endTime":543.29,"body":"the risk, for you."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":543.29,"endTime":545.85,"body":"What were your thoughts when"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":543.29,"endTime":545.85,"body":"Jaime approached you with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":545.85,"endTime":546.84,"body":"this subject, with Jose."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":547.34,"endTime":548.51,"body":"Well, that's"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":547.34,"endTime":548.51,"body":"kind of, it's interesting."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":548.51,"endTime":550.676,"body":"And I think, Jaime did touch"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":548.51,"endTime":550.676,"body":"on that, that he initially did"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":550.676,"endTime":553.796,"body":"approach Then he didn't really"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":550.676,"endTime":553.796,"body":"give a little bit more give a"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":553.796,"endTime":557.816,"body":"lot of detail about the process"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":553.796,"endTime":557.816,"body":"whereby I became his principal"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":557.816,"endTime":561.443,"body":"advisor, but actually Jaime had"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":557.816,"endTime":561.443,"body":"a several principal advisors"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":561.443,"endTime":562.583,"body":"over the course of his PhD."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":562.643,"endTime":563.693,"body":"So from starting off"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":563.743,"endTime":566.423,"body":"applying for the program here"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":563.743,"endTime":566.423,"body":"at UQ with Jose, while Jose was"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":566.423,"endTime":569.793,"body":"still, the head of School of"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":566.423,"endTime":569.793,"body":"Civil Engineering here, when"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":569.853,"endTime":572.673,"body":"Jaime arrived, it was shortly"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":569.853,"endTime":572.673,"body":"after Jose had left and Jaime"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":572.673,"endTime":575.343,"body":"started off working with one"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":572.673,"endTime":575.343,"body":"of our colleagues who left."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":575.873,"endTime":577.908,"body":"just about a year after,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":575.873,"endTime":577.908,"body":"I think Jaime started."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":577.918,"endTime":579.695,"body":"Dr Andres Osorio"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":577.918,"endTime":579.695,"body":"who's a graduate of"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":579.695,"endTime":580.655,"body":"UC Berkeley's program."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":581.135,"endTime":584.845,"body":"And, I started, but long"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":581.135,"endTime":584.845,"body":"before Andres left and , took"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":584.845,"endTime":588.055,"body":"over principal supervision"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":584.845,"endTime":588.055,"body":"of Jaime because it was most"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":588.055,"endTime":590.785,"body":"aligned with my own interests"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":588.055,"endTime":590.785,"body":"and my interests in risk."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":591.025,"endTime":593.865,"body":"They stem from my PhD, which"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":591.025,"endTime":593.865,"body":"was the risk and performance"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":593.865,"endTime":597.315,"body":"based design of steel and"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":593.865,"endTime":597.315,"body":"composite structures for fire."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":597.405,"endTime":600.045,"body":"Working with professor Usmani"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":597.405,"endTime":600.045,"body":"at the university of Edinburgh"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":600.075,"endTime":601.135,"body":"and also with Jose Torrero."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":601.461,"endTime":603.141,"body":"Once I left Edinburgh, I spent"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":603.221,"endTime":606.941,"body":"six and a half years at SP as"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":603.221,"endTime":606.941,"body":"it was at that time, it is RISE"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":607.571,"endTime":611.011,"body":"as it is now in Sweden, working"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":607.571,"endTime":611.011,"body":"on European projects related to"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":611.401,"endTime":614.611,"body":"large scale crisis management"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":611.401,"endTime":614.611,"body":"or, Coile infrastructure"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":614.631,"endTime":615.771,"body":"resilience as well."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":616.101,"endTime":617.541,"body":"I've also done"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":616.101,"endTime":617.541,"body":"quite a lot of work"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":617.571,"endTime":619.041,"body":"in collaboration"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":617.571,"endTime":619.041,"body":"with Ruben van Coil."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":619.621,"endTime":623.311,"body":"And with Danny Hopkin"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":619.621,"endTime":623.311,"body":"of OFR on risk."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":623.321,"endTime":625.651,"body":"So really learns a huge"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":623.321,"endTime":625.651,"body":"amount from both of them."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":626.553,"endTime":628.953,"body":"such a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":626.553,"endTime":628.953,"body":"nice combination of chemical"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":629.576,"endTime":632.276,"body":"engineering perspective,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":629.576,"endTime":632.276,"body":"structural engineer perspective,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":632.306,"endTime":635.586,"body":", let's say infrastructure"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":632.306,"endTime":635.586,"body":"safety perspective."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":635.616,"endTime":637.476,"body":"Each of these disciplines"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":635.616,"endTime":637.476,"body":"would have a completely"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":637.476,"endTime":640.626,"body":"different understanding of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":637.476,"endTime":640.626,"body":"what is the acceptable risk."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":640.658,"endTime":643.178,"body":"Like, if you want to use risk"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":640.658,"endTime":643.178,"body":"as a concept in designing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":643.178,"endTime":646.618,"body":"safety, you need to have a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":643.178,"endTime":646.618,"body":"target,  it's not possible"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":646.618,"endTime":648.488,"body":"to design for zero risk."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":648.598,"endTime":651.838,"body":"There's always a meteor that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":648.598,"endTime":651.838,"body":"can hit the planet and your"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":651.838,"endTime":653.358,"body":"whole risk concept is down."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":653.628,"endTime":658.508,"body":"So, in many aspects, this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":653.628,"endTime":658.508,"body":"pursuit of finding, risk,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":658.588,"endTime":662.318,"body":"or using risk as a concept"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":658.588,"endTime":662.318,"body":"in design would go down to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":662.528,"endTime":665.708,"body":"finding what that tolerable,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":662.528,"endTime":665.708,"body":"level is, or where is the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":665.708,"endTime":667.148,"body":"boundary for which you design."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":667.148,"endTime":667.448,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":667.478,"endTime":670.408,"body":"And, I know some,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":667.478,"endTime":670.408,"body":"some ways to do that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":670.408,"endTime":674.778,"body":"Sometimes it's a fixed value of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":670.408,"endTime":674.778,"body":"risk sometimes it's,  FN curve."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":674.808,"endTime":675.658,"body":"It's probability"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":674.808,"endTime":675.658,"body":"against fatalities."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":675.708,"endTime":677.388,"body":"Sometimes it's in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":675.708,"endTime":677.388,"body":"terms of money."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":677.668,"endTime":682.948,"body":"Sometimes it's in terms of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":677.668,"endTime":682.948,"body":"some gains or some unbiased"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":683.098,"endTime":685.948,"body":"method of calculating"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":683.098,"endTime":685.948,"body":"what the gain would be."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":686.188,"endTime":690.178,"body":"If you do a decision and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":686.188,"endTime":690.178,"body":"in your PhD, Jaime you've"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":690.238,"endTime":693.268,"body":"introduced the concept of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":690.238,"endTime":693.268,"body":"Maximum Allowable Damage, or"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":693.268,"endTime":694.438,"body":"you've applied that concept."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":694.948,"endTime":697.608,"body":"And that's interesting,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":694.948,"endTime":697.608,"body":"again, I'm going back to the,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":697.658,"endTime":700.718,"body":"interview with Brian because"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":697.658,"endTime":700.718,"body":"that's, that, that was like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":700.758,"endTime":701.838,"body":"really powerful for me."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":702.148,"endTime":706.288,"body":"That lesson I got from him and,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":702.148,"endTime":706.288,"body":"Brian told that if we want to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":706.288,"endTime":710.518,"body":"incorporate like risk or PBD"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":706.288,"endTime":710.518,"body":"performance based engineering"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":711.068,"endTime":715.088,"body":"design in general, we need"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":711.068,"endTime":715.088,"body":"to apply some better concepts"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":715.088,"endTime":716.318,"body":"in finding the targets."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":716.318,"endTime":719.758,"body":"And he mentioned like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":716.318,"endTime":719.758,"body":"maximum, tollerable, damage"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":719.818,"endTime":720.658,"body":"or something like that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":721.028,"endTime":723.108,"body":"I guess it's like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":721.028,"endTime":723.108,"body":"a very similar."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":723.768,"endTime":725.538,"body":"I was actually"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":723.768,"endTime":725.538,"body":"very surprised too, because"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":725.538,"endTime":728.208,"body":"I listened to the podcast"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":725.538,"endTime":728.208,"body":"uh, I was actually quite"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":728.208,"endTime":730.478,"body":"surprised to hear him say that."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":730.528,"endTime":731.458,"body":"and I completely agree."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":731.458,"endTime":733.658,"body":"Yeah, that's the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":731.458,"endTime":733.658,"body":"Basis of my PhD."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":733.658,"endTime":736.228,"body":"And, just to summarize it."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":736.828,"endTime":740.758,"body":"There's so much uncertainty"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":736.828,"endTime":740.758,"body":"involved in designing a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":740.758,"endTime":744.888,"body":"building for fire safety"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":740.758,"endTime":744.888,"body":"and you don't know who is"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":744.888,"endTime":746.088,"body":"going to be there doing"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":746.138,"endTime":748.988,"body":"what kind of field load, what"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":746.138,"endTime":748.988,"body":"the distribution is, and you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":748.988,"endTime":750.218,"body":"can make a lot of guesses."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":750.248,"endTime":752.978,"body":"They can be even educated"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":750.248,"endTime":752.978,"body":"guesses and you have a lot"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":752.978,"endTime":755.948,"body":"of even databases that you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":752.978,"endTime":755.948,"body":"can use, but you don't know."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":757.133,"endTime":757.703,"body":"You don't know."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":757.773,"endTime":761.003,"body":"And I would like to have a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":757.773,"endTime":761.003,"body":"conversation with, an engineer"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":761.003,"endTime":764.203,"body":"who thinks they, they know"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":761.003,"endTime":764.203,"body":"because, we don't know."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":764.833,"endTime":768.133,"body":"And, even in my current"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":764.833,"endTime":768.133,"body":"role, at Transurban dealing"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":768.133,"endTime":771.193,"body":"with tunnels, all of these"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":768.133,"endTime":771.193,"body":"very complex infrastructure"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":771.193,"endTime":774.543,"body":"is designed within a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":771.193,"endTime":774.543,"body":"very specific boundaries."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":775.083,"endTime":776.823,"body":"And for fire safety is the same."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":776.823,"endTime":780.423,"body":"As you said, there are some"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":776.823,"endTime":780.423,"body":"targets that we define, but"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":780.453,"endTime":784.003,"body":"most often than not, those"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":780.453,"endTime":784.003,"body":"targets are not really targets,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":784.033,"endTime":787.413,"body":"but boundaries of where the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":784.033,"endTime":787.413,"body":"system should be operating."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":787.463,"endTime":789.653,"body":"And we designed for"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":787.463,"endTime":789.653,"body":"those boundaries."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":789.893,"endTime":790.883,"body":"So if you have a warehouse."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":791.768,"endTime":795.308,"body":"You will pretty much know"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":791.768,"endTime":795.308,"body":"how much fuel load and how"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":795.308,"endTime":796.538,"body":"it will be distributed."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":796.538,"endTime":798.128,"body":"And that's the limit."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":798.248,"endTime":801.308,"body":"Most likely you won't be able"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":798.248,"endTime":801.308,"body":"to have more than that, of a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":801.308,"endTime":805.028,"body":"particular type of fuel load"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":801.308,"endTime":805.028,"body":"because your structure and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":805.028,"endTime":807.998,"body":"your protection systems will"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":805.028,"endTime":807.998,"body":"be designed for those, for that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":807.998,"endTime":809.738,"body":"particular distribution of load."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":810.248,"endTime":815.208,"body":"So it's kind of that idea of"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":810.248,"endTime":815.208,"body":"the boundaries of the design"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":815.208,"endTime":819.608,"body":"boundaries that led me to that,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":815.208,"endTime":819.608,"body":"concept of maximum allowable"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":819.608,"endTime":822.298,"body":"damage, which as you said,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":819.608,"endTime":822.298,"body":"I didn't come up with that."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":822.328,"endTime":824.498,"body":"It's just something"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":822.328,"endTime":824.498,"body":"that,  we articulated"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":824.498,"endTime":827.348,"body":"because that has been used"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":824.498,"endTime":827.348,"body":"extensively, particularly"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":827.348,"endTime":831.878,"body":"in the insurance sector and the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":827.348,"endTime":831.878,"body":"way they use it is different,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":831.908,"endTime":833.168,"body":"but it's the same concept."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":833.168,"endTime":833.618,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":833.658,"endTime":835.998,"body":"when they are going to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":833.658,"endTime":835.998,"body":"insure a building or a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":835.998,"endTime":838.548,"body":"piece of infrastructure,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":835.998,"endTime":838.548,"body":"they want to know."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":839.553,"endTime":842.523,"body":"If you do have a massive"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":839.553,"endTime":842.523,"body":"fire and a bunch of things"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":842.523,"endTime":845.193,"body":"fail and buy a bunch of"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":842.523,"endTime":845.193,"body":"things, everything fails"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":845.533,"endTime":846.283,"body":"what is the loss?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":846.313,"endTime":847.543,"body":"Because we're going"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":846.313,"endTime":847.543,"body":"to have to pay for it."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":847.543,"endTime":850.813,"body":"So will we actually"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":847.543,"endTime":850.813,"body":"be able to pay for it?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":851.263,"endTime":855.283,"body":"And they do it from a more"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":851.263,"endTime":855.283,"body":"economic point of view, right?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":855.313,"endTime":857.243,"body":"Because yeah,  they're"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":855.313,"endTime":857.243,"body":"gonna pay for it."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":857.303,"endTime":861.593,"body":"It's  infrastructure is property"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":857.303,"endTime":861.593,"body":"protection, but the concept"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":861.593,"endTime":863.203,"body":"is underlying is the same."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":863.203,"endTime":867.033,"body":"So what I wanted to explore"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":863.203,"endTime":867.033,"body":"with my research, was, well,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":867.063,"endTime":869.883,"body":"what have you used that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":867.063,"endTime":869.883,"body":"concept not for money, not"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":869.883,"endTime":872.073,"body":"for an insurance payout."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":872.553,"endTime":876.213,"body":"What if you use it to actually"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":872.553,"endTime":876.213,"body":"identify the boundaries of"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":876.213,"endTime":881.223,"body":"your design and be very clear"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":876.213,"endTime":881.223,"body":"about what your building or"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":881.223,"endTime":885.623,"body":"your infrastructure can achieve"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":881.223,"endTime":885.623,"body":"in terms of whatever it is"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":885.623,"endTime":889.763,"body":"that you're doing protecting"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":885.623,"endTime":889.763,"body":"life or protecting property."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":890.903,"endTime":893.723,"body":"Protecting the environment,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":890.903,"endTime":893.723,"body":"protecting the firefighters,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":893.753,"endTime":896.513,"body":"protecting the community"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":893.753,"endTime":896.513,"body":"surrounding that infrastructure,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":896.903,"endTime":901.043,"body":"whatever it is you want to do,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":896.903,"endTime":901.043,"body":"you can very well-define this"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":901.043,"endTime":905.723,"body":"is how much I am willing to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":901.043,"endTime":905.723,"body":"lose in any of those objectives."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":906.143,"endTime":908.933,"body":"And you can then design"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":906.143,"endTime":908.933,"body":"backwards from that."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":909.683,"endTime":910.703,"body":"And I guess that was"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":910.743,"endTime":913.593,"body":"where I found my first"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":910.743,"endTime":913.593,"body":"clash with all the other"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":913.593,"endTime":916.803,"body":"methodologies, which has you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":913.593,"endTime":916.803,"body":"said before we started there's"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":916.803,"endTime":921.163,"body":"so many of them and my intention"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":916.803,"endTime":921.163,"body":"wasn't to come up with the one"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":921.163,"endTime":923.723,"body":"that actually worked, because,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":921.163,"endTime":923.723,"body":"that doesn't really make sense."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":923.723,"endTime":924.973,"body":"I don't think  that's the case."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":925.053,"endTime":927.903,"body":"You need to select them"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":925.053,"endTime":927.903,"body":"and customize them, on"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":927.903,"endTime":930.453,"body":"a case by case basis."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":930.803,"endTime":935.153,"body":"but what I did want was"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":930.803,"endTime":935.153,"body":"to provide an alternative"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":935.153,"endTime":938.293,"body":"that fits better with these"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":935.153,"endTime":938.293,"body":"framework of performance-based"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":938.293,"endTime":941.443,"body":"design because it cannot"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":938.293,"endTime":941.443,"body":"be just reaching a target."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":941.623,"endTime":943.603,"body":"A target can be very deceiving."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":943.633,"endTime":946.513,"body":"You don't even know if that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":943.633,"endTime":946.513,"body":"target is really what you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":946.513,"endTime":951.103,"body":"should be striving for while"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":946.513,"endTime":951.103,"body":"if you define the boundaries"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":951.103,"endTime":955.723,"body":"of the performance of your"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":951.103,"endTime":955.723,"body":"system, then that you do know."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":955.903,"endTime":958.813,"body":"You will be able to make"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":955.903,"endTime":958.813,"body":"a safety case on that."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":958.813,"endTime":962.503,"body":"You will be able to say, look,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":958.813,"endTime":962.503,"body":"based on these conditions, the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":962.503,"endTime":964.243,"body":"performance will be acceptable."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":964.273,"endTime":966.333,"body":"The performance"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":964.273,"endTime":966.333,"body":"will be as intended."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":966.433,"endTime":969.493,"body":"If you go out of those"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":966.433,"endTime":969.493,"body":"boundaries, I cannot tell"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":969.493,"endTime":970.483,"body":"you what's going to happen."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":970.583,"endTime":971.743,"body":"I'm very sorry."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":971.773,"endTime":976.153,"body":"And most likely the system"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":971.773,"endTime":976.153,"body":"will operate at some point"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":976.183,"endTime":977.983,"body":"outside of those boundaries."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":978.103,"endTime":980.103,"body":"But, that's a whole"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":978.103,"endTime":980.103,"body":"different problem."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":980.133,"endTime":981.843,"body":"You will need to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":980.133,"endTime":981.843,"body":"control it somehow."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":982.173,"endTime":984.963,"body":"But as long as you remain"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":982.173,"endTime":984.963,"body":"within those boundaries,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":985.463,"endTime":987.143,"body":"happy days, things will work."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":987.473,"endTime":988.223,"body":"And I guess"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":988.223,"endTime":991.643,"body":"that was for me, the main"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":988.223,"endTime":991.643,"body":"takeaway of the research I did."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":992.888,"endTime":996.398,"body":"Necessarily hitting a target"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":992.888,"endTime":996.398,"body":"because of that, that might"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":996.398,"endTime":998.438,"body":"not really ensure anything."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":998.468,"endTime":999.728,"body":"It's more about saying"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":999.888,"endTime":1001.088,"body":"we're going to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":999.888,"endTime":1001.088,"body":"have vulnerability."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1001.088,"endTime":1002.378,"body":"We're going to have"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1001.088,"endTime":1002.378,"body":"some boundaries."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1002.408,"endTime":1004.658,"body":"How do we say within"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1002.408,"endTime":1004.658,"body":"those boundaries and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1004.658,"endTime":1006.278,"body":"where those boundaries lay"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1007.018,"endTime":1009.668,"body":"So if I"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1007.018,"endTime":1009.668,"body":"understood correctly, this is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1009.668,"endTime":1015.688,"body":"more oriented on figuring the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1009.668,"endTime":1015.688,"body":"outcomes of the fire events and,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1015.768,"endTime":1017.838,"body":"quantify how bad that can be."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1018.318,"endTime":1021.808,"body":"And then, based on your"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1018.318,"endTime":1021.808,"body":"decision, how bad you would"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1021.808,"endTime":1025.978,"body":"like to do allow the fire to be"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1021.808,"endTime":1025.978,"body":",then design around that, not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1026.028,"endTime":1030.838,"body":"just calculate the risk value of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1026.028,"endTime":1030.838,"body":"in whatever form it is to say,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1030.838,"endTime":1033.448,"body":"okay, it's below my risk limits."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1033.448,"endTime":1033.838,"body":"So,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1033.838,"endTime":1034.528,"body":"it's good."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1034.828,"endTime":1036.658,"body":"If it's much below,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1034.828,"endTime":1036.658,"body":"I can cut some stuff."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1036.688,"endTime":1038.668,"body":"If it's little above,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1036.688,"endTime":1038.668,"body":"I can add some stuff."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1039.118,"endTime":1042.388,"body":"So it's more focused on"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1039.118,"endTime":1042.388,"body":"this like critical path to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1042.388,"endTime":1043.318,"body":"the worst case scenario."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1044.253,"endTime":1044.553,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1044.673,"endTime":1045.273,"body":"Yeah, correct."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1045.273,"endTime":1049.253,"body":"So if you think of a compartment"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1045.273,"endTime":1049.253,"body":"inside a building and you have"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1049.253,"endTime":1052.853,"body":"a fire and that fire is going"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1049.253,"endTime":1052.853,"body":"to start producing both heat"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1052.953,"endTime":1057.663,"body":"and smoke, then you need to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1052.953,"endTime":1057.663,"body":"figure out, well, what are the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1057.663,"endTime":1060.973,"body":"consequences of that smoke being"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1057.663,"endTime":1060.973,"body":"producing that compartment?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1061.333,"endTime":1061.663,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1061.693,"endTime":1062.983,"body":"Maybe that will be acceptable."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1062.983,"endTime":1064.333,"body":"Maybe it's a storage room."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1064.333,"endTime":1065.323,"body":"There won't be anyone."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1065.323,"endTime":1066.733,"body":"You will just lose property."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1066.823,"endTime":1067.183,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1067.333,"endTime":1068.053,"body":"Fair enough."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1068.583,"endTime":1070.803,"body":"But let's say that the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1068.583,"endTime":1070.803,"body":"heat is enough so that you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1070.803,"endTime":1073.293,"body":"actually lose  structural"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1070.803,"endTime":1073.293,"body":"integrity of the door."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1073.323,"endTime":1076.503,"body":"And now that smoke is moving"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1073.323,"endTime":1076.503,"body":"into the rest of the building."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1076.54,"endTime":1079.64,"body":"How far are you willing to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1076.54,"endTime":1079.64,"body":"accept that smoke, to travel"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1079.73,"endTime":1083.57,"body":"and to accumulate before it"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1079.73,"endTime":1083.57,"body":"causes trouble to the occupants?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1083.57,"endTime":1086.09,"body":"And I guess these are"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1083.57,"endTime":1086.09,"body":"very basic concepts of"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1086.09,"endTime":1087.05,"body":"fire safety engineering."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1087.05,"endTime":1090.39,"body":"This is nothing new, but,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1087.05,"endTime":1090.39,"body":"The difference with maximum"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1090.39,"endTime":1095.07,"body":"allowable damage is that we"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1090.39,"endTime":1095.07,"body":"really push those boundaries"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1095.13,"endTime":1099.24,"body":"of how bad things can get"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1095.13,"endTime":1099.24,"body":"to understand what the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1099.24,"endTime":1102.55,"body":"building can actually do,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1099.24,"endTime":1102.55,"body":"in terms of performance."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1102.88,"endTime":1107.68,"body":"So to give you an example, my"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1102.88,"endTime":1107.68,"body":"first case study in the PhD"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1107.68,"endTime":1109.93,"body":"was a multi occupancy building."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1110.38,"endTime":1113.04,"body":"And, we had a fire"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1110.38,"endTime":1113.04,"body":"anywhere in the building."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1113.07,"endTime":1115.89,"body":"And what we did is, well,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1113.07,"endTime":1115.89,"body":"the fire doors are not"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1115.89,"endTime":1117.17,"body":"going to be, available."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1117.23,"endTime":1119.78,"body":"They're going to be open"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1117.23,"endTime":1119.78,"body":"because we know that can happen."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1119.87,"endTime":1123.2,"body":"Nobody can ensure that those"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1119.87,"endTime":1123.2,"body":"doors will work for sure."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1123.62,"endTime":1125.87,"body":"And of course, if they"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1123.62,"endTime":1125.87,"body":"are there and they work"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1125.93,"endTime":1127.36,"body":"great,  that's amazing."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1127.36,"endTime":1130.93,"body":"And they should be there, but"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1127.36,"endTime":1130.93,"body":"we need to understand if they"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1130.93,"endTime":1133.27,"body":"do fail for whatever reason."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1133.35,"endTime":1136.71,"body":"If that happens, will the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1133.35,"endTime":1136.71,"body":"building be able to perform."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1137.625,"endTime":1140.415,"body":"As good as we wanted"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1137.625,"endTime":1140.415,"body":"to, in terms of in that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1140.415,"endTime":1141.705,"body":"case, it was life safety."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1141.755,"endTime":1144.785,"body":"And we found out that it"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1141.755,"endTime":1144.785,"body":"is feasible to design the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1144.785,"endTime":1147.905,"body":"building to achieve that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1144.785,"endTime":1147.905,"body":"performance objective."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1148.325,"endTime":1151.715,"body":"So it's just a matter of how you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1148.325,"endTime":1151.715,"body":"frame that and how you use the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1152.015,"endTime":1155.265,"body":"concept of risk to get there."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1155.535,"endTime":1159.311,"body":"And if you identify that,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1155.535,"endTime":1159.311,"body":"actually you cannot achieve it."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1159.551,"endTime":1162.731,"body":"Then you can start"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1159.551,"endTime":1162.731,"body":"modifying the design or"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1162.731,"endTime":1165.101,"body":"imposing operational rules."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1165.581,"endTime":1167.261,"body":"You can start saying,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1165.581,"endTime":1167.261,"body":"well, building is not"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1167.261,"endTime":1170.351,"body":"gonna going to be available"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1167.261,"endTime":1170.351,"body":"for these many people."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1170.351,"endTime":1173.261,"body":"It's only going to be restricted"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1170.351,"endTime":1173.261,"body":"to these amount of people or for"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1173.261,"endTime":1177.071,"body":"these fuel load, whether you can"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1173.261,"endTime":1177.071,"body":"actually control that or not."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1177.531,"endTime":1180.081,"body":"That's a different problem,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1177.531,"endTime":1180.081,"body":"but you, as a fire safety"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1180.081,"endTime":1183.741,"body":"engineer will be able to draw"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1180.081,"endTime":1183.741,"body":"those lines and say, look,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1183.771,"endTime":1185.361,"body":"this is what I can design for."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1185.871,"endTime":1188.301,"body":"If you can manage that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1185.871,"endTime":1188.301,"body":"in the real operation."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1188.801,"endTime":1190.001,"body":"Then you can go ahead."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1190.031,"endTime":1192.761,"body":"If you cannot, then you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1190.031,"endTime":1192.761,"body":"need to redesign it because"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1192.771,"endTime":1193.961,"body":"this is not working."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1194.021,"endTime":1196.121,"body":"And that was kind"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1194.021,"endTime":1196.121,"body":"of the main idea."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1196.171,"endTime":1197.221,"body":"Let"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1196.171,"endTime":1197.221,"body":"me stop you for a second."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1197.221,"endTime":1201.961,"body":"I'll just quickly explain"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1197.221,"endTime":1201.961,"body":"because, we have a varied"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1202.321,"endTime":1205.341,"body":"audience in the podcast"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1202.321,"endTime":1205.341,"body":"from combustion engineers"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1205.341,"endTime":1206.351,"body":"to evacuation people."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1206.351,"endTime":1209.651,"body":"So, with the basic concept of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1206.351,"endTime":1209.651,"body":"riskwhat Jaime means is that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1209.651,"endTime":1213.781,"body":"we usually results to quantify,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1209.651,"endTime":1213.781,"body":"the general probability of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1213.781,"endTime":1217.951,"body":"a certain size of a fire to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1213.781,"endTime":1217.951,"body":"happen in terms of how often"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1217.951,"endTime":1219.211,"body":"per year it would happen."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1219.661,"endTime":1222.746,"body":"Then you would calculate how"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1219.661,"endTime":1222.746,"body":"much people it will kill through"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1222.746,"endTime":1225.296,"body":"some methods like in CFD."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1225.296,"endTime":1227.876,"body":"Sometimes its just"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1225.296,"endTime":1227.876,"body":"tabularized, sometimes use"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1227.876,"endTime":1228.866,"body":"zone modeling for that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1228.866,"endTime":1231.856,"body":"Sometimes you run a Monte Carlo"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1228.866,"endTime":1231.856,"body":"for that, but you generally, you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1231.866,"endTime":1235.496,"body":"have to combine the probability"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1231.866,"endTime":1235.496,"body":"and the consequences."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1236.006,"endTime":1237.116,"body":"And once you get that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1237.536,"endTime":1241.406,"body":"For a fire that happens once in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1237.536,"endTime":1241.406,"body":"a year, no one dies for a fire."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1241.406,"endTime":1244.406,"body":"That's probably in like one in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1241.406,"endTime":1244.406,"body":"a hundred years, 10 people dies."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1244.856,"endTime":1247.616,"body":"You end up with some"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1244.856,"endTime":1247.616,"body":"value of risk when you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1247.616,"endTime":1248.696,"body":"multiply them together."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1249.086,"endTime":1251.366,"body":"And when you have that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1249.086,"endTime":1251.366,"body":"number, it's a matter"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1251.366,"endTime":1253.556,"body":"of local acceptance."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1253.886,"endTime":1258.909,"body":"What kinds let's say risk"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1253.886,"endTime":1258.909,"body":"value is acceptable and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1258.969,"endTime":1260.409,"body":"you pretty much stop there."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1260.679,"endTime":1261.729,"body":"You reach that number."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1261.779,"endTime":1263.409,"body":"That's the end of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1261.779,"endTime":1263.409,"body":"the risk assessment."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1263.859,"endTime":1267.819,"body":"Of course, I think you can"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1263.859,"endTime":1267.819,"body":"still go like somewhere where"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1267.819,"endTime":1271.479,"body":"you went with your methodology"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1267.819,"endTime":1271.479,"body":"that, you could seek, reducing"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1271.509,"endTime":1272.109,"body":"that risk."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1272.109,"endTime":1275.719,"body":"You could see alternative"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1272.109,"endTime":1275.719,"body":"pathways and I've seen that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1275.929,"endTime":1279.159,"body":"in many places that, this is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1275.929,"endTime":1279.159,"body":"used, but in, principle, in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1279.159,"endTime":1281.359,"body":"engineering, you just seek"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1279.159,"endTime":1281.359,"body":"that value and that's it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1281.959,"endTime":1283.819,"body":"David, David wants"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1281.959,"endTime":1283.819,"body":"to comment, go on."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1283.859,"endTime":1284.189,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1284.224,"endTime":1286.077,"body":"I just wanted"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1284.224,"endTime":1286.077,"body":"to say that, with focusing"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1286.077,"endTime":1287.667,"body":"on the consequences,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1286.077,"endTime":1287.667,"body":"the way that Jaime does"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1287.947,"endTime":1290.557,"body":"it's almost looking at the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1287.947,"endTime":1290.557,"body":"inherent risk in a building."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1290.567,"endTime":1292.177,"body":"So it's almost taking"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1290.567,"endTime":1292.177,"body":"a concept from another,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1292.177,"endTime":1293.797,"body":"from other engineering"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1292.177,"endTime":1293.797,"body":"disciplines to understand"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1293.797,"endTime":1294.757,"body":"what is the inherent risk?"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1294.757,"endTime":1297.557,"body":"What is the, when you strip"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1294.757,"endTime":1297.557,"body":"out all of the controls, all"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1297.607,"endTime":1299.587,"body":"of the fire safety features"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1297.607,"endTime":1299.587,"body":"in the building, there are"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1299.587,"endTime":1301.927,"body":"controls that help to reduce"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1299.587,"endTime":1301.927,"body":"the risks they help to manage"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1302.287,"endTime":1305.407,"body":"the, both the consequences and"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1302.287,"endTime":1305.407,"body":"the likelihood of the occurrence"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1305.407,"endTime":1306.887,"body":"of a significant scenario."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1306.887,"endTime":1308.767,"body":"A scenario that challenges"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1306.887,"endTime":1308.767,"body":"the fire safety strategy"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1308.767,"endTime":1309.187,"body":"in the building."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1309.727,"endTime":1311.977,"body":"If you strip all of those"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1309.727,"endTime":1311.977,"body":"out, then what you're left"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1311.977,"endTime":1313.777,"body":"with is the inherent risk"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1311.977,"endTime":1313.777,"body":"that's inside of the building."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1313.777,"endTime":1314.947,"body":"Once everything else has failed."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1315.367,"endTime":1317.907,"body":"And that's, that's really the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1315.367,"endTime":1317.907,"body":"concept that Jaime's calculated"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1318.147,"endTime":1320.241,"body":"tending towards, I think it's"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1318.147,"endTime":1320.241,"body":"probably the best way to put it."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1320.661,"endTime":1322.221,"body":"Once you've calculated"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1320.661,"endTime":1322.221,"body":"the inherent risk, then"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1322.221,"endTime":1325.071,"body":"you can start to fit back"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1322.221,"endTime":1325.071,"body":"into controls to optimize."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1325.911,"endTime":1329.101,"body":"The fire safety strategy to"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1325.911,"endTime":1329.101,"body":"get below sometimes  some kind"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1329.101,"endTime":1331.141,"body":"of a target F-N curve, if you,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1329.101,"endTime":1331.141,"body":"if that's what you're doing."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1331.591,"endTime":1333.061,"body":"But I wanted also to"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1331.591,"endTime":1333.061,"body":"comment on the idea of"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1333.061,"endTime":1334.381,"body":"targets curves as well."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1334.761,"endTime":1337.921,"body":"The idea of having, a target"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1334.761,"endTime":1337.921,"body":"risk that we need to design"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1337.921,"endTime":1340.694,"body":"below is, it's maybe a little"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1337.921,"endTime":1340.694,"body":"bit counterintuitive, in some"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1340.694,"endTime":1344.344,"body":"respects, what is a tolerable"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1340.694,"endTime":1344.344,"body":"risk will not be the same from"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1344.344,"endTime":1345.424,"body":"one stakeholder to another."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1345.514,"endTime":1345.754,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1345.754,"endTime":1348.644,"body":"So, there's a significant"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1345.754,"endTime":1348.644,"body":"dialogue that needs to be had"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1348.644,"endTime":1351.164,"body":"with all relevant stakeholders"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1348.644,"endTime":1351.164,"body":"with members of the public,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1351.164,"endTime":1353.964,"body":"with policy makers, with fire"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1351.164,"endTime":1353.964,"body":"rescue authorities, with the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1353.964,"endTime":1356.204,"body":"owners of the building, with"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1353.964,"endTime":1356.204,"body":"the insurers of the building, it"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1356.204,"endTime":1357.374,"body":"was very significant dialogue."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1357.374,"endTime":1359.854,"body":"And if we set a"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1357.374,"endTime":1359.854,"body":"target level of risk."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1360.164,"endTime":1362.654,"body":"Before we even go and do any"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1360.164,"endTime":1362.654,"body":"kind of engineering analysis,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1362.954,"endTime":1366.164,"body":"then what we end up doing"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1362.954,"endTime":1366.164,"body":"is we focus on demonstrating"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1366.164,"endTime":1368.084,"body":"compliance, as opposed to"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1366.164,"endTime":1368.084,"body":"demonstrate on the performance"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1368.084,"endTime":1369.914,"body":"of the building or understanding"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1368.084,"endTime":1369.914,"body":"the performance of a building."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1370.394,"endTime":1372.374,"body":"And that process of"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1370.394,"endTime":1372.374,"body":"demonstrating compliance leads"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1372.374,"endTime":1374.954,"body":"you down a potentially very"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1372.374,"endTime":1374.954,"body":"dangerous pathway, especially"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1374.954,"endTime":1377.444,"body":"when we're dealing with the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1374.954,"endTime":1377.444,"body":"very low, apparently very low"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1377.444,"endTime":1379.574,"body":"probabilities that we often"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1377.444,"endTime":1379.574,"body":"talk about in fire safety"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1379.574,"endTime":1381.854,"body":"engineering, where you can"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1379.574,"endTime":1381.854,"body":"tweak the one number one way or"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1381.854,"endTime":1384.314,"body":"another way to make a slightly"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1381.854,"endTime":1384.314,"body":"different assumption, which on"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1384.314,"endTime":1386.984,"body":"the face of it seems reasonable,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1384.314,"endTime":1386.984,"body":"but all you're really doing is"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1386.984,"endTime":1389.534,"body":"demonstrating it to compliance,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1386.984,"endTime":1389.534,"body":"demonstrating compliance of the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1389.534,"endTime":1393.124,"body":"design, as opposed to really"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1389.534,"endTime":1393.124,"body":"understanding the performance."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1393.634,"endTime":1395.794,"body":"The point that I'm trying to get"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1393.634,"endTime":1395.794,"body":"at is that if you go down the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1395.794,"endTime":1398.164,"body":"route of trying to understand"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1395.794,"endTime":1398.164,"body":"the performance, as opposed to"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1398.164,"endTime":1400.984,"body":"demonstrate compliance, then you"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1398.164,"endTime":1400.984,"body":"can have a conversation with all"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1400.984,"endTime":1403.954,"body":"of the stakeholders about that"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1400.984,"endTime":1403.954,"body":"performance and understand is"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1403.954,"endTime":1407.044,"body":"this a risk that you are willing"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":1403.954,"endTime":1407.044,"body":"to tolerate as the state."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1407.531,"endTime":1407.831,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1407.861,"endTime":1409.307,"body":"And, on the back of that,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1409.439,"endTime":1413.579,"body":"If you do an analysis where"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1409.439,"endTime":1413.579,"body":"you understand that inherent"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1413.579,"endTime":1418.219,"body":"risk and you're happy with that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1413.579,"endTime":1418.219,"body":"risk, you're willing to accept"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1418.219,"endTime":1420.619,"body":"that you have a conversation"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1418.219,"endTime":1420.619,"body":"where different stakeholders"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1420.619,"endTime":1424.339,"body":"say yes, even when all of these"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1420.619,"endTime":1424.339,"body":"different things fail, we're"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1424.339,"endTime":1425.869,"body":"willing to accept that risk."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1426.439,"endTime":1429.229,"body":"That's a very different"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1426.439,"endTime":1429.229,"body":"scenario than the one"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1429.229,"endTime":1430.729,"body":"that David was describing."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1430.729,"endTime":1435.652,"body":"When you just somehow achieve"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1430.729,"endTime":1435.652,"body":"a number that combines these"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1435.712,"endTime":1440.152,"body":"two concepts of likelihood"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1435.712,"endTime":1440.152,"body":"and consequence, you somehow"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1440.182,"endTime":1442.942,"body":"end up with this number,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1440.182,"endTime":1442.942,"body":"which is fatalities per year."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1443.524,"endTime":1447.634,"body":"And because you achieve this"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1443.524,"endTime":1447.634,"body":"number, then you're in a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1447.634,"endTime":1455.231,"body":"situation where you pass, where"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1447.634,"endTime":1455.231,"body":"you are between quotes safe and."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1455.606,"endTime":1456.986,"body":"The reality is not that."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1458.173,"endTime":1461.713,"body":"building in the world will stop"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1458.173,"endTime":1461.713,"body":"burning because you got a number"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1461.713,"endTime":1463.633,"body":"right on your calculation."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1463.963,"endTime":1467.503,"body":"That's not going to stop any"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1463.963,"endTime":1467.503,"body":"building from catching fire."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1468.073,"endTime":1470.353,"body":"That's not going to stop"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1468.073,"endTime":1470.353,"body":"things from going wrong."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1470.383,"endTime":1472.483,"body":"That's not going to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1470.383,"endTime":1472.483,"body":"stop scenarios from"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1472.483,"endTime":1475.413,"body":"happening, just because"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1472.483,"endTime":1475.413,"body":"you didn't think of them."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1475.533,"endTime":1479.863,"body":"And, at the basis of both"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1475.533,"endTime":1479.863,"body":"approaches both what I came up"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1479.863,"endTime":1483.943,"body":"with in the PhD and in a more"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1479.863,"endTime":1483.943,"body":"traditional risk assessment,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1484.423,"endTime":1486.253,"body":"you have the same problem."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1486.343,"endTime":1490.813,"body":"I need coming up with the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1486.343,"endTime":1490.813,"body":"scenarios and that's why in my"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1490.813,"endTime":1494.023,"body":"methodology, we were pushing"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1490.813,"endTime":1494.023,"body":"for the most challenging"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1494.023,"endTime":1497.053,"body":"scenarios possible because at"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1494.023,"endTime":1497.053,"body":"least that gives you a sort of"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1497.233,"endTime":1499.243,"body":"boundary for that inherent risk."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1499.993,"endTime":1502.793,"body":"But when you do a more"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1499.993,"endTime":1502.793,"body":"traditional approach, you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1502.793,"endTime":1506.333,"body":"rely on your expertise and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1502.793,"endTime":1506.333,"body":"your previous experience."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1507.038,"endTime":1511.028,"body":"To come up with the scenarios"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1507.038,"endTime":1511.028,"body":"and how many are enough?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1511.058,"endTime":1512.798,"body":"Are you actually"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1511.058,"endTime":1512.798,"body":"capturing all of them?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1512.828,"endTime":1515.528,"body":"What if this is the first"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1512.828,"endTime":1515.528,"body":"piece of infrastructure"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1515.918,"endTime":1517.698,"body":"that is built of this type?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1517.958,"endTime":1520.418,"body":"Nobody will have any"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1517.958,"endTime":1520.418,"body":"reference for this scenarios."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1520.868,"endTime":1524.738,"body":"So assuming that you will"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1520.868,"endTime":1524.738,"body":"be able to capture all the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1524.738,"endTime":1527.678,"body":"scenarios that you need"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1524.738,"endTime":1527.678,"body":"to actually demonstrate an"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1527.678,"endTime":1533.408,"body":"acceptable risk it's in itself,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1527.678,"endTime":1533.408,"body":"basically in viable, you won't"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1533.648,"endTime":1538.178,"body":"ever have enough time people"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1533.648,"endTime":1538.178,"body":"and money to explore all"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1538.178,"endTime":1541.178,"body":"those different scenarios, to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1538.178,"endTime":1541.178,"body":"run the calculations for all"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1541.178,"endTime":1542.228,"body":"those different scenarios."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1542.438,"endTime":1543.938,"body":"So you have to hand pick them."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1544.088,"endTime":1548.138,"body":"And this is at the very"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1544.088,"endTime":1548.138,"body":"bottom or the very core"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1548.198,"endTime":1549.548,"body":"of any risk assessment."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1549.548,"endTime":1552.308,"body":"You have to pick the scenarios"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1549.548,"endTime":1552.308,"body":"that you're going to be"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1552.308,"endTime":1555.128,"body":"designing for, that you're"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1552.308,"endTime":1555.128,"body":"going to be exploring further."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1555.668,"endTime":1556.328,"body":"And it's a."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1557.213,"endTime":1560.363,"body":"Qualitative, very"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1557.213,"endTime":1560.363,"body":"subjective driven process."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1560.873,"endTime":1564.713,"body":"And so far we haven't come"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1560.873,"endTime":1564.713,"body":"up with any other way of,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1564.773,"endTime":1566.183,"body":"identifying the scenarios."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1566.233,"endTime":1569.533,"body":"It relies on us as"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1566.233,"endTime":1569.533,"body":"professionals to determine them."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1569.983,"endTime":1575.293,"body":"So when you open the door to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1569.983,"endTime":1575.293,"body":"a target, achieving a target,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1576.103,"endTime":1578.743,"body":"you need to start questioning"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1576.103,"endTime":1578.743,"body":"well, which scenarios did"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1578.743,"endTime":1581.623,"body":"you pick to get these numbers"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1578.743,"endTime":1581.623,"body":"that you got at the end?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1581.713,"endTime":1585.613,"body":"Are these, the scenarios that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1581.713,"endTime":1585.613,"body":"actually matter or not, maybe"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1585.613,"endTime":1589.783,"body":"in those scenarios, you're just"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1585.613,"endTime":1589.783,"body":"assuming that all the systems"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1589.783,"endTime":1593.053,"body":"will be working as you intended"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1589.783,"endTime":1593.053,"body":"all the protections, everything"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1593.053,"endTime":1594.463,"body":"the people will be behaving."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1594.463,"endTime":1597.103,"body":"And this is something that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1594.463,"endTime":1597.103,"body":"Brian mentioned, people don't"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1597.103,"endTime":1599.893,"body":"behave as we expect them to do."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1600.553,"endTime":1602.653,"body":"There's a lot of things"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1600.553,"endTime":1602.653,"body":"that won't happen in"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1602.653,"endTime":1604.576,"body":"the way we design for."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1605.056,"endTime":1609.336,"body":"So when you design for"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1605.056,"endTime":1609.336,"body":"that and your justification"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1609.336,"endTime":1613.296,"body":"for it being acceptable is"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1609.336,"endTime":1613.296,"body":"that it's very unlikely for"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1613.296,"endTime":1616.446,"body":"example, that the likelihood,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1613.296,"endTime":1616.446,"body":"is extremely low, yeah."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1616.446,"endTime":1617.616,"body":"These can be really bad."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1617.616,"endTime":1621.396,"body":"These might be able actually"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1617.616,"endTime":1621.396,"body":"to kill a lot of people or"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1621.426,"endTime":1624.576,"body":"collapse the building, but"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1621.426,"endTime":1624.576,"body":"the likelihood is so low."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1624.859,"endTime":1627.979,"body":"You need to question what is"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1624.859,"endTime":1627.979,"body":"the basis for that likelihood?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1627.979,"endTime":1631.069,"body":"And if you look at the work of"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1627.979,"endTime":1631.069,"body":"Ruben that you mentioned before,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1631.369,"endTime":1633.709,"body":"that's a very strong basis."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1633.739,"endTime":1635.989,"body":"That's a very, very"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1633.739,"endTime":1635.989,"body":"strong basis because"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1635.999,"endTime":1637.739,"body":"you're analyzing the I'll"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1637.819,"endTime":1641.479,"body":"system and I'm by no means"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1637.819,"endTime":1641.479,"body":"I have any knowledge of"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1641.479,"endTime":1645.469,"body":"structural engineer, but I can"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1641.479,"endTime":1645.469,"body":"see how that is a structure."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1645.799,"endTime":1648.439,"body":"Those scenarios are"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1645.799,"endTime":1648.439,"body":"structure from the basis,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1648.439,"endTime":1650.749,"body":"from the fundamentals of"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1648.439,"endTime":1650.749,"body":"structural engineering."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1650.779,"endTime":1651.439,"body":"When you look at."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1651.83,"endTime":1654.886,"body":"You potentially doing,  in a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1651.83,"endTime":1654.886,"body":"probabilistic or quantitative"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1654.886,"endTime":1657.496,"body":"risk assessment in a building,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1654.886,"endTime":1657.496,"body":"the way that you structured"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1657.496,"endTime":1659.426,"body":"those scenarios is very loose."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1659.546,"endTime":1663.356,"body":"It's very hard to figure"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1659.546,"endTime":1663.356,"body":"out exactly who is going to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1663.356,"endTime":1666.026,"body":"come up with the scenarios"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1663.356,"endTime":1666.026,"body":"and how you're going to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1666.056,"endTime":1668.606,"body":"check that those scenarios"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1666.056,"endTime":1668.606,"body":"are actually good, which is"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1668.606,"endTime":1670.316,"body":"what they call design fires."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1670.916,"endTime":1672.536,"body":"And there's no"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1670.916,"endTime":1672.536,"body":"answer for that one."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1672.566,"endTime":1677.906,"body":"So yeah, going back to my,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1672.566,"endTime":1677.906,"body":"that methodology, we developed"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1677.906,"endTime":1681.036,"body":"with David and Jose, that is"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1677.906,"endTime":1681.036,"body":"something that you can hold"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1681.036,"endTime":1684.816,"body":"onto because you will know"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1681.036,"endTime":1684.816,"body":"that's at design boundary."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1684.916,"endTime":1688.556,"body":"You will be able to be held"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1684.916,"endTime":1688.556,"body":"accountable to that boundary"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1688.916,"endTime":1692.576,"body":"while with the likelihoods,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1688.916,"endTime":1692.576,"body":"you rely on a lot of databases"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1692.576,"endTime":1695.816,"body":"and a lot of information"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1692.576,"endTime":1695.816,"body":"that most often than not"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1695.846,"endTime":1697.466,"body":"is simply not available."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1697.734,"endTime":1697.944,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1697.944,"endTime":1701.884,"body":"But when you are seeking that,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1697.944,"endTime":1701.884,"body":"Maximum Allowable Damage."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1701.914,"endTime":1704.924,"body":"If you're seeking this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1701.914,"endTime":1704.924,"body":"inherent risk of the building,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1705.344,"endTime":1708.404,"body":"you still have to do some"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1705.344,"endTime":1708.404,"body":"assumptions of how the fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1708.404,"endTime":1712.124,"body":"can go in that building to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1708.404,"endTime":1712.124,"body":"find that inherent value."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1712.124,"endTime":1712.544,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1712.644,"endTime":1717.334,"body":"So, to what extent it is,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1712.644,"endTime":1717.334,"body":"like scenario sensitive"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1717.868,"endTime":1718.078,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1718.108,"endTime":1721.548,"body":"So that's actually a great"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1718.108,"endTime":1721.548,"body":"question because that was a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1721.548,"endTime":1725.268,"body":"part, as I said, that was at"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1721.548,"endTime":1725.268,"body":"the core of the risk assessment."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1725.298,"endTime":1727.038,"body":"And during the process"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1727.038,"endTime":1729.818,"body":"of the PhD, we were always"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1727.038,"endTime":1729.818,"body":"questioning ourselves,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1730.038,"endTime":1731.838,"body":"how are we actually"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1730.038,"endTime":1731.838,"body":"going to deal with this?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1732.018,"endTime":1733.158,"body":"Because we can come up with"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1733.208,"endTime":1736.598,"body":"any sort of approach to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1733.208,"endTime":1736.598,"body":"quantify the consequences"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1736.598,"endTime":1740.768,"body":"and to justify why we're not"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1736.598,"endTime":1740.768,"body":"taking into account the fire"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1740.768,"endTime":1744.428,"body":"doors, for example, which most"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1740.768,"endTime":1744.428,"body":"people would say, that's crazy."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1745.028,"endTime":1745.358,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1745.388,"endTime":1746.228,"body":"We can justify it."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1747.053,"endTime":1750.203,"body":"What about the assumptions"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1747.053,"endTime":1750.203,"body":"underlying the scenarios"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1750.203,"endTime":1751.373,"body":"that we did choose."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1752.003,"endTime":1754.733,"body":"And we got some inspiration from"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1754.783,"endTime":1757.363,"body":"someone who actually,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1754.783,"endTime":1757.363,"body":"Brian also mentioned him"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1757.393,"endTime":1762.033,"body":"Henrik Gellan in Norway"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1757.393,"endTime":1762.033,"body":"and,  they, they are from"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1762.273,"endTime":1766.313,"body":"the University of Stavanger"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1762.273,"endTime":1766.313,"body":"and, particularly professor"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1766.473,"endTime":1769.823,"body":"Aben he developed a concept,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1766.473,"endTime":1769.823,"body":"basically what he said is"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1769.853,"endTime":1771.953,"body":"in a risk assessment, you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1769.853,"endTime":1771.953,"body":"make all these assumptions,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1771.953,"endTime":1773.443,"body":"including, the scenarios."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1773.983,"endTime":1778.273,"body":"So you need to have some sort"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1773.983,"endTime":1778.273,"body":"of additional tool to control"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1778.303,"endTime":1780.913,"body":"how good those assumptions are."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1781.363,"endTime":1786.463,"body":"And because of the definition"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1781.363,"endTime":1786.463,"body":"that he uses quite often of risk"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1786.553,"endTime":1790.783,"body":"includes not only likelihood"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1786.553,"endTime":1790.783,"body":"and consequences, but also"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1790.783,"endTime":1794.593,"body":"the strength of knowledge,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1790.783,"endTime":1794.593,"body":"basically how much knowledge."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1795.773,"endTime":1797.698,"body":"Underpinning the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1795.773,"endTime":1797.698,"body":"whole assessment."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1797.834,"endTime":1800.234,"body":"That's where he got an"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1797.834,"endTime":1800.234,"body":"additional tool, which is"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1800.534,"endTime":1801.554,"body":"the strength of knowledge."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1801.584,"endTime":1805.214,"body":"So basically in my methodology,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1801.584,"endTime":1805.214,"body":"in Maximum Allowable Damage,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1805.664,"endTime":1808.874,"body":"what you create while you're"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1805.664,"endTime":1808.874,"body":"doing the risk assessment"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1808.874,"endTime":1812.534,"body":"is that you create a library"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1808.874,"endTime":1812.534,"body":"of assumptions and inputs"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1812.564,"endTime":1817.034,"body":"and parameters, and you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1812.564,"endTime":1817.034,"body":"start judging how good your"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1817.034,"endTime":1820.744,"body":"knowledge is about each one of"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1817.034,"endTime":1820.744,"body":"these, which is I admit quite"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1820.744,"endTime":1823.534,"body":"what would you say that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1820.744,"endTime":1823.534,"body":"very intensive work to do?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1823.534,"endTime":1826.084,"body":"Because basically you need to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1823.534,"endTime":1826.084,"body":"check yourself all the time."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1826.354,"endTime":1828.064,"body":"So when you come up"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1826.354,"endTime":1828.064,"body":"with something with a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1828.064,"endTime":1831.004,"body":"calculation, you need to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1828.064,"endTime":1831.004,"body":"check, Hey, wait, which"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1831.004,"endTime":1832.624,"body":"parameters are involved here?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1832.654,"endTime":1836.104,"body":"Are these conservative, or"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1832.654,"endTime":1836.104,"body":"are these very optimistic?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1836.544,"endTime":1839.094,"body":"Is there an alternative"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1836.544,"endTime":1839.094,"body":"parameter here that I should"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1839.094,"endTime":1840.204,"body":"be taking into account?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1840.654,"endTime":1843.324,"body":"And you create these"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1840.654,"endTime":1843.324,"body":"library and you judge each"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1843.324,"endTime":1847.524,"body":"one of them and by judging"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1843.324,"endTime":1847.524,"body":"how good your knowledge"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1847.554,"endTime":1848.664,"body":"is for each one of them."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1849.319,"endTime":1853.249,"body":"And another thing is"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1849.319,"endTime":1853.249,"body":"how each one of them can"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1853.249,"endTime":1856.039,"body":"affect the end result."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1856.069,"endTime":1857.839,"body":"So basically the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1856.069,"endTime":1857.839,"body":"sensitivity, which is what"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1857.839,"endTime":1858.919,"body":"you were asking about."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1859.669,"endTime":1862.939,"body":"Then at the end, you have"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1859.669,"endTime":1862.939,"body":"a library of inputs and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1862.939,"endTime":1866.359,"body":"parameters and assumptions,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1862.939,"endTime":1866.359,"body":"and you will be able to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1866.359,"endTime":1868.069,"body":"prioritize them and figure out"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1868.069,"endTime":1872.119,"body":"there is a set of inputs and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1868.069,"endTime":1872.119,"body":"assumptions that can change"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1872.119,"endTime":1873.859,"body":"my result dramatically."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1874.488,"endTime":1877.008,"body":"And I don't know"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1874.488,"endTime":1877.008,"body":"too much about them."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1877.398,"endTime":1882.348,"body":"So these set of inputs"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1877.398,"endTime":1882.348,"body":"and assumptions, I need"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1882.348,"endTime":1883.308,"body":"to do something about it."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1883.368,"endTime":1885.828,"body":"And that's when they"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1883.368,"endTime":1885.828,"body":"engineering comes in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1885.878,"endTime":1887.378,"body":"so"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1885.878,"endTime":1887.378,"body":"you mean, scenarios that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1887.378,"endTime":1889.858,"body":"would be like they would"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1887.378,"endTime":1889.858,"body":"show high sensitivity."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1890.518,"endTime":1893.878,"body":"And at the same time, let's say"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1890.518,"endTime":1893.878,"body":"low strength of knowledge or"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1894.118,"endTime":1895.228,"body":"moderate strength of knowledge."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1895.228,"endTime":1897.178,"body":"These are the ones that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1895.228,"endTime":1897.178,"body":"are interesting for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1897.178,"endTime":1897.898,"body":"you the most, right."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1898.454,"endTime":1899.104,"body":"Yeah, correct."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1899.104,"endTime":1901.924,"body":"So at the end you might, and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1899.104,"endTime":1901.924,"body":"this is also another thing"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1901.924,"endTime":1908.064,"body":"is not on a path a, to B it's"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1901.924,"endTime":1908.064,"body":"rather an iteration process."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1908.164,"endTime":1911.854,"body":"So you start with a scenario,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1908.164,"endTime":1911.854,"body":"you come up with how that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1911.854,"endTime":1914.314,"body":"scenario, you can actually"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1911.854,"endTime":1914.314,"body":"model that scenario."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1914.434,"endTime":1916.624,"body":"And of course we focus on"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1914.434,"endTime":1916.624,"body":"consequences, but there"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1916.624,"endTime":1919.054,"body":"can be also, probabilistic"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1916.624,"endTime":1919.054,"body":"inputs in there."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1919.407,"endTime":1923.667,"body":"And when you do that library"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1919.407,"endTime":1923.667,"body":"of inputs, parameters, and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1923.667,"endTime":1927.447,"body":"assumptions, and you judge how"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1923.667,"endTime":1927.447,"body":"much you know about them and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1927.447,"endTime":1930.507,"body":"how much they can affect the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1927.447,"endTime":1930.507,"body":"result, then you might need to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1930.507,"endTime":1932.337,"body":"say, okay, I need to go back."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1932.337,"endTime":1935.187,"body":"And I actually need to come"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1932.337,"endTime":1935.187,"body":"up with additional scenarios"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1935.517,"endTime":1938.457,"body":"or additional simulations"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1935.517,"endTime":1938.457,"body":"or additional calculations."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1939.132,"endTime":1941.742,"body":"To see whether I am"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1939.132,"endTime":1941.742,"body":"missing something."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1941.976,"endTime":1945.672,"body":"And that touches on an important"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1941.976,"endTime":1945.672,"body":"point, which is the peer review."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1945.732,"endTime":1950.082,"body":"So these library that you come"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1945.732,"endTime":1950.082,"body":"up with is a very important"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1950.082,"endTime":1954.762,"body":"tool for you to hand over to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1950.082,"endTime":1954.762,"body":"the peer reviewer and say, look,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1954.792,"endTime":1956.232,"body":"these are all my assumptions."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1956.262,"endTime":1959.232,"body":"These are all the things"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1956.262,"endTime":1959.232,"body":"that are the basis for my,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1959.292,"endTime":1960.522,"body":"for my risk assessment."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1961.152,"endTime":1963.042,"body":"And you can challenge"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1961.152,"endTime":1963.042,"body":"these if you want."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1963.252,"endTime":1965.292,"body":"And if you find something"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1963.252,"endTime":1965.292,"body":"that is not right, that's"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1965.292,"endTime":1967.662,"body":"fine because that means"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1965.292,"endTime":1967.662,"body":"that we will improve our"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1967.662,"endTime":1968.802,"body":"understanding of risk."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1969.102,"endTime":1972.502,"body":"So it's not kind of like these"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1969.102,"endTime":1972.502,"body":"pass or fail approach is more"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1972.502,"endTime":1975.592,"body":"on the approach of actually"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1972.502,"endTime":1975.592,"body":"building up those boundaries."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1975.592,"endTime":1978.802,"body":"And I go back to that idea of"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1975.592,"endTime":1978.802,"body":"boundaries, but as David said is"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1978.802,"endTime":1982.702,"body":"about understanding the inherent"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":1978.802,"endTime":1982.702,"body":"risks that you're designing for."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1983.322,"endTime":1984.687,"body":"David"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1983.322,"endTime":1984.687,"body":"in the large part, that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1984.687,"endTime":1988.107,"body":"sounds very similar to some"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1984.687,"endTime":1988.107,"body":"structural concepts where you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1988.227,"endTime":1990.787,"body":"seeking,  like in Eurocode"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1988.227,"endTime":1990.787,"body":"seven, when the building will"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1990.817,"endTime":1993.853,"body":"fail after a  progressive"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1990.817,"endTime":1993.853,"body":"collapse where you find"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1993.853,"endTime":1995.033,"body":"the worst case."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1995.033,"endTime":1998.213,"body":"And then you also seek"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1995.033,"endTime":1998.213,"body":"this worst scenario."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":1998.213,"endTime":2000.223,"body":"So what are happening?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2000.493,"endTime":2003.913,"body":"Can you draw some parallels"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2000.493,"endTime":2003.913,"body":"here to the existing methods"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2003.913,"endTime":2006.283,"body":"that, people could take"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2003.913,"endTime":2006.283,"body":"from like civil engineering?"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2006.963,"endTime":2008.073,"body":"Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2006.963,"endTime":2008.073,"body":"an interesting point,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2008.133,"endTime":2009.733,"body":"Wojciech, I guess you're"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2008.133,"endTime":2009.733,"body":"talking about things like"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2010.023,"endTime":2013.863,"body":"robustness of a structure or"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2010.023,"endTime":2013.863,"body":"a disproportionate collapse"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2013.863,"endTime":2014.763,"body":"in response to an event."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2015.123,"endTime":2016.163,"body":"of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2015.123,"endTime":2016.163,"body":"loads and everything."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2016.603,"endTime":2018.883,"body":"I think it's fair"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2016.603,"endTime":2018.883,"body":"to draw parallels to some extent"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2018.883,"endTime":2021.643,"body":"between those concepts and"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2018.883,"endTime":2021.643,"body":"what Jaime is talking about."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2021.919,"endTime":2023.959,"body":"is actually done with the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2021.919,"endTime":2023.959,"body":"methodology is once you"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2023.959,"endTime":2026.269,"body":"strip out all of the active"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2023.959,"endTime":2026.269,"body":"controls, which is what he's"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2026.269,"endTime":2028.399,"body":"doing, once you strip out"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2026.269,"endTime":2028.399,"body":"all of the active controls."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2028.699,"endTime":2032.749,"body":"If your design is going to be"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2028.699,"endTime":2032.749,"body":"able, if you're, if what's left"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2032.749,"endTime":2035.759,"body":"of the fire safety strategy,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2032.749,"endTime":2035.759,"body":"the compartmentation, the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2035.809,"endTime":2038.979,"body":"egress strategy and so on,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2035.809,"endTime":2038.979,"body":"if that is able to support,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2039.454,"endTime":2041.914,"body":"level of performance or"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2039.454,"endTime":2041.914,"body":"provide a level of performance"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2041.914,"endTime":2043.684,"body":"that is acceptable to"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2041.914,"endTime":2043.684,"body":"all of the stakeholders."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2043.954,"endTime":2046.054,"body":"Essentially what you have is"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2043.954,"endTime":2046.054,"body":"a very, very robust design."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2046.054,"endTime":2047.494,"body":"And what I said before"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2046.054,"endTime":2047.494,"body":"about everything else"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2047.524,"endTime":2048.634,"body":"just becomes optimization."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2048.934,"endTime":2049.924,"body":"Because then what you"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2048.934,"endTime":2049.924,"body":"do is you start to"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2049.924,"endTime":2051.684,"body":"reintroduce the controls."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2051.684,"endTime":2054.084,"body":"You start to reintroduce, for"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2051.684,"endTime":2054.084,"body":"example, sprinklers thought"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2054.084,"endTime":2055.284,"body":"about closures on the doors."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2055.674,"endTime":2058.92,"body":"All of those things,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2055.674,"endTime":2058.92,"body":"provide, an optimization."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2058.92,"endTime":2061.08,"body":"They reduce the level"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2058.92,"endTime":2061.08,"body":"of risk, the residual"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2061.08,"endTime":2061.77,"body":"risk in the building."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2062.01,"endTime":2064.81,"body":"Once you start to, think about"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2062.01,"endTime":2064.81,"body":"the risk of the building, a"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2064.81,"endTime":2067.66,"body":"fire safety risk in terms of"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2064.81,"endTime":2067.66,"body":"inherent risk and residual risk."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2067.82,"endTime":2070.36,"body":"and what you're going to"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2067.82,"endTime":2070.36,"body":"end up, ideally, once you"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2070.36,"endTime":2072.42,"body":"go through that optimization"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2070.36,"endTime":2072.42,"body":"process as well, is that  the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2072.43,"endTime":2075.61,"body":"damage to a building is not"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2072.43,"endTime":2075.61,"body":"disproportionate and that"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2075.61,"endTime":2078.79,"body":"could form not disproportionate"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2075.61,"endTime":2078.79,"body":"to the initiating event that"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2078.79,"endTime":2081.1,"body":"could easily form a part of"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2078.79,"endTime":2081.1,"body":"that optimization strategy."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2081.1,"endTime":2083.92,"body":"So you you're totally right"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2081.1,"endTime":2083.92,"body":"to draw a parallel there."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2084.24,"endTime":2086.32,"body":"one of the things that I"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2084.24,"endTime":2086.32,"body":"think is important here is."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2087.005,"endTime":2089.355,"body":"you did touch on this when"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2087.005,"endTime":2089.355,"body":"you introduced him as well"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2089.355,"endTime":2091.905,"body":"as that Jaime's come from"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2089.355,"endTime":2091.905,"body":"a different discipline,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2091.905,"endTime":2096.375,"body":"which has got a  very mature"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2091.905,"endTime":2096.375,"body":"application of risk assessments"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2096.805,"endTime":2098.972,"body":"into fire safety engineering,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2096.805,"endTime":2098.972,"body":"where I think that, there's"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2098.972,"endTime":2101.342,"body":"definitely some work that could"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2098.972,"endTime":2101.342,"body":"be done to improve the way that"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2101.342,"endTime":2103.502,"body":"we're applying risk assessments"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2101.342,"endTime":2103.502,"body":"and fire safety engineering."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2103.948,"endTime":2105.328,"body":"You"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2103.948,"endTime":2105.328,"body":"mentioned the scenario"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2105.328,"endTime":2107.698,"body":"where is inherent risk"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2105.328,"endTime":2107.698,"body":"is let's say acceptable"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2107.698,"endTime":2108.932,"body":"and then you can work."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2108.932,"endTime":2112.232,"body":"But what if you find out that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2108.932,"endTime":2112.232,"body":"it's absolutely unacceptable?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2112.268,"endTime":2114.502,"body":"if there is no safety measures,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2112.268,"endTime":2114.502,"body":"everyone dies in the building"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2114.502,"endTime":2116.122,"body":"or something terrible happens."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2116.152,"endTime":2116.482,"body":"What"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2116.682,"endTime":2119.042,"body":"So what we're not"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2116.682,"endTime":2119.042,"body":"necessarily talking about as"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2119.042,"endTime":2120.362,"body":"acceptable or unacceptable is."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2120.572,"endTime":2123.625,"body":"So one of the important"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2120.572,"endTime":2123.625,"body":"things about risk assessments"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2123.625,"endTime":2125.275,"body":"in other industries"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2123.625,"endTime":2125.275,"body":"is the process itself."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2125.695,"endTime":2125.905,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2125.905,"endTime":2128.845,"body":"So the process going through"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2125.905,"endTime":2128.845,"body":"the process of conducting the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2128.845,"endTime":2131.425,"body":"risk assessment, understanding"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2128.845,"endTime":2131.425,"body":"what are the inputs to the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2131.425,"endTime":2133.325,"body":"performance of the building,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2131.425,"endTime":2133.325,"body":"understanding the inputs"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2133.575,"endTime":2136.195,"body":"that give you the scenarios"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2133.575,"endTime":2136.195,"body":"that you're going to design"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2136.195,"endTime":2138.775,"body":"the building for, those"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2136.195,"endTime":2138.775,"body":"will inform the decisions"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2138.775,"endTime":2140.595,"body":"that you ultimately take"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2138.775,"endTime":2140.595,"body":"as to , what is acceptable"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2140.595,"endTime":2141.585,"body":"and what is not acceptable."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2141.922,"endTime":2144.282,"body":"This is partly related to what"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2141.922,"endTime":2144.282,"body":"I was talking about before in"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2144.282,"endTime":2147.732,"body":"terms of one risk, but there was"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2144.282,"endTime":2147.732,"body":"not a level of risk, which is"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2147.742,"endTime":2149.632,"body":"acceptable to all stakeholders."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2149.662,"endTime":2149.902,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2150.292,"endTime":2153.892,"body":"The process here is really"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2150.292,"endTime":2153.892,"body":"just to inform, it's a part"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2153.892,"endTime":2156.472,"body":"of a tool to inform the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2153.892,"endTime":2156.472,"body":"decision making process as"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2156.472,"endTime":2160.192,"body":"to whether or not a design is"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2156.472,"endTime":2160.192,"body":"acceptable to all of the things."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2160.402,"endTime":2163.212,"body":"So if you take for example,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2160.402,"endTime":2163.212,"body":"in the UK, and I'm not going"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2163.212,"endTime":2165.972,"body":"to be able to speak to this"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2163.212,"endTime":2165.972,"body":"with a great deal of authority"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2165.972,"endTime":2168.242,"body":"at the moment, but if you"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2165.972,"endTime":2168.242,"body":"take, for example, in the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2168.242,"endTime":2171.662,"body":"UK where the HSC, instead"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2168.242,"endTime":2171.662,"body":"of setting themselves up as"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2171.662,"endTime":2173.952,"body":"an authority, essentially"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2171.662,"endTime":2173.952,"body":"for as part of the risk"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2173.952,"endTime":2176.562,"body":"assessment process for a high"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2173.952,"endTime":2176.562,"body":"rise, residential buildings."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2177.112,"endTime":2179.302,"body":"What you've got is a risk"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2177.112,"endTime":2179.302,"body":"assessment process where they're"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2179.302,"endTime":2184.632,"body":"being informed, by the inherent"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2179.302,"endTime":2184.632,"body":"risk in these HR RPS, uh, as"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2184.632,"endTime":2186.222,"body":"to the level of performance."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2186.222,"endTime":2187.842,"body":"And they're using that"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2186.222,"endTime":2187.842,"body":"to make a decision as to"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2187.842,"endTime":2189.522,"body":"whether or not additional"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2187.842,"endTime":2189.522,"body":"controls need to be for them."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2189.674,"endTime":2192.4,"body":"so in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2189.674,"endTime":2192.4,"body":"end, just doing the process"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2192.4,"endTime":2198.28,"body":"already, uh, highlights"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2192.4,"endTime":2198.28,"body":"the risks or the possible"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2198.98,"endTime":2200.03,"body":"blind spot seem the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2200.11,"endTime":2200.8,"body":"blind spots."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2200.8,"endTime":2201.16,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2201.16,"endTime":2201.49,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2201.59,"endTime":2204.81,"body":"you focus more on like"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2201.59,"endTime":2204.81,"body":"really unraveling these"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2204.81,"endTime":2209.01,"body":"blind spots and seeking the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2204.81,"endTime":2209.01,"body":"solutions for this rather"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2209.01,"endTime":2213.77,"body":"than, just passing a threshold"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2209.01,"endTime":2213.77,"body":"and you know, being safe."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2214.14,"endTime":2214.44,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2214.65,"endTime":2217.44,"body":"Well, before we started"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2214.65,"endTime":2217.44,"body":"recording, you were mentioning"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2217.44,"endTime":2218.22,"body":"something like that."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2218.31,"endTime":2221.58,"body":"If you do a risk assessment"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2218.31,"endTime":2221.58,"body":"really well, you will be"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2221.58,"endTime":2226.8,"body":"able to find a variable,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2221.58,"endTime":2226.8,"body":"for example, having"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2226.98,"endTime":2230.19,"body":"a deluge system or not"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2226.98,"endTime":2230.19,"body":"having a deluge system."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2230.268,"endTime":2233.598,"body":"And whether that actually"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2230.268,"endTime":2233.598,"body":"makes a major difference"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2233.628,"endTime":2236.148,"body":"in those boundaries that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2233.628,"endTime":2236.148,"body":"you're designing for."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2236.211,"endTime":2238.448,"body":"Those are the things that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2236.211,"endTime":2238.448,"body":"we should be looking for."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2238.508,"endTime":2241.328,"body":"We shouldn't be looking"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2238.508,"endTime":2241.328,"body":"at justifying designs."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2241.358,"endTime":2243.968,"body":"We should be looking at"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2241.358,"endTime":2243.968,"body":"understanding what the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2243.968,"endTime":2247.558,"body":"design requires to perform"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2243.968,"endTime":2247.558,"body":"to a particular degree."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2247.631,"endTime":2252.521,"body":"So yeah, that those blind"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2247.631,"endTime":2252.521,"body":"spots or those very essential"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2252.851,"endTime":2255.611,"body":"variables that can actually have"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2252.851,"endTime":2255.611,"body":"an impact on the performance."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2255.641,"endTime":2258.401,"body":"Those are the things that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2255.641,"endTime":2258.401,"body":"we really need to look into."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2258.401,"endTime":2262.901,"body":"And one of my fears and David"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2258.401,"endTime":2262.901,"body":"mentioned these before is when"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2262.901,"endTime":2266.351,"body":"you introduce likelihoods in a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2262.901,"endTime":2266.351,"body":"very mechanistic way, and you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2266.351,"endTime":2270.311,"body":"start combining consequences,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2266.351,"endTime":2270.311,"body":"which in fire safety engineering"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2270.311,"endTime":2273.251,"body":"are very hard because"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2270.311,"endTime":2273.251,"body":"modeling fire is not easy."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2273.251,"endTime":2276.971,"body":"And you had a whole podcast"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2273.251,"endTime":2276.971,"body":"with Wolfram about this, and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2277.391,"endTime":2280.871,"body":"it's very clear that modeling"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2277.391,"endTime":2280.871,"body":"consequences is very hard and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2280.871,"endTime":2283.451,"body":"still that something that you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2280.871,"endTime":2283.451,"body":"would say, that's one of the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2283.451,"endTime":2285.911,"body":"things that we do really well"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2283.451,"endTime":2285.911,"body":"in fire safety engineering."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2286.691,"endTime":2292.211,"body":"Now, if you introduce modeling"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2286.691,"endTime":2292.211,"body":"likelihood, And coming up"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2292.211,"endTime":2295.001,"body":"with scenarios because you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2292.211,"endTime":2295.001,"body":"don't need to come up with"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2295.001,"endTime":2297.191,"body":"one or five or 10 potential."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2297.191,"endTime":2300.101,"body":"You're talking about if you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2297.191,"endTime":2300.101,"body":"really want to do these the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2300.101,"endTime":2302.641,"body":"way they have done it in other"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2300.101,"endTime":2302.641,"body":"industries, you're talking"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2302.641,"endTime":2307.621,"body":"about hundreds of scenarios that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2302.641,"endTime":2307.621,"body":"include all sorts of different"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2307.621,"endTime":2313.171,"body":"combinations of those controls,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2307.621,"endTime":2313.171,"body":"working on the conditions under"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2313.171,"endTime":2314.641,"body":"which a scenario takes place."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2315.061,"endTime":2317.621,"body":"So if you really want to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2315.061,"endTime":2317.621,"body":"go down that path,  the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2317.621,"endTime":2320.621,"body":"requirements that you will have"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2317.621,"endTime":2320.621,"body":"for the professionals involved"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2321.161,"endTime":2322.811,"body":"are completely different."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2323.261,"endTime":2325.991,"body":"You're not only talking"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2323.261,"endTime":2325.991,"body":"about modeling a fire."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2325.991,"endTime":2328.321,"body":"You're talking about"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2325.991,"endTime":2328.321,"body":"constructing  a whole"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2328.561,"endTime":2332.341,"body":"basis of knowledge, of both"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2328.561,"endTime":2332.341,"body":"likelihood and consequences."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2332.401,"endTime":2335.731,"body":"And one key thing that I"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2332.401,"endTime":2335.731,"body":"remember Jose telling me"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2335.781,"endTime":2340.221,"body":"halfway through the PhD is"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2335.781,"endTime":2340.221,"body":"you have to remember that fire"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2340.251,"endTime":2342.501,"body":"scenarios are not an input."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2342.888,"endTime":2345.108,"body":"Fire scenarios are an output."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2345.348,"endTime":2348.198,"body":"You start with an idea of"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2345.348,"endTime":2348.198,"body":"where you might have a fire"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2348.708,"endTime":2351.768,"body":"and you start exploring"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2348.708,"endTime":2351.768,"body":"what that could lead to."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2352.128,"endTime":2355.278,"body":"And you end up with the fire"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2352.128,"endTime":2355.278,"body":"scenario, but you might have"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2355.278,"endTime":2356.838,"body":"to do some calculations."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2356.838,"endTime":2360.508,"body":"And a lot of brain work to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2356.838,"endTime":2360.508,"body":"actually figure out  what"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2360.508,"endTime":2361.708,"body":"the scenario is going to be."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2362.218,"endTime":2366.448,"body":"So that's a major"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2362.218,"endTime":2366.448,"body":"difference between a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2366.448,"endTime":2367.888,"body":"fire say in a chemical."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2368.728,"endTime":2372.388,"body":"And a fire in a building, the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2368.728,"endTime":2372.388,"body":"scenarios are not evident."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2372.448,"endTime":2375.718,"body":"So you cannot just say,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2372.448,"endTime":2375.718,"body":"oh,design fires and check"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2375.778,"endTime":2377.218,"body":"that step is covered."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2377.358,"endTime":2380.038,"body":"No, they actually required"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2377.358,"endTime":2380.038,"body":"each iteration and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2380.308,"endTime":2381.748,"body":"checking those blind spots."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2382.198,"endTime":2386.698,"body":"So all of those things kind"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2382.198,"endTime":2386.698,"body":"of led us towards that idea"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2386.698,"endTime":2390.548,"body":"of maximum allowable damage"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2386.698,"endTime":2390.548,"body":"instead of just, just another"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2390.548,"endTime":2391.871,"body":"way of hitting a target."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2392.311,"endTime":2394.231,"body":"This is"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2392.311,"endTime":2394.231,"body":"very powerful, what you've said."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2394.261,"endTime":2397.871,"body":"And, uh, I think Jose nailed"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2394.261,"endTime":2397.871,"body":"it,  with the sentence and, in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2397.871,"endTime":2401.841,"body":"some of Brian's work, it was"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2397.871,"endTime":2401.841,"body":"also said that the scenarios"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2401.841,"endTime":2405.201,"body":"are inherently connected to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2401.841,"endTime":2405.201,"body":"the course of the fire in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2405.201,"endTime":2407.871,"body":"the building, the building"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2405.201,"endTime":2407.871,"body":"itself, you cannot just take a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2407.871,"endTime":2410.391,"body":"scenario outside of a building"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2407.871,"endTime":2410.391,"body":"and put it into the building"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2410.391,"endTime":2411.741,"body":"because that's very artificial."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2412.191,"endTime":2416.781,"body":"However, this is where it"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2412.191,"endTime":2416.781,"body":"starts to be complicated"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2417.081,"endTime":2418.581,"body":"in the real world."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2418.941,"endTime":2422.091,"body":"You know, if you are an"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2418.941,"endTime":2422.091,"body":"engineer and you want to craft"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2422.091,"endTime":2425.361,"body":"a building, this is where the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2422.091,"endTime":2425.361,"body":"work starts getting tough,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2425.661,"endTime":2430.911,"body":"because if you have a set of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2425.661,"endTime":2430.911,"body":"the design scenarios for which"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2430.911,"endTime":2435.756,"body":"you design, It makes your"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2430.911,"endTime":2435.756,"body":"work more organized, simpler,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2435.756,"endTime":2438.816,"body":"like, you know, that you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2435.756,"endTime":2438.816,"body":"have done all 15 scenarios."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2438.816,"endTime":2439.266,"body":"You're good."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2439.686,"endTime":2441.876,"body":"And this is how it's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2439.686,"endTime":2441.876,"body":"implemented in New Zealand."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2441.906,"endTime":2444.696,"body":"CM/V2 method."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2445.026,"endTime":2446.156,"body":"That's how it is."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2446.216,"endTime":2448.746,"body":"I've mentioned, in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2446.216,"endTime":2448.746,"body":"green room TuRisMo risk"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2448.836,"endTime":2450.126,"body":"assessment method for tunnels."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2450.456,"endTime":2454.286,"body":"And it's like that,  there as"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2450.456,"endTime":2454.286,"body":"well, you have an 18 scenarios"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2454.286,"endTime":2457.456,"body":"for different fires and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2454.286,"endTime":2457.456,"body":"chemical releases for which you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2457.456,"endTime":2461.266,"body":"design and they more or less"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2457.456,"endTime":2461.266,"body":"covered this whole spectrum."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2461.536,"endTime":2465.126,"body":"You know,  it's a problem"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2461.536,"endTime":2465.126,"body":"between having a methodology"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2465.126,"endTime":2469.406,"body":"that's ultimately great and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2465.126,"endTime":2469.406,"body":"methodology that's, easy to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2469.406,"endTime":2472.076,"body":"use, for majority of engineers."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2472.846,"endTime":2474.226,"body":"I guess the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2472.846,"endTime":2474.226,"body":"solution is somewhere in"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2474.226,"endTime":2475.636,"body":"between, because fair enough."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2475.936,"endTime":2477.706,"body":"We cannot come up with"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2475.936,"endTime":2477.706,"body":"all the scenarios."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2477.796,"endTime":2481.066,"body":"And I think I said to myself,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2477.796,"endTime":2481.066,"body":"that's an impossible problem"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2481.096,"endTime":2483.856,"body":"to solve, least now, maybe I"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2481.096,"endTime":2483.856,"body":"don't know, in five years or 10"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2483.856,"endTime":2486.616,"body":"years with the way artificial"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2483.856,"endTime":2486.616,"body":"intelligence is going,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2486.716,"endTime":2490.783,"body":"I hope not, but, it would be"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2486.716,"endTime":2490.783,"body":"very scary to leave a machine"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2490.963,"endTime":2493.543,"body":"to figure out which fire"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2490.963,"endTime":2493.543,"body":"scenario, we're gonna have"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2493.543,"endTime":2495.393,"body":"to analyze, but fair enough."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2495.483,"endTime":2497.223,"body":"That's an unsolvable problem."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2497.453,"endTime":2501.583,"body":"You need to come up with"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2497.453,"endTime":2501.583,"body":"a basis of, as an initial"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2501.583,"endTime":2504.013,"body":"set of scenarios that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2501.583,"endTime":2504.013,"body":"you're going to design for."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2504.313,"endTime":2506.803,"body":"But that's basically the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2504.313,"endTime":2506.803,"body":"same thing I started,  at the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2506.803,"endTime":2511.306,"body":"beginning of the podcast, which"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2506.803,"endTime":2511.306,"body":"is fine, select 15 scenarios,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2511.336,"endTime":2515.116,"body":"2050 scenarios, five that's."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2515.296,"endTime":2518.776,"body":"Those are your boundaries"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2515.296,"endTime":2518.776,"body":"and do a really good work,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2519.316,"endTime":2522.796,"body":"take each scenario and really"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2519.316,"endTime":2522.796,"body":"understand how much you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2522.796,"endTime":2525.916,"body":"know, and how much you don't"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2522.796,"endTime":2525.916,"body":"know about those scenarios."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2526.546,"endTime":2531.346,"body":"See where the sensitivities"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2526.546,"endTime":2531.346,"body":"are and explore the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2531.346,"endTime":2532.426,"body":"hell out of them."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2532.576,"endTime":2535.426,"body":"Each one of them that will"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2532.576,"endTime":2535.426,"body":"give you a basis for design."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2535.426,"endTime":2536.986,"body":"And that will give"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2535.426,"endTime":2536.986,"body":"you those boundaries."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2537.646,"endTime":2538.816,"body":"That's what you can do."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2539.056,"endTime":2539.566,"body":"Go ahead."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2539.626,"endTime":2540.676,"body":"David has something to say."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2540.876,"endTime":2542.136,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2540.876,"endTime":2542.136,"body":"I'm super excited."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2542.766,"endTime":2544.926,"body":"I've been sitting here waving"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2542.766,"endTime":2544.926,"body":"at the camera for awhile."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2545.096,"endTime":2547.166,"body":"no, I just wanted to say that"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2545.096,"endTime":2547.166,"body":"one of the issues though."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2547.226,"endTime":2549.066,"body":"And so the way that"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2547.226,"endTime":2549.066,"body":"you described that"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2549.066,"endTime":2549.836,"body":"Wojciech was really good."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2549.836,"endTime":2551.576,"body":"You talked about an engineer,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2549.836,"endTime":2551.576,"body":"crafting a building."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2552.026,"endTime":2553.796,"body":"It is an inherently"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2552.026,"endTime":2553.796,"body":"creative process."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2553.796,"endTime":2555.656,"body":"There's a great"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2553.796,"endTime":2555.656,"body":"deal of creativity."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2555.656,"endTime":2557.846,"body":"It's an explorative"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2555.656,"endTime":2557.846,"body":"design process."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2558.266,"endTime":2560.666,"body":"Certainly should not be"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2558.266,"endTime":2560.666,"body":"the process of taking a"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2560.666,"endTime":2562.166,"body":"building, which already"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2560.666,"endTime":2562.166,"body":"exists and demonstrating"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2562.166,"endTime":2563.036,"body":"compliance with that building."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2563.036,"endTime":2564.236,"body":"It's a creative process."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2564.236,"endTime":2564.656,"body":"You're right."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2564.716,"endTime":2566.906,"body":"That craft is a very,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2564.716,"endTime":2566.906,"body":"very good word for it."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2567.412,"endTime":2570.572,"body":"We get back to the discussion"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2567.412,"endTime":2570.572,"body":"about, demonstrating performance"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2570.572,"endTime":2572.492,"body":"of a building as opposed to"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2570.572,"endTime":2572.492,"body":"demonstrating compliance,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2572.522,"endTime":2575.012,"body":"demonstrating performance is"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2572.522,"endTime":2575.012,"body":"what we're trying to make a"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2575.012,"endTime":2577.322,"body":"case for here, as opposed to"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2575.012,"endTime":2577.322,"body":"demonstrating compliance again."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2577.802,"endTime":2581.252,"body":"And the problem with, if"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2577.802,"endTime":2581.252,"body":"you try and demonstrate"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2581.252,"endTime":2585.122,"body":"compliance or even demonstrate"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2581.252,"endTime":2585.122,"body":"performance, actually by taking"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2585.182,"endTime":2588.962,"body":"a preselected or predefined"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2585.182,"endTime":2588.962,"body":"set of 15 scenarios, all right."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2589.262,"endTime":2591.732,"body":"That predefined set of 15"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2589.262,"endTime":2591.732,"body":"scenarios, who is who's come"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2591.732,"endTime":2593.352,"body":"up with those, where if they"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2591.732,"endTime":2593.352,"body":"come from they've come from the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2593.352,"endTime":2595.512,"body":"experience of the profession,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2593.352,"endTime":2595.512,"body":"they've come to you from"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2595.512,"endTime":2596.652,"body":"the experience of regulators"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2596.942,"endTime":2600.902,"body":"as to what are the scenarios"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2596.942,"endTime":2600.902,"body":"which have led to potentially"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2600.902,"endTime":2603.212,"body":"unacceptable losses or"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2600.902,"endTime":2603.212,"body":"unforeseen losses in the past."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2603.282,"endTime":2607.921,"body":"if you look back probably"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2603.282,"endTime":2607.921,"body":"before the mid to the early"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2607.921,"endTime":2610.981,"body":"two thousands vertical"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2607.921,"endTime":2610.981,"body":"fire spread through,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2611.081,"endTime":2612.211,"body":"external cladding systems."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2612.211,"endTime":2613.831,"body":"Wasn't a foreseeable scenario."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2613.931,"endTime":2616.601,"body":"By effectively excluding"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2613.931,"endTime":2616.601,"body":"the use of combustible"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2616.601,"endTime":2619.841,"body":"cladding we had eliminated"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2616.601,"endTime":2619.841,"body":"that as a possible scenario."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2619.841,"endTime":2622.511,"body":"So we never needed to consider"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2619.841,"endTime":2622.511,"body":"the effects of vertical fire"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2622.511,"endTime":2624.941,"body":"spread on the evacuation"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2622.511,"endTime":2624.941,"body":"strategy of a building."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2625.121,"endTime":2625.421,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2625.601,"endTime":2627.171,"body":"That, wasn't the scenario"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2625.601,"endTime":2627.171,"body":"we need to account for."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2627.171,"endTime":2629.801,"body":"It now because that's front"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2627.171,"endTime":2629.801,"body":"and center of our minds"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2629.801,"endTime":2631.811,"body":"at the moment that sits in"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2629.801,"endTime":2631.811,"body":"our head that we consider"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2632.111,"endTime":2634.901,"body":"where's the next scenario"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2632.111,"endTime":2634.901,"body":"that we haven't yet seen,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2634.901,"endTime":2637.061,"body":"that leads to unacceptable"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2634.901,"endTime":2637.061,"body":"performance in our building."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2637.481,"endTime":2640.091,"body":"What is that scenario and"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2637.481,"endTime":2640.091,"body":"how can we be sure that"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2640.421,"endTime":2642.401,"body":"just by considering these"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2640.421,"endTime":2642.401,"body":"15 scenarios, we're actually"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2642.401,"endTime":2644.831,"body":"addressing the effects, but"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2642.401,"endTime":2644.831,"body":"the potential impacts of"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2644.831,"endTime":2648.471,"body":"that 16th scenario, that next"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2644.831,"endTime":2648.471,"body":"unforeseen scenario, this goes"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2648.471,"endTime":2652.214,"body":"back again to, the idea of, or"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2648.471,"endTime":2652.214,"body":"calculating or determining the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2652.214,"endTime":2654.644,"body":"inherent risk of the building,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2652.214,"endTime":2654.644,"body":"understanding what is the worst"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2654.644,"endTime":2656.384,"body":"possible performance that we"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2654.644,"endTime":2656.384,"body":"can have in this building."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2656.603,"endTime":2658.853,"body":"Very excited"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2656.603,"endTime":2658.853,"body":"about hearing you say this,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2658.853,"endTime":2662.033,"body":"because taking the experience"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2658.853,"endTime":2662.033,"body":"from a chemical process"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2662.033,"endTime":2666.303,"body":"safety, we have a list and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2662.033,"endTime":2666.303,"body":"we have some books , and even"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2666.303,"endTime":2669.95,"body":"legislation that tells us"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2666.303,"endTime":2669.95,"body":"these are the type of scenarios"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2669.95,"endTime":2673.67,"body":"that you will expect, say in"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2669.95,"endTime":2673.67,"body":"a gas processing facility."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2674.005,"endTime":2677.545,"body":"But you don't have a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2674.005,"endTime":2677.545,"body":"predefined list of scenarios."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2677.755,"endTime":2682.525,"body":"You have to go through that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2677.755,"endTime":2682.525,"body":"very painful creative process."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2682.555,"endTime":2683.875,"body":"It's a brainstorming process."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2683.875,"endTime":2687.025,"body":"And they're actually defined"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2683.875,"endTime":2687.025,"body":"as brainstorming exercises"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2687.565,"endTime":2690.205,"body":"of putting together all"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2687.565,"endTime":2690.205,"body":"the design engineers,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2690.454,"endTime":2694.204,"body":"electronical, electrical,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2690.454,"endTime":2694.204,"body":"control and instrumentation,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2694.234,"endTime":2698.614,"body":"chemical mechanical, and you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2694.234,"endTime":2698.614,"body":"brainstorm the scenarios."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2698.674,"endTime":2702.654,"body":"And, you know, as a facilitator"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2698.674,"endTime":2702.654,"body":"of these exercises, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2702.654,"endTime":2705.354,"body":"which type of scenarios you're"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2702.654,"endTime":2705.354,"body":"targeting, but you don't"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2705.354,"endTime":2706.734,"body":"know the exact scenario."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2706.764,"endTime":2710.304,"body":"And that creative process"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2706.764,"endTime":2710.304,"body":"is the first step in coming"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2710.304,"endTime":2712.654,"body":"up with a plant basically."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2712.654,"endTime":2714.274,"body":"And with the safety features"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2714.274,"endTime":2718.324,"body":"that plant will have, it's"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2714.274,"endTime":2718.324,"body":"a very creative process and"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2718.624,"endTime":2720.814,"body":"you cannot really jump at"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2721.124,"endTime":2725.204,"body":"or skip it by saying, well, this"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2721.124,"endTime":2725.204,"body":"is a gas processing facility."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2725.594,"endTime":2729.434,"body":"Here are your scenarios because"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2725.594,"endTime":2729.434,"body":"each facility will be unique."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2730.274,"endTime":2732.644,"body":"And there, there have been"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2730.274,"endTime":2732.644,"body":"even studies where they have"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2732.644,"endTime":2736.514,"body":"compared the same exact plant"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2732.644,"endTime":2736.514,"body":"in two different countries."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2736.814,"endTime":2737.924,"body":"And the risk is not the same."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2738.854,"endTime":2740.174,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2738.854,"endTime":2740.174,"body":"interesting because I was just"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2740.174,"endTime":2743.624,"body":"thinking about how we design"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2740.174,"endTime":2743.624,"body":"bridges and you have this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2743.704,"endTime":2746.284,"body":"set of, at least in Poland,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2743.704,"endTime":2746.284,"body":"you have a set of standardized"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2746.314,"endTime":2749.944,"body":"bridge designs that you can,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2746.314,"endTime":2749.944,"body":"just pretty much use adapted"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2749.944,"endTime":2753.364,"body":"slightly to your needs, but"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2749.944,"endTime":2753.364,"body":"it generally is it comes pre"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2753.364,"endTime":2756.974,"body":"designed and you know what this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2753.364,"endTime":2756.974,"body":"bridge will hold or whether the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2756.974,"endTime":2758.984,"body":"performance parameters of that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2759.404,"endTime":2761.014,"body":"And you should just"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2759.404,"endTime":2761.014,"body":"build that bridge if you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2761.014,"endTime":2761.974,"body":"need to cross a highway."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2762.304,"endTime":2764.774,"body":"And if you need to build a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2762.304,"endTime":2764.774,"body":"landmark in the middle of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2764.774,"endTime":2768.714,"body":"your town, you go and fully"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2764.774,"endTime":2768.714,"body":"design that from scratch."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2769.254,"endTime":2773.254,"body":"And at the same in here,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2769.254,"endTime":2773.254,"body":"like in fire, we will not"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2773.314,"endTime":2776.614,"body":"be able to use this complex"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2773.314,"endTime":2776.614,"body":"methodologies for all buildings."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2776.614,"endTime":2779.347,"body":"And I don't think we"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2776.614,"endTime":2779.347,"body":"should be because, there"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2779.347,"endTime":2782.5,"body":"are many buildings that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2779.347,"endTime":2782.5,"body":"we could call common."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2782.745,"endTime":2785.145,"body":"you've investigated some"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2782.745,"endTime":2785.145,"body":"residential scenarios in your"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2785.145,"endTime":2789.045,"body":"PhD, but I'm sure you could"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2785.145,"endTime":2789.045,"body":"come up with some common"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2789.045,"endTime":2793.695,"body":"designs for small to medium"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2789.045,"endTime":2793.695,"body":"residential buildings for which"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2793.725,"endTime":2797.055,"body":"you could actually do this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2793.725,"endTime":2797.055,"body":"super complex methodology, go"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2797.055,"endTime":2801.405,"body":"this iterative process, build"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2797.055,"endTime":2801.405,"body":"your library, have the library"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2801.585,"endTime":2807.042,"body":"pre peer reviewed, and then"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2801.585,"endTime":2807.042,"body":"share this as the worked out"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2807.042,"endTime":2809.202,"body":"example for a common case."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2809.682,"endTime":2812.952,"body":"And then like, it could be a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2809.682,"endTime":2812.952,"body":"starting point for an analysis"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2812.952,"endTime":2816.252,"body":"of a different person that,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2812.952,"endTime":2816.252,"body":"okay, this is a common case."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2816.642,"endTime":2819.372,"body":"Let's check out if the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2816.642,"endTime":2819.372,"body":"scenarios here are the same"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2819.372,"endTime":2821.952,"body":"that I would expect in my,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2819.372,"endTime":2821.952,"body":"what are the scenarios that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2821.952,"endTime":2823.392,"body":"I don't expect it to happen?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2823.392,"endTime":2826.812,"body":"What are the scenarios that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2823.392,"endTime":2826.812,"body":"are outside of this analysis?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2826.842,"endTime":2828.342,"body":"And then, build on that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2828.342,"endTime":2831.692,"body":"And that would be quite"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2828.342,"endTime":2831.692,"body":"an efficient way, to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2831.692,"endTime":2833.672,"body":"design a common building."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2834.212,"endTime":2835.442,"body":"I was just going"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2834.212,"endTime":2835.442,"body":"to say, I mean, but you still"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2835.442,"endTime":2837.752,"body":"have in what you're describing"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2835.442,"endTime":2837.752,"body":"or you still have that creative"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2837.752,"endTime":2840.512,"body":"process, you still have that"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2837.752,"endTime":2840.512,"body":"branding brainstorming process."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2840.692,"endTime":2841.342,"body":"There's still a need."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":2842.157,"endTime":2843.087,"body":"In what you're describing,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2843.477,"endTime":2844.647,"body":"it's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2843.477,"endTime":2844.647,"body":"not, that you can take it"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2844.647,"endTime":2847.407,"body":"from the shelf and just print"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2844.647,"endTime":2847.407,"body":"the print of the building."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2847.437,"endTime":2847.617,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2847.687,"endTime":2851.307,"body":"You, but you would need a"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":2847.687,"endTime":2851.307,"body":"starting point, you know?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2851.929,"endTime":2852.079,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2852.119,"endTime":2854.309,"body":"It's, it's the challenging"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2852.119,"endTime":2854.309,"body":"components of the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2854.309,"endTime":2856.019,"body":"process are what matter?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2856.379,"endTime":2860.069,"body":"The mechanistic parts of the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2856.379,"endTime":2860.069,"body":"process are not important."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2860.489,"endTime":2863.849,"body":"Arriving to a number,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2860.489,"endTime":2863.849,"body":"getting the nice FN curve."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2864.329,"endTime":2865.379,"body":"All of that is not important."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2866.309,"endTime":2868.649,"body":"The important part"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2866.309,"endTime":2868.649,"body":"as David highlighted"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2868.739,"endTime":2870.089,"body":"is the understanding."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2870.569,"endTime":2873.839,"body":"And if we don't understand"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2870.569,"endTime":2873.839,"body":"the inherent risk, which"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2873.839,"endTime":2877.799,"body":"is the basis, and I didn't"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2873.839,"endTime":2877.799,"body":"clarify that, but that's the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2877.799,"endTime":2881.189,"body":"starting point of building"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2877.799,"endTime":2881.189,"body":"a chemical plant as well,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2881.219,"endTime":2882.659,"body":"understanding the inherent risk."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2882.689,"endTime":2885.509,"body":"And then you create"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2882.689,"endTime":2885.509,"body":"layers of protection"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2885.509,"endTime":2886.979,"body":"around that inherent risk."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2887.519,"endTime":2890.165,"body":"So if you don't understand"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2887.519,"endTime":2890.165,"body":"the inherent risk, you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2890.165,"endTime":2894.035,"body":"cannot pretend that an FN"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2890.165,"endTime":2894.035,"body":"curve isn't going to provide"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2894.035,"endTime":2896.435,"body":"you with enough evidence to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2894.035,"endTime":2896.435,"body":"say that a building's going"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2896.435,"endTime":2898.542,"body":"to be quote, unquote safe."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2899.185,"endTime":2902.005,"body":"It's just giving you a number"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2899.185,"endTime":2902.005,"body":"that doesn't mean anything else."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2902.145,"endTime":2906.045,"body":"And you need to start digging"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2902.145,"endTime":2906.045,"body":"into the scenarios, into the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2906.045,"endTime":2909.675,"body":"assumptions, into the models"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2906.045,"endTime":2909.675,"body":"that you selected, the way"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2909.675,"endTime":2911.325,"body":"that you run those models."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2911.595,"endTime":2915.015,"body":"And that can become basically"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2911.595,"endTime":2915.015,"body":"a, forensic process if"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2915.015,"endTime":2916.095,"body":"you're a peer reviewer."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2916.185,"endTime":2916.965,"body":"And if you don't have."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2917.85,"endTime":2921.33,"body":"A very structured way of"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2917.85,"endTime":2921.33,"body":"presenting the study, which"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2921.33,"endTime":2924.57,"body":"is one of the things that we"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2921.33,"endTime":2924.57,"body":"strive for when we came up"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2924.57,"endTime":2925.86,"body":"with Maximum Allowable Damage."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2925.89,"endTime":2930.24,"body":"These has to be something that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2925.89,"endTime":2930.24,"body":"can be packaged and can be"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2930.464,"endTime":2934.904,"body":"systematically investigated by"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2930.464,"endTime":2934.904,"body":"a peer reviewer without having"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2934.904,"endTime":2937.724,"body":"that person say, what the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2934.904,"endTime":2937.724,"body":"hell did they try to do here?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2937.724,"endTime":2939.224,"body":"Or how did they"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2937.724,"endTime":2939.224,"body":"come up with this?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2939.254,"endTime":2943.124,"body":"Or no, it has to be very"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2939.254,"endTime":2943.124,"body":"well structured and say,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2944.264,"endTime":2945.524,"body":"here are my scenarios."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2945.914,"endTime":2947.324,"body":"Here are the sensitivities."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2947.654,"endTime":2949.124,"body":"Here are the blind spots."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2949.484,"endTime":2951.224,"body":"This is what we've calculated."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2951.284,"endTime":2952.844,"body":"And this is the end result."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2952.844,"endTime":2954.824,"body":"These are our design boundaries."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2954.824,"endTime":2956.294,"body":"This is what our conclusions."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2956.654,"endTime":2960.694,"body":"So that's one of the other"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2956.654,"endTime":2960.694,"body":"problems, that the experience"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2960.694,"endTime":2964.024,"body":"in chemical process safety"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2960.694,"endTime":2964.024,"body":"has shown that when you have"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2964.024,"endTime":2965.464,"body":"one of these very complex"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2965.514,"endTime":2969.369,"body":"risk assessments, if you"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2965.514,"endTime":2969.369,"body":"don't specify a good structure"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2969.369,"endTime":2973.549,"body":"for them to be,  carried out"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2969.369,"endTime":2973.549,"body":"when you have a peer reviews,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2973.699,"endTime":2977.119,"body":"usually from a government"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2973.699,"endTime":2977.119,"body":"body or from the state body."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2977.44,"endTime":2979.66,"body":"If you don't have it,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2977.44,"endTime":2979.66,"body":"well-structured to begin with,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2979.72,"endTime":2981.25,"body":"they cannot do anything with it."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2981.34,"endTime":2984.16,"body":"They just have to make a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2981.34,"endTime":2984.16,"body":"choice of whether they want"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2984.16,"endTime":2986.38,"body":"to believe in it or not."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2986.5,"endTime":2989.53,"body":"And that's not a good way"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2986.5,"endTime":2989.53,"body":"of figuring out if a system"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2989.56,"endTime":2991.3,"body":"is going to perform well."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2991.647,"endTime":2993.957,"body":"you really need that peer"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2991.647,"endTime":2993.957,"body":"reviewer to be able to"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2993.957,"endTime":2997.557,"body":"understand the whole workflow"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2993.957,"endTime":2997.557,"body":"and to also be part of that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2997.557,"endTime":3001.397,"body":"journey of understanding the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":2997.557,"endTime":3001.397,"body":"risk, not just saying yes."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3001.932,"endTime":3004.072,"body":"And for"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3001.932,"endTime":3004.072,"body":"the final thing, I'm not sure"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3004.072,"endTime":3007.882,"body":"if I missed it or maybe it's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3004.072,"endTime":3007.882,"body":"not in the method, but how"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3007.882,"endTime":3011.182,"body":"does the method,  interlock"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3007.882,"endTime":3011.182,"body":"with like other branches"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3011.182,"endTime":3014.662,"body":"of engineering, because you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3011.182,"endTime":3014.662,"body":"don't want to design fire"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3014.662,"endTime":3015.982,"body":"safety engineering in a silo."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3015.982,"endTime":3020.132,"body":"You don't want to be,  in your"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3015.982,"endTime":3020.132,"body":"bubble where you would do all"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3020.132,"endTime":3023.342,"body":"of this and then comes the,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3020.132,"endTime":3023.342,"body":"structural engineer and the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3023.372,"endTime":3026.692,"body":"changes the outline of the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3023.372,"endTime":3026.692,"body":"floors or worse, there comes"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3026.742,"endTime":3030.432,"body":"some other engineer who turns"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3026.742,"endTime":3030.432,"body":"your facade into a combustible"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3030.432,"endTime":3031.992,"body":"hell without you knowing."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3031.992,"endTime":3035.712,"body":"So where does this interlock"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3031.992,"endTime":3035.712,"body":"with, with the rest of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3035.712,"endTime":3037.302,"body":"the building engineering,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3037.582,"endTime":3038.752,"body":"I'll have"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3037.582,"endTime":3038.752,"body":"a go that's first."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3038.779,"endTime":3039.999,"body":"Again, very good"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3038.779,"endTime":3039.999,"body":"question Wojciech."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3040.259,"endTime":3042.245,"body":"and it actually speaks to"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3040.259,"endTime":3042.245,"body":"a concept which is gaining"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3042.245,"endTime":3043.955,"body":"a lot of traction here in"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3042.245,"endTime":3043.955,"body":"Australia, which I think is"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3043.955,"endTime":3046.785,"body":"quite common for a number"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3043.955,"endTime":3046.785,"body":"of, high profile projects"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3046.785,"endTime":3048.675,"body":"and poorly in a number of"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3046.785,"endTime":3048.675,"body":"different jurisdictions as well."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3048.705,"endTime":3052.125,"body":"Besides your holistic design,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3048.705,"endTime":3052.125,"body":"where the fire safety engineer"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3052.135,"endTime":3055.965,"body":"is involved from concept"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3052.135,"endTime":3055.965,"body":"design all the way through"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3055.965,"endTime":3058.635,"body":"with completion and handover"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3055.965,"endTime":3058.635,"body":"of a building, interacting and"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3058.635,"endTime":3061.055,"body":"interfacing with all of the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3058.635,"endTime":3061.055,"body":"other, engineering disciplines."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3061.062,"endTime":3062.639,"body":"I think, one thing that's"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3061.062,"endTime":3062.639,"body":"important to recognize with"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3062.639,"endTime":3065.339,"body":"fire safety engineering"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3062.639,"endTime":3065.339,"body":"is that we're in a very,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3065.429,"endTime":3068.009,"body":"peculiar place potentially"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3065.429,"endTime":3068.009,"body":"is the right word for it."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3068.189,"endTime":3070.279,"body":"In comparison with some of the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3068.189,"endTime":3070.279,"body":"other engineering disciplines"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3070.279,"endTime":3074.449,"body":"and that we were able to impose"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3070.279,"endTime":3074.449,"body":"additional requirements on,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3074.449,"endTime":3076.459,"body":"for example, the structural"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3074.449,"endTime":3076.459,"body":"engineer on the facade"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3076.459,"endTime":3079.189,"body":"engineer, on the mechanical"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3076.459,"endTime":3079.189,"body":"engineer, on the HVAC engineer."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3079.509,"endTime":3083.139,"body":"Whereas not all of those other"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3079.509,"endTime":3083.139,"body":"engineering disciplines have"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3083.139,"endTime":3086.259,"body":"quite such a potential to"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3083.139,"endTime":3086.259,"body":"influence all of the other"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3086.259,"endTime":3087.249,"body":"members of the design team."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3087.609,"endTime":3089.799,"body":"So the role of the fire safety"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3087.609,"endTime":3089.799,"body":"engineering, the design team,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3090.309,"endTime":3092.769,"body":"uh, can actually be quite"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3090.309,"endTime":3092.769,"body":"central and bearing in mind"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3092.769,"endTime":3093.729,"body":"that it can be quite central."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3094.089,"endTime":3096.639,"body":"The argument for fire safety"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3094.089,"endTime":3096.639,"body":"engineers to be involved"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3096.999,"endTime":3099.399,"body":"from concept design through"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3096.999,"endTime":3099.399,"body":"to completion is very,"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3099.399,"endTime":3100.629,"body":"very clear and having input"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3100.939,"endTime":3103.595,"body":"in all other aspects of the"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3100.939,"endTime":3103.595,"body":"design is quite clear as well."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3103.625,"endTime":3106.122,"body":"The benefits of them having"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3103.625,"endTime":3106.122,"body":"input at all stages as quickly."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3106.142,"endTime":3106.492,"body":"I think,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3106.992,"endTime":3109.162,"body":"And  as"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3106.992,"endTime":3109.162,"body":"the design evolves, you can"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3109.162,"endTime":3111.952,"body":"come back to this inherent"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3109.162,"endTime":3111.952,"body":"risk and just compare"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3111.952,"endTime":3115.342,"body":"with that and see if you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3111.952,"endTime":3115.342,"body":"worsened or improved things."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3115.649,"endTime":3116.059,"body":"Jaime?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3116.059,"endTime":3118.29,"body":"Want to add something"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3116.059,"endTime":3118.29,"body":"to this interlock?"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3118.429,"endTime":3119.979,"body":"One thing"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3118.429,"endTime":3119.979,"body":"that we didn't touch on"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3119.979,"endTime":3121.839,"body":"is the probabilistic part."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3121.929,"endTime":3127.369,"body":"And, we did get a lot of fire"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3121.929,"endTime":3127.369,"body":"thrown at us because of, being"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3127.369,"endTime":3130.909,"body":"perceived as advocates of"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3127.369,"endTime":3130.909,"body":"only deterministic analysis."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3130.939,"endTime":3132.199,"body":"And that is not the case."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3132.259,"endTime":3136.659,"body":"And actually one of the final"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3132.259,"endTime":3136.659,"body":"case study of the thesis, was"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3137.289,"endTime":3140.859,"body":"more of a property protection,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3137.289,"endTime":3140.859,"body":"kind of a case study."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3140.889,"endTime":3142.779,"body":"And, uh, it was a structural."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3142.779,"endTime":3144.249,"body":"So that was quite"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3142.779,"endTime":3144.249,"body":"a challenge for me."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3144.249,"endTime":3147.879,"body":"And I was really thankful that"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3144.249,"endTime":3147.879,"body":"I have David guiding through it."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3148.229,"endTime":3149.969,"body":"Although it was a very"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3148.229,"endTime":3149.969,"body":"simple case study, but"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3150.479,"endTime":3154.049,"body":"because he was structural,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3150.479,"endTime":3154.049,"body":"we could actually play with"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3154.099,"endTime":3155.569,"body":"stochastic inputs."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3156.019,"endTime":3158.269,"body":"So it was maximum"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3156.019,"endTime":3158.269,"body":"allowable damage."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3158.299,"endTime":3163.549,"body":"We were trying to figure out the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3158.299,"endTime":3163.549,"body":"inherent risk in that design,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3164.149,"endTime":3168.049,"body":"but we were able not to just"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3164.149,"endTime":3168.049,"body":"get one single answer, which"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3168.049,"endTime":3169.939,"body":"in this case was property loss."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3170.209,"endTime":3173.299,"body":"So it was just not one"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3170.209,"endTime":3173.299,"body":"number, but we could actually"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3173.299,"endTime":3175.969,"body":"get a distribution of loss."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3176.149,"endTime":3180.079,"body":"And that distribution came"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3176.149,"endTime":3180.079,"body":"from those stochastic inputs,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3180.109,"endTime":3182.979,"body":"which had to do with the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3180.109,"endTime":3182.979,"body":"mechanical properties of"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3182.979,"endTime":3184.899,"body":"the roof beams and so on."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3185.229,"endTime":3188.919,"body":"So I wanted just to add that,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3185.229,"endTime":3188.919,"body":"just to make clear that all"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3188.919,"endTime":3192.709,"body":"of these is compatible with"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3188.919,"endTime":3192.709,"body":"that stochastic information"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3192.739,"endTime":3197.299,"body":"were available, but we don't"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3192.739,"endTime":3197.299,"body":"go into this realm of coming"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3197.299,"endTime":3200.929,"body":"up with how likely is a"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3197.299,"endTime":3200.929,"body":"fire here instead of here."},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3201.019,"endTime":3203.899,"body":"Because as I said at the"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3201.019,"endTime":3203.899,"body":"beginning, and I guess we go"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3203.899,"endTime":3206.229,"body":"full circle, we don't know."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3206.789,"endTime":3208.399,"body":"It's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3206.789,"endTime":3208.399,"body":"a good, closing point that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3208.499,"endTime":3210.359,"body":"there are still challenges."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3210.639,"endTime":3212.369,"body":"Well now Jaime, David."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3212.399,"endTime":3215.939,"body":"Thank you for introducing us to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3212.399,"endTime":3215.939,"body":"the maximum allowable damage,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3215.969,"endTime":3217.499,"body":"risk assessment methods and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3217.509,"endTime":3219.379,"body":"work we're doingat UQ."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3219.919,"endTime":3223.969,"body":"I'm going definitely to refer,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3219.919,"endTime":3223.969,"body":"the listeners to your PhD"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3223.969,"endTime":3228.019,"body":"thesis, which is very rich"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3223.969,"endTime":3228.019,"body":"in examples and everything."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3228.059,"endTime":3228.359,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3228.389,"endTime":3231.269,"body":"Thank you for coming"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3228.389,"endTime":3231.269,"body":"here and sharing this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3231.269,"endTime":3232.469,"body":"interesting insight."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3232.469,"endTime":3235.582,"body":"And,  we've agreed to that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3232.469,"endTime":3235.582,"body":"before I had the interview"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3235.582,"endTime":3238.892,"body":"with Brian, Brian mentioned"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3235.582,"endTime":3238.892,"body":"that, such a method would"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3238.892,"endTime":3242.102,"body":"be very needed, so I'm"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3238.892,"endTime":3242.102,"body":"more than happy to present"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3242.102,"endTime":3243.542,"body":"it at the podcast well."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3243.722,"endTime":3247.019,"body":"Great minds think like,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3243.722,"endTime":3247.019,"body":"guys, thank you so much"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3247.019,"endTime":3249.689,"body":"for being here and yeah,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3250.154,"endTime":3250.334,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3250.949,"endTime":3251.254,"body":"that's,"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3251.254,"endTime":3252.004,"body":"Thank you Wojciech"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3252.609,"endTime":3254.109,"body":"we'll"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3252.609,"endTime":3254.109,"body":"need to catch up, uh, at"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3254.109,"endTime":3259.279,"body":"some point to see how it went"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3254.109,"endTime":3259.279,"body":"out, if it got traction and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3259.309,"endTime":3260.869,"body":"where did you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3259.309,"endTime":3260.869,"body":"develop it further?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3261.199,"endTime":3263.389,"body":"Because I don't think that's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3261.199,"endTime":3263.389,"body":"the, that's the end of it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3264.019,"endTime":3267.362,"body":"I hope it's a beginning"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3264.019,"endTime":3267.362,"body":"of a whole new chapter in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3267.432,"endTime":3268.302,"body":"fire safety engineering."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3268.352,"endTime":3268.592,"body":"Thanks"},{"speaker":"Jaime Cadena","startTime":3268.717,"endTime":3268.977,"body":"hope"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3269.002,"endTime":3269.482,"body":"Hopefully."},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3270.202,"endTime":3270.382,"body":"Thanks"},{"speaker":"David Lange","startTime":3270.382,"endTime":3270.742,"body":"Wojciech"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3271.016,"endTime":3271.706,"body":"And that's it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3271.886,"endTime":3273.116,"body":"I hope you liked it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3273.686,"endTime":3276.386,"body":"As I've mentioned in the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3273.686,"endTime":3276.386,"body":"brief introduction to the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3276.386,"endTime":3279.756,"body":"talk, to change the scientific"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3276.386,"endTime":3279.756,"body":"discipline, you have to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3279.846,"endTime":3281.826,"body":"enter it from outside of it."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3281.856,"endTime":3284.286,"body":"It's not possible to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3281.856,"endTime":3284.286,"body":"change the scientific"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3284.286,"endTime":3285.366,"body":"discipline from inside."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3285.846,"endTime":3287.646,"body":"And that's what Jaime"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3285.846,"endTime":3287.646,"body":"is trying to do."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3287.646,"endTime":3291.696,"body":"He's been a process engineer,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3287.646,"endTime":3291.696,"body":"chemical engineer learned his"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3291.696,"endTime":3295.266,"body":"craft in that discipline and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3291.696,"endTime":3295.266,"body":"then jumped into the fire."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3295.961,"endTime":3298.241,"body":"See how this knowledge"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3295.961,"endTime":3298.241,"body":"can be applied."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3298.241,"endTime":3302.711,"body":"And as you see, it leads to some"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3298.241,"endTime":3302.711,"body":"very, very interesting concepts."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3303.311,"endTime":3306.371,"body":"In fire safety engineering we"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3303.311,"endTime":3306.371,"body":"so often focus on the trash"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3306.371,"endTime":3310.601,"body":"hold values, the goals, you"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3306.371,"endTime":3310.601,"body":"know, the numbers written in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3310.601,"endTime":3314.801,"body":"our codes towards which we"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3310.601,"endTime":3314.801,"body":"pursue, and we push the craft"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3314.798,"endTime":3317.454,"body":"while sometimes we forget"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3314.798,"endTime":3317.454,"body":"what the craft is about."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3317.584,"endTime":3319.934,"body":"We sometimes don't"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3317.584,"endTime":3319.934,"body":"think about the changes"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3319.934,"endTime":3320.864,"body":"we do to the building."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3321.564,"endTime":3325.147,"body":"Go with them blindly just to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3321.564,"endTime":3325.147,"body":"meet another deadline, another"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3325.147,"endTime":3327.037,"body":"threshold, another goal."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3327.227,"endTime":3331.067,"body":"To seek this methodology that"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3327.227,"endTime":3331.067,"body":"is absolutely focused on the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3331.067,"endTime":3335.201,"body":"process itself, learning the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3331.067,"endTime":3335.201,"body":"building, discovering, going"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3335.201,"endTime":3339.371,"body":"through iterations to find"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3335.201,"endTime":3339.371,"body":"the optimal safety in the."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3340.096,"endTime":3341.706,"body":"That's truly fascinating."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3341.706,"endTime":3344.782,"body":"And I think it could lead"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3341.706,"endTime":3344.782,"body":"to a very, very safe design."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3345.082,"endTime":3348.472,"body":"Obviously there's challenges and"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3345.082,"endTime":3348.472,"body":"I'm more than a word of that."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3349.462,"endTime":3351.052,"body":"It's going to be time-consuming."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3351.082,"endTime":3353.392,"body":"It's not going to be"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3351.082,"endTime":3353.392,"body":"applicable to every building."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3354.071,"endTime":3358.151,"body":"I think it also leads to"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3354.071,"endTime":3358.151,"body":"creation of a catalog of"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3358.151,"endTime":3363.041,"body":"standardized buildings with this"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3358.151,"endTime":3363.041,"body":"very well done risk analysis."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3363.071,"endTime":3366.611,"body":"That could be a starting"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3363.071,"endTime":3366.611,"body":"point for further analysis."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3367.121,"endTime":3369.601,"body":"If that will be the case,"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3367.121,"endTime":3369.601,"body":"the thing would not be as"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3369.601,"endTime":3372.547,"body":"time-consuming and would lead"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3369.601,"endTime":3372.547,"body":"to very high quality risk"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3372.547,"endTime":3373.807,"body":"analysis for the buildings."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3373.837,"endTime":3375.127,"body":"So maybe we should try."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3375.667,"endTime":3378.517,"body":"That's I think that's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3375.667,"endTime":3378.517,"body":"a, quite a good concept."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3378.517,"endTime":3382.087,"body":"And maybe if I find a keen"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3378.517,"endTime":3382.087,"body":"student, I'll push them"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3382.207,"endTime":3383.827,"body":"towards such an analysis."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3384.097,"endTime":3386.557,"body":"Let me know what you think in"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3384.097,"endTime":3386.557,"body":"the comments or on Twitter."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3387.027,"endTime":3389.227,"body":"I'm very keen to hear."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3389.257,"endTime":3392.407,"body":"What are your opinions"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3389.257,"endTime":3392.407,"body":"about where could we go with"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3392.437,"endTime":3395.467,"body":"risk analysis and fire, or"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3392.437,"endTime":3395.467,"body":"maybe where should it go?"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3396.277,"endTime":3399.007,"body":"So that's it for today."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3399.457,"endTime":3401.467,"body":"I hope you've"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3399.457,"endTime":3401.467,"body":"enjoyed this episode."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3402.097,"endTime":3404.737,"body":"And as usual, I'll be"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3402.097,"endTime":3404.737,"body":"waiting for you with the"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3404.737,"endTime":3406.627,"body":"next one on next Wednesday."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3407.047,"endTime":3408.817,"body":"And again, I have a great guest."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3408.917,"endTime":3412.817,"body":"it's going to be U Q University"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3408.917,"endTime":3412.817,"body":"of Queensland again, so, but I'm"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3412.817,"endTime":3415.437,"body":"not going to tell you who that's"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3412.817,"endTime":3415.437,"body":"that's that's the mystery."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3415.767,"endTime":3418.787,"body":"I'm sure you're going"},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3415.767,"endTime":3418.787,"body":"to love it and, yeah."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3419.057,"endTime":3420.257,"body":"See you next Wednesday."},{"speaker":"Wojciech Wegrzynski","startTime":3420.557,"endTime":3420.977,"body":"Bye."}]}