The Black Range Pub
The Black Range Pub
Ron Fransccell - Interview #2 - May 3, 2026
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The Black Range Pub interveiws award-winning author Ron Franscell on the upcoming release of his new mystery DEEP END.
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to a special May 2026 audio edition of the Black Range Pub. I'm your host, Robert Cadera. Now, some of you may recall back a couple of years ago when we interviewed author Ron Francell on the release of his first mystery novel, Deaf Row. Well, that novel featured a retired Denver homicide detective, Woodrow Mountain Bell, who solves a decades-long cold case murder with the help and advice of an over-the-hill gang of elderly local men who gather every morning for coffee and mutual affirmation. Now, building on Def Row's success, Ron Francel is back with a new mystery featuring the Def Row cast of characters, and it's called Deep End. It's launching Tuesday, May 5th. Before I introduce its author, let me give you the skinny on this fascinating new tale. Peace, love, and murder. It's the age of Aquarius gone wrong. When a cannabis billionaire is murdered, retired cop Woodrow Bell gets drawn back into a world he thought he'd left behind. The trail leads to Deep End, a half-ruined mountain hamlet where aging hippies, faded dreams, and buried secrets linger like smoke. Fifty years earlier, a commune called Jericho had imploded in blood and betrayal, and now its echoes have resurfaced. A vanishing young man, a missing manuscript, and a money trail that stretches from tumbled-down cabins to corporate boardrooms. Woodrow Bell isn't chasing ghosts, he's following absences, people who should have been there but weren't. And what he finds is a knot of identity and memory, old radicals hiding under new names, and families who never buried their dead. It's a page-turning thriller and a meditation on what happens when the past refuses to stay buried. Murder, memory, and the ruins of cool collide in a story about names, graves, and the debts of generations. Now, as one who's had a chance to read Deep End before its launch, I can tell you this is a book you won't want to miss. And the Black Range Pub is privileged to have author Ron Francell back again, and he's going to tell you more about it. So let's get into it. Ron, welcome back to the Black Range Pub.
SPEAKER_01It's my pleasure to be here. Believe me, this is a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun the last time we did it.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it was. I want to first of all congratulate you on uh on Deep End, your new book. I found it really a worthy successor to Def Rowe, and that's high praise because I love that first book. Uh, what can you tell us about the latest mystery from uh, or for I should say, Mountain Bell and his friends?
SPEAKER_01Uh well, it's different, as you know from reading the book. It is a different uh a different crime. In in Deep End, we we bring back the old codgers that we met in Death Row. Uh every small town diner has a bunch of old guys who gather on most mornings to fix what's wrong with the world and to tell their tales and poke fun at each other, and they're back. Um in this case, um it's all it's all set off by the assassination of a billionaire cannabis mogul uh in Colorado. And um in the in the the the chaos of the of a of a beginning investigation, the Colorado Bureau of Investigation asks our old friend Woodrow Bell to uh step in and help them do a little backgrounding in the mountains. And what he stumbles on is a connection to an old um murder at a hippie commune in 1970 uh that that seems to be related. Uh he's not sure the Colorado Bureau of Investigation doesn't really want to have anything to do with a 60-year-old murder. So he and and his old codger buddies uh are released to kind of roam around and figure out what that connection might be and and and uh whether it plays a role.
SPEAKER_00Well, I gotta say I gotta say they did a good job of helping him once again. Well, you know, and then that's the thing.
SPEAKER_01Uh I mean it both Death Row and Deep In, they're they're their stories, they're not just crime stories. They're about men growing old too. I um I think these are old guys, all of them in their 70s or 80s, uh, who feel like their their usefulness has long ago ended, and that now they're just waiting around to die and and slowly growing invisible to the rest of the world. Uh these these two cases that we talk about in these books certainly offer an opportunity for them to use their old skills and their old uh uh training, uh sometimes unwittingly, to to help uh Woodrow Bell solve this crime. So uh I think that's that's the undercurrent of of both books is that uh maybe we don't pay attention enough to our our older members in society. We we kind of figure they've they've had their time, they've their their skills and their usefulness have run their course.
SPEAKER_00Well, as a guy who remembers the 60s, I'm glad to hear you say that. If you remember, you weren't there. I was I was there and yeah, there's a lot I don't remember. But you know, most authors um when they when they talk about a book, it's you know protagonist versus the antagonist when you when you plot it out and so on. But what I appreciate about your two books um is you appreciate a good ensemble. And uh I find that books that have uh a cast, a true cast of characters, like you have in both of these books, those those characters add so much to the narrative's dynamic. So it's not just one guy, one good guy against one bad guy, but it's really uh one good guy and other good people, you know? And uh I wanted I I it was so good to hear um Father Burt's benedictions again. And and uh yeah, I got to wondering, do you uh do these guys haunt your dreams?
SPEAKER_01You know, um not in the sense that I might be a little crazy, no. Um but but you know, uh what's interesting to me is uh uh you know, I've been asked, and maybe you even asked it last time we talked about do these characters talk to you, uh in the sense that that that's kind of schizophrenic, no. But I do surprise myself when I'm uh sort of reacting and thinking on their behalf. In other words, when I'm writing today from the perspective of Father Burt or from the perspective of Woodrow Bell, who are in many ways, even though they're very, very close friends, they're two ends of the spectrum. I'm I'm surprised how I think on their behalf. So they're they're not communicating with me as much as me uh stepping into their characters and trying to come in. You know, it's very difficult. I'm not a particularly religious guy. Um I like to think that I uh have a faith uh in something bigger. Um when I'm reacting or acting on on Father Gert's behalf, I feel very uh ecclesiastic.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, there's there is I settle into a priestly kind of uh personality. Well, any of us who have been to church know what you're talking about, but I I uh I I really uh uh admire that. And there is, I found it particularly even more in uh in deep end, a kind of a uh a spiritual dimension to the story, uh, because you're not just dealing with uh a couple of deaths 50, 60 years ago, but there are life and death stakes for the main characters in the present present day of your story as well. Um one one really interesting uh new character I found on speaking for myself was uh Coach Clarence Beers. I I think I think that guy's got potential. All right. How many of us can remember in high school um the the ever-present uh football or basketball coach who also taught social studies?
SPEAKER_01Exactly. My wife is a retired uh high school English teacher and and with great friends, and we are great friends with just those kinds of people. Yeah. And we came to New Mexico from Texas, and in Texas, I'm not sure about New Mexico, but in Texas, if you're going to coach, you have to also teach. Absolutely. Yes. To the to the extent that the athletic director doesn't care. Uh these these guys get slotted into mostly history. Mostly history. Mostly history, mostly social studies. Um, and they usually aren't maybe at the top of their game when they're doing it. Yeah. And and and and so, like all of the characters in in Death Row and Deep End, um I'm drawing on people I actually know. Oh, sure. And I know a few of those guys. You know a few.
SPEAKER_00I certainly do. In fact, I taught social studies. So I know it from a lot of different angles. But yeah, anybody who can straight faced explain how Julius Caesar invented the hot dog can sit at my table any day.
SPEAKER_01Well, exactly. And that well, that it that that that sort of misinformation ultimately plays a role in the story is is kind of uh is kind of the fun part. Yes. Um kind of uh kind of a trope we see in some storytelling where sort of the crazy guy turns out to be right. Yep. Uh yeah. So and and of course that's not the only thing. Everything that it's it's one little clue that gets added in. But um it's uh it's and that's part of what you were talking about, the ensemble.
SPEAKER_00I I read these guys work together. They are a team in the truest sense of the word, you know. Uh it's I read uh a little burb about you, and it said that uh something to the effect that the cast of characters in your two def row books are quote, crying out for a movie, unquote. Can you see that happening?
SPEAKER_01Well, in fact, um one of my earlier books, not one of these two, but one of my earlier books is actually in the pipeline in Hollywood. Uh script has been written.
SPEAKER_00Congratulations.
SPEAKER_01Actors are being sought. Thank you. Um studios are reading. Um, and and it's gotten farther than any of my books in the Hollywood pipeline.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Uh just just less than a week ago, I was talking to the producer who uh who auctioned that particular property and said, I and apologize, I'm I'm busy getting ready for the release of Deep End, which he happens to know about.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01And um, and I said, I know we're we're just hoping you know, somebody, one person buys the book. Uh and she goes, Oh no, it's a great story. In fact, we're already thinking that's our next project. Yeah, yeah. So and and in this particular case, they're thinking a streaming type series. So uh I think it'd be great. I think it would be a terrific employment opportunity for all the guys in Hollywood. Well, I'm gonna say, can it can we have their cell bikers?
SPEAKER_00We can exhume uh Walter Brannon and Chill Wills. That would be perfect, perfect. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01I mean, you know, I think that uh I can see uh Jeff Bridges or you know, uh in in uh in the mountain bell role. I could see a whole bunch, I could see a whole bunch of guys that probably would love to come out of retirement and and do something simple like this. Uh where they other than Bell and to a degree Father Bird, uh they're not gonna have to carry the whole show, right?
SPEAKER_00So let's let's talk a little bit about Mountain Bell. All right. Uh I felt like I got to know him uh when I read Def Row, but it's really here in Deep End, I think, where he came even more alive for me. And it struck me in a few scenes that where Bell was having uh coffee with the rest of the group, but also elsewhere in the book, uh, like he was uh let me say he was in the group, but not quite of it. Uh yet he's he needed their you know their fraternity, their influence, whatever, to help him deal with his own demons and uh and his challenges. Did I hear that right?
SPEAKER_01No, I think you're right. Uh I I he's also distracted in deep end, in you know, one of the major subplots, and that is his his girlfriend's cancer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um so he he's he's a little distracted. I think by nature, he's the kind of guy who keeps to the periphery of everything. Um even though he's a blustering kind of um well, not blustering, but but a gruff, yeah, uh tough old guy, he's he's he's a part, but you're right. And I think that's part of his character, but why does he keep coming back? Right, right. I mean, why does why does he show up every morning with these old guys? I think it's because he uh he wants to be a part, he will he wants to have um that relationship uh with these guys. And this isn't uh the kind of group that um that he wants to be part of. So I I guess and not you know, beyond the help they give him, again, sometimes wittingly and sometimes unwittingly. Uh I think it's just a group that he wants to be a part of in his golden region.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he's a lonely guy cut off from his daughter and uh from his previous wife. I I kind of picture him as I read those scenes of him sitting at the table with the guys, but kind of gazing through the window off into the distance at the same time, that uh that he was there and a part of him was somewhere else. I think you're right.
SPEAKER_01I and I I envision him the same way. When in the respect to that, uh you would think the major protagonist of a story would dominate every page that that that he's in a scene. Bell doesn't do that.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Uh he he sits at the table, the conversation is going on among these guys, and he's he's an observer more than more than uh a driver of the conversation. And uh so I I I think that's part of his personality. Um I think he's an observer at his core, obviously.
SPEAKER_00And he's rest he's a restless guy, too.
SPEAKER_01He is, he is, and and you know, he doesn't like being involved in in both death row and deep end. He doesn't want to be part of this. He he you know, he he really wants to retire in this little town and let the world pass him by. He just doesn't want to be part of it. Um he'll go to coffee in the mornings with these guys, but other than that, he he just he wants to leave everything behind. But he of course he gets dragged in partly because um he he's got a uh a sense of right and wrong and and a sense that he needs to be part of doing the right.
SPEAKER_02That's right.
SPEAKER_01So well, uh yeah, I I I love him, I love Father Bert. Uh we've talked about Father Bert before, and and um all these guys, uh, and again, even though we don't have conversations, I appreciate each one of them for their uh their special skills and their special characteristics.
SPEAKER_00Right. And you you've done a fine job, also, I think, um, at because I know as a writer how difficult this is when you have a large number of characters and you want to convey their individuality and make them come alive, and yet they're hardly even issuing full sentences, they're all chipping in with a phrase here or a word there.
SPEAKER_01Right, exactly. Well, and and you know what? You and I are maybe men of a certain age who understand that you know we get together, we don't throw our arms around each other and say, hey, I love you, man. We're more likely to uh tease and to you know jovially insult each other. And that's kind of the way we show our affection to each other. Exactly, exactly. That yes, that kind of uh teasing. And um that's that was something that I really wanted to be a part of the interaction around the coffee table in the morning or when they meet on the street or or whatever, that they tease each other. Um I I think we've done that. You know what's funny? I was just at our little coffee shop here in Placidas, New Mexico, on Friday morning. And while I'm sitting there talking with my wife, a table is gathered, and it's all men of a certain age. And they're they're you know interacting almost exactly the way I imagine the the the old codgers of death row interact. So um I think they're everywhere. I don't think that's special here.
SPEAKER_00I think that's why so many people identify and connect with them too. I think so of our at least of our generation. Yeah. Let me shift gears here for just a second. You mentioned Placidus. Uh deep end may be uh set in the wilds of the Colorado Mountains and the hamlet of of Midnight and all of its surroundings. But uh I understand that there is a historical route to this story, and it comes from a place uh, let's say nearer and dearer to you. Can you elaborate on that? Well, you know, uh yes, you're right.
SPEAKER_01Um let me back up a little bit. You're talking to a guy who's made his bones as a true crime writer and as a journalist, telling true stories. Um along comes COVID, and suddenly I can't I can't be as exuberant about my research as I I have been. Um and so I sit down and I decide I'm gonna write a mystery using using things that I picked up, the knowledge of of procedures and courts and crimes and criminals and so on. Uh that's what created Def Row. And Death Row itself had was with the crime in it, uh, was uh germinated from uh a real crime. So it is with Deep End. Um I am fascinated by a crime. It happened right here in the little village where I live in northern New Mexico. Um back in the late 60s, early 70s. This was one of the epicenters of the back to the earth movement, right? The hippie communes. Um and and at any given time there were eight to ten communes during that short period um right here in this little uh you know old Spanish land grant village. Um in 1970, there was a leader of one of the communes who called himself Ulysses S. Grant. Um he claimed he was the reincarnation of the dead president. Um he ran for governor as a Republican, by the way. Um he uh that that was a stillborn idea because he didn't believe in riding in cars. So he could only go as far as his horse would take him for campaigning, and that that fell apart. Um he he's well known in the little post office here or stories about him because he would uh you know uh intermittently throw a fit because he thought he should get free postage being a dead president. Um in 1970, he had a beef with a couple of his followers, and that beef overflowed. Uh he borrowed a gun from a local farmer or rancher on the other uh on the other side of the woodland where he lived, and he tracked down these two guys and he shot them. Problem is that one of them wasn't the right guy. One one was just a guy in the wrong place at the wrong time.
SPEAKER_00Was he ever brought to justice? Did they did they get him?
SPEAKER_01He uh immediately after the murders, he flees, and he's never brought to justice. He the FBI gets involved because of the interstate flight for other reasons. Um but but he is never brought to justice. Now, now again, let me remind the listeners, this is the true story. This is not the story of Made up. Um and uh about 20 years later, he's uh he's discovered to uh have been assassinated himself, probably by rival drug traffickers. But that's that uh is kind of a part of the story, isn't it? But but in the real story, that that murder on a hippie commune, the last place I would have expected murder to happen, um just captured my interest. And so uh over the years I've researched it. I I I thought I might be able to write a book, but the problem is that the um modern publishing, particularly in true crime, they're they're not interested in historic stories like that. So so this is interesting. You're running the headline.
SPEAKER_00You actually, as a former uh uh journalist and as a true crime writer, you were investigating this as a true crime story, and it ended up being um a fictional mystery.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I ended up sort of lightly fictionalizing it and using it in deep deep end. I've uh one of the characters is Ulysses S. Grand. Yeah, one of the characters is the poor guy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, his real name. The details of the crime, uh some some of the background details of people like Ulysses S Grand are used, you know, straight from the case file. It sort of helps you with plot structure, then well, I I don't have to make too much up, right? Right, right. Um this I can say, well, that might sound um incredible to you, but it really happened. And um so uh I with both Defrow and Deep End, I was able to kind of draw on my my nonfiction writing, my journalism, um and my fascination with with true stories and tell a fictional story because it lets me talk about some other things too.
SPEAKER_00It lets you put your your prior experience to work too. Yeah, yeah. Well, sure.
SPEAKER_01I I mean writing it was it felt like walking a tightrope. You know, on one side, I've got these these real cases that I've covered, uh, murders and betrayals and things that just stuck with me. And on the other side, I gave myself permission to imagine a little bit more, of course. To fill in the gaps and and explore the moments that that nobody ever really sees. Um and uh that tension between the truth and invention um never really goes away. Um so I I I really I really loved doing this story, as you know. It's it's a little bit more than a crime story. Yes, there's a little bit more going on there. Um obviously the the the the nature of how we treat our older citizens is part of it. The relationship between Bell and his girlfriend, but also um you know, kind of higher flown things that that about um uh respect for the dead.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, that comes through very strongly. Uh it it drives Bell uh to do what he does toward the end of the book, yeah. Yes, absolutely. Let let's uh let's summarize now. Deep end is coming out when? Is it tomorrow, uh, May 5th?
SPEAKER_01May 5th, Tuesday, May 5th.
SPEAKER_00Okay, available wherever you buy your books, as they say.
SPEAKER_01Where in in every form, print, ebook, audio. It'll be um it'll be out there in every form.
SPEAKER_00Now, are you gonna be appearing at any uh book signings or readings where your readers might be able to get up close and personal, maybe get a signed copy?
SPEAKER_01Uh well, yes, I will. Uh right now, the one that I'm I'm really excited about is uh June 27th. So it's it's uh the better part of two months away, but uh on June 27th at 2 o'clock, um Ann Hillerman, the great, yes, probably New Mexico's greatest living author right now, um, and I will sit down and talk about deep end at the Placidus Library. Uh so two o'clock, June 27th, Ann Hillerman and I talking about Deep End uh at the Placidus Library, uh, which should be fun. Nice fireside chat.
SPEAKER_00Anne is the best friend that New Mexico libraries have, I think. She's just been so wonderful.
SPEAKER_01New Mexico libraries, yeah, New Mexico writers, uh, New Mexico storytelling. I mean, uh, and frankly, there's no nicer person that I've ever met. Certainly. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Um and and so I I that's the the one event that I think will be just a lot of fun. And because the in the inspiring crime um of that double murder on the hippie commune is you know, was a placebo story. Um that event, I'm sure we'll talk about it, and I'm sure we'll have a lot of curious uh people who've never heard of it.
SPEAKER_00And there may be some in the audience that remember that some of the people sitting there.
SPEAKER_01There might be, yeah. I've talked to a couple of the the hippies who never left, and you know, of course, now they're in their 80s. Yeah, they could be on Jeff Row. Um, but uh they they have this vague recollection of it. Um it's it it's been really fascinating living in this place and having this very atmospheric kind of odd crime that happened and and looking into it and and and probing memory. And that's that's always a challenge for us.
SPEAKER_00Well, Ron, uh I I had such a blast reading this book, and I uh I cannot recommend it highly enough. I wish you a lot of success. I thought that I might close the show uh with a few words that Father Bert gave to me. God, thank you for eyes that see the best in people, a heart that forgives the worst, a mind that forgets the bad, and a soul that can handle one more miracle before lunch through Christ our Lord. Amen. Amen. Uh Ron, thank you so much for stopping by the Black Range Pub. I've been speaking with Ron Francell. We're talking about his new book, Deep End, which comes out tomorrow, May 6th. And uh don't forget that he'll be at the Placidus Library. What's the date on that again? June. June 27th. June 27th. And uh I'll try to be there myself. Thanks so much, Ron. We'll talk to you again soon.
SPEAKER_01Robert, thank you so much, and for everything you do for uh Southwestern storytelling. Thank you. You do a lot.
SPEAKER_00It is my pleasure. Thanks very much. That's it for today's program. As always, thank you for stopping by the Black Range Pub. I'm your host, Robert Cadera. We'll be back real soon with another show celebrating the arts, people, and the history of the great American Southwest. Hope to see you then, adios.