Is Coconut Oil A Villain Or Just Misunderstood? Spoiler: It’s Complicated

Curious why coconut oil can raise LDL for some people yet still show up in diets that improve metabolic health, cognition, and body composition? We get clear on what coconut oil actually is—a family of saturated fats with a rare abundance of medium-chain triglycerides—and why MCTs create ketones that the brain and mitochondria can use even without fasting. Instead of stopping at cholesterol, we look at the fuller picture: insulin resistance, inflammation, triglycerides, and real-world outcomes that drive risk more than a single lab value.

We dig into the differences between MCT oil, extra-virgin coconut oil, and refined coconut oil, and when each makes sense. We compare biomarkers to hard endpoints, explain why some populations with high coconut intake have low cardiovascular disease, and explore how diet context flips the script: in a high-sugar diet, lipids can look worse; in a lower-carb, whole-food pattern, markers of metabolic syndrome often improve even if LDL nudges up. Along the way, we share insights on cooking stability, oxidative stress, and the intriguing idea that latitude and season may influence how fats signal thermogenesis and photoprotection.

You’ll leave with practical takeaways you can use today: how to choose between MCTs and whole coconut oil, how to integrate them into a low-sugar, nutrient-dense diet, and which labs to track beyond LDL, like ApoB, triglyceride-to-HDL ratio, hs-CRP, and fasting insulin. If you’ve wondered whether coconut oil is a villain or a misunderstood ally, this conversation offers a grounded, outcome-focused way to decide what fits your body and your climate.

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Transcript

Autumn Banter & Topic Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Health Edge, translating the science of self-care. I am Mark Pettis with my friend colleague John Bagnulo. Good morning, John.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Hey, good morning, Mark. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00 0:11

I'm doing great. It's uh nice to see you as always.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

We're you too.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Getting uh well into the uh October season and uh uh uh all the all the uh leaves are hitting the ground here in New England. And uh we you know the everyone, of course, in New England loves to talk about foliage and peak and when is it gonna peak? And yeah, it's it's kind of like talking about the weather. Yeah. And uh we we've you see these pockets of beautiful color, uh, but I I think that just the drought that we've had here regionally over the full season probably has affected uh what what the trees uh can produce this year, but it's it's still beautiful and those last remnants, you know. It it it's uh when you live at the latitude we live at, you you you tend to kind of wistfully hold on to those last remnants of uh a sun that's a little bit still a little bit higher in the sky, but dropping by the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Yeah, it's pretty dark here in the morning still.

Why Coconut Oil Stirs Debate

SPEAKER_00 1:18

So definitely. Well, we have a an interesting topic, certainly uh one that is um widely discussed. Uh anyone who's into nutrition, nutritional science, functional lifestyle medicine um you know, will will touch on this topic of coconut oil. And a lot is said uh that could uh surely uh create a more positive narrative for the health benefits of uh coconut oil, uh certainly a uh persisting and resounding school of thought uh that um you know, as a predominant saturated fat source uh uh and and what we know of the connections uh with respect to total cholesterol and LDL, that it should be avoided at all costs. And uh hopefully, John, we can bring in a bit more of a neutral um perspective on on where the science is at, where some of the epidemiology is at. And uh I'm gonna have a um a comparison that I'll drop in a little bit later with respect to this really important concept that that that you bring up often, John, of the difference between a real outcome like more heart attacks or less heart attacks, higher mortality or lower mortality, uh more kidney failure or less kidney failure, as opposed to outcomes that are intermediary outcomes, like your cholesterol goes up or it goes down, and and extrapolating heart outcomes from that, which as we always reflect on, is much more nuanced and um tricky when it comes to a personalized approach where that proposition for one might look a little bit different for another. So that just to kind of set the context, John.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Yeah, no, I think that's great, Mark. I think that this the discussion we're gonna have here on coconut oil and you know, to a broader, broader discussion, maybe saturated fat, I think that's really, you know, I think it's a it's a great example of, you know, are we really uh putting all our chips in, so to speak, on a biomarker? Or are we gonna, you know, try to sort through some of that and look at epidemiological studies, look at rates of consumption of a particular food or macronutrient in populations, look at how that maybe influences disease rates. And I what I like to say, and you and I always do this, you know, on most occasions, you take a macro look and then you go micro, right? So you look at macro and look at how is a population maybe being affected by a particular consumption pattern, then you look at maybe the studies that you can, some of those are just associations, but then the micro is like, okay, what's the mechanism that would explain uh a particular food or a nutrient causing X, Y, or Z when it's overconsumed or it's missing, it's you know, you have a deficiency in it. I think, you know, it it's an interesting conversation here about coconut oil, not only because you have the uh the persistent, you know, I guess we could call it almost dogma, right? This that if it's high in saturated fat or if a food raises cholesterol levels, then you know it's um it should be contraindicated with respect to cardiovascular health. And so I think that there's you know, there's some of that dogma from the 1950s or, you know, kind of the Ansel Keys days, right? And a lot of it's been written about that, but now it's like I feel like the it's almost like the the public consensus on coconut oil did swing away from that, and it was almost vindicated for a few years, and now I feel like it's it's starting to come back a little bit more towards like the caution area around coconut oil and the diet. And and some of this is is based again on maybe some newer, more appreciated biomarkers, but again, they're still biomarkers. And I think that's you know, to your point here, that's that's the difference. Is that what do we have for true outcomes that are affected by coconut oil? And we can do this with any food or any type of macronutrient. Are there outcomes that are changed, or are we just again going back to those things that are in circulation that we know tend to show up at a at the accident, right? Like cholesterol. Um, but we might be, in essence, we might be blaming the ambulance as opposed to the true cause of the accident.

What’s Actually In Coconut Oil

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Yeah, that's that's great, John. And I think a good place to start this discussion is to uh consider the fact that coconut oil is a family of fats, right? We often there's a there'll be a tendency to talk about a particular food as a homogenous uh entity. Yeah. Right. So so nature produces these families of molecules. They all fall into maybe a saturated fat category. But I think it's fair to say we we have a lot of research to suggest that not all saturated fats are indeed created equal. Uh so that that alone takes one out of this sweeping condemnation, right? Of all saturated fats are bad because they raise cholesterol when you begin to look at the nuances of the families of fats and consider the fact that that some may behave a bit differently, uh, not just within a broad population, uh, but within an individual, uh you may see differences. And and so um how would you help someone new to this discussion, John, understand what is in coconut oil? What you know, what is this family, and and how might that be different than other sources of um common sources of saturated fats that people hear about all the time, like butter and eggs and and whole fat dairy?

Medium Chains, Ketones, And Brain Fuel

Latitude, Seasonality, And Fat Compatibility

Populations That Thrive On Coconut

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Yeah, sure. So, you know, coconut oil is very unique. Uh the coconut, I should even just start with the you know, the the plant that you know it's actually um mostly saturated fat, but it's unique in the fact that it has a you know a very high percentage of medium chain fatty acids. Okay, so those are you know eight and ten carbons long. And I don't want to you know have this get too technical, but you know, fats can be 26, 28, they can be you know really, really long chains of carbons. The short chain fatty acids that we often talk about with respect to the microbiome and getting the gut bacteria to produce more and butyrate, for instance, those short chain fatty acids, those are basically two, three, or four carbons long. Those are really unique. Most of those we make uh endogenously from having the right gut bacteria, having the right things for them to feed on, different things like starch, resistant starch and fiber, certain fiber types. And then once you leave the short chain fatty acids and you get into the six, eight, ten carbons long, you know, now you're into what we call medium chain triglycerides and or medium chain fatty acids, which when they're assembled that they become a triglyceride. But medium chain or medium chain length of fatty acids, you know, those are very unique uh in nature. We we don't really find those in significant quantities in foods. Now, breast milk, you know, will provide a significant percentage of those, and other types of milks will. For instance, you'll find you know very modest amounts of cow's milk, you'll find significant amounts in things like goat's milk. But really, coconut, uh the fat found in coconut, which is by and large of the saturated family, that it's all mostly saturated fat, has you know, anywhere from 65 to 68 percent uh medium chain length fatty acids. So, you know, that caprylic and and and cap and capric uh caproic acid, those caprylic and caproic acid, you know, being again eight and ten carbons long, those are unique because they form ketones, even if someone's not in a fasting state. When they hit the liver, the liver you know converts those um to ketones even in without there being unique situations, like someone being on a ketogenic diet or someone fasting. So they provide the brain, they provide the body with ketones, small amounts, even when they're just being added on top of an otherwise balanced diet. It's it's really unique. The other saturated fats that are in coconut oil are longer length fatty acids. Um, you know, you got steric acid. Um, you don't really have as much palmitic acid as you would in an animal saturated fat. You know, if you look at the, for instance, the saturated fat that would be in something like beef or in lard or in butter, you know, they're gonna have a little more palmitic acid. We don't really see significant levels of palmitic acid in in coconut oil, but you do still have more of the lauri acid, okay, which is uh, you know, 12 carbons long. You're gonna have uh saturated maristic fatty acid, 14 carbons long. So you're gonna have more of those. And I think that is where if there is still some controversy, is not the right word for it. There's still some discussion about whether or not coconut oil fits into an individual's diet that's trying to reduce the risk for heart disease. I think it really comes down to those kind of longer chain fatty acids in coconut oil that are 12, 14, and to a lesser extent the 18 uh carbon long steric acid. Those are where there are some, you know, there are some people out there, researchers, that feel very strongly against coconut oil because they feel those longer chain fatty acids tend to stimulate the liver to produce more LDL molecules, and APOB uh levels tend to rise when when people consume more coconut oil. So those biomarkers go in what researchers see as the wrong direction when they eat those types of saturated fats. Um but again, I that those are biomarkers. Um we don't really have the the evidence with respect to increased incidence of heart disease, increased uh risk of a myocardial infarction or an actual blockage of a coronary artery. We don't have those outcomes changing, increased risk. We don't see that um with saturated fat. We just see the biomarkers changing. And some would say, well, we don't have enough enough of that kind of you know outcome-based research yet. But you know, I think you could argue against that. So to your point, Mark, coconut oil is a it's a a mix of many different types of saturated fatty acids, from the very unique and rare medium chain length fatty acids to the longer ones that we typically see in nuts and seeds, and we might see in some dairy foods. But um, it is a mix. It is a mix. But the the good thing about coconut oil, and this would go, this would kind of spill over into our conversations about mitochondrial health, is that you could say great things about what those saturated fats do for the health of our mitochondria. Um, you know, very stable fats, right? So they don't they don't oxidize easily, um, they don't generate free radicals, they do not promote inflammation because of their you know role in you know the arachidonic acid cascade, like so many other you know, oils do, cooking oils do. So I like to describe coconut oil as being you know really biologically compatible with our physiology and who we are. Um, you know, but again, it's a it's a tropical oil. And I this would be a second part of this conversation we could do on another date. Um, you know, there's an argument for eating tropical oils if you live in a more tropical environment. And I there's some I think there's really some validity to that. And this complicates things for those of us that live you know northern latitudes where it's 20 below at times in the winter. And you know, the theory here is we know that plants, and especially fats, fats have a lot of communication with our the nucleus of our cells. Fatty acids dock on the surface of the nucleus and really govern things like you know, thermogenesis and you know, so much of our metabolic activity is influenced by the types of fats we eat. So that would that would be the part of this conversation that would give me pause about eating coconut oil. It would be are we eating, are we eating a fat that really sets us up for success, um, you know, based on where we live? But again, this is this is like graduate level stuff, um, and we don't have a lot of data on this, but we do have some interesting hypotheses around tropical oils being consumed in a tropical environment, it seems like it's a win-win protection against um you know area, you know, parts of the sun uh of sun exposure makes our skin more resistant to a burn, it makes our our the cells in our skin uh more resistant to some of the mutative damages of that intense sunlight. But then if you look at what saturated fats, especially the types of saturated fats that would be in coconut oil, what those do, uh what those call for when they interact with our PAR, uh these PAR, these little receptors on our nucleus, they tend to promote more of a like of a less of a thermogenic activity in a in a cell. So it really wouldn't help us out as much if we're living in a really cold environment. So I you know, I think that's the area of this conversation that I'm more interested in. Uh I do understand that you know people are really conflicted about eating a food that raises their cholesterol levels. So, you know, when we when we get to that point, we have to then you know explain to people that all of the research on higher LDL levels is not condemning. In fact, some of it would suggest you might want higher LDL levels at an older age. So I uh there's so many layers to this, Mark. There's so many layers of this conversation about coconuts and about coconut oil and about populations that eat really large quantities of coconut oil. Some of these populations have the lowest risk of heart disease in the world. You know, people tend to they they try to just throw that out and say, well, they have very different lifestyles. Well, the the world is a lot more homogeneous now than than ever before. And I would argue that, you know, the populations that are eating larger amounts of coconut oil still have exposure to all the things that that we do here, let's say in North America. They they have a more sedentary lifestyle than they did 20 years ago. They eat more sugar and refined carbohydrates than they did 20 years ago. It's not like we're talking about populations that eat coconut oil and they're not eating white rice, they're not eating sweets or drinking soft drinks. I mean, those populations have exposure to that now. Um, these aren't living, you know, these populations aren't living an indigenous lifestyle. They're living for the most part in an industrialized type of lifestyle. They're still eating coconut oil in large quantities, and they they just don't have a significant risk for heart disease. So, like something like that carries more weight when I look at a food than you know, saying, well, this food raises your LDL levels and it raises your Apo B levels, which is, you know, people look at that as a marker of what the liver's doing uh when it when it gets you know when it gets exposure to a certain type of food. But I just think it's a fascinating uh topic, one that I knew you and I would have fun talking about this morning.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

So many fascinating points there, John. And and and to maybe recapitulate uh so much of what you touched on. Uh we do know epidemiologically when you look at South Asian, Southeastern Asian, Polynesia, South Pacific cultures that historically have consumed um coconut oil as a as a staple in in their food environment have uh tended to have much lower prevalence of not just cardiovascular disease, but all chronic complex diseases that we we struggle with in more westernized industrialized uh cultures. Uh and and so that that alone is uh is is interesting. And you touched on the you know the different ways that one might interpret that, um, but nobody would deny that uh you do tend to see much lower prevalence. I I think the the whole issue of um the uh uh source of the food uh uh in comparison to the uh the the location, the latitude of the individual consuming that food is really fascinating, uh John. I um I too am really interested, and I think of these in a very oversimplified way as the quantum effects of food, the energetic um profiles of these foods, which are you know current nutritional scientific enterprise is really not it's really not even part of that discussion. It's really not part of the research sort of framework how to measure that, how to think about that, how to study that. But but it can be said, and I and I think from my perspective, we're learning a lot through water.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Yeah.

Ketogenic Diets And Metabolic Health

LDL, Insulin Resistance, And Context

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Uh you know, just when you thought you knew everything there was to know about H2O, you'll you'll come to realize that the uh the plant, the animal, the the human, uh and at various latitudes, uh the water uh in those living substances will have different um um quantum signatures, uh energetic quantum signatures. And and I think we'll come to realize that uh uh you know when we talk about the non-nutritive value of food, I think we'll come to realize that a key uh uh dimension of non-nutritive value is the sort of light energetic signature. And there may be um um real advantages of focusing on foods, depending on the time of year and the location, that are more local and compatible with the electromagnetic sun signature environment that that you are in. I love that that thinking, Sean, even though you know we still have so much to learn about that. Another really important point that you raise is that there isn't a single study, to my knowledge, that's ever been done randomizing people at risk for heart disease, however you define that, high LDL, high APOB, diabetic, hypertensive, cardiometabolic risk factors, randomizing them to coconut oil versus a uh uh uh you know a non-coconut oil or a saturated fat-free alternative, uh, and then looking at hard cardiovascular outcomes, am I, you know, myocardial infarction, heart attack, cardiovascular mortality, congestive heart failure, those studies just haven't been done. So to extrapolate conclusions around increased cardiovascular risk based just on um LDL or or APOB, uh uh while that may be true in individuals with additional cardiovascular risk factors, that research hasn't been done. And and so um the gold standard for how one might try to address this is elusive. And uh probably fair to say those studies are never going to be done because where you know where where is the financial incentive to do so? So, you know, so the epidemiology becomes a bit more important in in an attempt to at least say, well, in populations that we know versus populations who don't consume these foods, you know, what what what does that what does that look like? And so there I I love all those um sort of nuances, and they're really important because at the end of the day, you know, there's still the evidence is still uh um inherently um you know open to various interpretations. This is this is anything but black and white, as as one might otherwise come away thinking, listening to the quote unquote expert who says it's good or who says it's bad. And you know, they're uh you know, the only thing they're really certain of is is the perception of their own knowledge and expertise, right? This illusion of knowledge. So uh it's humbling when you when you start to put down uh uh uh so yeah, um so to to sort of advance this discussion, John. Um you know, one of the one of the things that um uh um I think uh has emerged in the coconut oil realm is this issue of the the uh association between medium-chain triglycerides and ketone production uh and mitochondrial health. Because you know, you and in my experience and in looking at the research, again, this isn't high-level quality research in the ways that we currently think about that. But when you look at individuals maybe confronting cognitive decline, degenerative neurologic disease, um that there are a lot of interesting case reports of coconut oil or medium-chain triglycerides. And I'll ask you, John, to what is the sort of the difference because sometimes they're used interchangeably and they're not quite the same. Uh but you see more anecdotal um um reports of um maybe improvements, subjective improvements in cognition. Uh um many of these, of course, are are in the context of ketogenic trials where uh coconut oil is often a central part of the stage. It's a staple of a ketogenic lifestyle. So um uh and that and that would also include other condemned sources like butter and maybe whole fat dairy and certainly eggs, right? So there are a lot of sort of comparisons for which we do have more research that that would suggest that there are certain contexts where where this is an important part of a nutritional intervention lifestyle that definitely uh uh is a positive force in reducing cardiometabolic risk, neurodegenerative trajectory that you know may have a lot more to do with things beyond just the the coconut oil or the MCT oil, but but it's hard, it's hard to deny uh some of that compelling research, which is taking the form of randomized controlled data more and more. And um and so for me that's really sort of compelled compelling and an interesting thing to elaborate on a bit.

Diabetes Analogy: Glucose Isn’t The Whole Story

Coconut Products: MCTs, Virgin, And Refined

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Mark, it I mean you you opened the door to what I think is like one of the most important components of this conversation, which is the I think, and we can get into you know the benefits of ketones, because 100%. I mean, I think that's I don't know, I I would say at this point with the research, you know, there's unequivocal evidence that a ketogenic diet is going to benefit many, many people that have neurological, neurodegenerative changes. Um, you know, we we know that ketones, because of how unique they are and how they can bypass uh your kind of more normal and independent uh metabolic processes, right, can provide a cell with energy in some very unique situations when all other pathways have basically been compromised, right? So we know ketones are for many people, it's like a lifeline to better neurological function. So if we back up from that though, and we look at those ketogenic trials that you and I are talking about here, look, coconut oil is a staple of most of those diets in one form or another. And what do we also see is we see that those populations lose weight and that they see very favorable changes in their cholesterol levels, right? And I don't think, you know, I don't think it I don't think it's debatable at this point that carbohydrates play a big role in this discussion about any type of fat. Um if you have an ab if you have some type of you know carbohydrate-dense diet where insulin levels are being pushed to the the physiologically acceptable ceiling, so to speak, for lack of a better description, then I think something that increases LDL production, it's just going to accelerate that. It's going to maybe make that response look worse. Um, and I think that's the that's the case here that if you take a if you take an individual that maybe has insulin resistance, that is already producing triglycerides at a higher rate, that their liver is really, you know, putting out all these small dense LDL particles, and you throw, you know, you throw more coconut oil or you throw something on top of that that's also going to tend to increase LDL, you're going to get more of those small, dense LDLs, not solely because of the coconut oil, but because you already had some insulin resistance and you hadn't, you know, you had just there were too many carbohydrates for the liver to deal with. So I think that, you know, you bringing up that what we've observed with ketogenic diets, which again are often 50% of the calories are coming from saturated fat, 50 to 60% of the calories, right? We know that like 75 to 80 percent of the calories are coming from fat on a ketogenic diet, and usually the majority of those are coming from saturated fat. And we just see very favorable effects on every aspect of metabolism, right? So the metabolic syndrome, your risk for each of those components of metabolic syndrome decreases on a ketogenic diet. So if if the saturated fat in coconut oil was the problem on its own, we wouldn't see these kind of these kind of uh wholesale beneficial changes that we do. Um and yeah, look, the the benefits of a ketogenic diet, how much of those can be attributed to the role of ketones uh as opposed to just restricting carbohydrate intake and really getting more of that metabolism going through the Krebs cycle or aerobic respiration of the cell. I mean, that that's debatable, but we do know that ketones stimulate very favorable changes that can clear senescent cells, right? So we're gonna have, we've talked about this on so many of our discussions, we're gonna have increased rates of apoptosis and autophagy and all those things which are beneficial to cellular health. Those are ratcheted up with higher levels of circulating ketones, which you get with coconut oil in the medium-chain triglycerides that it provides. Um, so yeah, that you know, I there's just so many layers to this, but to condemn a food that has so many positive downstream effects when it's included, uh, again, we may have to like sort through what about when it's added to a high sugar containing diet? Okay, I don't, you know, I don't pretend to know the differences there. Between when coconut oil is added to a a healthy diet made up of whole foods and no added sugar. I there could be very significant differences there. I'd be the first to acknowledge I don't have I don't have firsthand uh uh understanding of the of the differences there, and I don't really see any research papers that try to illustrate the different responses that we might have. Um but I I just think coconut oil, big picture. And if we look at it from a cost-benefit ratio, the benefits that you just spoke spoke to to me far outweigh the cost or the risk of having a five to ten percent increase in our total cholesterol levels. Like that just to me is not a risk in the absence of other uh metabolic conditions.

Cooking Stability And Skin Resilience

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Yeah, I I perceive this uh in the exact same way, John. Uh and I know not everyone does, but in my own self-care, uh, and I'm somebody who historically has had high DL, uh high LDL, high total cholesterol. Um uh the I think the difference between, for for some, not all, but I think the difference between um uh adding more saturated fat, be it coconut oil, MCT oil, and other natural sources that we've talked about in individuals who are also moderating and restricting carbohydrate, sugar, flour, you know, these carbohydrate dense grain-based standard American uh diet profiles would probably look very different than someone who continues to eat a standard American diet while at the same time introducing more saturated fat. And that data is just to my knowledge not there except when you look at low-carb or very low carb ketogenic interventional trials where you are doing that uh compared to the controls. And and even in instances where uh LDL and total cholesterol or APOB might go up uh five, 10%, that's that's in the context of lowered inflammation as measured by C reactive protein, lowered insulin levels as measured by a HOMA IR, lower blood pressures, loss of of visceral fat, uh right. The global benefit, cardiometabolic benefit, um would suggest a uh a superior value proposition for this uh in those examples. And and so I I really do think it's important to think about these things through that lens. How is this incorporated into a broader, more global lifestyle medicine context? The other thing that comes up for me, John, is I was just thinking about discussing this with you uh and the and this really important concept of um comparing an intermediary outcome like um LDL or total cholesterol with a hard outcome, heart attack, cardiovascular death, congestive heart failure. Um a good example of that for me over the last 20 years or so has been in the diabetes research where glucose is just to some extent not unlike total cholesterol.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Totally LDL. You know where I'm going after.

Practical Use: Season, Climate, And Choice

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Yeah, bear with me because the listener is probably saying, where is PETUS going right now? Um what we began to it was uh 100% consensus opinion that any strategy whereby one could lower their blood glucose or their A1C as a timed average measure of blood glucose would by definition reduce cardiovascular outcomes. You'd see drops in mortality, cardiovascular mortality, you'd see drops in heart attacks and um uh congestive heart failure. And what some of the earlier trials showed, and and this is the Accord study, these were large randomized controlled trials, uh the veterans uh study. When you looked at lower uh glucose and lower A1C in the in the treatment arms, you did not see a s reductions in these hard cardiovascular outcomes. And it and it stunned the clinical community that was pretty much locked in on lower sugar has to be good, uh higher sugar has to be bad, and the intervention to achieve that is really um irrelevant. Uh so what what when people began to try to discern why it is that you're not seeing these improved outcomes, um uh the interventions raised insulin levels. Uh so you know the the these first generation diabetes, these sulfonyl ureas, which which some people are still on, um uh taking insulin, uh uh any intervention that actually increased your insulin levels uh made things worse. Uh made things worse, even though your sugars and your A1Cs were getting better. And this really points to, I think, the issue of insulin resistance, right? That's the issue in this example. Uh and I think one could make the case that that's probably the issue for cardiovascular disease. And so if the intervention is raising LDL or total cholesterol, but lowering insulin resistance in much the same way that if you're treating a type 2 diabetic and your intervention lowers both glucose and insulin, you can expect to see a very different proposition with respect to risk reduction. And I think there are some interesting uh comparisons in that analogy, John.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

I think that's brilliant. That's a great analogy. And the other thing that comes to mind with all of this, um, which I think gives me pause and it's it's kind of a fun thing to kick around. What if Ansel Keys hadn't spent time at that at that villa in Italy but had gone to the Philippines? Would we have a different food guide pyramid now? You know, that's what I always ask myself. We'd have a food guide pyramid where coconuts were probably at the bottom of the pyramid, right? And we'd have it a completely different American heart association. We'd get those red hearts on a lot of different foods now.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

Yeah, that that is a very different timeline. And it and if that if and if you believe in multiverse uh theory as I do, I assume that timeline exists. And if we could jump to that timeline, we would see a much healthier uh American demographic as well as bet better outcomes than we currently see, and probably much less expensive care. So uh 100%. It's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Well, hey, as as we wrap this up here, let me um just share again kind of high-level uh things to think about here for our listeners. Um coconut oil, again, comes in a lot of different products. And the the one thing that you know people have to understand is that if you get a MCT oil, right, which is coconut derived, or an MCT powder, which a lot of people put in their coffee, or those coconut oil-based products, they've removed the longer chain saturated fats, and you're left with just really typically eight and ten carbon-long uh medium length fatty acids. Okay, so those are in essence saturated fats, but they're refined, and you're getting those which generate ketones uh metabolically. So you've got that. Um then the other things to understand about coconut oil is that if you get an extra virgin coconut oil, those coconut, those coconuts have just basically the melting point without adding heat to it, just the melting point where they're processed and they're harvested is used to separate the oil from the rest of the coconut meat, so to speak. And then you get into your coconut oil, which would not be a virgin coconut oil or extra virgin, extra virgin coconut oil, those coconut oil products have been heated to drive off more of the oil that's found in the meat of the coconut. So when you see uh like you know, MCT oil, and then you see extra virgin or virgin coconut oil, and then you see coconut oil, there are some differences in those. And you know, I would say that in general, all of those coconut oil products, there's a place for them physiologically in our cells that make a lot more sense than industrial seed oils, which have very high levels of omega-6 fatty acids. Um, you know, again, linoleic acid is a omega-6 kind of vegetable oil-based um fatty acid that we have really limited windows of like physiologically compatible uh you know levels in the cell membrane and the mitochondrial membrane. So, real high-level stuff here is that the types of fats found in all of your different coconut oil products, there's more room for them in our in our cells and in the phospholipid bilayer and all the all the aspects of the fatty acid composition of our bodies, right? So that's one thing. They're very resistant to oxidation. So whether you're cooking with coconut oil or you're spending time in a really hot, intense sunlight environment, they're they're gonna help protect. They're gonna help protect whatever it is you're cooking, they're gonna help protect your cells from the mutative damages of the sun. So they have all of these upsides that really should make us like take pause as to, you know, whether we question the role of them in our diet. And I'd say that, you know, my personal, and I'll just leave I'll leave you and the listeners with this mark to think about. My thing with coconut oil is I do appreciate its value in the summer months and whenever I go somewhere that's hot and tropical. Um, I've seen, and I've heard this from so many people that I've worked with over the years, that when they use coconut oil more liberally uh in their diet, that their skin is far less sensitive to the sun and to into into burning. Um I just think that makes so much sense on levels. So I try to use more coconut oil in the spring and the summer months, um, and I use a little more olive oil and a little less coconut oil when we get into the real depths of winter uh here in New England. So I just think when we look at it in a high-level stuff like that, you know, I think that you're gonna see the virtues of coconut oil, independent of whether it raises cholesterol levels or not, which I think we should be far less concerned with than some of the potential damages of using another type of fat that's more polyunsaturated, that you have less physiological room for in your body. I just think big picture, big picture stuff like that really should help us feel more comfortable about using coconut oil, whether you're using modest quantities or using it more liberally. I mean, I think that's up to the individual, but I just want people to understand that there is room for it in their bodies at a health healthy level.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

That's a great place to close on, John. Really fun discussion and which I I love. Uh my my dopamine and oxytocin are always higher at the end of our discussions, John, uh than when we go in. And so uh great stuff. And I will upload some of the more recent review articles um uh that we've been looking at recently on our website, thehealth edgepodcast.com. And we appreciate people listening to the Health Edge. If this is information of value, please share with your your loved ones, your friends. Um that's this is all about touching as many people as you can, and we're grateful for the opportunity to to be present with you. So, John, until next time, take care, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

Thank you, Mark. As always, so appreciate you.