A 15-Year Study Linking Unprocessed Red Meat To Lower Dementia Risk

A 15-year follow-up study out of Sweden forces an uncomfortable question: what if unprocessed red meat isn’t a brain-health villain at all, and the real risk sits upstream in metabolic dysfunction and refined carbs? Mark Pettis and John Bagnulo dig into the data on red meat consumption, cognitive decline, and dementia risk, with a special focus on the highest-concern group: people with the APOE4 genotype. If you’ve ever seen a genetic test result and felt like Alzheimer’s disease was inevitable, we want to replace that fear with clarity and actionable context.

We break down what the research actually shows, including the dose-response signal and the critical distinction between minimally processed red meat versus processed meat. Then we explore why “what meat replaces” matters: when red meat displaces grains, cereals, and other high carbohydrate density foods, the apparent protection becomes even stronger. From there, we connect the dots to the mechanisms we think deserve more attention in both neurology and cardiometabolic care: insulin resistance in the brain, neuroinflammation, microvascular damage, mitochondrial energy shortfalls, and why plaques may be more response than root cause.

To round out the picture, we bring in parallel findings on full-fat dairy and eggs. We talk about the potential role of odd-chain saturated fatty acids, choline, and the broader “food matrix” idea that supplements rarely replicate. Finally, we share a practical set of brain-supportive foods plus a clear list of foods that should give you pause, especially flour-heavy sweets and oxidized shelf-stable animal products.

If this challenged your assumptions about saturated fat, cholesterol, and dementia prevention, subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find it. What’s the one food swap you’re willing to try for the next four weeks?

For video, slides and open source research papers: www.thehealthedgepodcast.com

Transcript

Welcome And Study Teaser

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Health Edge, translating the science of self-care. I am Mark Pettis and really delighted to be with you this morning with my friend, colleague, John Bagnulo. John, good morning, buddy. Good morning, Mark. It's great to see you. Great to see you as always. We have a really eye-opening paper that we're anxious to share with our Health Edge family. And it's a paper that looks at an epidemiologic observational trial that looks at associations of red meat consumption with cognitive decline and dementia risk later in life. And it's such a provocative paper that dovetails nicely with so many themes that we've talked about, John, in the past regarding this pervasive fear of meat and fat and whole fat dairy, and a few other papers that we've touched on in prior podcasts that sort of go along with this theme that also look at egg consumption and whole fat dairy consumption. These are all epidemiologic studies. Alzheimer's being obviously one of the more common diagnoses, but dementia also has other causes like vascular, as one sees with hypertension, and that's vascular disease is a concern with red meat and high-fat dairy and eggs. And so these papers certainly paint a very, very different picture with respect to risk and benefit. And so it'll be fun to look at that. And sort of continue to gain traction with studies coming from some of the best journals on the planet.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Yeah, absolutely, Mark. And I again this study is I mean, it's incredible in so many ways, especially when it really dives into the what we would consider to be the highest risk population, right, for Alzheimer's, those who have that APOE, either 3-4 or 4-4 uh genotype. Most people, as you know, who get that genetic testing done and learn that they have that immediately go into a state of heightened concern, sometimes anxiety. They feel that, you know, Alzheimer's, they're they're destined for it. And many of these, you know, many of these individuals learn that, you know, they have that, but they also realize that they have relatives maybe that, you know, developed Alzheimer's. And so it's at the front of their mind. And, you know, the mantra that continues to be, you know, put forth is, you know, the no red meat, you know, low saturated fat, all those things that, you know, you just mentioned. So, you know, I think this paper is phenomenal on a couple levels. One is it looks at that highest risk category, which, you know, I think is going to help a lot of people who have that genotype. And then it's so recent, you know, this is coming out of, this is a 2026 paper. This is incredibly recent. And as you said, I think it's a 15-year follow-up. Yeah, 15, yeah. It's a significant follow-up. But it with all that being said, you know, you and I are aware that we, like you, I think you just mentioned, data from the UK Biobank has already shown this, right? And there's even data from the nurses' health study that predates that, that showed similar, a similar level of protection. They didn't have it quantified quite like this more recent study. But they, you know, we've known now for a while that if you displace grains with red meat, because that's that's another big thing that comes out of this paper. They start looking at what happens when the red meat displaces other groups of foods. You just you displace grains, cereals, uh, you know, anything that has a high carbohydrate density, then the risk reduction becomes even more magnified. So that's what I love about this. I think that these uh the authors and the investigators of this paper did a phenomenal job. I mean, they they they even looked at um serum B12. They almost use that as a surrogate marker, right, for absorption and for maybe another micronutrient that was playing a role in all of this. But there's just so many uh so many subtleties to this paper that make it just an outstanding, almost a landmark paper, I think, with respect to red meat and I would say neurological health.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Awesome. Well, let's look at this. I'll I'm gonna bring up a few slides, John. So we'll we'll review the paper and and uh we'll talk a little bit more about what it what these APO um e SNPs, these polymorphisms um mean, what we understand about them, because they can be a little confusing if people aren't aren't oriented to that. As you say, they they do it's really the only genetic uh marker acknowledged to be associated with Alzheimer's. Um uh but there are are um uh as we'll we'll look at that data. Having that that that SNP, that haplotype, surely does not predict that you're going to get Alzheimer's. And then as we'll share, there are many, many, uh we'll end with um some great uh bullet points that you put together from your your most recent Substack. And I I say this every recording, John. If anyone out there listening hasn't subscribed to John Substack, you're you're missing a huge opportunity. This is um Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Thanks a lot, Mark. Appreciate it.

Ancestry And Carb Tolerance Theory

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Very economical. Talk about value. Uh and to have uh uh I I know you well enough, John, that when I'm reading uh what you're writing, I can hear your voice. Um and it's you know it's like having a consultant there uh guiding you uh each week. So just really great stuff. And so we'll end with a couple slides that summarize sort of 10 types of foods that we think are really awesome for brain health, uh, and and then 10 that should definitely give you pause. Uh and again, so much of this uh contradicts what the historical perspectives have been with respect to food and health, risk reduction. So I'm I'm gonna bring up my slides here.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

Mark, as you bring those up, you know, one thing that's really cool that the authors uh the authors point out, and it's presented more as a theory, but it'd be something, you know, I think really interesting for you and I to kick around. They look at the evolution uh of our species. Early on, right? There's a there's an illustration there of where that ApoE34 might have first originated. And maybe we're looking at this all wrong, that that ApoE gene has more to do with how much carbohydrate an individual can tolerate rather than it's a gene for Alzheimer's, right? So I I love that part of this, is it goes back to that, you know, that ancestral component to the diet. And we know that there are certain genes that make individuals more or less tolerant. Doesn't mean that a carbohydrate-dense diet is good for any of any of the individuals with with with respect to you know the human species, but there are genes that make us maybe a little more tolerant. And that that ApoE gene might be one of those genes where if you have the 2-2, uh you're more tolerant, right, of a diet that's high in grains and cereals. But if you have the ApoE3444, that you have even a lower level of tolerance than than other humans. I know that was, you know, that I found that part to be really, really interesting. That anthropological human history component to this, which we always, you know, we always touch on that.

Swedish Data On Meat Intake

SPEAKER_01 8:48

That is a really great um uh point that you make, John. And this is the uh slide. I don't know if you can see it. Yeah, that's it. That's it, yeah. Is it projecting? Yeah, it's perfect. Um yeah, it and and we we talk a lot about evolutionary biology and how uh ultimately our modern environments uh vary significantly with respect to that compatibility as we evolve. And and so, yeah, they they really I love that perspective as well. And here they're um, you know, the the uh chimpanzee, right? Our our uh our ancestors, uh predecessors, you know, were plant specialists. And uh as we evolved, particularly as we expanded our brain through the consumption of of more um uh carnivorous more red meat, more red meat, yeah. And and fish, yeah, you see the emergence of this ApoE4, uh, which is associated with Alzheimer's, as we'll look at in a second. And then the Apo3 is felt to be a bit more of a recent, recent meaning a couple hundred thousand years ago, as modern humans hit the scene, as a uh kind of a uh uh protector. It it's more consistent with sort of an omnivore type um um diet. Uh and so um yeah, that's a that's a a really good uh um thing to keep in mind from an evolutionary biologic perspective. That which may appear to be maladapted um in modern life probably had a very important contribution. And um uh and there's no question, as we'll look at in this study, um frequent meat meat eaters do quite well uh with this phenotype. So uh let me uh there we go. I'll just bring the slides back up, John, and we'll look at this study in a little more detail. So this as we talked about was um from the uh Swedish cohort uh with a 15-year follow-up. Uh and I I believe the average age was around 70-ish, right? So these are these are people at very high risk um uh uh based on the APO four genotype. And uh again, the the question they're asking is higher meat consumption associated with better cognitive health among individuals uh with higher risk genotypes, and and these higher risk um we'll look at in the next couple slides, um uh the E-genotype, so we have two alleles, right? One from mom, one from dad. Uh the the three would be considered normal, uh, four would be considered high risk. So three four uh has about two to three times the risk of of dementia, and uh four four as much as a 10 to maybe even 15 time risk uh compared to the 3.3. Uh so they looked at about 2,157 people in this cohort over 15 years. Of course, none of them had dementia at the onset of the study. And what they showed were dramatic inverse relationships. Uh higher total meat consumption was associated with a significant slowing in cognitive decline and a very significant reduction in dementia risk. And uh I'll pause there for a minute, John, because that that's just a take-home message, but that's a pretty dramatic uh difference between the uh, right? They take the highest quintile of meat consumers compared to the lowest quintile, and then they look at diagnoses over that 15-year period that would fall into the cognitive impairment. Um, they also had cognitive testing and and then of course dementia diagnoses, and um, you know, there there was as much as a I believe a 36% risk reduction for for each two ounces of meat consumed.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Yeah, a little bit, actually a little bit less than two ounces, which is phenomenal. I mean, you know, 50 grams is a little less than, you know, it's you know, it'd be more like 1.6, 1.7 ounces of red meat. If they discovered a drug, right, that reduced a person's risk of Alzheimer's by 36%, that would be like that would be the most prescribed medication in the history of the planet. Yes. And here it's red meat, right? Here it's a really easy solution. And it's there's a lot of different ways, you know, we could go with that in terms of the mechanism involved. And there's some really cool theories out there. But again, it's not new. The the UK Biobank, you know, that the data there supported also significant risk reduction with higher levels. I again, it wasn't quantified quite the the same way, but a 36% risk reduction for every 50 grams of red meat is astounding. Astounding.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Yeah, so you see a dose response.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Got a dose response.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Yeah. You see what we know there are many, many mechanisms that that uh basic science research and clinical research has demonstrated.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Uh and it's been repeated. And then there's the third the third component to this is that it's been repeated. Yes. So, you know, what people are waiting for is is hard for you and I to explain. Yeah.

Insulin Resistance And Vascular Dementia

SPEAKER_01 15:09

So let's uh we'll keep moving forward here.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

And uh just just very briefly, this ApoE gene, right? This is the strongest genetic risk factor for late onset Alzheimer's disease with this ApoE4 variant, uh, increasing the risk and lowering the age of onset. APO2 uh tends to be protective. You don't see that quite as much. Uh and you know the current thinking is there's still so much that's not well understood, but uh uh ApoE is associated with with these amyloid plaque accumulations, these tau, these these uh structural uh changes, uh, and and most importantly, neuroinflammation. And and it's well accepted now, John, right, that Alzheimer's is a good example of insulin resistance in the brain. Uh and we know that neuroinflammation, insulin resistance probably are very intricately linked as drivers, and that these plaques uh uh may be more a response to an inflammatory insulin resistance state more than they are sort of causal with respect to the dementia it itself. It's like implicating the ambulance is the reason for the car accident when in fact the ambulance is there to respond to the to the crisis, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Yeah, absolutely. And I believe that at some point we'll start to connect the dots more as a system, right? Everybody right now still operates in a silo, right? You have, you know, you have one area of research or medicine that, you know, again, believes it's mostly genetic, another that'll believe it's mostly microglial. But I think when you put it all together, to your point, so well said, it comes down to at first vascular changes due to the insulin resistance of the brain. I really think that's what this will come down to. As we know, vascular, you know, vascular changes generally precede or upstream almost almost every chronic disease, mitochondrial, right? Mitochondrial issues become secondary to that, and then you have the neuron in a crisis state. And I think just like you said, I mean, insulin resistance is at the root of every chronic disease, and I don't think this will be an exception.

Why Processed Meat Differs

SPEAKER_01 17:54

And when you look at this particular study and others that we've shared, they're not looking at just Alzheimer's, they're looking at all causes of dementia. And vascular depression is a is a very close second. Exactly. And you'll see often in people with Alzheimer's, vascular change. So these are these are somewhat um uh these are these are sort of uh descriptive um uh categories, uh, but I suspect there's a lot of overlap. So isn't it interesting that all of the things that we've been told to avoid with respect to vascular concern um may in fact protect um vascular health. And uh it it yeah, I do think it it's important uh, as we always talk about, that um you know quality is important. Uh quality of the of the meat, right? Quality of the fat, quality of the eggs. It not you know, not all red meat is the same. And and this paper does make the distinction importantly, that these benefits were not seen in processed red meat, which is a different it's a different beast. Um and so uh you know, uh not all red meat would be considered the same, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:13

No, and I I think to that point, you know, what's even more remarkable about this is that it's not as though the meat being consumed in this 15-year window of time by these participants, it's not as though this meat was grass-fed, right, pasture-raised. That this was, you know, some of this meat, although it was minimum less processed, right? It wasn't made into, you know, something with nitrites and contained, you know, nitrosamines. But that being said, that some of this meat was, without question, is going to be feedlot-raised meat with higher levels of omega-6s to omega-3s, yet you still get this type of protective effect.

unknown 19:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

That, you know, for our listeners who understand that message that you, you know, just articulated, it's the quality is so important that I think the beneficial, the properties of beneficial properties of red meat become even more magnified when you're talking about grass-fed meat. Yeah, that's a really great point, John.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

And and we'll, as we, you know, we'll when we conclude, and we remind people, particularly at a time where people are concerned about inflation, there is so much uh need to be helping those in in lower socioeconomic challenges, food insecurity, you know, as you would say, John, a dozen eggs and a pound of ground beef uh is today still far and away the most economical value food that you could buy for your hard-earned dollar. Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh coming back to the APO, just uh to sort of wrap up the APOE piece, about 25% of people, this is the other really important thing from a public health perspective, John, is you know, about 25% of the general population will have an APOE4 allele or SNP. I'm one of those people. Uh I'm APO3-4, so I have one three allele and one four allele. Both my parents had vascular disease with all of the cardiometabolic risk factors. And so uh for many, many years I've paid very close attention to this story. And um uh it it's encouraging for me because I eat a lot of red meat, I eat a lot of eggs. Um I would say uh uh though my my diet changes depending on how I'm doing and the time of year, uh kind of a paleo low carb, high healthy fat uh would sort of best define the principle. Around which I consume. And a lot of those foods would give cardiologists and neurologists great pause. And that makes me want to double down even more on that consumption. So this affects a lot of the general population. This is a very pertinent, you know, we're not talking about a small segment of people here. So again, carrying two copies, the 4-4, has a tremendous increase in risk compared to the 3-3 variant. A 3-4, as we touched on, will double or triple the risk. And you know, ABOE4 is still not well understood. It is involved with lipid metabolism and cholesterol transport. And again, the association is with plaque formation. And I think we we just still do not understand a lot about what's driving neurofibrillary tangles and beta amyloid plaques in the brains. Just as you can see people without a tremendous amount of plaque that have very advanced dementia. So these are associations that I think still are lacking more precise understanding. Raj John, we talk a lot about epigenetics, the ability to modulate the expression of a gene that a person may have an increased risk for. And this is a good example of a study that would suggest foods can modify risk at a genetic and probably epigenetic level. But I suspect there are many really interesting molecular effects that are happening here.

High-Fat Dairy And Brain Protection

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Yeah, this moves the needle, I think, in a very strong direction towards environment rather than genetics. As does this paper. And this is a 25-year-old I mean this is this is like what I'd consider to be almost a gold standard of clinical research. 25-year perspective cohort study.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

And this is that, this is also that the Swedish cohort. Yeah. And uh you're looking at uh similar epidemiology, except in this case, you're comparing um high fat dairy consumption with low-fat dairy consumption and long-term risk of uh dementia. And uh so, right, similar uh similar theme here, John. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

You walk away with I think the value of dairy fat more than the dairy protein from this from this paper, right? The cream and the high-fat cheeses carry that level of protection, not quite as significant as the red meat risk reduction, but still very significant, somewhere around 14 to 15 percent, I think, for every 50 grams of high-fat cheese and uh or 20 grams of cream, right? So that's, you know, again, that's that's very significant because 50 grams, it's less than two ounces of cheese. High fat cheese. When you get into low-fat cheeses or you get into the non-fat dairy, there really isn't any risk reduction. There's no significant difference. So that really speaks to the value of certain fatty acids, which I have strong theories about this. And it sounds funny for me to say, as a as you know, someone that really appreciates the science, but I'm not, it's not like I'm immersed right now in uh in research, but I do have strong theories around unique fatty acids that protect the mitochondria, which we could easily call essential fatty acids. I mean, the the odd chain saturated fats that are 15 and 17 carbons long, because we don't make those and we rely entirely on our diet for those, and because of how important those are for mitochondrial function, could it be, and I would argue that it's likely, that not acquiring these fatty acids through your diet because you're you're following a low-fat, you know, low animal protein diet, actually leaves you at a much greater risk for mitochondrial-based diseases as you get older. The aging brain, if it doesn't get heptadecinoic acid and pentadecinoic acid, these really unique saturated fats, which by and large, as you know, Mark, you're only going to get those from red meat and dairy fat. So if individuals aren't getting those as they get older and their bot and the body can't make them, the mitochondria essentially start to break down. And that's where I think you see some of those classic signs. You just mentioned it, you know, again, said so beautifully. You have a lot of people out there that don't have plaque formation but have Alzheimer's, right? And but what do we know about their mitochondria? Well, in in most cases, whether it's dementia or mitochondria, or Alzheimer's, I should say, excuse me, the mitochondria just aren't producing enough energy to support neurological uh energy needs. So could it be that these fatty acids, because I think at the end of the day, I think red meat, uh, and again, I I think it we'll learn more about it, but I think red meat is protective because it gives us unique saturated fatty acids. Dairy fat does as well, but I also think when people are eating more red meat, they're also typically getting a higher level of nourishment, right? For for so many things that the brain needs. You know, the zinc, red meat's one of the only reliable sources of zinc, uh, you know, in addition to some of the other things. So I love this paper, though, the dairy fat, because it um, you know, it's gonna refute two theories. One is you should avoid saturated fat, right? And and the other is that dairy foods are inflammatory. I still hear that all the time from people, even though there's now multiple studies in the last five or six years that have shown even the worst dairy products, the ones that you and I wouldn't want our listeners to choose, but they're they're rich in the sulfur-containing amino acids, and they have this, you know, they have the dairy-based saturated fat, that they're actually anti-inflammatory. Every study done on dairy shows that it has more anti-inflammatory properties at the end of the day than people appreciate. So this is a great study, and I think it does speak to the value of fat and certain fatty acids for the aging brain.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Great points across the board, John. And it and it underscores the importance that uh, you know, we talk about fat like all fats are created equal, right? These families of molecules with a with a host of metabolic function uh that can vary considerably. And then we look at the matrix of of food and and and and we know that uh uh you know, beyond the the fat, these these tend to be much lower glycemic. You don't see the same excursions of of glucose that you typically see. Um, the it it you start to see these patterns um and and the mechanisms as we understand them in in very consistent ways. And and that's what it's always so sort of um that cognitive dissonance that accompanies many of the of the guidelines and consensus thinking is just that. You you've got something that is demonstrated to do this, and then you have a recommendation. Um and so it it uh right it comes back to this the challenge, certainly, of the of the uh uh clinical research, medical industrial enterprise uh to pivot. These are not malleable uh straw cards. And and people people look at science, I think, in much the same way that they they might look at religion, right? It's like this this undying faith that anything that is labeled science is is an absolute truth. And there's such a wide range of quality in science, wide range of people doing the research with varying degrees of conflicts of interest and biases, and and so yet at the end of the day, somebody comes to you, somebody comes to you, somebody comes to me. We see a lot of people through the years that say, gee, I'm eating more meat, uh, I cut out the low-fat yogurt, dairy, and I'm going more full fat, and I've lost weight, and my blood pressure is better, and here's my my blood work, and you see their their glucose is better, and their uh A1C is better, and uh their triglycerides are better, and their HDL is better, and they feel better.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

And they feel better.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

My experience of life is better, while the the you know the clinical perception is uh I don't know. Uh yeah, that's uh you're killing yourself. Um it's an interesting phenomenon.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Um it really is, yeah.

Eggs Choline And Nutrient Density

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Uh and let's look at we'll look at one last uh study here, John, that uh just to uh underscore uh the point. And these are all recent papers. Uh this, as you said, John, is a 26 paper. And this isn't you know, neurology. This is this is uh gold standard stuff. Uh and again, this was just a kind of a summary of you know full fat uh, you know, the high-fat cheese and cream linked to lower risk, potentially due to beneficial nutrients. Uh as you said, John, there was no uh link found one way or another with low-fat uh dairy. And uh they did look at the APOE4 variants uh um less of a it it did not distinguish who would respond or who didn't. Whether you had it or not, uh the the favorable response um was present. And and this just the last of this triad of nutritional epidemiology, and and again, this was 2024 from uh the the folks at Tufts uh and um in DC, and this was looking at egg intake uh and and Alzheimer's dementia risk and older adults. Uh this was the rush memory. These are cohorts of of older adults, and um and again they track over time.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Uh and this was like a seven, is that like a seven-year, six or seven-year follow-up?

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Six and a half, seven-year follow-up, John. Exactly. And uh and again, um uh you know, recent studies suggest that consuming at least one egg per week is associated with a reduced risk of Alzheimer's. One egg per week, John, uh, right? Uh uh egg consumption may lower Alzheimer's risk by up to 47 percent in these epidemiologic studies, driven largely by choline, uh, which you talk about often, John, in the egg yolk.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Um, yeah, but it I mean it's also a food matrix. I mean, that's the one thing I I just wish, you know, I don't think the authors did as good a job as I as I wish they had. That this is a a perfect example of I do believe choline is involved, but that's that reductionism that gets us into in trouble. It's like with oily fish and thinking that it's all about the omega-3s. Um we can come back to that in a moment. But, you know, eggs have so much, right? They have so much that they offer us that many people fall significantly short of acquiring on a daily basis. You know, I argue that people should eat three eggs a day if they can. And I and I recommend that for people who have had heart attacks, for people who have cardiovascular plaque. And that's like to your point, people think, you know, that when someone eats that way and they have that history that they're killing themselves, which is it's it's crazy. It's it's very difficult, again, to explain that type of psychology given the research that that's out there. But, you know, the egg is a source of longer chain fatty acids, obviously the choline, but the vitamin A that's fully formed. And there's this, you know, there's this synergy that just doesn't get, I think, appreciated enough. And eggs are one of the most nutrient-dense foods and one of the greatest values, like you just said. I mean, even if you're spending$7 or$8 for grass pasture raised eggs, you're getting possibly the most nourishing food that you can buy at any grocery store. Definitely. That's just yeah. I mean, without without exception.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

And two two quotes can come to mind, John, with this cognitive dissonance. Uh the first, I think it was Mark Twain that said, it's not what we don't know that gets us into trouble, it's what we know that ain't so. Right. And and and there's a lot here that I think we we know that just ain't so. These are these are cool examples. Um uh but uh you know, the um uh I I think all of the um uh drivers of of health promotion, uh when you look at these foods, uh right, they all share, as you point out, the nutrient density, the the um mitochondrial nutrient benefits, the you know, the fatty acid profiles. Uh there there's there's something very important going on here. And then of course when we step it back from an evolutionary biologic perspective, um and a biocompatibility perspective, it's hard to uh you know that anyone could could suggest uh that these foods are not compatible with human existence. Um uh has a very has a very limited uh historical perspective and and uh nor nor have they looked at this this science in great detail.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

But that's a big point, Mark. Biological compatibility, ancestral exposure, you take those two things into account for these foods, and how could someone not accept them as you know being an important component to a, you know, even if they want to say well-rounded diet, even if people want to still eat a lot of the foods that you know we're gonna advocate against, how could they not be included as part of a well-rounded diet? It's just you can't make an argument. And then I'll go a step further and say, well, maybe it's because once you accept the inclusion of these foods, that undermines the entire cholesterol theory, which I'll, you know, again, I could go on and on about this for hours. But now if we accept red meat and we accept high-fat dairy foods and we accept heavy cream as being part of the solution rather than being the problem, well, so now we have to acknowledge the fact that just because a food raises our cholesterol levels doesn't make it a pathological food, right? That you don't, you're, you're not gonna, you're not going to, at that point, you're not going to operate off of this notion where if a food raises your cholesterol levels, and we, you know, again, the still the pervasive thought is that if foods raise cholesterol levels, that they inherently raise your risk for heart disease and that they're promoting disease, but we know that's not the case. And so again, accepting, let's just say, high-fat cheese, accepting cream as being part of the solution, whether it be to Alzheimer's, you're now gonna have to accept it as being part of the solution to heart disease. Which obviously, you know, cardiologists like Ron Krauss and others have shown. So that to me is a big reason why this isn't going to be accepted as readily as you and I are what we're puzzled by. The whole house of cards starts to come down when you say, you know what? Wow, saturated fats from animal foods are actually protective. Because, you know, you just said it. You know, it's not like heart disease and Alzheimer's are that different. At the end of the day, they have so many similarities. Yeah.

Ten Foods For Brain Health

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Yeah, well said. Let's in and a good, yeah, uh good uh last two slides to to bring this home on, John, or I I pulled from your substack. And I love these. Uh, and I'll I'll ask you just to go through them. Uh, sure. Because when I look at these lists, uh, you know, we're talking about um dementia and cognitive decline. Uh and to the point that you just made, that that dementia is really not that different from cardiovascular disease, the these foods on the protective list uh will protect against any chronic complex disease. Absolutely. Uh prevent. And if you're dealing with a disease, uh you you might reverse or modify that disease in a more favorable way. And if you have a genetic predisposition like an APOE4, then via epigenetics and other um mechanisms, you can take the cards you've been dealt and play them in a different way. That is a fundamentally different paradigm uh than than what has prevailed. And so, John, just take us through. Um I'm sure it took you about 14 seconds to come up with this list.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

Just a little bit longer because I was trying to come up with the numbers that would support these in this order based on what's out there in the way of research. But I would say that, you know, largely what I feel you and I have been talking about today has been structural components provided by fats, right? So the types of fats that you get in the top four of this list are going to be integral to a healthy mitochondria, to the cardiolipin within the mitochondria. And now again, the the grass-fed meat, I put grass-fed in there because I feel very strongly it would be far more protective than your kind of your conventional meat. But that, again, I want to be clear, that was not, they did not look at grass-fed meat in the study that we led off this discussion with. That was just, you know, that was just unprocessed red meat, right? From all sources. So your gold standard would be to get pasture raised or grass-fed meat. Um, and it is more protective for those with, you know, those ApoE alleles. Um, it's about almost twice as protective as it would be if someone were ApoE2 or 2-3. So, you know, that's worth noting. But that's number one. Number two would be ocean-going fish from what we call the pelagic family. These are all fish that look sort of like a bullet. If you picture what tuna looks like, you know, sardines, mackerel, um, and then salmon would be somewhat of an exception. But these fish contain, they're the only sources really of those odd chain saturated fats that I mentioned from the from the seafood family. Like you're not gonna get that 15 and 17 long carbon saturated fats um from other members of this of the seafood food group, but they're good sources of those saturated fats. I don't believe it's the omega-3s. I think the omega-3s, it's a lot like you and I talk about with sunlight and vitamin D. You know, vitamin D gets the credit for everything, but it's really the sunlight, and I think it's the same thing here. I think those omega-3s are important, and absolutely they're going to add some of the, you know, some of the protective benefits with this food group. But I believe it's much more than that, or we'd see better results from fish oil supplementation. I mean, fish oil supplementation has always failed to replicate what is seen when people eat fish twice a week, right? I mean, it just they don't they don't match up. So that's again an example of that reductionism. But uh these oily fish are like the ultimate food matrix, a lot like the egg. They give us different types of fatty acids that are underappreciated. They also give us CoQ10, they give us creatine, um, you know, again, that pelagic family of fish isn't like, it's not like, you know, your white fish like cod and haddock. They give us nutrients that you just don't get in other members of that fish family. So they're number two. And then extra virgin olive oil. Um, the thing that I, you know, I always question with olive oil, is olive oil so protective? Because people that use the most of it don't use the industrial seed oils, right? They don't use the omega-6 rich oils. They're using a really stable oil or fat. And it does contain some unique substances like squaline, which is really fascinating in terms of how that influences uh lipid metabolism and the mitochondria. But it's really clear that people who use the most extra virgin olive oil, they tend to have the lowest risk in comparison to other oils that people use for cooking or salad dressings and things like that. So that's number three. Number four. We've already talked about the full-fat uh dairy products. Again, I added the grass-fed in there. That's net that's not included in these big, you know, this 25-year follow-up study. Grass-fed was never separated, but there are things in grass-fed dairy products like phytanic acid, which makes its way up through the food chain from the grass into the fat. That's also very protective against mitochondrial inflammation, things like that. So that would be the gold standard of a dairy product, full fat and grass-fed. It's going to have more vitamin K2, all types of K2. Then this is our first, you know, I guess olive oil would be plant-based, but this is our real, our first vegetable group. And I have real strong feelings about this group. I think that they're the most valuable addition to the diet as plants go. There's no carbohydrate burden, right? They're not, they're not offering significant levels of carbohydrate at the end of the day, but they deliver a massive amount of micronutrients, especially potassium. And you and I have talked in years past about the value of potassium in terms of being protective against cardiovascular disease, protective against cerebrovascular accidents. And I believe that at the end of the day, like we talked about earlier, there's always that circulatory component to these diseases, right? These m these microvessels that are so susceptible to fluctuations in blood pressure, to limitations with how they dilate. And we know potassium really assists with all of that. It keeps blood vessels very elastic-like. So that's where I think those greens really come in at that protective level. Because that's a pretty, you know, again, that's they're very protective against uh Alzheimer's, you know, much more so than any other plant-based food. And then there's a significant drop when you get down to small dark berries. They do have that, you know, antioxidant, anti-inflammatory component. They have unique substances like anthocyanins, which have been shown to prevent microvascular changes as we get older. Um, turmeric and curry. Again, it's worth noting though, the turmeric has to be heated, and typically it has to be heated in some type of oil for it to become bioactive and to actually have the beneficial properties that would be downstream from its absorption. So we can't absorb turmeric or curry without it being heated and added to some type of oil. Uh so that's number eight. Number nine, freshly ground flaxseeds. That's, you know, that again, this is the only member of that kind of nut and seed family that cracks the top 10. Flaxseeds do give us uh some unique substances like ligands, which we know affect the microbiome. They also affect circulatory uh components or our hemodynamics. And then lastly, unfiltered light roast coffee, which is great news for so many of our listeners, you know, that look at this list and say, okay, all of these things I gotta work towards eating more of, but that's one thing I maybe already have in place, right? And it's unfiltered because these fat-soluble molecules that can be transported in the blood in lipids like LDLs, uh, they can protect those LDLs from causing uh causing changes, detrimental changes at the endothelial lining. So that would be like camphorol and cafeic acid, catfistrol, all these really, really cool fat-soluble molecules that are filtered out, unfortunately, if you if you use, if you run your coffee through a filtered paint, like some type of filter or paper, you're gonna remove those. But if it's unfiltered, when you when you absorb those and they get into circulation, they offer microvessels a certain level of protection that I think is underappreciated. So those are that's the top 10.

Foods That Damage Microvessels

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Awesome. That's a that's a great list, John. And we'll we'll end with uh the other end of the spectrum.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

And again, these are uh Yeah, I could break these down, Mark, into two categories. They're either gonna be really carbohydrate dense, right? They're gonna have flour at the core of their ingredients, and then to make matters worse, they're gonna be sweetened. You know, I mean, pastries and cookies, and you know, all of the foods that are mostly flour and sugar are gonna be the worst things that we can consume because the carbohydrate density is through the roof. And you get, you know, you get blood-brain permeability changes, you get, you know, high levels of lipopolysaccharides uh in circulation. So that's detrimental to every facet of who we are. And then the other category here, just a simple-be.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Yeah, excuse me, John. Uh we've talked a lot about carbohydrate dense foods. And essentially we we're talking about grains, right? These are these are uh carbohydrates that um are not contained inside a cell wall or a membrane. So they're freely reduced, rapidly uh absorbed, and and even whole grains, though they they are less processed, are very carbohydrate dense. And I think anyone wearing a continuous glucose monitor would be stunned at what a bowl of steel-cut oats uh or a couple slices of whole wheat bread, right? Thing things that would get a heart-healthy label are very highly glycemic. And this is what what we need to be concerned about. Sorry to interrupt.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

Yeah, though that's that's a great point. That you know, the way that those carbohydrates are metabolized because of that density compared to, let's say, the carbohydrates in a sweet potato, it's not it's a night and day difference. Yeah. When those investigators substituted red meat in for different categories of food, like if the red meat was displacing cereals and grains, the protective effect became even more magnified. The only like carbohydrate source of carbohydrates that when red meat displaced it did not lead to further risk reduction was for tubers and root vegetables. Right? So that's, you know, to me that's really cool because it's it's showing here's another Paleolithic food. Here's a food that does contain carbohydrates, but typically at carbohydrate densities in the teens, like 13 to 19 percent, not at 80 to 90 percent, like those oats you mentioned. So the lower carbohydrate dense tubers, root vegetables, again, they contribute. They contribute to some of our nutritional requirements without the downsides that you know that are that are challenging us with when it's cereals or grain based. So yeah, I digress on that. Um, so that's carbohydrate density is a big one here. And you go down through this list, you see obviously candy. It didn't matter if it was chocolate-based or not. I, you know, all types of candy are gonna increase someone's risk for Alzheimer's or dementia. Granola bars, I think so many people eat granola bars, they think they're better than I don't know what they think they're better than, but granola bars are just uh a wolf in sheep's clothing when it comes to microvessel changes and inflammation. Okay, then the other component to this list, if it's not carbohydrate density, it's going to be oxidized lipids. That's the best way I could sum up, you know, these other ones. Like when you look at heavily processed and spray-dried, like powdered milk and powdered eggs, powdered cheeses, the cheese, the cheeses that you know come powdered in these little packets that people add to mac and cheese. Like when they dry those, the cholesterol in those foods becomes oxidized and it forms an oxysterol, which is like a big part of the etiology of heart disease. And we're gonna learn later, I'm sure of it, that it's a it's a component to Alzheimer's and dementia. Oxidized cholesterol is the enemy, not cholesterol per se, but when cholesterol is oxidized or damaged in the food processing, you know, along that, along those lines, it that's when it really starts to contribute to the burden on microvessel health. So anything that is dried, has a long shelf life in the way of an animal protein is a concern. You know, you want to eat minimally processed foods first and foremost, and that certainly includes all your animal foods. So that's why the unprocessed red meat is protective, but the heavily processed meat, the meat that's given a long shelf life, whether that be by chemical means or by some sort of drying process, that's a different story because you're oxidizing the lipids and you're destroying, you know, you're destroying some of those fatty acids that are more beneficial. So, you know, I think just keep the animal proteins to the minimally processed and they're going to be protective. Avoid all the carbohydrate dense foods and and really use, you know, berries and root vegetables for your carbohydrates. And it's wow, it's a pretty straightforward path.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

Beautiful. That's a that's a great uh go-to list just for principles. And I love the way you laid that out, John. Yeah, it's fun.

SPEAKER_00 53:10

It's fun talking about this stuff on big picture, big picture levels.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

Indeed, it is. Well, hopefully we we gave our Health Edge listeners, many, many of whom I think are already oriented to the to the principles that we laid out, but it's nice to have um very recent um clinical research uh of good quality that we can share to reinforce these principles and and uh and when when research suggests otherwise, uh we like to look at that. So um uh, you know, like you, John, I I the lens through which I look at my own self-care, my own understanding of sort of who I am and how I function in this modern complex environment looks very different today than it did uh even five years ago, ten years ago. It's almost unrecognizable to how I looked at things and how I applied those in my own self-care 20 plus years ago. And um it that the uh importance of being open-minded uh and adapting, right? Uh and we we've brought out many instances where that's challenging in these institutional models of research and and and education and information sharing. Um and so the n equals one, uh I think anyone, John, who who takes a few lists of those of those foods that are concerning and substitutes them with a few on the list that are uh health promoting and did that for as little as four weeks, uh they would notice something very significant. Uh and that's the ultimate um that's that's where the truth uh unveils itself for that individual. And uh that's that's probably the the thread woven through most of what we share with folks on the health edge. So uh really great. I really enjoyed this discussion.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Yeah, same here, Mark. I can't thank you enough. As always, and you're you're like the first to you're the first to uh to to find some of these amazing papers. That that's a really, you know, again, a very for our listeners' sake, that's a very recent publication. You know, it's an early 2026 paper, and it's a good one. And so thanks so much for for sharing that with us.

SPEAKER_01 55:39

Well, enjoy uh the rest of your busy week, John, and I look forward to connecting next week and um be well and stay well. Hey, you too. Love you, bud. Love you too, brother. Take care.