Kathy Whitworth - Part 1 (The Early Years and LPGA History)

World Golf Hall of Fame member and the winningest player on any Tour ever, Kathy Whitworth, begins her remarkable story by sharing how she came to the game of golf at age 15 using her grandfather's clubs and how the local pro, Texas Golf HOF member Hardy Loudermilk, provided early guidance before sending her off to Austin, Texas to see the renowned teacher, Harry Penick. These two men shaped the game of Kathy, who turned professional in 1958 and joined the fledging LPGA Tour the following year. She recalls the tough times she endured before finally cashing a check at the Land of the Sky Open and reaching the winner's circle in 1962. Hear Kathy talk about some of the Founders of the LPGA, fascinating women with strong personalities all. With 88 LPGA wins and 95 second-place finishes, we still have a lot to cover with Kathy Whitworth, "FORE the Good of the Game."

Transcript

Mike Gonzalez 0:33

Because we get to start telling the women's stories. And I can't think of a better person to start with than the lady we've got to start.

Bruce Devlin 0:42

For me to go through uh all her victories would take us uh probably four or five hours, to be quite honest with you. And what a thrill it is to have the lady who's won more LPGA golf tournaments than any other player that's ever lived. It's a wonderful pleasure to have with us today, Kathy Whitworth. Welcome.

Kathy Whitworth 1:04

Thank you, Bruce. It's nice to be here. And uh I look forward to it. You know, it's always fun to go back down memory lane, and and uh that's what I do when I do some talks and everything. But uh I think it's great what y'all are doing, and I'm very uh happy to be part of it.

Mike Gonzalez 1:21

Well, thank you for joining us, Kathy. And as we've talked offline, uh there is so much to talk about because one, you've got a very, very extensive and accomplished uh record of golf. And two, there's a lot of LPGA history that we want to sort of share with our listeners along this journey of interviewing the ladies. No better person to help us tell that story of the LPGA tour than Kathy Whitworth. We always start at the beginning. And I've got to suppose that you were born in Monaghan, Texas, simply because that was the nearest hospital to Jow, New Mexico.

Kathy Whitworth 1:58

Well, my family, um uh my dad was working there uh at the time, and uh and during that era, you know, 1939, everybody was looking for jobs, and and um but uh they my mother and dad both lived in Jao, and then they went to Monaghan's um for a job, and uh and that's for when when I came along, and so I was born in Monaghan's, but shortly after that, from what I hear, uh we all moved back to Chow. So I spent um all my life there, pretty much.

Mike Gonzalez 2:37

Yeah, yeah, your dad ran a hardware store.

Kathy Whitworth 2:40

Yeah, he was in the hardware business. Um he didn't start in there. He uh his dad worked for uh Agme Lumber Company and and um uh and they kind of moved him around uh wherever the jobs or he needed, they needed him, or he could get a better job. And so my dad went to work for him uh in jail for a while, and then he also went to work for a Western Natural Gas Company. Of course, out in that area, that was a permium basin, the oil and gas capital of the world, pretty much, and then El Paso Natural Gas was the um main employer, and uh they uh most of the people that lived in jail worked for El Paso, but it was a ranch and cattle uh community as well. So dad uh his mother had started a harbor store, and and uh as as I understand, it went along and then opportunity came for mom and dad to buy the store. So um they bought the store, and that's what he did, and mom uh did for your whole life.

Mike Gonzalez 3:50

So tell us a little bit of how you got introduced to the game of golf at a young age.

Kathy Whitworth 3:55

Well, uh, you know, I was well, you don't know, uh but uh I had a lot of natural ability, uh sports-wise, and I I loved to play sports of any kind. And um and back in those that era, especially in a small town, there really wasn't any organized sports for boys or girls, basically. And so it was just neighborhood things and um baseball, basketball, you know, tennis. And I got and hooked on tennis uh as it uh uh came about. I uh but and I love to play. Um I don't know, I don't know how good I was. I I seem to think I was pretty good, but uh but you know you you're that's in your own mind. But anyway, uh the kids I played with those belonged to this little uh country club, nine hole golf course, uh the outcountry club, and they are their parents belonged to the club. And so the end of the school year, when I was 15, they said, Oh well, let's go play golf. And I thought I wasn't real thrilled about it, but um uh my granddad played and he my grandmother had kept his clubs, so I borrowed the clubs and and I I just couldn't believe how hard this game was. And I I was so ticked. Uh but it just absolutely um I mean I just fell in love with it uh at that time and and um I don't I'm sure I did because I I did love to play tennis, but I don't remember playing tennis much after that because I just um every chance I had I went to I went to play golf or I went to hit balls as best I could and I we didn't have a driving range and what few balls I had, uh I'd take them out to the uh pasture somewhere and me and the cows could yeah uh and I'd hit balls out there with him and but um anyway I played during the week. Uh I was uh I could play uh my family didn't belong to the club, but I could play green, pay Green Fee and play during the week. And uh and and of course I played every day uh if I could, and and um and it wasn't there was no problem with that. Uh I don't there was no discriminatory thing. I never I never witnessed that or um that never came up as far as I know. And um and then my mom and dad uh they joined the club uh so that I could play on the weekends as well. So I played every every weekend, every day. I mean I wouldn't I did during the wintertime, of course I was out there too, but uh I was just consumed with it. And um uh but I did have help. Um uh Al Forrester was the pro there, I think, at the time, and and he kind of helped me a little. And uh then um but the one that really really uh influenced my career for sure, and and my whole actually my whole life, but Hardy Loudermilk was the uh uh one that really uh helped me and did the most for me because as it turned out Hardy knew Harvey. And uh and that's how I got to Harvey. Because he called up, I understand it, he called up Harvey and asked me if he could see this young kid, and um he thought, I guess I don't know, I wasn't privy to the conversation, I'm just uh uh conjuring this up. It had to build something like that anyway. Um he said sure, and so mom and I drove to Austin, Texas, and uh spent three days there, and it was just incredible. Uh so Hardy was the one that got me to Harvey, and I got to him. I guess I've been playing about a couple of years, and as they say, the rest is history, but he was just uh it was just uh and again, these are things when you you don't realize it, uh when you're experiencing and doing it, and so you just do it and you just go along. But when you look back on my career, when I look back on it, I think about all these people that um oh helped me along the way, like Hardy and and uh other uh people that have uh uh wanted to uh you know help me get started and get on the tour. And it just uh you just think, well, I it was meant to be, you know, because I wouldn't have I didn't know what was going on. I was just doing and playing as hard as I could, but uh without these people, I wouldn't ever have made it. So, you know, no no matter how much talent you have, if you don't have the right instruction and and uh people that are supporting you, and uh it's difficult, but it's it was you know, I just was really, really lucky.

Bruce Devlin 9:20

So, Kathy, it didn't it didn't take you very long. Uh three years after you started to play golf, you you won the New Mexico State Amateur Championship in 1957. That that that was was that the thing that started you thinking about maybe turning pro?

Kathy Whitworth 9:39

Well, um I don't I probably I don't know that Bruce. I just uh I was just playing and that and the thing about turning pro when I did uh uh I had visited with Mickey Wright about this. She was uh doing some exhibitions around the area, she and Betsy Rawls. And they invited me to play uh the little nine-hole exhibition with Mickey a couple of times, and uh and I I asked her if I could talk to her about it, and she was very gracious. And I went in and we sat down and talked, and and she knew I was working with Harvey, and and she's she recommended that I wait a year uh before I turn pro. And I and she was right, I think I probably wouldn't have been not quite so hard, but but there was no way to uh there wasn't any um uh you hate to phrase it that way, but the competition wasn't as as as good as as it was back east, you know, to play against uh better players, and I so I didn't have any re have any gauge uh as to how good I was or how bad I was, and uh and I couldn't get better unless I competed with better players. So we just decided uh and I remember uh mom and dad and I we talked about it, and and again I had Hardy and Dad and two other businessmen um formed a little corporation, you might say, I guess, and uh and they uh would finance me for three years uh on the tour, and um and they would get 50% of the of winnings. 50% of zero is zero. And uh so you know I would just uh get amused at that. But there and again uh these everybody in a small town knows everybody else, of course, and and they were willing to uh go together and and make that happen. So that's why you know I turned pro. I well, I I I applied for membership in 58 and and then I went on tour in 59. But that's uh that's why I went so early, and and I struggled, there's no question, and I almost quit. Um because I was playing, I just really wasn't playing well, and and um I thought, gee, I you know, I maybe I just not good enough. But I came back home, uh we had a break, came back home and talked with mom and dad about it, and uh they said, Well, you've got three years, you know, uh to see if you can make it happen. And and and so it that sort of made me relax a little bit because I thought, okay, I don't have to do it today. I've got three years to make this happen, and if it doesn't happen, then I know I uh maybe that's probably how if I haven't, it's time to do something else. So went back out on tour, picked up the tour in on the east coast, and I remember because it was such a milestone. Went back out and we played uh Asheville, North Carolina.

Mike Gonzalez 12:58

And um Land of the Sky open.

Kathy Whitworth 13:01

Yeah, well, and also another another learning moment was um, and I I've told Betsy this, but uh because it was such an eye-opener to me, uh, but I read an interview she did with a newspaper, and and one of the comments she made was uh she said, you know, I work harder for an 80 than I do a 70. Because when you're shooting 80, things aren't going well. And and uh and I thought, well, uh so she was she said, in essence, she was saying that you know you have to bear down harder when things are not going well. If you're shooting 70, things are going pretty good. Yeah, but I thought, you know, I thought that's what I'm doing. I'm I'm just quitting uh after you know I hit a bad shot, and I think, oh, you know, rounds over, and uh I was and I I didn't realize that's what I was doing until I read that interview and then went out to play, and sure enough, I hit a bad shot and I just sort of, you know, poor me a sort of attitude, and I thought, no, I'm just gonna try to, you know, do better and try harder. And didn't play particularly outstanding uh that week, but uh I made my first check. And Jack and I had about to say he said his first check was pretty much the same. It was $33. And so I I tied with three other girls for last place money, but I thought I you'd have thought I'd won the tournament. I was just so excited, I could have thought, oh man. But that was just such a big turning point, and I have to say, uh I tell young players when I have an opportunity, I said, because I didn't know that I was giving up. But um I was, and so I I said at that moment, I never gave up again. I that was just never an option for me.

Bruce Devlin 15:01

Very interesting.

Mike Gonzalez 15:02

Just a couple of things, Kathy, for for our listeners. Uh first thing is you're talking about uh you're talking about uh Harvey uh in Austin, Texas. And for our listeners, won't you just tell us who that Harvey was?

Kathy Whitworth 15:18

That's hard to describe. Of course, at the time I was um, I mean, uh if Hardy Loudham told me that I need to see Harvey, I I needed to see Harvey. So I mean, uh he was just great. Uh and I'm I'm like I said, blessed that I had him so early. And um but really nobody really knew who Harvey was, you know, and I'd go into a press room just like you know, Tom and Ben used to do the same thing. And Bessie, Betsy was uh Rawls was one of his students, and the press would ask you about, you know, well, who did you, you know, who taught you and everything, and you'd say Harvey Pennick, and they'd look at you like, who's he?

Bruce Devlin 16:01

Who's that?

Kathy Whitworth 16:03

And then you try to explain, and of course that didn't go over. So, and and of course, those of us that knew Harvey, we were and there were a lot of people that he taught over the years that uh have the same experience, you know, they just are just to have they've helped he has helped so many people, and he was, like he said, he says, I'll if anybody wants to learn to play, he says, I'll be happy. You know, it didn't matter who they were. A you know, a man, woman, child, a great player, bad player, but it was um, he just was such a um, oh gosh, I don't know what the term would be, but he he was just a uh huge student of the game, and he loved to learn. He said I learned something new every day. And um uh and he did a lot of PGA shows or you know uh events around the country. They'd invite him to come and speak to the uh their members, and and they would ask him a lot of questions, of course, and and sometimes he didn't know. He says, Well, I'll find out. So he made a study of uh examining how what made the ball go this way, or the club coming in this direction. I mean, he just and he gave that all to his students, and um uh just you know, but probably the biggest thing he gave me, and and I went to see him just before he passed away, and um we were talking. But I spent the first three days that I went there, I and because I didn't live in Austin, he was very we were very adamant about it, and and there was the grip. And to this day, uh I just am so thankful that he did that. And another thing, too, when I went back to Chow, uh he would uh he would call Hardy and they would talk on the phone, and he would Hardy would oversee me to be sure I was doing what he wanted me to do. And um but the grip was just such so so important. And um, and by doing that though, and when I went to see him, and we were just and he said he he got a grin on his face, and he says, you know, it really is all about the grip. And I said, Yes, it is. He said it's not the only thing. We worked on other things too, of course. And I mean it was a problem, but he said it's the it's not the only thing, but it's the first thing. Yeah, so by having a good grip allowed me to do other things that were uh you know crucial in the swing, and um uh and so but it was just that was just such a oh I can't thank him enough for that. But um, and like I said, he did other things for me. I mean, there were a lot of things I did. I didn't know why I'd do them, but um I didn't know exactly why until maybe a year later, and then I think, oh, that's why he wanted me to do it this way. But yeah, I mean it's just you know, it's things like that, but he was just uh I like I said, I can't I can't really and when he re wrote the little red book, and he told me and it and we were always after him, and yeah, not only me, but other people were uh wanting him to write articles and you know things of that type, and he he wouldn't. And he said, the reason is that um I'm afraid that they're gonna misinterpret what I say. And he said, I'll do more harm than good. So he just he was really, really, really reluctant about writing things down. He but he did tell me one day, I said, Harvey, you can't leave us without writing this down. And he says, Oh, I have a little book, a little journal in the that he keeps in the pro shop, and um uh then he writes little things down, um, it may be just one thing on a page. But anyway, as it turned out, that little journal was read. And uh when Bud Sprake he finally uh agreed to write it, uh that's why they became the little red book, was because the journal was read. And that's what uh but Harvey would write these little things down, and uh and that's pretty much what uh is in the book. But of course, after the book came out, now everybody knew who Harvey Pendick was.

Bruce Devlin 20:41

So Kathy. Yes, let's let's go back to uh 1962. Okay and tell tell us about the first victory, what the first of two that year in 1962. Well d how did that change your life when you've when you finally got into the winner's circle?

Kathy Whitworth 21:03

Well, uh I don't know that it really changed some so much, Bruce. I but I you know I played pretty well at uh different times and I'd lost a couple of playoffs, and and I even told mom and dad, I said, you know, I may never win, uh, but I'm just having the best time. I was making enough money to pay my own way, and I said, but I'm just having the best time. And so uh when I won, it really I didn't win. I mean, I I did in a way, but I mean I I had just had a really good round the last day. And Sandra Haney told me later, or the story goes is that she three putted the last O to let Whitworth win her first tournament. And I thanked her for it. I said, Well, thank you. Uh but anyway, I sort of backed into that, and so I didn't really feel that I was really had won it, uh you know, going down a little. And the the second win later on that year, but I I'd finished second I think eight times prior to that second win. So I was playing pretty good. And um and then we got to Phoenix Scottsdale and we played Paradise Valley. And I just remember uh you know, we didn't have scoreboards or standards or you know uh all the things they have today, which is great by the way, but you just you didn't really know how you stood, you know, you just had a word of mouth or picaddies or someone would give you a heads up. And as I I remember, and I was going, uh we were I was going head to head with Mickey, and you don't beat Mickey very often, and uh so she was behind me, but I I felt like I mean I was playing, I was playing good. I was I was playing pretty well and got to the 18th hole and and it was a par four and I I did a good drive and the pin was tucked in behind the uh trap on the left, and I remember making a conscious decision that I didn't know uh how I stood, but I I thought I might have to birdie this hole um to win, and I made a conscious decision to go for it, and so I did. I mean, I hit a nice shot in there and and I made the putt. But uh the thing that I and I won, but I didn't know that I I didn't have to bird the last hole, but it was a mind, it was a uh changing of the mind thought to me was that that gave me the um confidence that I I could I could execute the shot if I needed to, and I uh under the pressure of trying to win and and not back off or be afraid of you know, if I and I could have screwed up. I mean, it was there was I always had opportunity to do that. And but as it turned out, I made that decision and then uh so that just gave me more confidence, Bruce, than the first win. And um and then you know I I finished well the rest of the year.

Mike Gonzalez 24:23

Yeah, hard to hard to believe, uh Kathy, that uh uh you say it's hard to beat Mickey Wright. Well, she finished second to you 11 times in her career.

Kathy Whitworth 24:33

Yeah, but that's when she just played bad. Uh yeah, she just had a bad day. No, it uh and playing with Mickey was just such a joy. Uh in my mind, she was the best player I ever saw. Yeah, I know I know Ben Hogan has made that comment, and uh Tom Watson and you know, and the guys that have watched her play, and it's hard to describe, but um she was by far the best player ever, and uh I think she would have won a lot more tournaments had she not quit so early in her career, and uh, but that's another story. But anyway, uh I learned a lot by playing with Mickey, and she helped me a lot of times. I'd have a question about some things, and um, you know, and she was she and I knew she would be uh honest with me and she would tell me uh straight up, you know, uh no holes barred kind of thing. And so uh I went to her several times for advice, and and um uh so I she was just uh and I didn't really get close to Mickey until later uh in our uh careers, and and uh and I'm so happy about that. But um, but she was I mean she was always very gracious to me, and um but it was just fun to watch her play. Uh and I I I tell this story, and I told Mickey about it, and I said, I tell this story all the time. But in 1959, you know, I first year on tour, you just don't get paired with the great players of the day, and but sometimes you do just because there's so few of us. And I got paired with Mickey, and we were in French Lick, Indiana, playing the Donald Ross course. And uh I can't remember if it's number one or ten, but uh it had a tree in the middle of the fairway. It was a slight dog leg uphill to the left, and uh and you kind of had to make a decision about whether you I didn't have any decision, I just went left. And but Mickey was gonna, I think, take it out around to the right and maybe draw it back in. Anyway, she hit the tree, it dropped down, and I saw her over there practicing this shot, and she was taking this full backswing and coming through the hitting area like she wouldn't have a normal shot and stopping on the other side. And I thought, I gotta watch this. Because she didn't, she had an abbreviated follow-through. And saw it over there and I was watching her, and so she hit this shot, and she this ball just flew off the club face, and and and she stopped it on the other side. And she maybe nudged a tree, but not much. But anyway, that ball just took right off and went on the green. And I just I don't think I can hit this. I'm I'm out of my league here. I don't I can't I can't play like Becky, right? So, but I told her later about it. She said, Oh, I remember that shot. I said, You do? She said, Yeah. I said, Well, I anyway, she said, um, she said, I practiced that, you know, um, that shot. I said, You yeah. I said, I can't, all right. She said, Have you ever tried it? And I said, No. Well, I tried it and I almost killed myself. Uh, you know, it is really difficult to do. But that's how she created, she said, that's how she created such clubhead speed at impact. And I can see that, uh, you know, you come through that hitting area and you know, and then you try to stop it as fast as you can on the other side. Not at the ball, but on the other side. And man, I mean, the clubhead is just flying, and that ball is flying. So um that's why I'm saying Mickey was just ahead and shoulders above all the rest of us.

Mike Gonzalez 28:24

And for our listeners that uh, you know, certainly not old enough to remember the playing days of Mickey Wright, what made her so good?

Kathy Whitworth 28:33

Well, uh she was a great competitor, of course, and and uh I was one, but she was a uh a student of the game, the of the swing, and sometimes she said I was really maybe too too critical of herself, and and Betsy Rawls was a real dear friend uh of Mickey, and and um uh she told Mickey, she said, You're you know, you're just getting too caught up in the swing analysis of it. And um uh and anyway, it kind of freed her up a little bit, but but she was always trying to you know improve and and figure things out. And uh I remember seeing her and Betsy out on the practice range many times, you know, talking to each other because they both were so smart. And um, and Bessie was pretty uh a terrific uh uh friend and and and and also uh a student of the game, and of course with Harvey. Um she knew a lot. But anyway, they they would work on things, and and I just think, boy, and uh, but that was just an observation uh Bruce and Mike. I don't really know. Uh to me that was one thing that made her great, but uh um she she loved to compete and she loved to execute the shots and and she loved to, you know, it was uh it was just uh um competition with herself as much as anything, and uh uh you know, concentration, and she was, you know, another one that would uh be very uh I I got uh uh one time I was I just got myself in a real jam and I oh gosh, I was hitting the ball really great on the practice T, but then I'd get to the first T and I just couldn't hardly get the club back. And I just I just couldn't, you know, I didn't know what to do. And I'd go hit some balls and I'd hit them just great on the driving range. And that's when I went to Mickey. I said, Mickey, I don't know what's going on, but I said, I just you know, and she said, Well, I was thinking too much of a swing and not as much as the target. And uh I never lost target of uh lost focus of the target again, and I finally it just was a mindset. I got on the first seat, and I thought, well, you gotta hit it, so I no matter where you hit it, you gotta go hit it again.

Bruce Devlin 31:02

That's right.

Kathy Whitworth 31:02

Yeah, you know, and I just thought, okay, here we go. And it was, and so I never went there again. But uh fortunately, Mickey was uh she she said, Yeah, you can't that uh cliche about uh uh paralysis by analysis, and that's what it was. I was just paralyzed. So I never practiced again the rest of the year. I just uh I just warm up a little bit, but I wouldn't, and I just thought, you know, you just gotta trust what you got. And and that's uh and that's um you know a learning experience. I don't know if other players go through that. I I think they probably do, but you just you gotta stop, you gotta just you take your swing to the golf course, and then you know, you forget about everything, but just hitting it where you think you need to, and you know, just a process. And yeah, and that really, really, really helped me a lot uh from then on.

Mike Gonzalez 31:55

Yeah, well we've uh we've covered Kathy your first victory, which was key. We covered maybe a more important one, which was the validation victory. We've only got 86 more to talk about. But uh before we carry on with your career, why don't you paint a picture for us to help us a little bit with how uh the core and LARP got by the time you start your career? LPGA tour was founded in 1950. It had a precursor to that, the the WPGA had a short life, I think, in the 40s, perhaps. But uh tell us a little bit about what you remember and what you know about the founding and the founders.

Kathy Whitworth 32:36

Well, uh fortunately, I got I got to meet most of the founders. Um when I came on the tour, of course, I as I said earlier, I did I didn't get to meet Babe, but um uh that would be my only regret uh because I was just such a fan of hers and and she was just so instrumental for sure in helping the tour get started. But the other founders, uh I like I said, I found I I met most of them, I didn't meet them all, but um uh and you know, and and to think what they were you can just imagine. But the thing that I impressed me about the founders, and I I look back and I I read up on some of them, and of course some of them were just coming out of World War II. Uh and you know, Patty was uh she had joined the Marines, she was a second lieutenant, I think, and uh and other other ladies were in the uh um Air Force. I can't remember the women's air force, the wife or uh WAF.

Mike Gonzalez 33:37

Yeah, the the the the Wasps, yeah. Uh Helen Detweiler was uh was a wife.

Kathy Whitworth 33:41

I mean these women were very strong personalities, to say the least, and for sure Babe was. But um uh and they're but they they love golf and they got introduced to it, and and they did a lot of I mean, like Sam Sneed and and uh Gene Sarison and those guys were all uh you know in the same boat. They were on a real tour for these uh for either one, and they did a lot of exhibitions and stuff for the sporting goods company. And really the uh Wilson was really key, uh because they had Patty and Babe and then eventually Mickey and Betsy and everything. But and then they had, I think uh Sam, you know, was Wilson, and then you had McGregor and Spawning. Um and so uh the sporting goods companies kind of banded together and kind of tried to make the tour and financed it uh somewhat and tried to get it off the ground because they needed a place for these girls and ladies to play. And um, so that was a big part of it. And but these personalities were just uh terrific uh when you read about them personally and what they went through and how they got to the game and uh their career before they ever started the LPGA. But of course, I got to be later on, I got to be real good friends with Patty and Betsy, of course, and um and the the Bauer sisters, Marlene and Alice. What a duo they were, and uh became uh good friends with Marlene and um but I you know I just uh I just think about those those ladies uh coming together and um and deciding to and and uh and and like I said, these strong personalities, I mean, they had their own opinion about things. So uh I mean for these women, you know, Betty Jameson, another one, uh Louise Suggs, uh, and you look at back at their history, I mean, they're just you know very strong-willed women, and uh but they but they took that, and I think that's one of the reasons why they got together finally and formed the LPGA uh as opposed to the women's. Uh I know there was a little bit of tug back and forth on that, but um uh I think the LPGA that was uh well it won out, and I think that was good. But um gosh, it was just a real pleasure to to get to know and and watch these women play, and like I said, the only one I really I'm sorry was Babe and uh and but I got to know George uh pretty well later on, and that was fun. But but I got to hear a lot of stories. Peggy Kirkbell uh wouldn't have found her, but she was around and became really, really good friends with Babe, and um so I'd hear I I got to hear a lot of stories from Patty and and Peggy about their uh friendship with Babe and everything. And the stories are just unbelievable. I mean, you just just they are just so fun. And uh so it was always great fun to hear them talk about and they're you know time, and Peggy Kirk Bell is a story in herself. Um of course she and Bullet uh developed uh pine needles, and uh it was just a terrific, um uh terrific story. And of course, they're gonna have the US Open there again this year at Pine Needles. So uh there's quite a history there, and I'm I'm just so sorry that we lost Peggy and uh gosh, what a great uh uh you talk about, you know, that uh she comes across as maybe, you know, she uh always was kind of I mean she had a great sense of humor and and everything, but she was one smart cookie.

Mike Gonzalez 37:46

Yeah, you know, it was so much fun to to go back and just learn a little bit more about some of these founders and and a lot of the names. I mean, Patty Burr, one thing I learned about her, well I learned a few things, but uh 60 wins, 15 majors. She claims to have done over 16,000 clinics, many with Will you worked with her. The thing I didn't know about her, and perhaps you knew this fella, that she was at one point sponsored by Joe Gemstick. Did you know Joe?

Kathy Whitworth 38:15

Uh no, I know of the name, yes. Um uh and um I know who you're talking about, and uh out of Chicago. And uh and they were great friends. Um but I don't know that much about the connection. I mean, I can't really speak to it, so but uh one thing about Patty, and when I signed with Wilson, one of the uh uh uh things you had to agree to do was to uh uh go to Fort Myers, Florida, and take uh clinic instruction from Patty for six weeks. And I want you to know that was the best thing, and and Mickey pointed this out later on, because I never really thought about it, but she's absolutely correct. But we do these clinics, and of course, what a blessing that was to be with Patty. She made me a I wasn't real good at a lot of things or better than a lot of things, but I was a real good trap player. And uh Patty made me a better trap player. So, but anyway, doing these exhibitions, and we'd do 30 or 40 of these a year. Um you'd have to, you know, um execute, talk about it, talk about the clubs and the shots, and and then you'd have to execute them, you know, we'd have to demonstrate a hook and a slice and a high ball, and talk about the clubs, uh what club to use for that kind of shot, and blah, blah, blah. So when we went back and picked up on the tour after doing some of these exhibitions and stuff, um you sort of it just sort of, yeah, I don't, it wasn't a a mind thing. I mean, sometimes things happen, and it just you remember like uh playing, you know, the first win, the second win, a mind-changing or career-changing thing, but it was just something that just you just got in the habit of because you if you had a good lie, uh you could pretty much hit any shot you, you know, you if you had a because you could execute it, you had the confidence, I guess is what I'm getting to, to pull off shot. Yeah, you know, and and uh I think I told you I've I used to vote on best trouble player, best putter, best this. And I got I got best trouble player twice. And I thought, you know, I didn't know if I was in trouble all that much, but I but um I could get out of trouble. And uh this is the thing that um uh I think that was what because I thanks to Harvey, I was able to reroute my my swing and and um uh take it outside, inside, or you know, whatever I needed to do to so I always knew if I had a backswing I could probably get out of trouble. And uh a lot of girls, and I'll tell you to this day still boggles my mind. I was playing with one of our a good player, and we were um uh teamed up to play in this event, and um she hit it off in the trees and and kind of and uh but she had a path to the to the green, but she did there was a little s stubby stump right behind her ball. Uh she had to maneuver her on her back swing. And she asked me to come over and look at it, and I said, Well, I said, Well, just take a four, because we had four irons back then, uh, four or five or four or three iron, just to hoot it a little bit and drag it inside and give it a shove. I said, You can probably get it on the green because there wasn't anything in front of her and hard pant. And uh she didn't have to elevate it or anything. And she says, Well, I can't do that. I said, Well, yeah, you can. I said, just take this club and drag it to the inside and give it a shove coming through. And she says, I can't reround my swing. She could only take it back one way. Well, I that was just such an eye-opener to me, uh, because I thought everybody could do that. And um I just said, Well, do the best you can and walked off because I didn't know what else to tell her. But anyway, uh so that made me also appreciate the fact that uh what Harvey gave me, and they they now talk about I hear I get amused at some of the announcers now, they're talking about soft arms. Yeah, and uh and that all boils down to this everybody gets a little stiffened up and everything. And uh, but Harvey, by giving me the grip that I got that he gave me, I've always had loose arms. And that's why I could take that club anywhere I wanted uh and come through, and I always knew where the club was. And um and Jack, Jack had loose arms. I mean, you know, he just if you just visualize how Jack swung the club, Sam's neat. And um, and Sam and I uh we got to be good friends later on, and I got the real pleasure to get to know Gene Sarazon really well. So I I I really was um that was really a fun thing. But I got to play with Sam in the team thing, but he was still, you know, a great ball striker, and um so I really enjoyed playing with him. But he had and you know, you just think of when they say loose arms, I think, you know, what are you talking about? And um, but then I get to thinking about what what uh Harvey gave me, and and I think to this day, that's why I don't have uh I don't have injury. um my back or shoulders or you know maybe my knees a little bit but that's just walking I think a lot but uh you know but and hitting a lot of balls and using your legs um and Harvey another thing Harvey taught me and I don't think they do it as much as they should is that um uh he taught me the weight shift and um and that's so crucial uh um I think because you take it back and you shift that weight and it took me a while I mean he had to work with me on that but I finally got it and of course the downswing was this the weight shift back to the left and and Jack will he always has said that he got his power from his legs and that's true. And when you think of and when you think of Jack he's he and he may not like that but he's got short arms that's why he took the club outside and he says that he said I had to have more more arc and so that's why he kind of took the club more to the outside but when he when he shifted his weight when it came back he the left heel hits the ground first and then that drops everything back into position and that's why he was always back in the right position when he came down. Same thing with me and so uh I take the club a little outside but on the downswing the uh the weight shift would take it first and then and then the the arms and the club would follow so uh I think that was and that's how you get a lot of club head speed uh they're coming through there and so and also control the club uh and I think Jack made this comment and I thought yeah I've done that before like on the downswing he said yeah I could feel I was coming gonna be coming in a little bit one way or another and he adjusted and one of the players said how do you do that he said well yeah I could feel the club up here and uh um and I could do it and I could feel if I knew if I was coming down I'm gonna hook it or if I knew a thing I was gonna fade it I could adjust maybe not hit it great but I could adjust to make it sure that I didn't hit it in trouble or hit it out of bounds or in the water or whatever. So Ron Seric did a interview with me um about four or five years ago maybe or maybe longer now. Anyway I was reading the article and you know he was very nice very kind and and and I was reading about and he said well said not only did she win 88 tournaments but she finished second 95 times.

Mike Gonzalez 46:45

And I said I said gosh Ron mother possessed you to go back and check I said I don't know who's who's who's counting seconds and uh he just said well I was checking your record and he said I kept seeing your name uh in second place and so he he went back and uh and started counting up uh how many times I finished seconds I said I said but anyway this one guy says okay so you won 88 times but you lost ninety five and I thought well okay that's the way to look at thank you for listening to another episode of for the good of the game that's when McCann and please wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify if you like what you hear please subscribe spread the word and tell your friends until we see that again